How to Act in an Audition w/Matt & Oren - Just Shoot It 525

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Hey. Welcome to the 525th episode of Just Shoot It, a podcast about filmmaking, screenwriting and directing. This episode is brought to you by patrons Cleve Brown and Micah Taylor. I'm Matt Enlow.

1:18

And I'm Warren Kaplan. And today we are doing the actor primer. We are doing an episode where we are just talking about our thoughts as directors, about actors, about casting tapes, about callbacks, about being on set, and about a couple things maybe we should do after the shoot, if you want. And we just thought, you know, this kind of came off the heels of Tony Gapastioni and I talking about how it would be funny to make like an episode for each role on set so you can just send that person that does that role this episode before you work with them.

1:27

Primer. Like if you're a young actor and you're not sure what directors are looking for or, you know, you're unsure of what you should do on set. This is a nice little primer. You know, it jogs your memory if you already know it or maybe it's your introduction into what it's like to shoot a movie or TV show or commercial.

2:00

Yeah, I'd say I. This is a guesstimate. I don't know, Matt, if you think it's accurate, but I thought between the two of us, we've definitely worked with hundreds of casts members. That's like beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't know if we've hit a thousand combined, but I do know that we've hit a thousand days on set.

2:18

Sure.

2:34

That's accurate. Averaging like 20 days a year at least, right?

2:35

Yeah, definitely. Absolutely.

2:39

That's like 400 days. So 800 between the two of us. And then plus you did some web series, features, whatever. All those things that are like 15 day shoots.

2:40

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

2:49

So we've all. We've both been on other people's sets as well, not just our own.

2:51

That is wild to think about. A thousand days between the two of us does sound like a lot.

2:54

Yeah. And. And our. And our wives are actors too, so I do think we get. We've. Have. We probably both put hundreds of auditions on tape for our wives. We've seen easily thousands. I mean, I'll see 350 for one, you know, job easy. And we've heard stories from so many people that I'd say were not the authority on acting on set, but we are close to the authority on acting on our own sets.

3:00

Yeah, maybe. I think at least we know a thing or two. Also, I'm an acting teacher, ironically enough. So there's that.

3:26

And I'm an acting teacher sub.

3:33

That's right. One time I teach at the Lee Strasberg Institute and I won the Oscar pool again, you versus the students. No, no. But, you know, I think it's anyone who wants to enter.

3:35

But did you get the short films right?

3:47

I don't remember if I got the short films right. I think honestly it was pretty close this year. Sometimes it's like a little bit more of a clean sweep because I'm not voting my heart. I'm voting for what I think is going to win.

3:49

You want to win.

4:01

But specifically, I took a flyer on Sinner's cinematography and here's the reason why. Actually, this is the insight that I was like, oh, maybe this is a competitive edge. I don't know if it's true for one battle after another, but I know historically PT Anderson stopped hiring a DP and kind of thought of it more as like a collective. Like, he worked really closely with his operator and his Gap gaffer and his grip, and they all kind of like did it together to make it work kind of the way a cinematographer does. But there wasn't us explicit cinematographer for the last few movies. And I thought people would hold it against him. Whereas like you know, you're specifically voting for ADP with Sinners. And I thought if everything else is even that would be the thing that would, you know.

4:02

Yeah. I mean I. I don't know that one battle after another. I loved it but I don't know that it like to me the movie that screamed out like wow, mindblowing cinematography was actually Train dreams.

4:52

Sure, sure.

5:02

Because it was kind of done in this non traditional way with no flip film nights.

5:03

Absolutely. But there was more buzz around those two films I think.

5:08

Yes.

5:11

But by the time, you know, I'm happy Sinners won.

5:12

I think it was very deserving. I mean that one shot that is like shown at every awards insane. Yeah.

5:15

I think I went oh, and next to you at the dga when we say they like they did that. Oh yeah, that sequence. And I was just like oh wow. And it is just audibly groaning with delight. Anyway, about that actors, let's hop into it. Oren, you put together a really thoughtful itinerary. A schedule, an outline even. So let's start with casting tapes. You know we don't cast in person as much as we'd like to anymore. So more. More often than not the first audition opportunity is going to be a self tape.

5:21

Yeah. And I would. I don't think this is controversial. Controversial in the same. But I would remove the. Unfortunately I do think casting. Oh I just.

5:56

I did.

6:05

Well, there's first calls. Sure is not a bad idea. First of all, it opens up the pool. You don't have to live in Hollywood.

6:05

Yeah.

6:15

To audition. Second of all, we are getting to see these people on camera. Third of all, they are getting to do as many takes as they want and then choose the take that they want to send us. Which I think is going to be part of what we talk about.

6:15

And which is not necessarily my favorite. Right. Because they don't have an infinite number of takes when we're shooting. Right.

6:28

But they have more than one take. The. The way they walk in, whether they put their purse on a thing like whether they were late, they're sweaty, their traffic, the car parking, you know, like all those things that.

6:36

Yeah. They get the chance to do their best. Which is. Which is good for sure.

6:46

Yeah. And it's a. We have a friend, Tad Jamian. I worked with him twice recently and my wife just was hanging out with him while we were working on something and he told her that he does many, many, many takes in his self tapes until he finds a good one. And that guy books non he books. Effing. Stop.

6:50

He books.

7:09

So it, maybe it pays off. So I like, I like that we give actors the opportunity to find the thing to watch them themselves back. So I, I don't know. So I think tapes to me of this entire conversation, even though we're going to talk about being on set and callbacks and everything, I think this is by far the most valuable thing because it's what takes you from a thousand actors down to 10 actors. The, you know, the 100x like odds improvement if you do this part right. And then to go from 10 to 1 is a lot of politics that we'll get into later. But I think to get the callback is hard and if you can consistently get callbacks, you'll eventually book.

7:10

You will book. Yeah, that's true. Definitely.

7:49

So my first kind of thought about submitting self tapes, which again is like how most actors are getting roles, is that there is a difference in my opinion between how you would audition for a commercial, TV and feature films. Would you agree?

7:51

I would agree, yeah. I would agree, absolutely. I think that what we are looking for from an actor for commercial, TV and film is different mostly in so much as like with a commercial, I'm not hoping to transform anyone. I don't need them to. I want them to walk through the door literally being the character we're looking for. And if that's something kind of absurd, like we want to instantly think, oh, you're that person in real life.

8:04

Right. And I think there's a very high chance that between the audition and the shooting, you have not talked to them at all. Right. You haven't done character.

8:34

I think it's nearly a guarantee. Yeah.

8:41

Right. So who, who you see on the audition, in the audition is who you are expecting to have on set.

8:45

Yeah.

8:50

It's not. It's less about potential and more about do they have what we need. Yeah.

8:50

Which is nice because that's a way of saying come as you are. Right. And also I talk about this a lot in my class. You can kind of surrender a little bit to, you know, you are who you are and you don't have that much control over whether or not you book something or not. When it comes down to the elements of are you the type that we're looking for or not? You know, and all sorts of other things that are out of your control. So if you just come in and do great work, regardless of whether that work books you the role, people remember you, they like you. You built a reputation and affinity with, with casting and those people are bringing actors in all the time.

8:55

Right. I made a little. A little cheat sheet for myself. The prime differences. I see. So for commercials, it's. To me, like you said, it's not about characters that transform. So it's not about having a layered performance at all. It's about a quick read. We instantly need to understand who the character is. This is usually kind of the main unit of a commercial is 30 seconds. Nowadays, 15 is even much more common. But we need. You're the nerd, you're the beauty queen, you're the mom, you're the uncle, you're the dopey dad, you're the funny kid. Whatever you are, you're the hipster. Like, we want the second. Like, you're in the first frame. We kind of want to know that. And if the whole point is that it is a turn, you're the grandma, but you secretly love Fortnite or whatever. Come super grandma, because. And then we see you play Fortnite, we want the juxtaposition to read in like two seconds. It's not like a subtle. Not.

9:33

Not even two seconds instantaneously. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

10:29

For tv, this is where I probably have the least experience. But, you know, you and I have both done a lot of episodic type stuff, which I think is in the world of tv. And our wives have both worked in TV a ton. So I think from that, we have a little bit of experience. To me, I think fast, sharp. And you're often, if you're. Especially if you're a day player, not to be like the main. A main character or even recurring.

10:34

You're.

10:55

You come in for like one or two days and you have five lines. Like, you're probably providing some pivotal plot information, and you have to be really good at delivering that. I think they call it like pipe. Right. And TV script, the stuff that is saying like, oh, yeah, Mikey was. Mikey called in sick that day from work, which is weird because I saw him that morning. He seemed super healthy.

10:55

Right, Right, exactly.

11:16

You're.

11:17

You're getting from. You're the witness that gets them from the dead body to suspect one who didn't actually do it.

