Great American Dream Show with Josh Safdie & Sean Baker

Josh. I'm Josh Safdie.

And I'm Sean Baker. And I'm here to talk to Josh about the wonderful Marty supreme on the A24 podcast. It's great to do this with you, man. I love Marty so much.

0:01

Truly, truly.

0:14

I'm so happy for you and the whole team. Congrats on all the accolades so far.

0:16

You know what it means to me when. When I get your voice memos. I just. Luckily you saw the movie in person, so I got like, you know, real life.

0:22

Yeah, I've seen it three times now, actually, and it keeps revealing new things each time.

0:33

Well, more than. More than me. My crazy respect for your taste in movies as a filmmaker. You know what that means to me.

0:39

Well, yeah. And I know that we love the same stuff, we have the same sensibility, and I think most of the time. Most of the time. Most of the time. Sometimes. Sometimes we disagree. But yes, it's true. I do leave you very long and annoying audio.

0:46

I love them. It's actually like a little savior. I'll say, oh, wow, I got it. And then I'll bring back. You're the only person I do it with. You know that?

0:59

Oh, that's hilarious.

1:05

And I like giving you a little audio documentaries, too. And I'm doing as. I'm on the train sometimes.

1:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear New York behind you.

1:10

You miss it.

1:13

So I want to read a text that you actually texted me back in 2020. I think I was right off of. From what I can tell, this was October of 2020, so I was right off of Red Rocket. I think I was bemoaning something. I was. I was. I think I was talking about how hard it is to keep things small.

1:14

Yeah.

1:35

And. And we were just talking about the size of.

1:36

You just made Red Rocket.

1:40

I think so. And I was a little frustrated with. With things the way they went, even though I love the final outcome. Oh, thank you. But Simon Rex.

1:41

Unbelievable.

1:49

Another anti hero like your film.

1:51

But they're not anti heroes to you.

1:53

No, but I recognize that people see them as antiheroes. Do you see Marty as an anti hero?

1:57

I mean, I hear people say it. The concept of anti hero is so, like, negative.

2:05

I know. That's very true.

2:10

Very heroes.

2:12

You love them. They're human.

2:12

Yes, exactly.

2:13

Flaws. Okay, so I'm gonna read this to you.

2:14

Okay.

2:16

So I forgot I left you an audio text that vanished, but this is your response.

2:17

Okay.

2:21

I wish we had again. I think it had something to do with. With trying to keep under the radar you know. Cause our previous films, definitely not Marty. But, you know, I think there's been. There was documentary techniques used where contemporary movies had just. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, you wrote this. I think it's fun to swim in bigger lakes. And I think if you see the resource. If you use the resources. Right. The product can be super interesting. I'm falling more and more into maximalist territory. And when you. When you wrote that, I was like, what the hell is he talking about? But then five years later, I see Marty and I know exactly what you're talking about now. You really. This is an epic film. The scale, the scope and scale just seems really big, and it's so impressive.

2:22

Well, I think what I meant about. I definitely. What was the date on that? 21. 2020. What, like, right, like 2020. Oh, so, like, pandemics, like, still, like, raging. I had already been working on Marty. The. I think what happened was. Is, like, as you. And it's kind of similar to what was happening, I think, with the direct cinema movement. In a strange way is I started to look at life as a construct. And I started to realize, like. Particularly with those. Those movies leading up to that. Heaven knows what being, like, kind of like the most. Because I was like, a documentary, essentially.

3:14

Right, right.

3:50

And knowing that, like, life. If you look at life as, like, something that's built, there's millions of decisions that go into it. You know, the higher power, whatever it is, is creating all. Everything. Like this table, this microphone, the color of the thing, the stand itself, the decision, someone's decision to light it this way. It's all there. And I started to kind of, I think, the own. And I. So I started to become obsessive about it, in particular with. With gems, because it was this bigger movie and I was trying to still, like, steal life.

3:51

Yes.

4:24

Recreate life. So then when you start to kind of break it down, like, well, how can I create life and then access the way that I was making those movies? So, like, how can I create life to have the feeling of going inside of it and stealing the movie? Because that is, like, the urgency of, like, getting something and getting out. Yeah. And I think that that was where my head was. At lakes. I hate lakes. I don't like swimming in lakes. I like the ocean. But. But I. I don't know. When I talk to you and a few other people, I can open up about that stuff. I don't think I would, like, send that text to anybody else but you.

4:24

Oh, all right. Okay. I'm honored.

5:05

Yeah.

5:08

So but that.

5:09

Because. Because. Because, you know, like, I texted you this when I was re. Watching Prince of Broadway. When you did the restoration. You put it on film. It looks so amazing. It looks so cool. Nothing. Nothing looks like I. You know me. That's one of my favorites of yours. But it's the sneeze Bless you, motherfucker. Because it's amazing, because in that moment, you're watching, like, two real people. A guy sneezes. That's the most real you can get.

5:10

Right?

5:39

You know what I mean? And the decision for the guy to just remain, like, hard a little bit.

5:39

Oh, yeah.

5:45

He doesn't want to take a bless you. He wants. Yeah, bless you, motherfucker.

5:45

Yeah. Yeah.

5:48

And it's one of my favorite moments, and. But, like, you can only capture. And I love the jump cutting in that movie because normally I don't. And with the jump cutting, that film is, like. Is. Is really awesome conceptually. Just kind of just works really well.

5:49

And you don't do any jump cutting?

6:03

Never done a jump cut.

6:04

Never?

6:06

No. Ever? I always will, like, cut to something. And then even though, like, you know, what a, like, incredible concept that Godard invented, he's the first person to use it in narrative form. Right. In fiction. Fiction form. I think so. I think he was like, the. Or maybe popularized it.

6:06

I. I don't know.

6:25

That's a crazy concept. I'm gonna do something that, like, implies.

6:25

Right.

6:29

That there's stuff to cut out and, like, whatever, anyway.

6:30

And it is. And it's something that I. It's fallen a little out of fashion a little bit. I used it for. In one moment in. In Anora when they're outside the strip club. Because I just rolled 10 minutes.

6:32

In the beginning.

6:46

Yes.

6:48

Yeah.

6:48

I rolled 10 minutes. Full mag. And then the two of them talking, and I was like, I don't have any other coverage, so I'm gonna just jump, jump cutting to the highlights.

