Neil Bradley on Tariffs and Small Business, Paul Gillingham on Mexico’s Cartel Crisis

Westwood One presents America at Night. Here's your host, McGraw-Milhaven. Hey, good evening everybody. Welcome to the show once again. And we've just put a lid on what we hope to be an interesting show for you each and every night. We try and bring you interesting topics from across America, hence the name America at Night. Coming up, hour number three. We'll take your phone calls and your text messages. In hour number two, we're going to talk to a professor at Northwestern University who wrote a book about Mexico that was considered one of the best nonfiction books of 2025. And we're going to talk about the cartels and what's going on in Mexico and why is it the 15th largest economy in the world and yet they have so many problems. That's going to go up in hour number two. Really looking forward to that. But this first hour, we have a chance to talk with a gentleman who is the Executive Vice President and Chief Policy Officer for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Neil Bradley joins us. Neil, welcome to America at Night. McGraw, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me on. Lots to talk about tonight. But before we talk about the future, I want to talk about the past for a second. Because as we all know, small businesses are the lifeblood of this country. And we all agree, but we've done a really interesting job of really sticking it to small businesses over the last 20 years or so. And not always anyone's fault, but if you just take a look at the last 20, 25 years of life in America, they've had to deal with 9-11, they've had to deal with the financial crisis, then they had to deal with COVID, then the uncertainty of all the tariffs. And to be a small business, Neil Bradley, talk for a minute about the trials and tribulations. You know, Amazon's going to be fine. Facebook is going to be fine. But the mom and pop shops, man, they live and die every single day with things like that. Talk about them for a minute. Yeah, they do. You're exactly right. You know, I grew up in a small business household. My parents were both small business owners. And, you know, I learned kind of firsthand as a kid watching them figure out how you navigate all the complexities of running a business and meeting customer demand on top of having to often navigate government and all these externalities like the ones that you just mentioned. And, you know, you're right. The Amazons have teams of lawyers that they can call and accountants and people who can help them figure out all of these things. If you're a small business owner, you're staying up at night trying to figure it out on your own. And so that's one of the reasons that the U.S. Chamber, we're so passionate about things like deregulation, things like lower tariffs, because we know that the burden falls heaviest on those small businesses. And so it's something that we really have to figure out how to do a better job of addressing, because honestly, I think for a lot of small businesses, it's been getting worse, not better. Yeah, let's start there. President Trump gave the State of the Union address last night. Give us the state of small businesses in America today in 2026. Well, here's the interesting thing. Given even with all the headwinds that we've talked about, economic uncertainty, tariffs, the changing environment with AI regulations, they were really burdensome, particularly in the last administration. Small businesses are incredibly optimistic and upbeat. We happen to poll them at the U.S. Chamber. You know, they get up every day and they're taking on these challenges and they're saying, we can find solutions. You know, one of my favorite stats, actually, of recent memory is that last year in America, we set a record number of new business starts. So last year, a record number of people raised their hand, went down, filed paperwork, and said, I'm starting a small business. You know, not one of those people, I bet, said, I'm really pessimistic about the future. I really don't see any opportunities. I really think this is going to fail, and I'm going to lose my shirt and my house, but I'm going to do it anyway. What they all said is, I'm going to figure it out, and I'm going to figure out how to win in this system. And so even with these headwinds, it's just really remarkable the optimism that they bring. And I hope it can be more infectious for the rest of us in the country. Let's talk about some of those headwinds. Tariffs, which seems to be such a major conversation, especially with the Supreme Court decision last week. How detrimental has that been to small businesses? Well, let's look at some of the numbers. There are about 240,000 small business importers in the United States. Some of these are stores that are importing goods that they then sell. Some of them are wholesalers. They're importing and selling to other stores. Some of them are manufacturers. They may be manufacturing things here in America, but they need one particular part that they source from overseas. Those 240,000 businesses over the course of a year under the higher tariff levels will pay about an extra $200 billion in federal tariffs. That's a $200 billion tax increase on these small businesses. And so they have really tight margins. They really don't have the ability to force other people in the supply chain to eat these costs. And so they're having to eat them themselves or pass along those higher tariff costs in the form of higher prices, which, of course, can make them less competitive in the marketplace. So the people who've been hurt the most by these tariffs are America's small businesses. Yeah, that's an interesting part. Have you seen, because we get conflicting reports, some businesses eat the cost. Some businesses have tried to eat the cost, right? Some businesses have said going forward, we can't eat the cost going forward. So, I mean, where are we? I mean, how much have the businesses eaten the cost of the tariffs, and what percentage have had to pass it on? Do we have any idea? Yeah, so it completely varies from business to business, and sometimes can vary within a business. I was talking to a small business owner actually this morning, and they had their business imports products, kind of home goods type items, and they sell through two channels. They sell direct to consumers online, and they sell to a number of other small businesses on Main Street who then sell to the customers. They looked at their books and they looked at their numbers and they said, we can't afford to raise the prices that we are selling direct to consumers online on. So they kept those the same and they passed all the tariff increases on to the other small businesses that they're selling to, which, of course, meant that this was compounding through that part of their business. So it's a good example of why it's so hard to get really good numbers about how much has been passed along and to whom. But the folks who look at this think that about 60% to 70% of the cost of tariffs have been passed along to consumers, but that that number will continue to grow over the course of the year. You also just explained the multiplying effect, right? I mean, every time a part comes in from a different country and you manufacture something here, that part gets a tariff on it. And then, of course, right, so you have three or four different tariffs on the parts, and then you put it here, and then you sell it somewhere else, and then you're going to hold back this, but you're going to send it over there. That's the multiplying effects. That's what's sort of so invasive with these tariffs. That's exactly right. Yeah, they just keep compounding and compounding, and there's no relief in sight. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's why it's been especially hard for manufacturers. So, you know, the theory that some espoused was that tariffs are going to help manufacturers. Well, most manufacturers in America are also importers. And so they're often the ones who are hit the hardest with these tariffs because of the supply chain effects that you just described so well. So I think that's one of the reasons that, you know, if you look at manufacturing employment over the course of the last year, it actually went down, not up. And so we ought to begin to rethink these tariffs if our goal is to help American manufacturing. Neil Bradley is our guest. He is an executive vice president and chief policy officer with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. We're focusing on small businesses this hour. He also was the deputy chief of staff for Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, and he was the policy director for our old friend in the House of Representatives with Roy Blunt. So he's got some good stock behind him. Neil Bradley is our guest. Stay right there. More with him. Text message your questions. Do you have any questions for Neil Bradley and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce? 1-844-2-Mcgraw, 1-844-262-4729. I'll try and work them into the conversation. America at Night, back in a moment. From the heart of America, this is America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven. This is America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is the mouthpiece for business in America, and Neil Bradley is their executive vice president. We're talking with him all hour long. Welcome back. Neil Bradley, let me ask you about artificial intelligence, because forget the whole morality side of things about what it's doing to social media and things. Let's talk about it in terms of small businesses. Is AI in the U.S. Chamber of Commerce going to be helpful for business, hurtful for businesses, and what are you seeing? We think it's going to be helpful. And, in fact, it's especially going to be helpful for America's small businesses. In fact, we just completed a survey of small businesses, 250 employees or less, so all the way down to companies that just have one or two employees. And what they report is that 58% of them are already using generative AI in their business operations. And they are using it to become more efficient and more competitive. And by the way, as it has allowed them to expand their businesses, they're also expanding headcount. Of those, over 50% are already using generative AI. 81% actually added employees in the past year. So when we talk to these small businesses, we actually hear fascinating stories about how they are using AI in really creative and innovative ways. It's interesting that they're adding jobs because everything you read says that AI is going to destroy jobs. Yeah, that's right. And, you know, I'm reminded of the episode in the late 80s, early 90s when ATMs, the automatic teller machines, were first being introduced. And bank tellers, because back then before the ATMs, you went to the bank and there was a person who took your deposit or gave your withdrawal. Bank tellers were actually protesting on the streets of New York to try to keep ATMs from being introduced because they were worried about their jobs. They ultimately failed. Of course, ATMs came in. And an astonishing thing happened. The number of people working in the front of banks actually increased because what banks figured out was that they could open more locations, those bank tellers could provide different services, and we ended up