11:17

Right.

11:24

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think the other thing. Actors will be very familiar with this, but when you go from commercials where you have maybe one line or three or four maybe. But certainly when you're doing multiple lines on a TV show, you can't be one note. Right. Even in this imaginary character, even with

11:25

three lines of Dialogue, even with three

11:45

lines, even with one line. Right. Like, even though you're laying pipe of explaining exposition or getting someone through, through a plot in some way, finding the different thoughts and having an opinion of every single beat that you're saying and finding those little microbeats is what makes you stand out. Right. Otherwise it's just a flat read. If you're just a confused bartender the whole time, then that's not a dynamic. Right. Like we're still vying for people's attention and, and trying to convey mystery and intrigue or comedy or whatever it is. So finding the thing that the writers have laid out for you and embellishing it, plusing it, making it even better or just. Just landing what they were intending in the first place is part of. It's the main job.

11:46

Totally. And then for features, this is where I'd say layered characters, ground being grounded. It's really all about the performance, realism, naturalism. And it's not even about like, you can, it can be big. You can be auditioning for an anchorman, you know, or a hangover bridesmaids type movie, but every choice you make needs to be rooted in your character. It can't be like random and it can't. You can't be yelling for. Just because the script said to yell. Like, you need to know why you're doing these things. And I think when I am thinking of people auditioning for a feature, it's really embodying a character.

12:34

When you talk about this hypothetical audition, are you imagining people, people auditioning for the lead, like for big meaty roles or similarly sized kind of day player

13:10

roles, I guess, for a feature. I still think even if you're like the McDonald's worker at the drive thru, you can have. You should come a little pre, like loaded with backstory. You had a, a tough morning that, you know, you're. Or you're one of your co workers called in sick to the shift. Like have a point of view. And like Edwick said, having any angle, even if it's a completely wrong angle, is better than having no angle.

13:21

And I would say that in that way it's not that different from either TV or commercials.

13:48

Tv.

13:54

You know what I mean? Yeah.

13:54

I mean, I think commercials, a lot of times you're there to be like, to cut to you and you kind of. We both were talking about an actor that I recently worked with that literally you just cut to him and he just has like a really funny look. Yeah.

13:56

Which I think again comes through. And if, if you're if you're auditioning for Funny Guy at the Party, for any version of that, you have to know how to land being the funny guy at the party. Right. And I think that what we're getting at is, like, the specificity of the character is oftentimes on the shoulders of the actor. So to your point, like, even if they're wrong, coming at it from having an opinion, having relationships, being aware, are you the new guy at the party? Have you been there a bunch? Do you know you're the life of the party and you can't wait to get going? Those are all different choices and immediately just bring something to life. Whereas I think oftentimes actors don't make those choices and things just feel really flat. That's what when we say something goes flat, it's because of those choices. It's not because of innate talent.

14:08

And I want to get more into that. But I do want to say that I think we both agree that there are actors that are really good at booking commercials, and actors that are really good at booking TV and film.

15:01

Sure.

15:11

Like, are like, I think, you know, your wife is really good at TV and film booking. My wife used to book a bunch of commercials and doesn't really book them that much. Probably because she, I think, got to be like a better actor that does more work on the characters. And now she books TV and film, but she barely gets called in for commercials, you know, And I. I don't think. I think there's a reason. It's a combination of the look, the performance, the naturalness, the. The speed, the pun, you know, the character.

15:11

Sure.

15:41

You know that. That, like, if you come dressed like a nerd with, like, a bow tie to a feature audition, you probably are not going to get the role, but you probably won't get it in.

15:41

And, you know, it's so funny not to go on a tangent, but you just did a spot where it was really, really heightened. And I tend to not book that work, even though I'd like to. You effectively got to make a live

15:50

action cartoon, which is Mad magazine. Yeah.

16:06

And so when I think of actors coming in in costumes, it always drives me nuts. And I did something relatively broad actually, at the beginning of this year. And the guy who booked it was like wearing a bad wig as a joke. And so, yes, you're right, we would never. They don't really make movies where if you wear a bad wig, you're gonna book the role anymore. But I think that's more of about matching the tone of the piece Rather than the format. My wife did book a commercial just recently, but. But it might as well have been an episode of CSI or. Or something. She was like a worried mom, you know, excited to see her kid.

16:11

There was like a. Yeah, it was rooted in kind of some truthful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which your wife nails every time. Well, so I, I don't really want to get into any technical stuff because I do feel like it's. We've heard about it ad nauseam.

16:53

Oh, you mean self tape wise.

17:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But the one thing I do want to touch on, because even to this day, Kara, my wife, and I still disagree on this is the slate. I think the slate is more important than you think. I think it should be really fast. I'd love to hear your voice. Like sometimes some casting directors have people write stuff on a whiteboard or on a sheet and hold it up in the camera. I still think you should. If, if you're doing that type of audition, you should still say like, hey, my name is Oren Kaplan, I'm based in la. Like, just hear your voice. I just want to get a hint of personality. I know a lot of actors get super annoyed by the full body shot and that is not us like, judging your body. It's just helpful because we're pairing how hot you are. No, because.

17:07

No, no. We just need to know what you look like.

17:52

Yeah, yeah. And we don't want to be surprised when you show up to the fitting the day before the shoot and it's like, oh, you, you just the. Your head.

17:54

You're taller than we thought or whatever.

18:03

Yeah. I think just make it quick. Let us hear your voice. And I personally like it when you're like, nice and funny or have some personality thing. It's funny. I showed you a slate the other day where this actress was like, did a split screen of her full body shot and she's like, here's my body. It's quite a body, amazing body. And I thought it was kind of cute and personable and you were like, so you.

18:05

You know, I was like, hard pass. Also, I don't watch the slate. I figure out approximately where the slate would end in the video files and always jump to that.

18:30

Yeah, well, when I. I just had a casting for a shoot this week where there was no dialogue, so all we got was like, slates. And I. For the people that didn't say anything, I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to cast someone who I can't. Haven't even Heard their voice, you know, because I think just saying hi and being nice makes me feel like, okay, at least they're nice, you know?

18:39

Sure. I will say also again, not to talk about my class too much. I told them this session that just ended, I was like, hey, guys, you know the joke, quote unquote in air quotes where people will come in and they'll slate and then they'll be like, and these are my hands. And they're trying to be like a little cheeky and funny. About 50% of the actors, especially in comedy, about 50% of the actors who come in will make that quote, unquote joke. And I told this to my class. And so they're. They're acting students. They're pretty new. So I think it got them a little in their head about not saying, and this. And these are my hands. And the slates were worse. Yeah. Like, so I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, if you had something more original than. And these are my hands, go for it. You don't need to sweat it too much. But also, it's fine if you just say that.

18:59

Yeah. And by the way, like, yeah, yeah. I talk about this a lot, but I judge. The biggest thing I feel okay judging you on is how experienced you are as an actor. And so if you act like you've auditioned a hundred times, I like that. If you're like, oh, and you want to see hands, front, back profiles, other profile. You know, our friend David Lotman always tells us, like, this is like my good looking side. This is my, like, nerdy side. Because he knows his face inside and out. He's worked so much.

19:49

I think he's also probably saying, like, I can be cute or I can be nerdy. The two things I book all the time.

20:18

Yeah. And it's helpful.

20:24

Yeah.

20:26

You know?

20:26

Yeah. Do you. Do you know Tate Ellington?

20:26

Yes.

20:29

He's married to a casting director, so. And was in a short of mine and we. I remember him telling me, like, he, he plays like kind of like cute guy who's. Who's like shrugging like, I don't know, or like tired dad or guy behind a computer, like, guy in the van. Those are his wheelhouses. And I think knowing that about yourself and presenting that way, I think is a huge asset in terms of actors. And it's hard. It's hard because I think so many people want to think of themselves as the leading character or, you know, something that maybe doesn't totally match their self image. I can't imagine that Tate like in drama school is like, someday I'd like to like squint at a computer screen and shake my head and be like, Jake, you got to get out of there or whatever he says, you know?

20:30

Right, yeah, yeah, totally. And I mean, Chad, our friend, is very good at that exact thing.

21:21

A great, great guy in a van. Yeah, for sure.

21:27

Or shrug. Yeah, right, right. But kind of like has like a, like a nerdy Persona he puts on for auditions. In real life, he's always wearing sunglasses and riding jet skis. You know something I'm always asking Cara, when we submit auditions is like, is it do I send one file with all the takes and one file and the slate at the front or do I. I send them separately. And a lot of times she's like, told that. But I find that when it's one file, I kind of prefer it because I can, like you said, fast forward to the slate and do the. When it's separate files, usually they show up for us as separate clips and it's harder to kind of scrub through there and, and hurry through the.