6:49

Yeah. But it's a great way to set up, you know, when you do something like that at the beginning of a movie, you're establishing. You're getting a lot of, like, info out there. Yeah. And goodwill, too. Like, and that was, like. Also when you. Like when I was thinking about that conceptually, is like, getting that crazy dolly shot of Marty walking through the Lower east side. The amount of, like, time.

6:58

And the first one where he's coming. Not when he's running later.

7:20

No, no, when he's walking, when he's, like, bouncing, there's that kind of. I call it slightly, like, Irish vibe. Of the score. And there's. He's walking through and walking by people and he's just like, not a wor. In his mind. Five hours late, but all those people.

7:23

Everything feels so alive.

7:38

And I was like, shooting it, like I was stealing it. We had. Of course, we had a crane and a dolly.

7:40

Oh, okay.

7:45

But the vibe of it, the energy and pushing and directing all those extras. And there's the. The woman in a white jacket. I think I went up to her and I was like, you're not cooking your husband dinner at a protest that night. So she's in her head. My ad team, they're all like, going. And we had this Ken Jacobs film, Orchard street, that was. That had just been restored. His son Aza did it. And that was like a bible for us. So we had this.

7:45

Oh, that's wonderful.

8:13

We had this real life document of what that street was like. So that was like the standard. That was. It was life. That's great. But when you do that in the beginning of a movie, you get this crazy production value and you set the stand, like time travel, and you're like, okay, I'm here in this world. The movie can go kind of anywhere because it feels that way. I wanted. I said to Jack Fisk, who designed the movie, I said to him and Adam Willis, the set deck, I was like, I want to time travel because I want to tell the story presently, as if I'm there. Because anyone who is around my great uncle or some other people who were in that scene, they tell the stories. I'm relating to them in present tense. I'm not relating to them in a period. You know what I mean?

8:14

Did you have to. Did you have to, like. See, I haven't done a period piece. I mean, my period piece was five years ago.

8:54

So, yeah, same layer of gems was 20, 2012. But it's like you. Every once in a while you go in, it's like, oh, we gotta paint out that city bike bank. You know.

9:01

Did you paint a lot of stuff out?

9:12

You know, that was crazy because I had no relationship with VFX going into the movie, outside of the sequence through the colon, right? And the gem. Excuse me.

9:14

Yeah, yeah.

9:27

Which was. It was incredible because I had to. You know, when you don't have something to base it on you, you know, you have to build it from scratch. And I. So I worked with the same. This guy, Iran Denier, who is incredible, and he thinks he, like, wrote a book about. He actually. His experience more like he did all the Wolf of Wall street effects and things like that. But. But he's like. The way he thinks is. He's like almost like a physicist, and he plays table tennis and he's a synth. He plays the. He plays piano. He's. And he loves, like, you know, new age electronic music. So it was like, a lot of. He was perfect. And he's like. I called him the evil, evil, evil scientist. Whenever he was around, I was like, oh, no, what does he want to do? This is gonna be evil. And the producer Kitagas come to me, he's like, well, I think we should paint that out over there. We can't afford to cover it. So it was a little bit of like that, right? And that's a thankless job for them because it's like, hard work that no one. You hope no one ever notices. No one's noticing. But the table tennis stuff had some visual effects in there as well. The ball, basically. But we didn't. On that shot in the Orchard shooter, there's no V effects there. We were covering. There was two buildings that were built in 2015, 2020, that Jack had to build an entire new facade for.

9:28

Oh, okay.

10:40

Like, in complete, like. And you plug them in, and then when we did that crazy chase scene, you can. He would reuse pieces and just paint them differently. He's amazing. He knew he in for Tree of Life. That tree, though, there's an oak tree that Malik was like. It was spiritual, of course, and they saw it and, like, we have to bring that tree to location. And the root ball was, like, apparently, like, 25ft and in diameter. And the quote. They got the quote. To move a tree like that and for it to survive is even crazier. I was, like, insane. I think it was like half a million dollars to move the tree. So Jack was like, I'm gonna find local people. And they, like, slowly dug up the root ball, dusted it out, and then put it on to. He found, like, a local guy to put it on flatbeds, and they moved it. And his greatest. The thing is that the best, like, the great triumph of. Is that it's still thriving, alive.

10:40

Nice. That's.

11:33

He's like that.

11:34

Yeah.

11:34

There was, like, an interview with him where he was chopping down a tree that got some invasive on it. And he says to the inmate, goes, I remember planting this tree 50 years ago. And, like, the time and stuff like that.

11:35

Did you. I mean, there's so much texture. There seems to be. You can almost smell everything on. And then also just all the Little details, especially in the. In the. In the shoe shop. In his.

11:48

In the shop, you know, when they were excavating that. That was a real. That was like one. It was on Orchard Tree. We wanted to shoot in New York, which everyone's like, it's too expensive. I was trying to tap into the soul, I think. Yeah, thank you. I mean, I. I agree. I don't like cheating. You know what I mean? I think it's, on some level you're cheating. And I. I had said to production and Jack that, like, well, we can get more days if we do this here and do that there. We could cheat this. And. And I really wanted to shoot this where these characters were from. I wanted to shoot it where they lived, right? And there was one shop on Orchard street that, you know, you get lucky with some, you know, poorly managed buildings, you know, where they. They never took a deal and they never did this. And there's probably family disputes inside of it. And you can feel that dispute in this building. And it was just like. You walk in, it's like, I don't even know where half of the clothing. Where it came from. It's like these. You know, when you see, like, proper, like the Garment district, like, there are a lot of garmentos who make clothing. Never heard of them. They make them for bigger brands. So you go in there and there's just this, like, slop, kind of like garmenta slop. But it's beautiful because it's kind of outsider. So you go in there and it's just. You can't even believe what you saw. It's just like underneath it all was the bones of this original kind of, you know, this clother clothing company. And when we excavated, we had to. We had to completely clear it out. And we have the scene in the basement where him and. I don't even know if it plays like a basement when him and Odessa, where the child. With his child is conceived.

12:00

Oh, okay.

13:40

That's in the basement. Because in the script, it actually is like a pretty long tracking shot that brings him from switching the boxes out all the way up. And I just condensed to cut out a piece of. Cut out the travel. But when we had to. Because we had to shoot down there. And then we ended up having to recreate the whole basement on a stage because we ran out of time. We had to do that twice.

13:41

We did some stage stuff.