employing more people at the same time that we got the convenience of ATMs. So sometimes these new technologies don't work out the way that particularly a lot of the folks who are fearful of them predict. Yeah, certainly understandable. I mean, every time a new technology is introduced, there's job disruption. You would agree that there's going to be some people who study to become a software developer whose skills are not going to be needed in the open market. Yeah, or at least the skills in the way that they're currently using them, right? And so it may be that rather than being the software developer who's actually entering the keystrokes, you become the parameter designer and the tester for the software that is developed by AI. So these things are incredibly hard to predict. You're right. They're disruptive. And so it doesn't mean that things are always going to be the same. And some people are going to be displaced. Some people are going to have to learn new skills. But all kinds of new jobs are also going to be created. And in particular, where we see the biggest opportunity for that is these small businesses. You know, you and I were talking just before the break about how small businesses are so heavily impacted by regulations, and they don't have teams of lawyers to help them figure out all these government edicts. Well, with AI, they can actually use that to help them figure out all these government edicts and rules without going out and hiring those lawyers that they couldn't hire anyway because they couldn't afford it. So all of a sudden, a small business owner can become more efficient, more compliant, can understand the rules, and that's just going to make them a stronger business. So I think there's lots of really unique ways that this is going to help. You're not insinuating that artificial intelligence is going to create more lawyers, are you? I hope that's not the case. You may displace some of the lawyers. Well, that's good. That's a good thing. Yeah. For all those people who can't afford lawyers, it's going to give them an alternative, which is going to be pretty nice. And in that same vein, on the positive side of AI, you have to assume it will free up a lot of people who don't have the capital to start small businesses. It costs money to – for every yin, there's a yang. I have to pay someone to create a website. Well, if artificial intelligence can do it for me and I can start a website and start selling online, the barrier to being a small business has just gotten smaller. Oh, absolutely. And that's exactly what small businesses tell us they're doing. So, you know, it's a restaurant who has figured out how to adjust their menu on a daily basis based on the food inventory they have to both optimize the use of the food that they have in the pantry for what they're making, but also give them the ability to introduce new dishes on a daily basis. One of the barriers, even if you could figure that out before AI, is someone's got to go redesign the menu every day. Well, with AI, you know, a few clicks, a few keystrokes, and it can print out professional, newly designed menus. And so the efficiency, the ability to the things that you would have had to outsource or the frictions that you would have had to overcome, you know, AI just solves them for you. We've got about 30 seconds here, but before we have to break again, Neil Bradley with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, would you like to see, I know this is blasphemy, would you like to see some regulation on AI, or do you want it unfettered and just see where it goes? Yeah, listen, we need smart regulations. We need clear rules that people play by. But the most important thing is we need one national standard. The rules can't change from Missouri to Oklahoma to Texas. We can't allow California to try to write the rules for the rest of the country. This is something that Washington has to figure out, create one set of clear rules that then everyone can operate by. That's Neil Bradley. We've got another segment with him. Interesting conversation. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, he is the Executive Vice President and Chief Policy Officer for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which is the spokesperson and the spokesman and the organization that speaks for small businesses and business here in the U.S. We're getting an interesting look at the world of small businesses. Next hour, we're going to talk about Mexico with a great book that was called one of the 50 or one of the best nonfiction books of 2025 about Mexico. We'll talk about the cartels and all that coming up. Stay right there. Lots more to get to. America at Night. Back in a moment. We'll be right back. A lot of cash. It's so sad what money does to people. It happens. That's why you don't tell anybody what you got. That guy had the brilliant idea. I don't want my relatives to know how much money I have. So every time I go to Thanksgiving, I ask them if I can borrow more. Stealth wealth. Stacking Benjamins. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. Join the nightly conversation, America at Night, with McGraw-Milhaven. U.S. Chamber of Commerce is the topic of conversation today. The Executive Vice President, Chief Policy Officer Neil Bradley joins us for the full hour, and we thank him for his time on a very important topic because small businesses touches every single corner of the United States. Neil, let me ask you about labor, because just anecdotally, every business I talk to, every business person I talk to, they don't have enough workers, whether it's the construction workers, whether it's the guy who makes the pizza down the street, whether it's the construction worker, the home builder, the farmer. We just do not have enough bodies or the bodies we have in this country just don't want to work or don't have found other ways to make money. How much of a problem is the labor issue when it comes to small businesses and the economy here in America? McGraw, I think, is probably the number one issue we've heard about for several years now from small businesses. And so they tell us that they have open positions. They tell us that they're trying to hire. They tell us that they can't even get people to come in to apply for the jobs. And then often people who do apply don't have the skills that they're looking for. So we have both a skills gap problem where people don't have the right skills or the right kind of work temperament to come into these jobs. But we also just have a sheer number problem. And, you know, part of that is demographics. And so, you know, we benefited for, you know, about six decades when baby boomers were just kind of constantly coming into the workforce. Well, now the baby boomers are exiting. 11,000 of them retire every single day. And the demographics younger than the baby boomers just aren't big enough to fill into these jobs and fill this demand. So it's not just hurting small businesses. It's actually holding back economic growth. Somebody, the cynic out there would say, tell the small business to just offer more money. And if you offer more money, somebody will finally come through the door. Yeah, of course. I hope that cynic is willing to pay more for the services that they buy from that small business, because they obviously have to offset those higher labor costs via higher prices. And so even if they were to do that, though, and even if the Senate were willing to pay those higher prices, the fact is that we just don't have enough people. Over the next decade, we're going to have about 5 million fewer people under the age of 24 and about 7 million more people over the age of 65. And retirement is a wonderful thing. My parents retired a few years ago, you know, no longer working. But they're consuming. And, you know, when they want to go out and buy something or go to a restaurant and eat, you know, they're hoping that there's someone there to serve them. As this baby boom generation retires, we're actually going to need more workers to fill into that gap. And it's not a question of pay. It's a question of numbers and demographics. Immigration is such a toxic issue, and it's become so political. And I don't necessarily mean this question to be political, but don't we need some sort of smart immigration policy to figure out the workers we need to give them and vet them so that they can come into this country and work legally and sort of keep out the people who we don't need? I mean, don't we need to sit down and come up with some type of regulation here? That's exactly what we need to do. We need Congress to move on legal immigration reform. You heard the president in the State of the Union last night. He said, I want to welcome people who come here legally and have the best interests of America in mind. Listen, we had a real problem. We weren't controlling who was coming into this country. They were just coming in with no vetting, kind of crossing over. We didn't know who they were. That's not the way the system is supposed to work. So, you know, we should make sure that we know who's coming into this country, but we should make it easier for those who want to come in and who want to contribute and help grow our economy. I mean, you know, if you look at, you know, it's not just in, you know, construction or in tech, you know, in basically every industry, we have benefited from the contributions of immigrants who've come to work and often sometimes to actually start a business and employ other people. Well, I also find it disjointed, right? Because the big tech companies, they can go to India and find a cooter, or doctors can come and train in our world-class hospitals, and yet the landscaper can't go down to Mexico and get a couple workers, right? I mean, it seems like it's just not even in terms of what type of business and or how the business needs what type of worker. Well, you're exactly right about that. And listen, you know, we complain about things being outsourced to other countries. Well, you know, that technology, that programming work, that design work, you know, it's done on a computer. You can send it on a file to somebody somewhere around the world. They can do the work, and the finished product comes back. The roof on your house, you can't send away to someplace in Asia that sends you a replacement roof. Someone has got to go up there and actually fix the hole and replace your roof. And so we ought to be looking to figure out how we have the people we need to do the work that's here in America. And if people want to design and manufacture things here in America, let's encourage people to come here and do that work legally. Let's not push any industry towards having to send that work somewhere else. Neil Bradley with us for a couple more minutes with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. One of the things you point to and the U.S. Chamber points to are frivolous lawsuits. I thought we took care of that, and that was largely fixed. How much of a problem are these lawsuits to small businesses? A huge problem, and a huge problem to consumers. And so we made a lot of reforms 20 years ago, but the trial lawyers have figured out new ways. And so, you know, we used to hear about the person who spilled hot coffee from the McDonald's on their wagon, sued, and kind of that crazy stuff, and, you know, ambulance chasers. One of the latest scams, and I call it a