21:30

That is true. I think that's a note that we should give casting because I think that casting oftentimes will ask for multiple files and they will marry the files together themselves. If you, if you prefer it that way, there's probably other reasons why they do it. So always just follow castings instructions. But yeah, casting directors out there. I agree.

22:07

We use casting networks, right. Usually to watch auditions. And I've seen some actors, they'll have one clip and other actors will have four clips. I think it's just based on how they submitted.

22:27

But yeah, I agree. But I think oftentimes casting will tell them what to do. Yes. Yeah.

22:38

I will say on the topic of dip. Of different. Of multiple clips, if you're submitting more than one take, which like, I'm happy to see two takes, especially if it's something short. If it's like a five minute monologue, you know, maybe one takes enough. But if it's like five words or just, you know, one scene. If you're submitting two takes, just try to make them as different from each other as humanly possible. Like literally go the opposite. Loving mom, mean mom. Like cool guy, nerdy. Like, it doesn't have to be like, still, what if you playing.

22:44

What if you're auditioning for a nerdy guy or. Or mean mom.

23:17

Yeah. Then it's like nice tepid nerd or overly confident nerd. You know, like, think of like Ben Jerome or something as like the different types of characters that he would audition

23:21

for and how you were calling him a confident nerd.

23:31

Well, I think he. He would kill confident nerd and nervous nerd. You know, that's why he's a voice actor, because he's in, like, a bazillion shows and cartoons because he can. He can really, like, communicate a direction and a point of view very quickly. Because I've seen. I mean, we've seen so many multiple takes, you know, of a scene, and it's like, they seem like.

23:33

I don't know what the difference is. Yeah, definitely.

23:55

Yeah. So buttons and ad libs. We've touched on this before, but just because this is the primer, we should probably. Yeah, we should probably, probably touch on it again. What do you think about, like, improvising, sticking to the script? Not sticking to the script. Assuming that the casting has given you no information about this.

23:57

Yeah, I think definitely understanding the momentum of the scene is first and foremost, most important. Right. Improvising something of a top of the scene is really nice because it feels like we're just sort of dropping into the world a little bit. And in real life, when you're shooting the TV show or whatever, it's not like, you know, you're standing at attention and then the cameras start rolling, you start doing something. You're. If you're the bartender, you're polishing a glass or whatever, you're setting the scene as the camera sort of moves in, and then, you know, there's a little bit of chuff or some. Something that sets the scene, and the sheriff walks in, and then the sheriff walks in, and then you notice that. Right. So that helps us as viewers understand that you understand, and just makes it feel like a real full performance, like you've thought it through. And, like, I can drop into that reality with you a little bit more. This isn't what you were asking, but I think it's really important to, like, be clear with your eyelines. You know, if you're talking to two characters, have one on one side of the lens and one on the other side of the lens so that you can turn and we can see. We can understand your decision to, like, look at someone or not look at someone, but that. That holds true to kind of the whole reality of the scene. If you're a bartender in this hypothetical, where's the bar? Where's the door? Where's the glasses? Don't just drop the glasses. If you're. If you're polishing a glass, don't just, like, let it Disappear when someone walks in, set it down. You know, you don't have to get too encumbered with it. But the more real it is to you, the realer it will feel to us.

24:14

Yeah. And if it's a comedy piece, maybe you are cleaning it with your spit, you know, like.

25:52

Sure.

25:56

I think you can find moments. I will just to add on to your eyeline thing. I personally would never like fault you for not having great eyelines but what I do love and I think make having good eyelines is part of this is you building out the environment on your end on your side of the camera for the audition. And I will say about the, the multiple eyelines, make them as close to camera as possible. Like don't make one word like however. Profile.

25:56

Yeah. We don't want to go pure profile. We always want to see your face. So it can be subtle for sure. But I do like knowing which character you're looking at. Definitely.

26:22

Yeah. And if you're driving a car and you're talking to the person in the passenger seat, then just sit sideways.

26:32

Yeah. I was taping a audition with my wife this morning and she, she was trying, she was playing opposite a character that she really disl and she, she printed out a picture of clavicular. Do you know who that is? He's like the looksmaxing.

26:38

Yes, yes.

26:56

He's like the most toxic. Like she just detests this guy and so she just has a little picture of him that she clipped to the light for her eyeline and it's like a funny little thing. I was like, who is that? And she's like, it's Glovik. And we had a little chuckle about it at six in the morning. But those sort of tricks, I think they help, I think they work.

26:57

Leadership used to mean having all the answers. But today's best leaders embody a more human approach.

27:17

I'm Jack Myers.

27:22

And I'm Tim Spengler.

27:23

Tim and I have spent our careers inside media marketing and culture and we

27:24

partnered with the Acast Creator network to start Lead Human to answer one simple question. What does it really look like to lead in this AI dominated world?

27:29

The biggest tip for being a creator, it's a job. What I learned from Michael Jackson. Here's a man who understands precision.

27:39

It's about answering the questions that are hard, not about answering a bunch of teed up questions that are fake.

27:46

What we're looking for are real stories and practical advice that you can use with your teams right away.

27:51

Subscribe to Lead Human with Jack Meyers and Tim Spengler wherever you get your podcasts.

27:57

Hey everyone, it's Paige from Giggly Squad telling you about 20th Century Studios. The Devil Wears Prada 2 now playing in theaters 20 years after the generation defining classic Meryl Streep, Anne Hathaway, Emily Blunt and Stanley Tucci returned to the heeled streets of New York and the halls of Runway magazine in its next chapter, the industry has changed, scandal dominates, and power always comes at a price. Don't miss The Devil Wears Prada 2 now playing in theaters.

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29:02

Something we didn't even really touch about the commercial versus TV versus feature auditions, but in commercials we will get 300 tapes. I think in TV you're probably seeing more like 20 to 30 tapes.

29:46

There's still a lot of tape though. Yeah, there's still a lot of time

30:00

but for us that but I think when you're looking through a hundred different people, then that opening few seconds is going to move the needle much more than a button at the end. Like you might have the funniest button in the world, but if you didn't really capture us in the first like 20 seconds of the tape, we might not make it to the end. Especially if you're like not an obvious casting choice. Like looks wise. I don't mean like good looks versus bad looks. I just mean like you look like the character that we're describing in the brief. So I, I do like. Yeah. The cleaning the cup, doing something. You're on the phone, you're taking a drink, you're, whatever you're doing. Here's the environment out in that first second.

30:03

I like the buttons to be good. I like them to be very short, partially because it means they might actually make it. Like, oh, wow is in this case better than. I'll have what she's having. Right. I'll have what she's having. The funniest button ever wouldn't make the cut in a commercial because it's too long. We don't have four seconds to spare to land that joke. Whereas, like a. Wow.

30:42

Yeah. Devil's advocate. I, I, I'm using the button is probably almost never going to make it, but it is giving me a flavor of who you are and what you're going to bring.

31:09

So here's the other thing about it. If you give me two buttons, you give me a button on the first read and then a different button on the second.

31:18

Yes. You must give me a different button on the second.

31:25

I'm getting the subliminal understanding of, like, oh, you've got lots of ideas, you've got lots of jokes. This will be fun. And if they're both strong, we're good to go, Right?

31:27

Yep. You're, you're going to be a fellow creative, not just like a puppet.

31:38

Yeah.

31:41

So, yeah. And I think, and I would keep the middle as, as clean to the script as possible, unless there's something really awkward for you to say and you can say it in a better way. But in general, I would kind of stick to the script in the middle and learn how to say the brand names. Learn how to say, like, look everything up that you're not sure how to pronounce. Yeah.

31:42

Let me ask.

32:01

I've seen people not get roles that they're probably good for because they're pronouncing the, they're saying the really funny.

32:02

Funnily, what about, we don't really do pharma work, but, like, that would be the one instance where I might give you a little bit of a pass. If it's a new drug and it's like just a bunch of syllables and

32:08

zero vowels, we would give them a pass, but we have to get this them approved by an agency and a client. And I take it back.

32:20

We would have to tell casting to teach them how to say it before they send tape in.

32:28

Yeah. This is not an episode for directors. Episode for actors. Okay. So backgrounds, I think again, I'm probably more forgiving on this than. Definitely more forgiving than Kara, my wife is. She's like, oh, there's a bookshelf behind. She's a big believer in just like white wall is better than anything else in your house. And then we use a blue background, which I think just is a good contrast to human skin.

32:32

But you just got a gray background that Chrissy's very.

32:55

Yeah, we have, we had gray. I switched it to blue. We just have the seamless. So, you know, you can kind of switch the colors. But I think, yeah, so look, the.

32:57

Those backgrounds say, hey, I'm a professional working actor. I know what I'm doing. That's nice. I have absolutely cast people in their dorm rooms with like very clearly their phone propped up on a stack of books or a bong or whatever. For sure. Like, to me it doesn't.

