S08.29: Jen & Sarah Answer Your Burning Questions

We don't even have to count, Sarah. We don't because we are together at last. Yes. Once again, reporting in from Sarah's couch in Brooklyn, which is where we do most of our ask me anything. Yeah, right. Because we're together for whatever reason. Now, the reason we're together today, this is many weeks ago that we are recording, but I was traveling and then Sarah was traveling and... Then there was a snowstorm. There was a snowstorm. It's supposed to be together. Then it was Easter or it's going to be Easter. And so we're recording this episode on, I think it's airing April 8th, many in the past because otherwise... That's weird. We're very busy and important. Yes. We're not really. I just am headed to England to see my aunt. Oh, that's nice. I know. Well, I haven't seen her since before the pandemic. I haven't actually been to England since before the pandemic. So that's right. You were supposed to go. Actually, you're going to be like, of course. This is a very Sarah story. Yeah. Kate Claiborne is actually going to be like, of course. This is a very Sarah story. So I was supposed to go to England in April of 2020. Yeah, what happened 2020? And I made plans with Louisa Darling and we were going to go together. And because we were both turning 40 and we were like, all right, we're going to do this thing. And we made this big plan. And then in March of 2020, everything just collapsed. Around us. And so we said, OK, no problem. We're going to cancel our trip. We'll go in May. We'll go in June. And I went for some reason to look for my passport for some reason. And my passport had expired. So I wouldn't have been able to go to London anyway. That's insane. Because the day I pulled it out of the safe, I would have been like, oh, shit, my passport has expired. Wow. And that would have been sad because Louisa would have been stuck in London. But I mean, not sad for Louisa. Sad for Louisa. Sad if you're planning a trip with a person who isn't there. I mean, you know. Anyway, my passport is now renewed. And I'm heading to England to see my aunt, who is an aging English woman. And yeah, that's nice. I'm taking my daughter to see her. And yeah. Has she ever been to England before? Yes, she has. But she was little. She was so little. We went, we actually went the summer of 2019. Oh, I think I do remember that. Right, before everything went chaos. And then. So yeah. So but now she's a pro because she came to Australia with me in New Zealand. And now she just thinks that this is what people do. Well, you just take international trips all the time. Some people do do that. Which apparently is true for her. So. But speaking of older women, I have something I'd like to bring to the class. So I had on my shelf in my office a copy of Catherine Falk. Everybody, I think that Catherine, we've talked about Catherine Falk on the podcast. Yeah. For at least a little bit. She was the owner and publisher of Romantic Times magazine. Jen's favorite magazine. It's like the New Yorker and Romantic Times together. Yeah. I actually have like 20 years of 25 years of it. And I haven't really done much with it, but maybe I'll have a reason to soon. But you know, maybe I need to put them in order and start scanning essentially. Because I'm like, what am I supposed to do with all this stuff? This is crazy. So we're not indexed everyone. It's just. You bought it from eBay, right? I bought it from a woman on eBay who basically was like, I have all these. And I, you know, I mean, like clearly this is someone who was like really taking good care of them. And then I realized, like, you know what I mean? Like in order for them to be useful, you have to sort of index them. And I just have never done that. So, you know, maybe a summer project for me. I mean, the Romantic Times was this remarkable thing though. It seems wild that somebody loved romance enough. Yes. And that they would invest so much of their time, energy and frankly money into building a magazine that was essentially a romance review. And I guess the closest thing I would compare it to is something like Rolling Stone, because there were like little articles at the front. I mean, it was never, it was never Rolling Stone the way Rolling Stone was. Like where the articles were like remarkable, like, you know, unpacking the politics of the United States. And then here's a review of the latest police album. Right. But, you know, it was, there were, there was always somebody on the cover, although I assume that was an ad, like, probably paid for that space. And then there were like interviews inside or like little stories about romance-y stuff inside. And then, but probably two thirds or even three quarters of that magazine was. Just interviews. Straight up reviews. And it was like star, a star system and they had professional reviewers. I remember Kathy Robin was the historical reviewer and she reviewed, if you got a five star review from Kathy Robin, actually there were no five stars. It was the highest was four and a half stars. And maybe you could get a five, but I remember there was like four and a half. And then there was like four and a half gold. And that was the, it was like, it was like my immigrant father was in charge of rating. Listen, nothing's really good enough. Like it's never perfect. Yes, right. Now you can be a doctor too. Exactly. So anyway, Catherine was always everywhere too. And I don't mean to speak of her in the past. I think, I believe she is still alive. And, but she was always everywhere. Anytime there was a romance, anything. And then there was the RT conference, which was wild times, which was both for, so where RWA was for romance authors kind of exclusively. RT was really for readers and they, you know, readers would come and they could meet authors and there was the Mr. Romance Conference or a contest. So Catherine knew everybody and it's sort of like, legendarily, if you were new to the genre, you might get like a text, like a message from her, an email or at the time on, you know, when, when I started, I was on Facebook and she messaged me on Facebook and was like, please send your phone number. I'd like to call you. And you just sort of felt like, oh no, that's gonna happen now. Right. And then this like lady would call you and she would sort of tell you her lore. Yeah. And you felt very much like you had been, you had been blessed by this woman who had a ton of both power and influence and also real love for the genre. Anyway, at some point in the world, Catherine wrote a book and maybe she wrote more than one, but it's, she's written a couple books about how to write a romance that I have one of. What else? There's like, there's, I, I, I, everybody, I have a small collection of books. I collect books where people talk about how to write romance. It was unfastened by them. So this is copyright 1982 and it's called Love's Leading Ladies. So to sort of paint you a picture, this is 10 years into the modern romance novel. Right. And it is significant. It is, you know, there is, I don't even know, now I'm sort of distracted by it, but it's, you know, 300 or so pages and every, and it's maybe, I don't know, 100, probably less, like 85 famous romance novelists. And each romance novelist has like a little biographical text written by Catherine and as part of it, they are asked a number of things. They're astrological sign. Listen, it's like the hub that happily ever after society book, but you know, a lot for you where, and then like, you know, how they got into it, how, how they think about their books and then every person is asked to give a recipe, their favorite recipe. And I think this is a sort of, yeah, this is really interesting. It's a real like, how do you do it all and keep the house kind of. Completely right. Like the question. Right, right. So I just want to share Jen, a few of the gems from this book, because I think, you know, since we're together and we're doing an AMA, this is the kind of episode where this would be well received. Yes. So I have to say the first one that I have is Jude Devereux, who we all know we love Jude Devereux here at Thaided Mates. And she talks about writing romance and she did not, we've had Jude Devereux on the podcast. Yes. And now I sort of wish like we'd read this first. Because I would have like, Like you have had. Faroa. Say it here. But so she talks about writing The Enchanted Land, her first romance novel. And she says, I wrote The Enchanted Land because I couldn't find a book that I wanted to read. I wanted a heroine with a mind of her own and one who had decided a purpose in life other than being raped. And then she says, personally, I wouldn't want a kidnapper and rapist in my house. I'm the old fashioned type. I mean, if that's the old fashioned type, then me too. And I was like, what's happening here, Jude Devereux? So, you know, Jude, if you listen to our conversation with her, she's a real straight shooter. Yeah. So this actually doesn't super surprise me, but she is a Virgo. And, you know, and that's, and her recipe that is included in this book. And everybody I did tell Jen that like, now I think I want to do like a little like, She's going to make these recipes. I've always been like, oh, I don't do videos. Like I'm not interested in doing videos, but like, part of me wants to make every single recipe in this