scam because I think that's what it is, hitting small businesses, is these trial lawyers who go through and they'll look at a small business's website, And they'll say, that doesn't meet the recommended requirements for disabled accessibility, and we're going to sue you. And then they offer to settle because they know that you defending yourself will cost more than the settlement. And so all that does, and oftentimes small businesses make the decision to settle because otherwise it would be more costly. All that does is take money out of those small businesses. We see it in auto insurance. Governor DeSantis in Florida just enacted some insurance reforms, auto insurance reforms. And what we're seeing there is auto insurance premiums are coming down on average about 6%. Some auto insurance customers just got rebates because of the reforms in the liability system. And it's not just red states. In Michigan, Governor Whitmer, a Democrat, enacted a smaller subset of reforms and is touting that insurance premiums for the average household have come down $500. These are real savings to our pockets because it means the trial lawyers aren't stealing the money out of our pockets. Do you see some legislation? I mean, they can't agree what day of the week it is in Washington, D.C. Do you think there's some agreement on this? We're working on it, and the truth is it's slow in Washington. We are making more progress in a lot of state capitals, and we're going to keep making progress in state capitals, like Georgia was the one just last year, along with Oklahoma, who enacted reforms. We're keeping pushing. There's, in fact, markups that were occurring at the end of the year in the House Judiciary Committee. So we're not that done yet, but we keep making a little progress. A couple more topics here to get through. Never enough time with Neil Bradley U Chamber of Commerce Housing They point to housing and the cost of housing being through the roof therefore also hurting the economy Talk about that for a moment Yeah, it is. But this is basic supply and demand. And so when supply has become constrained, prices go up. And, you know, over the last 20 years, the estimates vary, but on average, The conclusion is that we built 4.7 million fewer homes in this country than what we needed to meet the population changes and the replacement for dilapidated housing. And so that loss of those 4.7 million homes has meant the prices for existing homes and the rent for those who are renting has gone up. We know it's a supply issue because we can actually look at what has happened in local cities that have made a concerted effort to reform their zoning and their permitting laws to build more housing. Those who expanded the housing supply have actually seen rent and prices come down. So what we really need to do, and this is really at the local and at the state level, is we need to reform these zoning regulations, these permitting regulations, make it easier for builders to build, and that's how we can make housing more affordable. You know, I know just on an offshoot, the permitting process, boy, if you can solve that problem, you solve most of the problems in the United States. I mean, a permit to get a, you know, to do anything, to build a shed in your backyard takes you three years. Right. Imagine you're trying to build a house and, you know, you've got an empty plot of land. You want to build a house for someone to live in. Before you can even turn a shovel of dirt, you're waiting, you know, in a lot of places, two and a half to three years to complete the permitting and approval processes. Time is money. And whoever ends up buying that house is paying not for a better house. They're paying for the two and a half years it took to get those permits. Neil Bradley with us, U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Last question for you, and that is looking into the future. We keep reading and seeing that there's a whole bunch of, there's a generation of business owners that are getting ready to retire. And the next generation, their children don't want to do that. And so they're seeing or telling us that there's going to be a massive amounts of companies for sale in the future. Do you see that? Is that the future? What's going to happen to these small businesses? We do see that. And we see growing mergers where two small businesses might get together. We have seen other companies come in and buy up a series of small businesses who owners are ready to retire and, you know, the kids don't want to take it over. We're also seeing some innovative things. There are some owners who have converted their companies, their businesses into employee-owned. They're called ESOPs, essentially where the employees end up with the ownership of the company. So it's not true that they're all going away, but this is one of the challenges of the retirement of the baby boom generation, and it's something we're going to have to navigate. Yeah, and so there's a wonderful opportunity if somebody wants to buy an existing business, right, I would think. There is wonderful opportunities. And, you know, one of the things that, you know, we talk about education all the time. One of the things that we're really focused on at the U.S. Chamber, we have a partnership with the College Board, and it's a new AP Business and Personal Finance course. And it's not just for the kids who are going on to college. But imagine this. You're in high school, and maybe you're learning welding or automotive repair or construction, and your dream is to one day buy one of those businesses or open your own. We're teaching you right now how to be that carpenter or how to be that plumber. What we're not teaching you is how to understand profit and loss and how to manage debt and borrow money to buy that business. And so we're really excited about the opportunity of introducing into high schools this basic business knowledge so that wherever your career takes you, if there's an opportunity to become your own boss or to buy one of those businesses, you have the knowledge to at least start that process. Neil Bradley is with us, Executive Vice President, Chief Policy Officer for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Neil Bradley, thank you for joining us. Will you come back from time to time and check in with us? I would love to do that. Thanks so much for having me, McGraw. You got it. Neil Bradley with us, Executive Vice President, Chief Policy Officer with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Neil, thank you very much for checking in with us. Interesting hour, interesting conversation from the man who's on the front lines of small businesses, and I said it at the start of the hour. I'll say it at the end of the hour. Look, running a small business is not easy, and you live and you die with each sale, and you live and you die with each Google review. and you live and you die with each paycheck. And a small business owner told me once, we get paid at the end. Everybody else gets paid. Everybody gets paid. All the vendors get paid. All the employees get paid. And at the end of the month, if there's anything left over, that's what we take home. And you often wonder, boy, why do you do it? And the entrepreneur, that person who wants to work for themselves, it's an extraordinary DNA. It's a certain type of person. And to help encourage that and foster that and to help, you know, they're not just all the blue blood starting businesses. There's the people from all walks of life, all neighborhoods, right? They're all opening up businesses in all shapes and sizes. And, you know, that is the lifeblood of America. And as the small business goes, so goes the rest of us. And so it's nice to get a check in with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Neil Bradley. All right. Thanks for checking in. Stay right there. We'll wrap up this hour. Next hour, we're going to talk to a professor from Northwestern University. We're going to look at Mexico and the extraordinary history of Mexico and why it is the way it is. You're going to this is quite a riveting hour. This book called Mexico, a 500 year history, was considered one of the best books of 2025. We're checking with the professor who wrote it next hour. And then, of course, text messages, phone calls, all that coming up in our number three. It's America at Night. Back in a moment. Live from coast to coast, this is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. Coming to you from the heart of the nation, this is America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven. Hey, we've got some news tonight. A federal judge in Boston found that the Trump administration's policy for deporting immigrants to third countries, nations other than their countries of origin, is unlawful. It's an 81-page ruling by Brian Murphy of the Federal District Court of the District of Massachusetts. He wrote that the government must first try to deport the immigrant to their home country or the country designated by the immigration judge where the immigrant was ordered removed from in the first place. After the process, immigration detainees must be given meaningful notice before being deported to another country to allow them the opportunity to raise any fears that they have that they might be persecuted or tortured. So a federal judge in Boston saying that the Trump administration cannot just send a deporting immigrant to a third unknown country. Also, people forget this, but, you know, the federal government is still closed. We're still closed. The Department of Homeland Security is closed. They don't have any funding. And more back and forth today. The Senate Democrats blocked a spending bill to reopen the Department of Homeland Security. So it remains closed for the second week in a row. That is the least reported story out there. I don't think anybody's talking about that. It failed to draw the 60 votes needed to overcome a filibuster. All right, stay right there. We're going to talk about Mexico next hour with a professor from Northwestern who wrote what many considered one of the best nonfiction books of 2025 called Mexico, a 500-year history. It's a fascinating look at a country that we have a lot of preconceived notions of, which are obviously false. We'll get to all that coming up next hour. Our executive director is Alex Hinton. Our engineer tonight is Richard Good. I'm McGraw-Millheaven, and this is America at Night on Westwood One. Thank you. Westwood One presents America at Night. Here's your host, McGraw-Milhaven. Hey, I've got a little trivia question for you. What do all these countries have in common? Let's see here. Let's do here. Let's see here. We've got Greece. We've got South Africa, Denmark, Austria, Israel, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, the Netherlands. What do all those countries have in common? They are all smaller in terms of their GDP than the country of Mexico. Mexico is the 13th, 14th, 13th largest economy in the world, and yet they are plagued by all sorts of things, including the Mexican cartel and everything else. And since they are front and center in the news this week, we thought we would find out a little bit more about Mexico. And we found, oh boy, did we hit the mother load. Paul Gingham is a professor at Northwestern University, and last year he wrote a book called Mexico, a 500-year history. and it was considered one of the best non-fiction