Why major companies are backing product-level carbon accounting

Lindsey Hall I'm Lindsey Hall.

And I'm Esther Wheeldon.

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Welcome to All Things Sustainable, a podcast from S and P Global. As your hosts, we'll dive into all the sustainability topics that are reshaping the business world.

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Join us every Friday for in depth analysis and interviews with leaders from around the globe. Together, we'll break down big sustainability headlines and cut through the jargon.

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Esther let's start today's episode with some exciting news. Over the past several years, we've brought you coverage from big sustainability events around the globe. From New York, London, Paris, Houston, Dubai, Singapore, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, Montreal well, today I am thrilled to announce that All Things Sustainable will be the official podcast of Climate Week Zurich May 4th through 9th. This is the inaugural year that Zurich is hosting Climate Week and I'm excited we'll be bringing you perspective from Switzerland's largest city. We'll include a link in our show notes if you'd like to learn more about Climate Week Zurich in today's episode,

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we're talking to Amy Brachio. Amy is CEO of a new industry led group called Carbon Measures. It launched in October 2025 with the backing of big companies like oil and gas giant ExxonMobil and Spanish bank Santander. The coalition calls for product level carbon intensity standards to help enable a ledger based carbon accounting framework.

1:08

Okay, Esther, you know we like to define terms on this show, so let's break it down for our audience. What is carbon accounting and what is a ledger based framework?

1:28

In simple terms, carbon accounting is a system for calculating carbon emissions associated with products, companies and countries. Carbon accounting tracks the source of emissions by entity and the level of emissions produced as companies create their products. A ledger system gives companies and suppliers a way to calculate and track the carbon emissions of their product at each step of its life cycle.

1:37

And what about a product level carbon intensity standard?

1:59

So basically this sets a maximum level of emissions that are allowed per unit of a product, for example CO2 per ton of steel or per watt of electricity.

2:02

I'll also note here that our colleagues at S and P Global Energy are actively engaged in the carbon accounting space and regularly share their views with industry and governments. Among other efforts. S and P Global Energy is an independent knowledge partner to the expert panel at Carbon Measures, so hopefully this all helps set the scene for my conversation with Amy. We'll hear today about Carbon Measures goals, its membership and its future plans. I also asked Amy about some of the pushback the group has received. We heard a little about this in last week's episode with the Greenhouse Gas Protocol or GHG protocol. We'll include a link to that episode in our show Notes. Okay, here's Amy, who starts off explaining the impetus for the coalition.

2:11

So carbon measures was put together because a number of companies came together and said that we needed to think a little bit differently with respect to what it would take to drive down carbon emissions at the pace that we need. And so when these organizations looked at what was slowing things down, a big aspect was demand for low carbon emission products and solutions. And so if you think about it, I'm sure you've talked to a number of CEOs where either they're the CEO of a startup and they have an amazing innovation that could help drive the actions we need, but they can't find sufficient investors on the other side because they can't say who would buy their product and at what scale. And the same things happen when large corporates look to invest in all of the things we need them to invest in to drive down emissions. But if you don't have enough people buying your product, we're not going to see the pace of change we need. And so that's the problem that we're looking to solve. And so then how we look at it is you need the data at the granular level and with the level of precision to be able to differentiate a product that's higher in carbon emissions relative to one that's lower. And then you need laws in place that give companies a target that they need to hit. And so we would advocate for product intensity standards that say if you're going to sell into our market, you cannot exceed a certain level of product intensity. And we think you put those two things together and that's going to allow what businesses do best, because they'll have to innovate and compete to be able to serve the markets they want to serve.

2:50

So take me a little more behind the scenes. What was the impetus for starting this group in late 2025?

