Letting Go of What Drains You and Coming Back to Yourself with Therapist and Author Kate King

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It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles designer marketer logistics manager all while bringing your vision to life shopify helps millions of business sell online build fast with templates and ai descriptions and photos inventory and shipping sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl that's shopify.nl it's time to see what you can accomplish with shopify by your side We are Allie and Erica, certified integrative nutrition health coaches in gut and hormone health and the hosts of the podcast Courageous Wellness. We are committed to destigmatizing conversations in the wellness space and celebrate the experiences and lessons of our guests in pursuit of physical, emotional, and spiritual wellness. Listen to Courageous Wellness wherever you get your podcasts with fresh episodes every Wednesday. Hi, everybody. You are listening to Judging Megan with your host, Megan Judge. Let's just start with this. I went on this really amazing walk this morning. Kate, before I introduce you, I live at the beach in Manhattan Beach, California. And I was on a walk with a dear friend of mine. And I talk on the podcast a lot about signs. The listeners know this. Um, it's probably one of my favorite things to talk about is signs that people that have passed are still with us. I really believe that I've had so many, I've been doing this podcast five years. I mean, just the craziest signs that people guests have come on and told me, and I just believe there's no way that there's, they're not, no matter if you're Christian, you're Jewish, you're Buddhist, whatever you are, I think, me personally, I believe that they're still with us. And we were talking, my friend and I were talking on this walk. And she told me this story about how she lost someone and her alarm always goes off every morning. And it's like, beep, beep, beep. And then all of a sudden, for no reason, her alarm went off this morning. And it was a song. Like out of nowhere, like, I don't know, it just really hit me because I've been struggling. I talked, I talked about sometimes we all struggle with our mental health and the crazy things that are going on right now in our country or in the world. It's so divisive. There's so much infighting. It's hard not to get really upset about what's happening. So, so I think before I introduce you, which by the way, Kate, I love to leave mystery and wait to introduce people till after I give a giant spiel and people probably already turn off the podcast. I just think like get outside, do things that help like art, like we're going to talk about art therapy, do something for yourself today besides sitting in your car, listening to the news or watching the news, get outside, talk to a friend, get face to face, put down your phone. I have to remind myself of this because I tend to spiral and it's really not good. And I think the last thing I'll say to this before I introduce you is look out for the signs. Because I think a lot of us right now that have lost people, our loved ones are probably knowing how much stress that our nervous systems and our bodies and our heads are feeling. And I think that there's signs all around us. So whether your sign is music or whether your sign is an animal or hummingbird, a monarch butterfly, all the things, a feather, a penny, any, all so many of them look out for them right now, because I like to say this all the time. Those people are just in the next room. We can't see them. we are dealing with their the grief and loss of losing them but they are with us so with that i'm going to introduce kate king my lovely guest today hi kate kate is a counselor a board certified art therapist she is the author of three books not impressive at all the radiant life project and the authentic mother and your new book which congratulations was just released this week is called Mend or Move On. Welcome, Kate. Thank you so much. I love being here and I love hearing you talk about signs. I was on a walk this morning with a friend and I saw two huge hawks in this tree near my house. And I love, I really like big birds. Sometimes we have a big owl that I see around our neighborhood or on our house. And these two hawks this morning just sort of stopped me in my path. And I was feeling kind of an agitated energy myself today. And I just felt like, gosh, there's, there is something, there is something bigger. Nature is this incredible mirror and I'm being shown these hawks. They're here with me. Like it's like, it's all going to be okay. Cause they're powerful, right? They're powerful, but they're also graceful in flight and they were together, which is like connection. So I was also in a place of signs this morning. So I love to hear you say that. I think it's important. And I love the hawk, too. It's such a the hawk is such a symbolic and beautiful bird. And the two together has got to mean something. I think a lot of us are really struggling right now. It's a hard it's a difficult time, I think, in history or in the world or our country to be alive. And I think we we have to like be outside. We have to do stuff. We have to, I think, sorry, I love to go on my soapbox, but find compassion for others right now and find space. And even if you don't agree with somebody, you know, find compassion, because I think what's happening is the divisiveness