The Way to College Podcast - Ep 174 - John Olivarez Espinoza - Part 1

! Hi, this is Dr. Osses. I'll leave it with another episode of the Way to College podcast. And one of the fascinating things about this journey has been the opportunity to connect with folks and the opportunity to expand my network. It has been a joy and a blessing. And today's guest is someone who was not originally part of my network. I met today's guest doing some work with another friend, another guest of the podcast. So we did some work year long work last year, going into this year. And so I'm excited to hear his story because, you know, whenever we had a chance, we, we talk a little bit and share a little bit about where he was from and the work that he was doing. But I'm eager to really get into his story today. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to allow him to introduce himself. So, John, would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners out there? Yes. Hi. Good morning, Hose. Hello to everyone out there listening. My name is John Olivares Espinosa. I am a poet and I was born in Indio, California in 1978. I'm 47 years old. And as a, as a poet, I think I will begin by reading a poem. I wrote this poem when I was an undergraduate at UC Riverside. The title is Aking Knees and Palm Springs. One great Thursday during winter break, Albert and I plugged patches of grass from Petunia beds, wide ass swimming pools, within a condo complex. One story stucco blocks for old men who wipe sweat with dollar bills. We spent our school vacations in shivers, raking, trimming and mowing frosted yards with dad. At the eighth hour of kneeling, the weight on my knees was too much for me. For each fistful of grass, I stood up to stretch and let the cold air sneak under my shirt. When dad noticed the weeds slowly filling the can, he turned to me, red faced and said, you're packing down the dirt, kneel on the lawn and weed the beds from there. I said, I am at least entitled to some circulation. I kept the truth from slipping past my chapped lips. How I didn't care about dirt and weeds from a bourgeoisie's garden. These few men I learned about in sociology class who raked in more hundred dollar bills than I did citrus leaves in a day. I wanted to tell dad that these men didn't care if Mexicans spent 10 hours or even a lifetime weeding out the same bed the following week. To only tell him about the hours I felt wasted when we could have rested our sore backs on a bed and drowned in a lake of a much deserved sleep, or sailed through Tierra del Fuego, us standing on the deck and never bowing, not even to the sun, or how he could have learned to read and I would finally show him a poem I wrote. But I didn't because I knew what he would say. It's the only way to put you through school, this oily sweat. I kept my tongue hidden behind my teeth and watched my brother hunched over, tossing weeds and years inside a green plastic can without a word. So that was titled Akeemiz and Palm Springs and it is from my collection of poetry titled The Date Fruit Eligies. And so as I was saying I was born in Indio California, I'm a poet. I am a former university lecturer. I was also a former retention specialist for a first year experience program. And currently I guess I'm a literary consultant or writing consultant or manuscript consultant. I haven't, you know, a literary consultant for geniuses. I haven't, you know, decided on a settled on a title yet. Don, one thank you. So you were the, I guess technically the first poet that I've had on the podcast and definitely, definitely the first to open the podcast with a poem. So thank you very much. John, I'm eager to jump into your story. But if I had to, if you had to identify the starting point for your educational journey, where would that starting point be? You know, I think there are several starting points. I think it's, I think the earliest starting point is when we're in my living room, you know, preschool age and my mom sitting down with me to teach me how to spell my name. You know, I remember that very clearly. I remember the paper and, you know, in front of me and the pencil and my mom going over my name. My, my mom was a teacher's aide for the special education program or a special education class. She was a teacher's aide. She didn't have, she had a high school degree, but she didn't have anything beyond that. I mean, she told me that she had a community college experience, but you know, even, even now years later, I don't know if I misheard or misunderstood, but it's something I would, I'd like to verify. I'm not sure if I could verify that. And I think it's because my mom was a teacher, I took learning serious. So when I, when I started and when I started school, which by the way, I grew up in, I was born in India, but I actually grew up in Mecca, California. And it was this very small town, Southern California, it's in Southern California, very small town. It's still very rural. And, you know, I think it was a town for migrant workers. It was mostly Mexican. It's surrounded by great vines. So you could imagine, you know, but it's funny the agricultural stuff. I didn't, I didn't really feel it that much growing up. My mom is a former agricultural worker, you know, when she was little, I mean, that's a whole other story. So as well as my dad. But in school, I guess I took learning serious. So I paid attention. I, and I, and I, and I got it right. I got what they were trying to teach me. I learned to read, you know, pretty quickly. And, you know, my mom, you know, helped me buy, I guess, buying me books, you know, she never really said no to me buying books. So I remember