4:32

So we launched with 19 companies, and we have companies that are from around the world and across different sectors. So we have companies like Banco Santander from the financial sector. We've got Bayer, we've got BASF and Air Liquide and Nucor Steel Steel and Exxon Mobil and Honeywell and so many others. And then we've got new clients joining. And so since our launch, we've had four additional members join. And so we've got bank of America and we've got Total Energy and Anew. And then shortly after this, we'll be hearing about an auto manufacturer who's joining as well. And we're looking to continue to expand. And so essentially what happened was carbon accounting has been talked about for a really long time and the fact that we need this data to be able to drive this product differentiation. But a lot of things were happening on their own, right? So individual companies were looking at how to calculate carbon emissions associated with their products. And then you had different academics looking at it and different standard setters looking at it. But the problem is, if you think about it in the context of financial statements, if everyone had their own way of calculating net income, how could you compare across what these CEOs came together and thought about is we know there's demand out there for carbon accounting at the product level, but if we don't come together to get something that's generally accepted and widely adopted, it's not going to serve the purpose we need it to serve. And so that was about a year ago in January, that those discussions really started in earnest. Some companies came together and said, we're going to drive forward the standup of the coalition. I got hired late summer and started In September and October 20th we launched and here we are.

4:39

So talk to me a little more about the ultimate goals of the organization.

6:40

So I like to start well out in the future because then I think you can come back to then what it is that we need to accomplish. So one thing that's important to recognize is that for carbon measures, we are not looking to exist into perpetuity. We have a mandate and a job we want to get done, and then we want to make sure that we're able to enable others to enact it. So we're not a standard setter, we're not a government, but we think we can be a business catalyst to get into place the change that needs to take place. And so with that mindset, when we look out five to seven years from now, what success looks like to us is that we've got a widely adopted carbon accounting framework that allows for comparability and for the emissions to be tracked over the value chain. It can be verifiable. It's all based in science and that that's how companies around the world measure carbon intensity. And we hope that multiple major markets around the world have adopted carbon intensity standards. And we think if you see those two things in place, we start to see more rapid pace of decline of carbon emissions. So if you look at that, we have a lot of work to do in not that long of a period of time. And so the first thing that we did was we kicked off a partnership with the International Chamber of Commerce focused on the development of the accounting framework. And we put out a call for interest in bringing together all the technical experts that we need in order to get this done around the accounting framework development. And then the work of the panel will start in March. And so watch for research that underpins a analysis of what exists today, what has really been successful with what exists today, and then what have been the impediments to adoption at scale that we need to address, and more information about how we think the accounting framework needs to be approached.

6:46

Okay. I had a look at your Carbon Measures website before our conversation and one thing it said is it talks about the goal of driving market based solutions to reduce emissions at the lowest cost. How do you achieve those lower costs? Can you talk to me about that a little bit?

8:51

Yeah, absolutely. And that's where competition comes into play. And so if you have a target that you have to hit and these companies have to innovate to be able to win in the market, you know, you win based on different factors. And one of the factors you win based on is price. But what it does is it levels out the playing field for the products that have to be developed alongside the actions that need to be taken to reduce emissions. So our hope is, with the scale that will need to be developed, that you'll have the scale to drive down cost.

9:06

We're having this conversation mid January. Anything you can tell me today about what you've learned so far about the hurdles to that adoption?

9:37

Yeah, so. And I wouldn't even say that I've simply learned it since Carbon Measures because we were working with a lot of organizations in my prior life at EY as well. And so one of the things is that there are a lot of different ways to think about this. And a lot of very smart people have been thinking about how you do carbon accounting at the product level. And so one of the things that we need to be is really someone who convenes all of these smart thinkers to get to consensus. Because if we don't get to consensus on an approach, then we're going to continue to live in a world where you can't compare across. And I do think that's always hard. Right. Because good work has been done into the thinking about what's been done to date. And so now to say, okay, let's get to one way to think about things will be challenging. The other thing I was going to say is just something that we're really cognizant of, but I think is something we have to watch out for is if you look at the pace of change of technology, we wanna put into place something that is fit for purpose several years from now. Right. And so one of the things that we have looked at on the expert panel is having someone from the onset who is deep in sustainability reporting and AI, so that as we're developing this, we're really challenging ourselves. And then I think the last obstacle is just that a lot of work has been done and a lot of money has been spent in getting into place systems that operate. And so we have to be really clear as to what is the benefit of what we're talking about to organizations and the world, because it will take some work to get this implemented at scale.