books of 2025 by the Washington Post. Professor Paul, welcome to America at Night. Thanks for joining us. Well, thanks very much for the invitation. Pleasure to be here. You know, you think about it and it's one of the least known things, Mexican history. I don't want to go all the way. I don't want to do the whole book because it's such a great read. But take us back to the beginning, right? Tell me the story about the Spanish shipwreck that brought the Spaniards to Mexico. Of course. Well, anybody who's ever been on a holiday to Cozumel or Yucatan will have been very close to where the first contact ever happened. And what happened is that the Spanish had been in the Caribbean islands for about 20 years. And in 1511, this small ship wrecks on a reef called Scorpion Reef, about 70 miles off the coast of Yucatan. And they get in the boat and 17 survivors make it to land. Two weeks later, no food, no water. Some are sacrificed. Most are dead to survive. So in 1511, you get this first contact between two Spanish survivors of a shipwreck and the Maya. Powerful, extremely sophisticated city-states on the Yucatan Peninsula. And what happens next is worthy of being a really good film. Because these two, one is a sailor. His name is Gonzalo Guerrero. Guerrero means warrior in Spanish. And the other is a man called Jerónimo Aguilar. And he's a priest. So they're adopted into local society. Aguilar becomes a slave. Guerrero becomes a war leader. He marries the daughter of the main chief of this group. He goes up through the ranks. And he ends up leading the Maya people of Chetomal to war against his own countrymen, against the Spanish, for the next 20 years, until finally he dies and they find him floating among the dead, somewhere off Honduras. and so you've got this story which really encapsulates how mexico starts in that you have this violent collision of two very different worlds and then in aguilar you've got the slave who never stopped being spanish who as soon as the other spanish arrived ran away to them never really fit in then you've got guerrero who gets along with the people there marries well goes up the ranks, is incredibly sort of broad-minded, tolerant now, to the extent where he adopts this culture. He has children with his noblewoman wife. And in a way, if you think of Mexico as being above all a place which is a meeting of two worlds, then Guerrero's three children be like the first Mexicans. And in these two stories, you've got so much really epitomized of the Mexico to come. It's violent, but also profoundly peaceful. It's cosmopolitan, it's tolerant, and it's violent. When they get there, just a little quick blurb about the Mayans. I mean, the Mayans are a very advanced society, are they not? Yes. The Maya, if you want a European comparison, is a bit like the city-states of Italy in the 15th century. So you've got this real flourishing of art, very sophisticated politically, like the European city-states at continual war, but with a bigger common culture, like, say, the European one at the time. and they have many really impressive gifts. One is that at this stage, they're the most sophisticated astronomers in the world. They can predict the cycles of the moon, they can predict comets, etc. And they are extremely organized. Professor Paul Gilliam is our guest, professor of history at Northwestern University. The book is called Mexico, a 500-year history, considered one of the best nonfiction books of 2025. Okay, in the book, the whole premise of the book, more or less, Professor, is it's shocking that Mexico has even been able to survive all these years. Talk about that for a moment, how it's even a miracle it's a country in and of itself now. Well, Mexico is the last left of the super states which came out of American independence from the Spanish. And so at the beginning, Latin America was carved up into these big countries, basically three around all of South America. And then there was Central America, then there was Mexico. And Mexico in those days stretched from what's now Guatemala all the way up to Oregon and across to Texas. This country is really difficult to rule. Why? Well, because it's extremely mountainous. because there's very few city dwellers there to actually rule, found, a large country. And Mexico manages it very successfully. It's for a while one of the wealthiest territories in the world. And all the time, it's got Spanish, French, and United States. It's surrounded by these more powerful industrializing empires. So Mexican history, in part, is just a question of improbable survival. It's the only place in Latin America which makes it through those first 50 years, building back from a brutal civil war to actually survive, prosper, and make, as you pointed out at the beginning, to be the world's 13th largest economy. so i think people would be shocked to learn that mexico is the 13th largest economy in the world because it is portrayed as being overrun by mexican gangs mexican cartel uh so much infrastructure issues so much violence so how can it be that it is so prosperous in terms of being the 13th largest economy and yet have such a negative connotation it just doesn't seem to match up well there's three reasons really for mexico's remarkably sort of economic dynamism and size right and one is natural resources mexico has a plethora of natural resources and if you count tourism as one that's something which you know we and listeners are probably familiar with secondly mexico has a really highly educated workforce in comparative standards to others middle-income countries. Mexican workforce is extremely highly qualified, hardworking. And then last of all, there's that sort of mixed blessing that Mexico shares a 3,000-mile border with the largest economy on earth, ours. And so that's where the wealth comes from. The instability comes in great part from that 3,000-mile shared border. Why? Well, because the U.S. is the largest consumer of drugs in society in the world. Mexico, not many people know this, but domestically Mexicans historically just haven't taken many drugs. The U.S. historically is the world's number one consumer. And so what do you have? This economic powerhouse of the U.S. wanting what impoverished Mexicans can produce or can ship. What happens? You get this roaring trade, but it's illegal. So what happens? if taken over by gangs, they try and come together and form alliances to become more powerful. As that happens... Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Finish. Oh, I was just going to say that if you think it's bad when they become powerful, it's actually when they become less powerful, when they fragment, when they go to war with each other, that you get real problems, that you get major collateral damage in terms of civilians dying. And so since the real modern war on drugs began in 2006, Mexico has lost at least 200,000 dead, at least 100,000 disappeared, which means dead basically, and then well over 200,000 refugees. Hold that thought. That's a great way to take a quick break. Professor Paul Gilliam with us, the professor of history at Northwestern University. His book is Mexico, a 500-year history. We're just getting started. Stay right there. If you have a question, certainly text your questions to 1-844-2-MGRAW. That's 1-844-262-4729. America at Night. Back in a moment. America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven, where the nation comes to talk. This is America at Night with McGrath Milhaven. With all the things going on in the world, it might not be a bad idea to find out a little bit more about our partner, our neighbor to the South, Mexico, and Paul Gillingham is a professor at Northwestern University, wrote a book last year called Mexico, a 500-year history getting rave reviews. Professor, I want to go back to what you said last segment, powerful versus less powerful. You said the drug cartels are more dangerous when they're less powerful versus when they're powerful. That's an interesting comment. Explain what you mean. um if you like to think of it in terms of mafia films right and so we've all seen a lot of mafia films and we know that when you've got powerful families who have divided up the turf and they're doing their own business profitably because they're businessmen right um life is relatively peaceful it's when those agreements break down when families split and there's opportunity for people to try and grab other people's turf and the others are defending it, that's when you get bloodshed. And so one of the reasons what I'd argue is what we see now in Mexico, people think, Mexico has always been violent. Well, that's very debatable. What we know now, though, is we've had 20 years of a low-key civil war. And the reason that happened is because a few large drug trading organizations were attacked by the Mexican army all at once. And they splintered and they started competing amongst themselves because it was no hold barred. And as a result, you had this sudden shocking surge in violence. And, you know, we tend to think it's very easy, ah, well, you know, that's the way Mexico just is violence out of the border. But historically, that's not actually very accurate. And what we see now in this, as I say, this is a low intensity civil war that we've been seeing for nearly 20 years. This is a rupture with Mexican history. This is something new and different. And it's because the government, Mexican government, supported by the US, decided to attack all of the cartels all the time. And they opened up all these opportunities for competition and bloodshed, and civilians are just part of the cost that gets paid. Okay, so you're saying that the civil war is between the Mexican government and the Mexican cartels? No, it's between Mexican government and cartels, cartels against cartels, and so it's two at once. and you can quite happily go to Mexico, you can go to Mexico City, you can go to Cancun, Cosmo, and you can never see any of this. But you can go to Michoacan, which is a major battleground, and you'll see an army resupplying its forward bases by helicopter because the roads are too dangerous. You'll see drones like you might see in Ukraine. You'll see IEDs like you might see in Iraq. It's got all the characteristics of a war. And wherever the cartels are competing amongst each other, really violently, and no one organization has control, that's what you're getting, and that's what we're seeing. And you're saying the cartels are so powerful and so wealthy that they have their own armies and their own independent sort of nation, in a sense, their nation state, and they are fighting for their territory and for their land. I would call them a nation state because most of them are business people. And it's the first thing you need to understand about successful drug traders is they're very, very good business people. And so very few of them have the sort of ideology that we are a nation. It's more like we are a gang, like a mafia family. But, yeah, they do get that level of control, like a state within a state where they have where they have soul power. And they collect taxes in the form of extortion. They sometimes arrest other criminals and they use violence to keep people in line. And the Mexican government is not strong enough to overpower them. No, exactly. It's a bit of a melodramatic example, but it's a bit like fighting a guerrilla war. It's a little bit like the US and Vietnam, and I stress