book. Her recipe is for sausage cake, which sounds disgusting, but maybe Eric would like to eat it. Then I want to talk about Fern Michaels. Yeah, this is wild. Yeah. We didn't know Jen and I didn't know Fern Michaels started out as two people. Yeah. And then what did you discover? Well, so then I went to Wikipedia and was like, what happened there? And Mary cut skit and Roberta Anderson. Yeah. So Mary and Roberta wrote together as Fern Michaels named after, according to this, a plastic Fern in one of their offices. It was a wild time, everybody, I don't know what to say. As I said to Jen, it's actually incredibly difficult to kill a Fern. So I don't know why it was plastic. And so then according to Wikipedia, in 1989, Mary took over. And Roberta just wrote as Fern Michaels on her own then for, I mean, she died recently. So she is like, this is, we're talking then for however many decades, just like the one of them wrote as Fern Michaels. Okay. So let me tell you the story of Mary and Roberta's first book. First, we had to get rid of our sexual inhibitions. We were two women who couldn't write the word thigh or breast without being horrified. I'm glad we decided to write. I didn't get chicken. That'd be funny if that was our recipe. Sorry. Sorry, everyone. Okay. I'm not sorry. I'm glad we decided to write a real pornographic type book the first time out. Oh my goodness. We needed to learn to free ourselves. And the first book, which has never actually been published, did the trick. We called it The Liberated Stud. Actually, although it's graphic, it's quite pretty in its sexual passages. The story is about five housewives of very backgrounds who are sexually frustrated. They place an advertisement in a local newspaper for a playboy and they get an answer. Naturally, he's the liberated stud. Let those actually sound very before it's time. I would read this book. I would read the hell out of it. Although I've got to imagine like they call the pornography and it's probably like two sentences. Listen to this. No, he's the world's greatest and sexiest and tenderest lover. He liberates all five housewives. Sure, of course. And we use this book as a guide to future love scenes in all our other books. Will The Liberated Stud ever be published? Only at a price we couldn't refuse. So a challenge accepted publishing. Somebody go to, where'd Fern leave her papers? I know. Right? My goodness. And then I just want to share and then we'll be done with this, but I want to talk about Rosemary Rogers. Oh yeah. Who, I mean. Sure. Rosemary Rogers, notoriously everybody, when she got real famous and was making a ton of money on her books, which were making a ton of money, she bought an apartment in New York City and she basically started going to Studio 54 every night. Like, good for her. She was just like, this is the life I have been aiming for. Okay. So she says, so she, everybody's been asked for their recipes. I didn't even tell you what Fern Michaels is. Oh, Fern Michaels's recipes fried crab, everybody. So Rosemary's asked for her recipes. Please remember this lady goes to Studio 54 every night. Brown rice is one of Rosemary's favorite dishes. She swears by its nutritional benefits. For? She is frequently seen dining with a handsome escort. It maxims or regimes in Paris where she indulges in a dinner fit for one of her heroines. No recipes available for all that. Wait, are you going to do the mushroom one? Oh, I don't know where, what happened to that one? Oh good. It was disgusting, everybody. But everybody, just so that you know, Sandra Brown's recipe includes, is guacamole, but she does say that she likes vanilla ice cream with Kahlua on top and she drinks sangria almost every day. I mean, bless, good job. Exactly. Bless. So that is Loves Leading Ladies by Catherine Falk. And if you're interested in more of those recipes, maybe follow me on Instagram. Oh, yeah. This could get me to like, to actually like, go down that road. To, yeah. Video status. I mean, that does sound fascinating. Anyways, welcome everyone to Faded Mates. I'm Sarah McClain. I read romance novels and I write them. And I am fascinated by old romance authors cooking. I'm Jennifer Prokof, a romance reader and editor. And today we're here. And what we're going to be doing is on our discord, we put a kind of call for like AMA questions. And so some are like, for recommendation, some are, do you have a question for us together? Some questions just for Sarah, some questions just for Jed. And then we said, does anyone have questions just for Eric? And we're going to start with this because it's really, really funny. And a lot of them were just kind of like, you know, thank you and you're awesome. But there was one, and you know what everybody, I'm sorry, I didn't even say like, what's your name or anything. So probably we would have forgotten that. Tell that anyway. So the difference was somebody said for Eric, what song do you want to hear played on the organ? So we called him down here and we were like, we asked him the question and he actually, everyone chortled, I would say. Like I would say, it's just rare, everyone. Sound that came up. That's why I was like, we got to ask him this one. It was really funny. And then he sort of was like, none. And then he kept thinking because of course that's a really provocative question. And then he said, be aggressive by Faith No More, which everybody is a song about blowjobs. So he's like, and I don't know why, but that's the first thing that popped into my head. So and what I would say is if you know anything about Faith No More, I feel like Mike Patton just got a chill and was like, I need to right re-report, be aggressive, I'm in the organ for some strange reason. So you know, my friend's son, he is husband is like a organist. He'll really play the organ. Well, maybe you could ask him. I might have to do that. I might be like, layered. Can you please for Eric's birthday, fire up your organ and record, be aggressive by Faith No More. I'm sure is there sheet music for such a thing? I don't know. I'm going to find out. An organ rendition sheet music? Probably not, but he's like a real organist. Sure, he probably figured it out. Make do. I mean, it's pretty funny. So anyway, that's a great question. And honestly, what an answer. What an answer. What an answer. This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Emma Wardell, author of Meetings with the Minotaur, the first in his new Love at Labyrinth Solutions series, an office moncom, meaning monster romcom. Listen, if you have never read an Emma Wardell book, I have always had a good time with every single one I read. And he writes just like every single different kind of books. So I'm really looking forward to this. So what we have here are Magnus, our Minotaur CEO. He is varying control in the boardroom, in his life, and over the beast that lives inside his suit. Is he, though? Until Jamie Torres walks into his world. Now, Jamie, Magnus thinks is his new junior strategist, right? But what he doesn't know is that Jamie is essentially impersonating this high-level executive to impress Magnus. In fact, he is straight out of the mailroom. So the truth is, Jamie is trying to keep his professional smile in place while staring at Magnus's very amazing horns, his thighs, his everything. So, but when push comes to shove, Jamie really maybe might be the guy to help land a huge new account or will his lies be discovered and will he be sent back to the basement? So, boy, I can bet that horns will be involved. They better, right? If you are also interested in how the horns get involved, then you can get this book, Meetings with the Minotaur, right now in print, ebook, audiobook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Emma Wardell for sponsoring this week's episode. Oh, here's one for you. Okay, because we're never going to do a motorcycle club episode because I don't, I don't read motorcycle clubs. Not for any reason other than just, it's just not my thing. Yeah. All right. So I've just finished Joanna Wilde's Reaper's series and I loved it. The characters, the angst, the sexiness, the plot, all of it is perfect. Yeah. Would love another wreck like this. It can be motorcycle club or not. Yeah, I would say, so I would, I have a couple of the answers. Okay, so Joanna Shoup and I did a, like a thing once on, like sort of motorcycle club versus mafia. And I think that like Joanna's mafia series, which is under her pen name, Mila Finnelli, actually, I think would like sort of hit a lot of those same kind of beats, right? Like kind of the sexiness and the like edge of violence and, you know, that kind of thing. And she also writes like a real strong heroine, but often one that are, you know, kind of like trapped by circumstances. And I think that's what a lot of the, to me, like the appeal of those books can be the sort of like, I'm really down on my luck for whatever reason or like sort of this world is the only world that I have. And so I would say Joanna's, like any of Joanna's mafia books in particular, maybe her, there's this like New York state of mafia series, because it's sort of like in the, you know, like sort of small town girl kind of like falling into this world, which I think a lot of the reapers books kind of fall, I kind of have that vibe. And then in terms of like a straight up motorcycle series, I really