9:47

What kinds of stakeholders or industries stand to benefit the most from what you're describing, this goal of carbon accounting at the product level. And then on the flip side, are there any stakeholder groups that are opposed to this kind of development or see this as something they don't want to happen?

11:35

Yeah. So with respect to who stands to benefit, I really hope that the answer to that is that the world stands to benefit. Right. Because the reason why we were stood up is to increase the pace of reduction in carbon emissions. And so if ultimately we don't achieve that goal, we will not have been successful. Now your question, I mean, we are a business led coalition, right. And so the question is, when you think about it through the lens of business, who stands to benefit from this? And so when I look at the common thread across the organizations that have come together, it is companies that have a strong commitment to sustainability and reduction in carbon emissions, that have made investments over time, but have been in the situation where the demand is not out there for their products at a profitable price point that allows them to continue the investment and to deliver on the commitment to sustainability that they want to deliver on. These are for profit entities and so they are beholden to shareholders. And so they need to make sure that they're delivering that long term return, financial return that shareholders expect. And so for those organizations that have really invested in this space, they're going to have the market demand for their products which allows them to thrive for years to come. And I was talking to a colleague recently and one of the things that they raised is that today there's not a lot of incentive to overperform your competition with respect to your reduction in carbon emissions. And so a lot of the reporting allows for estimates and I understand why? From a reporting standpoint, if you're looking at enterprise level data, it's perfectly fine to have estimates. Right. But what then happens though is those organizations that outperform their competition, they don't necessarily get recognized in their business performance or their stock value. And their data benefits the whole industry in resulting in improving the estimates. And so their competitors who aren't investing and performing the same way actually get the benefit of those who are outperforming. And I think that who I hope really benefits from this is that those who have the commitment to outperform what the standards are in place for carbon emission reduction.

11:54

I think what you're describing makes a lot of sense in the context of, of something we've been hearing a lot on this podcast, which is sustainability stakeholders across industries are telling us that they're under pressure to tie their financial performance to their sustainability strategy or show the ROI of their sustainability strategy. And I think that sort of pragmatic approach is where we're at at the start of 2026.

14:30

Yeah. And to some extent we're trying to flip that on its head and say we're going to drive the demand for these types of products and services. And when the demand is there, then you have to innovate and compete because if your products aren't lower emissions, they're not going to sell at the same pace as your competitors.

14:56

And what is the business case here for some of your members who are the world's largest oil and gas companies? Talk to me about their perspective insofar as you can.

15:16

Yeah, and I wouldn't represent any one member, but as you said, we've got oil and gas companies as well as a lot of the harder to abate sectors who are members of ours. So for many of them, you can ask the same question. Again, I draw you back to this common thread with respect to these are organizations that have invested heavily in low carbon emission solutions. And so the benefit for them is that they get to have demand for the products that they've invested in. But I also think that one of the things that is part of our principles is that we're technology agnostic. And so what we're looking at are what are the emissions results? Right. And that's what it is that we want to measure and that's what it is that where we want regulation in place. And so by looking at it that way, if you're able to come up with very high efficacy carbon capture technology, then you get the benefit for that in the calculation. And so we're not necessarily differentiating between how you get to lower carbon emissions. We're just saying you have to get to lower carbon emissions. And I think that for companies that are really confident in their ability to innovate and compete, they feel like if you set a target for us, bring it and we'll get there and we'll beat the competition in doing it.