a little bit. But basically, it's difficult to tell, if you're the army, who is a fighter and who is a civilian. It's not like people stand up all the time to get shot. and these cartels quite often they outgun local army units i mean you look at what they're using i just said drones but they've got these portables with like iron dome anti-drone shields they've got barrett 50 caliber rifle they've got rpg 7s and they've got armored cars homemade you get a pickup you put on a load of armor plating and you put a heavy caliber machine gun in the back and then you put 30 of those in a convoy and you attack somewhere, you need to have a fairly muscular army garrison that can actually put up a fight. So the cartels have extraordinary firepower, and they use it against the army and against their competitors. I've got about 30 seconds before I need to break again, then we'll bring you back on the other side for a longer segment. What drugs are we talking about? Is it cocaine? Is it fentanyl? Is it marijuana? What kind of drugs are we talking about? The two really big ones are cocaine, which is what gave them money for the modern drug business on this scale, and fentanyl, which is the most profitable and easily smuggled of right now. And it's coming from China, is it not? Precursors come from China. They're then sort of assembled into fentanyl in labs in places like this name will come up over and over again, the state of Michoacan, and then it's shipped north. And whatever you might say about stopping that flow, all your listeners will know from our opioid crisis, this tragedy, a pinhead of fentanyl can kill you. And so to make money, you just have to smuggle a couple of small packets. Hold that thought. Paul Gillingham is our professor at Northwestern University. He's written a book, Mexico, a 500-year history. More to get to. Fascinating conversation about the Mexican cartel and what is going on with our southern neighbors. America at Night, back in a moment. You're listening to America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. Thank you Welcome to America at Night with McGraw Northwestern University's professor Paul Gillingham has written a book, Mexico, a 500-year history, talking about the events of the last couple of days. Professor, put into perspective the drug kingpin El Mencho, who was shot and killed Sunday, and then the chaos in Puerto Vallarta. According to your theory, that just creates more chaos, which creates far more uncertainty, which creates far more troubles for the country of Mexico. Yes. The capture and killing of El Mencho was a once-in-a-decade event. It was one of the huge cartel names gone from the scene. What happens next? Either somebody equally qualified steps into his shoes. You get continuity. You get the same flow of drugs going north. or the cartel splits, you get violent competition. What will remain the same after maybe a couple of fluctuations is the flow northwards of drugs. And you saw this really clearly the last time there was a once in a decade capture, which was El Chapo, head of the Sinaloa cartel, the most powerful cartel of the time. And of course, the Mexican government and the DEA make a huge fuss of it. This is a game changer. What happens? Cocaine flows actually increase the next year. The Sinaloa cartel, it splinters into two. They start fighting in their time. Does it affect what this is all supposed to be about, just drug interdiction? No, it doesn't affect in the slightest. And so for me, sure, Sunday's killing of El Mencho is a big deal. But if you really want to put into perspective what counts in a year's time, check on, first of all, how many people are being killed. Secondly, check on the street price of cocaine, of anything containing fentanyl. And if those street prices have gone up, something's happening. maybe this has helped interrupt the flow but my money says it won't and this is part of just the logic which does not work we all like to think in terms of heroes and villains and cops and robbers and taking out people like Menchur and Tchapo these are really good stories but they're kind of fairy tales they're cops and robbers stories because the reality is we've seen over 60 years you take down a major drug trading organization's leader. And in terms of how many people get killed, how much drugs close, nothing changes over and over again. And this is because when you think of a cartel, you think, oh, wow, it's this incredibly powerful organization. Actually, it's more like a franchise. And somebody compared it once to McDonald's. And that's really a brilliant comparison. So you've got all these sort of semi-independent franchises, right? And what happens in McDonald's when the CEO has a heart attack and is fired? Do all the franchises stop selling burgers? Does the supply of burger in the beginning? No. It is an illusion to think that you kill something like Al Menchor, you solve a problem, because we have demonstrated historically over 60 years, it doesn't. I think actually historians might look back and say what's really interesting about what happened Sunday is the fact that for the first time ever, the cartels used AI to try and spread panic. As you've got these fake images coming out of the Guadalajara airport of planes on fire. Now that's something different. That's really radically new. The degree of violence that followed is impressive. But taking down El Mencho in terms of what really counts, I just don't see that it makes that much of a difference to be depressed. There are people here in this country who think if we build a wall, that will solve the drug problem, the drugs getting into this country, or using drones or using other things that stops the influx of drugs into this country. What do you say? I say that in all of human history, if a business is lucrative enough, no one can stop it. and you build a wall, how many tens of thousands of trucks go through Laredo every day, right, container trucks? Do you really think that you can search every single one of them for a couple of kilos of fentanyl? You can't. A wall, you get humans going through, they can smuggle things. You've got roots by sea, you can try, but walls really will not change anything. And there was a great joke by the ex-president Vicente Fox, who had a really good sort of rancher sense of humor. And he said, when he started talking about building a wall back in the end of the last decade, yeah, you can build a wall. We have a Mexican technology, which some Mexicans will use. It's called a ladder. With all of this drug cartel activity, you said that's picked up after 2006 when this sort of current situation began. The innocent people, right, they're the ones who are running. Those are the ones running to the border to try and find a better life, to sort of get away from the drug cartels, right, which has then created more pressure on the border in America. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, those two flows, aren't there? You've got Central American refugees going through Mexico, and then you've got Mexicans. and the combined, this is what puts such pressure on the border, peaking in 2022. Since then, migrant numbers have been falling off. But yeah, refugees have to go somewhere. And if you ever hear cases on deportation procedures, which I have a couple of times, these stories of heartbreak, a single mother of four who has had to leave her home, run, because she couldn't pay extortion payments to the local cartel. And so she had to run. She had to cross immediately. She declares herself a refugee. She goes to Chicago. Two years later, she and her four children are fighting deportation. And that's just an everyday story. You've got 200,000-plus refugees to account for, running from stories like that. Professor, it is a fascinating book, Professor Paul Gillingham, I'm professor of history at Northwestern University. The book is Mexico, a 500-year history. From somebody in, from a texter in Providence, Rhode Island, they asked me, texted in this question, why can't we drink the water in Mexico? What do you say? I say you can't drink the water in Mexico the way you can't drink the water, say, in White Lotus or in St. Barts, because it's a tropical country. and tropical countries universally there's an awful lot of bugs in the water and so mexico chlorinates water the way we do here but the bacterial competition to get into your gut is a lot different so i say to you you know you drink bottled water in mexico you'll also drink bottled water in a luxury resort anywhere in a tropical zone in the world so it has nothing other than to do other than their geographical area listen, Mexico City chlorinates 95% of its water could they do better? sure, could we do better? specifically speaking in Chicago is a good example with our water quality oh yes we could really interesting take me back to before 2006, before this current war on drugs began, that was when they were powerful and they were left to run their cartels as they saw fit. Was it much less confrontational? Was it much less dangerous? Yes, it was less confrontational. It was less dangerous. There was a very clear set of boundaries drawn. The Mexican state could not take out these drug trading organizations, but it could deal with them one by one. And so it sort of policed the borders. It enforced law and order as much as it could. But even if Mexico has the 13th largest GDP on the planet, if you look at a map of Mexico, there's an awful lot of mountains and mountains are very difficult to rule. You had a relatively small army and you have over and over again this huge business opportunity, which is the U.S. consumer drug market. that's just unstoppable you could put I don't know the Vatican on the border of the US and the Cardinals would be busy running drugs up north because it is such an extraordinary business and as long as that exists as long as you have really strong consumer demand it's pretty classic through Adam Smith's economics you know people will find a way to supply the demand it wasn't sort of regulated if you want until 2006 and then suddenly it wasn't and there's this really huge change I think it's tragic because we're talking about Mexico in the prism of violence drugs instability as though that's just the word it always been but I like the way you just picked up it's since 2006 this isn't like a distillation of the way Mexico's always been Mexico actually is remarkably successful taken across five centuries you said at the beginning miracle exists Mexico is trying to be in the 16th century what the US is trying to be in the 20th what do I mean by that? it wants to be the great melting pot it wants to try and bring together very different people and have them live together in a political system and society which gives them something like a fair ship and Mexico pulls this off Mexico in the 16th century It's the first place in the world Where you get people from all corners You've got people from Asia From West Africa From Europe Over 200 indigenous groups And for three centuries With this sort of pretty hands-off Spanish rule They get along There's a reason when you go to Mexico You go looking for castles And you won't find them That's because it was a fairly peaceful place There's a reason Mexico doesn't have a standing army until well into or towards the end of the 18th century is because, improbably, Mexico is actually quite peaceful. And in part, because of