I always had a books, maybe not a whole lot. But early on books were always part of my life. Children's books, comic books, toys, and then sometimes those toys would come with books like human action figures would come with mini comics or transformers would come with a little profile thing on the back and you know, can read that. So I was always surrounded by that. And then I guess when I, when I turned eight, I guess things, you know, change to get things, things were a little different after that. But what do you mean, what happened at eight that things are different? I guess that. So I was eight, I was a 1986 so I'm growing up in in Mecca, California. And I guess a couple of things happened at once that may have influenced one another is. My dad is undocumented was undocumented so he came across the US without without papers, you know, he was 18. And later my adult life I my mom told me that, you know, my dad would get caught and deported. And then he come right back. And this is, you know, while I'm living in Mecca. And, and when my dad left, like, my mom, my mom was like, Yeah, I never knew he was gonna come back for many reasons, right, you know, he did, does he want to come back. And so it's I don't remember my dad and being gone, you know, I have no memory of my dad being being gone. And so, and, and, but he came back right he came back. So my dad. So, so my dad is a gardener. And he, you know, the the migra would would go around the country clubs. He less pescada, you know, he they just pick some gardener, you know, let me see your paper. And not even that they trick them. You know, they'd be like, you know, you know, where you're from whatever needs say, oh, I'm from here and they're like, Okay, what's your ID number. You know, they're like, Oh, I don't know my ID number, like who has an ID number was like a trick, right. Yeah. And so 1986 comes around and, you know, Reagan gives amnesty. Right. And so my my dad finally has stabilization right he's going to get a get a green card. And we, luckily we own the home we own the very small I mean it's mecca it's not that expensive, but still it was still an achievement to own. So we had a stable living environment, but things started happening at our house like my dad would have a tool stolen from the backyard. I remember he told me he had Chivos in the backyard goats in the backyard and then from one day to next they were gone people steal them. I remember coming home to, you know, bullet holes in our bedroom window. And so he was like kind of done with this uptick in crime, you know, and it's a 1986 so I'm figuring to like I don't know me know maybe cocaine is like me into the, you know, flooding into community or drugs you know, I might have, you know, had happened so he decided to move. We decided to move to India. It was about a half hour drive. It was also going to be closer to work because he had to drive about almost an hour each way you know when he had to go garden. So we moved to a new school or you know we moved to India and we moved in October which meant that when I went to school. The kids were already a month and a half into school and these the my my to be classmates, you know, I'm sure already knew each other. So I went in a month and a half I didn't know anybody, you know, I remember walking into the class and and being told, you know, they were in groups and and being directed to sit in that group and you know, took a seat and the boy next to me he was black and I hadn't I don't think I had ever met a black person in my life at that point. My uncle Joe he was dark skinned I knew what you know I knew black people system from TV, you know, Mr. T Benson, you know, if anyone remembers that. Yeah, but I don't think there were any African Americans in our community and I thought my uncle Joe was was I thought he was African American because he had darker skin and like my family had told me no he's not he's Mexican. And, you know, first thing he so I sit down first thing he tells me is like hey, do you have any garbage for kids. And I'm like, no, what's that. And he takes out this stack of garbage for kids and and the girl in front of me, Michelle she tells them like, you're not supposed to have those are just a band. So it kind of, you know, the in Mecca we had a small community and I think everyone was, you know, pretty well behaved and, and I remember I would always get student of the month, I felt like I always got it and I think it was because I just was quiet and I was like, you know, up. So it's so you know when he brought out these cards that were banned, you know, it was kind of the start of like this is a new, you know, this is a new game here you know, it's a new game here and in the kids I made friends with they were like rough they would chase girls and column names and stuff and so my point is that it was a new environment and I didn't know anyone so it's quite and then when we had our parent teacher conference. I remember the teacher just like ring to me like he doesn't do his work he doesn't follow directions, you know, like everything the bad kid can do like essentially not do is work and I felt so betrayed because that wasn't true like I just didn't know what was going on and no one caught me up you know I had to ask you. Yeah. And, and I think that really kind of, you know, killed my confidence, you know, a bed and I just kind of became your, your average Joe kid, you know, from from there in high school. Wow. You're so a couple of things your story. You know, I think really takes me back, you know, to even, you know, the, the, and, and reminds me of things that I totally forgot about. And you talk about