and all the things that are going on. They want this. And and we just we have to be kind to each other. And if you do go on social media, do what I do. I watch a lot of those videos that are like the homeless man getting a thousand dollars. And you get those like my whole algorithm right now is like homeless man, like getting a shirt or a pair of shoes. And then like somebody is like, oh, and by the way, here's a thousand dollars. Let me check you out at the grocery store. And then I just start sobbing, crying. Do you get those, Kate? I do get those. And I also follow an account called reasons to be cheerful. And it's like, it's the news that doesn't make the news. It's kind of like how ships have a new navigation system that keeps them from running over whales in the ocean, but you don't hear about it because the media is so flooded with all of this drama. It's like all of these other amazing things going on that can really help lift your spirits. If only you could just clear space. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I love that your algorithm is dialed into showing my algorithms that and it's also like rescue dogs because I I'm obsessed with animals and otters like we like animals right now, because I think that we need to just I personally just want to watch that stuff right now. So with that said, I want to find out about you and get off my soapbox. So, Kate, tell my listeners a little bit about you. Where are you from? I am from Colorado. I live outside of Denver. Um, I have a counseling practice here in Denver. I've been a licensed therapist for almost 20 years. I'm an art therapist as well. So I weave creativity into the work I do. Um, and I am an author. I love to, I love to write about kind of the intersection of my clinical experience and my personal experience and the research and the science. And it's all just like this big, beautiful hodgepodge that I think makes, makes things helpful. Hopefully, like if I could just be supportive during this difficult time, that is all I want. Yeah, I think I also always ask because I do so many episodes with psychiatrists and psychologists and therapists that most 90 percent of the time people go into this field because they want to help and give back to others because they maybe have gone through hard things in their own lives. is is is that a reason why you went into this field without you don't have to share if you don't want but I always try to get down to why people go into the fields that they do. Totally. Oh, I think so. I think it's it's so common for therapists. And for me, absolutely. I've done so much personal healing. I had a really traumatic life in my family of origin. and I have just done decades of my own personal work around it and gained a lot of insight. And in this new book, Mend or Move On, I talk a little about my experience of family estrangement and how in my family, it's actually multi-generational and it's become a pattern. And it just, I felt really called with this book to talk about my experience. And I also have repair with family members who I was estranged from before. And I have other family members who I was not able to repair with. And I don't know. I don't think if I ever will be, I would be shocked if some of these people end up becoming healthy enough to repair with. But I do leave space for that if it's a possibility. But the rule that I always hold for myself is I don't write about things or make content about my inner work that hasn't reached a level of healing that I can talk about it without projecting and getting triggered and kind of feeling messy. So everything I write about and talk about is stuff that I've done a great deal of work. And I have a lot of insight around. That's kind of my my litmus test for myself. I think I mean, I know you've written the three books, and I kind of want to touch on those. But I think that that's a really brave thing to do. And also not common, because I think a lot of authors, maybe don't they they haven't fully healed. This is just my opinion. And they because in life, it's really hard to fully heal. And, and I'm writing my own book, which PS is probably going to come out in like, 2000, like 35, because I'm so slow at writing it. But I can't I'm not fully healed over the things I'm writing about. And so I find that really great that you, you kind of put yourself in a place that you're like, okay, I'm not ready to write about that. But here's what I know. And here's this piece of me that's healed. It's it's really admirable. Thanks. And you know, not to say that you don't have valuable insights when you're in it, because I think when you're working through your layers, and you're right in it, and you're very close to it, there's wisdom there. And there are gems there And then if you can give it a little bit of space and revisit it after you done healing work around it then you have those gems and that wisdom of sort of the hindsight perspective of the healing And all of that together can create a really beautiful offering But sometimes if we write something when we're right in the middle of it and we put it out too quickly, we don't have the perspective of how it really unfolds in our nervous system and the layers of healing that we can put around it and how that attends to the wound in a new way and gives us a different vantage point on what we went through. And so I don't know that there's ever a place of like completely healed. I'm not sure that I