E289: How To Break Generational Curses and Overcome Anger w/Lisa Bevere | Lila Rose Show

One day, Lila, my son came down the stairs, and I no longer saw this beautiful two-year-old child. I saw, this is an enemy. This is the one that is keeping me from getting anything done. Here I was, a born-again pastor's wife, getting ready to sleep. I blamed my genetics. I blamed that my parents were divorced. I blamed the fact that I'd lost an eye to cancer when I was five. But in that moment, I sensed the Holy Spirit say, you should not live by what was done to you, but what was done for you. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Lila Rose Show. Today's episode is with one of my favorite people, Lisa Bevere, and we talk about an issue that is very personal. It's motherhood and how to deal with impatience and anger in motherhood, but it also I think applies to any relationship, and I think it's profoundly helpful. A huge thank you to everybody who has been subscribing to the show. I'm so grateful for the community that we are building here. If you're not already subscribed, make sure to hit that subscribe button and leave this video a like if you enjoyed this episode. Also, we've got our Patreon community growing. A huge thank you to everybody who's supporting the mission of the show. You can check out our Patreon at patreon.com slash Lila Rose show. When you become a subscriber over there, you get access to behind the scenes content as well as ad free episodes. And if you become a paid subscriber on a monthly basis, then you get access to 30% off all of our merch. And if you become an annual subscriber, you get your choice of one free piece of merch, your pick. I hope that you enjoy. Lisa Bevere, welcome back to the podcast. I am so glad this worked out. Me too. It's like such a treat to get to talk to you. I feel like you're my Italian mother and I have an Italian mother. You're my other Italian mother. I'm your Italian godmother. Italian godmother. Yes, I'll be the godmother. I love that. I love that. And every time you come on the show, people are so touched. Every time you speak with us, people are so brought closer to our father in heaven. So thank you for your ministry. Well, you know how much I love you. Thank you. And I felt like such an immediate connection with you. I was telling my team member that drove me over here, I said, it was the way Lila spoke with courage and kindness. I said there was clarity in the midst of nuance and confusion. And I said, then I'm like following her on Instagram or Twitter or something. Because it was back when it was not X yet. And I turn around and there you are. And we're both at a women's conference. And I'm like, it's you. That was six years ago. It was a while ago. Wow. Before the pandemic. Yeah. And then we just found we had one heart. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And we've been on the show and we've talked about some things. But one issue we have not discussed on the show at all yet. and one that personally is important to me. I need to work on. And we were just talking about one of my best girlfriends who is now a mother of, she's going on her third and she messaged you. She never had met you like a decade ago. Yes. And ran into in an airport. One of my best friends, Stephanie Gray, who's also been on the show. Yes. Was asking you a question about this very topic. Yes. Because you've written on it and lived on it. And so the topic is- Been a victim of it. The topic is anger. Yes. Impatience, anger. fury. Before that, though, for people that haven't gotten to meet you yet, just give us a little snapshot on Lisa Bevere. Yeah. So, well, I was raised by very broken parents, like so many people. And my parents were married, divorced, remarried again, divorced again, very, very much a household where my mom was broken, my dad was broken, and two people that were broken got together and just to magnify the brokenness. And I had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ in all of, like, I just had never heard He loved me. And when I was 21, the man I am now married to shared the gospel with me on Purdue's campus. And when I heard about the love of God, when I heard about the mercy of God, I said, whatever this thing is, I want to do it right now. and Lila at 21 years of age, I just surrendered my life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. And I said, God, I will do, I will be, I'm 100% yours. And that was the beginning. And I never ever even knew there was ministry. I just wanted to love the Lord. And I think, to be honest with you, I think that started when I was very young. I think I was probably five and six years of age when I really started to just cry out to the Lord and not even just like that childlike prayers. And then I married that man and I've been married 43 years. I have four beautiful sons. I'm expecting my 10th grandchild. So I'm so excited. Five boys, five girls. Jessica and Austin. Christian just had a baby. She has like a little girl that's one and a half named Tatum and she's a cute little spicy thing. So who's having that? Jessica and Austin. You have not had chance. That's the one I haven't met then. You would have met her when we met just in passing, and they didn't have any kids yet. So yeah, so we're so excited, and it's another little girl. So we'll have five girls, five boys. But it's redemption of God. And I am so thankful for the goodness of God in my life. My mother did not have a mother who knew how to be a mother to her. She was abandoned, raised by her grandmother, and then kidnapped when she was 14, according to my mom, by her mom. But so today, people are so angry. And I don't think people understand. I didn't start in the ministry because I had gone to seminary or ever even wanted to be in the ministry. but what happened, Lila, was all I wanted to do was love my husband well, raise my children well. And I had my first son and I was so in love with Addison, who is raising beautiful kids, amazing, father of four. I had Addison and I thought, I love being a mother. I got pregnant with my second son. I was like, this is amazing. I decided to stay home with my kids. I said, I'm going to stay home. I'm going to raise them. I'm going to be that mom. And when I had my second son, I thought I will never brush my teeth before noon again. I was like, what have I done? I found myself so frustrated. We had one car. My husband would go to work at the church every day. I'd be like, pray for me, pray for me. So you were just left at home, no car? I was left home with two kids, no car. Did you have any community? No, not really. Not really. No, I didn't. And so now I'm home with kids and my husband's coming home every day and the house is a mess. And he's like, what did you do all day? And I remember thinking, I don't know, but I've been busy. The kids are alive. Well, and John was a youth pastor. And so people would call us for, they would call me. I was the one home. You know, I'm a postpartum breastfeeding mother. People are calling me. They're like, you know, my life's falling apart. I'm like, my life's falling apart. I'm like, what is going on? And my son, who had been so good about taking naps, now when I had that second child, he did not want to take a nap. He was going to miss something. Everything had to be equal. If I was kissing the baby, I had to kiss him. You have multiple boys. And so now those were phones attached to walls. They were not portable. My son would hear the phone ring. He would jump off his bed. I would grab a Spanx spoon. I'd be waving at him like, get back on your bed, get back on your bed. And he was like, I see that spoon, but I'm not getting back on my bed. And it was just like back and forth, back and forth. And I remember one day, Lila, my son came down the stairs and I no longer saw this beautiful two-year-old child. I saw, this is an enemy. This is the one that is keeping me from getting anything done. And I grabbed my son and I stormed up the stairs. And I remember in my head, it was like this crazy chaos. And I lifted him up eye level. And I thought, what can I do? So he stops getting off his bed. He stays on this bed so I can just take a shower. So I just don't flank the test again. And I lifted Addison up eye level. And in my mind, I thought, slam him into the wall and put him down on the bed. Then he'll know, stay. and I was just getting ready to do that when I saw something in my son's eyes I'd never seen before. He was not afraid of what I was going to do. He had no idea what I was going to do. He was afraid of me. And when I saw the terror in my son's eyes, I remembered my own growing up in an emotionally and physically abusive household. And every time my mom hit me, every time she slapped me, every time she kicked me, I made myself a promise. I will never treat my children this way. But here I was, a born again pastor's wife, getting ready to slam my son against the wall and Lila, I broke. Up until that point, I had made excuses for my anger. Up until that point, I would say, listen, I'm Sicilian. I'm passionate. You can't have passion in the bedroom and not get it in the kitchen. This is who I am. I would tell my husband, don't push me. You've pushed me too far. I blamed my genetics. I blamed that my parents were divorced multiple times. I blamed that I thought I was part Apache. I guess they've taken that away from me. Now I'm part Arab somehow. So I blamed everything. I blamed the fact that I'd lost an eye to cancer when I was five. I had this entire resume of excuses. But in that moment, I realized my parents aren't here. My husband's not here. It's not a demonic attack. It's me. I have a real problem with anger. and I put my son down on the bed and I said, I'm so sorry I scared you. I didn't hurt him. I put him down. I said, I am so sorry I scared you. And Lila, I went downstairs and I wept into the carpet and I stopped making excuses. And I sensed the Holy Spirit say, because you're no longer justifying this, I'll take it out of your life. He said, what you justify you by. You say, I've earned the right to be this way because of what was done to me. And he said, you should not live by what was done to you, but what was done for you. And then this memory came to me. You know, my mom, she did the best she knew to do. But there was an incident when I was seven, where my mom slammed me against a wall, beat the living daylights out of me. A babysitter showed up at our house while my mom had me on the bed, straddled, hitting me back and forth. My mom was so ashamed that she told the babysitter that I'd almost let my brother die, which was not even true. She was just so ashamed. And I made a vow that even when my mom asked me to forgive her later. I forgave her of everything but the one. That one time. The one time. And the one thing I didn't forgive my mom for was the thing I almost did to my son. And what's so crazy is, Lila, I heard, call your mom. And I'm weeping. And I said, Mom, I need to ask you to forgive me. And she said, for what? I said, you know, you said you were sorry. When you became a Christian, And you said, I'm sorry, I didn't raise you the way I should have. I was abusive. Will you forgive me? And I said, I said, sure, sure. I forgive you. I forgive you. And he said, but mom, I hid one in my heart because I thought I'm going to hold this one until she proves herself. I just, mom, I almost hurt Addison. And I said, I don't know what it was like for you to be married to an alcoholic, to be married to someone that was unfaithful. I have a husband who loves me. I have a husband who loves God, and I almost hurt my son. Will you forgive me? And my mom said this to me, Lila, and it was so amazing. She said, you know, that's the only thing I've never been able to forgive myself for. Well, there is a reason for that. The sins that we retain, they are retained. And I had been like that wicked servant, forgiven the unpayable debt. And then I grab my fellow servant and I'm like, no, you're going to pay me what you owe. I'm not forgiving you. And when we don't forgive, we're actually doomed to live a life where we either repeat those mistakes or live in a pattern that is unhealthy and that mistake continues to control us. And so that literally was the beginning of any ministry I did that actually ever changed anybody's life. I remember I would study scriptures and I'd be like, okay, God, here's my message. And he'd be like, I want you to tell people how I set you free from anger. When you owned your mistake, it no longer owns you. And the power of forgiveness. I don't think we understand the power of forgiveness. And now I have four sons and my oldest son, who I would have completely isolated myself from lives down the street and has his has me very much involved in his children's life and my youngest son and his beautiful wife christian same thing did you know that your health insurance plan likely covers abortion abortifacients and other unethical services most people have no idea that they're footing the bill for procedures that go directly against their beliefs that's why i'm so excited to share about presidio health care the nation's first pro-life Christian health insurance company. If you're in Texas, visit presidiocare.com. That's P-R-E-S-I-D-I-O care.com to get your quote today. If you're in another state, you can join the wait list and check out Presidio's nationwide pro-life provider tool at pro-life providers.com. Help bring life affirming healthcare to the rest of the country. Go to presidiocare.com. 