14:01

Yeah, whole tenement. The whole tenement was on a stage. I wanted to shoot that on location because Jack is amazing. I was like, we have to Shoot that on location. I don't want to cheat it. And then we went and, like, they were like, josh, we'd have to rent out every apartment because you're. It's a tenement. There's one way up and down. And. And. And so it was. So we had to re. We had to build that. And Jack's like, trust me, you will not know when we're there.

14:02

Incredible.

14:26

But when we were excavating the basement, he sent a picture of just a decomposed rat carcass. But. Well, it's just the bones, and it was like this big, and it was like something you'd see in the Natural History Museum. And I tried to preserve it, and we threw that away. And then they found a bone.

14:27

Yeah.

14:42

That was too big. Looked like a collar.

14:44

Oh, no.

14:46

And I was like, guys, I was like, they didn't send me a picture of that. It's like, I got to report that.

14:47

Yeah.

14:53

They're like, no, no. We think it was like a dog bone or something. I was like, I don't know, man. Lower east side.

14:54

Ye. Yeah. Right.

14:59

Yeah.

15:01

When you, as a director, when you're shooting these scenes, you know, that have to, you know, time travel the audience, I'm assuming. Do you do playback? Do you watch?

15:01

I have. I say no playback because it's another job on set.

15:11

Right.

15:15

And I think it's a crutch that people like to sit at. I hate the concept of video village.

15:16

Right.

15:20

It's just a kind of a cancer on a set. And everyone. So I never. But there. There had to be one on this, particularly for the table tennis thing.

15:20

Okay.

15:28

So we were carrying them, and they were great, you know, And I never do playback. I never say, let me see.

15:28

But you are watching a monitor.

15:34

I'm watching a monitor, and I'm like. But I'm like, if the scene is here, I'm like, right there. Blew my knees out doing the movie because I would constantly throw myself into these little corners. And Ian Kincaid, my gaffer, was like. And Darius, too, is like, sit next to me on this apple box. I was like, no, no, no. I need to be right there.

15:36

Get knee pads.

15:51

Yeah. Actually, I was like, I'm going to look into getting knee pads.

15:52

Yeah. Because all in. In that mansion, all the floors were like marble.

15:56

Hard, hard floors. And I was throwing yourself, too.

16:00

Throwing my. Going down and being like, knee pads.

16:03

Did you have any pads? Did you get any?

16:06

Yeah. Amazon. Yeah. So when you're looking at the monitor, is there, like, a suspension of disbelief? Has to kick in for you as the director. Right. Do you feel that happening in the moment? Do you lose yourself and like, oh, I'm back in the moment. Seeing Marty in the 50s right now.

16:08

Well, what's funny is I would. I took it for granted.

16:25

Oh, okay.

16:28

Because I was just there treating it as if it was real. Every once in a while, I would say something like. Like Adam and Jack. The way they talk about real life is they'll. They won't say, that's so 52. They would say, that's so period.

16:29

Okay. Yeah.

16:44

They were like, oh, that's so period. They show me something like how period this is. And I don't know if that's, like, lingo for people who do period pieces, how they seek, but it. To me, it meant it had. It took on a different meaning. It was like this timeless thing in front of us. It has a timeless quality as an aura. Like, look at that. Look. It's so period. And the way they said that, I don't know. I always really. It was very spiritual to me. The art department is, especially on a film where you're going back in time. And with Miyako, her costuming, it is. I mean, she would go and do crazy thrifting and pulling, and then. So her costume department actually had thousands of pieces, and she didn't use any of them. But it was more for me and her to go and look. And characters in the movie, Tyler, to just go and look, and then you build. So it's like, oh, this piece looks really nice. Let's build a piece like this. And so all of it is kind of like, we're all. And, you know, obviously everyone's inspiring each other, but I think Erickson is the production designer on McCabe and Mrs. Miller.

16:45

Okay.

17:48

I know he's Jack's like, yes. Hero, and he. I'm became Mrs. Miller. Movie that. I know you hate the fake snow in the.

17:49

There was a. You know, it was probably the first time anyone was doing optical.

18:00

Sure, sure.

18:03

And it doesn't exactly hold up in the beginning.

18:04

Well, when you see these restorations, maybe when you see, like, an organ restoration.

18:07

Yeah, maybe. I wish. I just so, you know, just.

18:10

I've never seen the restoration. I've only seen the old dvd.

18:13

Well, it's a wonderful restoration, I'm sure.

18:17

I mean, I remember reading a story that. That Warren Beatty, when he saw that movie, like, oh, man. Was so psyched to show it to him, and he was like. He's like, what'd you think? He goes, I Couldn't fucking hear one word that I said. What did you do to the movie?

18:19

Yeah.

18:33

And he's like, isn't that amazing? And Warren Baby's like, no, it's not amazing at all. But. Because it was conceptual but. But the production designer would go into town and go to the bars and get the drunks who were there and bring them to the set or the people who built the sets. He'd put them in the scenes. So those. That's why they feel so alive. And I would start to. I went nuts casting a lot of these extras.

18:33

Yeah.

18:59

And faces. So I would populate. And Jack felt like I built these sets, but they're not alive until. Josh, you put these people in them. Yeah. And that was when I would start to. That's when I. The suspension disbelief really comes alive to me is when I'm like the bowling alley. When you just have all these people that you. That have these anachronistic to. No non timeless faces. Not anachronistic. And they're just in perfect costume with perfect hair. K. Georgia, my hair person. I gave her carte blanche. I was like, if the hair isn't perfect or right, get rid of them. So then they had extras. People like, hey, Kay is releasing these three extras. Like good, you know. And I was like, send me a picture. She's like, she was right. Because she was looking at the faces only.

18:59

My God, what you and Jennifer found. I mean every scene is just populated with just incredibly unique looking beautiful people.

19:38

Yeah, beautiful people.

19:48

Yeah.

19:49

Because Jen's like a humanist and I'm lucky. She's like. She's a documentarian. Her movie Billy the Kid is a testament to amazing movie. That was how I met her. I was playing pool and I was on a roll. I was feeling sharkish, you know, I was. If I can lock in and focus. My problem is focus sometime I can. I believe. When I was a kid I was like, if I focus on something, I can do anything. That was in my mind. My dad instilled that into me. But so I was playing pool and she came up to me. She tried to like cast me. She was doing a lot of. Oh, is that unusual casting? Yeah, unusual casting for fashion spreads.