sort of literacy. And so mom, Brian, you books, right? You talked about that. But also I think the literacy that was found in our, in the toys that we had. And so I'd forgotten about the little comic books that came with the he man and the little profiles and I played with both but I also was an avid G. I Joe collector. And so they had the little file cards and I used to cut them out and keep them inside. I totally forgot about that and how like reading was so like it was a part of the toy. You see even. And then I, you know, I appreciate you walking us through that. That transition to into the new community and I think your story. I'm sure will resonate with a lot of folks because for a number of my guests, they talk about like moving schools. And some had immediate success, but then some, a number of them struggled to kind of find their place. And here you said, right, this, this was not necessarily this wasn't who you were as a student, right? But nobody caught you up. You come in, you're behind it. You know, you're trying to find your way. And you describe yourself. You became like this average Joe kid and you said through high school. So this continued all the way until graduation or was there a moment where somebody saw something in you where somebody saw that that you maybe there you had more to offer. But if there was more to you than just the quote unquote average Joe kid. Yeah, what happened? You know, growing up in the 80s and 90s in California, you know, you began to see this rise in in gang activity, you know, gang gangs just became this cool thing to do because you know, when I was a freshman in high school from in 92 93, you know, like the biggest hit was a nothing but a G thing, you know, and I think it made gangs cool. And, and, and, and, you know, I lived in a, in a city where there were gangs, right? And they're gonna be middle school or middle school Jefferson middle school was right across these apartment complex that were a gang. It was Jackson terrace, right? JT and JT. And so, you know, I think so you're gonna have kids who aren't gonna, you know, participate in class. And then you have the super smart kids. And it was like, Dr. Nahira that you had on, you know, talked about, you were like an honors class and it was like two Mexicans and everyone else was white. So in high school, you also saw that kind of segregation. And so, so I was in between. I wasn't a cholo, but I wasn't the smart kid, right? So they kind of, so when I, when I went into high school, we had these three tracks. It was general ed, college prep and honors. And then the honors was the honors where, you know, you're getting an extra point in GPA. And general ed was for like people who just weren't interested in doing school. And college prep was, you know, you're in between like you might go to college, right? So I was in college prep. And so when I was a sophomore, you know, I had an English English class and or my English teacher, I should say, who looked like Steven Segal. That's what people would say. He looks like Steven Segal. And he was just kind of serious, like, I don't know why, but he was very serious, you know, kind of like he had to put up a front because he wasn't going to put up with anyone's, you know, BS kind of thing. And so he assigned one of the books he assigned us was Lord of the Flies. And my brother's three years older than me. So when I was a freshman, he was a senior in high school. So he had read Lord of the Flies. So I had some familiarity with what the book was about. You know, I remember watching the 1963 version of Lord of the Flies, you know, with him. So I was familiar with it. So when I got to read it, when he assigned Lord of the Flies, I was excited about it because I wanted to read it because my brother read it and I wanted to be like my brother. Right. So my family one weekend, my family and I, or my family went to Las Vegas, we drove to Las Vegas. It's only about a three, three and a half hour drive from India. And I read Lord of the Flies on the drive over there and on the drive back, you know, like the week he assigned it, right. So come Monday, I said, Hey, you know, I finished reading the book and he didn't believe me. It's like, it was like, yeah, right, you know, sure, kid, you know, and yeah, he didn't believe me. So we would take these quizzes and I would like, you know, ace the quizzes because I'd read the book. But it took the freaking class like a month, month and a half to read the book. So by like week five, like I don't remember the book. I don't remember the details. So I'm doing like worse on the quizzes. So it probably just reinforced the fact that, you know, I hadn't read the book. And so, but what happened then was, he assigned a short story assignment, we're supposed to write a short story fiction based on a theme and the theme was man versus nature. And, you know, as a kid, I was always fascinated with the paranormal. So I would always watch these paranormal shows on like Fox and then on the higher upper cable channels that would have all these weird stuff like can plants have feelings and then they will have these experiments where like, these needles and probes were stuck into houseplants. And then you had this like researcher yelling at the plant, like the denigrating the plant, like you're not green enough, you know, you're stupid, you're a stupid plant. And like, like, it was like attached to an EKG and like the needle would start moving as if the plant was like, had its feelings hurt, you know, and, and then in one of those segments they talked about like cloning and the ethics of cloning. So I ended up writing the short story about clones