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There's so much power in what you're sharing because you're just opening up and a lot of people, they will not share their darkest moments or their worst moments. So first of all, thank you for making that. I mean, that is such a big part of everything that you do is you're willing to share and people really connect because they know, oh, I've been this way or I've had this struggle or whatever it is. I want to get very practical with this and also get more of your sense on the spiritual reality of it. So I know as a young mother, myself, I've got three kids that I lose my patience far more easily than I thought that I would. I typically felt I was a pretty patient mom or a pretty patient person, excuse me, before I had kids. But when you are, when on like a human level, if you're sleep deprived, if you're- And I was all of that. Oh, I'm sure you were. And you were isolated and you felt overwhelmed and you didn't have a good support system. And, and, you know, somebody could say, well, those are all excuses. You shouldn't, it's not fair ever to get over the top angry with your kid. Right. Because you're the adult in the room. And so, but, but I want you to kind of walk us through how you saw that, because what is the difference? Let's just talk maybe more about, first of all, just anger as you understand, as you see it. So there's impatience. Yes. Like the quick, like, you know, go to your room or like, you know, stop that. Stop doing that, your brother. Right. Like even this morning, one of my sons was kind of acting up with another and I was, you know, more curt in my tone. You know, this is a smaller offense, but I could have been more loving or flat at least with my tone to not like let the emotional energy of the room go up because he was already overacting. Like, don't do that to your brother. As opposed to don't do that to your brother. So there's like the impatience over here. And then there's like the flow, but full blown anger, abuse. Well, there's anger. Then there's rage. Then there's wrath. Those are the three stages. And anger. And impatience, number one, would you say? Anger, I would say anger comes with an impact. It can come. But the Bible says, be angry and sin not. So, or in your anger, do not sin. So, it's not wrong to be angry, but it has an edge if it's impatience or harsh. Right. You know, and then rage. So, I used to describe it as like, anger is a heightened sense that something is not right. and then rage is like all of a sudden you put a gun on the table, and as soon as that gun is on the table, everything starts to change, and then wrath is when you actually shoot the gun. You know, it's when you take the part of God where you say, I'm going to do vengeance, or I'm going to—but for me, I did not know how to be angry and constructive, and so it's not wrong to have anger. It's wrong to be destructive. And for me, I called my mom and I, of course, as soon as I confessed it to our heavenly father, I was forgiven. But when I called my mom, that was when she was healed. The Bible says, confess your sins one to another that you might be healed. But when John came home, I confessed what almost happened to him because I wanted accountability, I said, hey, I almost hurt Addison today, and it scared me. And John, I realized I have not forgiven my mom. And this anger that I have is because of unforgiveness. And unforgiveness and this unbelief that God is good for everybody, but maybe not for me, has put fear constantly in my life. And anger is a partner with fear when it's unhealthy. And so anyway, I- How did he respond? Just curious when you shared that. He was like, wow, okay. But since I hadn't, he was like, all right, what are we going to do? And I said, I'm going to pray every single morning before I got out of bed that I would be quick to listen, slow to wrath, slow to speak. That these would be things because I was quick to speak, slow to listen, quick to wrath. I mean, I was like, and John would make fun of it. He would say, and it kind of like, it started in my marriage because now all of a sudden, before I even had kids, it started in my marriage, but I never, and I felt okay about taking out my anger on my husband. He's an adult. He pushed me. He annoyed you. He pushed you. Yeah, he pushed me. Is he a more steady personality so it didn't like turn into a screaming? John is intense. No, John's intense as well. He's intense, but did he, would he get angry back at you? Yes. It would just go like this. But literally, this was kind of a turning point for us. I had to have my second son yet. Again, I'm having to go back to my memory bank. We were in a little apartment, and I remember thinking, God, there's something going on. I don't like the way I'm acting. And so it was New Year's Eve, and I cried out to God. And I said, there was a beautiful worship song. It went, take me into the holy of holies, take me in by the blood of the lamb, take me into the holy of holies, take your coal, cleanse my lips, here I am. And I was like, God, I want you to excavate my life. And I was like, that was a weird choice of words. But I was like, just anything, anything deep and hidden that is causing these responses, I want you to excavate my life. And instead of things getting immediately better, instead of an angel appearing to me and doing a call, I went from having like an anger, like full blown feeling like I'm shaking from once a month to every single week to almost feeling like I'm on edge at all times. And this was after the prayer? No, this is after the prayer before I had my second son. Yeah. So it was kind of like a process had started. And so I have this prayer. I only have one child at the time. I have this prayer of not, he's not suffering any of the anger. It's just my husband. He's just getting. And so I would tell John, don't push me. You pushed me. Yes, I shouldn't have said that, but you pushed me. So I remember I was in our kitchen and John kept saying, what is going on? What is going on? Why are you acting like this? And I had a plate in my hand and I took the plate, Lila, and I threw it like a frisbee at him. And he like ducked to the side, missing decapitation. And I broke the apartment window. Like the plate went out the window that was closed, shattered the window, went into the yard. And we both like just looked at each other. He was like, you just broke the window. You just broke the window at our apartment. And I said, oh my gosh. And he said, I'm not going to lie for you. I'm not going to say, I'm not going to. And I was like, listen, I don't want you to lie, but I'm not going to be here when you tell the truth. And so I literally go out and I'm praying. I'm like, oh God, I can't believe I threw a plate at my husband. I can't believe I did this. Oh God, please, you're all powerful. Just reassemble the window, do something. And it's just ridiculous. And so I'm gone. Maintenance comes. John is in the bathroom. My two-year-old son opens the door. The maintenance guy comes in. He sees this broken window and he's like, whoa, whoa, what happened. He pulls the sofa out. And when he pulls the sofas out, one of my son's Tonka trucks was behind the sofa. And he thought my two-year-old son had broken the window. And so John walks out and the guy's got the Tonka truck in his hands and he's looking at the broken window. And he's like, listen, this happens all the time. He just put plastic over it. And John was like, started to say, no, it wasn't my two-year-old. It was my 30-year-old wife that did this. And he was like, no, say no more. Say no more. Just put the glass. And John was like, I said no more. And so then I was kind of like, well, see, see, like God covered for me. Oh, I started feeling justified. John shouldn't have pushed me. This was not really my fault. I got to ask you. So I think this is such a key to a lot of this. You saw stuff like that growing up. Did you see your mother through a place growing up? I threw, yes. I mean, my mom threw me growing up. Yeah. So you saw. And my dad would just leave. Okay. My dad would just go out to the bars. And so, so that was like a acceptable way to experience. I never saw healthy anger. I never. And communication. You didn't see healthy communication. How could you? No affection, no healthy communication. So, but I think what's so interesting about even that story and this topic is. The physical reaction. Well, the physical, you were trained because our kids, how we were raised as kids, right? Yeah. Is what we can easily just do as adults. We follow what's been modeled. Even if we, in our minds say, we don't want to be that way. And actually, if you like resent your parents, like you were saying and how they raised you, you don't want to be that way. I would argue you're more likely to become like them because you're not operating in forgiveness and freedom. You're operating in, or, you know, just like anger, actually ongoing anger. I think about my childhood, my mother is Italian, 100%, half Sicilian, half regular, regular Italian. That's the thing you bring. And how she did, how she lived was even better than her mother and her grand. Like there's this long line of these Italian women that were out of control. They were out of control. They were amazing, like beautiful, generous, love being passionate. But, you know, control was something that was generational, had to be worked on. And it was also had to be a conversion experience. Like my grandmother didn't have the relationship with God that my mother had, right? And then, you know, now my mother can pass on that deposit of faith to me. But I bring that up because I think just helping people even understand how did I get here? if someone listening is struggling with anger or has anger that comes out of nowhere like where did that anger come from yeah i saw it i was the victim of it i still have a memory Lila of being in a high chair and watching my parents physically my mom physically attack my dad And watching my parents in this fight and me just sitting in a high chair and just seeing this and being like, I think these are crazy people. And he wouldn't hurt her, but she would hurt him. He would not hurt her. Yeah. So she was abusive, but he wasn't. She was abusive. He was abusive with alcoholism. Yeah, he would abandon. He would just tap out. But, and my mom, what was crazy is my mom was, the way it was set up where my mom would be physically abusive of me, but she would imply that she was being abusive because if my dad knew, then he would be even more abusive. And my dad walked in one time on my mom when she was just wailing on me and she didn't hear him come in. And he came up behind her and grabbed her arms because she was like slapping me in the face. And he came up and grabbed her arms and said, what are you doing? And that was the first time he realized what had been going on. He didn't even know. He had no idea. And he said, don't you ever hit her again. I think I was 15 at the time. Yeah, so he was like- She would hide it from him. Yeah, he never, he never saw it. He never, my dad never physically abused me. me. Never. You know, he, he would, he was a scary person. Like, you know, if he said something, you're going to listen to him, but he never physically abused me. It was my mom. And again, you know, she had borderline personality disorder, which is something when you're abandoned, a