like the ghost town east series by Amelia Shea. And she actually has a lot of different series. She has a first series called ghost town, then ghost town east, then there is a series called the reign of the underground. And I've read all of them. She just started a new one. I can't remember what it is, but I read it. And I think the thing that I like actually about Amelia's books is that a lot of the things I kind of struggle with in, is like in the sub genre is like, I think it's really hard. Like you're in, when you have such a, the world is so small, right? It's the motorcycle club or the mafia or whatever. I think it's really hard to figure out how to make the books feel really different or interesting. And the answer is you do that by making the heroines really different and interesting. I think Joanna figured that out. I think Joanna Wilde figured it out. And I think that Amelia Shea has figured it out. So when you read these books, it's like, you know, the men are just like, you know, I'm the president or whatever. I'm the old kind of road cap to whatever their dumb titles are. Sorry if those are real. But in the books themselves, like all these women who kind of like get involved in this world are really different. So I would say those are two authors that you should check out would be Milla Fanelli and Amelia Shea. So do we want to do a question for us? Oh wait, this is a really funny question. Okay. All right, ready? Okay. The question is, what would our lives look like if we were two spinsters living together in regency times? What Tom Fulery would you get up to? Well, Sarah would be making weirdo fucking recipes, I guess. I'd be doing laundry and laying on the couch reading. That's funny. Well, I think that we are certainly, I mean, there is a sort of a chaos to me that you do not have. Yeah, I'm real nosy though. You'd be like stirring shit up in the village, but I'd be the one like knowing all the what's what that's going on. I mean, you would be a good gossip. A real lady whistle down character. Yeah, I think it's the midwesterner in me. Like I really do love to, you know, chat with a local. I mean, even like this morning, I'm staying at hotel in Brooklyn and the guy making my coffee and I'm sort of chatting him up, but you know, in the hotel. I'm like, yeah, it's pretty quiet around here. And he's like, well, you know, it's March 17th. He's like, well, you know, if I think a lot of people are going down for the, you know, the crowd and I'm like, oh, it's a parade. And I was like, oh, sure. And then I'm like, oh, I'm from Chicago and I'm telling him about dying the river green. And then he's like, you know, I don't really like a crowd. And he tells me a whole story about like this girlfriend he had once where she did like a crowd and she wanted to go see the fireworks. And he's like, you know, he's like, and I thought, you know, I knew I like this girl. We're going to go down there together. That's okay. And then he like kind of got as the crowds got thicker and thicker. He just said, she's not worth it. And like, she's not, you know, like just brutal. Yeah. She's like, he's like, my fear of crowds is bigger than whatever I feel for this lady. And so he just peeled off the, that was that. You got to respect it, I guess. And I, but I did. I found myself thinking like, I'd be really good at the, you know, chatting up the locals. Like, listen, if a stranger came to town, I would know what's up. No, immediately, nearly where I would know. Yeah. I'd be the person finding that. No, and I would be sort of the local rabble rouser. I'd be in the parade. Yes, you would. Just, I'd be like, oh, the parade's happening. God damn it. I'm going to stay home and read my book. Sarah, put your lace cap on like a lady. Oh, here, this person also has a very quick one for me, which is, I need to know which of your books use shimp rope for sexy reasons. And now, okay, the reason why this came up is because when I was in Rhode Island for the event about historical romance with Adriana and Joanna and Caroline Lindem and Ginny B. Moore, there was a question that came up about, we played a family feud but make it romance. And so we broke into teams where like there were authors and then people from the audience were part of the team. And one of the questions was, well, you know, we asked a hundred people. What you would tie someone up with in a historical novel. Sure, okay. And I hit my button first, obviously. Yeah, you're like, bam. And I said, a ship's rope. And it was like answer number four. Number one was a cravat, everyone. And I mean, fine. But in the Sarah MacLean universe, that is not accurate. Sure, 50 shades of cravat. And everybody, that book is called, or to this person, because a lot of people already know this, that book is called Brazen and the Beast. And it is the second in my Bare Knuckle Bastard series, but you can read it out of order, I would think. Yeah, I think so. I knew the answer to that question. Anyone, everyone enjoy yourselves. There is a very famous line that the hero says to the heroine in that book, and it's related to the ship's rope. And enjoy yourself. Nice, nice. Okay, let's do for one for the both of us. Okay, I'm doing a presentation to Maryland and Delaware librarians, mostly public and academic libraries, in May on romance. What are three things you would like them to know? That's a great question. So for the purposes of reader advisory, it is, I think, really important for, I think, for librarians to know about the happily ever after, essentially, like what makes a romance a romance? Because, you know, someone comes up to you, a librarian, and says, like, you know, I want to read a romance, and then you tell them about, you know, the fault in our stars or something like that, right? So knowing the difference between a happily ever after romance, whatever that looks like, versus a, you know, there is a relationship in this book. I think a lot about how, you know, outsiders think that that feels limiting. But, you know, we know that the happily ever after can look a million different ways. That doesn't just mean marriage and a baby. That could mean a lot of different things. But really, all it means is, like, whatever it is that these two, or three, or however many people want together, they are committed to doing it together, right, to being together. The other thing I always feel is important to say to people who don't know a lot about romance is, I guess, it's twofold. One is that romance is a deep, like there's a deep bench to romance. And because there is such a deep bench for romance, there is really something for everyone in this world. I think one of the challenges for, one of the barriers to entry for librarians and booksellers in romance is, and I hear it all the time from booksellers about romance, especially in independent bookstores that don't carry a lot of romance, is the sort of sense of, it's so big, I don't know where, I don't know what to carry. Like, I don't know where to begin with somebody. And I think that one of the valuable things for librarians to know is that, basically, if you're interested in literally anything, there is a romance out there for you. And so, discoverability, obviously, knowing that that is a big hurdle for a lot of people who do book recommendations and discovery, I would say, I would want them to understand and know that there are cornerstone places where they can go to learn more about the genre, but also to find those books. Like, what are the books that should be on your shelf? Where can I get best books of the year lists? Where can I get respected lists of books about whatever, a certain type of person, a certain identity, a certain place, a certain time period. And I think, obviously, this is not a plug for fated mates, but we exist, smart bitches exist. Like, there are a number of places where people can go to get those lists. And to explore, I would say the third thing is, okay, someone coming in the door who is new to romance is probably going to be driven by, like, right now in time, either Bridgerton or heated rivalry, right? We're seeing new pathways opening in front of readers that are going to bring them into the genre. And so, if I was a librarian who knew nothing about romance, I would sort of trust my diehard romance readers to already know how to maybe discover new books. But what I would be doing is trying to be able to answer that question of, okay, I really loved heated rivalry, the show, what can I read now? I really love Bridgerton, the show. It feels like what I would want to do is really think strategically about who is going to be coming in to me as a librarian, right? And then, and for your academic librarians, I mean, I think there's some people doing academic research in romance, but I think a lot of what, a lot of this stuff that's interesting that's happening in romance is like really being driven by TikTok and Instagram and podcasts and things like that. And so, academic romance exists and is out there. And they, you know, obviously these are people who are also deeply invested in the genre. They're bothering to write about it. But people coming in who are like, I didn't think I would like romance, but I sure did like heated rivalry. You should be prepared for that, right? I feel like I have heard that from so many people who are like, I have you watched heated