33:07

It's totally valid for you to be like, hey, I'm on vacation, but I'm, you know, I'm in shooting in my, my old room at my parents house. Yeah.

33:23

Bother me at all.

33:30

Playing it away. Yeah.

33:31

Though I will say I just was auditioning people yesterday and my rule of thumb has always been like, hey, just don't make it distracting. Right. Like that's, that's really what we're getting at. We don't care what your living circumstances are like or if you are really have an awesome backdrop or not. It just means the. We have less to think about or focus on if it's just a neutral background and your face and whether that's a white wall or a gray or blue background or whatever. That's the point of all of those. But you should be thoughtful about it. I think that the hierarchy of importance for me goes nice light. Where I can see you clearly is more important than a neutral background. But then right after that, a neutral background is ideal.

33:32

Number one is good sound.

34:20

Yeah. Number one is good sound. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But I did audition. I got a piece of tape the other day and the guy was totally good, but it was a blank wall except for a boomerang right above his head.

34:22

Yeah. And I just couldn't help but take him down.

34:36

Just take the boomerang down. You're just like, I'm staring at the boomerang and it's a nice boomerang.

34:38

Was he Australian?

34:42

No, no, he was Australian.

34:44

It would be forgivable.

34:46

I mean, look, maybe. Maybe he's an Australian enthusiast. Maybe he just has a great accent. I don't know, I'm not saying that the boomerang is authentic or not. I'm saying it was the only thing in frame besides his face. And you don't see a boomerang that often.

34:47

That is funny. I saw a tape last week. This guy was in clearly in his living room or something, just like against the white wall. Medium shot, but there was a baby, which I assumed was his baby, that was crying kind of a lot during the take. And it was not like a sad day. And he's not playing a father.

35:02

Yeah.

35:19

Yeah. And it, I, I, it was really hard for me to see past that. I was kind of distracting and I, in the, like, I know that you, you could have taken, done another take,

35:19

you know, I don't, I don't know that that's true. My heart goes out to that guy. Like, maybe it's just like, you know, you're in the middle of a crying session. You know, maybe your, your kid has.

35:29

Yeah. One of those things that makes. Yeah. Like gastro. Yeah, yeah.

35:41

And, and like, that's as good as it got. Say you've got a crying baby and you did the best you could with the tape. You sent it in. We're not going to remember you. We're not going to know their name. It's not going to be a big deal. You're probably not going to get that role. And that's frustrating and hard and look, maybe you do, but I don't think it tarnishes your reputation. Like the things that would be.

35:46

No, that would not be like hurt

36:08

a reputation is it has to be way more explicitly rude to a casting associate, like mean to some bad stuff that hurts your reputation. A tape where the circumstances aren't ideal. It happens.

36:09

That's totally fine.

36:22

Yeah.

36:23

I mean, I've auditioned so many people in their cars, too, and I've, I've cast a couple people out of the cars, but they're really, really good, you know, and you know a good actor when they can give you a performance on the side of the road, you know. Sure, sure.

36:23

Or I will say oak break, basically. Right.

36:36

Yeah. What's your take on bathrooms? I mean, I'm sure we both shot a lot of scenes that take place in bathrooms, people looking at mirrors. Because I feel like when I have those auditions, a lot of people are trying to shoot it in their bathroom and I'm like, don't do it. The audio is bad. You just didn't need to do that.

36:39

Yeah. I thought you were saying, I have seen some tape where clearly Someone was. I knew they were traveling. Like, we really wanted them. We wanted a second piece of tape, and they sent us a tape from the bathroom where the scene doesn't take place in the bathroom. We may be caster. It's not the end of the world. I think that ultimately, and this is something I try to teach my students, the casting. They're almost always actors, right? Maybe they retired. Maybe they're still at it. They're your teammate. They're your coworker. They can let us know all of your circumstances. We're human beings, and we can kind of translate that up to final decision makers. You know what I mean? Like, if. If you love a person who has to send in a compromised audition, but you usually like them and they have said, like, hey, I'm sorry, here are my circumstances. And that gets relayed to us. We're fine with it. And I can sell that to client.

36:56

Yeah, and sorry, I didn't mean a bathroom. If you have a bathroom with great lighting and you can put a backdrop behind you, that's fine. I just mean the scene takes place in the bathroom. And instead of shooting out your nice setup in your living room, you're shooting in the bathroom.

37:50

So I'm a stickler. So I want everyone to take a real. This is a big grain of salt. This is like a matte enlo ism. I don't want props. I don't want, like, I. I tell my students, I don't want you to. I want you to paint the picture. Like. But I don't want you wearing costumes or distracting me in any way. I want to see your face, and I want you to do the line.

38:03

So even if someone's taking a sip of wine in the scene, Take a sip of wine.

38:25

You can take a sip of wine. But also, I. Frankly, I would. I would prefer you pantomime. Honestly, it would be totally okay if you had a wine glass and you sipped some wine or sipped some water or whatever. But if you. You're like, ah, it's the middle of the day. I don't want to drink. And you sip apple juice, that kind of passes as white wine, I guess that's fine. But if you sipped Coke or something like that, as soon as I'm like, is that Coke? I'm not thinking about your scene. I'm thinking about your prop decision. Do you know what I mean?

38:30

So, like, I'm 180 degrees the other direction.

39:00

You're like, I'll sip the Coke.

39:03

I love props. I. You know, I used to take headshots when I first moved to la, and I just noticed a lot of people are more comfortable when they're holding their thing, their cigarette, their guitar and their whatever. And I just want to see you on set. You're gonna have a prop, you know.

39:05

Sure.

39:19

You're not going to be pantomiming things,

39:19

but I guess my point is that I'm not impressed by the fact that you have a bottle of down or

39:21

whatever, you know, not impressed. To be honest, I do sometimes write in the notes like, oh, look, they. They actually have the downy, you know.

39:28

Sure.

39:35

But.

39:36

But only if you're trying to sell them through. Not if you do. You know what I mean? Like, that's not a. You're not. You're not thinking they're good because they brought the prop. You know what I mean?

39:36

No, but I would never count it against them. I think it's cute, you know? I don't know.

39:46

Yeah, I just find it. I find it like a little. It feels a little amateurish to me. So this is the. The threshold that I. I tell people, say you're going out for a doctor. You have to say, that's the role. If you've got scrubs, I think that's okay. It's kind of a weird gray area. If you have a doctor's coat, say, you gotta look where you really. You're going out for doctor roles all the time. You can put on a lab coat for sure. You don't put on the stethoscope. That's the difference to me, that's the difference between, like, oh, it feels like high school theater versus, like, oh, no, I'm a working actor who just happens to have a little piece of wardrobe. But you could just wear a white oxford or just, like, look professional. And that works just as well for me.

39:51

Yeah, I'm. I'm just. Yeah. I guess we'll just leave it at word. We're different.

40:31

You disagree. You're like, put on the stethoscope.

40:35

If you had. I wouldn't go buy a stethoscope. And if you. If your roommate is a nurse and she has. Or he has a stethoscope and it's real and you can put anything to build the character in the environment. Like, I've. When I've done the very little acting I've done, like, when I put the wardrobe on, it changes the way I feel about who I am. I. I'm believe that there's a sensory part to acting that some people don't need. It at all. And some people, if, you know, if they're doing the scene, I'm not saying like you should be, you know, doing real drugs in a drug scene or anything, but I think the tactileness of things makes a difference.

40:38

I think that. So doing real drugs in the scene where you're doing drugs is obviously the far end of that. I think that everyone has their own kind of threshold where it's like, okay, well, this is a little bit too much. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's going to be different for everyone. I'm softening on it a little bit.

41:16

I used to think the instinct is that you've seen a lot of bad actors do this and it's really turned you off. And I've done. I. When I did my Lifetime movie, we had a police character and we had this woman audition. She was pretty good. I think she was kind of like slightly famous from TV shows, but she had this like really fake looking police hat that like, clearly she bought it like a costume store. And I could not call her back because I just could not see beyond that police hat. If you're adding something that just makes the whole thing seem so fake.

41:36

Yeah.

42:04

Then yeah, don't do it. But you know, if, if it helps you to do that. But, but where I wouldn't, where I do get annoyed a little bit is if it's like a car scene and you went and filmed it in your car. I, I would. Honestly, it just makes me feel bad for you a little bit. Like I did this whole thing a couple years ago where it's a dad and a daughter in a fishing pier. And like so many people went with their kid to the fishing pier to shoot the scene. And I'm like, I feel so bad that I'm not going to cast them. You know, you're literally making me feel guilty while I'm watching these things.