lot of people end up with that. And she, you know, she, she just didn't, she didn't get the help she needed. She didn't get the love she needed. And so like, was she physically abused? No, I don't think so. I think she was just abandoned. No. That's also an interesting point. Like I was saying, well, a lot of people who are abused, they abuse or they're facing or they're angry, but not always. Yeah. And my dad was physically abused and he didn't ever abuse me. He was beaten by his stepfather and he never, he never beat my brother. He never beat me. He just left. And I think he was like, I don't trust myself. I'm just going to tap out. But, you know, it's so true what you're saying. People follow what they model, what's been modeled for them, but you have to still do the work. And I think you can do all the counseling, but if you do not have a relationship with the counselor, with the Holy Spirit, if he does not like give you mercy, because this is what's going on in me. I'm like, if I was, let's say I was 20 years younger or 30 years younger now, and I heard, you know, had the same situation, I would be cutting my parents off. I would tell my mom, you're toxic. I don't want anything to do with you. I wouldn't forgive her. I wouldn't bring her into my family. Now, did I protect my kids? She never, of course, she never did anything but love my children. But, you know, there was like, I had to have some boundaries. I had to say, hey, this is how this family acts. We don't talk like this. We don't attack each other. One of my sons actually told my mom, you don't talk to my mom like that. I was like, yay. You know, there was like, we had to change some stuff, but we didn't cut her off. Was that in part because she apologized? She did apologize. Okay. So she definitely apologized. So it wasn't like a situation because these cutoff stories are very interesting. And sometimes I think they can be necessary to have the boundary. If it's an addiction, if it's an abusive situation. But it sounds like she was self-aware about what she did. Somewhat. Okay, it was kind of halfway there. So a year before my mom died, my mom looked at me and she said, Lisa, it's not your fault. And I said, what's not my fault? because I mean, I felt like I was the one that got blamed for everything. I said, what's not my fault? And she said, I just never bonded with you. I was like, okay, that would have been so helpful. But there's, you know, when you have that borderline personality disorder, they say they choose one child to love and then they like, so I was the safe one. So she would attack my relationship because I was the safe one. I'm the one that took care of her. We're the ones that like put her in a, you know, bought her an apartment, like took care of her. And my brother was the one that she adored, but he was not kind to her. So it was very, like everything was very weird and very unhealthy. Is that a BPD thing? I think it is. You take for granted the ones that care for you and you lash out at them, but then the ones that are not safe or distant, then you're more likely to be appreciative. Protective of that relationship. Yeah. It's very, it's very weird. It's very weird. And people can get free from that. But again, I believe that my mom died knowing that she was loved by me, loved by God, loved by my brother. And so, but again, at the end of the day, forgiving is one of the most supernatural things we can do. I think it's possibly more difficult to forgive people that we think don't deserve it than it is to like pray for people and see them get healed. I mean, that's, but forgiving my mom, forgiving my dad. My dad, again, was just more the abandonment thing. But forgiving my mom and being an agent of healing for her. like we ended up like giving her a job in our organization and she would just call people and pray with them. And she was amazing with other people. She would just like call them and pray for them. And she just loved that so much. But you know, I don't know where I would have been, Lila, if I hadn't forgiven my mom. I might be divorced. I might have children that don't want anything to do with me. You're just gone down that path. Yes. On this show, we support moms and babies in everything that we do, including how we shop. Everylife.com has premium diapers, baby products, and women's products. We use their diapers in our household and they're made from the highest quality materials, are supremely soft and breathable, and are leak proof for up to 12 hours. When you sign up for Everylife.com's Changing Lives Club, you get 15% off every order, a free tote, an exclusive online community. And after your third order, you can select a church or a pregnancy resource center and every life will donate a month's supply of diapers on your behalf. 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When you check it out, you'll find classics like Strawberry Shortcake, Babar, Paddington, as well as new shows like season two of Iggy and Mr. Kirk starring Kirk Cameron. And right now, just for my listeners, you can try Brave Plus free for seven days. Go to braveplus.com slash Lila. That's braveplus.com slash Lila for a free seven-day trial. With your mother, you said she was abandoned. Yeah. Can you share more what her story was? Very, very interesting. You know, I do believe that there are demonic things that happen in families and patterns that the enemy tries to propagate. So my grandmother got pregnant with my mom, 19, married my mom's father, divorced him, remarried him, and divorced him. Now, interesting, my parents were married, divorced, remarried each other, and divorced. I was like, you know, we're stopping this pattern. But so my grandmother was born in a tiny little town in Charleston, Illinois, ran away to New York and became a like buyer for women's wear daily. She was the very first woman buyer. Back then, men were buying foundations, which is like women's bras, underwear, slips. My grandmother got that job. She would come back and visit my mother. But my mother thought her mother was maybe like this movie star that just came and visited her every once in a while. Didn't even really understand that she was her mother. How old was your mother? I mean, young. So she was like five years old, would leave her daughter. Less. And work. Like left her when she was probably two. One or two. And so it's like once a month or? Not even that often. Yeah, because it wasn't airfare travel. Like it was trained. Who raised your mother? My grandmother. My great grandmother. She didn't have a mother, your mother. She didn't really have. And my great grandmother was just like an amazing woman, but like hardcore, you know, no nonsense. And my mother said that my grandmother was ashamed of her country bumpkin mother. So she's living the life in New York. She gets married again. My grandmother gets married again. Now she's her second husband, third marriage. And she has two sons. and she decides she wants her daughter. And so she calls, you know, or gets in contact with my great grandmother and said, hey, I want Shirley to come live with me now. And my great grandmother said, no, she has a life here. Don't disrupt her. She's 14. She's lived, these are her friends and whatever. And my grandmother came to like on a train that she, my great grandma thought she was coming to visit and she snatched my mom and took her, took her to West Lafayette, Indiana. My mother moved in with my grandmother and her second husband. Then my grandmother's second husband had some kind of nervous breakdown. My grandmother had an affair. She had that second husband, third marriage, like shock treatments done on him, divorced him, and married the guy she was having an affair with. And that, I mean. Your teenage mother saw that all and was like in this brand new place, no friends, no stability. this woman she's not bonded with. Yes, and my grandmother was not a nurturing person. Let's just put it that way. Now, she loved me, but I would not say she was a nurturing person. And so Lila, I came from this long list. My grandfather was a 32nd degree Mason. He was on the Manhattan Project. You know, the one that my, the last, the only grandmother, grandfather I knew. He's not blood, but he's covenant grandfather. and he had made all sorts of vows as a 32nd degree mason. It was interesting. When I went through and prayed through those things, one of the vows was if he broke a certain thing of secrecy that one of his descendants would lose an eye. And I had my eye removed when I was five. Isn't that crazy? That's so crazy. It's so crazy. This was your grandfather or great-grandfather? It's my grandfather. Yeah, my grandfather. Was a Freemason and made a vow that if he... Yeah, he's a 32nd degree mason, which is the architects of time. Yeah, so he was on the Manhattan Project. He was the president of Great Lakes Chemical. And so he, and he was the Dean of Chemistry at Purdue. So he did chlorination and fluoridation of the water. I mean, think about that. Now we're all seeing how bad fluoride is. We're all seeing how bad the chlorination is. And so, and he had affairs. And so there was just all this brokenness. How did you find out about that, that he had made a vow that one of his ancestors would lose? So what happened was, so I- Not his ancestors. One of his descendants would lose an eye if he betrayed a secret. So the Masonic thing has a lot of different things going on. And what happened was I had seen a demonic manifestation in my grandma's house when I was 14, right after my grandfather died. I had seen something very scary, very demonic, very real. And, you know, I was aware of that. Well, I want to say about 10 years ago, my son saw the same thing. Can you share what it is or you don't want to share? It was a hooded figure and it appeared and my son was like, mom, I saw this hooded figure and it's like after my life. And I said, okay, you know what? I'm going to find out what is behind the Masonic stuff. So because I had no idea that my grandfather was a Mason when I was young, but somebody had said, I think that's not a good thing. So I found the prayer that you go through the different levels of the vows that they made and the attachments of those different vows. And I went through and I broke those things. And I just said, I'm going to stand in the gap for my generation. So as I went through the different vows, one of the things was, if I break this vow of secrecy, one of my descendants will lose. I mean, it's crazy. That's so crazy. It's like, there's yoga deities in there. It's all sorts of weird stuff. And, you know, even the Tower of Babel had like demonic Babylonian things that are tied to the Masonic stuff. It's all kind of woven into it. And so when I literally was away, Florida, I was writing a book and I literally called my son. I was like, okay, put the phone on the speaker. We are breaking this right now. And, um, yeah, so, so there's so much. And I think that we're covering so much. Like the word you used earlier when you were praying to God, excavate me, like I want to be all yours. I do think excavating our family tree and taking stock of what happened in our family tree, the good and the bad is a, I think an exercise for everyone. I think everyone should do it. I have heard some people say, Hey, let bygones be guy gons. Just forgive. Like, why are you got why are you thinking too much about the faults of your predecessors like don't don't overthink it just forgive them and you don't make excuses if my son hadn't seen that entity i probably would have not right done that i was like no because you and i both know that every generation has has this ability to be the beginning of a thousand generations who love god and keep his commandments. And so I had such an awareness that I was first generation Christian, that John and I were the first couple to say, we're going to fear the Lord. We're going to honor what He honors. And we're going to set apart our family. We're going to be consecrated in every area of our marriage and our parenting and as much as we know. And so as we knew more, and when people say, oh, you don't have to worry about curses or vows or something. They forget one thing. God is not a legalist, but Satan is. I remember I had become a Christian, and I came home, and I wasn't married to John. I was getting ready to get married. I was so excited. And now I'm finding my self-having sleep paralysis, feeling like something is laying on top of me and