19:49

Oh, okay.

20:27

And then she. I think the first like time she was. And then like, I think maybe Spike Jones reached out to her to find the kid and where the Wild Things Are. She came up to me to be like, hey, you know, good pays really good money. You know, you should. And I was like, I don't know.

20:28

I'm not.

20:42

I don't want to do that. Even though I was acting in my early stuff. Yeah. Like, I don't want to do it just for me. I'm trying to learn for myself. I don't want to do it for someone else.

20:43

Yeah.

20:50

And so I met her that way. And then I went to see Billy the Kid and I cried watching that film. And I went up to her and I was like, what a beautiful movie. So what you're seeing in the film is like, I'm meeting people on the street. I'm sending them to Jen. She's finding people on the street herself. She has a team of people, people who go into the real world. She's looking at real, you know, the fabric of SAG and real people. And she looks at actors as real people and as you should. And sometimes they're famous and they, you know, they make a studio happy and sometimes they're someone who's just been working for a long time and no one's giving them kind of their due. And so she's looking at everyone the same way. But what's happening with these, some of these first timers and you know, as you can feel it in your movies is that they. And it's part of the job as a director is instilling a certain sort of confidence and ease. Like you have the agency to do whatever you want and that because whatever you decide to do is great because you're deciding to do it on some level. And then, you know, you steer them. And I don't like the word manipulate, but you push them into areas so that they can do their thing. And. But so Jen's style is she'll like do an interview with these, with these people again, it doesn't matter if they're a known person or unknown person. And she'll send the 20 minute interview. And her interviews are amazing. There's like deep dive spiritual. And then you learn something from them. And then you go back, it's like, oh, I want to put this piece into the character. So you're rewriting.

20:50

Sometimes you use a piece of there.

22:19

Oh, yeah. And then they see that and they're like, wow, you saw something in me.

22:21

Yeah, yeah.

22:24

And then, then she does. I consider it's like acting school. So then in her little windowless room, I'll give a character description and a scenario. And I was, I want to see how these people improvise. And then she'll work with them and then we'll do it again. And then you introduce dialogue and see how they can do it with structured scenes.

22:24

Yes. Because you don't have much improv in this film.

22:43

In this one. No. Weird. I mean, I would go. I was so afraid of the script.

22:45

Yeah.

22:50

Even though we spent six years on it. I'm so afraid of it, this thing. You know what I mean? And I don't know. Do you feel that way?

22:51

I do. I. Sometimes it just feels like it might be too structured. It might be too. Or I've been living with it too long and it no longer feels fresh and I want to mix it up on set. And so therefore I just say, like, we'll do a couple takes with what I've written and then if we feel so inspired to take it in another place. Using this as a launching pad. Yeah. And that's what I've been doing for the last few films because I've had to flesh out my screenplays to full on screenplays. Whereas the film you mentioned earlier, Prince of Broadway. Oh my God, that was like a treatment. And us showing up every day just being like, let's see what happens. It's hard to do it on bigger budgets. And also it's impossible to do what you did, which is, you know, a period piece and obviously very structured. And.

22:58

Yeah, you know, I. I can totally. For a long time I was. I remember I wrote a screenplay and I remember like this one. Just like one group of people were who I met through this strange woman. And she was like. It was this movie that ended up turning into Daddy Longings, but it was a structured script. It was like about this kind of the same. And that morphed into Daddy Long Legs in some way. It's about like the same family going to a beach and they. The whatever. The kid gets lost on the beach and. And it's a crazy movie, but I was. Because I couldn't get that made. And I remember I was sitting there within this, like this. Like they were lawyers, the people who were going to give us the money. We were asking for like 100 grand. And we read they were like, we're going to bring in someone who knows the industry. So they brought in like, I don't remember some. An actress that I didn't recognize from Footloose. Like a. I think I had like a small part in Footloose.

23:48

She was one of the feet in the opening credits. Yeah.

24:49

So I was like. I was like. They were like, this is. She's like, oh, pleasure to meet you.

24:51

Yeah.

24:56

And then we read the whole script in this conference room. And I remember they said well, can you include 911 in it somehow? This movie takes place on a beach. What are you talking about? Well, like. Well, this movie feels very nostalgic, and it would be interesting to kind of at least evoke the Twin Towers. And I was like, but it doesn't take place in 2000. And. Yeah, whatever. 1990s or 2000.

24:56

Yeah.

25:21

Thinking. But it would be good for us.

25:21

Yes.

25:23

And we jokingly, like, pitch the most ridiculous thing. And they were like, that's a great idea. I want to see what it was.

25:23

But sometimes you have to appease.

25:30

But so. But my point is, like, I never wanted to. I got afraid of the script, and then I just wrote treatments, and Daddy Long legs was just 40 pages of just prose. And I was like, I'll get these kids to Ronnie to say the words as he wants to say. Then there was some dialogue, but it was all ideas.

25:32

Yeah.

25:48

And. And on this. And I'm sure you. I mean, look, nor is very structured.

25:49

And.

25:55

And. And that's. And I think that you. I think we've discussed about other films and other filmmakers this feeling of maybe it's. I don't know, where maybe you, like, get really into, I don't know, these. These realist films that you start to have this kind of thirst for story and, you know, the story becomes, I don't know, Paramount.

25:57

So you mean, like, starting off early in your career.

26:25

Yeah. Where you just like to.

26:28

I just want to.

26:30

One century. Yeah. You have an idea of a movie.

26:31

Right.

26:33

And you have a very general structure.

26:33

And the goal is more about maybe craft and trying to, like, recreate reality. And then as we've moved on.

26:36

Yeah.

26:44

We actually have been. Our stories have been more complicated. More complicated. A little more. A little more traditional in a way.

26:44

People hate that.

26:51

Middle and end.

26:52

Maybe people hate that, but I. I think they're. I. I like to see ideas. Yeah.

26:53

We like stories.

26:59

Yes. We like stories. Exactly. Yes. 100%.

27:00

The caveman around the fire. Hearing a beginning.

27:03

Do you talk? Do you tell or. Or do you orate the story to somebody before you?

27:06

Oh, oh, yeah.

27:11

It's helpful because you know immediately when someone's like, yeah, where's this going?

27:11

I'm just about. I mean, I'm. I'm about to get into that right now because I'm. I have it all here. And it's about to be vomited out on onto.