42:05

And also I think we talked about that on the show when it happened. Similarly, I had some actors who were going up and downstairs in something I was shooting earlier this year. I couldn't see their faces. Right. So, like, it's cool that you, I love that you want to go the extra mile. I really appreciate that. But really what I'm saying is that if you're losing sight of the root of what we're looking for, are you a good actor? What do you look like? How thoughtful are you? Do you get it? That's the bottom line. So, yeah, if you have a real cop hat, maybe that's better. That might be distracting, but if you're like, hey, this brings my performance to life in a different way, then that's embellishing things. That's improving things, not distracting things from that.

42:40

Yeah. Now, I had. I had a couple notes that are specific to commercials, and I'm curious if you agree on them. Number one is I do think you should research the voice of the brand. Like, an ad for Axe Body Spray or Old Spice is very different than for, like, Children's Hospital, you know, or for Nike. And so having an idea of the tone before you go in will probably help you with your performance about how underplayed or overplayed or broad or quick or fast or pensive it is. And I think that's my number one. Number two, if you're gonna ad lib or improvise or anything, think of it from the. From the mind of a person who works for this brand and does not want to get sued. You cannot even be remotely close to being offensive in a way you couldn't. You can't be negative about the product. You can't, you know, taste the Heinz ketchup and, and cough, you know, like, anything that might be perceived remotely negative about the product, the interaction with the product, or you, as someone associated with the product, just avoid. And I see this all the time where I'm like, even, like, I had

43:26

no idea this was so good. Like, implies that some people don't think it's good. Like, yeah. You know what I mean?

44:35

I mean, I think if you're like, who knew? Like, like this fabric softener worked. I, I, to me, I think that's

44:43

okay to be, like, it's not as good at. It's not to, to the, to your point of, like, client mind, it's not as positive as, wow, this is my favorite.

44:50

Oh, yeah. Better than I expected.

45:00

This is the greatest of all time, right?

45:02

Yeah. But if you're like. Yeah. And never joke about, like, any sort of, like, abuser or being mean in any way. Like, like, never be, like, finally, I can get away from my kids, play this new video game, you know? Yeah.

45:04

Unless that's, like, literally the premise of the piece, right?

45:19

Yeah. I think some social stuff gets a little, like, crazier.

45:22

Yeah. I remember there was a team win campaign from before I was there where the mom was, like, hiding from her kids in the, on the toilet. That did very well. And it was because it was rooted in the idea that parents do hide from their children's in the bathroom.

45:26

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Commercials don't expect People to watch your tapes all the way through. Be, you know, try to be. Bring your best stuff to the beginning front. Load it. I mean, be good the whole way. But, but don't be like, ooh, this gets really good, like three quarters of the way through. And then this last one, I mean, I think it applies to everything, but especially commercials. Like, be presentable, you know, do your hair, do your makeup, do whatever. Like, don't be sloppy unless that is literally the description of the character. And even then be kind of like the best version of sloppy.

45:40

Yeah, so it's tricky. This is oftentimes, like, you'll get. You'll see roles for people who are meant to feel natural. And it'll be like, no makeup, for instance. Wear makeup. Just don't wear a lot, you know.

46:14

Yeah, like, eliminate the shine. Anything distracting, you know, your hair. But yeah, I think for features, if you're playing someone, if you have really interesting freckles or, you know, you're, you're. You are playing a mad professor and your hair is like Einstein level craziness. Like, yeah, you play that up if that's right for the character, but if it's not, then, yeah, just do it. I mean, I, I've seen also, like, really great performances and it's like, ah, but it's. They're. They're never going to go for this person because they have like a giant pimple or something, you know?

46:32

Yeah, it's hard because unlike features in tv, we have people from marketing and people who are far less versed in, in commercials and TV and shooting things that we have to work with. And so they often will default to the biggest performance or the most conventionally attractive person is a thing that I see all the time. And so, you know, there are things that we do to mitigate that. Not that I have a problem with hot people, but, like, we're often trying to find a different sort of pathway for this piece, you know, to make it unique or funny or shine in a different way. And sometimes people get a little flustered when they're on the spot and they have to make a decision like, oh, this person's really good, or this person's really believable. This person has good expressions. What you're getting at is like, that presentability and that just positivity. And I think attitude really carries through all of that as well. The thing that I've heard and maybe even have brought up on the show, I wish I could remember who said this, but I saw someone talking about commercial acting and how it needs to be positive and the way in on it for this actor, and I've repeated it many times, is it's just you on your best day, you just got an incredible piece of news. You're so excited and so you're in a really good mood when you find out that financing is incredibly cheap on Toyotas this spring or whatever it may be. Right. So you can't. I think young actors tend to really want to push, especially like sales copy. They'll be like, wow. Or this is my favorite. Right. This. No actor would that bad. But you know, they think that that's the way to do it. But the way to ground it in something that feels authentic, which is what really sells product for people, is to come at it from a slightly more method perspective, in my opinion, you know, and that otherwise it feels false.

47:02

I know, I know. Like, Vince Pe says this and I've, I've said it a couple times too on set to actors like, you just won, you know, you just won an Oscar. Like, yeah, yeah.

49:06

Well, you just got a great email. You know what I mean? Yeah.

49:15

You just save 15% or more on your current.

49:19

Yeah, yeah.

49:21

So for narrative, again, I think a lot of these things like you're saying overlap narrative and commercial. But I think for narrative, building out your environment like we talked about, is really important. And I also think here, here's where you. Finding layers to your character. Opportunities for turns. Like a chance. Like, you have five lines. Find a line that can be quiet and find a line that can be loud, you know, Oh, I. Anything you can avoid.

49:23

Yeah, I agreed. 100. But like within the line, that's what a comma is for. Basically any piece of punctuation is a clue for how those three or four words should be read. Right. Is it an aside? Is it you double checking yourself? Is it you commanding someone? All of the, you know, break it all down.

49:45

Judith Weston action verbs.

50:06

Yeah, 100%. But within a single sentence, you should be finding those different colors.

50:08

Yeah. And if it seems like the writing's not good, which a lot of times it's not, then find, you know, try to find your own, like, meaning in these things.

50:12

I'll push back. Maybe the writing's good, maybe the acting's bad. Either way, it's your job to make the writing good. Right. So how often have you been like, ah, kind of so. So on this line, it's not really clicking for me. And then someone comes in and nails it in the audition and you're like, oh, I didn't even realize this is the best line in the piece. That's the power of the actor. That's the power of the scene analysis.

50:21

Yeah. I mean, I saw this audition yesterday where the actor we were auditioning said the line of the actor he was talking to on accident. And I was like, oh, it does sound better coming from him. And I convinced the agency to move. To move it. Why don't we give him the line? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's. This actress says three things like, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, why don't we give him the third boom? You know?

50:43

Oh, that's funny. Boom, boom, boom. That's fun. That's great.

51:06

Yeah, yeah. Because now it's kind of now that we see they're in sync with each other. Also, the dialogue seemed more like something he would say. It was like a very Gen Z dialogue and she's a little more spokesperson. So I felt like it saved that line. Instead of feeling, like incorrectly written, it was like, okay, that works.

51:09

I think the big. The big picture of all of this is that actors are often at a disadvantage in the way that PAs often are, as well, in so much as they have the least amount of information of anyone. But they are really high stakes. They're pivotal, just like all crew members are pivotal, but, like, all eyes are on this actor. And so what we're trying to convey to you is that the more you can decode the clues that people are laying out and sometimes they feel obvious, the more experienced you are, the more obvious they feel. But we're trying to guide you in the directions that make it apparent to us that you are going to understand and be an ally for us. And that, like, when you hear improv, I've seen lots of people who are really funny go into crazy town and stuff that we cannot use and is against brand guidelines. Whereas a person who is quick and funny and brand appropriate and understands the spine of the entire piece and is just plussing that. That's just a very clear symbol to us that, oh, even with the tiny bit of information we've given you, you can make things better. So imagine how much better it will get the more information you get.

51:26

Right. And a callback where we've told you a little bit more information about the

52:41

or at lunch or while you're in the makeup chair. Like, all of that stuff is going to be additive, but, like, actors are almost always in the dark. Right. We spent months talking about this thing,

52:44

and I think there's this common thing with actors where they're like, oh, yeah, you ended up not getting it just because you kind of. Your angle is, like, kind of aggressive, you know, and they wanted more, like, of a curious, you know, and then the actor will be like, well, why don't they just tell me, I can make it curious? You know, I can do anything. And we know that you, as actors can do anything, but the actor that comes in the closest to where we need them to be when we say action on set, is the actor that we're probably going to cast. Because we do not have time to do 20 takes on set working on your performance as we're trying to nail the angle that you're holding, the product and the camera and the focus and the 17 outlines and all that stuff. So that's why all this stuff is super helpful. The last thing that was on my list of kind of things for tapes and for your first audition is if it is narrative, if it's a TV show from. That's either on TV or that you can look up the director or the producers, like, find the tone and the vibe of the filmmakers and use that. I mean, you guys do it, right? Chrissy will be like, oh, yeah, I

52:53

have to watch a Taylor show.