rivalry, do you know about heated rivalry? And when I'm like, yes, it's a book. Yeah. They're like, wait, what? Like they really are shocked to learn that there are books that feel like this. This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Kay Lin, author of Lights Camera, not that is K and OT, not everybody. So Kay Lin is someone we actually all know. This is the Omegaverse pen name. And this is the debut from the Omegaverse pen name of Kayla Gross, who you all know, if you've listened to Faded Mates, we think Kayla's great. She always writes these like high heat, very sexy contemporaries that feature plus sized heroines. So I'm a big fan. And I'm super excited for this one, which is a high heat MMFMM Omegaverse romance starring Iris Walker, who is an actress and she's landed a lead role in a romantic comedy called Notting Hill with a K. A plus. Complete with an all star cast and crew. And finally, finally, the chance to prove just how good of an actress she really is beyond the roles that she's always been pigeonholed into, except Iris's heat suppressants have just worn off and she is going into heat hard. And the director, cinematographer, writer and leading man are all her scent matches, which means that they may have come to make movie magic, but they're going to be making a lot of magic in other ways too. Teamwork makes the dream work so well. Ha ha ha. Listen, if the cover is any indication, this is going to be a blazing hot Omegaverse romance for anybody who is excited about that. I certainly am. So if you would like to check out Light's Camera, not the first in the Angel City Omega series, it is available in print audio and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Kay Lin for sponsoring this week's episode. Okay, this is a great question. It says for Sarah only, but I think we can both talk about it, which is, okay, someone said, I find it very awkward talking to my favorite authors at book signings. What is the best way for a fan to not make that experience awkward for the author? It's not awkward. Yeah, for the author is my answer. I think we are so grateful to meet you at book signings and to spend a little time with you. And we appreciate that you've made time in your day for us. I mean, I would say the awkward experiences that I have had with people at book signings are often with other authors. The reader author experience is not awkward at all for us. We are so happy to meet you. Not going to tell you you shouldn't feel awkward, but I hope that I can allay and assuage some of your feelings about it by telling you that we are not feeling that awkwardness. Part of the reason I picked this one is I've been seeing something like fairly horrifying on threads, which is authors reporting that what people are doing is printing out bad reviews from Goodreads. And then like, yeah, I saw this too. And I, what? I know. And so I guess I would say, but that's awkward. That's just being mean. And I think that's like more than anything else. Like this is a person who if they're, if you're meeting them in a public venue, right? Like they're giving a talk or they're at a bookstore with a book coming out or they're at a book con. These are authors who have said like, I want to do this. I want to meet fans. So I will say this, I really love going to book cons. And what I really like to do is, you know, you're going to see huge long lines for some authors, right? Because of course, you know, you're there to see your favorites. But one of my favorite things in a way that I have really found like interesting good books is by going up to people with like a shorter line or, you know, with no line because there's so many people. And just what I often ask authors is, I say, you know, like they have several books for sale often. And I say like, well, which one is your favorite? Tell me about it. I feel like the way for me to make that, because I have that same awkward thing. Like Sarah's always like, I don't even often tell people like I'm from Fated Me. It's like, what if they don't know and then I have to explain and then it's awkward. I'm feeling awkward too. But if, you know, if it's an author and someone is asking like with genuine curiosity, right, like, tell me about your books and which one is your favorite, that to me is, I would imagine an author would love to answer that question or talk about, you know, the writing experience. So one of the ways I do that is really by like meeting the author where they want to be met, which is about the books that they have, you know, written. Um, okay, this is an interesting question. And I think we're going to do this because we care about it. Okay, that's a big one. Yeah. Okay. So it says, can we talk about the history of the paperback formats for romance? So essentially it's like kind of the trade paperback versus the mass market paperback, you know, where other historicals ever in trade, right? Like, or did they stay in mass market? And I would say like one of the things you should know everybody is that, you know, when you come to like mass market, like the size of the book is about the price point on your end, right? Like a mass market paperback was a lot cheaper than a trade size paperback, which is cheaper than a cardback book. But that also means that the margins are different for booksellers. So, you know, when it comes to a trade paperback, you can sell it for a lot more, but its actual printing costs is not a whole lot more. Right. So the, I mean, trades existed, obviously, before the pandemic. And the goal of moving the books from mass market to trade, Berkeley started it. Well, no, wasn't it? Who did the Hayden game? No, it happened before that. So Berkeley moved contemporary romance from mass market to paperback in the early 10s. And it was Julie James, actually weirdly who I'm going to talk about later in this episode. But it was Julie James and it was sort of this like moment where we all kind of like lifted our head and we're like, oh, Julie, who had been published in mass market, was being moved over into trade. And we all sort of knew like, oh, something is happening. Kate Noble was moved right around then too. And it was like, it was a big talk and sort of, I would think it was sort of right when my first book came out. So I would say like it was like 2009, 2010, when this all happened. What I remember about that is it was the first time my local indie bookstore actually had a romance because it was worse putting on the shelf. Yeah. I like, right. So Jen is right that it was about price point. And then right before the pandemic, there was a panel discussion about romance novels at Penguin Random House. I went to it, it was maybe February of 2019. And Berkeley kind of said it was a bunch of different editors and Cindy Huang, who was an editor at Berkeley, was on the panel. And she said, we are moving, we moved romance into trade because contemporary romance into trade because we saw that YA readers were growing up and they were willing to spend more money on books than adult readers were. And so we sort of thought, well, what we'll do is we'll follow that trend and move them in this direction. Now, you're right that the Hayden game when it came out, which was an Avon book, came out in trade and it was a sort of, it was a big deal that that happened. Well, and it had that like really distinctive cartoon that illustrated. Hell, it was the first of its kind. And then Berkeley quickly followed with Helen Hoang and Jasmine Guillory on a behind. And so, you know, those three really sort of made a big, a big splash. This question includes a question, a sort of sub question about nine rules to break when romancing rake, which was my first romance novel and came out in mass market in 2010. But then was re-released in trade at some point. Yeah. I don't remember when. 2020 maybe? 2019 maybe? I can't remember. It was maybe the 10th anniversary of it. And that was because there was a kind of question of, right, well, could we move historical into trade? And it was a test balloon more than anything else. And that, you know, the problem is, is that with a test balloon, you really need a new book. Yeah. And that book was, you know, a decade old and people had already bought it in mass and read it in mass. And so there wasn't really, it wasn't a good example, but nobody else was getting trade at the time in historical. And we've only just recently seen historical move toward trade. Harper St. George was moved into trade. India Holton. India Holton, Evie Dunmore, but I would argue Evie Dunmore was really pushed not as romance, but as historical fiction, like historical, yeah, romantic fiction. Mm-hmm. And so now the mass is gone for lots of reasons, not the least of which is the printers over the course, a bunch of printers closed during the pandemic. And the printers, not every printer prints in mass. And so it was getting more expensive to print the mass markets and also be able to sell them at the same price that, you know, readers wanted them in. And so now this is why I've just recently posted on threads, like if you care about your old historical books, like books that you love on in E or in print, but you don't have them on your shelf yet. Yeah. If you are the kind of person who ultimately will want them on your shelf, you need to go look in on eBay and at library sales and at tag sales in your neighborhood