choking me in the night. And I would go to say the name of Jesus. It would say, you can't say that. And of course I would just say it. I would say it anyway. And it kept going on, going on and going on. And I was like, what is going, what door have I left open? And the Holy Spirit showed me I had put a bunch of pot in the attic space of my bedroom. Pot? Yes. Like marijuana? Marijuana. Because I had been a really good heathen before I was not. And so the pharmakia Yeah, like it had, I had left an open door. Meaning you might use it later? Well, what happened was I put it up there because I don't want mom to find it was a way to college. Somebody gave it to me. I didn't use it. I hid it. And then I became a Christian and I totally forgot it was even up there. And God was like, your closet, open that up. And I was like, oh my gosh, I put a stash up here. Fleshed it down the toilet. And I was like, you have no legal grounds. There is a bloodline. You cannot come in. You cannot torment me. But, you know, I had gone through my parents' house. I told my mom, I said, Mom, I think we have demonic oppression in our house. The Freemason thing is a real demonic stronghold. It is a real stronghold. And again, not to say that people that have these things in their family trees, they're going to get demonic oppression. Or, you know, we've had a lot of exorcists on the show who kind of walk through, you know, some of, like you said, the rules of the game. Because God, he sees everything and he's omnipotent. And so he's not going to allow Satan to do something that he doesn't allow Satan to do. But sometimes he allows battles. So he trains our hands for war and our fingers for battle. Yeah. So I literally felt this constant oppression in our house. And so I told mom, mom, I think we need to pray. I don't know what it is. I think there's something demonic in our house. And I think maybe there's something like demons or something. And my mom said, I don't believe in demons. I said, well, I think they believe in us. I'm like, it's choking me at night. There's something choking me. And this is before I found the stash. And so I said, let's pray because my mom, let's pray together. And she was like, I don't believe in that. I think it's just people make choices. And so I called a spiritual father and he said, wait till she goes to work. And just go through and just anoint the house and just pray. Pray and anything you have a sense, just take the name of Jesus. So I go through my parents' bedroom, the guest bedroom, my brother's bedroom, my bedroom, go downstairs, living room, dining room, kitchen. And I'm in the kitchen and I'm like, okay, I'm done. I've prayed over the whole house and a door upstairs starts opening and slamming shut. Yes. I went running out the front door. I was like, oh, I'm in a horror film. I'm in a horror film. This is demonic. How many times did it open and slam shut? I ran out. Well, so then I was like, I don't want to go back. And I realized I don't have my car keys. I'm just standing in my front yard with a demon in my house. What's going on? And I said, God, show me what to do. and he showed me it was a little demon making a very big noise. And so I got mad, Lila. And I was like, you will not make me afraid in my own house. And I went running up the stairs and the door was in motion and it stopped. And I said, in the name- You saw it in motion? Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Was it a bedroom door? It was my brother's bedroom door. Yeah. And he had some stuff in there. He had some stuff. Yeah, he was- Wow. Yeah, he had some stuff. So I had to literally say, all right, if I can't control this whole house, I can't control this atmosphere. You couldn't go into his room? Well, I mean, I just said, if he has willingly invited in, because even my parents, you know, they were basically cultural Catholic. So they bought me a Ouija board. They had astrology pillows. Like it was watching. They didn't go to mass on Sundays. No, not consistent. That's like my mother growing up. Yeah, not consistent. She was Italian, Catholic, but not practicing. Yes, only if we were going on an airplane, we went to confession. Well, thank God for that. That was one bright light. Yeah, no, I mean, it was, so my brother- So they believed some of it. They believed very little, but yes. A little tiny bit of it. Very, very little. They were scared of hell. They were scared of hell. At least to some degree. I mean, the Ouija board is a business. The Ouija board, yes. I mean, and sun signs and just all of that. So you grew up with a Ouija board in your house? Yes, my parents gave it to me for Christmas. No. Yes. How old were you? I remember 12, 13. But you know what? That's terrifying. I think I used it. I had a slumber party and it worked. And it scared me so bad. I put it underneath my bed and didn't use it. But I should have just burnt it. But no, I mean, when I became a Christian, I threw all of that out. as soon as I understood, but it was like a mix. So it was like, you know, we had holy water and Ouija boards. I'm like, they had holy water in the house too? Well, I did. So I, I had one of those. Thank God you had that. I know. No, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was God pulling on my heart from a very young age, but not like if your parents give you a Ouija board for Christmas, you're like, oh, thank you. You don't know. You have no idea. No, you have no idea. So, So with the brother's room, though, did you, what did you end up doing? So I realized, okay, I'm not going to be tormented. So I literally went, that's when I went into my bedroom and I said, all right, I can, I don't have ultimate authority over this household. My parents do, but I have authority over this bedroom. And so I'm drawing a bloodline. Like the blood of Jesus is on this doorframe and nothing happens in this room. And I said, God, if there's anything in this room still that is giving permission to the enemy, show it to me. And that is when he showed me that I had a stash of marijuana. And this was your room? And so I threw it out. And all the attacks stopped. And that was it. But my brother, he went through a really rough time period and then ended up having to come and live with John and I because my mom could not handle him. And, you know, he's now built a family and stuff. But yeah, there was stuff. It was weird. It's amazing how the Holy Spirit is a guide for us when we're willing to ask him for help and also give him permission to fully, like that word excavate, actually. It's a wonderful word. Oh, two weeks later, I was saying, I didn't mean to say excavate, accessorize landscape. Just don't take it up. Don't take it up. Because it was so uncomfortable. I mean, like, it's like God, when we give God permission to do a deep work, He is like, yes, did you hear that? Go for it. I mean, I just realized there's certain prayers, and that was precious to the Lord, but the process was painful. It was really painful. And yet that's been the connection point for other people was, whoa, whoa, I have hurt my child. or I've been on that edge or I don't know how to deal with these things that, you know, sometimes we blame everything on the devil when really it's unforgiveness or patterns. But we know that the devil aggravates things that are already there, but we always have a choice. And for me, you know, I find that obedience is the highest form of spiritual warfare. And so when God told me to forgive my mom, that was like taking back a territory that had been lost was my mom had never forgiven her mom. So now all of a sudden, there's a whole new legacy set up where it's a legacy of forgiveness. It's a legacy of love. And when I asked my mom to forgive me, she actually, her and I together prayed over the phone that this abuse of children would stop. And I remember when I knew it had worked was I was on like CBN or something like that, and they recorded my testimony on anger. And I was out of the room, and I didn't know I was on TV actually, and my son heard that I almost hurt him. And I walk in the room, and my son, who is now like 12, is watching me tell a story that I almost hurt him when he was like three. and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I never want him to hear that. And he turned around and he said, I can't see you doing that. And I thought, I can still see me doing it. You know, I was like, oh, thank you, Jesus. You know, that in my son's eyes, you know, he doesn't see that. He didn't see me that way. And thank God, I mean, thank God that I had asked God to start the process. And, you know, it was like, I feel like if I, Of course, I hated that I was at that place where that rage and that anger. But Lila, so many people now have found, oh, wait, I can get free. This pattern can stop. If I forgive, if I repent, if I stop making excuses, if I have accountability, if I practice a spiritual discipline of first thing in the morning, God put a watch over my mouth that I don't sin against you. I'm going to be slow to speak, quick to listen, slow to wrath. All of those things are virtues. They are the spiritual disciplines that break a pattern. And patterns are formed one action at a time. And so we can form a healthy pattern one reaction at a time. And so for me, that was huge. And then John's dealing with anger came like about five, six years later. and yeah, and he dealt with it. What does it look like for, in your view, and what have you discovered in your own process of sanctification around anger to be free from anger? And what is that? How did you achieve that? Yeah. And what did it actually concretely look like? Would you like not raise your voice anymore? Well, I think it's the be angry and sin not. So it's constructive anger. So if I'm feeling angry about something, I have to say, okay, what is going on here? Like what- If you're feeling it. Like if I feel like, yeah, because like my, like my personality is all injustice thing. Like I be like you know I mean immediately back up Yeah Oh immediately attack my family you know like those kinds of things so I was like what going on here What going on here And then I have to be like all right how do I constructively rather than destructively handle this? So attacking the problem rather than the person. And we, you know, I was talking with some friends yesterday and I said, here's the turning point basically for my husband and I in our marriage or our family. Like when you attack the character of the person, the person is going to be defensive. But if you separate their action from their character, from their person, like if like you said, okay, let's say I started acting up and you were like, Lisa, Lisa, that's not who you are. Like I know you, what's bothering you? So then I'm going to the place where there's a deeper connection, where I'm going to be able to say, what's the real problem here? And so for me, yelling, I don't like to be yelled at. That doesn't get my attention more. That makes me more defensive. Attacking me, that doesn't work for me. So I just think it's so simple to think, if I want to be heard, say it the way you'd want to hear it. Don't yell. Don't threaten. Don't blame. Don't bring up things from the past. See, I, like when Donna and I would fight early on in our marriage, I somehow had supernatural recall for everything he'd ever done that ever upset me. I even knew what outfit I was wearing when it happened. I mean, I was like, And that time when you, and I would just bring it all up and it would all come out on the table. So he was not dealing with that one infraction. He was dealing with all of my layered emotion from all of the infractions and probably all of the things from my childhood. And it's all coming together right here. And so I'm going to be unreasonable instead of reasonable. And so being able to separate that person from the problem. And, you know, like right now we're watching a world crazy. And what does the Bible say? The wrath of man never works the righteous purposes of God. We do not have the right to kill people or threaten to hurt people that we disagree with. Or to destroy them. Or to destroy them. Slander them or destroy them with their words. I mean, what are the seven things God hates? I mean, it's the slander, the sowing strife, those things. I mean, I just saw today where an anesthesiologist said, I'm not going to work on anybody who doesn't politically align with me. And I'm like, what? You took a vow to do no harm. That