27:15

Who do you do that with?

27:23

Samantha and Alex. Coco.

27:24

Amazing.

27:26

My two fellow producers. And it's. It's about me going, guys, come over, sit Down. I'm going to take two edibles and I'm going to.

27:27

Just amazing. I know that about you. I don't know how many people know about you. Were you on edibles at the Oscars?

27:36

I time it so that.

27:45

So that you're coming down.

27:47

So that I'm not too high up on stage.

27:48

I can't. Yeah, yeah.

27:51

It's always timed perfectly so that it's really hitting just as I'm exiting.

27:54

I love that. That sounds like such a nightmare for me. I am. When I can't do it anymore. And I used to smoke weed. It was a punishment. Oh, wow. I would sit. I would do it. I'd be alone. If I have an interaction with someone, oh, my God, that's bad news. And I would criticize myself and I'd write them down and I'm. These nasty things about myself. And then I would. It was horrible. That's a horrible experience. But I thought that I needed it to understand, you know, ideas and myself. And then I'd be sober and I'd come to. And I'd read these things.

27:58

Okay.

28:32

That's through the lens of this. So I admire that you could. Because these things are. I mean, it's amazing that you're able to. You were able to.

28:33

Well, I think I've become. It was actually something I. I avoided because I had a bad experience making a student film once. Oh, really? I was too high and like, I'm never doing that again. And to show you the truth, I don't. When I'm directing.

28:40

No way it could be lucid.

28:52

No, no, no. But I do use it in writing and in post. And I edit high.

28:54

Wow.

28:59

And. And maybe I shouldn't be in. We can delete that 100, Nora. I even give in. It was both Red Rocket and Enora that I edited. Literally 100. I don't think I edited.

28:59

We'll keep doing it.

29:11

And in the end credits, I. You think the dispensary. Dispensary. But anyway, I love that. But actually, let me. That brings us to editing. You co edit with Ronnie.

29:12

That's right. And it's the first time I've edited since my early films. Oh, yeah. And I. And I. Because I was, you know, I've. I'm so involved in the edit. Yeah. And what I was. Is for a long time, I would get. I have anxiety. Like, bad anxiety. And the. The process of editing is anxiety inducing in the sense that, like, okay, I know this. I want to do this. I know these pieces, but it's the, it's. It's an every time I'm in the micro of the making the specific cut. Yeah, I'm fine. It's. Then when I have them all and I have to. Just having a timeline where you have to move, make a cut and you have to like make sure you get all that. I know. It's such a simple thing. That just feeling of moving a timeline. It could be just a four minute scene gives me so much anxiety.

29:26

Oh yeah.

30:12

That I can't, I couldn't do it. So I had to get over that.

30:13

And imagine doing that on a scene.

30:16

Steam.

30:17

Beck.

30:18

Yeah. Oh my God. I cut. You cut probably on that. When you lose one frame and you're in the bin and you're like, where's that one frame? I made the wrong cut. So that kind of trains you to be a little bit more orthodox and strict with the cutting. So I have that background a little bit. Yeah.

30:18

That's the greatest thing about digital revolution, by the way, is what it did for post. Oh my God. That's, in my opinion, the greatest thing about digital. So do you and Ronnie, how do you split it up? And are either one of you editing during production?

30:32

No, no, no, no, no. During. So no, not even a little bit.

30:45

Okay.

30:47

So writing is the scariest part because it could be go on forever, of course, if you go on forever. And the idea.

30:48

The hardest part.

30:53

It's the hardest part. 100 people don't like to really say that, which is not fair to the writers. It's the hardest part. It's the ideas, it's the bedrock, it's the foundation. The actual hardest part is direction. But because it's just war and the world doesn't want your movie to exist and there's a million problems. There's time management, it's performances. So you have to like constantly be blind to different parts of yourself so that this stress doesn't exist for this person. And then you're in this space and you're with life. All of a sudden you're doing the takes, but it's finite. It's over. In 46 days it's over. You know, with writing you could go on forever. Who knows when an idea will come? And then the edit, you have this. It's done. So. And when we're, when we're shooting, I don't have time to watch dailies. I don't have time to watch dailies, let alone edit. I know I had a editing team like, who were looking at stuff just.

30:54

To make sure everything's in focus.

31:45

Yeah, exactly. Which there was a lot of focus problems on this shooting film. Shooting film with these old lenses, low light scenarios. Darius. Prince of Darkness, he's shooting things and I'm. No marks. You know what I mean? So I'm letting people. And sometimes he'll be like, josh, the actor has to go right here. I've lit for this area. I was like, we'll see what they do.

31:47

Yeah.

32:04

And he's like, no, just tell them to go here. I was like, can't do that, Darius. Timmy, with some, like, you know, some of the. More like veteran actors, they can do it. But even like the veteran actors, you don't put narcs down. You're encouraging this freedom. Like you're saying earlier, you have this. These takes. You do them that are kind of tied to the script. Then you. Then you go into these unknown territories, these uncharted territories, and you kind of find your way back to the script a little bit. Looking for these feeling. This feeling. And you end up using pieces of just improvisation in some way or improvisation emotionally. You know what I mean? Doing little things, moving different places. But I would say, Darius, if they don't hit that light pool, and there may be over here, it's almost more interesting because there's an imperfection there. And like, someone might not land in a pool of light. They might be slightly under lit and drives Arya's crazy. But he started to understand, like, okay. Yet people became not just things you push around. They became these real life things, which is like a documentary in some way. But, you know, that's why I'm like. Even I remember on Heaven Knows what, I like stretched out the credits because I wanted to look like it was like a real production. But in the end, it was like five people making a documentary. So that's. I try to bring that feeling a little bit to this, but it's going back to the editing, the dailies. Like, I remember reading these stories about Altman, these daily watching parties.

32:04

Yeah.

33:22

Wow. How does he have the time to do that? But it was beautiful because I imagine it would be. I do that in prep. You get all the crew members, all the department heads together, and you watch all the camera tests and things like that. And I'm playing music and I'm putting. Creating the vibe. And also the 80s music was part of that from the very beginning.

33:23

Really.

33:40

All of those tracks written into the script. Yeah, you can tell.

33:41

You can tell because it feels so deliberately cut to the music as well. It seems like you've even Storyboarded.

33:44

I don't know if you storyboard like 25% of the movie. Oh, yeah.

33:53

Interesting.