that, it can produce silver, which inflates the global money supply 500%. The world economy we know today, this is all rooted in peaceful Mexico between 1550 and 1820. But because of the insatiable appetite of the Americans who want their drugs, it's so profitable that it created the Mexican cartel because they're just supplying the demand of the American consumer. Oh, totally. It's actually, even to me, and I've been working on this for a while, but the drug statistics in terms of how many drugs Mexicans took until the last 20 years, It's through the floor. They were in the bottom 20% of society taking cocaine in the world. If you were a parent in Mexico when I used to live there in the 90s, your main worry really was that kids would be sniffing glue or maybe snorting arisum propellant. Neither of which is a clever idea, but it's a lot different from cocaine, opioids, meth, fentanyl. It's just a different league. and this is something which I would love somebody to explain to me but I think also my colleagues wrestle with understanding what is it in the US apart from the wealth to buy it which makes us such a nation of drug consumers I don't get it, I mean McGrawker, do you have any hypothesis on this? Because I'm left genuinely baffled I've never thought of it that way, but the Mexicans I didn't even comprehend that they were just not drug users. I just never thought of it. But a child in Mexico is not necessarily prone to taking illegal drugs where the teenager in America, for some reason, or the adult or whatever else, is more prone. I don't certainly begin to have the answer. But it's worth noting, Professor, that I guess if the Americans wanted to truly cripple the Mexican cartel, we should stop doing cocaine and stop using fentanyl you know I'm not wanting to make light of something which is so deadly serious and tragic but when I teach this I tell my university students look so many people use recreational drugs they're the ones that are probably going to kill you which is anything that might have fentanyl and they're the ones which are just straightforwardly morally wrong because so many brown people died and getting into your nose and that's cocaine Professor Paul Gillingham, professor of history at Northwestern University, a fascinating conversation. The book is Mexico, a 500-year history. I've got about a minute and a half left. With the president of Mexico going after the Mexican cartel and killing this latest drug kingpin, and they then going after Parto Vallarta, is this the next level of violence? Are they going to start going after terrorist hotbeds in Mexico? What happens next? I don't know. What I can tell you is I expect drug flows to be the same or go up. I expect a lot of violence. And this is really key because of all the horror that something should happen in Puerto Vallarta, which has an awful lot of foreign visitors. Two of my colleagues have time shares there. is that Americans in Mexico are pretty sacrosanct. We have the privilege that criminals know it is not a good idea to kill an American. So with something of an injustice even, Americans are still safe going to Mexico. I would urge you go to Mexico. It's an amazing place. Elsewhere, backstage, other places we don't go. And there's going to be shocking violence. so the world cup full steam ahead because they sure do like tourists in mexico oh yeah and football even more sorry i say football you guys say soccer actually football they don't really like at all it's another of those mysteries why american football never really caught on in mexico when they love baseball they love soccer i don't know maybe a sports fan could explain that one to me mexico a 500 year history the author, a Northwestern University professor, Paul Gillingham. Paul, thank you for a fascinating hour. Good luck down the road. McGraw, thank you very much. Have a good evening. You got it. America at Night, back in a moment. Live from coast to coast, this is America at Night with McGraw-Millhaven. The text line is open. Send us a message at 844-2-MGRAW. That's 844-262-4729. All right. That was some conversation with Professor Paul Gillingham, professor of history at Northwestern University, talking about the Mexican cartel. Just a riveting conversation. If you missed it, of course, the podcast is always available at AmericaAtNightLive.com. You can also go to any places where podcasts are out there. You can go to America at Night and pick up the podcast. But if you missed any of it, if you wanted to find out what's going on in Mexico and the Mexican cartels and the drug trade and this drug lord who was shot and killed, uh riveting conversation and um yeah almost to the point where speechless um really interesting and who knew that the reason why you can't drink the water in mexico has nothing to do with the infrastructure it has to do with the geographical location it's a tropical uh area therefore breeds more bugs and parasites and everything they clean the water and chlorinate the water just like we do in America, but because it's a tropical area, no matter, even if you're in the world's greatest resorts in a tropical area, don't drink the water because it's much more apt to be prone with parasites because of the area of the geography. Who knew? Interesting. All right, stay right there. We're going to do open phones next hour. Start lining up. questions, comments, 1-844-2-Mcgraw, 1-844-262-4729. We had a good show tonight. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and then talking about the Mexican history and the current situation with the Mexican cartel. America at Night, open phones next hour. Our executive director is Alex Hinton. Our engineer is Richard Good. I'm McGraw-Milhaven, and this is America at Night on Westwood One. Westwood One presents America at Night. Here's your host, McGraw-Milhaven. We are back. Hour number three on a Wednesday night, the last Wednesday in February. Phone numbers are as follows. 1-844-2-MUGRAW, 1-844-262-4729. Last night we were all caught up in the State of the Union, and so tonight's more of a normal night, so we're back to normal programming. Our guests tonight, boy, really enjoyed it. I hope you did as well. Our first hour, we had Neil Bradley, the executive vice president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, talking about small businesses and the plight of small business and affordability and tariffs and home prices and labor and everything else. Last hour, hour number two, we talked with a professor about Mexico and the Mexican cartel and the drug trade and the who, the what, the when, the where, the how. And I would recommend you going back and listening to both of those. where all fine podcasts are offered, but his basic premise was the Mexican cartel exists to support the American consumer and that the American consumer is such a profitable trade that there's so much money that it is impossible to destroy, that if you kill the head of the snake, somebody else will just take his place. It was a riveting hour. Professor Paul Gilliam wrote the book, Mexico, A 500-Year History. I would recommend both those hours to people who want to find out more about what's going on in the news today. All right, phone numbers, text messages, 1-844-2-Mcgraw, 1-844-262-4729. Before we go to the phones, I don't know why I do, But I feel the need to talk about the Epstein files in a way in which I again, I've said this before and I'll say it again. I was never an Epstein files conspiracy theorist. I'm not an Epstein files conspiracy theorist. I don't think there's any there there. Call me crazy. I might be a blind spot, but that's just where I am. And I still feel that way. But the more stories you find out about this Epstein character, the more you just don't believe it. So I'm watching the evening news tonight, and I see they held up a story. The story was about what wasn't being released, okay? And so now there's all this speculation about what wasn't released and what's being held back and whatever else. But one of the pictures they posted on the evening news tonight was of Stephen Hawking. You know who Stephen Hawking is? Stephen Hawking, remember that movie, The Theory of Everything? Stephen Hawking is one of the most brilliant minds ever. And The Theory of Everything was a story of his life. And was it Kenny Redmayne, Johnny Redmayne, who was that guy's name? Eddie Redmayne portrayed Stephen Hawking. I think he actually ended up winning the Academy Award for it. Stephen Hawking was this brilliant man, brilliant scientist, who came down with ALS and spent the last 50 years of his life battling ALS, talking with a voice synthesizer living in a wheelchair. But he still had this brilliant mind, right, this brilliant mind that was trapped in this body that had failed him. And the reason why I'm bringing up Stephen Hawking is because apparently in the Epstein files, is a picture of Stephen Hawking in a lounge chair with a palm tree behind him with two women in bikinis handing him some type of drink with an umbrella in it. That's part of the Epstein files. A picture of Stephen Hawking with two women whose faces are blacked out in black bikinis and they're all drinking some type of tropical fruit drink. Now, I saw this and I was like, you've got to be kidding me that Stephen Hawking was somehow involved in the Epstein files? I did not have that on my bingo card. Turns out that Stephen Hawking was in attendance in a conference funded and hosted by Jeffrey Epstein in March of 2006. which was five months before he was charged with soliciting a prostitute in Florida. So the conference was held in the Caribbean, St. Thomas, not on Epstein's private island. And there's no insinuation of any malfeasance or any wrongdoing with Stephen Hawking. but shame on the evening news for just showing the picture the salacious picture just to get a rise out of somebody and not to put it in its context so if you're out there and you see the picture of Stephen Hawking that's been all over social media now right because it's somewhat shocking right you see this man whose whose body has left him his mind is still intact uh on this uh lounge chair with these two women who were holding it. I almost thought it was AI generated. I almost thought, who was the disgusting person who did this? But it turns out it's a real photo of him at this conference, hosted and put on by Jeffrey Epstein, before anybody knew what a bad guy he was. But I just wanted to at least try and defend the reputation of Stephen Hawking, because you see that picture and you think, oh, my goodness, that can't be. But it turns out it's not. So hope that helps you out there. 1-844-2-MIGRAU, 1-844-262-4729. Kathy in Vancouver, here's what I want to do. I want to take a quick break. Phones are lining up. Kathy, hold on. We'll get to you on the other side. Open phones. The hour is all yours. Whatever you want to talk about. You want to talk about the elongated State of the Union address last night? The performance of it? I'd rather stick needles in my eye, but we can if you're dying to. Or anything else. You want to go rogue or text in 1-844-2-MGRAW. America at Night. Back in a moment. Call now. 844-262-4729. That's 844-2-MGRAW. The floor is yours. Call or text 844-262-4729. That's 844-2-MGRAW. All right, let's go to the phones. 