is anger. And that is wrath. That's wrath. That's wrath. It's destructive. Like you're saying, it's not just a feeling of anger. It's not I'm going to use the anger to attack. Openizing your emotions. So I want to ask, and I want to get into the world stuff happening, because I think all of this actually has, we have a lot to learn about how we show up in the world right now, especially if we're fighting for good causes and things like that. But back to like mommy anger and just how to deal with impatience and all these things. And I'm thinking about my, one of my best girlfriends that had asked you this question a decade ago. And I'm thinking about myself this morning, right? So my, one of my sons is fighting with my other son, pushes him, right? other son younger, you were like, poor baby, right? You know, you don't want this to happen. You don't, you want them to learn to be gentle with each other, all of this stuff. So I raise my voice. I escalate. Right. And is that ever you think the right move to escalate the voice? I think if there's danger, you should. Like if you're- Stop doing that. Well, like, okay. Like, you know, what, if your, your kid is, you know, you tell your son, don't play in the street and you see them going into the street. They can hurt themselves. Yeah, you want to raise your voice. Or you see your older son getting ready to hurt your younger son. Hey, you know, like you have, there is opportunity. I mean, God makes us able to yell. He makes us able to create a heightened sense. But once you have the attention, you want to take it to the place where they don't remember your reaction. They remember the lesson. And I think for me as a child, when I had my mom screaming and yelling or hitting, I didn't even remember what I did wrong. I only remembered her reaction to me. And so I was doing it again and again and again because I didn't even know what I'd ever done was wrong. I just saw her overcharged reaction. And I think with so many parents, they are also trying to be their child's friend and they're not their parents. So how do you deal with in the aftermath? What do you recommend? So I think humility is huge. Like, okay, I'll just tell you with me, you know, I remember having, you know, three boys, you know, under five. And then, you know, then I had my fourth baby and it was, it was probably more with three. I think I, I think I was already over this by the time I had Arden, but I sat down with my boys and I said, you know, how mommy has been yelling. They're like, yes. And I'm like, you know, like I'm holding a baby nursing and like slapping at one of the, Hey, stop that kind of thing. So, you know, I'm doing that? And they're like, yes. And I said, I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm not doing that anymore. And they're like, okay. And I said, I'm going to say it one time. And in my head, I'm like, this isn't going to work. This is not working. And I said, and if you don't understand what I'm saying, you can ask me, but I'm going to say it one time. And obedience is right away, all the way, and in a happy way. So then I said, okay, so if I come upstairs and you're watching VeggieTales and I say, I want you guys to clean up the playroom and you think, okay, I'll do that when the next VeggieTale is done. And I come back upstairs and you're still just sitting there. Am I going to think you've obeyed me? And they're like, no, because you're still sitting there, right? Yeah. But if you say, can we do it after this veggie tail? And I said, yes, that's fine. But if I say, so clarity is kindness. Give them very clear. So right away, all the way. And I said, God doesn't just discipline actions. He looks at the heart. And I said, so I want to be a good guardian of your heart. If I say, hey, can you take out the trash? You're like, ah, and you stomp out. that's not with a good attitude and a bad attitude and obedience is a bad combination so we're gonna and then i said so so uh older boys if you hit a younger brother there's going to be consequences um i said blatant disrespect consequences how did you define that pardon how How did you define blatant? Like name calling or just, no, you can't tell me, you know, like just blatant, you know. Not just a little backtalk. It's more just like full blown, like blatant, blatant. Like it usually that meant like, hey, you know, cause I, John traveled a lot. So there's a mom at home and the sons are a little mad that the dad's not home more and they don't take it on the dad when he's home because they only have a little bit of time with him. So they take it on the mom. And that was something that I saw with my son when Addison was 13. He was really rough with me. And finally, one day I just sat down with him. I said, you know I love you. And actually, I know you love me. But you're being really hard on me. And who you're really mad at is your dad. And I said, we need to have a talk. And he was like, Mom, I feel like he's not here. I need him. I don't know what I'm going to talk to him about. And he's still in puberty. It's awkward. And I said, all right, all right, I hear you, but I'm not your enemy. I'm not. I said, I understand. So I called this older gentleman that was on our board, and I said, I need your advice. And he said the most bizarre thing to me. He said, does Addison want to get married one day? I was like, hey, well, he's like 13, 14 right now. Yes, I think so. He said, tell him he's going to be processing all of his life with a woman, and he's getting a head start right now. And I was like, I don't know if he's going to fall for that. But I did. I came to him and I said, Addison, I know you wish your dad was here, but you want to be married one day, right? He said, yeah. I said, you're starting to process manhood with a woman right now. And he said, when your dad's home, I want you to have the best time with him. But I want you to actually talk to him. And instead of getting mad, ask him the things that you need to ask him. And what's so crazy, this gentleman, he was such a gift to our family. He literally just went home to be with the Lord, and he requested that Addison, my oldest son, come and do his funeral. How sweet. And so Addison was there with his daughters. And anyway, it's just—so like there is provision, and there is ways of having conversations. but our family has a, and we still have this, we have a virtue of fierce unity and we fight for unity. So if there's a conflict, we're like family meeting, still, still, we're like that. We have kids down the street, we're like, we're all, no, we're working this out. And if there's voices raised in the middle of it, that's okay. But at the end, that's not, we don't end it with that. We end it with prayer. we end it with, okay, going forward, what is unclear? What is, like, this is a lie. I did an interview with Dr. Lee Warren. He's a neurosurgeon. He's got a book coming out. And I think it's called something about doing brain surgery on yourself. And he said 80% of our perceptions about stuff is wrong. Like we take in information and then have the wrong conclusions with it. And so if we're not renewing our mind with the word of God, if we are not, like you talked about early on, in a community of faith, because my first phone call when I did the thing with my son, my first phone call was to a friend. And she actually said, but you didn't. You didn't hurt your son. Like, I feel like that every other day. Like, don't worry too much about it. Don't be too hard on yourself. I didn't want an excuse because I had come way too close. And so that's why I actually told my husband. See, and that, like what you're saying right there, I think that's a point that I really want to dwell on for a minute because back to kind of even my little thing this morning. And again, there was like physical altercation about to take place. But I'm seeing in my parenthood, and I'll just be very authentic here, that I'm not as patient and as present as I need to be with my kids. I want to work on that. And the patience, especially at my model growing up, my mother's amazing. She's the most generous person I know. I love your mom. She's so amazing, but she was raised by this Spitfire Italian mother who was raised by, and she had, you know, she overcame so much in her life. I mean, it's just amazing when I think about what she's, what she's overcome. And, but you know, the, the patterns that I was raised with, right. You want to take the good and improve the bad. That's, and then my mother and my father would say this to us, especially my mom. She'd say, I just want you guys to do better than I did. Like that's, I want that from my kids. I love that. Yes. I want that. And so that's where I think I have been given so much. My husband's a saint. He's so patient. He's so wonderful. I've been given so much. I want to be a better mother. And I know my girlfriend who was reaching out to you a decade, you know, a few years back. I know that's her desire. And I know the women listening, we don't want to cut ourselves slack. We want to obviously be realistic and be humble. Like we're not going to be perfect overnight. But not condemning. Yeah, not condemning. But we want to do better. Yeah. We don't, because I do think there's a, I do think there is a tendency today to be a little bit too forgiving of ourselves. Yeah. That might sound controversial, but. I think it's more excusing ourselves. Excusing, that's a better word. Yeah. That is a better word. Yeah, because, you know, when, there's interesting, it's difference between apology and confession. You know, apologetics is the defense of something. And so when my mom would say, I'm really sorry I hit you, but you made me so mad, that's an apology. It's a defending. Confession is no hold bars. I should never have hit you. It doesn't make an excuse. It doesn't say, you know, your dad came home drunk or, you know, my mom wasn't there for it. It doesn't make excuses. And so I think we've gotten into a culture of apology, justification, making excuses. And everybody's traumatized. Everybody, everybody has trauma. I mean, it's hilarious. I mean, I don't mean to make fun of it because I do believe there's real trauma. but there's also a bunch of nonsense going on. And people have magnified the worst portions of their lives and forgotten the good. And so I can see this areas of my childhood that were, I could focus on just those, or I can focus on my mom did better than her mother. Her mother left her. You know, and when my mom said to me, you know, I just didn't bond with you. I said, you know what, mom, you did better. You did better than you had. And I didn't say, I knew it. I mean, to be honest with you, it was a relief. I thought, well, that explains a lot. That would have been helpful. But, you know, just kind of- Well, she had no bond with her mother. She had no bond with her mom. So she didn't know how to bond. Yeah. And here's the thing. We have this power, you, me. I mean, I'm hearing the humility in your voice. I wanted to do better. and I want my kids to do better. I don't want to keep making excuses. I don't want to perpetuate. And so I think that we get to the place where everybody is giving us excuses, but they're not giving us a way forward. And so like literally when I wrote the book on anger, like I opened up with my ridiculousness. So, you know, breaking windows, denting a refrigerator, getting locked in the garage by my husband because he was worried I was going to break something in a new house. I mean, like all this. And so people are like, oh, well, I've never been as bad as that. And then how I had made excuses, had an entire resume, and then came to the place where I was like, is this how I want to live? Do I want to carry all this trauma and excuses? Or do I actually want to live a life that is sanctified and have a practical way forward that my children see something different? And again, my kids are, like I said, I've seen my boys do it better. And I don't feel guilty because, I mean, of course, there's times I wish, oh gosh, I wish I'd known how to do that different. But I am so thrilled that they're doing it better. And I think even with your boys saying, you know what? I'm sorry that I was impatient. here's what I want to see. I want to see both of you safe. You love each other. I want to see you protecting your younger brother, you know, just like, and this is so important. And to say, and also to build them up because I think I'm like, we