33:56

But because you have to for some of these bigger set pieces, like the stunts, people need to know the effects, people need to know a shot, list like crazy the film. And what's crazy is I ask for statistics at the end of movie from the camera department. So I like, know my own stats and be like, yeah. How many takes do I do?

33:56

How much film do I shoot on the setups too?

34:12

Like on the setups, how much do.

34:14

I shoot on the wide, how much do I shoot? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

34:15

I mean, I. I usually shoot the wides kind of to end after all the close ups. Right. Which drives the gaffers and all them crazy because the wide is always lit differently.

34:18

Yeah.

34:27

Normally you go in, I like to establish what they're doing on close up and then you move out.

34:28

Yeah.

34:34

Do you do that?

34:35

I mix it up. It really depends on the scene. And sometimes I start with.

34:36

Yeah, it's not a silence.

34:43

Yeah. I try not to actually stick to the same thing every time.

34:44

It's interesting though, because people don't realize that there's a. That's the order of which you're shooting a scene is for the actors.

34:49

Yes.

34:57

You know what I mean? It's the beginning of the direction. We're gonna start here and then we're gonna go there. And that's why, you know, if you let an AD decide what you're doing, we're gonna do this first, do that first, and all of a sudden you're just being. This is all due respect to the AD department, but that's not their job.

34:58

Right.

35:13

You know what I mean? And you're right. So it's, it's. It is tailored to each scene and two performers and. And then you have like, who do you like when you known actors sometimes, like, who wants to get shot first? And things like that. So you have to play that game.

35:13

Yeah. And sometimes something happens and you have to go back.

35:27

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

35:30

If you don't. Oh, there have been a few times where I'm just like, why didn't I just turn, you know, spin the camera and take that extra 20 minutes and shoot additional coverage.

35:31

Well, I'll bring in a second camera for that.

35:41

Oh, okay.

35:43

I'll just bring a second camera.

35:44

Okay. So you had, you had multiple cameras shooting and. Yeah. Okay.

35:46

And I would have that for allowing the director, the actors. Like, for example, the scene between Kevin and Timmy in the Paris scene. That was the Second day of shooting, and I really didn't want to do that. There's a huge scene in the middle of the movie. Unfortunately, it has lots of narrative. Information. Information in it. And those are the hardest scenes to shoot, just from a. From a directing standpoint, because you're just like. They have to say information that's important to the movie, and you feel bogged down by that sometimes. But I had two cameras at once, and if that drives Darius crazy. And I never try to do that where you're doing this. Yes, the. I said. I told Darius I'll never do it. If the shots are compromised and the subjectivity is not there, we're able to frame it up, use long enough lenses and things like that, which I like anyway.

35:49

So it's like 75 or 360. 360.

36:31

You're far away.

36:35

Wait, what scene was the 360?

36:36

I've used 360 a lot. That's like the most beautiful jewel C series Panavision lens. Yeah. You know what? I discovered that lens because it was used on Rossi's Moment of Truth, the bullfighting. Beautiful bull fighting, which was a hybrid film as well.

36:38

Right.

36:54

On the bull stuff, he used a 360, but it was, I think, spherical. So it was. But it was. No, I think it was.

36:54

Wow. He was holding wonderful focus on all that stuff.

37:02

I mean, you have like daylight, so it was like, why a pretty high. It was like probably F16 or whatever.

37:05

And you. You didn't do much handheld in this film. I mean, every time we were.

37:11

Every time we were in the tenement. Every time is handheld.

37:15

Oh, okay.

37:17

But that was like a rule.

37:18

It was actually really steady handheld.

37:19

Yes. Like Colin Anderson, my camera operator who does all of PTA's films.

37:21

Yeah.

37:27

And like a lot of Bob. Bob Richardson movies. He's like a human Sticks human. I mean, he's the greatest Steadicam operator ever. He's like a Dolly. It's unbelievable. And I had a lot of Steadicam in this. And I told him, I begged him. I tried to. I begged him to do the movie. And he. Amazing. Your operator becomes. You know, that's your eyes. You know what I mean? And Darius operated once or twice on the film, but he. He's more of a lighting cameraman. Darius is expressing himself through light in a very poetic way and. And was doing period lighting in a way like.

37:28

Yeah.

38:03

The color temperatures and whatnot.

38:03

Probably a lot of tungsten.

38:05

Yes, they brought a lot of tungsten.

38:06

Yeah.

38:08

You know, modern day. There's a difference. There's definitely modern day lighting. They would pull in those. Those sky panels or something, right? Yeah, yeah, they use those. And they would key in. They would. They would like, use more Kelvin as their reference. They would test. Ian would test the Kelvin of like a period light and then try to match it on these sky panels and stuff.

38:08

It's just gorgeous. I mean, it really is.

38:30

That's amazing.

38:32

And did. Were you. You told me that maybe there were some lenses that were actually created for them.

38:33

Rehoused, so.

38:39

Rehoused.

38:39

My wife was a producer on the movie. I was. There's a movie that's not very good called. I think it's called A Woman's World. And it was the. One of the first anamorphic pictures made.

38:40

Really?

38:53

Okay. There's the rope. The rope, not rope.

38:54

Right.

38:57

And there was this film, A Woman's World, I'm pretty sure it was called. And Lauren Bacalls in it. And Beautiful. And it. And it's. It's not a great movie. But there's anamorphic footage. She found it because we were looking for footage of anamorphic footage, in particular of New York City in the time period. Because beginning I was thinking I was gonna mix kind of real footage in with the film.

38:58

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

39:26

And she found this movie that was one year after our period. Oh. And it was all shot in New York. So I was like, I want the dailies.

39:27

Yeah.

39:34

So we went and the studio. Fox kept all that. So we found the dailies. Because I want to do this driving shot where I wanted to create projection of the real city using anamorphic footage. And again, that. That's conceptually cool, but we didn't end up doing it. But what I saw was I was like, what are these lenses? Period lenses with anamorphic. So Fox bought Bausch and Loam and created these lenses called CinemaScopes.

39:34

Yeah.

40:01

And there are two sets in the world and we found TCS in New York. Do you know Oliver and TCS in New York?

40:01

I do, yeah.

40:09

He's amazing. And he's like a lens hunter. He helped me find this NASA vivitar lens that opened up to 0.8. Amazing. I didn't. I had it on set. It's spherical.

40:10

Yeah.