and about this man who kept a clone in his basement and what he was going to do with the clone like he was essentially going to harvest, he was, you know, harvesting organs with this clone and he was going to take the, you know, get a new heart from it and this and that, you know, so that was the story that I turned in and like it just when my teacher read it just turned it around like it turned it around for him like oh my god this is like a quote unquote smart kid or this is not your usual kid. And he just opened up to me he's like well, well, you know, I'm writing a novel. I write a novel I work in my novel every day after school I'm like, what really no way like that was so impressive to me you know he's like don't tell anybody but it's about an earthquake and it splits the earth and goes come out of it I'm like oh I'm keeping your secret you know it's like it's such a high concept you know. Yeah, big thing now. So anyways the whole point is that after that he viewed me differently and then he put me honors he upgraded me to honors for my junior year and and then with my English teacher. I guess I was now surrounded by more of a positive learning environment, more stimulating. But I was now with the white kids, you know there was a little bit a few more Mexicans and you know Dr. Nahed I had but you know I was one of the few but I was up and finally around the white kids and I with the gangsters kind of distract you. Yeah. And then that English teacher was pretty pivotal because he also taught cinematography, a phone class. And, you know, that's kind of part of the other journey is just being introduced to film not as just entertainment but there's something more to it, which kind of pushed me in a different direction to. You know it's, it's fascinating to me how you talk about these three tracks right and the general Ed track and kids that aren't doing school and and I think your story kind of just reinforces reminds us right that the kids that aren't doing school. Aren't exposed to a lot of the opportunities that the kids in the honors and maybe even called prep right. And so here you are a teacher recognizes your your gifts and all of a sudden okay I'm gonna upgrade you into the honors. And now, now you get exposed to the cinematography right in the film classes and whatever. And but these kids, you know, the that that aren't right. You know, maybe they would if they had opportunities to take a sit up class or milk class. So thank you. You know, thank you for sharing that you're so you're taking us you're going through this educational journey now you're you're you're having more opportunities john than you previously had. Was junior year senior year a lot of students begin to think about college and there's messaging either from the school or from their P the teachers messaging from home was going to college. Part of that message was that something that you aspire to do and where was that message coming from. You know, my, my parents expected me to go to college. And I got that message even though they, they didn't have college degrees. So, so my, my dad, as I mentioned, you know, he had come over and documented. He got a green card in 1986. And he had a third grade education and no higher and and he was born in one of what the Mexico. And he was he grew up on the ranch. So like education was a privilege for him like he had to stop at third grade like. Like the school was too far for him go and they needed him at the ranch. And so when he was 18 he he left, you know, his, his family to go work here, you know, send money, you know, support. But it's so sad because, you know, one of your, your, our guest talked about his, his brother. I think you asked him like, you know, why did he go to school and brother did and he said was luck. And it's true. You know, my dad was born unlucky because he was born on on branch and poverty. But my dad is an auto didact, you know, he, he is a self learn he's always wanted to learn and he's always wanted the opportunity to, to learn and to be educated and that's what he wanted us to have, you know, like so many Mexican American stories. And he always pushed that, you know, you're going to go to college and I'm a flash forward here but you know very similar to you. When I was 14. My dad took me to work, he took me to work with him and my little brother and my older brother was already working with my dad when he was started he started when he was eight. So he, he, he took us there because you know several reasons but he's like I want you to know what work is so you don't have to do what I do. You know, I want you to, to want more than this. And he also wanted to keep us out of trouble. You know. I got the messaging from from my dad, and I got it from my mom my mom I also I think would have been college bound and she loved learning, but she didn't have the opportunity to because she was a migrant worker. Her, her, her family my grandfather came through with the through the but I said a program. And so they worked the fields when, when they were little and he wanted everyone, and he did not want my mom and my aunts and uncles to get an education he didn't want him to go to school. He wanted them to drop out of school as early as possible to work. And my, my grandfather would kick out my mom out of the house and say you're not coming back to go find work. And then she'd come back eventually I don't think I don't know I'm not sure if she found quote unquote worker now but she'd come back, and she'd find, she'd find her textbooks were torn up by my grandfather. You know, when, when my, when my mom and my uncle, you know, Joe, when they graduated high school they