really believe that. I don't believe in gurus. Like I'm not about, you know, enlightened people following these people online. Like if someone calls himself a guru, I think we should run. Like my therapist based on like the fact that she does her own personal work too. Like, so I think that it's not about being healed. it's about just continuing to move through the layers and investigate and be open to what they have to share and to show and reveal you and really trusting your nervous system that you'll only see what your nervous system is ready to reveal to you. And so if you're not aware of something, if you don't have full understanding, it's because it's not unlocked yet for a very good reason, because our nervous system is so adaptive, it's protective, and it knows what we need to stay safe. So it's really an exercise of self trust to move through the layers of healing at the pace that it takes. And sometimes you have to revisit the same stuff over and over. And other times you do a big layer, you clear a lot all at once. And that's all the wisdom of our body and our nervous system. I love what you're saying. I'm super into it. And I think it's true. Do you do like I know that you do art therapy, you incorporate that but do you do like EMDR, like that kind of stuff as well? Are you just more strictly, I'm just, this is out of my own curiosity. I don't do EMDR, but I do internal family systems therapy. If you're familiar with parts work, I really love parts work. I've done a lot of parts work for my personal work, as well as my work with clients. And I find it to be so rich because first of all, it's not pathologizing. It doesn't tell you something's wrong with you, but it's really validating that we all have these different aspects of ourselves and we might have a wounded part, but that doesn't mean that we are wounded as a whole, right? And there is this concept of self, which is like the true essence of you that has capacity for connection and curiosity and compassion and creativity and all of these really higher vibrational qualities. But when we're flooded by different parts of us that might be stuck in the past or in different wounded experiences, it's like they eclipse our true self. And so we lose contact with some of those qualities and parts work is all about integrating our wounds and helping to unburden these parts from what they carry so that we can come back into connection and balance with our true self and so i use that a lot with clients i actually created a integrative directive that i call parts cards with art therapy where we actually create visual representations of these parts and it involves collage and writing and processing so that you can say like, oh, okay, so I have this traumatized part. Let's get to know it. Is there a message there? Or does she have a story? Or is she a certain color or shape? Where does she live in the body? And then we investigate it that way. Oh, my God. I love that. I have never heard that before, actually. I'm fascinated. Tell me. Okay. So we're going to shift into the book. So I understand. And so you're talking about family dynamics in the book, Mend or Move On. There's a lot of families and people that find themselves. I personally have dealt with this in my own life. So I relate to this and I can't wait to read the book where you find yourself having to separate from a family member, whether it be a parent, a sibling, a friend, like a close friend. So tell me about why you decided to write this book. I mean, I know you touched on in the beginning your own personal experience, but I would love to know that. Yeah. So I wrote my previous book, The Radiant Life Project during the COVID pandemic. It was like my masterclass of self-healing, like everything I know as a therapist. Here you go. Do it from your living room, like at your own pace. And then I was like, I need a relationship chapter in here. And then my editor was like, you have too many words. Don't add any more. And so it was actually really fortuitous because the relationship chapter needed to be a whole book, really, which is what Mend or Move On is. And the subtitle is that it's a guide to healing or leaving toxic relationships. So it includes family. It includes friendships. It includes toxic bosses and colleagues in the workplace. It includes marital and romantic relationships. Like really this work is about any relationship that harms you, is cruel to you, causes dysfunction in you, makes you feel like you can't be your authentic self. And I call it mend or move on so that people don't feel like there's no choices because there is. And if you choose the path to mend a relationship, it's going to take intention and curiosity and openness. You might have to rethink your beliefs and your values. You might have to get really honest and vulnerable. and you might have to see if the other person's really in line for that, if they're willing to do that with you or not. And if you can't heal something, it's really important that you know you can move on from it, even if it's your mother, even if it's your husband, even if it's your best friend of 40 years, you're not stuck in any relationship. And so I really want to empower people with this book to think about what's healthiest for them on an internal level and really take back that authority over their mental health and the way that relationships can either like tank your mental health or they can float it and they can support and nourish