don't do that to our brothers. Like, that's not nice. That's not nice. And I've realized like, but if that's the, the, which is all true. Yeah. I was going to say it is true. You don't want them doing that to the But instead of saying, you're like reminding him who he is, because he is a good big brother. He is very loving. And making sure like the intentionality behind the interaction is there, as opposed to it being a reaction, it's an intentional response. Yes. And I think sometimes I get into a pattern of reaction instead of intentional response for situations that are perfectly predictable. Because these are all, I mean, yes, in that moment, I didn't know that that was going to happen, but you know, they're little kids, you know, you know, all of the dynamics. So, and I think practicing intentional response as opposed to reaction, reaction that comes with emotion because I'm upset or I'm concerned or I'm impatient or whatever it is. But emotion isn't always bad. It's attacking people with it. It's like you said, weaponizing it. Weaponizing emotion is what's destructive. I mean, I don't think Jesus was happy when he went into the temple and overturned the tables. And I'm sure a lot of people were mad about that. Like, why would, that was destructive. No, it was, he was demonstrating what was upsetting that his father's house was to be a house of prayer and they'd turn it into a den of, you know, they were thieving and lying and unjust measures and weights. But for me, I remember my boys being teenagers and one of them mouths off at me and I looked at him, I said, I will fly over this kitchen counter and I will take you down to the ground if you talk to me like that again. And I remember my son was like, you're backing away. But he was like, you're not that strong. I said, oh, God will empower me. You will not talk like that. You will not do that in front of your brothers. but that was my tone. I mean, I was like, I will. But you're saying that's a good tone, you would say? Well, I, it was, I realized first child, he sets the pattern for the other ones. I know my first is so strong. So strong. He's so strong. And, and he, my firstborn, he, it was so funny. My third son was. But I'm imagining, I know, no, no. I know that was a teenager at the time, but I'm imagining being like when my, my son, if he really acts up as the first one, right. Speaking to him so strongly, he would just, I think it would escalate him. Yeah, well, I think I just said this was the way I know you think because you're, I think he was probably 15, 16. You think you're bigger than me? This is not, this is not tolerated. I remember we were, it was after church one time and it was so funny. He was, he would get so upset because people would come up to me and ask me questions or ask me for prayer or, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he would stand behind me and say, tell his people to get an appointment. And I was like, oh my gosh. You know, he'd want to go home, watch football. He pushed, he like pushed on me, like push, like physically, like trying to push me out of the aisle. In front of everybody. Yes. And I had told him a number of times, listen, I'm not a minister as a profession. I am a minister as, that's my life. Whether I'm in the grocery store or whether I'm in a pulpit, this is who I am. And this is who we are. And we don't tell people, get an appointment. Hurry up. Yeah. Yeah. So I said, no, no. So we get in the car and I think I made him late for some watching some football game. And he was like mouthing off to me in the car. And we live pretty close to the church, but I just pulled off the side of the road and I looked at him and I said, I think you're going to need to walk home. You are way wound up. And the three boys in the backseat, so he's shotgun, the three boys in the backseat, it's just me, me and the boys. And he was like, if I walk home, people from the church are going to see me. I said, I fear God more than I fear the people in the church. I said, you need to walk home. How far away was home? I mean, it was going to be like a half an hour walk. It wasn't. And he was 15? How old? He was 15 or 16. He was 15. I think he was 15 because he couldn't drive you. And he did. He walked home? So as he gets out of the car, he yells, I hate you. And I just very calmly, I wrote down the line. I said, I'm sorry, did you say something? Did you say something? And the boys in the backseat said, mom, he said he hates you. and then I was like they said don't cave in the sons in the back said don't cave in and so I just said yeah I just rolled up the window and I drove and literally he actually someone saw him and picked him up and brought him home and I remember I went through the kitchen went into my bedroom like our closet was in our bathroom went into the closet and cried like a baby I did because my son said he hated me, but I stayed really calm. And while I was in there, my younger boys wrote me a letter and they said, mom, we love you so much. We promise we'll never go into the mean stage. And they signed it. It was so cute. And they never did. My youngest son and my third son wrote this letter. They saw you stand up too. They wanted me to be, and I didn't I didn't yell. I didn't yell, but there was a consequence. But were you worried that he, like, okay, I'm just, again, being very raw here with my experience, my limited experience of motherhood right now, which I'm navigating and praise, pray God, like I can improve. But I'm imagining that me being in that situation when, if my kid, child was older and everything else, I would be afraid of them feeling some like deep primordial abandonment and having issues of abandonment. If I made him walk home. Yeah. Oh, it wasn't that far. But maybe I'm too like modernized with it. You know what I'm saying? That's the. I just, I mean, to be honest with you, you guys have a lot of testosterone. And he was gonna, he just needed to walk. I mean, he needed to be, he needed to be. Like physically walking. I mean, it was. It was safe. I mean, it wasn't like, yeah. Daylight, safe. Yes. The like blocks away from our house, not miles, you know, blocks. I guess I'm thinking of my sixth year. I mean, he's six. I would never do that too. a 60 year old. It was a very different situation. Yeah. So I, and I think that's something age appropriate is huge. I would never have a five-year-old walk home. Yeah. A teenage boy that is six foot. Yeah. And I think one of my personal struggles that I'm learning to navigate is being overly soft or empathetic with my own kids where I'm like, not that you can be overly soft with your child, but meaning I'm a, I can be maybe too much of a pushover or too nice because I love them so much. But that's why we have dads. Right. But I think that's where it's navigating. Like, don't be so strong that you're harsh or impatient or angry. Right. And then don't be so weak that you're passive and you're not, you don't have boundaries and you don't make sure that they know your word is your word. And I think those two extremes I'm trying to learn to navigate between because sometimes I'm like, well, I don't want to, you know, make him hurt or make him sad. Like go to your, like, like this morning was like, you have to go to a timeout. and then he like says like you you're so why could you do this to me i mean that's kind of like his route that he goes like almost like the self-pitying route i'm like it's a timeout and you're like say you hurt your brother i didn't do you know you made a choice right i mean as long as he understands that's a consequence you hit your brother right you're gonna have some time and he knows yeah yeah yeah and so you can't let him emotionally manipulate you yeah it's shocking how quick children learn how to like make you feel guilty about something that they did, not you did. But you know, like, again, I don't think you haven't like, the kind of things that cause real big problems are people that are physically abusive, verbally abusive, and then justify it. I think there's every parent can at some go to bed at the end of the night and say, I yelled when I shouldn't have. I didn't follow through with that. I spanked my child and I shouldn't have, or I didn't spank them and I should have. We all as parents have a list every single day of the things we wish we would have done better, wish we could do better. But at the end of the day, moms need mercy as well. They need mercy. And if they carry the weight of all their failures, then they start making excuses or they do what you do. Okay. I was too hard yesterday. So I'm going to be too passive today. And then that's confusing to your kids because they're like, what's going on now? Is there going to be a con? Is there no consequence? Is this, is, and then, you know, they'll push the, they'll push it. They'll push the, they'll push the boundaries and they'll be like, okay, mom's a pushover. If I say you're being mean, she, she'll renege on something, you know, or whatever. And then he didn't time out. Please, please, can I come up, please? I'm so sorry. And you're like, can I let him out of jail a minute for a minute early? And you're like, no, you got to do the full five minutes because otherwise, like, you know, the sweet talk is going to overcome. So it, I mean, I find this difficult. I find it difficult to hold the consistency over time. And you and your husband need to sit down and do that. Well, he's so good. My husband. No, but just like saying, this is like, I want to be consistent. Yeah. So help me. Like, because I'll cave here or, and then sit down with your kids and say, your dad and I talked, you know, this is what we're going to do going forward. This is how, you know, if this happens, this is like, so there's just clear. Cause I've been inconsistent with you. I'm not saying, you know, that's what I do with my kids. I said, I've been inconsistent. I've been yelling. I've been threatening and then not doing anything. I'd be like, I'm spanking everybody. And I'd spank nobody. Like she's just talking. She's just yelling. Like they thought I was just a crazy woman. And I thought I am a crazy woman. I thought This is disorder. But when there was clarity, my kids responded to that. And I've watched my sons are very clear with their kids. They don't raise their voice, but there's consequence. And one time my son's son was acting up with his wife and like his mother. And my daughter-in-law said to my son, go down and apologize to your mom. This is why you're acting up when you were young. This is coming out in your son now with me. You go and apologize to your mom. He's like, I've already done that. I've already apologized. But yeah, I mean, I just feel like every family has this beautiful opportunity. But mom rage is more than often excused on social media rather than empowered to be constructive Again rage is never constructive anger Anger and then anger for me I have to step back because I didn't wanna do anything in anger. Like what I loved about you so much is I knew how passionate you were about pro-life and I've watched people come after you and I wanna say mean things to those people And yet you are always clear, but you're always kind. And you're always, you don't make it personal. You don't attack the person, no matter how they much attack you. You go right back to the principle. And basically, this is life. And it's saying, you do this perfectly well. And when you're talking about debates, pro-life, no, you do. you're probably doing better than you realize, Lila. My husband tells me when it comes to the kids, he thinks I need to be more firm. That's, so I'm like, I raised my voice this morning. I'm like, you were just, you were speaking in an intense tone because he was, there was a- Because someone was getting hurt. So I think if anything, I need to work on consistent firmness. And of course, because I am very affectionate with my kids, with our kids. And so I think I'm coming out of this from the bleeding heart of like, oh, I just don't want to traumatize them. I don't want to hurt them. I don't want to- First of all, you talking strong to a young boy is not going to traumatize them. It's probably me. I know. I feel like you're more traumatized by it than he's probably- I think that's true. I do think that's true. And my husband tells me this. So I think I probably just need to listen to my husband more and just really focus on firm intentionality with my children and make sure that