1-844-2-MGRAW, 1-844-262-4729. Let's go to Catherine in Vancouver. Catherine, welcome to America at Night. Hey, how are you? I'm good, how are you? I'm good, but I'm not going to stick pins in your eyes. That's good. No, that would be too painful. but I had a memory in the 70s when I was a teeny bobber and my girlfriend I used to hang out with, her parents would come back from Mexico and they would come back with all this jewelry, all these rings and they'd have all these sombreros on their wall and I'm like, this is crazy and they said, oh yeah, we get it really cheap and I'm like, they have it all draped over their necks and lots of jewelry. And they say they got it really cheap. And I'm like, they look like gang guys with all this jewelry. Do you know why it was so cheap in the late 70s? Why was it so cheap in the late 70s? In Mexico, the jewelry. Yeah, I don't know. Are you just asking me in general or are you asking me because you know the answer? Oh, yeah, you're going to say everything in the 70s was cheaper, but it was like it was cheap. It was cheaper there than it was here Yeah I don know I don know I i i don know i i don know i have no idea i i don know much about mexico i i been there have i been there i never been to mexico i don't know much about mexico um which is i mean i know a little bit about mexico um but not i i actually to be honest with you i'm somewhat embarrassed by how little i know about Mexico. I know much more about Canada. I know much more about Europe. But I'm like a lot of Americans. I just sort of don't. I've never been there. It's not really on my radar, but it's the 13th largest economy in the world. And it's our largest one of our largest trading partners. And we probably should know a little bit more about what's going on in Mexico, because it certainly affects us here in in in America. I do know this. I do know this. I know a lot of people i i have friends and relatives who live in st louis i had friends in college who live in san diego and they would often talk about you know going to mexico would be like going to the store it was like no big deal they would cross over into mexico like no one's business as a matter of fact i know a businessman in uh arizona who uh was a very prominent businessman i won't mention his name but he told me at one point that before they started to quote unquote crack down on the immigrants, that a lot of immigrants would come to America and work and then go home to Mexico and then come back the next day and then right or or come up for two months, take a job in somewhere for two months and then go back home. But when they, quote unquote, made it harder to cross the border, they then got into this country and just ended up staying because it was harder to get across the border. So in some sense, by locking up the border, we've stopped the flow of people. Therefore, they don't go home. They just stay here. So it's an interesting argument. Nonetheless, Catherine in Vancouver, thanks for checking in. Right. If you're if you make if you, you know, I don't know if you work in Chicago and you live in Indiana right now, they're talking about the Bears building a football stadium in Indiana, right? How many states do you work in New York, but you live in New Jersey and you cross the border? You don't think about it. Yeah, I'll just go into New York and I'll work and I'll come home to Jersey. Well, think of that as a country. Yeah, I'm going to go work in America, but I'll live in Mexico. Well, if they all of a sudden cut off the border between New York and New Jersey, it's kind of hard to get from one to the other. So I still want to work in New York, but I can't get home to New Jersey anymore. So it was an interesting comment from a business owner. Tim in Washington. Tim, welcome to America at Night. Thank you. Hey, I just wanted to say that, you know, your deal on Stephen Hawking. Yes. You know, I heard like 9, 12 months ago that he was connected with Epstein Island. So I don't think this is a new thing, and I would caution people one way or another, but there might be some there there. Well, first of all, it's new because the picture's new. I've never seen this picture. I've never heard of Stephen Hawking somehow connected to it. But according to the experts and according to the evidence, he was at a science convention. He's a scientist, world-renowned. Before Jeffrey Epstein was found to be a bad guy the first time, this world-renowned scientist was at a convention of scientists put on by Jeffrey Epstein. There's no reason why Stephen Hawking couldn't go to a conference at St. Thomas and sit around the pool and enjoy a cocktail. You know, there's nothing nefarious about that at all. And so there's no evidence of Stephen Hawking doing anything other than being, you know, caught up in this ring. And so there's no evidence. But by looking at the picture, people like you or other people are like, oh, yeah, where there's smoke, there's fire. There is no smoke, I was Stephen Hawking. And to insinuate anything else, I think, is somewhat disingenuous. So you say people like me. Well, did you just say that you think Stephen Hawking is somehow connected to the Epstein files? and that Stephen Hawking is somewhat guilty of doing something inappropriate? Did you just say that he's not? I said there's no evidence of it. I have an open mind. Do you? Yes. Okay. So I'm saying that there were reports of this a long time ago. From where? And you're just mentioning, oh, they were everywhere. Well, first of all, hold on a second. Hold on a second. This picture is new, okay? It's a new picture of Stephen Hawking. I have never heard Stephen Hawking's name connected with Jeffrey Epstein in all of the conversations about Jeffrey Epstein over the last number of years. I've never heard Stephen Hawking. I'm glad you did. I did. But just to have a name attached is no evidence. Okay, that's not evidence. There's no evidence of him doing anything nefarious with this innocent picture of him by the pool. So nothing other than an innocent person caught up in the Epstein files. So why do you think there's some evidence out there that he might be engaged in something nefarious? I don't necessarily believe it. I will have an open mind, and I don't know if you listen to the news, but like I said, I heard about this a long time ago. Well, you know what, Tim? I'm going to keep an open mind because I think you were involved with the Epstein scandals. I don't know. I don't know. Well, I don't know. I mean, maybe. Maybe, you know, there's no evidence, but I'm going to keep an open mind. I mean, that's not fair. That's disingenuous. What's not fair? What's disingenuous? I think you're being disingenuous because there's no evidence of this man being involved in any way, shape, or form, but you're going to keep an open mind because maybe somewhere down the road there might be evidence. So I'm still not going to rule it out. that's ridiculous that's just ridiculous yeah that's ridiculous so you have a closed mind there's no way that Stephen Hawking was involved he never went to Epstein Island he never besides one innocent convention that he went to he never had any other contact with Epstein No, no, no. I'm saying there's no evidence of anything. I don't know, but there's no evidence. And lacking evidence, I'm going to assume he wasn't involved. There's no evidence of Stephen Hawking murdering RFK President Kennedy. That doesn't mean I'm going to keep an open mind. Are you saying he didn't? He could have. He very well could have. Well, I don't know if he ever had contact with RFK. Well, not yet, but who knows? He could have. We just might not know about it, but he could have. That's ridiculous. I don't know. I always thought you were someone who could have an open mind, but apparently not. Yeah, okay. Stop saying I don't have an open mind because... Okay. God love you. Tim in Washington. That's open phones. That's how it works. Text messages, phone calls. 1-8442-MGRAH America at Night back in a moment Join the conversation. Call 844-2-MGRAW. America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven. All right, to put this Stephen Hawking controversy to bed, so I'm reading here a spokesman for the Hawking family said the two women in the photo were as long-term caregivers from the United Kingdom, not strangers or people with any connection to any wrongdoing. In this statement that they said, the family said, Professor Hawking made some of the greatest contributions to physics in the 20th century, while at the same time being the longest known survivor of motor neuron disease, a debilitating condition, which left him reliant on a ventilator, voice synthesizer, wheelchair, and round-the-clock medical care. Any insinuation of inappropriate conduct on his part is wrong and far-fetched and in the extreme. That, according to the family. So, Tim in Washington, there's your answer. I stand by my comments. You're being disingenuous, and you're not being open-minded. You're being agenda-driven. Fake news. Scott in St. Louis, welcome to America at Night. Yeah, speaking of that, Nick Shirley, the famous YouTuber, he said there's 30 people registered to vote at this one address in San Diego. But that one address is an apartment complex. It's an apartment complex. so it's so it's so it's seven main street and it's got 30 apartments there yeah okay yeah yeah yeah and you know this guy he thought it was like evidence of voter fraud this is you know you know who this is right he's the same guy this is the guy who took a video camera to child daycares up in minnesota and uh and uh blew the lid off of the fact that kids are not in the playground during lunch. Yeah. He's a grifter. He's a grifter taking advantage of these MAGAs just like Trump. Yeah. They're grifters. This Nick Shirley's YouTube videos of investigative journalism did not stand up to scrutiny. to say the least. And I'm not saying that as a liberal or a conservative, but just factually, when other news outlets went to confirm his hypothesis and his theory and his investigation, his whole thing crumbled. And even one of the daycares he went to in the middle of the day where there were no children, it was a daycare for workers who work at night. So there aren't going to be kids there during the day. There are going to be kids there in the middle of the night. So it would be like going to a daycare in the middle of the night and saying, this daycare doesn't have any children, but it's on the list for getting financial aid. Look, do I think that the fraud in Minnesota was already well exposed by Merrick Garland and it was already in the courts. It was already being exposed. it's terrible, it's awful, it shouldn't have happened. The people who are responsible for it should be thrown in jail. No one's in favor of fraud. But to insinuate that this Nick Shirley sort of uncovered this unfettered fraud, that narrative is just not true. Yeah. Yeah, and Trump, yeah, the guy who, well, Joe Thompson is the U.S. attorney. that, yeah, you know, I guess he was working for Merrick Garland. He exposed and indicted a lot of these people. And because of the mess in Minnesota caused by Trump and ICE, this guy resigned. He was the guy that exposed. Yeah, but with all that being said, though, you know, Tim Walls has some explaining to do because this fraud was massive. It wasn't just, you know, $5 out of the till. It was massive fraud. And why was this not checked? And why was this not caught before? I mean, it's a serious fraud story. There's no question about it. You know, why did it take Merrick Garland years to sort of bring these charges? I mean, this was going on for years. Probably some of the biggest Medicare fraud that we saw. Same with, was it Mississippi with Brett Favre and that whole Medicare fraud story, right? What is it, Nick, should we go down to Mississippi and find out what Brett Favre was doing with the volleyball camps and all that money? How about Rick Scott? Senator Rick Scott, he ripped off Medicare, but somehow he got away with it. You know, he said, no, it wasn't me. It was, huh? I don't know that story. I have not heard that story. All right. Scott, I'm going to go. Well, it was a while ago. Scott, thanks for the phone call. Appreciate it, as always. 