you. Really, that's what relationships are here for. We're supposed to be loving and caring for each other. And so if we're not feeling that, then why? Why would we do this? My question to you is, I feel like we're like, we're, we are, it's so frowned upon, especially in the family dynamic. Okay. So I think I was just talking to somebody on a podcast about this recently, but when you go home, like to your family, you always fall into the place. I was a middle child. I was always like the different one because my sisters and my brother were like athletes and I was kind of the crybaby and I got, you know, in trouble and I was just different. I was always the different one in the family. And I feel like when I go back to my family, I always feel that. And it's painful for me. I can't, I, because I had a very hard childhood. There's great things about my family. I mean, we've worked through, we haven't worked through all of it, but like, you know, I think my mom would be okay. If I said this, my mom and I have had, um, a difficult relationship. We're good. Now we've met in a place where I, we are where we are. And I love my mom so much, but we've had our ups and downs. And there's been times where I haven't talked to her because of things that have happened in my childhood that I'm angry about. But I think, I, I think I love what you're saying that you can, it's okay to walk away. You know, it's okay to say, I'm not going to take this anymore. And when I found myself at a recent family event, because I have a large family, there was like somebody that I didn't want to hang out with, because I just, I don't want to be around that person. And I love that you're saying it's okay to not feel like you have to enforce it and be fake and be phony. And fit like fit yourself into that little piece. Does that make sense? I'm kind of really totally makes sense. I mean, what you're speaking to is these cultural undercurrents of what sort of the ideal of family we would all really like it to be, which is that it's your safe haven of people who unconditionally love you and are always there for you and are good to you and fill you up. And in reality, that's not many people's experience. And if you do have a family like that, it's it's such a beautiful thing to treasure and to really cherish because of how rare it actually is. And where we are right now in our society is we're in a place where we're talking about hard things. And it's right on the tip of so many people's tongue if they're like, if I'm going to talk about hard things, then I'm going to talk about my family. Because your family is where you get your blueprint for what relationships are, what love means, how you get to be held and seen and supported by other people. That's what you're taught first and foremost from your parents and your siblings and your closest relatives. And so if you're taught something like what you were taught, like your middle child, your crybaby, you're not as good as your other siblings, that sticks with you. That becomes part of your vision of yourself and you build your identity based on that. Those are sort of your foundational building blocks. And then in adulthood, when you start to do your personal work and reflect, and maybe you have some really deep conversations with friends or with a therapist, you're like, where did this come from? How long have I been carrying this stuff? And then you decide, I don't want to operate on that narrative anymore. I don't want to buy into a system that makes me feel this way. And I don't want to build my identity based on something that doesn't feel really true or authentic or supportive of my light and my gifts. And so I do think there's a lot more conversation about it these days, because on some level with the lack of safety, there's also a certain safety that has developed around speaking out and being honest and using your voice. And now I'm rambling. No, you're not rambling at all. My other thing I was going to say to you is I found that aging for me personally is I joke all the time. I mean, I don't joke. I hate aging. I hate like getting older and changing physically and the things that happen. But what I really love about aging is that I'm learning to kind of separate myself from things that don't serve me, which is right up the alley of this book. I have had a very long friendship in my life that I recently had to end because I found that the we taught we touched on this the length of time. It was not serving me like and I think because I went through this really I talk about the listeners now through a really horrible friend breakup and I was in this mom group and they were awful and whatever. I'm really selective about who I surround myself with now. And I found that I kept trying and trying to fix or like mend or say the right thing or find things in common. And I just couldn't anymore. And it didn't end like in a bad way where I was like, I hate you. It was just like, we don't agree. This isn't going to work for me anymore. And I've been hurt or you've been hurt or whatever it is, and I choose right now, because you said in the beginning that maybe it would change at some point but right now I cannot have this person in my life And you saying that that okay I am saying that that more than okay It crucial It important. Because as long as you stay in a friendship or any kind of relationship that is not really aligned for you, you're not having the freedom and space to find the