there's like regular communication about these are the expectations and these are the rules and everything else. and the girlfriend that, you know, was so excited to, she's going to love this interview. And she was so excited to read your book and everything else. She's more of the spitfire type personality. So I think I can lose my patience too, but she's more of the personality that can react more quickly and be more aggressive. Right. So her struggle would be different than maybe my struggles. I have both of the struggles. So I don't think I'm like off the hook for impatient struggles. Cause as I said, I do struggle with impatience. Yeah. I didn't struggle with impatience. I just struggle with anger. My husband just, and I would say this, I have a long fuse, but what would happen is I had a long fuse, but then when it went off, it was an atomic bomb. It was like, there was no reasoning with me. It was ridiculous. Yeah. So, and it was, it was everything. And, and John was like, whoa, whoa, what just happened? And he did not come from a family that talked about things. And I came from a family that fought all the time, but didn't ever resolve anything. So my family fought no resolution. His family avoided no resolution. And so we have two people that don't know. And so it just was a big clash. They don't know resolution. Yeah. So how do you do resolution? You put the problem on the other side of the table. I think we might've said this when we were with you, like most couples when there is an argument or parents even with their kids, like, okay, you're frustrated with your brother and you hit him. That's the problem, hitting the brother. so your son's not the problem the problem is he doesn't know how to deal with his frustration with his brother in a constructive way so that's the problem so most people see the they're each on the opposite side of the table your son on one side you're on the other as the parent or your husband on one side the wife on the other side and the problem's in the center and they push it back and forth between each other instead of seeing your son and you are on the same side and the problem is you're frustrated with your brother. So you're like together, let's figure this out. When you're frustrated with your brother, I know you want to hit him, but that's not allowed. So what can you do? Let's talk about what you can do. I can walk away. I can come to you, you know, but we don't want to do a tattletale thing all the time. So like you, you, you solve, you attack the problem and not the person. And usually it doesn't start that way. I mean, Our family just had a little, like a couple of us, we had just a little come to Jesus. And it felt like the people were getting attacked and just stayed really calm. And we let them be heard. And then we said, okay, now let's talk about how we move forward with this. Because this is not, you're not perceiving this correctly. And you're making something really big out of something that is not even accurate. And again, so I think as moms, we forget that our kids have actually a lot of emotional intelligence where they can say, I mishandled that, but they just don't know how to handle it correctly. So let's talk about constructive ways. And that way it isn't just you do it wrong, you get spanked. You do it wrong, you go in timeout. You do it wrong, you lose the toy. Like, you know, consequences are good, but you don't want to constantly consequence. You want to actually have a strategy for them to move into a place of constructive rather than consequence. To know how to manage their own emotions. Yeah, their own emotions. Well, I think so like this morning, and not to like overdwell on this situation, but I think it was really a good one to take into the conversation with you. Because I was like, I could have done this differently, and I'm not really sure what different looks like. So he was frustrated. They were playing Legos. We were reading books, playing Legos. He was playing Legos. And the one special Lego and this intricate thing that he was building. the other son he was doing something else had taken the one little special piece that he had spent all this time finding but at the same time he takes the other they all take each other's pieces and he wasn't playing with it in that moment so it was a little you know unreasonable that he like owns the lego now that we all share the legos anyway so that was the beginning of the altercation and in that situation he knows to share he knows that these are not just his legos you share all the legos the other son did it very innocently you know take that lego etc and he was overreacting and threatening violence, you know, against the younger son. So for me, it wasn't like, okay, let's deal with your anger about you being frustrated about losing your Lego. Cause he get, he get, you know, some certain kids get especially fixated on things. Other kids are more easygoing. What would you have done? Just go to your room. No, no. Well, I mean, did he actually hit his brother? Yes. Okay. He started, he started, there was a first hit and then they were going to be more pummeling after that. Yeah. So I mean, I, there was a shove and then there was going to to be pummeling. Yeah. I mean, there was obviously frustration. Because the other brother's tough, too, and he wasn't going to give back the Lego. He's like, he's smaller, but he's just as strong. My second son, like he, like, I remember Addison pushed him too far one time and like Addison would be upset and get physical with him. But when Austin got bigger, there was absolutely no restraint. Like Addison always had firstborn restraint. My second son, I think he might've broken his brother's nose at one point, like punched him. Well, that's my, that's our middle kid. You know, this is, I had to separate him. He's fearless. Yeah, no, the second ones tend to be a little fearless. The first one is a little more cautious. You know, let's keep everybody alive. My second son, I was like, oh my gosh. So I'm like, do not, do not push him. Do not push him. You'll be sorry. They were, they were playing. They went, we took him to the haircut, get a haircut. They were watching WWE, you know, where the guys tripped out of their underwear and they're like wrestling. My two boys at the barbershop. my little voice. And so they come home, they show up in their underwear that evening and they got socks on their hands and they're fighting. And my younger one keeps like beating the older one. And I was like, guys, if you hurt each other, it's not okay. But if you play, you can do this a little bit. I don't want to be over controlling. They have to wrestle. But so the younger one kept beating the older one. And afterwards I said, oh, I said, Peter, that was so nice of you to let Leah win. Like you did such a, that was such a nice big brother thing to do. I kind of took him side. And he said, no, he was beating me, Mom. So anyways. No, it's, you know what? Again, I love that you're laughing about it because you have to have a sense of humor. But I do think, again, yeah, if, I mean, if the firstborn is really frustrated, this was his piece. He sounds like he's really justice oriented. He's like, this isn't right. This is, you know, and the second brother's like, I'm sorry. I just had it. I didn't. No, he wasn't sorry. He wasn't sorry. It's his Lego. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, I just think, I think you're being hard on yourself. I'm overanalyzing the parenting example. I do think you're being hard on yourself, but it did not justify hitting. Yeah. No, no, it did not. And I don't know that ever older brother justifying hitting a younger brother. And that's what I told him. I said, you're the older brother. You cannot hit your younger brother. That's what we said. You are the protector. You are not the, you are not the discipline. You do not punish your brother. You do not threaten your brother. I came home from a trip and I remember my oldest son had shot my other, the other brothers with like a paintball gun or something in the back, lined him up. The oldest? Yes. I was like, give me the gun. I was like, you'll never see it again. I just like, I'm like, it's gone. It's gone. Like, what were you thinking? Yeah. What were you thinking? That was insane. So, you know, it gets. Well, and I think my oldest son, he's so verbal and he's so intelligent. And he says like. You forget how he's young. Well, and he also said stuff like, he's like, mom, you raised your voice with me. If you raise your voice with me, you teach me to raise my voice. So I'm like, I think I just need to be, you know, son. I feel like that. He knows me. He's weaponizing your beautiful heart against you. To say moms can raise our voice. Kids don't raise our voice to the moms, you know? And I raised my voice because you were doing something that was dangerous. It was going to hurt your brother. Dangerous to your younger brother. All right. This is litigated. You're absolved. You're absolved. You're absolved. It's all good. No. And, you know, again, he doesn't get to say that to you. Yeah. He doesn't. I mean, he can say it, but he's not your parent. And I think too many parents are trying to be their kid's friends, and they're forgetting to be their parent. Right now, you are the protector. You are the police of his behavior. This is not a season where he gets to come back to you and say, well, if you raise your voice, I raise my voice. Like, he's smart. Yeah, of course. He's very smart. No, he's smart. He's smart. But don't let it make you feel guilty, is what I'm saying. I'm glad he's smart. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, this was a good psychoanalyzation of my parenting episode this morning. But I think that I think the intentional responsive response reaction or response, not reaction, and then not getting and I don't think I ever I've never I don't think I've ever raged. So I think maybe I'm also attacking this from the perspective of someone that is over. It needs to be more firm, actually, as opposed to, oh, I'm I have a rage issue. It's more like actually, Lila, you have a softy issue. You need to be more consistent and be more firm. firm. Well, and maybe you're reacting to, I don't want to do the other. Exactly. So you're compensating the other way. Yeah. Because what you had the spicy Italian women in your background, you're like, I'm going to overcorrect this way. And, you know, and it's, I mean, I feel like we've covered so much ground. So like there is, there are things that are spiritual and there are things that are patterned and there are things that, you know, we just didn't have modeled for us that we need to do. And so, you know, for me, even praying over my kids when they were asleep, just praying over them, praying peace over them, praying scripture over them, that they're a disciple taught of the Lord and great is their peace and undisturbed composure, that they're for signs and wonders and miracles, that they're not for death and destruction, just praying over them when they're asleep, praying over them before I put them to bed. Sometimes I would see my son agitated about something and he didn't even know what he's agitated about. And I'd pray over them what they were asleep. And when they got up, there were a different, different child. How beautiful. Yeah. And they just don't, I mean, a prayer is. What about the role of self-care in this? That's a big thing that's talked a lot about a lot today that, oh, if you have, lose your patience or you have issues in your parenting, you're not taking good enough care of yourself as a mom. You know, for, I don't, I mean, Lila, almost like self-care became like another thing to do for me. It was like another list. I mean, I think reading the Bible is self-care. I think prayer is self-care. I think going for a walk is self-care. Sometimes, yeah. I mean, sometimes if you're overly tired and didn't sleep good or have something unresolved with your husband. Yeah. But I mean, I just feel like sometimes self-focus is just overemphasized in our culture right now. I mean, taking a long bath goes a long way for me. I mean, it's great, but we can't be dependent every single day is going to have great space for self-care. I just, I don't think that's reasonable, especially when you have young kids. I mean, I called it the blessed blur. I just remember it was like, okay, everybody's alive still. No one has stitches today. It's amazing. And