might have graduated at the same time because my uncle Joe may have. I don't know he something happened I or maybe my mom started very late, or was put in school very late when she immigrated so they were like the same grade but when they graduated at the same time. They had to beg my grandparents for a ride to the high school for graduation, and they reluctantly gave my, my aunt, my mom and uncle a ride to graduation and then when they got there this one, they stayed in the truck. They stayed in the car while while my mom and my uncle graduated. So, so my, my parents valued education they wanted that for us so there was like, sort of no doubt that I was going to go to college. It's just that how was it going to happen to me it was just going to sort of kind of I just assumed somebody was going to help me do it my older brother. He went to college he went to UC Irvine so there was this precedent, but a lot of it was luck because essentially what got me into college was not just my parents messaging but also the early outreach programs that they had there which was kind of kind of weird and funny because they still treated me like a average Joe kid. No, you're. So these early outreach programs you have those available to you right and you're expected to go to college your parents want you to go to college. What were you looking at, what were you looking at in terms of different universities, schools. I had zero, I had zero research I had, I had like very little idea so my brother went to UC Irvine. And so I wanted to go to use your vine also. So that was kind of my goal like it's I just want to go to Irvine. I was in the early academic outreach program, like somebody, you know, recommended me they put me in like I didn't, you know, you want to be in this, and I agree like I didn't look out for it they they sought me thank God. Yeah. And they did some check ins, but it was weird because they didn't, you know it wasn't like they were like guiding me holding my hand but one of the things they did was that and why you still participated is is that we would take trips to UC Riverside, which was only about an hour away. And we would take these field trips. And I'm like, that's, that's cool to me miss a day of school, you know, go field trips, you know, hang out. And so I went to UC Riverside on field trips, I think every year for four years. But I didn't want to go to Riverside I wanted to go to Irvine with my, my brother. The only difference was that when we dropped off my brother for move in day like Irvine was just so, so busy there was a lot of activity. Like it was a whole different environment and they looked like a labyrinth to me. Riverside was much quieter. There weren't a lot of people at the time there were a lot of people on campus. And it just was just this campus with little green, not necessarily hills but just you know, green areas and arches and buildings, and it wasn't didn't feel as scary. But I wanted to go to use UC Irvine. And so what happened was that my, my principal at the time said a set up a deal that said, set up a deal with UC Riverside that said anybody any school any student who graduates from Indio High School with the UC requirements right you had these minimal requirements like you had to take in the least chemistry. There were the UC requirements anyone who graduates here with the UC requirements will automatically get into UC Riverside like Barna no questions asked. And so I knew again the messaging got to me that there were these UC requirements. And again I was, I was pretty decent in school right I was a B student. I was good at math, decent math until I got to pre calculus and I hit a wall, I couldn't, I couldn't think that abstractly. And so I, I have, you know, I applied to college and I didn't even know how I did that I don't know if I walked into the counselor's office and I said can I get a UC, can I get a UC application please, like you would get a job application they just handed it to me. And I remember like filling it out in my room after school, like, on my bed with pen and paper like no, no help at all I was just answering the questions. And one of the things that I wish I could go back you know that can go back and tell myself is the essay, because I don't know how I got this messaging. Again, it has to be luck, but somebody told me that you get good grades you get try to get a B average, and then you have to do volunteer work for your junior year. And that way you can write down your application. So, so I did. I was part of the Explorer program. And so I don't know if you know what that is it's sort of like this volunteer program for high school students who are interested in law enforcement. So yeah, I did the Explorer program and so when I sat down to the to do the essays my essay was simply like, like a verbal resume, you know, I want to go here. I volunteered as an explorer. