The Secret Life of Walter Mitty

The year is 2013. Okay, well I haven't really been anywhere noteworthy or mentionable. Have you done anything noteworthy mentionable? The movie, The Secret Life of Walter Middy. Hello everyone and welcome to Unspooled. Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, muscys, and in case you missed them. We have covered the AFI Top 100 and now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterbox Top 250 with the most fans, the IMDb Top 250, and the New York Times 1000 Essential Films. And we will also be chasing our very own curiosity. We've been on a trip, Amy, a trip about work, life, balance, and this movie is a film that we have talked about for a very long time and felt maybe this was the perfect way to kind of pull together all these episodes. Yeah, I think if we talk about work, life, imbalance, because if any of our movies have solved it, well they haven't. We've done Double Wears Prada, which took us to the Deirdre McGuire, which took us here and they're all like, oh man, good luck. The good news is it was never easy. I am Paul Scheer. I am an actor, a writer, a director, and I have such a very clear memory of reading a book in elementary school where it was, I guess, a picture book of the secret life of Walter Middy with Danny Kay. And while I've never seen that film, I just fell in love with this book and this idea of someone who lived in their head so much so that like, when I heard this movie was coming out, I was so excited just because of that picture book and what it meant to me as a kid. And now you might ask, well, Paul, did you ever see the Danny Kay movie? Absolutely not. Any desire to? No. So don't know what that says about me. Well, your imaginary version is even better. That's what you say. Yes. You're protecting the right to keep living in your imaginary version of that story. The same reason why I don't see Dumb and Dumber ever again, because it was so good the first time. Oh, wait, that sounds like a challenge. Anyway, hello, hi, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm the film critic for The Last Andrew This Times. I have a very clear memory of seeing this Walter Middy in theaters because I saw it and I left and I thought, I think I really liked that. Am I crazy? And I was so confused by how much I liked this movie that I went and saw it again before I wrote about it. Wow. I was so confused by how much I liked about this movie that I wrote a review about it for the LA Weekly. And then after it went up, I thought, you know what? In the online version, I could fit in 200 more words about why this movie is good. So I like wrote again and asked if we could expand it. Wow. Hey, everybody. One of my favorite podcasts, Talking Pictures, is back for another season. You know this. It's from TCM and HBO Max. It's a podcast all about movies and memories hosted by Ben Manquitz. And he gets to sit down with some of Hollywood's most influential actors and filmmakers to discuss the movies that inspired them. I've been on the show. It was the most fun. And this season, he is talking to people like Edgar Wright about pacing and montages in film and Rosie Perez about her acting career and how it kind of just began on accident. He's also talking to Pat Nozwald, Susan Sarandon, Vera Mariah, who is a director who did a lot of Atlanta and the great new show, Widows Bay, Sally Field, Tony Goldwyn and so much more. This season, Ben and his guests are on camera so you can also watch Talking Pictures on HBO Max and Spotify or listen wherever you get your podcast. A great story like Monsters Inc. stays with you forever. And Disney Plus is where you'll find your next great story. From the return of the award-winning hit series, Rivals. Welcome to the naughtiest show on television. To the unmissable crime drama, High Potential. Gotta dead body, gotta go. A lifetime of great stories awaits. This spring on Disney Plus, 18 Plus, subscription required. T's and C's apply. I'm Spoold. You know, I actually saw this movie in a Friends and Families screening on the Fox slot. And it was so interesting because I didn't know anything about it. I had my preconception based on the picture book that I read when I was a child. But I didn't know anything and this really was a different type of movie for Ben Stiller. We talked about reality bites a few months ago. But this, I think I was expecting it to be a big, bold comedy where essentially he would be falling into sketches. And this movie is not that. And as I get older and I watch it more and more, I just love it more and more. But I think that that whiplash of what I was expecting versus what it was was really hard for me to judge how much I actually liked the movie because I had to get over the fact it wasn't a movie that I wanted or I pictured in my head even though I liked what I saw. I think that is exactly what happened in this studio too. I've read a piece from the time when it came out where Ben Stiller was explaining that he never told Fox exactly how he saw the film. He kept saying it was Forest Gump because he was like Forest Gump made a lot of money. But he thought it was going to be more like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. That was how he wanted to kind of sell it or like his version of Playtime or like a European, small French comedy. But he had to sell it to them even. And in like the previews and in everything as this big comedy that he never really thought it was, which that's risky man because it means people show up and they're like, what did I see if they don't vibe with it? Well, and you know, one of the things that we might get into is in the editing process, they actually cut out a lot of the bigger comedy set pieces, the ideas of Walter Midey falling into his fantasies because his actual journey was so exciting, right? So even the studio probably was surprised to see like, well, where are all these comedy beats that we wanted? I think it makes for a way more interesting movie because as the film progresses, those scenes kind of start to minimize, which actually makes perfect thematic sense. You don't need to fantasize when you are living the fantasy. Yeah, exactly. But so I get why everyone's upset about that in the initial response to it. Well, that's the thing. That's why I'm really glad we're doing this movie because this is what 13 years ago. For 13 years, I thought I was the only person who liked this movie because it got savaged. I think I was one of the only critics who stood up and said, I really enjoy this film and I had people, my friends make fun of me like, midi lover, you know, and now Midey has gone on this path to redemption. And I am not alone because we're doing this movie now because it is 139 on the letterbox top 250 films of all time. And when you look at the five star reviews, they're like, this is my favorite movie. It's not just one of those movies people like, it's one of those movies that people like, this is my favorite movie. That is a whole other echelon. I mean, it truly is. And let's get to how it started. Now hold onto your skateboards because the story of how the secret life of Walter Middy gets to the screen is very long, curvy and bumpy. But guess what? Stiller is able to ollie over that shit. Technically, it starts in 1939 when the cartoonist and writer James Thurber publishes a story in New Yorker magazine about a man running boring errands for his mean wife who hates his life so much that he disappears into daydreams. And that version, the secret life of Walter Middy is fun, but it's not a comedy. It ends with Walter getting so annoyed with his wife that he imagines himself being shot by a firing squad. Yeah, that's literally the last paragraph. Okay, well, I will die nobly. Now in 1947, the cynical short story becomes a very big splashy comedy musical starring Dana Kay. Paul will never see it. Here's how it sounds. And now James Thurber is not happy about this. He offers the producer of the Danny Kay movie that Samuel Goldwyn, $10,000, not to make the movie. And then he tries to get the title changed. They almost change the title to I Wake Up Dreaming. When that failed, James Thurber goes to premiere and as it ends, when the credits are going, he plays Dumbini, and he goes, anyone catch the name of this picture? Wow, Thurber really keep an account here. Fast forward to 1994 when producer Samuel Goldwyn Jr. wants to do a remake of his dad's movie, and he really wants Jim Carrey to star. I mean, perfect, right? It feels like this is a Jim Carrey movie waiting to happen. Now he's so committed to the idea of doing it with Jim Carrey that he turns down an off-red Disney because New Line, who already did two movies with Jim Carrey, has a better relationship with him. I mean, that's huge. Yeah, that is major commitment. And Ron Howard is going to direct, things are looking good, Jim Carrey is