15:28

I had this conversation with amy in mid January 2026 and later that month a group of business, finance and climate leaders released a joint statement calling for stronger, more aligned carbon accounting standards to accelerate decarbonization.

16:56

I'm going to read you a part of the statement. It said, quote, product accounting assigns emissions to each step in a product's life cycle, including the use phase. Recent proposals to elevate product level accounting, including E ledger approaches, are often motivated by a desire to improve traceability, comparability and operational efficiency across complex supply chains. These motivations reflect legitimate frustrations with fragmentation and data gaps, but they do not remove the need for a robust shared corporate accounting framework that anchors shared accountability along the whole value chain. Progress on climate hinges on both accounting and accountability. Accounting informs decisions. Accountability drives decarbonization. Later on, that statement specifically mentions carbon measures. It says, we therefore call on new initiatives, including efforts such as carbon Measures, to engage as contributors to the current GHG protocol ISO Working Group on Product Carbon Accounting, bringing forward their proposals to strengthen existing product accounting and as an important complement to corporate accounting.

17:09

That ISO working group, by the way, is a partnership GH2 protocol announced with the International Organization for Standardization in 2025. I wanted to hear Amy's response to this joint statement, so I followed up with her in February to ask, how is carbon measures thinking about this idea that it should be working with the existing GHG protocol and existing standards rather than creating something new? Here's her reply.

18:12

Yeah, so I think first of all, all attention is good and we really welcome skepticism. I trained as a certified public accountant and healthy skepticism is a good thing as well as constructive criticism and constructive dialogue. And so a lot of what this attention has allowed us to do is help put the spotlight on the need for more market enabling innovation and new solutions. And so what I mean by that is that it's really important when we have this constructive dialogue to start with, what is the problem that we're trying to solve? And as we've discussed, that problem is unlocking demand. And so then you look at what is required to unlock demand, which is different than what is required from a reporting standpoint. And so when we get this kind of feedback, what it really allows us to do is foster that type of dialogue. I don't think that this needs to be polarizing. And so I think that there's so much that is agreed upon that it helps to open the dialogue around, okay, what do we agree upon? And then where do we see the gap that we're looking to fill? And that gap is really, how do you get to the data that's required for product differentiation? And so I don't think that in filling gaps you're driving fragmentation, but we welcome the dialogue and we welcome the healthy and constructive conversations to be sure that everything that we do to help drive down emissions is better and what we needed in order to drive the change.

18:36

So that's very helpful context. And, and in this joint statement, it's urging policymakers to strengthen and evolve existing global frameworks rather than what they call fragment carbon counting into parallel approaches that risk slowing the transition to net zero. Can you say a little bit more about that?

20:18

Yeah. So I think this, I don't think that what this is doing is fragmentation. I think that what this is doing is filling a piece of the puzzle of what it's going to take to drive down emissions at scale, scale and pace. And I do think that is one of the areas in which we've got very significant alignment across these groups that are focused on this issue. When I think about what we're trying to do is we're trying to innovate in a different way than where innovation has been focused before. And so if you think about a lot of the focus of innovation to date, it has been on what are the products that are needed to decarbonize. What we haven't focused innovation around is what are the systemic changes that need to be in place in order to make those products wildly successful. And so we're looking at how do you unlock the demand such that the products that we need to be sold lower carbon emission steel, lower carbon emission fuels, lower carbon emission cement, are able to be sold in a way that is profitable for the organizations such that they continue to drive the investment and the scale that we need. And so if what we were trying to do is design another reporting structure, then I think that concern about fragmentation is understandable. But what we're trying to do is provide data that's an enabler to both the market so that you can differentiate your product and to regulators. And when we get into the healthy discussion, then I think that difference in the fact that we're trying to fill a gap really comes out.

20:36

Thank you for clarifying. Has this joint statement or has any of the sort of skepticism in the media made your job more difficult, or has that changed any of the way that you're approaching the work that you've set out to do?