53:53

Med is different than the Pit or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And.

53:54

And that can be quick. You know what I mean? That can be a quick YouTube dive. And again, the more experience you have, the quicker you can kind of understand what they're doing. Like, you know, if there's an acronym in the show title, you probably already have a pretty clear understanding of the tone, right? If it's medical, if it's legal. Oh, we've all been decoding that stuff the whole time. But also, like, that rule breaks as soon as you're like, oh, I'm going out for St. Denis. Right? You better know, right? If you come in, you're auditioning for Grey's Anatomy, and then all of a sudden it's a comedy, then you're in trouble. So, yeah, be conversant, be aware.

53:58

And also, this is why it's helpful to watch TV and to watch movies. If you want to work in tv, watch tv. And if you want to work in movies, watch movies. And if you want to work in commercials, watch a commercial every once in a while, you know?

54:37

Yeah, yeah.

54:51

It's hard to cast the people that hate commercials and commercials or just, like,

54:51

don't know what you're talking about, you know, like, Oren, you're like a true commercial nerd, I would say. I'm like, I watch I happily watch commercials because it's my job, but I have students who are like, don't know who, like, what progressive is.

54:55

Right.

55:13

You know what I mean? And to be fair, some of them don't live in this country, in which case that's totally fine.

55:13

It is a very American brand. Even in Canada, they're like, I'm like, you know that. You know Flo from Progressive, and they're

55:17

like, they're like, no, but. But you know what's weird is they all know Jake from State Farm.

55:22

Oh, yeah.

55:26

Like, I, I could say flow and they wouldn't know who I'm talking about. But Jake from State Farm, they know who that is. Right? But they don't know who, like, mayhem is anyway.

55:27

Right? You've never heard of Leonardo DiCaprio?

55:36

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56:22

Yeah, well, we were talking about kind of the, the next step of casting, which again, I do think what we talked about is probably the most important thing because now you're kind of locked and loaded and somehow you got a call back and it depends on how many roles are being cast and everything, but I, I think as a general average number, we're probably calling back about, in commercial world, about 10 actors per role. And in narrative, maybe like eight. It's kind of similar number, I think

56:54

kind of less, actually. Like narrative. I thought you were going to say three or four.

57:25

Well, for TV maybe. If you're doing an indie feature, you're probably going to be a little more rigorous, right?

57:29

Oh, especially in terms of like a lead. Absolutely. A lead.

57:35

Yeah. Or like a big, like a coat supporting or something.

57:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm not a good person to ask because any producer I've ever worked with will tell you I would audition people all day. Like, truly, at this point, I'm like, give me 20, give me 20 and give me 15 minutes each with them. Like, I'm a maniac. Because I think you get a better result ultimately, you know, because you learn a lot. You and I both love actors. Your point of like, oh, why didn't that scenario where the actor's like, why didn't you tell me to do it that way? I want to give you that shot. Right. The fact of the matter is we have a lot, a lot of other stuff we have to do that day. When you're in casting, you're in prop on everything and that you will burn out a creative director for sure. I. My appetite for auditioning people is easily 3x what your regular ad executive can handle. And that's even what they're slacking other people and stuff all the time.

57:43

Right. But in narrative, you can spend all day, but you have actors in the waiting room. You know, that's. And if it's a SAG job, you. If you have them for longer than an hour there, you have to pay them condition. So which is good. I think.

58:33

Yeah.

58:47

One of the. It's more like I agree with.

58:47

I just have to tell the, the casting to schedule greater gaps. Like they'll be like, hey, do you need four and a half minutes or four minutes and 45 seconds? And I'm like, I need, I need 12.

58:49

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so kind of my number one rule for callbacks. And this is where in self tapes it's not as important because you get to do as many takes as you want and send the good take. And callbacks, you kind of have to be confident just walking right into the room. And my tip is like, dude, you got the call back. Like, you should be confident. You already beat out 90% of the people that wanted this role. So you're like a top actor.

58:59

No, you beat out 99%. Think of how many leads of high school plays didn't go to drama school and then move to LA and then get management and then get through the first round of casting to get the callback. Like, it's pro ball, you know. And so the hard thing about that, and I think put it so perfectly on our show, just getting the callback is the win. Like, that means you're awesome already.

59:23

Yeah, yeah. That means you're in the top, top, top of the actors, especially in LA or New York or Chicago or Austin or Atlanta. Yeah. I mean, kind of big actor Mark. But by the way, sometimes you might not be top 10% in LA, but you will be top 10% in San Antonio. And that's. That is an argument for why kind of some of these smaller markets can help you build that confidence to make you a top 10% in LA and

59:49

gain that experience too. Right. And I remember back when we used to do everything in person and then people, actors would come in with their headshot and on the back was their resume. And I would always, to your point about the slate, I would. As soon as I got the resume, I'd scan it and I'd pick out any little piece of information. Oh, who is your UCB coach? Like, you know, especially when I used to know all of them. Or like, oh, I know that person. Or like, how was this? Or, oh, I love that show.

1:00:16

That totally changed.

1:00:41

Yeah, that's all gone. But I remember one of the moves was being like, oh, I see you did every single Portland show. Awesome. You know, like, you could tell what region they were from.

1:00:42

Where they're from.

1:00:53

Yeah, where they're from and what they're booking and, you know, like, oh, how long have you been out here? That's not a pop quiz. That's me trying to figure out, like, are you relaxed? Are you happy? Is this going to be an easy situation or is this going to be a little bit of a challenge, you know, and if, if you are nervous, what can I do to make you calm? You know?

1:00:54

Right. And even if in the waiting room you notice that you're up against Jon Hamm or Margot Robbie or whatever, just remember you're a top 1% actor.

1:01:11

Well, no, I think actually the reality is, like, you're not up against John Ham and Margot Robbie, but you. But even if you're like, oh, I saw them on the show I was watching last night and they were so good. That means you're in the same weight class as them.

1:01:20

Yeah. And I mean, you know, that happens to me, like, every time I get shortlisted on anything. I'm like, dude, I can't believe I'm pitching against my idols, you know?

1:01:33

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What do I say to you?

1:01:41

You say, good Luck.

1:01:43

Yeah, I know. I would.

1:01:46

I would probably.

1:01:47

Yeah.

1:01:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, yeah. I interviewed a DP that works with Keith Schofield a lot today, and I was like, oh, man, I love him. And I did beat him for a job once. I. I do think an easy way to show confidence is to, like, ask questions if you're unclear. Like, don't ask questions just for the sake of asking questions. But if you're like, is it cool if I sit in here, or should I stand? Or is it like, any of that stuff just makes me feel like you've done this before.

1:01:48

Yeah. Like. And there's a big difference between, is it okay if I stand versus, like, I was thinking I'd stand up. Is that all right? You know, like. Like asking for permission versus being like, hey, I'm just. I'm throwing out that this is how I did it, like, to do it. So is that okay? You know? Yeah. And also, if it's like, ah, God, sorry. We've been having everybody seated, and we're all set up for it. It's okay if you sit down being okay with that, too.

1:02:13

That's.

1:02:39

That's a flex, you know?

1:02:40

Yeah. And I do. And we talked about this the other day, but, like, if someone came in, it's almost never happens, but it's like, hey, I did, like, two different versions in my first tape. Is there one that you preferred? Do you. What do you say to that? Because usually we don't remember.

1:02:42

I. Well, I don't remember. I would say just do both is what I would say if someone asked me, but I would prefer you them come in and say, like, hey, you know, I kind of gave you two different versions. I'd love to show you both real quick. And then you're like, yeah, great. Go do it. And then. Then you kind of have a place to start from. Or, you know, say like, oh, let's just start with the ground of one. That's the one we're looking for first.

1:02:57

Right. But.

1:03:16

But, you know, being aware that sometimes we have a different perspective than what you have prepared and being able to roll with the punches is just another way of showing us that you're experienced, which is really, I think, part of what you're getting at with the confidence, you know?

1:03:17

Yeah. And by the way, if we give you a note to do it differently, there's like a 50% chance that we like how you did it. We just want to see if you can take notes. Right.

1:03:34

Yeah.

1:03:44

And I wrote this down. I'm curious what you Think. But I think it's totally fine if you mess up or flub or you're off or you skip the line to be like, is it cool if I take it again from the top? Like, having one clean take, especially if you have to. We're gonna have to show this tape to other people.

1:03:45

Honestly, don't even ask. Just like, I'll take it from the top and then do it. Here's the thing that you should not do. If you make a mistake, do not make a big show of it. Don't roll your eyes and apologize. And, like, that's the thing that's annoying. People make mistakes all the time. I flip lines all the time. We have an editor for that reason. Like, if you're like, oh, God, sorry. What was I thinking?