40:20

Yeah.

40:20

I was gonna say these old lenses probably didn't open up past four.

40:21

I think Kubrick had one for Barry Lyndon, something like that.

40:24

Yeah.

40:28

But they're NASA. They're designed for outer space where no light. So I found them with Oliver. They were, I think, in Sweden, but they were old, so he rehoused them and we brought them. We started testing them. And they were beasts. They were like this big and they weighed like 80 pounds. And we used them a little bit. They had a lot of technical problems, so we didn't use very much. But they're in the movie here and there. There was a lot of stuff on Orchard street that we cut that was all shot exclusively with them.

40:28

And it seems like you had. It seems like you always have a kind of a loose head on the. Oh, yeah, you're locked down.

40:56

Yes.

41:02

You're on sticks.

41:02

Always.

41:03

But it's always loose.

41:03

Absolutely. I always tell. Do not ever lock that off every once in a while, because I just want to be able to be where the camera could go and give Timmy the freedom. Give all the actors the freedom.

41:05

Yeah.

41:14

Sometimes they go off the set.

41:15

Yeah. But it feels. It keeps it alive without going full handheld. It keeps it alive. There's an energy there.

41:16

But the rule definitely was every time we were in the tenement, we were handheld.

41:22

So interesting. How did Kevin o' Leary come to the project?

41:27

So I. We wrote. Ron and I wrote this character because he's great.

41:31

I love him, by the way.

41:35

He's a corporate colonialist, or the first of its kind. Kind of post war carpenter bagger. Eternal power, you know what I mean? Scary, timeless power that's been around for as much as long as capitalism has been around. So I was looking at actors. I met with a few. They just were never gonna bring what was needed. You know, again, I'm chasing life. And so then I went back to the drawing board and I started. I pulled up forbes top, like 50 richest people in the world. And I just went through each one. And then you watch interviews with them and you know, they don't have it. They're not cinematic. They don't have. They're not great looking, some of them. And then I was like, okay, let me think of entertain, entertaining businessmen. And there's a lot of them. And I started going through. And naturally I got to the great American Dream show, Shark Tank. And Ronnie and I were talking a lot about this character as we wrote it. So I call Ronnie and I was like, what about Shark Tank? Cuban equipment goes, Mr. Wonderful. He's. I was like, oh, my God, yes, Mr. Wonder. He goes, that's the only guy we can use off that show because he is an asshole. He's a known asshole. He has. He anchors the show. And, you know, I've watched a lot of Shark Tank. Ronnie's watched probably every episode of Shark Tank.

41:36

Okay.

42:48

He'll hit me up and be like, you got to watch this one. But I love the show. What I like is I like the portraiture of the people who come on. I love business. I like watching people make deals and. And looking up what the businesses go on to do. So I met with him and, like, these people like this a lot. They have no real. A lot of money. He has no reason. He'll gonna lose money making this.

42:48

Yes.

43:08

There's no reason for him to do it. Right. So I went on to a zoom with him, and I had to pitch him. And it was frightening because it was. I was on Shark Tank.

43:09

You were basically doing.

43:18

I was on Shark Tank. And I was at a moment like, he. He said something about uncut gems that was illuminating because he looks at life like product.

43:19

Oh, yeah.

43:27

And he saw that. He loved. He's an artist, though. He started off as an artist. He edits his own material. He has beautiful cameras that he likes. He loves lenses. He plays the guitar. Very unique, interesting person.

43:28

Okay.

43:41

In unique point of view on life.

43:42

Yeah.

43:43

And I just knew the second I was talking to him, I said to Ryan, it's like he agreed. He was like, I really like this. What's next? Immediately.

43:44

Yeah.

43:50

I was like, well, next is we meet and we go through the script and.

43:50

Wait, what was. What was. What did he have to say about Uncut?

43:54

He said things don't exist for everybody. And you had a thing, basically. Like, there was a thing there. And he was speaking. The way he used the word thing was just. Was conceptual. And I was like, oh, wow. It was. It was.

43:56

So he's talking about, like, the value of the.

44:13

Yeah, just, like, not just the fact that, you know, he obviously. Obviously, it connected with audiences. So maybe he's talking about that on a pure business level.

44:15

Yeah.

44:22

But he was also talking about, for him, conceptually, it was this thing. It was like a complete product without being cruel about it. And he loved it, and he loved how dark it was. He wishes Marty was much darker. He wanted a up ending for the movie. He kept pushing it. He wanted Rachel to die. Oh, no. And I was like, what's wrong with you? This is why you are who you are, man. What's wrong with you? What is wrong? Something is wrong with it.

44:22

Well, he probably wanted to. You know, he. He liked Uncut.

44:48

Well, he. Yeah, he just, like, wanted Marty. He was so the character. He didn't like that he got dueled. He didn't like that he lost the duel. And he wanted Marty to suffer. So. So then I was like, next step is. Is, you know, we meet, we go through the scenes. I want to hear your voice. I want to adapt it, see if it works. You know, he's like, well, I'm not coming to New York. I was like, well, I don't want to do this over zoom. He's like, I'll fly you. I'll fly you and Ronnie and to wherever I am. So he put us on a tiny little plane. It was frightening. And then we went and we met with him over the course of a day. He had the script in his living room, and he had some house guests who had read it twice already and who was like a probably businessman or something. And that guy loved it and Kevin loved the script. And then when I met with him, he came up with that vampire line. He came up with it because we were meeting with him and we were trying to figure out how would Kevin. Oh, o' Leary react to this kid saying to him that money doesn't matter to him. There are other things that are more important. This is fate in front of him. And he is. I would never do anything that could ever implicate me in any other way. So I would use the dark arts. And I was like, oh, man. Like, how? Yeah, he just said, like, I would look to him. I'd say, marty, I was born in 1601. I'm a vampire. I look at Ronnie and we're like, oh, yeah.

44:50

I actually.

46:04

What a line.

46:05

I've been seeing stuff online and people have been seeing this film as a vampire film. I don't know if that was.

46:06

I had an idea.

46:12

Yeah.

46:14

At one point. Which is. Kind of speaks to the music in the film. The music in the movie is this. Is this built in feeling of. First of all, the timelessness of what anachronism does. The past haunting the future, the future hunting the past. Ontology. But the movie originally, you saw his life go past.

46:15

Yeah.