and book sales, because the used versions of those mass markets are going to be the only versions of a lot of those goods in print, which is unfortunate. But until the publishers start figuring out how they're going to reissue all of those books in print, those are also going to be the best versions of them. Because right now, for example, if you look at 11 scandals to start to win a Duke's heart, which is one of my books, the current printing of that, it looks terrible, the quality of the paper is bad, the color isn't bright. There's a ton about that that isn't, it's just not a good printing of it. And it's because it's being printed, you know, off market. It's not being printed by the kind of printer that it used to be printed by. So used books are going to become really valuable, I think, to the reader. I don't know if they'll become valuable, like financially, but sure, right. But it's to you, right? If you want one, yeah. Fascinating and bad. I want to talk about that ex files question. This week's episode of Fatemates is sponsored by Blue Box Press, publishers of Jennifer Lynn Armand Trout's The Summer King, a beautiful new print bind up of the three novellas in the Summer King saga. Originally, the Prince, the King, and the Queen. So, Caden is the Prince. He is cold, heartless, and deadly, and whispers of his name alone, bring fear to fey and mortals alike. He is the most dangerous being in the mortal world, haunted by a past he couldn't control, and driven by a singular desire. What's it going to be? Sarah, that would be revenge. Yeah. There's only one person who can help him. Her name is Brighton, and she was raised in something called the Order. So, she is really fully aware of what Caden is capable of. And so, even though he claims to be reformed, she wants nothing to do with him until he leaves her no choice. So, forced into an uneasy alliance, she is starting to glimpse the man beneath the ice. You know, she just feels like she can't trust him. So, when a enemy, right, comes back into town, a nightmare hell bent on destroying the world, this is Brighton and Caden have no choice but to continue to work together. But this, of course, makes it harder to deny the hunger between them. Well, I'm sure they'll get over denying that hunger, and we'll all be very happy for it. If you would like to read The Summer King and The Summer King Saga, you can do that right now in print in this beautiful new bind up, or in e-book or audiobook. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Blue Box Press and to Jennifer Lynn Armand-Trout for sponsoring this week's episode. I'm dying to find a book like the first episode of X-Files, and I don't remember the first episode of X-Files, but the second part of this question is any wrecks that involve reluctant partners while solving a mystery, like, which makes sense. Yeah. And while I don't have a sci-fi answer, I do want to talk about Julie James. Julie's FBI US Attorney series has a terrific book in it. It's the first one. It's called Something About You. Do we read this? I think so. It's the one where she, it starts with her in the closet and she's murdered. Yeah, yeah. So we have a deep dive episode for this one, but it's a great wreck if you haven't read it. It's about a US Attorney and an FBI agent who have worked together in the past. The FBI agent put like two years of undercover and like intense work into a case, and then it was dropped by the US attorneys for, you know, reasons. And he has resented her and blamed her for the fact that the case was dropped for, you know, years. And now they're back at it. She was in a hotel room and there's a murder of a very important person in the room next door. And the two of them have to work together to solve the murder. And, you know, there's a lot of danger, but they don't like each other. And they, you know, Julie James does an enemy celebs in work, kind of every book. Like she's really interested in work partners who hate each other and then fall in love. But this is a, it's really, she's a great writer and this is a great book. And once you've read it, you can go listen to our deep dive episode. There is an, oh, I think I'm going to have a hard time coming up with this title off the top of my head. I'm not going to find the name, but I, right now, but I will find it and put it in show notes. But there was a series of gay romances with an FBI agent and they were really fun. And I think that they would sort of strike that like kind of vibe of, you know, like sort of we're like partners in crime. But so I'm sorry, the title of that will be in show notes. I will find it. That's a whole series. And all I remember is that like the names of the titles have like liquor in them, like ones about whiskey or something. But it is really interesting that we've talked about like kind of what's happening with romantic suspense, but there are a lot of romance mysteries happening right now. And it's interesting to figure out like kind of what is different because to me, a romantic suspense is like a thriller, right? Like we're on the run. Whereas a romantic mystery is like we're really trying to like solve this crime. And often I think they've drifted away from like cops or FBI agents or whatever being like the, you know, the kind of main characters. But it is interesting to think about kind of those books. And like one I read was by, there's an author named Jenny Elder Moke, I think. And there was a book called like She Hasn't Got a Clue. And it's like, I don't think it quite has like the creepiness of the X-Files, but like they go to a, you know, an island together of like a wealthy, you know, it's like a wedding at like a billionaires island in the, you know, Pacific Northwest. And there's like a dead body and the two, like their guests of the wedding, essentially, you know, go and solve the crime. So I think Sherry Thomas now is writing what I would consider like mystery. And some of them have like romance elements. So that's what I would say is maybe looking for those. Okay. Jen, have you ever thought of writing a romance novel? No. You know, and I don't mean that. Here's what I would say. I can't imagine why that doesn't seem appealing to you. Well, I'll tell, I'll tell you why, Sarah. It is not that I, I don't, I don't have people running around in my head. I don't think that way. And I used to say something I think really kind of mean about myself, which is like that I was like, I don't think I have an imagination. This is clearly not true. I think I have lots of interesting and good ideas, but not about fictional people. And I think that like good writers or, you know, fiction writers are sort of constantly filtering things through the brain of like, oh, like this snippet of dialogue. What would the character who is this, you know what I mean? Like, and I just don't think I have that in me. And I think to be a good novelist, you probably have to have that going on up there. And I do not. And so no, it's, it's, I've never wanted to write a book, but you know, I would not have said before I started editing that I think editing is creative work, but it is. And I think that's because like I'm looking, I mean, other kind of editing I do is developmental editing. So I'm, you know, people give me their manuscripts and what I'm doing is really looking at it and saying, okay, like what is the, what is the best version of this book that could possibly exist? And, you know, obviously when an author sends it to me, they're like, here's what I have. And, you know, it's like my job to say, right, here are all the things that are working. And then like here are the things that aren't, and here are some ways that you might address that, not for you as like prescriptive, like do it this way. But if I give you some ideas, you're going to then take those ideas and, and, you know, run with them. And, but often my job is also to sort of be the person to be like, this isn't working. You know, and often authors know that, but have someone, have someone come along and kind of be like, you know, and then sort of offer again, some suggestions and, and is it cutting it? Is it putting it in a different order? So I don't have that in me, but I have this other thing in me and I think that's a good thing too. But no, I've never in my life. And sometimes I think like maybe it'll come to me. I'll have a flash of it, maybe. And then I'm like, no. I mean, no, maybe. No, really no, everybody. Okay. This person also asked about Dutchess's book. So let me get that out of the way. Dutchess's book is finished. It's finished. I don't know when it's coming out. That is a, that is above my pay grade. It was supposed to come out. Obviously a lot of people have seen it listed for at number, at a different times. I think it is probably coming out early 2027. I'm sorry, everybody. It actually took a long time for me to write it because I wanted it to feel right. And so, but it is finished. It is coming. You will get it. Yeah. At least if you don't get it, it's not because of me. You've done your part of the job. Exactly. Oh, that's funny. Okay. I think this is interesting. I'm recovering from a year of breast cancer treatments and we are grateful to still have you here, whoever you are. And I'm happy that it's, you're in recovery. And I'm having trouble getting back into romance. I would love a recommendation for