in, but then after the Thurber show is a hit, also a Jim Carrey movie, Ron Howard decides he'd rather make his own reality show movie instead called Ed TV. Why Ron? I know, crazy. Why would you try to make a competition to the movie that was a hit? Right. No idea. No idea. Samuel Goldwyn Jr. he gets annoyed, he gets the rights back to his dad's movie, and then Steven Spielberg says he'll do it, surprise. And then Steven Spielberg drops out, surprise. But by the way, another great director for this. I feel like Spielberg could capture this really well as well. Yeah, I'm always fascinated when you see the road map of people who were attached and left because you get a sense of the tone they're really trying to chase, you know? Well, I also feel like the interesting thing about getting attached and falling out is you get attached to an idea, and that doesn't mean that your idea is actually ever executed, right? If you see potential in a script or potential in pieces, but all the pieces don't come together, you know, you just bail. I remember reading a story with Dana Carvey early on when he was talking about why doesn't he do better movies? And this is like when he was right off of SNL, and he's like, they're not always offered to me. And so you just take the one that is the least bad and hope you make it the best. And I think you sometimes will see people like Jim Carrey do that with Ace Ventura. It turns out as this giant star making vehicle makes him a giant star. But there's a lot of movies where you just can't get all those pieces in and maybe... Not everybody can be Tom Cruise doing Top Gun. He was like, this is trash, but let me rewrite it for free. And then we'll see if we can do it. And Spielberg, I guess, also has that ability to say, well, yeah, if it doesn't work, then I'm going to walk away from it. Like, that's the beauty of success in a way. It is. But so after Steven drops out, Jim Carrey drops out, he is attached, by the way, for 10 years. He stays attached to like 2005. Then the script goes to Ben Stiller. Ben Stiller says, no, this is dumb. Then it goes to Owen Wilson, who says, yes. Mark Waters of Mean Girls, he's going to direct. Building Sets in Louisiana. Scarlett Johansson is going to play the romantic lead. And then Hurricane Katrina destroys the sets and the movie falls apart again. All right. Well, guess what? Next up, who's going to take this home? Yes, it's Gore Verbinski. I love Gore Verbinski and he is going to direct this film. It's going to star a funny white guy who does a lot of different characters. Yes, Mike Myers. He's out. We don't know why. Then Sasha Baron Cohen's up. It keeps on getting rewritten, becoming more funny, less funny. And then finally in 2011, a different version of the script. This one by Steve Conrad gets back to Ben Stiller, who says, ooh, I like this one. I'm going to do this one. And you know what? I'll direct it too. Now, finally, Samuel Golden, Jr. is relieved it has taken 20 years to exist. And when it does, it becomes this earnest dramedy about a guy named Walter Middy, who has worked in the photo department of Life Magazine for 16 years. And it's now getting shut down and turned into a website. Now, Walter is in charge of tracking down the photo for the last ever print cover of Life Magazine, but he cannot find it. So he goes on this adventure to Greenland, Iceland and Afghanistan, trying to find the photographer, Sean, who was played by Sean Penn. Meanwhile, he gets more support from his crush, Cheryl, this e-harmony employee named Todd. That's Kristen Wiig and Patton Oswald. He's also got this terrible new boss who's part of like the company that's taken over Life Magazine. His name is Todd. That's Adam Scott. And also he's got a mother. He's got a sister. They're played by Shirley MacLean and Catherine Hahn. By the way, I mean, just to call it out, Adam Scott, great in this film. But without Adam Scott in this role, maybe there's no Adam Scott in Severance, because that's where he and Ben Stiller kind of find this idea, not to do Severance, but I think Stiller really loves working with Adam and sees him, you know. And by the way, Severance and Walter Mitty do share similar DNA in a way, right? I was going to ask you that because I only saw an episode or two of Severance, and I just loved the very first episode, so I wasn't that into it, but I understand that it's a me thing and it got better. Well, yeah, it's a very interesting thing, but it's about like this idea. I mean, it's an idea. It's not exactly like it, but I can see similarities in the idea. Here's your work life. Here's your other life, right? Yes, exactly. Yeah. By the way, while we're here, by the way, Adam Scott has a movie out called Hockham. Oh, Hockham, right? It's fantastic. Just got to say that while we're talking about Adam Scott. Oh, I can't wait. So good. Now, this movie was not cheap. It cost $90 million, but Ben Stiller's big movies tend to make big money. So when it opened on Christmas Day, you know, we thought this is going to be the next big thing. Unfortunately, the studio was hoping for more than the $188 million that it made, you know, because, yeah, I think probably a lot of money to market this too. So it probably just came in, you know, as profitable question mark. Question mark. But there you go. All right. Christmas season. So maybe at least some award nominations. Nope, none of that either. Critics were pretty missed on it. So, yeah, when this comes out, Midi is considered a flop. But as we said, it has had a long and curvy afterlife. Congrats to the people's letterbox who have made it number 139 on the letterbox top 250. By the way, I remember years after this, having some critics over for a meeting at my house for the National Society of Critics, because we're spread out all over the country. So I used to host like the LA wing where I'd have brunch. We'd wake up, we'd vote on all the way that year. Remember you tell me about this. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember when you're realizing two of the people on my couch also liked Midi. And we just had this little Midi pow house. I said, we're like, Midi, you're a Midi person, you're a Midi person. And it's the thing we share. I love that. You know, watching this movie recently for the podcast, I was really struck because what I realized was this is an independent movie with a blockbuster budget. Right. You could see this movie or we've seen versions of this movie done with none of the special effects or the ability to kind of travel the world. And I think that is the beauty of it. But I also think that is the reason why people are a little, you know, dismissive of it. Right. It's a small movie in a big movies package. I can say that actually. That's a good way of phrasing because I think people distrust that kind of movie. Like there's nothing about this movie that I feel like is easy to distrust. We should just get into that. Right. Like a movie that tells you how to live your life, but it feels a little bit too shiny. Yeah. But you know, I think that that's potentially the wrong reading of it. Right. It's not like go out there and go to Afghanistan. I think it's really just saying we do so much of living in routine, break out of your routine, find out who you are. Like our routine kind of dictates our unhappiness. And that really is at the core of the Thurber short story. Right. The idea that he's doing these errands, something that's mindless and the days are just passing by him. Right. This isn't like pay it forward. Remember that movie? I refuse to watch that. Oh, I saw it. No, no, God, no. But you know, like where it's like, this is how we live life. We pay it forward. No, it's really just, I think showing how routine can make us feel like we're in a rut. And, you know, and I remember when I first watched it, there was a thought that I had where I'm like, well, Ben Stiller is like, on a very attractive guy, right? He's a sexy guy. How could he be this kind of nerdy loser? And I feel like the transformation that his character makes, which is subtle and I think really well done is kind of the most beautiful part of this movie, right? It's not be someone different. It's just allow yourself to be kind of seasoned by like living life. And that's really what happens to him. Well, because we see like him fantasize being somebody different. Like he fantasizes going into a mountain in a poster and coming back as this like version of Walter Mitty that's tall and has an accent. Right. The ice, Jace, she moves like a woman. I'm Walter Mitty. Cheryl Melhoff. Where have you been? Testing the limits of the human spirit. I'd like to climb your hair, test that out. Perhaps I can contact you possibly through my poetry, the balcony. Poetry Falcon. I like that. That's a version of him that he can't be, right? He can't become like a taller guy who's somehow magically from I don't even know what accent that is. I couldn't tell you what's next as as ridiculous as mine when I try to do an accent, but he can grow a little goatee and have this glow up of just like confidence. Like I can leave the house. Well, you know, maybe that's the difference between our fantasy and our actual life because we often fantasize like we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, right? We are ourselves, but we also are this completely different version of who we are. Yeah, or we're holding ourselves to an imaginary impossible standard and considering that success. Right. We don't need to go that far. And I think that that's like the real beauty of it, but it's subtle, right? If this movie did, you know, do something simpler or dumber like, hey, everybody, take time to daydream. It might have actually caught on in a bigger way. But I think the beauty of this is its subtlety. And we thought that made this a perfect time to look back, see what the hell we did and why the show still seems to resonate with fans around the world today. Follow and listen to how we made your mother wherever you get your podcasts. Darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time. And when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And man, it is so good to be back. Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8 a.m. Eastern on youtube.com slash the glass cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark. I mean, this movie looks like it's shot all over the world. But besides New York, they only go one other place. Yeah, I didn't know Iceland had deserts. Are you kidding me? No, I mean, Iceland is Afghanistan. Yeah, what? And it's also Greenland. Yeah, they do everything there. It's pretty amazing. Isn't the idea that Iceland was called Iceland to keep people away in Greenland is actually the colder, more uninhabitable one? That is exactly it. It's early propaganda. Is it propaganda? What is misleading, false advertising? I don't know what the right word would be. That is for our geography podcast. We'll get into that. We'll break down all the continents. I do think that this movie looks unbelievable and it's a film, truly a film because it was shot on anamorphic. It was, you know, I think this is probably right at the edge where we're going more digital. Yeah, and some of the digital effects look really digital, but I think Silla was trying to make this point of, hey, I'm nervous about this fact of us all living in a digital cloud world. I want to make sure that this film is tangible. I mean, he's making a film where one of the main characters is this photographer played by Sean Penn, who does not should do digital, you know, and Walter, Walter Mitty himself does not work in digital. He has that crazy job. He's a negative asset manager, but that's because he literally works with photo negatives. You know, it's, it's all about the tangibility, which is one of the elements in this film that I thought like in 2013, okay, yeah, it in 2026 as a recording this, I'm like, oh, yes, and there should not be everything on the cloud. Yeah. And I think what I love about this movie is it does really embrace the analog. And when you see them in these rooms and you look at what Life magazine was, there's something really beautiful about it. I think we've seen culturally us come back to wanting things that we can touch that are there, right? You even in our film cameras, we are, you know, we're doing things where we're selling digital cameras that you can't see the image that you just took. So you don't get caught trying to capture the perfect image. That is an invention that I think the Sean Penn kind of character would love. I mean, listen to the scene. When are you going to take it? Sometimes I don't. If I like a moment made me personally, I don't like to have the distraction of the camera. I just want to stay in it. I love that. I love that scene. I had a teacher who told me that in college, I actually told her whole class at college and we just were like, this guy's a dick. Now I appreciate what he was saying. There are these ways of being with the world. And I think that this movie selling things to keep us off our phones. Yes, I'm addicted to one. I have the brick. I love where you keep your brick. I keep my brick on my phone. I'm bricked pretty much all week except for maybe 90 minutes in my brick keeps me on Instagram. It's the best. I love Instagram, but if you've noticed, I haven't been on Instagram as much. I've bricked so long that I forget about Instagram and it's amazing. I love hearing that. People have been saying that the brick is one of the best things they've ever done. And now I thought the idea was just... But like the buy a thing to keep us off a thing that we already own? Like it's so crazy. Hey, you know, it's an addiction, right? Think about the cigarette industry or the anti-smoking industry. Like there's Nicarat patches. There's gum. There's hypnosis. There's so many things to keep you off the thing, right? That's it. Yeah, exactly. It took a long time for my thumbs to stop instinctively going to Instagram every time I had to wait in line longer than 10 seconds. I know, that's when I'm... I thought that's when we're supposed to be able to do it, but I guess maybe that's where you're supposed to be thinking and enjoying it. To be embracing the boredom, right? To be imagining. To be imagining. Like what this movie said, we don't even have time to imagine because we're just looking at things. And what I do love about Stiller's character in this is he is not a guy who's like, guys, we need to have tangible things. We need to imagine. We need to live in the now. I mean, he's the gatekeeper of a dying art, which is film photography and making sure those negatives stay, right? Because that's our history there. And I think to your point, doesn't want to go digital in the cloud. This movie is about film. I think it makes sense why he's shooting this on film and not wanting it to be the Adam Scott version of the movie. So, yes, I think that this is a character who we have seen before, achieved something very different than what we have seen before as well, right? We have this opening that we know, oh, he's the nice guy who's too shy. The girl doesn't notice him. And I think it's beautifully articulated in the scene where Ben Stiller is talking to Kristen Wiig's son. Her son's a skateboarder. Ben Stiller used to be a skateboarder. Yeah. And there's a scene where she is on the phone, has her back towards Stiller and her son, and Stiller is doing these amazing tricks on the skateboard because he used to be a skateboarder, right? And she's just missing them, not because she's oblivious, but I think it also shows us like Stiller's character is kind of cool, right? He used to skateboard. He could do this. And so when you see him skateboard at the end of the movie, it's not like, he's cool. He learned how to skateboard. It's actually kind of not even earned. It's just a part of his character. I was having lunch with a friend the other day who told me like, oh, yeah, I always envision myself as a skateboarder. That's who I was as a kid. Oh, wow. I didn't really realize that that was something that was you, but there's a coolness to that. Yeah, like that's of course Stiller's a skateboard. He can still be a skateboarder. I don't, I remember that moment getting goofed on so much that he was skateboarding towards the end of the movie, but it's earned. It's earned and set up beautifully. Yeah. And I think actually Stiller is doing a chunk of his actual skateboarding in that. I don't think he's doing all of it, but I think you actually can skate and he's doing the close ups. But right, because to your point of what you're making, this isn't a movie about a guy who's like, I hate the world. I don't want to go into the world. I'm anti the world. This is a movie about a guy who hoped he would go to the world and then he just got derailed. You know, he has that story that he tells about why he is traumatized by the side of a Papa John's, what happened to him when he was a kid and his life didn't get to go the way that he planned. So you said that you left Papa John's because of the cups. Is there something I should be aware of as a customer? No, I just, I worked there. That's all. I used to have a mohawk and a backpack and I guess this idea of who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. And nothing, just I was pretty close with my dad. And he died when I was 17 on a Tuesday and we didn't have any savings. So I got a haircut that Thursday and a job the same Thursday. Papa John's? Yeah. I love that because it speaks to even just the futures we imagine for ourselves and have a hard time reaching because things are always getting in the way. You know, and also, can we just say I think part of why this movie turned people off