22:16

I wouldn't say that it's made the job more difficult, because part of my job as CEO is to make sure that I'm building awareness and building bridges. And so these are conversations that have to be had, and I'd rather we have them out in the open. And so I see it as probably not unexpected and something that I need to do in my role.

22:31

Thank you. Amy, is there anything that I haven't asked that you feel is important to address based on feedback you've been receiving or things that you've been navigating?

22:52

So one of the things that we get asked a lot is around different positions taken by our membership. And so when we look at what our mandate is, our mandate is all around aligning market incentives to the actions that need to be taken to drive down emissions. And we do that through the carbon accounting at a product level that's required and advocating for the regulation that we think is required. Our membership base continues to grow, and our members are going to have a wide variety of opinions on different topics, and that just is what it is. But where there's absolute alignment is what our mission is and how we get that done. And so I think as our membership grows, that's going to continue to be more and more visible to others.

23:01

So Amy said she does not see Carbon Measures work as causing fragmentation. Rather, she said, it's a puzzle piece the group is trying to fill with data that enables companies to differentiate their product to the market and to regulators. She said there's room for healthy dialogue. And incidentally, we heard something similar from our GHG Protocol guests on last week's podcast episode. When I asked him about Carbon Measures, he told me, quote, I actually do see an opportunity for collaboration and opportunity for building on existing architecture, end quote. Now, in my initial interview with Amy, she talked a lot about the importance of collaboration. At the start of 2026, however, the world is seeing a trend toward fragmentation and fracturing and away from multilateralism. And that was even before the US And Israeli attacks on Iran. I asked Amy how the geopolitical landscape is impacting the work Carbon Measures is undertaking. Here she is again in our January interview.

23:50

So there's a lot happening in the world that has an impact on the work that we're trying to do. So I'd say the geopolitical landscape, also economic conditions, right. We're at a time of, you know, there's been high inflation for quite some time. People are worried about work with respect to, to the role of AI and the impact that will have on jobs. And people are concerned about affordability. And all of those things play in to what we're looking to do. And when I think about it, our members are global in nature, and we were set up to be global in nature. And so the complex reality of it all is that we all have to operate in this environment and these companies sell into different markets. So they've got to be able to have, in our example, the data that underpins their global trade. And so how I think about it is that we have to be extraordinarily aware of everything that's going on and the pressure points and how it will impact what we're trying to accomplish. But we are really focused on what is the problem that we're trying to solve and how we're trying to solve it. And I want to be dogmatic about our focus on that. And so we have to deliver on what we're looking to deliver, be aware of what's happening around us, but not let it get us distracted.

24:41

So is there anything in your first couple of months in the CEO role that has been an aha moment? Any conversations that you've been part of that were really enlightening for you?

26:05

I think my AHA was when, you know, when I had, when I agreed to take on the role, I had to interview with multiple CEOs and they all told me, this is hard, this is going to take a lot of work, but we have your backs. And I know we're in early days and I talked about continuing that engagement. But what has been really motivating to me and inspiring to me is the level of commitment of these companies to achieving this mandate. And when we go back to the mandate, it is reducing carbon emissions through business action. And so I do feel like while it's a big ambitious task that we've laid out, I feel optimistic about our ability to get it done given the backing we've got and the interest we have in more members coming on board.

26:18

So interesting that you're sort of path into this role was a bunch of CEOs being like, this is going to be really hard. And you're like, yeah, I'm all in on this.

27:08

One of them. It was so funny because we had just a really interesting conversation. And I'll say when you're looking for a job at my stage of my career. I asked as many questions of them as they asked of me. And one of them said, you know this is going to be a slog, right? And I said, yes, I do. But I will tell you it hasn't. Even though there's a lot to get done, we have a big ambitious agenda. It actually hasn't felt like a slog yet. I'm sure there will be days when it does, but I'm excited to take it.