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. I don't even remember what I was doing. And I answered the phone right and they're like, can I speak to John Spinoza. I'm like, oh, this is me rise coincidence speaking like oh hi john you know we want to know if you want to go to the UC if you want to participate in the UC Irvine summer, you know, camp transition camp you know, we want you to do this blah blah blah and I'm like, wait, why, why are you asking me this. And they're like, Oh, oh, no one told you you got into Irvine. I'm like, I did like yeah. I'm like, okay great I'm like yeah I'm interested you know I'll just have to ask my parents blah blah blah and I, I hung up the phone right we finished hung up the phone and I told my parents that was Irvine they were calling about a camp thing you know, they said I got in they're like, congratulations. Two weeks later I get a rejection letter from Irvine. Wow, someone dropped the ball. Yeah they told me you know that got a call to participate in this like you know, transitional program and then I get this rejection letter, I only applied to two UCs, because why bother I wasn't smart enough to do UCLA. I didn't think you know I don't think I want to go to UCLA anyway I wasn't prepared for that. I applied to two colleges, you know Irvine and Riverside only because I'd gone to Riverside, you know, and thank God that the principal set up this deal because I don't know what would have happened to me. Wow. So, you go to Riverside. What was that transition like then. There you are given all of your experiences in high school. What was the transition to college like for you. The good thing about Riverside like I said I had visited it. So I had this familiarity. They, they, when I told them I was going they set me up with this orientation I'm sure all the colleges have it. They call it bear facts orientation. You spend a weekend in the, in the dorms, you know you do tours and one of the pivotal things they do is they actually sign you up for classes in the fall. And then one of the undergrads there like sits down with you and ask your interest and signs you up and, and, you know, and they were going to go easy on me like you, you know, I didn't I didn't. Oh, during that weekend you take your, your writing tests and your math test. And I like did not place. I did not get into that English one a standard. I got into the remedial there are two remedial classes five a and five B, and I got to the highest one of the remedial five B. And then like the math I was good at math but I hadn't taken math in like two or three years so I got like the lowest of low. They're like you got to go back to the basics and just study on your own like it was called individual math. It was like a self paced thing. Yeah, so I was shocked that I didn't pass the writing test and so they so they gave me like three classes and you know what so one was writing one was film introduction to film and the other one I might have been psychology. And it was, it will my butt I was not prepared, like I thought I was going to be. I, I skated the buy, you know, I mean, I think I might have gone to low B and the English course. Then look at me now writing consultant. You know, the film I got like a B but it film helped me so much with the writing. It was a rough transition and and I was also kind of a strict family so I wanted to go out and have fun like I didn't prioritize studying as much as I should have. You know, I knew I couldn't drop out I knew I couldn't fail, because bad things would have happened you know, I would have gone home you know, gone a yelling maybe a whooping from my dad so I knew I had to survive somehow. My academic outreach continued my freshman year so I had to check in with a with the an undergrad who worked for them, and she just said how you're doing. Fine. Everything okay great. All right, you may leave. And that was it, but just having that minor accountability really helped though, like those programs like it really work. Work for me. So, I think that was the first year of college. A lot of students have an idea of the things that they want to study and what they'd like to major in potential careers they'd like to pursue. What was your major and what is it that you at that time that were you thinking about doing. Yeah, so I always hopped around with career options and so, you know, when someone asked me what my major was and I don't want to get into it I'd say I'm undeclared. But when I came into Riverside I wanted to be a film director. So that's what I told people and that's what people knew me by. You may as my close friends, especially my residence hall. They knew me as the guy who wanted to make movies like I wanted to be a movie director. But there was no there was no film program at you see Riverside there were some, you know, art production. It was called video art. That was one of the first classes I took was video art, you know, you shoot on like super eight. And then there were the film theory classes, you know. And so I always was kind of on the creative side I wanted to do something creative I wanted to be a comic book artist in my junior year also wanted to be a detective and FBI agent. That's why I was in the Explorer program I remember being 17 and calling the Palm Springs FBI office and asking for an application. And they sent they sent me an application but I knew that was not going to be for me because I didn't meet like the like the height requirements or even the vision requirements and all this years later one of my friends now her husband's a former FBI agent they're like they would have taken you in at 18 you could have done office work man you could have worked for the FBI I'm like, I'm like, I don't know. I, my senior year I fell in love with movies and I was watching, you know, I was almost done graduating, you know, everything was kind of coming easy to me so I had a lot of time so I was watching a lot of movies and watching movies on the serious way so I wanted to be a filmmaker but I didn't know how that was going to happen I was going to make it happen I didn't know how because there was no major. And then somebody gave me the idea that if you want to make movies you got to learn how to make money and raise money so be a business major. No. So I think I, I, I declared business for like two weeks. And I said, no way and you know why because of the math. I had in past the math. And one of the