too is just the product placement is so visible and crazy and big, but also often negative, which is strange too. It's like, we'll take your Papa John's money. We'll show a lot of Papa John's cups. We'll talk about why Papa John's is terrifying and like represents horror and trauma to this guy. We'll have you get like pat down by the TSA and we'll give you a Cinnabon and we'll give you a real good long close up of the Cinnabon. But then we're going to call it this. How long were you detained for by the way? Like 17 hours. Wow. How's that Cinnabon taste? Really great. That's like that's frosted heroin. What you're eating, my friend. That's what you're having right there, man. I mean, it's strange, right? This movie, I think, does kind of straddle two worlds like big, small product placement. Yes, product placement. No. I mean, I guess what I'm saying is how impossible to try to make a very big blockbuster movie that is commercial but is also against commercialism. Right? Because like all of his interactions with the commercial product kind of help his awakening. Right? It's like kind of like, oh, this is dumb. Like these things are dumb. It's not like, oh, this is my comfort food. Yeah. Why is there a Papa John's in Iceland? Why am I traveling the world and the world is the same? Let me tell you, Amy, I did eat at a Pizza Hut in Iraq. Really? Yeah. How is it? Really? It was just Pizza Hut. Yeah. It was exactly the same? I mean, kind of. Did you get the same toppings? We might have even went to a Papa John's in London for my kids at one point. Yeah. I mean, I am all about going to McDonald's in foreign countries just to be like, what do you have here? Like I remember going to Keeve and they were really into McDonald's serving, oh, what was it? Lavender flavored lemonade. And I was like, bizarre. I'll get it. It's those little things where it's like, okay, I'll allow it. I'll allow it because it's like your world a bit different. It almost helps you see the changes in things. Right. Yeah. I think that like that is really what this movie is. It's like, look, like how do you look at things? You can look at things through this window that is like the invisible now, or you can actually look at the world and say, I can actually achieve that. I can actually go and do that. Now, yes, he travels the world and is it possible? Clearly he goes broke, right? And this whole, you know, this thing that he was going to do, which is like get his mom who is clearly in the twilight of her life played by Shirley Maclean and beautifully done. I mean, wow, this casting in this is just A plus John Daly. I mean, there's no way that that's not done as like a shout out the apartment too, right? Right. We were talking about that as well. Right. Yeah. And then I was like, yeah, we based Renee Zellweger on her. Like I definitely read that Stiller would watch the apartment as he was writing this. So it feels like, yeah, we actually wait. That's true. Shirley Maclean was the first actress he cast. So he was going all in on the apartment. And I do think that this movie does show this thing like he wants to move his mom into an apartment that can fit this piano. But like, why? Why do we still need this piano? And you hear these reasons why? And like Shirley Maclean's like, I don't care. I don't really care about it. And you know, we, we, we put all the stuff around us and does it really make a difference? And I think that again, these are small changes. They're very small. And I think that that makes probably most people who go to see this feel like less fulfilled because it doesn't, we want to see the Rachel Lee Cook, sorry for this old reference, take off her glasses, pull the, you know, the scrungy out of her hair and become Rachel Lee Cook. Right. But and that's what we've been trained to do. I think that that's probably the issue with movies and the issues with like this transformation. We, we tell normal people, well, you can change. You can actually become super hot. You know, it's not about your personality. It's about like who you are. Like if you're just hot, then your personality will shine through. Right. And we're trained to accept it. And we want like we're like Pavlov's dogs. We want to see that big thing and not to say that he doesn't change. He looks cooler at the end. I mean, definitely looks cooler at the end of the movie. Right. They call him, that knows what calls him a cross of Indiana Jones and the lead singer of the strokes. He just has a goatee. He actually just looks more like Adam Scott. They both just got facial hair now. But Adam Scott is like ridiculous. His goatee died. Like it's real unnatural. It does look a little, yeah, it does look a little crazy. But I also love it. Like I think that there is a manicured nature to very rich people that I really appreciate here. And I also think if he doesn't have that facial hair, he looks too similar to Ben Stiller. That's fair. Adam Scott is just so good at drilling into these negative, awful people who remind you of like the bully when you were young. Yeah. I mean, the way he just calls Ben Stiller a cake man, like just the delivery of cake man is so mean, right? And it's like, it is bully behavior, right? It's like, and it's getting less like he's not an over the top bad guy, right? He's just kind of a dick. He's just a dick who's been put in charge of this magazine that he doesn't know about, doesn't really care about, that he doesn't invest in the motto. You know, I love how they expose his confident ignorance. Like he's like, like the quintessence scene, right? I expect full consideration of negative 25 for cover, my most grand, the quintessence of life. The what is that? It's quintessence. It's like the fullest and most rich. Okay. It will probably be the most famous ever because it really will have the big quintessence of all time, very full and so rich. Like not only does he just not know what that word exactly means, but he has to act like it means, you know, is what it means. He's like, let's go get some quintessence. You know, I heard a great story where a friend was correcting a very famous person who is very established and actually you got that wrong. It was this. And then the response from the famous bigger producer was, yes, yeah, I know. I know he got it wrong. No, no, like I know the answer. Like if he said like, oh yeah, the answer is Iceland. And you said, actually it's Greenland. You're like, no, no, yeah, I know. Like, well, no, you didn't know. But like you can't even. That to me is like the perfect level of, I couldn't do it the voice clearly. I think the people know who I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the complete just contradiction and how that could be. Yeah, like you are wrong, but you're never going to even admit that you are close to being wrong. The one that sticks with me actually that sort of related to that is like when I very first moved to LA, like very first, I'd lived here less than a couple months. For some reason, I like befriended a really wonderful person who was a composer who brought me to the set of their score that they were recording, which was directed by a pretty big director. So I'm sitting watching just a score get made and it's really, really cool. I feel like so awesome to be there and the director comes and sits down next to me and I've got this crossword puzzle in my hand that I'm doing and the director puts a word in that is wrong in my crossword puzzle. Oh my God. And I'm 22. So I'm just like, okay, and I just let it pass. And I still feel shame over that moment. I just let them put something wrong in my crossword puzzle. What do you do? I couldn't correct it. You can't really correct it, right? Like, you know, I think that where this movie maybe goes off the rails for me is it's got a very odd structure to it. Like there's a moment where you're like, oh, the movie is over and then it goes on for about 45 more minutes. Yeah. Again, that's not to say that I don't like those 45 minutes, but when you're watching the movie, it's like, oh, I feel like we've hit, we've hit the apex. We get it, right? Like he didn't find it, but it, but yet it's working and Eric, why didn't people like it? And it kind of has that same issue that a lot of people kind of ding funny people for, right? This extra chunk at the end that you're like, oh, but I liked it up to here. I don't know if I like it over here. And right, because it's just shaggy enough. It doesn't seem like you would have had to go home, honestly. Right. And I don't know, like that to me is my issue with this movie is like I, and it's a small one because I actually, I mean, then if I cut out that, I'm not finding the Sean Penn part, right? And I'm not getting these other moments that I think are really fulfilling. Yeah. I just think you just have to go home. Like what does he go home for to find out that