27:18

On our regular podcast, listeners know we love to ask our CEO guests about their career path. I asked Amy about the steps that led her to the CEO role.

27:52

I spent 30 years of my career, if you count my time since my internship with ey. And EY is just an amazing place to have a career. And the common thread across everything that I did was that it really brought together market opportunity and purpose. And so I did a lot of work in consumer protection and banking, work in resilience, work in cybersecurity, and it actually led me to work in sustainability. And what I loved about it was that it was revenue generating free y. And I think that if you're going to focus on something and it doesn't drive revenue, it's not durable, right? And so that was an important piece of it. It provided really meaningful work for our people where they wanted to get engaged in the work and we were delivering benefit beyond revenue generation, right? Benefits to communities and benefits to society. So that was always something that I really enjoyed. And in the past year, I had two sort of personal milestones that the one was the hitting the 30 years. I kept thinking, if I want to have impact of what I do next, what am I waiting for, right? And so There was the 30 year aspect and then there was that our younger daughter graduated from undergrad. So there was something a little bit freeing in no longer having those tuition bills. And so I decided that I wanted to do something impact oriented. And when I first let EY know that I was going to retire, I had no idea what I was going to do. I had gone through do I want to sit on boards of directors and teach? And because impact was really the top thing I was looking at, I decided that my skills would be best applied in a business alliance against something that would have a positive impact on society. And so then when this came my way and it put together, I am a certified public accountant, so I put together my accounting skills with my sustainability skills. I just thought it was too great of an opportunity to pass up.

28:01

I Wanted to end our conversation on a forward looking note. So I asked Amy what's on carbon measures roadmap for 2026 and beyond. Here she is again.

30:08

So when I think about what I need to do and how carbon measures will be successful, the first thing is we need the right membership base. And so if we've got a really strong membership base, it's going to give us the heft and access to the right skills and capabilities to get this bold ambition done. So that's the first thing. The second thing is you've got to have the right team. So if you don't have the right team, this is hard work, right? We're not going to be able to get the work done. So building up the team and then it's the work itself. And the work itself is related to the development of the accounting framework, the development of what does good look like for product intensity standards and then for each of these big product groups, what should the intensity standards be? How do you do those calculations? And then lastly the public policy that underpins all of it. Because if we don't have a strong public policy strategy, then none of this gets done. And so the first thing that we kicked off was the work with the International Chamber of Commerce for the accounting framework development and then we're looking to kick off the product standards work soon and our public policy strategy associated with both.

30:16

Amy, I've asked you a lot of questions today, but what have I not asked that you'd like to get across to our audience?

31:23

We talked a lot about all of the positives and I think anytime you enter into something where you are looking to drive impact in this purpose space, there can be questions about the role that business has to play. And is business going to drive something that's going to have the positive outcome that we want it to have? And so for anyone who's maybe skeptical with respect to the role the business can play on topics like this, my only ask of them is just to be really curious about what we're doing and to keep an eye on us. We're going to be very transparent about the actions that we take and I welcome discussions about the approach that we're taking to reduce emissions.

31:29

So today we heard why Carbon Measures was started by a coalition of companies that saw demand as the main bottleneck to decarbonization. Amy explained how the group aims to use granular product level carbon data plus product intensity standards so buyers can distinguish between high and low emission products and drive market demand for cleaner options.

32:09

Amy said Carbon Measures is focused on expanding its membership, building a strong internal team, finalizing the accounting framework, defining product intensity standards for key product groups, and advancing a public policy strategy. And all that needs to happen while navigating geopolitical tensions, economic uncertainty, and concerns about AI and affordability.

32:27

These are all topics we'll be hearing about more at the upcoming saraweek Energy Conference that S and P Global hosts in Houston March 23 to 27, so please stay tuned. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of All Things Sustainable. If you like what you heard, please subscribe, share and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.

32:48

And a special thanks to our agency partner, The199. See you next time.

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Sa.

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