someone, for something where the main character finds joy, but also has to contend with sadness, not angst, but sadness and something that reads like the gunkle, the gunkle with romance. Any suggestions? I think this is really interesting because I think there are a few authors who actually really nail sadness. I think Kennedy Ryan is an author who really nails sadness. And I think before I let go, which is the first in her current series, which the name of which I cannot remember the name of the, Skyland. Skyland, yeah, the Skyland series is a book where, now the sadness here comes from divorce. There is mental health wrap in this book. And these are characters who really have to contend with grief in the text. And it's not, I don't think it's, I don't think it's grief. I think it's, it's grief, yes, but it's also just sort of sadness about like where their lives have been, where their marriage has been. I mean, this is of course like a marriage and trouble book or it's actually they're divorced at the beginning of the page. It's sort of a return to marriage for a divorced couple. But you know, Kennedy, she writes a really perfectly drawn character in sadness. I think this is, it's not just about this series. I think she does this in a lot of her books. And so I would recommend Kennedy, if you haven't done Kennedy before, she is a good place for you to start. I was going to say, especially now that it is, it's April, a third, whatever. So Kate's book, The Paris Match came out yesterday. And so this Kate Claiborne and in this book, That's the one. Yeah, Griffin is, it's really interesting because what you have are Griffin and Leila and they're in Paris together for a wedding. And through sort of like the kind of setup is that the bride gets cold feet and these two kind of feel in some ways almost compelled to like trying to like kind of figure out what's going on because of their various relationships to the bride and groom. And both of them, I think are really dealing with like both the sadness of like kind of the life they wanted and that they're in both in there like well into their 30s and sort of right like these are people who had things go wrong. And then kind of how you continue to deal with that because of the ways in which those failures almost continue to resonate. And then kind of the goodness of being able to sort of maybe finally like go of that in some way. So I think The Paris Match would be really a good one as well. And like it literally just came out yesterday. I'm going to switch it up and also recommend something a little weird, which is The Beast Prince by Mary and Pereira. I've talked about this book before. It's a paranormal, it's sort of a fantasy world where the whole world is run by these brothers who can command the elements. And the premise of this book is that there is a town, a kind of village that lives below the high castle in which the prince who can manipulate earth lives. And every year and by manipulating earth, like the theory in the village is that he causes mudslides and he causes earthquakes, like he causes natural disasters. And so every year or every number of years they send a virgin up to him to sacrifice. And basically as like tribute with the idea that like this virgin will be able to keep them, this gift will be able to keep the village safe. And in this book they send up a woman who is also the leader of the guard of this town with the idea that like she might actually be able to vanquish him and save the village for a longer period of time. And she gets up there and she discovers him and what we know as readers, but she hasn't figured out as character is that he's lost his powers. And what I would say about this book, I love this book. I think it is so interesting. I think it is a great example of what, how complex emotion can be in romance, which is I know a little silly when we're talking about paranormal or fantasy or this kind of like structure, but what I would say is this book is very heavy. Like he is contending with sadness over the loss of his powers. She is contending with like responsibility, the heavy weight of responsibility. And it is a book that feels weight, heavy. It feels it's not, it does not tell the story of romance as joy. It tells the story as like romance as healing. And I think if you're obviously this is nothing like the gunkle, but if you're, if you're looking for something that will sort of shake loose, maybe your romance reading, this could be it because it's so different than anything that you've probably read. This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Loomie Gummies, consistent, mellow, and super delicious. Loomie Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de-stressor, a midday mood boost, or help getting the best sleep ever, Loomie Gummies has a strain that's right for you. So I gummed up my knee when I was in London. I went to London for like a week and I walked a bunch and I carried a really heavy purse the whole time, which was really stupid. Like, you know, when you're doing something, you're thinking yourself like, oh my God, this is really dumb. I shouldn't be doing this. That's exactly how I felt like for five of the eight days that we were on the island of Britain. The whole time I was like, I'm going to really like, I could feel my, my knee sort of like groaning. And when I got home, it gave out. It was sort of like, okay, we're done with this now. And I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And Eric said to me, why don't you take a gummy? And I was like, oh, that's a good idea. So I was, this is, I'm not a doctor, but I did the like ice elevation, you know, knee brace and the gummy. And it was like a perfect combo to just make me feel like really nice. And like, it took the, it took the edge off the old, the old joint there. And now I think things are getting better, but I did do that for a few days. And I don't regret it. I'm going to be honest. So thanks, Loomie gummies. So perfect. If you are interested, Loomie gummies are available nationwide. Go to loomiegummies.com. That's L U M I gummies.com and use the code faded mates for 30% off you for your order. Again, that's L U M I gummies.com code faded mates, Loomie gummies.com code faded mates. Thanks to Loomie gummies for sponsoring this week's episode. All right, Jen, yeah, how has your work as a developmental editor changed you as a reader? Particularly when I'm trying to read on my own. Okay, so everybody, that's a great question. I listen, unless you are paying me, I'm not going to read like a developmental editor. People are like, can you turn it off? I sure as fuck am like, I don't, that would be horrible. I would honestly stop editing if that if it was ruining me as a reader, right? But I would say like, I put on my editor's hat, like I really decide, you know, like, okay, now I am reading this book in a very different way. And it just feels like more purposeful. You know, it's like the difference between, I don't know, like you can be in the kitchen and you can be like cooking the best meal of your life. And there's an intentionality to that that is different than when you're like, you know, eating some eating, making a sandwich or whatever, right? So it is the rare book that like breaks through that way. And honestly, and this is kind of a bad thing to say, I'm just sure I won't name names. But often, if it if I'm reading a book, and I can't stop thinking about it in terms of like, through the developmental editing lens, it often is a book that is a failure to me, but where I can see, I can see the way the book could have worked, right? Or that I feel like the author is sort of, you open the book and XYZ way, and then you, you didn't like follow your own path. You know what I mean? Like, I think there's ways in which fiction sort of works, and it's like a promise to the reader. And so like in a book, right, like in kind of pure, a pure plot, right, like plotting, the inciting incident in introduces a conflict to characters. It is the problem that they have to solve. And the impediments are each other, their own, you know, whatever. And by the end of the book, then that problem should be solved, right? Like, the inciting incident says, I've introduced some work to these characters, now they have to do it. And if you introduce that conflict and then don't follow through on that, that to me is a book where I'm like, well, what are you doing then? If I can't turn off that voice, it's like usually a book I'm disappointed in. Here's a book that could have been so good. And instead, it drove off into a different direction. And I'm kind of like, and why? And in a romance especially, so I guess I would say, I don't typically let it, you know, I don't know if that's a good answer or not. But yeah, I think that's a good answer. Okay, super niche question. What are some good romances set in Toronto? Besides those written by Jackie Lau, Uzma Jalaladine, and Rachel Reed, all of whom are great. Actually, we confirm all of those are great. But I want more please and thank you. Uh, Farrah Harron is one of the obvious answer there, right? Farrah Harron lives in Toronto and writes about Toronto. Jenny Holiday. She writes about Toronto? She does. Well, she writes about sort of the upper Midwest, but her bridesmaids behaving badly series, one and only is a favorite romance of mine for a long time. That