everybody got fired and that she's, that her like partners there that you can imagine that Kristen Wiig is back with her ex-husband, he could just call her. It doesn't, it doesn't have to happen with him like going home. Right. And it also then I think takes me out of the movie too, because I start to buy the idea that he's traveling around and he's getting these like puddle jumpers to the next place, to the next place, to the next place. And he's it like the, the adventure is kind of building up around him. But the minute he goes home, I'm like, oh, then you have to pack up again and go back out. Like, you know, they're, they're like, they're, I don't know. I guess because he's not independently wealthy. He doesn't have all the, these tools at his disposal. But that's that to me, I think breaks my fantasy of the movie, right? Because the movie is like, I'm, I've bought in at this point. And I think in a weird way, in a movie where you are breaking for fantasies, I almost feel like this movie breaks for reality. And that's the section where he goes back and is like, oh, everything hasn't changed. It's not magical. And that I think is like, you're in like, oh, you know, just kind of like it stops the flow. Yeah. Cause that one real moment, like he has those build up moments of really investing in this journey. Like first he just goes to Greenland in the first page, which is a big one, but then he almost stops there because he's like, okay, well now Sean Penn is on a boat. The only way I can get there is this really, really drunk, like this really, really drunk helicopter pilot who was mad that he broke up with his girlfriend and his decision to risk his life to get on that helicopter where he sees Kristen Wiig come out and she sings to him and she sings major Tom. And he does that, I think really beautiful kind of countdown of running onto the helicopter and investing. Like that's the investment moment. And you kind of just want his trip to kind of tumble off after there to spill over the dump. Let's hear a little bit of that song actually, cause I love it. So yeah, I think after that leap, it's like he's just making a second leap to go to Afghanistan. It doesn't have to happen that way. It just, just the big leap. He goes continually on this journey. Right. The leap is starting. Right. Yeah. And I think it's, it's interesting because the movie does also, and this is not like a spoiler because we're talking about what we've already seen, but the beauty of the end is he does his job. Like he does do his job, right? He's never breaking off of his job. And I feel like they're trying to like make us understand that this is still in the real world. And I, I feel like the movie is wrestling with the fact that it's even a movie, right? And that, in that way, it's like, well, life isn't like a movie. Like you would go back and then maybe you would go again, but it's like that, I think wrecks the flow of what's happening. Yeah. And in a way, it kind of reminded me of what we were talking about last week with the bizarre movie structure of Jerry Maguire, how it starts with the ending and then tries to undo the ending and like rewind and how it almost feels like it's kind of dissecting movie conventions as it's going on. Like that scene where Tom Cruise is in the car. He's trying to have his big moment. I got Kush. I want to sing. It's that movie moment where I'm like the happy person in the car and the singing and triumph, but he doesn't know the songs on the radio. And so he can't get that scene for a second. Yeah. It feels like this movie is almost like that too. You know, having all of these scenes in your head that have to be right, but not quite right. They can't really work. It almost is trying to define movie convention. But it doesn't really play with it. Whereas I feel like there's an intentionality to those scenes in Jerry Maguire. Right. The idea is like, what if we started a movie with the end? What if we have that triumphant moment and pull the air out from it? You know, it's like, it's though, I think that that's a little bit more intentional where it feels, I don't think it's trying to comment on anything that in that same way. Although I will say, do you think that Patton Oswalt is a fictional character or is a real character? Oh, okay. Now, if we're getting into this, okay, here we go. Cause what funny thing about the Patton Oswalt e-harmonic character is my very good friend, I first moved out to LA had Patton Oswalt's job. He was a customer service person for e-harmonic. Oh, wow. And he wore white shirts like that too. So when Patton Oswalt walks on screen, I'm always just laughing because on a very practical level, which is not what you're asking, he is such a real person to me because I'm like, oh, that's my roommate. Right? Right. And I loved asking him questions about the inner life of e-harmonic because it was fascinating. You know, he worked there around, he stopped working there by this time. But yeah, it's very intense to be a customer service person for e-harmonic because you have made plans that you are going to help people find the love of their life. And oh my goodness, I don't think he was calling people all the time like this, being like best friends, but still very funny. What I think you're asking is could this entire movie be a fantasy inside his own brain? Like is this entire thing a dream? Cause it almost gets too magical in moments where like, wait, this cake is here. You have the cake from your mom. This piano is your mom. Like all the things that tie it together almost seem too perfect. I guess what I'm thinking is it's 2013. Chances are this is all over email. And I love the idea that it's articulated through Patton and his voice is fantastic. And you're kind of, he's like a narrator, like giving him, he's a cheerleader. Feedback. He's like, you're doing it, you're doing it. The cell service is working on the top peaks of mountain ranges in Afghanistan. Yeah. And the only part of it that kind of takes me out of it is that Patton is the person he calls when he's like trapped in LA after he like beats up, you know, the person in the airport, which I think is a little unmotivated, but yeah. Oh, and it looks just like, doesn't it look just like total recall? Yeah. Oh God, split lives and split identities. Wait, it is all coming around. Oh my God, living in it. Oh my gosh. Living in your imagination. What you think your life is. Do you think that's on purpose? Cause I do booze. Yes. I think that this is a remake of total recall. And that's what I was getting to. Really? No. Oh, I mean, but yes, but it also is true. But actually now I'm convincing myself. Welcome to the realms of peril and glory. For the mechanically magical vistas of veil, the paranormal mysteries of liminal London, and the cyberpunk chaos of cyborg. Be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows like Ox Venture and No Rolls Bard. Search realms of peril and glory to find out more. Gentlemen, let's talk hair. If your hair isn't playing like it did in your twenties, it might be time for change. A little work around because here's the thing. Throwing hat on is not a strategy. 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We need to know so we can change it and make sure that we get that new password in there. Secure your privacy with surf shark. It's completely risk free with their 30 day money back guarantee. Right now go to surf shark.com slash unspooled and use our code unspooled to get four extra months at checkout. That link and code are also in our show notes. Unspooled. But I think there's an argument to be made with the exception of that scene that Patton is not real because he is just pushing him to take chances. There's no one else in his life to do that. You know, and I mean, look, the movie, it's, you know, stretch arms strong, like stretch yourself out. He works at Life Magazine. Life is closing, but he's got to embrace life. There's a lot of these things out there like that are very much not even say nail in the head because that's a negative thing to say. It's just like, but it's very, it's bold. It's broad. It's right. It's, it's as big as the Papa John's. It's as big as e-harmony. I mean, many people thought, oh, this is an ad for e-harmony. It definitely feels like, oh, I would love to put myself on e-harmony because not me, but I mean, but after seeing this because of the time and care that they take to kind of help me along. But even if they meet in person, really, it doesn't, yeah, they never actually match through e-harmony in a way. She doesn't respond to any links. So do you, right. So it's also showing the bullshit of that. So I guess the question is, do you think he's real or false? So do you think that he's real or imagined? I'm going to take that one step further and say, I do think there's a reading or the entire movie is imagined. I