people who are aligned for you. And it's not feeling good for you. It's probably not a match for the other person either. And so you're both kind of tied up and tangled in this dynamic that's draining your energy and taking up your time and keeping you from your actual people. And so if we can see something like this, not as a sign of I'm good and you're bad or you're bad and I'm good, it's not a value judgment of rightness or wrongness. It's about alignment. And so if you free someone who's misaligned, then you send both of you out into the world to find the alignment that you seek. starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles designer marketer logistics manager all while bringing your vision to life shopify helps millions of business sell online build fast with templates and ai descriptions and photos inventory and shipping sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl that's shopify.nl it's time to see what you can accomplish with shopify by your side Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles designer marketer logistics manager all while bringing your vision to life shopify helps millions of business sell online build fast with templates and ai descriptions and photos inventory and shipping sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl that's shopify.nl it's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. I mean, I don't mean to get political because I don't want to put you on the spot, but I think that this would be a perfect topic for kind of what we're talking about. Because in that friendship, we were not aligned because of, you know, there's so much divisiveness and one side thinks one thing and one side thinks another. And that was like kind of part of why I had to step away. Do you find that that's OK? Like if you have clients that are seeing you or how would you kind of talk to people about the current climate to separate themselves from whether it be family or friends or just not talk about it? Because I just I think there's a lot of people right now struggling with the pain of maybe being like, I can't, I don't want to talk to this person. I still have love for them in my heart, but we are so different in the way that we believe, you know? I think it's all okay. I think whatever you need to do for your own emotional safety and balance and regulation is okay. I think the way that we go about it is important because we can have hard conversations with people that allows for dignity and respect for everyone involved, but that also sets a new precedent for what the dynamic can contain and tolerate. So if you do want to stay in contact with someone, but you don't want it to involve certain conversation topics, it's okay to say that. It's okay to say, look, I think, you know, that we're misaligned on this topic and I have a lot of love for you in my heart and I don't want to stop being in your life, but I do want to stop having these conversations with you because I don't think it's productive for either of us. So let's just make this off topic. And if we do dip into this topic, I'm going to redirect it and I'm going to let you know that I'm not good here. And that's my boundary. And that's okay, because there's a misunderstanding that relationships that have boundaries are sort of like bad relationships. But I think the opposite is true. Actually, I think the best relationships are the ones with boundaries, because then you know where each other's edges are and you know what to respect within one another. And so if you set a boundary with someone and maybe that person, they're not listening, they don't really care about your boundary, they're gonna keep talking about this topic, then you might have to have a little bit of pulling back. And there might be a second conversation where you say, look, we talked about this. I asked you not to bring up these topics. You continue to bring up these topics. And so even with the love that I feel for you, I need to take a little space from this relationship right now. And that's okay. Yeah. Do you think in general, like, say, like husband, wife, or whatever, like couples, you're saying it's okay to set boundaries? What does that look like, like in a relationship? So if you're married, I'm just going to use myself. My head, well, I'm just going to make a joke, but he really does snore all the time. And I was going to joke that my boundary is can you go into another room? But what is it all kidding aside? What is a good? What is like a good boundary in a couple, for example. So first of all, it's really important to create a distinction between boundaries and requests. So what you just said about your husband is a request, not a boundary. Sorry, Ron. I'm just kidding. You don't snore. Go on. So requests are asks we make of other people. It requires something of them, right? Like go into the other room if you're going to snore or, you know, please don't talk to me about this political conversation. That's a request and it involves their participation. A boundary asks nothing of the other person. It expresses what you will do when your edges are pressed. So in your situation, it might be like, you know what, honey, when you're snoring, I'm gonna change rooms, right? That's your boundaries. What I'm gonna do to take care of myself. Or like if you're at this friendship table and the political conversation comes up, I'm gonna go home, you know? If you call me and you yell at me, I'm going to hang up. That's a