whole series is set in Toronto. You know, it's funny because I was talking about Mila Finnelli and this, the second book in her New York State of Mafia series is the one where Vito, it goes down to Maggie's winery, but he is a Toronto based mobster. And there is actually a really great scene where he like takes her back to Toronto. And they have this incredible kind of time and she is away from her like sort of little small town. And so that's also a really good one. There are a lot of Vancouver's, but yeah, I can't think of a ton more Toronto's, although when we stop recording, I will remember all of them. There is a pretty active Toronto romance writers group. And so maybe check them out. They have a really good website. They have an Instagram, but that doesn't mean that they're all set in Toronto, but I think it's probably a pretty good place to start. I also love Toronto. Clean Chicago. Yes, look, what a city. This is an interesting question for you, Sarah. Is there an itch that writing contemporary scratches that historical does not market reasons aside? You've written storms and then the one about the Duke with the sheep. Okay. Yeah, I was like, the one about the Duke with the sheep? I mean, sure. Well, so I think so those are two very different books. Yes. And I actually don't think that they scratch the same itch at all. The Duke with the sheep one, which is called a Duke worth falling for. I wrote during the first summer of the pandemic, and I wrote it without ever intending, like I knew I would probably put it up as an indie, but like, I was never going to sell it. It wasn't on contract. It was literally just like, what if I sat down and I wrote something that would bring me out of this crazy world that I am in. And for me, whereas a lot of people would go, well, isn't that what historical is? Like, no, that's my job. So I think about historical romance all day, every day, because that's what I write. Yeah. So a Duke worth falling for was really about like, what if I tried something totally different, but like that I would love. Storms is not a romance novel, right? So, I mean, it is a romance in the sense that there's a happily ever after, but like the itch that that scratch was really being able to expand the world of characters. I'm very, very rigid when it comes to my romances about it's, this is the story of these two particular dummies falling in love. Right. And while I hope that you're drawn to all of the secondary and tertiary characters in my books, like, I don't want you distracted by them. Yeah. The way that I want you focused deeply on the main characters. And in storms, I wrote a family and it was great to write, you know, six different characters who all have like real real estate on page and all had important work to be done. And the romance actually there's no there's no point of view of the hero in storms on the romance side, because when I actually wrote that point of view, I felt that it took away from the story that I was actually trying to tell. So the itch that storm scratch was that sort of what happens when I can tell the story of all these characters at one time. But I still much prefer writing two dummies falling in love. My favorite thing to read. Yep. Three dummies falling in love. However, meant dummies falling in love. Yeah, I've never written three, but never say never. All right. Jen, what's your favorite dinosaur? I don't think I have one. Well, do you mean you're disappointing the audience here? Okay, I will say, okay, I will admit, okay, maybe I'll say T-Rex, but like not me because it's a dinosaur. Kelly used to say this thing that was like, okay, like think in your head about how like a T-Rex has like, like, you know, those little arms. Yeah. And so she would say this thing that always really made me laugh, which is like, you know, when someone is like learned helplessness, right? Like, you know, it's like a man, you tell him to go find something in the fridge and they're like, I can't find it. You know, and it's like T-Rex arms, you know, just like, and I do this to the kids at work all the time, right? Like, you know, I'll be like, go find this thing in your locker and they'll be like, it'll be like T-Rex arms, like, come on, like do it. But I guess I don't know if that's a real answer, but I do think the velociraptors in those drastic part movies seem very terrifying. Terrifying, but also like, cool. Queens. Sure. Yeah, for sure. Getting shit done. Yeah, I do like those movies. Who is my favorite historical romance author of all time? I mean, in person, it's me. Well, obviously. In books too. I mean, you know, that's hard to answer. I guess I will say this. I wouldn't know the answer to this question. Yeah, I don't either. Is it Julie Garwood? I guess I'd say Garwood, right? I mean, in turn, but that's, is that just like longevity? You know, I've been reading Julie Garwood for so long, and I do feel like there's something in like my DNA that was Julie Garwood put there. But, you know, God, I love obviously, Clapeus, Beverly Jenkins, there's Beverly Jenkins books that really stick with me. I mean, Jude Devereux, The Old Heads, you know? What about you? Well, I mean, my classic, my old, my old head, yeah, is McNaught. Yeah. But I do feel like everything about us really probably boils down to you're a McNaught person a little bit more, and I'm a Garwood person a little bit more. I think that's probably true. Right. Like if you were really like explaining the nature of your differences. Writing an essay about us. Yes. But one like Scarwood, one like McNaught, and if you know, you know, right? And like this morning, I had a minor panic attack, and I literally was just like, I'm just gonna get a quick hit of a kingdom of dreams. You know, like just to take the edge, I'm sure. Of course. But actually, I would say, and this is, I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear this, but my favorite romance, historical romance novelist is Lorraine Heath. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's because she is modern in a lot of ways. Like she tells a really modern story. Yeah. But she is fearless about the things that she chooses to write. And I think all gas, no brakes. All gas, no brakes. I've never read him, Heath, that I couldn't get through in six hours. Yeah. And I feel like she is somebody who I admire. I admire her as a person. I admire her as a writer. I admire her, her attention to craft. And also, I feel like every time I read one of her books, I think like, if only I could be as fearless as this woman is. So I think as a writer, she is a favorite. Yeah. For me. This is a really funny question. Someone asked for my favorite Ohio based romance. Do you have an answer for this? I do. Okay. When I was a young romance reader, Janet Daly did this thing, which I was really fascinated. Yeah, which is she was writing a book in every state. And I remember really being like, no one would ever write a book set in Ohio because is this the most boring place in God's creation? You know, then I found out Toni Morrison was from Ohio and was like, okay, well, fine. I guess if Ohio is good enough for Toni Morrison, good enough for me. Yeah, I mean, but I love it. If I were Ohio, I would put Toni Morrison on every billboard. Yeah. Right. No, totally. Ohio, birthplace of Toni Morrison, right? Okay, I'm talking about Ohio books now. And love it then is right when she has crossed the Ohio River. She's crossed from Kentucky to Ohio. And, you know, I was always fascinated with the idea that, and I mean, the book is as well, right? Like, there's such a thin line between memory and present and beloved. And there's such a thin line between like being free and being not in beloved. And it's, you know, that river that defines those places. But so for me, though, the Janet date, okay, that was like a weird digression, but it's Ohio. I'm sorry, I have talked about Toni Morrison. The Ohio book for Janet Daly was very disappointing to me. I don't remember what it was. Well, so what it's worth, Janet Daly is very disappointing. We do not recommend her. Sure. But she the thing is plagiarism is bad. Yeah, right. Plagiarism is bad. Okay. And this is like, I think says something about me too, which is I read the book and realized that this book was set in Ohio, like in name only. It was a businessman in Cleveland or whatever. And so it just gave a nod. She didn't care. But she didn't care about Ohio. It wasn't really about Ohio, right? So the first romance though that I ever read that was really set in Ohio was Jenny Cruzy. It was Welcome to Temptation. It's opens with these two sisters who are sort of con artists, and they're driving into this like really small Ohio town, kind of run by this mayor who is holding off like a bunch of bigots who have cheaped out and they were too cheap to buy the right kind of paint for the water tower. And so now it looks like a huge giant cock in the middle of town. And I found myself really feeling like this is a woman who understands Ohio and Ohioans, right? And you know, Bet me and all of our like most of her books were set in Ohio, but I remember Welcome to Temptation feeling like I recognize these people. Like I recognize these characters in some very specific and meaningful way as being the kind of people, not like the main characters, but like the cast of characters, you know, as being like