do think there's a reading where this entire movie is inceptioned because the last shot that we really see of him walking down the street with Kristen Wiig, everything's great. He's on the cover of Life Magazine because it's about honoring the people who made it about honoring the workers, which I think is beautiful. And this movie actually has a very pro worker stance, as opposed to the rich people who buy journalism jobs and shut them down, which I find very near and dear to my heart because that's incredibly true, acquisitions and everybody losing their job. But that last shot and the way we see them, there's something weird happening with the camera lens that we see one other time in the film where it's being filmed through the loop that he's looking at, where the frame is kind of watery, beautiful, strange, unreal. We've seen him look through that loop one other time when he sees her outside, when she comes up and talks to him while he's looking at negatives. It makes me paranoid that this is all in his fantasy because the loop is his eyeball looking out at the world when he's kind of there and kind of not there. Hmm. I don't want to think that's true because I want to just believe in the heart of this movie as is. He did it. He did it. And I'm so proud of him because honestly, the journey that he goes on is the real reward, even more than Kristen Wiig, I think, just the journey itself. But man, it makes me nervous though. You know? You know, and now what I'm also thinking about in the filmography of Ben Stiller, and forgive me if I'm missing something here, but if I'm thinking about reality bites, Tropic Thunder and this movie, I'm thinking about real people versus fake people, you know, and who we are versus who we want to be. And I think that there's something with like Michael and Troy and reality bites. And like Troy is pretending to be something but actually risking nothing where Michael is looking like he's nothing but actually doing something. You know, Tropic Thunder, all these people who look like action heroes, but actually are idiots and dopes. And this is a movie, you know, like it's a really like Ben Stiller is often, I think, wrestling with this idea of identity. Right? Who are we and who do we look like and what does it mean? And, you know, I know that you, you know, you talk, I mean, even look, you could even push it and say like, Zoolander has elements of that too. Like who am I like you judge me for this. Yeah. In Zoolander, I think because this movie didn't do well, the only other film he actually directs after this besides a documentary on his parents is Zoolander too. And he hasn't made a movie after that. He's switched over to TV and doing sovereigns, which I think is very much about identity and he's been, you know, acting in other people's movies. Like another movie I love that I will champion until the end of time, Brad status directed by Mike White. So good. So good. And also about identity. Greenberg is great. I love that. But he is, I think that is kind of his lane. I love that you're pointing that out, you know, and you wouldn't expect it from a guy is sort of born to parents already in the business of performing that he would be so invested in this idea of like, am I real or not? Am I a success or not? How do I measure success? Am I measuring against my dreams or other people's dreams for me? But that is so his lane. And I, yeah, it's kind of straight from it. No, it really is about these personalities that we have. I think that's kind of indicative of being a child of performers, also having a private life and a personal life that you have to balance like who you are and what people want you to be. Obviously, you know, he is a person who everybody wants him to be funny all the time. And, you know, and he maybe is not that all the time I've worked with Ben Stiller and a handful of times and he is awesome and so creative and so hands on. And, you know, there's probably there's a part of people. Look, I grew up on Ben Stiller show. I love Ben Stiller show. It made a big difference in my life as far as like what sketch comedy could be. But he's not the character from dodgeball. He's not Zoolander. He is more like these characters in, you know, Noah Bombeck movies or, you know, Mike White movies. These what, you know, these smaller characters that he plays, which yeah, like when we did our reality bites, hilarious. Yes. Yeah. Like when we got when he did that episode, it was all about his own anxieties too. You know, he was like really hard on on the cast because he was so determined to excel at this. And like Jeffrey Katzenberg, one said that like working with with Ben Stiller, even just on the Madagascar films, that he said the way that their relationship works. And this is a Jeffrey Katzenberg quote. I love that we're quoting Jeffrey Katzenberg twice in two weeks in a row because we've read his manifesto in the Jerry Maguire episode. He said, quote, Ben beats on me unmercifully with chains, sabers and two by fours, delivering his anxieties, frustrations and ambitions at full velocity. Like that, I think is who Ben Stiller really is. And so it's funny that so many of his comedy roles are kind of prat folly. Because it's not him. Right. And, you know, Mitty sees himself, he goes outside of himself and sees who he wants to be. And then there are other people who just do that thing, pretend they are that taller person. Right. We've talked about, I know I talked about it on dark web, like height maxing. Oh, yeah. These guys who are using hammers to like change the bone structure of their face. And that reminds me of how stupid that scene is in that romantic comedy. The materialist, which like, oh, she has to break up a little bit of a cell because he's a height maxer. Oh, God, it's so stupid. I'm so stupid. Now, I will say that also there's no way his head would belong on a shorter body. That just doesn't make sense. We got a neck length, too. But this I want to go back to Adam Scott, because we're talking about his beard. And Ben Stiller was talking about this idea, like in the script, it was written that he had this kind of Grecian formula business beard. And that, I think, is a term that is a little bit older, the Grecian formula, which it's this idea of, oh, it's like, it was, I think when I was a kid, I understood it to be like, it was like a beard coloring thing, right? Like you have Grecian formula was like, you never wanted to show the gray in your beard. Right. So it was like how you go see old statues of Greeks, Greeks. So they have like really crazy curls. Well, I think the idea was that like Greek men have this, you know, virality to them and the beard is thick and black. And so that was the idea, like making it really dark and black and, you know, and. Right. He's funny to have that beard. Okay. It's liberally funny to have that beard. Oh, OK, got it. Yeah. So that's what I think is like part of it. You know, it's like this thing like he's darkening his beard. I'm actually looking at it right now. Grecian formula is a progressive liquid or cream coloring product for men to gradually reduce gray hair over several weeks by darkening it with each application. Wow. You know, so. I don't know about that. I kind of like a salt and pepper and a beard. Yeah, me too. And but when you look at like all these these the logos in their boxes and stuff, it's about like it is just about I won't want to show my age. I want to, you know, do this, you know, I'm looking at a hilarious one right now of DJ Khaled, you know, talking about a beard guy who is, you know, coloring that thing a little bit darker. You know, Pete Rose did ads for Grecian formula. You know, it's like because he was gray, you know, I don't know. I think that like that idea of like, what's your virility? Where is your virility at? So anyway, I'm just fascinated by this idea that he is constantly wrestling with. Who are we? Who do we appear to be? What's better or worse to fantasize or live a lie? And this movie is a saying. Do what you do. Like he doesn't become. I mean, what does he become at the end? I don't think he changes his career. Like we don't know where he's off to or what is going to become of him. Right. There's no, you know, there's no real ending. I think that we feel like if anything, the book ends of this movie is. He is somebody worthy of being in a relationship because he actually is being his true self. And he has the courage to go out and try to date her. Right. But he is not a different person. He is like he he took some chances. He I think will be a better partner. Right. I always believe that like in a relationship, it takes two people to keep the fire of a relationship going, not, you know, even romantically. But just like your own personality, you can't be flat while another person's alive, right? You both have to be kind of, I think that was exciting to your partner to say, oh, I'm working on things. I'm dealing with things good, bad, whatever. You know, even if you're depressed, you have to come back up. It's just you want to see somebody. Challenge being challenged, you know, and and you're rooting for them to thrive. But I think that like he's a character that was just. Trying to not rock the boat. I mean, but it is interesting, though, that the date they finally go on, because it opens with the mind to wink at her and go on a date. It ends and I'm going on a date finally, maybe for real starting to go on a date. What he asks her to do is he asked her to go to his sister's production of Greece in a church. And it's not even the coolest date in the world. It's just like the best thing. Yeah, it's right. It's a great date, but it's not like, hey, baby, let's go to Paris. You know, well, right. That's what I think it's so. Yes, it's what a real date could be. And she says something I find really interesting after that. I actually always related to Rizzo more. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Was the smoking in the teenage sex? No, she was just real, I guess. OK, think about this. Her last line in the movie, she likes Rizzo because she's real. What we have seen him do this entire movie is not just fantasizing about himself, but fantasizing about her, too. You know, right? He doesn't really know her, actually. And I love how Kristen Wiig plays this role. Every time we see her, she's talking really normal, acting really normal. She's not being kind of a fantasy girl character. She's not like a manic pixie girl in this. I love how normal she is. She's insecure. Am I talking too much about my fridge? But this statement of like, Rizzo is real, you know, like a girl who's real. I think is really important because what he was fantasizing her about that she was the woman in Benjamin Button for Christ's. Now I have to play that. Can I tell you something? Anything. I have that Benjamin Button thing. Where you get old, but smaller or whatever and become a gradual old baby or something. I didn't see the movie, so I don't really know how it works, but I have it. We can still build a life together. Cool. I like your snappy little suit. I bought it at a doll store. Oh, cool. My little heart is no bigger than a quarter. But it's as full as board knocks. You're the bravest man I've ever known. I love you, baby. Not like baby, like because you're a baby. Like baby, like because you look like a little weird baby, man. I get it. Thank you for such a wonderful life. Just nestle in here and die. And that's so funny. He's like, I know that's not even how Benjamin Button works, but I like how beautiful it is that it just makes no sense. And and I think this idea that you don't need to do anything. And that, you know, sorry. To your point, I think if at the end of the movie, he took her and they got on a hot air balloon or they went to Paris, like that's not life. But I'll tell you, this guy who's unemployed, dating this single mom, they're going to go see it. They're going to go see a church production of Greece. It's not going to be probably great, but they'll have a great time. You don't need to go to Afghanistan. You don't need to jump out of a helicopter. Right. By the way, I love the helicopter pilot who I believe was the husband on the Amazing Maria Bamford show. He is great. A little Easter egg in the movie is that he says you shouldn't cheat on your girlfriend in the country with eight people. And then you only see eight other people there. So you get the actual idea of those people. He's also, I think, in Eurovision, another movie I did. Oh, yes. Yeah. But that, that to me is, I think that's the hopeful part. But I guess the question that I keep on coming back to is, do people not respond to this movie because it's not giving them the candy, right? It's not giving them the fantasy that we have chosen to believe in when we see a movie like this, right? They like the hero saves the day, but there's nothing like the magazine doesn't come back online. His picture is beautiful. And it, you know, obviously it's of him, but it's also about the magazine, right? It's, it. Are we rejecting it because it's almost too true to life? I mean, I think that we are rejected it when it first came out, maybe because of those reasons, and maybe because I think the movie does lean a little bit too much on score or, you know, like really good big pop songs. I mean, in a way, this was a moment just in pop culture that was kind of at the tail end of how much do we embrace over the top of motion? Yeah, this was kind of at the end of that whole series of movies, like pursuit of happiness or the magical dollar goes all around the world and like follow it around or we know things where it's like, we're leaving in kind of a Hollywood version of how life should be or could be if we all just like hugged and loved each other a little bit more. And it was strange. I feel like we had this weird, really intense period that I just think of as like early 2000s films, you know, where everything felt a little too squishy, everything was a little too magical, everything was a little too high concept. And I think this comes in and kind of gets lumped into that because it really looks and moves like that, even though it isn't. Right. Because I think that we're judging it by. This is the issue that I sometimes have is like people don't understand irony anymore, right? If you write it down, it's like, well, it must, that's what you must have meant. There's no way of reading anything with a critical eye. And so, yes, while there are things like, what is it? Arcade fire playing, you know, like wake up when he's, you know, leaving wherever he's leaving, right? And that feels like, look, it works for me. I'm not mad about it. But I also. It bulls you over with how much hard it has in a way that can make people be like, ah, you know, right. And I think that like there's also an energy. I'm going to take out the commercials and things. I think we already discussed that. But there, I think that there's always a negativity towards positivity. Right. Like I just want to reiterate, like I don't think this is a movie that's preaching anything more than. Savor moments, right? Like live life that that's. Oh, if that's positive, then we really have it in the bottom barrel, right? It's like, it's not like everything is good. It's not like it's not like everything will work out. It's just really like. Just be in the moment, be who you are. And, you know, I feel like. You know, people are upset, like, well, he's not a loser anymore. And I would argue he's never a loser. He's just him and he hasn't changed. Like he's not he's not cooler or anything. I think the movie does a really smart job of that. But I think you put a beard on this guy and you go, his life changed. He was a nerdy guy. Now he's got a beard. This is bullshit. I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know. I can't quite figure it out. But I think that there is like an issue with positivity. I mean, I think that's true. I think this movie really does want to make you feel something. Even if I think kind of there's a part of Ben Slur that's crossing his fingers at the very end and being like, maybe we'll see if this was true. But like it wants so hard to trigger an emotion. And I think it does. Like it really works on me too. But it works on me even as I'm going, oh man, this arcade fire is carrying a lot of weight. But you know what? I don't mind. You chose it and it's a total package. But isn't that okay? Isn't that what scores are supposed to do? Like I mean, right? This is kind of like the conversation we had about the notebook. Right. That the notebook works. It makes you cry. And sometimes you're like, oh man, but I really want this movie to work on me. When I'm in the mood for this movie, it really does. And I love seeing how many people it works on too. It that kind of the mutual love for MIDI makes me feel less alone as a human being. Right. And I also think like I there's I love Project Hail Mary. We've talked about it already on the show, but they used some wonderful music there that really punctures moments. And when well done, that's what these are. That's what music does. Right. It's it's Harold and Maude. Right. It's all these. But we're we're we're coming from a bunch of films that use music so effectively, even reality bites, like we can put these things in. That's the job of them. Right. It's it's but I guess there's a rejection of it when it's like, oh, you got me. Or when people go like, oh, yeah, it got me. It got me crying. I didn't want to. But it got me like, why not? Just cry. Just fine. Right. Projecting it is like being Adam Scott saying, you know what, not having anything on the cover, making it say just the end of life on a black cover. That's what's