boundary. And so it's important that you have the distinction because one of them asks something and puts the onus on others and the other one asks nothing of them. It just communicates what you will do. So when it comes to setting these boundaries, it's important that it's just simple and that it's clear and that it's authentic to your needs and to your capacity. So if it's related to topics that you do not want to talk about with certain people, the boundary could just be as simple as, you know what, when we talk about politics, it doesn't seem to go well. So if it comes up, I'm going to go home or I'm going to change the topic, or I'm going to say our buzzword, which is banana. And that means we talk about something different. Yeah. When, when you say in the title, mend or move on. So is that saying, cause you talked a little bit about, you, you know, you probably won't have certain relationships again in your life, but you may. So is it always kind of leaving the door open to the something might change? Because the way that I think about it is if it was a family member, and I have had space from like, let's say my mom, which I'm not, I'm just using her as an example. And I didn't talk to her for a year or something. And then I missed her on like holidays, or I had memory, I started thinking about a memory or something we did together. And then you've ended up kind of like opening that door again, mentally, how do you get to a place where you know, you need to kind of move on, but you, you have to permanently do it to protect yourself, but then you're still holding on. Like, do you understand what I'm saying in kind of a roundabout way? Yeah. So what you're sort of the, it's this vacillation with this sort of low contact energy of like pushing them away, but not wanting to be disconnected and trying to find peace, but not really able to find it. And then you get to a place where you're like, this isn't going to work. Like there's probably no timeline in the multiverse where this works. And if you have that level of clarity, if you can have a conversation with them, I think it's respectful to say, look, I'm trying my best. This isn't going anywhere. I need, I need to end this relationship. I don't want you to contact me anymore. I'm not going to contact you anymore. I wish you the best. But not all relationships have the safety for that. I know for me, with my relationships and my family, I had to actually just sort of ghost, which is not my MO. I don't like doing that. I never do that. But I knew in my cells that if I had a conversation and was like, I don't, I can't do this anymore. the retaliation, the manipulation, the aggression would have been so severe that it just would have kept me in the bind. And so the best way that I could protect myself, my kids, my husband was just to stop responding and to close the door from my end. And I'll tell you, it really didn't go well. It created an onslaught of hate mail that came into my mailbox. There were really vicious, really aggressive phone call voicemails. Like there was rumors that were passed. I mean, it was, it was like the fight of my life. And in some ways it still is. It's been three years. And to be honest, like I can't even say who this person in my family is publicly because I'm afraid that they'll have like legal action. If I mentioned them by name, you know, like it's really vicious and dangerous to be in contact with this person. And so it still hasn't stopped three years later. Um, and the person who I did reconnect with in the family, I feel badly for them because they have sort of one foot in each world. They're connected now to both of us. And my only boundary for them is if you connect me back to these other dangerous people in any way, shape or form, I will close the door on you too. That's it. Like you can't be a bridge between me and them. If you can keep me and my kids and my husband separate from them, then we're going to do just fine. And we'll continue to work on this. And it's by far from perfect. It's by no means perfect, but it's workable. Whereas the other relationships at this point are vicious. And I mean, generally, like genuinely wish harm upon me and my family. So yeah, I mean, it's I mean, in your case, it's the nostalgia piece doesn't sound like it's there. Well, it's not there for me, because it has been decades of such abuse that I, I don't remember goodness like the there's no sweetness left. There's no memory. There's no nostalgia. It's really become about safety and protection. I mean, this person put my children outside of their house barefoot in the snow as a way to punish them and locked the door and didn't let them back in. They were terrified. They were three and five years old at the time. Like it started to become dangerous. And I heard about this when they came back to my house like two days later and they were crying and they're like, he put me outside in the snow and we didn't have a jacket. We didn't have shoes and no, we, the doors were locked. I mean, like stuff like that. Yeah Like the mama bear like in you is like I I can do this anymore And I and I think that that okay But I think like for listeners in general or people in general it this is such a weird like back and forth in relationships where you find yourself. And I know this, personally, that you have to end something for whether it be like your own mental health, or like you in your situation, your kids or abuse, whatever it is. But what