reasons that attracted me to use your website was that how I was kind of talked into it a bit with the college counselors in a, in high school was that it had a creative writing major. And it was the only you see with the creative writing major so to me the backup. My fallback was creative writing, because at least I could tell stories and creative writing didn't require you to take math only there was required to take one computer science course and that fulfilled your math requirements. So in a way I had a, I had to take it. And so I got out of business I think I might have declared business and then I just declared creative writing. And I just said, I'll figure it out somehow. You know, how to be a filmmaker somehow. The, um, well, the, so you graduate with a degree in creative writing. Correct. Yeah. And sociology I double major. Okay, creative writing. I fell in love with sociology and and, and, and, you know, inequality and whatnot. So I was, I was thinking, sorry, I was taking summer school. I was going to go to every summer there because if I didn't take summer school I had to go work with my dad. So it was my way of avoiding work. And it was also my way to make up classes that I didn't pass, you know, I think you know I had a doing past no pass on a few science classes, and I got to see minus and see minus no pass I had to make it up somehow. But I ended up, yeah, just doing a double major so creative writing sociology. Wow. I have a lot of a lot of kids, actually, some of my guests have spoken recently about after college and sort of the, the rude awakening that they experienced after college because they, they, you know, I think a lot of like a lot of students but like, well, I'm going to graduate and I'm supposed to have a job, or at least the job, it's going to be easy to find a job. Post graduation. What was that like for you? Did you find work immediately? I went to grad school. And why did you do that? Because what else was I going to do? I was coming up to graduating, I declared creative writing, I got most of my core classes done so I just had to do creative writing and sociology classes. So my junior year, I was starting to take the creative required courses to create writing, and I took a poetry class. I wanted to be a fiction writer because I thought, okay, if I can be a fiction writer, maybe I can give to UCLA or USC screenwriting program. I didn't know how I was going to do that, but I figured that they were comparable. I wanted to be a fiction writer, but the requirement was you had to take at least one class from the other genre and this case, it was poetry. So let me get this out of the way. I'd written poetry, but I didn't take it serious. And I, and I took a poetry class. Again, I paid attention to teacher what he was trying to teach us. I did all right enough for him for me to catch his attention. His name is Christopher Buckley. He was a poet. And thank God I had him for a teacher because he knew what he was doing. He knew how to teach. You know, he was the real deal. So he noticed that, you know, this Chicano guy kind of writing about some, some stuff like this poem I read, I wrote in his class. And he kind of like, you know, it's semester or quarter ended and I went to see him about something about my portfolio and he's like, you're taking my advanced class next, next quarter, right? Yeah, I couldn't say no to authority figures. So I said, yeah, I will. I didn't wasn't planning to, but I said I would and now I had to stick to my word. So I took him for poetry at advanced, you know, I got, you know, right over the coals for my poetry. And then he taught other classes like creative nonfiction. So I took that. So he became familiar with me. He was the mentor, you know, that you talk about your other guests, you got to find a mentor. Yeah, I found mine through, through my major and, you know, I caught his attention from there. He guided me to, he's the one who encouraged me to that grad school and creative writing was an option. I was hesitant because I wanted to go to film school, but, but he knew his stuff. And then I looked at the reality like film school is not a, you know, that's not going to happen. I have a better chance. You know, under his guidance, I applied for grad school. He told me what to write. He told me where to apply. He told me that that can get a paid for. He told me to that I got into one more school I can start a bidding war with financial aid. He knew it all. And he guided me. I got a I got a big grant before I graduated. A big writing grant. I was published Gary Soto, the famous Chicano poet, published me publish my senior thesis under the Chicano Chop-Up series is all luck. You know, mostly just luck that it happened that way. Luck in the sense that you took this teacher and he recognized potential in you and mentored you and guided you. It wasn't necessarily strategy on your part. Right. It wasn't like, I need to get that class. I love that. Let me ask you, you know, because some of my guests have also talked about the idea of work and you and I talked about this before jumping on the call, right? And how our parents, you know, I had one guest actually several that talked about their parent. They grew up as migrant farm workers working outside, working with their hands and how their parents, their aspirations were always that the kids would work inside in air conditioning. Yeah. Right. And so here you are, you're majoring in creative writing, you're going to grad school. Did your parents ever ask you? And so what are you going to do for work? What kind of work are you going to do? Did you all have those conversations? We had that conversation