1:04:02

I've got a ticket on the way here. And it's just, like, really stressing out.

1:04:27

Just like. And if you need to take a second, take a deep breath, close your eyes, we get it. And also, we're not gonna say no. Like, have you ever. Anyone ever been like, I'm sorry. Just try that again from the top? And you go, no, we've got it.

1:04:30

I've done the opposite. Which is. I kind of done this probably a lot of times, which is I. I'm rooting for an actor that comes in. I know they have, like, the perfect look, or they just did something in their tape that's so perfect, you're already

1:04:44

following them through a little bit, even, you know.

1:04:57

Yeah. And I see that they are not doing it well. And sometimes it's because the script has changed, or sometimes it's because they had something happen in their personal life or they just flew in last night from Europe or whatever. Sometimes I'll be like, hey, do you want to just take the script and go out? We'll see somebody else and just. Just take a few minutes in the waiting room and come back in.

1:04:59

Has that ever worked?

1:05:16

I can't think if I. I can't remember if I've ever actually cast someone that did that. But I do believe that I. I saved people from, like, being super bummed about what they've done. I usually tell them. I usually say, like, hey, just so you know, you're, like, one of my favorite people from the initial audition. And, like, I want to get the best version of this, and I feel like we switched all the dialogue up, and I think it would be valuable if maybe you took a break. It can definitely get in people's brains, too. I hear what you're asking, and yeah.

1:05:18

I'm asking, like, oh, because I think if someone said that to me, it would be hard. What I will do is I'll tell them to shake it out and do it with them. I'll be like, take a deep breath. Let's shake it out. Great. Loosen up. Let's go again. Right. Which is another version of, like, hey, it's not that big a deal. We're just, it's just an audition. We're doing it together. But, hey, I see that you're feeling a little tense. And also, I'm gonna all shake it out as well. When and for people who are driving or whatever, I literally mean wiggle. You know, like, it's a little silly and it's a little physical. It makes you realize, like, oh, you're back in your body a little bit. It kind of breaks the tension. If I'm being, if it's, if it's really rough and I'll do this more on set, I will say, like, everybody, shake it out. And if the camera op. It doesn't shake it out, I'll be like, operator, friend. I said, everybody, we're all in this together. Shake it out. Like, I'll do it to Klein. I make everybody get a little wiggle out.

1:05:50

Everyone's funny is, if you were that camera operator on somebody else's set and that happened, you would be so annoying.

1:06:43

I, I, I'm a little band camp when it comes to that stuff. Do you know what I mean? I think I'm pretty kumbaya and I'm not mean to anybody ever. So I think I kind of earn the chance to be a little silly. And, and I'm, I'm very clearly, like, everyone gets it. We're all in this together. It's scary and tense, and we're supporting one another by doing a little wiggle. And also, most of the time, I'm trying to hire regulars. So I can't think of a time where I did that with a crew that I didn't know. You know, like, if I had just, like, gotten in for the tech two days ago and, you know, just shook hands with everybody that morning, I don't know that I'd be like, hey, everybody, shake it out. But maybe I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, I'm willing to be a little silly and to ask that of other people because acting is so vulnerable, and it's a way to break the tension. It's a version of going out into the other room and, like, taking deep breath and resetting and coming back in without kind of accidentally giving. Putting more pressure on someone.

1:06:49

Yeah, yeah. I guess I'm happy to make myself uncomfortable, but I probably wouldn't ask the camera operator.

1:07:54

The camera operator almost always isn't that. You know what I mean?

1:07:59

Like, yeah, I know it's obvious. But I do think you should be nice. Not just to us, they should be really nice to the other actors in the room. It should be nice to the casting associates that are assigning them in. The casting director, obviously. But you never know who's in that waiting room with you. Like this thing I just cast, my wife was in the waiting room and this one actor, she's like, oh, they asked him if he would be willing to come back in and read with another actor. And he literally said to the casting associate, like, well, what, what would I get out of that? Like, why would I do that? And I was like, no way. He said that? Like, yep. He said that he did not. Was not interested in, like, helping out the other actors.

1:08:01

You could also be like, hey, I'm so sorry. I'm on like my lunch break. I gotta head out. Is that gonna be okay?

1:08:42

And I would never have known it in a million years if my wife wasn't in the casting office. But just like, everyone knows everyone and people. That is like a reputation. By the way, we did end up casting him.

1:08:47

No. Did you really?

1:08:59

Yeah. But I didn't know that until after we cast. Oh, man. You didn't tell me. But now you remember him now I probably wouldn't cast him again. Yeah. Because of that story.

1:09:00

Yeah.

1:09:09

And he was good, but he's not irreplaceable. I do want to say this thing, I'm sure you agree with me is that we do remember actors that we

1:09:10

like the name dropping actors that we like this whole time, that we will absolutely cast again for sure.

1:09:19

But even if we've never cast them, even if you came, you did three rounds of auditions and we didn't cast you, like, you're on our mind 100.

1:09:26

And like, maybe. Do I know your first name? Maybe, Maybe not. Do I recognize your face? Absolutely. There's. There's a young woman in, I think she's based in Chicago that I've been trying to cast for years and have almost. I, I like, wrote an email and then stopped. I was like this. She doesn't know me. I don't want to, like, get her hopes up or whatever, but I've been trying to cast this person for years and years. And I saw her in another person's commercial and was like, there she is. She's really funny. I can't wait to cast her. The right role is gonna come across, and it will be such a delight when I finally get to cast that person. It'll feel like I'm getting the job myself. You know what I mean? Absolutely. You're rooting for people. There's an actor in Ohio that. His stage name is Jazzy, and that took me five years, but I cast him in something for sure.

1:09:34

Nice. Yeah. No, so don't. Just because you didn't book it, don't feel super bummed, because if you did a good job, you'll probably be remembered and at the very least called in. And I'm. I'm always, like, telling the casting director I work with, like, oh, call this person. Call that. Oh, you know, that person.

1:10:24

Or even, like, I do remember we saw a lot of really good people on this last job or three years ago. I was thinking, maybe who do you have from that list? And casting, definitely that's their whole job, is to remember those people and keep them on file. And I wouldn't be surprised if they lose a couple headshots here or there when people are rude to them. Right. Because the flip side is casting doesn't want to hear later on like, oh, my God, this guy was kind of a huge jerk. Did you know this? Like, his attitude. Does he treat people this way that makes them look bad? You know, there are too many great actors who are nice to cast jerks.

1:10:41

Yeah. I told Nay almost cast. There was a guy that was. Basically, we all wanted to cast. Me, the agency, the client. We all loved him. Great tape, great audition, great everything. And then. Or my casting director was like, hey, just so you know, he's kind of has, like a bad reputation on set. And. And then I was like, how so? And she called some directors that she'd work with that had cast them, and he gave her the specifics, and it was pretty bad. Like, he was, like, basically holding the production hostage.

1:11:18

Yeah, sure.

1:11:48

And so we did cast them. Yeah. Yeah. Just wanted to touch on one last thing, which is if you are put on a veil, which is what we say, like, we're making sure you're still available for the shoot dates. In my mind, that's like a 25 to 35% chance that you.

1:11:48

I was going to say 30. I was going to say 30 back in the day. And maybe this was just my experience, but it felt like, oh, you're. You're it. Basically, we're putting you on a veil means that you are the choice. And I think that might still be a. I don't know if TV is quite as Loosey Goosey's commercials are tv.

1:12:06

I think they pin, right? Oh, you're pinned. Yeah, sure. And usually maybe they'll pin like, at least two people.

1:12:24

Yeah, yeah.

1:12:30

And sometimes they might have an offer out to a celebrity as well that you don't.

1:12:31

And sometimes they'll say that also, you know, just for awareness or. Or even the worst is when you know, you know that even going into the audition, it's like, oh, well, if you know, whoever is available, then never mind. But yeah, I think that. I think that extra layer of not just agency, but also client. So it's not just production, it's also the studio and TV and film. We have another player on top of that. And if someone falls in love with someone, if, say, the client is like, oh, this person who wasn't totally at the top of Matt's list is their new favorite, and they all of a sudden are no longer available. It's a huge problem. Huge problem. And so I think that casting has been incentivized to start putting people on avail quicker. I. I remember, like, working.

1:12:35

If we're even considering, like five people they'll marry, they'll be like, yeah, I'll just put them all on a veil. I'm like, okay.

1:13:31

And she. She will put people on a veil that we were just talking positively about, you know, Like, I. I've made her get printouts for me before where I have my yes pile and my no pile. If you're in the yes pile, they're already kind of like making calls and double checking things.

1:13:36

Because when you think about. Yeah, sometimes people rationalize it by saying, like, well, it'll. They'll look good for their agent if they're on a veil. So it doesn't.