is like one of the best tips that some that you can give me or my listeners that you can take out of your book on actually ending it or separating yourself from it? I think the most important thing is to have the support that helps with your intention to protect yourself and your family. And so maybe starting out with a therapist or figuring out who your healthy people are and asking them if they can be there for you, if they can remind you of why you're pulling away from this person, just to fortify the strength it takes to really move away from someone who you probably have like, you know, interconnectedness with to the depths of your soul. Otherwise, it wouldn't be that hard to disconnect from them. Right. So being supported and resourced is incredibly important. And then I think coming to that question of can I actually tell this person that I'm cutting off? I've had friendships before that I've had hard conversations with and just been like, I cannot do this. I cannot be in this friendship anymore versus these family relationships where I ghosted. And so like really asking yourself, what's the safest option for you to get out? And if it's somebody who's in a marital situation, there could be financial implications. So making sure that you really think this through and protect yourself, Make sure that you have the means you need to take care of yourself after you cut contact, making sure that legally you're within your rights. If there's custody with kids involved, there might be aspects like if it's a friendship, there might be other friends in the friend group who are affected by this. So really thinking things through and kind of working through all of the pieces so that you can be as prepared as possible so that nothing holds you back and you don't yo-yo. because it's very painful when you cut contact with someone and you kind of operate on that level for a few weeks or months and then you collapse back into that relationship. That can be really difficult and painful for everyone and it's jarring for your nervous system. So I would say if you're going to move on, let it be a final decision and stick with it and make sure you have the resources to really support you on that trajectory. Okay. I mean, in a marriage, for example, or if there's abuse involved, I have had numerous experts come on and say always that say always have a plan and don't tell them that you're coming. That's what they always say. Like if, if you're, if a woman's married and an abusive situation, like don't let them know that you're going to be leaving. Correct. Yep. Don't let them know. And if, you know, if it's possible to keep other things from them, like if you're moving, make sure they don't get your new address, you know, go on to socials and block them, block everyone who could be connected to them. Try to really shield them from your life so that they can't access you. Because if it's easy for them to access you, you know, like clearly the people I cut contact with know where I live, but an onslaught of mail came to my mailbox when I didn't pick up my phone, you know? So it's like, I wish they didn't have my address. My question is, did you read the letters? I read them at first out of curiosity and then I stopped reading them and then my husband would read them mostly because he wanted to know if there was a risk or like a threat in there. Yeah. And then it came to the point where it just there were threats. There were allegations. It was violent. It was accusatory. And he was like, this is literally just the same thing over and over. I don't need to keep seeing this. So we created a file where we documented things. And for, you know, a while we documented, took photos of stuff. And then we just from then on stopped. So if for whatever reason there is a legal action taken, we do have documentation to protect us to an extent. But at some point it's like, I can't be reading this and he can't be reading this because it puts fear into our nervous systems and it messes with this piece that we're trying to protect for our family um so luckily at this point the letters have stopped um i still hear really awful things through the mutual connections that we have and uh sometimes i do set boundaries around that with people i just say look i don't want to hear about this feel free to you know not tell me if you hear or something like that, unless it's a risk to my safety. But even then, I don't even know if I need to know about that. And that's been helpful. But sometimes, you know, the best thing that you can do is to just shield yourself and then go on with your life. Yeah. Do you ever think, like, sometimes I think this, because I love that you brought that point up. And I'm just going to say I had that friend breakup. And sometimes I've let people into my life. I have not set boundaries. And they'll tell me, oh, so-and-so said this about you. And it's like, these are people that hurt me so much. I don't want to know what they're saying. And I did have to make that boundary or cut friendships or not talk to the people. Because I'm like, if you were really my friend, why are you telling me this? Knowing how painful that was for me, I don't want to know what that person said about me. And so it's kind of like you also have to be like, do I want to have a relationship with a person that knowingly is sharing information that could potentially hurt me? So pieces around that. The first piece is if that person has sort of a