the kind of people that I knew that were like my mom's friends and whatever. So I still would say that like Welcome to Temptation probably is, is, and Bet me, but like Welcome to Temptation is like the answer of my heart because it was the first time I read a book and really thought like this lady really knows Ohio. Emily Henry famously lives in Cincinnati. You know, you know, there are obviously other Ohioans writing romance, but like Jenny Cruzy. Yeah, but I don't think Emily is thinking about Ohio. I think there is a certain kind of writer, and I'm not putting judgment on this like value judgment on it, but I think there's a certain kind of writer who cares a lot about setting. Yes. I think I care a lot about setting and I can recognize it in a lot of writers. I do think there, there's a difference between like, for example, Emily and B.T.R.E.B. like that lake, that house, I can see it all in my head. Right. And like she clearly cares about setting there. But then I think there are people who like start with the setting and say like, what is this place? What does it look like? How does it work? What is its magic? Yes. And I mean that even outside of fantasy. Like, yeah, what is this place's magic? And I think Bet me or Welcome to Temptation, what you're describing is, yeah, that is the magic of Ohio. Yeah. Like what is the magic of Rhode Island is a question that like I try to answer in these contemporaries that are right out there. Right. Well, and I think like, like when I read Indigo for the first time, yeah, what is the magic of Hester's world? Yeah, of Michigan. I really also key into setting a lot. I've lived in six different states and I think that I really, people who move around pay attention to the differences between places and the way you feel there. And also because it feels like in each place, you have to learn how to exist in that world. You know, what are the ways, what are the rules of this universe? And I think the thing too for me is like, some of the places I've lived, I've been really happy and some of the places I've lived, I've been really miserable. And the idea that place doesn't matter is not something I would, place does matter, place matters deeply. I really believe that like where you, you are who you are because of where you are in a lot of ways. And you can like fight a place, right? You can make room for yourself any place. And there are cool people everywhere, right? There's no reason to think that like, oh, you know, I, as a child, I thought only cool people only live in New York. No one ever cool lives in Ohio. Like I now know that's bullshit. They're cool people everywhere. But you cannot be happy everywhere. I think that's why I'm fascinated by like the idea like, you know, you go to a small town or you come back or you leave, like these should be hugely transformative life events because they are. Right? Because they are. Any last one we want to do before we go? Sex lessons. I love a sex lessons book. Me too. And I need more recommendations or maybe just a whole episode. Have we not done an episode on sex lessons? We haven't. It's on our list because I love it so much. Okay, I'm going to answer this and then maybe you have some off the top of your head. I feel like one of the things I've learned about myself all these years into the podcast is there are some books where you're like, okay, this is a time travel book. I'm going to know that in the blurb. But sex lessons is not often something that is like sort of like part of the inciting incident necessarily of the book, like it's not going to be on the back cover copy. And so sometimes I forget that a book has that, right? Unless it's like a really big part of it. And so what I need to do is sort of have like a list of things I'm sort of looking for. I've started this. Right. And then you're like, oh, this book has sex lessons. I'm going to put this on this list. And then when we finally do the episode, which we will because we keep saying we shouldn't, you love it. You know, then I'll have books like that I won't have to go hunting for those books. I will already have been sort of making that list. Yep. Yeah. So okay, my favorite like pinnacle of pinnacle sex lessons book is a category called the pleasure principle by Jane O'Reilly. It's London sets. It's an erotic novella. And the heroin is like, it's such a classic sometimes. Okay. I'm a real basic bitch. And part of the reason why I know I am a basic bitch is because I don't need it to be complicated. Like sometimes the best romances are the ones where like, it's just a clear straight shot of concept. Right. So this is a straight up heroin has a very sexy boss who throws sex parties at his house because this is what hot bosses do in London. Sure. And she is broken up with on like page one by her boyfriend who is like, you're not good in bed. And so she decides she is going to go to one of her bosses, hot sex parties and just like, check it out. Sure. Like, and she'll go and he won't even notice she's there because he doesn't care about her. He's never looked at her twice, Jen. Sure. And then of course she gets there and he's like, what the fuck are you doing here? And she tells him and then he's like, I'm going to teach you everything. And of course she's great in bed. The boyfriend was the problem. And it's great and so fun. And that's the pleasure principle by Jane O'Reilly. Also, like if you want something a little more cerebral, Helen Hoang's the kiss quotient is also sex lessons. We recently, we talked about that on the podcast recently for some reason. Yeah, I don't remember why, but we did. Yeah. And that's like a bigger book. It has a more complicated setup. But it's also delicious. She hires the heroin is on the autism spectrum and is like in a place where she hires an escort to be her like fake boyfriend and also at the same time, you know, teach her sex lessons. And he has a sort of very complicated, this is another one for the person who asked earlier about like a book that grapples with sadness. Like he has a kind of family issue, but like these two are beautiful. It's a beautiful romance. It really, I mean, there is a reason why people talk about it like a modern classic. Yeah, agree. And those are my two sort of right off the head. Off the head. Sure. And, but I mean, I wrote one, one good or one good Earl deserves a lover is a sex lessons book. I mean, I've probably written more than one honestly, because I love them so much. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I like I said, this, this is the thing I love when I see it, but it doesn't like stick with me as being like a primary because I feel like sex lessons is often like I said, it's not like a, the plot doesn't turn on it. When I like it best when it's the answer to something. Right. I don't know how to, how to say that, right? You know what I mean? Like the characters decided they have a problem. And then or problem has like, you know, risen up like right with my boyfriend treats me this way or whatever. And I think often in my brain that turns into like, well, there's a person who's struggling with, you know, like sort of feeling good about themselves or whatever. And that plays out so many ways, not just because of how you are in bed with somebody. So yeah, I just like it. Yeah, of course. Period. It's fun. And we should do it. There's also another request for a possible episode in this list. And I love it so much that we will definitely do it. But I'm not even going to talk about it, because we'll just tee it up for another future episode, which we're always looking for. Yeah. Anyway, I think we did the job. I did. We did the job. Everyone, we love talking to you. We wish that we spent more time with you. But if you ever have questions for us, you can always ask them on face. No, we're not on Facebook. We really aren't. But I don't know why I said that. You could ask, you can always ask them on Instagram or threads or blue sky. I'm gonna on Instagram and threads, we are fated mates pod and on blue sky, we're fated mates. You can also join our Patreon at patreon.com slash fated mates. And that gives you access to the Discord where there is an Ask Jen and Sarah channel. There's also an Ask Eric channel in there. And we're Oregon classics coming your way. Yeah, I mean, who knows what you'll get in that channel. So you can always head over there and do that or shoot us, you know, I don't know, message us smoke signals, semaphore, semaphore. I don't even know what that means. It's the flag one. Oh, sure. Did you ever watch Monty Python as a kid? You're apparently not enough. Yeah, there is like, it's a whole joke on Monty Python. Anyway, I'm Sarah McLean. I am here quite literally with my friend Jen Prokop and we are fated mates. Like I said, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts every Wednesday. And all the books that we talked about today and anything else that we sort of generally talked about that has links or more information will be available to you on our website at fated mates.net. And you can just click on episodes and you'll find this episode a list of all the books and other links in show notes. And that's it. Happy April. Happy April, everyone. I hope you're off, you know, getting a quick hit of Judas McNaught, if that is what will give you joy. And if it's raining, flowers coming soon. Oh, yeah. May flowers.