1-844-2-Mcgraw. 1-844-262-4729. 1-844-262-4729. All right, let's go to the text lines. We got a whole bunch of texters coming in here. Let me want to get to some of them. Jim, let's see here. We got Jim in, where's Jim? In South Carolina. Epstein hung out with a lot of scientists. Okay, I didn't know that. But you know the other great question? Here's another one. Wow, so the family statement is the end all be all. You are not being very honest. How am I not being very honest? What am I lying about? I'm covering up Stephen Hawking being involved with Jeffrey Epstein and all of his escorts. Yeah, I'm covering that up. Holy mackerel. What is the problem? I have said, I read the family statement verbatim. Much more plausible that the women in the picture, I innocently enough started this whole thing by criticizing the evening news, by insinuating that somehow Stephen Hawking was involved when this innocent picture was released. They should have given it a little more context so that people don't assume that somehow Stephen Hawking was involved in this whole thing. And what am I being criticized for? Uh-huh. Insinuating that there is something more there. Holy mackerel. Nuts. here's one from upstate New York hi McGraw love your show big time since it started wish you didn't have to feel obligated to take Tony from Montreal's phone call every single night and Catherine from Vancouver is a close second you only have less than an hour for actual phone calls they take advantage of your generosity I've shut it off when Tony calls because it makes me crazy wanted to fire this off quickly, Steve from upstate New York. Well, that's not very nice, Steve. Steve, if you called in, look, I take the callers as they come. When Tony calls in, they call in. I have been known to cancel people and suspend people if they're not very friendly or if they're being rude or insensitive or something along those lines. But otherwise, no, I take them as they come. I don't screen them. I take them as they come. And, Steve, if you want to call in and chime in and be part of the show, you have that opportunity too, 1-844-2-Mcgraw. But I do thank you for liking the show. Here's one from TJ in Kansas City. I have two rogue questions for you. One, wondering how close you got to professional baseball, and did you have any interest in it? Yes, I had a lot of interest in it. I would have loved to have been a professional baseball player. Anyone have to be stuck talking to these people about Jeffrey Epstein all night long? No, I'm kidding. No, sure, I think everybody who picked up a ball and a bat and a glove wanted to be a professional baseball player. For me, I played in college. I never played after college. I was probably good enough. I was an average, average, very average college baseball player. When I was good, I played. When I wasn't good, I didn't play. I hurt my arm towards the end of my career. I probably wouldn't have been drafted or picked up. Maybe I could have hung around for a cup of coffee in the minor leagues somewhere. But by that point, my career was over with, and I had to go find something else to do. And I fell backwards over a coffee table into radio, and I've loved every second of it since. So there's your answer. Number two, did you have any interaction with Tom Osborne? If so, could you indulge us with a story? Nice to have you back on the air. Keep up the good work. Tom Osborne. I've had quite a bit of stories with Tom Osborne. Do I have a good Tom Osborne story for you? So I took when Tom Osborne retired, he taught a class called coaching football. And I was already out of college and I was working in the media up in Omaha. And Tom Osborne taught a class called coaching football. And I went to the news conference where he announced that he retired, and now a few months later he said that I'm going to keep busy. Before he became a congressman, he was going to coach this class called Coaching Football. And I signed up for the class because I was a graduate. I was able to just sort of take this class. I went to the bursar's office, paid the money, and took Tom Osborne's coaching football class. And I will tell you, in all honesty, I don't think in the beginning he was very happy with me taking the class. I think he thought or they thought that I was somehow doing a story on it or somehow some type of news plant or was going to sell the information to ESPN or something. But I signed up for the class, and I took the class. That was never my intention. My intention was to, this man's going to talk about football. I think one of the greatest coaches of all time. You probably want to hear what the guy has to say. And I will tell you, it was one of the most riveting classes I ever took. Not because of the sports, which was interesting. Not because of how he broke down offensive plays, which was interesting. Not because of how he broke down defensive plays. Not because to watch him break down fullback dives in the middle of the offensive line, which was interesting. But to hear him tell the stories, he would devise a play, or he'd be talking about a play, and with this photographic memory, would tell stories. In 1978, we're playing Oklahoma, we're down by four, and Barry Switzer has this play called, and we're in this defense. And I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, if this is a pass, we're going to get, we're trying to so sell out the run, We don't know what to do if he passes. And so it was riveting to hear him sort of dissect plays from 30 years ago. And his memory was, in 1972 we played this game. In 1984 we had this game. In 1991 we played Colorado. And he would have this photographic memory. And so that was really interesting. I ended up getting an A in the class. complained a couple of times because I thought he mismarked me. And I went up to class afterwards and tried to change my grade. Arguing with him wasn't very good. I still argued with the poor man. Never changed my grade. But I, shall I say, contested some of the questions on some of the tests. But ultimately, the final was you had to create a playbook. An offensive and a defensive playbook. So there's my Tom Osborne story for you. Let's go. We got, is it Andrew or is it Edmonds? Oh, not yet. Alright. 1-844-2-Migrault. 1-844-262-4729. Is it Edmonds or is it Andrews? Gil. Oh, I'm sorry. Gil. There you go. Gil in San Antonio. Gil, thanks for joining us on America at Night. I really enjoyed Professor Gillingham. And I'm going to tell you something about the Mexican cartel that he didn't mention. Okay. You know who started the first Mexican cartel? Who? The United States government. During World War II, the production of opium used for morphine and other opiates to control pain was controlled basically by the Japanese, the places that they had occupied. They found that a place in Mexico called Tamasuga, Durango, close to Sinaloa, had poppy fields during the opium war with China, and they had been exploited by the British, those opium fields. So the United States, to have opium to treat soldiers who had been wounded, went there and got the locals to start planting opium again. Well, after the Korean War, because they needed them during World War II, they needed it during Korea. After the Korean War, they didn't need it anymore. So they told the locals to stop producing the opium, but they had gotten used to all of this money that they were getting from the United States government. So that's when they went into the opium business to make heroin that was distributed mostly around California. And there was a large, large number of World War II and Korean veterans who had been treated with opium who had become addicted. And they managed to find their way to California. And that's where the first Mexican drugs started coming to the United States. So they created their own market, and it all went from there. Yeah, the law of unintended consequences, for sure. Gil in San Antonio, good stuff. Thanks for checking in. And I thought Professor Gillingham was fascinating as well. It was a fascinating look at Mexico in the 21st century. Gil, thanks. It's 1050. I'll give another text here, and then I'll break. This one is from Illinois. I believe these Trump tariffs enrich only the federal government. But it's only for gains, U.S. shrinkflation and higher prices, which fosters inflation, company layoffs, which leads to recessions and depressions like what happened in the 1930s. Yeah, not a fan of the tariffs. And if you believe the polls, many Americans are also not fans of the tariffs. And if you believe the polls, the Americans believing that they're the ones paying the tariffs and not necessarily the company or the country of origin. American consumers are paying the tariffs. America at Night, back in a moment. America at Night with McGraw-Milhaven, where the nation comes to talk. That's about going to do it for us tonight. I'd like to thank our guests from earlier, Neil Bradley, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and Professor Paul Gillingham, the one Gil liked so much, professor of history at Northwestern University, wrote a book, Mexico, A 500-Year History. And if you missed any of it, Of course, the podcast is available, or all fine podcasts are. And if you'd like to join the show, text in 8442-MGRAH, 1-844-262-4729. We will send you a link to the show, sign up for the link, and then you'll be able to get the menu. Each and every day we'll send you a list of what's coming up on the show. It's as simple as that. So you just join the show. So as we build the show and get bigger and better and everything else, we'll be able to add all sorts of things on that menu as well. But for now, it's just a rundown of the show. So come join the show and be part of the fun. 1-844-2-MAGRAH. Text in. We'll send you the text. You register on that text, and we're up and running. We will not sell your text, by the way, to Ring Doorbell or anybody else. That's going to do it for us on a Wednesday night. Man, three hours. Where'd it go? Our executive director is Alex Hinton. Our engineer tonight is Richard Good. I'm McGraw-Millhaven. Thanks for listening, as always. Thanks for calling. Thanks for the text messages. This is America at Night on Westwood One. The C.J. Pearson Show. Every week, we'll take on the biggest cultural, political, and moral battles in America head on. CJ presents the most passionate voices in the black community. When you're going around and talking to people in actual communities, you get to know what people actually care about. As a black man, why can't I be the first one in my family to graduate from college? Why can't it be me? Shift the way that I think about the world. 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