gossipy energy and if they're gossiping to you about the other people, they're probably also gossiping about you. Yep. Well, really just knowing that like a gossip will be a gossip. And now you are probably part of that is one piece. Another piece, if they're not really a gossip, but it feels like they're they're telling you stuff maybe to try to help or like they're not really sure why. You could just ask for clarification. You can say, I'm really curious. What's your intention with these things? You know, they could say, I'm just trying to protect you because I want you to know what's being said. or they could say, I don't even know why I'm sharing this with you. I'm just regurgitating. I think I'm being unconscious about sharing this. And then that could be actually fostering deeper intimacy with that person where you get to say, like, I love you for looking out for me, but this isn't helpful. Let's talk about other things versus the gossipy person where you're like, oh, I'm no longer safe in this relationship because now I'm a dopamine hit for them. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So my last question for you is, if I were going to go to where, tell me where you can get the book. Everywhere and anywhere. You can also get it from my website, the radiant life project.com. Okay. So you go to a Barnes and Noble shout out, or I'm going to give like an independent bookstore. I'm going to give the one in my town. It's called pages, which I love. and you have the you have all different kinds of books that you can read, right? Why would you want to pull your book? I mean, you've written three, but this particular book off of the shelf to purchase it and bring it home and read it. Well, first things first, the cover is hot pink and neon green. Yes, I do like that. Well, you sold me on that because I love a hot pink. Yeah, I do like a vibrant book color. I think this book is going to scream out to you if you're in this place of should I stay or should I go? And you've been deliberating on it and trying to make a thoughtful decision for yourself and for others involved and trying to prevent any feelings of regret you might have, but also trying to protect yourself and take care of yourself and love yourself. This could be the book that just helps you inform yourself about the research and the data and the experience, the clinical case studies, my story, my experience as a therapist, it's a really rich, supportive, basically, it's like a safety net that's going to help you decide which path is right for you. And then it will support you on either path that you choose. I think too, like just talking to you, it seems like it takes out some of that shame component. it. Oh, totally. Right. And it really returns to like, it's just about living the healthiest life that you can possibly live and surrounding yourself with people who are in your highest good. It doesn't, it's not about rightness or wrongness. It's just about health and safety. Okay. Well, I can't wait to read it. I love talking to you today. I think you're so wonderful. You also remind me of that actress on, um, how fitting the handmaid's tale, but in a good way, Do people tell you that? Yeah. Sometimes people say Peggy from Mad Men. And sometimes people say The Handmaid's Tale. Well, you're similar looking and your voice sounds similar too. So it's a compliment. Well, thank you. Well, I'm so grateful to have met you. I can't wait to read the book. And everyone, do me a favor. If you're so inclined, leave me a quick review. If you're listening on Apple, you're watching on YouTube or Spotify, wherever you're listening, please just take two seconds. If it's not going to be a good review, don't leave it. But if it's going to be a good review, I don't even care. It takes two seconds and I would really appreciate it. I'm not good enough at asking and I've been doing this five years and I always forget to ask. So please just do me that quick favor. And I'm just so grateful that I'm healthy. I woke up this morning and I said, I'm trying to really put gratitude into the world because I talked about struggling with my mental health and all the things that are going on. So I woke up this morning. I said, thank you for letting me go on this walk. And it's sunny outside and I live at the beach. Thank you for giving me legs that have the ability to walk. Thank you for my children. Thank you. Just try to do things like that. And I feel like when you do that. I mean, at least in my case, it's helped me a little bit through this kind of hard time in my own life. Kate, do you have anything to add there? I'll ask you since you're the therapist. Yeah, I think gravitate towards things that fill you up. For me, it's always just grab a couple pieces of art materials and just doodle for a second. Or I really like listening to punk rock, play it loud, sing along, use nature as a tool for regulating. That's what it's there for. We are part of it. Dance, shake your body. I think just coming back into our body and not living exclusively in our heads is kind of the magic coming into a more integrated, you know, put your hand on your heart and just take three deep breaths and you will feel differently afterwards. Yeah. I love that. And I need to start breathing more. So thank you for the reminder. Everyone keep going. You matter. Your story matters. Thanks, Kate. okay wait i need to make sure it loads was that okay did i leave anything judging megan with megan judge