cool. Right. Yeah. To open up to something, which is the point of the whole movie in itself. But I think it is also easier to kind of go around being like, well, I really like the movie Brazil because it is kind of cynical, negative and tragic. And I love Brazil and I'm so happy we did that recently. But Brazil is, I would say, cynical, midi. It's also about a guy with a job that's a little bit dull, who daydreams about going to other places and living with his fantasy girl and flying around and having wings and does he get to do it and does he not? And he gets caught up in his own adventure. I think when you say, I love a movie that's a little bit cynical about the world. You feel kind of cool. And when you say, I love a movie that's just a big, weird, messy, strange, bleeding heart, it's harder. It's harder. So I'm so proud of everybody who's like five stars, letterbox, love this film. Yeah. And I also think that from 2013 to 2026. Um, we have only seen, I think a movie like this become more and more relevant. Right. How do we adapt in a world that's changing around us that may not need us? What are the ways that we can kind of, uh, break free of the corporate structures? I mean, we're talking about this a lot. And I don't know. I found this movie to be even more relevant now over, you know, 10 years later. Yeah. I mean, it's funny, like there was a cut of this, that I think had a scene where he winds up at the G eight, you know, that big gigantic geopolitical conference. And representing the working man against the machine to the point that MIDI plays, like gets on stage and plays rage against the machine, like performs it. And, and still are decided when he read that scene, he's like, oh, that's the first thing I have to cut because I don't want to come at people with anger in a way, even though that's also incredibly relevant. You know, this way. We were trying to get a billionaire tax on here in California. Like it's incredibly relevant, but what is it better to go forward with anger to go forward with heart? And that's tough. I think, I mean, sometimes it's sometimes anger, sometimes heart. Honestly, I go back and forth depending on my own mood. And by the way, you probably go back and forth in your own day. It's like that's on the, it's not like everything is perfect. Everything is right. But that moment with Sean Penn, who I think is brilliantly cast in this movie, it's a great, you know, we're searching for him. It's very much like, you know, moment with Orson Welles in the third man, right? You've been hearing about this character and then you see this character and it's like, oh, yeah, that's him. And he's not magical, right? And it's like, it's that funny thing where it like he has it realization that, oh, yeah, I probably shouldn't have put it in the wall. That was a little too cheeky, right? Like, I was like, hello. I was like, get mad at him a little bit, right? Yeah. What the hell are you thinking? I mean, I'm sorry, I've admired you for a very long time, but that is not a good move at all with a valuable negative. Sorry, I just thought it would be a playful kind of thing. Playful? Too playful. It's almost like you meet God. He's sitting on a mountaintop and you're like, what is your fucking problem? Yeah. It really is. That's what I think is interesting. And maybe, you know, this is a movie that. At a moment in 2013 felt saccharine at certain points because it's like, well, what, come on, it just has become more real. We are in a different cultural moment, man. Yeah. We're like, everything's fine. We did it. Congrats. We solved the world. No. Yeah. You know, I will say though, there is one other MIDI adaptation we're talking about that came out before our time, 1975 on TV, and I'm just going to play the intro music. Oh my God, that is so fucking amazing. Yes, apparently there was a show called The Adventures of Waldo Kitty. It was a Walter Mitty starring a cat. It looks like somebody just went out and filmed their cat in a backyard and a dog and another cat. And then the cat has imaginations and goes inside a normal 70 style cartoon of everything cool that the cat is doing. And then he comes out and it's like, all right, I'm back with this dog in this version. That is, I love it. I'm going to put that on our sub stack for sure. I mean, that is, I kind of want to watch it again. Most of the episodes are on YouTube. So you can really deep dive into The Adventures of Waldo Kitty. Oh my gosh. Well, Amy, I think this is really great. A great way to kind of end up our, you know, larger conversation about. You know, who we are, what we want to be, how our work defines us and how to break free from that and the scariness of doing that. I mean, all the way back to total recall, right? We have been dealing with the fantasy versus the reality. But how do you bring some of that fantasy into your daily life? And maybe that's the only thing that this movie is trying to say is, like, can't we just bring a little bit of that fun back to our lives? And isn't that what movies help us do? Exactly, exactly. And I think that, you know, it's a shame sometimes when directors are ahead of the curve and we've seen this numerous times, you know, I am glad that this movie has gotten embraced and kind of edged up on lists and in people's minds. Yeah, as recently as 2016, Rolling Stone voters voted it their number three favorite Ben Stiller movie, which is pretty big, honestly. I mean, number one and number two are, I believe, Tropic Thunder and There's Something About Mary, two movies I also want to do. But to be number three after those, that's incredible, honestly. That's, I mean, his career is pretty iconic across the board. And like you said, like, oh, he stopped directing movies and then directed like this show that is visually one of the most interesting shows on television, right? Like, regardless of, I know you don't, you've only watched one episode of it, you weren't into it, but it is one of those shows that when you watch it, you're like, oh my God, like, how are they doing this? And I hear it gets really good. That's just my problem with TV, man. It takes so long to get to the good stuff. I know, I know. Well, you know, I don't think that show does, but, but yeah, you know, maybe give it another shot, I think. All right. All right, maybe I will. Give me a horrible cold. And then when I stay home for a couple of weeks, I'll have it. I'll watch it. I love it. You know, when your daddy died and then you went to work in that pizza place, the one that was named after a father, had that father kind of name. Papa John's, yeah, delivery. And I thought perhaps that it was really sad for you working in a restaurant named after a father, after your father just died. I never even thought about that. Probably because I didn't call dad Papa. All right, well, Amy, next week, we are going to look ahead to see if maybe are there any other Walter Midees in our, on our view as we take a look at summer movies. We're going to be looking at summer movies, a little taste of summer. What do you want to see? Let us know in the discord. Also make sure you're reading our sub-stack as we'll post that kitty and we'll also do some other stuff as well. And then while Amy is away, I can. I like hearing Paul say he's going to post his kitty. I'm going to post my kitty. We are going to have a very special lineup of amazing guests with their favorites. We're calling it unspooled critics choice. Everyone's going to bring one of their favorite films, films that we have not done here on the show and talk about why they are their favorites. And I got to tell you, killer lineup, killer lineup for y'all. I'm so excited. I'm so jealous. I wish I could be there. I will be locked in bookland, nightmare land and also can, which will be fun, but bookland, nightmare land. So my book is due. I'm turning my book in a month. I'm so excited. Cannot wait to read it. I'm sure it is amazing. All right, Amy, make sure you subscribe and check out our brand new YouTube page, which has nothing on it yet. But it will at at get unspooled. So YouTube dot com at get unspooled. Just sign up. And when we start launching, you'll see. And make sure you check out our substack each and every week to go a little bit deeper on the movies that we talk about here. It's always free. So join in the conversation. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Shear, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Corey Barton, music by Devon Bryant. Episode art by Kim Troxell. Show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now. Legendary stories, awe inspiring sound and endless adventure. Welcome to the realms of peril and glory. Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale. The paranormal mysteries of liminal London. And the cyberpunk chaos of Cyprus. 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