46:34

From having the baby all the way up to 87 at a tears for Fears concert. Oh, okay. With his granddaughter.

46:35

So that was the original draft. The first draft.

46:41

Yeah.

46:43

And you saw everything where the 80s music came from.

46:44

Yeah. And you saw. Well, there was. I actually had the idea before. I had that idea. The idea from the very beginning. I saw. I wanted to see what the. What this world looked like in 1949. And I was just. I was listening to Peter Gabriel's I have the Touch. The Rush Hour.

46:46

Yeah.

47:01

I like the Rush.

47:02

Yeah.

47:03

Pushing other people. I like it all so much. And it just felt right.

47:03

Yeah.

47:07

And I was also, like, kind of allergic to the feeling of a period piece, the nostalgia of it.

47:07

So you want to contaminate it a little.

47:12

Yeah, exactly.

47:13

Yeah.

47:14

And also, the 80s were very interesting time. The beginning of postmodernism. They were revisiting the opulence and prosperity of the 50s. Culture was back to the future was literally the 80s going back to the 50s.

47:14

Oh, you're right.

47:26

You're right. So that was where it started. And then you start building to it. I'm like, oh, this could tie it all together. But you saw him. I can't. I'm saying this. You would see him go through. He comes in as you imagine. He's an amazing salesman. He turns that shop into the most successful shop on Orchard Street. He changes it to Marty's Mouser Shoes. Marty Mouser Shoes. Franchises. Yeah, franchises again. Leaves New York state, comes very rich man. All the metrics of success are there. His family grows. He leaves the city, has this beautiful house, and it ends with him at a concert, which is very little. His granddaughter. They're great seats up front. And he's watching it, and he's thinking about everybody wants to rule the world and youth and what does it mean? And he has the success, but he's not doing the thing that he believed he was born on planet to do. He has all this great stuff around. He has these great things around him.

47:26

Interesting.

48:15

And you're on his eyes. We built the prosthetics for Timmy and everything, and Mr. Wonderful shows up behind him and takes a bite out of his neck. And that was the last. And he hasn't aged.

48:16

Wow. Okay.

48:28

And I remember age 24 and everyone were like, this is a mistake. Right?

48:29

Yeah. Oh, my God.

48:32

You might think controlling us.

48:34

No, I, I, I like that idea a lot, but I'm obviously very happy with what you did. And I love the structure now of, like, concept, you know, conception, birth. And I don't think I've seen that before.

48:36

Yeah.

48:48

Which is, which is crazy.

48:48

I feel like I've seen it before, but. Yeah.

48:51

And one last thing. Odessa.

48:53

Yeah.

48:54

She is incredible. Like, really great. When, when, when I, in the beginning. Re watching. I've seen the film three times. So the second and third time, I'm just really appreciating that opening scene because I didn't, I didn't pick up on how blatantly they're lying and, like, pretending not to know each other. But it's so obvious in the second and third viewing.

48:55

It's like that Was her first. You schedule, as you know, also in schedule a movie, you want the first scene that they shoot to have importance. With Gwyneth, the first thing we shot with her. With her return to the stage. Yeah. With Odessa, she was doing a horror film. So I had. The first thing we're gonna do is her first scene in the movie. And I was really. I kept saying, I don't believe it. I don't believe. Believe it. I don't buy it. The Hustle's not working. The Hustle's not working. And I was like, the scene is not you doing the Hustle. The scene is, you forgot your shoes.

49:17

Yes.

49:45

And the scene is, you want to look at them and you want to find these shoes.

49:46

Yeah.

49:50

So once she realized, like, oh, that's the scene. The scene isn't me playing. The scene is this, then she locked in, and she was so good. And my metric was all the extras, because there's all these people I put into the scene, real people. I know this. This guy Mordecai Rubenstein, this guy Morty, who's, like, obsessed with fashion. He knows 40s, 50s fashion. So he was a great salesman. He is a great salesman selling shoes. All these people are in the thing. The store is super alive.

49:51

Yes.

50:16

Screwed me a little bit with sound. And I would ask Morty, I was like, what do you think's going on in the scene? He goes, it's the beginning of a romance. I was like, perfect. You know, once you heard that, you're like, oh, they're. It's working. Yes. So none of the extras had any idea, really, that they knew each other.

50:17

Right.

50:31

So that was kind of the barometers, like, did they buy it? So I'm happy that. Yeah.

50:32

And then. And then when he returns eight months later and he sees her and they have that moment where he's saying, like, does Desira pull out? And she goes, you really want me to answer that question? And starts to tear up. That was the moment where I'm just like, odessa's a star. Like, she's a star.

50:36

She was so prepared and so great. Jen was. The second she read it, she's like, this is the actor. Yeah.

50:53

Yeah. I'm so. I'm so happy for her. Your entire.

50:57

Yeah.

51:01

Ensemble cast. You can't have a weak link. You don't have a weak link.

51:01

There's not one person ruins.

51:04

No, no. Yes. That's very true. That's very true. Okay, well, honestly, I wish I could.

51:05

Ask you more questions. I know this was structured as talking about.

51:12

We're talking about Marty, and.

51:16

But I, you know, love you and love all of you, your work, so.

51:17

Oh, well.

51:21

And I feel kinship.

51:21

Yeah.

51:22

That's why when you responded to this movie, I believe this is a small film, my producer came up to me was, it's. You're, like, making, like, a $50,000 movie.

51:23

Yes.

51:31

Wow. Really? He goes, yeah, yeah. And I was like, I'm trying to steal this movie. Well, so that's why, when you saw it, I'm happy that. That. That. That resonated with you. I hope you make a period film to see how you do it.

51:31

Yeah. I wonder how far I'll go back. I don't know if I will go to the 50s, maybe.

51:42

The research part is hard. The research part is hard. So you go back to the 80s?

51:46

Yes. Yeah. Because I live that. But. But I just find Marty to be so inspiring because, you know, again, I see all of your trademarks. I see all. I see your signature all over it. But it's so different from your other stuff in terms of what you. It's so structured. It's so controlled you, but you have all that energy, all the spontaneity, all of the everything that makes it just feel like you're capturing real life. But I know you didn't capture it for. I mean, every moment of this had to be calculated. So I find that so impressive, and I just want to really commend you and your entire team on it.

51:50

Means a lot from you.

52:25

Yeah. Awesome, man.

52:26

Thank you.

52:27

Good luck with everything.

52:28