we're going to bed and get up the next day and start again. And again, I loved being a mom. It's my favorite thing I ever did, But I didn't have this list about self-care. I don't know. I mean, I'm 65. Maybe we just look at everything differently. I was just happy if I took a shower. I mean, I think that's also expectations. I think our expectations are out of whack for my generation of women because we were told like, oh, you need these things to be able to do well. And present to you on social media. Yes. Like I didn't have any audience I had to present for. I could go to the grocery store looking like I was a street person and nobody, you know, it wasn't going to be recorded on somebody's phone. You know, I was always thinking that people are going to be like, oh, we need to show you the video of what your wife looks like when you're not in town, Mr. Bevere. Like, this is what her kids look like. This is what she looks like. I didn't have any audience that was critiquing and watching and looking at me and measuring. And then I also didn't think my children were content. And I think that's a huge thing. Like if you're not raising your children for godliness, but you're raising them for content, who are you actually really focused on? It feels like it's a problem for me. Do you feel like you're seeing more of that today, even in Christian circles? Because certainly it's happening everywhere. Yes, 100%. where the child is being trained for performing for this external audience as opposed to being trained up in the Lord and trained up in how God has for them. And just people opening up there, like, oh, this is my world. I had this conversation with my son today, and I put it on social media. Well, maybe that should have been private. Maybe even if it, and sometimes people have a positive reaction. Some people don't. Do you really want, Is there no area of your life that feels private anymore that you can have the freedom to make mistakes or have conversations and your kids don't have to worry that you're going to use it as content on your social media? I don't know. There's just, I don't know. I feel like we have forgotten that we have the right to have some privacy. And, you know, there's intimacy and there's things in the spirit that are sacred and they're holy. And if you put them out of the right environment and context, it becomes pornographic. No, seriously. I mean, I told my husband there were so many times I see things and I'm like, that's almost like prayer porn. I know this sounds really crazy, but there's things that when you're praying, it's intimate. And when you take what is intimate and you put it out for everybody, you don't even know who you're doing that with. Like, for example, and again, you guys can edit it however you want, but what happens between my husband and I in our bedroom is holy and it's sacred and it's intimate. But if we record it and we put it on social media, now it's pornographic. And again, I think that we are playing to audiences that have no place in our life. And we're forgetting the one that we should be worshiping and consecrating our life to. We're not living sacred lives. We're living lives that are in like content creation lives. Are you talking about social media or just, you know, people who have sort of any kind of a public work or ministry filming intimate moments in their home and then regularly making content out of it? Or what do you mean when you say like it's almost being pornified? I saw some beautiful prayer meetings where people are praying for the nations and praying for angelic intervention. And in that setting, it works. But when you put it up, you know, okay, and the scripture says, do not give dogs what is sacred and do not cast your pearls before swine. And so the onus is on the people carrying the sacred things. So there are things and conversations and things that happen that I think sometimes people don't know how to hide it in their heart. Like Mary, she didn't like go out and be like, hey, everybody, I'm carrying, you know, the Messiah, Emmanuel, God with, you know, like she did 47 of my pregnancy, guys. Yeah, exactly. We got a snapshot of her pregnancy when she went to see Elizabeth. And that was like the longest thing she ever said in scripture was the Magnificat. It's that beautiful prayer. All generations will call me blessed. And Elizabeth was the same way because the angel had to tell Mary that Elizabeth was pregnant. Right. You know, your cousin Elizabeth, she sent her six months. What? She's pregnant? You know, and again, so I just think we've lost sacred, sanctified conversations. And then we get really confused messaging because we send things that are beautiful in one setting out into another setting where it's not. And like even, you know, some of the quote prophetic stuff, like it should be personal. Yes. It should not be, it should not be, should not be broadcast. I'm actually hosting something in, in Franklin area where it's not recorded. And so women can talk about hard things in a private setting and they don't have to worry that I'm turning it into content. You know, they can talk about it. It's refreshing. It is so, it is so true. Everything is, everything's being made into content. And there's so much performance that can come with that. But I think what you were saying earlier about the sacredness and not just the sacredness of your relationships, but also your home and that space, there might be moments you would share. You know, and I'm not saying any moment you share can't be sacred, but to be careful with that. It's a good reminder to us women, especially us women listening. I feel like women are prone to this more than men today. Yeah, and people are mean. You know, people are mean. Like you don't want to give just everybody voice into your life. And so I think sometimes, you know, like, you know, you have to decide, am I putting this out because I want affirmation from other people? Or am I doing this because I really want to help people? I really want people to learn from my mistakes or find out the faithfulness of God or find encourage or, you know, or find their voice, whatever it is. But the motive is very important behind something. And again, you can put something out with the purest of motives and people can still attack you. So it's not that. I'm just saying, I think that we're opening up way too much of our lives to strangers and we are not intimate with the people that we live with. And we have to use our reason too, to think, is this actually going to help? Is this truly going to help people? Right. Including our motive. like I didn't talk about the anger thing. I didn't talk about almost hurting my son. I didn't talk about that until I was like two and a half years on the other side of it. I didn't say, oh, last week. I worked that out into my life. I worked it out. It became, I had a healthy response. And, you know, I had like had my second son. I think I was actually pregnant with my third son when I probably first started. Like I feel like we don't allow things to have a growth cycle in our life. We just content it or just put it out. And we don't allow character to be developed in the way that it needs to be developed. So before we, I know we've got to go soon and your book on anger and everything that you've been sharing about overcoming anger as a mother, or it could be as a father too, but we're talking about really from a woman's perspective. Can you just speak briefly to how you see righteous anger today become wrath and recommendations you might have for how we can keep our anger righteous? Yeah. Well, I think when we are seeing the kind of craziness that's going on, the violence, the hatred, even almost the, I mean, like we go to social media and we see people that obviously feel strongly about things, but they're mishandling it. And so that kind of thing is not going to move anything forward. If anything, it's going to justify the suppression of the very thing that they think they're being an advocate for. So, you know, it's going to be a shutdown. And so I don't think attacking people physically, slandering people, those things are never going to be something that God blesses. So if we are like upset about something, you know, I feel like you just came back from a March for Life. You make your presence known, but you don't make your presence a threat. You are like, we are here because we care. We are here because we are fighting for life. but you would never attack the people that are around you that disagree with you. So you want to be persuasive, not offensive. And again, of course, our opinion is going to be offensive to some people, but I'm saying you're not going to attack. So when we're talking about righteous anger, righteous anger means, is there not a cause? And then the understanding of who the real enemy is. and we go to God for a battle strategy. We don't wrestle with flesh and blood, but we are wrestling and we're wrestling with principalities and powers and rulers. So if we can actually name the person, the person isn't usually the problem. If we can name them, that may be what we think is the problem, but there's always something more darker behind it. So we have prayer and we have the word of God and we have community. And one of the things that I had a gentleman tell me, he said, one thing that we have lost the art of is constant, courageous conversations. Like having a conversation with somebody that you disagree with instead of arguing with them on social media can change everything. So constant, courageous conversations. We're not pandering. We're not virtue signaling. we have clarity but we're also listening they know that they're heard so we're not just arguing but but we are having a conversation where we're consistent like hey this is how i see this this is what the word of god says this is what you know is the truth scientifically whatever like in your case but yeah i do think we need to have we need to have a voice but i i feel like we silenced our voice because we didn't know how to be constructive with it. And in the meantime, all these angry people appear more courageous on what is wrong than we've had a voice on what is right. And because anytime they intimidate, oh no, don't miss politics and religion. Don't do this. Don't do that. Well, you and I both know that they've gotten spiritual in politics. So we can't be quiet anymore. But we can't also be destructive. So, I mean, prayer is really at the root of it. And I hate that people think that prayer is the last resort. It needs to be the first. Yes. And again, am I wrestling with something spiritual? Then I can't make sense out of it. Because so much of what's going on makes absolutely no sense. And women are enraged right now over things that they have no control over. And so they're in a constant state of agitation because there's nothing more frustrating than feeling responsible for something you have no authority over. And I think that's a big deal right now. Give it to God and pray. That is when you don't have that. If you feel you don't have the power, you have more power than you know when you pray. Yeah. Control the control rules. What is in your power and what isn't in your power? Let go of it. Yeah. Exactly. Mama Lisa, so much wisdom. How can people find your books and your book on anger. I think it's on Amazon. It's called Be Angry But Don't Blow It. And it's all about constructive anger and how to actually understand that anger is not wrong, but unhealthy, ungodly, wrath, and rage. That is the problem. So that is out there. And then the fight for a female, I have an entire chapter on spiritual warfare. And I think that we need to do our due diligence and pray. We don't obsess with about it. You know, I love that C.S. Lewis said there is two unhealthy balances where we, like airs where we fall when it comes to spiritual warfare. We either obsess or we say there's nothing. And we need to have a healthy approach, not obsessive about demonic, but not, I'm just going to ignore that. It's not going to go away. It's real. And so we need to address it with the word of God and with prayer and obedience. Amen. Thank you so much, Lisa. So fun to always be with you. Thank you. Love you. A big thank you to our channel partner, EWTN. EWTN is the world's largest religious broadcast network, reaching millions of people every single day with the beautiful truth of the gospel. 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