and I was, and I remember having that conversation and I was, you know, I'm kind of embarrassed. You know, I cannot remember if when I had the conversation with my parents, if it was me telling them I'm going to apply to graduate school or I had already gone in. But I told them that I was going to go to graduate school or apply to graduate school in creative writing. And I was kind of embarrassed about that, you know, because I think like a lot of Mexican Americans, you know, their parents, you know, were like, you know, why don't you be a lawyer or a doctor? Because those are the most easiest, you know, successful locations that you can identify, right? There's never anything between. There's never like, why don't you become a film archivist at UCLA or at the American Film Institute? You know, that would be a great job for you. Like movies, right? It's like you're either a doctor or lawyer and because I was coming to them, now I remember one time I think I might have told my dad I'm thinking of majoring in business and he was so excited. And then that, you know, that didn't happen. So I feel like I was going to disappoint them by saying I'm going to go study in grad school and I remember telling them either they will pay for it all and you don't have to pay for anything. And I don't, and again, I remember I had gone in and told them that I got a full scholarship that first year. But I was embarrassed and it was the exact opposite. They were so happy. They're so proud. You know, because I guess I was ashamed that I wasn't telling them I was going to med school, right? Or law school, but they were just so happy and so proud that I was able to get in graduate school and then have it all paid for. You know, the other two years was up in the air, but at least the first year was paid for. What came after grad school, John? Yeah, that was, that was a tough one. I call it post-MFA. You know, I got a, so in grad school I got a Master's of Fine Arts in creative writing poetry. I did four, it's a three-year program I did four years because I was on the fellowship and the fellowship paid for two years and I got it like my second year and I said I'll stay here next year to take advantage of the money and the courses. Man, I think that the year after graduate school was just a lot of, I don't know, floundering is the right word, but I went to Arizona State University in Tempe. I was always among hot weather. I wanted to go somewhere cooler, so I moved to Northern California. I moved to Sunnyvale, right next to San Jose. And at the time I wanted to apply or I had planned to apply to the Stanford University's Wallace Stegner Creative Writing Fellowship. It was a two-year program, non-degree conferring program, but you got to study with great poets and it was all paid for. Tuition was paid for to give you a stipend. I'm like, this is perfect. And maybe the closer I am to Stanford, the more likely I am to get it. And so I had applied, now that I think about it, I had applied to a few postgraduate fellowships and I didn't get anything. So I was in San Jose, a very expensive place with the Creative Writing Degree. And it was very tough to find a job. No one was hiring. I think that kind of had a psychological effect on me and what an MFA meant because no one was hiring. And they weren't going to hire you with a MFA degree. But I got a job. I got an office job because I thought an office job would help me become a writer, right? Just go to work in the day and then right at night. They didn't happen that way. But I ended up going back and teaching at the National Hispanic University. So I was teaching writing composition courses with mostly Latino students, which was a whole other thing. That was my introduction of dreamers, secret society of dreamers. John, I want to be mindful of our time. We're about an hour, we're about an hour in. And I'm going to ask if you'd be up for doing a part two. Because I feel like we're just getting into, because I'm running up on time here for me too. And so, and we're just getting into your career. And I want to hear about the secret society of dreamers. And I want to hear about, you know, everything to kind of to this point, and particularly about finding your way professionally. Because it, like I think so many of my guests, it's kind of the circuitous route, right? It's not a never straight line. And so I really, I really want to tease that out. So can I have you, can we set up a second part? Yeah, yeah, we can. We can. Okay. I'm like, I must have been yapping away because I felt like we just started. Like you're saying, right, we're getting warmed up. Yeah, and so we're just getting into it. But what I'll do is, and depending on the on the length of the second part, I may decide to post it in two parts. Yeah, kind of like a part one, part two. So here's what we'll do, John. We'll go ahead and close here. And we'll, you know, for our guests, I'll invite and I'll invite my guests to come back and check out the second part. John, thank you. Thank you for for for walking us through and sharing and thank you for the poem. It was beautiful. And yeah, thank you. Thank you for your time. You're welcome. And thank you for inviting me. I guess I yapped off. There's so much more. No, yeah, no, I know I could feel it coming. But I was like, oh man, I'm, you know, I want to I want to make sure we give it sort of the time that it deserves. So, so we'll do is we'll in there so far. Our listeners out there. Thank you again for tuning in. Thank you to my guest. Make sure you subscribe, rate, follow all of that good stuff and we'll see you again soon on the way to college podcasts. Bye bye. You