1:13:53

I think that's true. I think it's like a super callback. Yeah, I think so.

1:14:01

But it is annoying to. To say, like, hey, we might book you when you have, like, almost no chance of getting it.

1:14:05

Almost no chance. I think is hyperbolic. I think you have a decent chance. Yeah.

1:14:11

Yeah. Better than the callback. You're already, like, now in the top.05%.

1:14:16

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's why I like to be as clear as quickly as possible about it,

1:14:21

you know, and one addendum of a thing that I forgot to put on the list but I think is worth mentioning, especially if this is the only distributed episode you've ever Listened to. If you are one of the finalists or even if you have the callback, there's a decent chance we've checked out your social media. So just know that. Don't be insane social media, unless that's the character you're trying to play.

1:14:26

And I would say also, don't. Don't let that get in your head. You know, I talked to an actor who I'd cast in something and told her that we looked at her social media and then I noticed, like, she changed to social media to be, like, more professional. I don't just need headshots and stuff. Like, I want to know what you look like for normal. You know what I mean? Because, like, we're not really.

1:14:47

Yeah. Sometimes when you're trying to sell through an actor because. And someone's like, we don't like their hair. You're like, well, look at their hair here and here and here. Just that we find on Instagram.

1:15:10

Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, we're not going to show them, you know, the, the selfie where you're making a goofy face.

1:15:18

The party bus.

1:15:28

Yeah. If it's all party bus.

1:15:29

You're on a party bus business. Yeah, yeah.

1:15:32

Then, then, then I hope that you're. You, you give party bus in your auditions. But like, a little bit of variety of like, oh, okay, like, cool, you were in a play. Awesome. You're doing a short film. There you are with your friends. Oh, that's cool. Your day job is this. All that stuff is kind of like, nice to just understand and humanize you a little bit and, and see how you present in other environments.

1:15:34

Yeah. This thing I'm shooting in a couple weeks. I was looking at the actress that was cast. Her tick tock, and she's a really, like, good dancer, like, and she like, taught dance classes and stuff during COVID like on Zoom and stuff. And I was like, we should incorporate like, some of these moves into the character. I think it'll be fun.

1:15:58

Has social media ever hurt an actor you were trying to cast?

1:16:17

Yes, I did a shoot for. It was like a PSA for like, and gambling thing. And they did full background checks on every actor and if they said anything political.

1:16:21

Yeah.

1:16:32

On their social media for or against the current administration, they were out.

1:16:32

Yeah, I mean, gambling, lottery stuff that has, like, more regulation. I think you tend to be a little bit more strict on that stuff. So. Yeah, I think that's, that's valid.

1:16:38

I do think you and I tend to deal with more experienced actors that know not to do that.

1:16:50

Your socials are public. They can help mostly rare that they hurt. But be a real person, you know? Like, it doesn't have to all be, you know, one type of content.

1:16:55

Yeah.

1:17:07

Can I say something a little weird? Sometimes we're. We're casting, like, young actors, and this happens more with women than men, but it happens with both and everything in between. If you are, like, a fitness person, if you are, like, if your physical appearance is part of what you're selling, that is okay. But it's weird to be like, hey, I think this person could be really good for this spot. And then everything is you working out or in a bathing suit.

1:17:07

Right.

1:17:39

Do you hear what I'm saying? Like, if it's all kind of like. Like skimpy glamour shots, it's a little bit harder to. Like, it feels a little not safe for work.

1:17:40

Yeah.

1:17:51

You see what I'm saying?

1:17:52

Yes. I think that if. I think we do cast a lot of models, and if that is, like, what you do professionally, like, you're, you know, where cloth. You're in magazines and catalogs and.

1:17:53

But also, like, sprinkle. It's a little bit of fitness, and it's a little bit of swimwear, and it's a little bit of office wear or what? You know, it shows you have, like, a breadth of work. I think sometimes when you just start out, you only have, like, a couple different kind of editorial shoots, and so that feels like it's everything. I think if it's just one flavor, especially if it's like a very distinct flavor, like swimwear or something like that, it just kind of. You end up getting pigeonholed a little bit, you know, even if that's the work you're. You're best suited for and want more of, you know?

1:18:06

Yeah, totally. I think, and I'm trying to think. My wife's social media is probably 30% on set premieres, film stuff, and 70% kids, family, restaurants, you know, and look, it's hard.

1:18:40

I. I only post about work on my main feed, and so I. I need to practice what I'm preaching here. Like, it's all the podcast and, like, set selfies, but that's. Cause I don't want to post about my kids. We've talked about it. Who cares?

1:18:56

Yeah, but you'll post something interesting. I mean, if you see something funny in society, yeah, you'll post about it. And our buddy Michael Ryan Fagan, he's always posting funny things he's seeing around town. So same with Tom. Tom Morris Carlin Well, I like to dabble in a little life personality stuff. Yeah. Well, let us know if we missed anything on casting. We're going to do another episode about how to be an actor on set. The primer for on set, I believe it's going to be much shorter because you, you disagree. But I agree. Yeah. That acting, being a professional actor is mostly about getting jobs.

1:19:11

I agree with that. I am doubting our ability to record a short episode.

1:19:52

Oh, yeah. I, I, you might be right about that. But I do think that there are so many amazing actors in this world and what separates the ones that do it for a career and the ones that don't as the ones that do it for career know how to get jobs, the more people will pay them. And that's kind of what this episode was about.

1:19:56

You know, what we didn't talk about is headshots. So maybe next time we'll talk about headshots as well. Because I think it makes a big difference.

1:20:13

Yeah.

1:20:20

Though it does make a huge difference.

1:20:20

Nowadays I think I'm barely ever interacting with headshots.

1:20:22

Yes. But casting I think still is, you know, and, and I think we're interacting with headshots in more ways than we realize.

1:20:27

Yeah. I mean, I think by the time they get to us, their headshot has gotten them through.

1:20:33

Sure.

1:20:38

And I do also click on the actor profile. So if you, by the way, I have a lot of headshots on your actor's profile.

1:20:38

Yeah.

1:20:44

I love to see all the different looks, especially when I think the look you wore to the audition, like your hairstyle, your lighting or glasses, whatever, isn't quite right. I like to see some other options. So anyhow, it's useful. Do we do an unpaid endorsement on this episode?

1:20:44

I think so. Let's do it.

1:21:02

Yeah.

1:21:03

Unpaid endorsements. New listeners. If, if you're unfamiliar, this is the part where Oren and I talk about a thing that we like. This is a two part endorsement. One obvious people are going to roll their eyes. Lots of people already saw it. Hail Mary's great. It's really fun.

1:21:04

You saw it?

1:21:21

I saw it.

1:21:22

One of my favorite books I've read in the last five years that I

1:21:23

did see it in 40x and as a 40x evangelist, I think it is fine, actually. It does a thing where you're in space and you're rocking around in the crazy parts and then sometimes it's, it goes, goes quiet and you're not shifting much at all. So like it's not, it's no twisters in terms of a 40x film that doesn't. That's a different experience than whether or not it's a good movie movie though there is one single water blast and it's gross. And I always like it when they go gross with the water.

1:21:26

Right. Because for they blast you with water,

1:22:01

they will blast you with water. And if it's like spit or vomit or snot, that's always funnier to me because, and this is early in the movie, the audience is reminded of what they're in for. We've all seen movies before. But then you sit down and the chair starts moving. You're like, whoa. And then you get squirt in the face with water and then you're on a roller coaster for a few seconds and then there's a quiet moment and we all get to giggle together and realize we've just strapped in for a different experience. So it's a delight. I've Talked enough about 40x. The other thing I will recommend that is Hail Mary adjacent is the set. The space station or spaceship that Ryan Gosling spends most of the movie on is a practical set. And Adam Savage does a very nerdy 10 minute deep dive on the practical aspects of the set with the set designer. And, and he shows you how it's all modular and they custom printed and crafted every single console and screen. It's all practical screens, it's all practical buttons and they're all on dmx so you can change any color on any button for the entire corridor of the ship. And it is just a mass of wires and wireless controls and labels. And if you care about that stuff, it is so satisfying and nerdy and.

1:22:03

Where did you see this? On YouTube.

1:23:32

It's on Adam Savage's Tested YouTube channel.

1:23:33

Yeah.

1:23:36

So it's not super polished. It's just like Adam and the camera guy and they're talking nerdy stuff. But I really enjoyed it. I don't think there are any spoilers in it, but it does take away a little bit of the magic. You're reminded that it's not a real spaceship that he's on. So maybe watch it after you see the film. But that's, that's, that's my endorsement.

1:23:37

That's cool. Yeah. I mean a lot of people are talking about the practicalness of so many things, including the alien and stuff, that it's a puppet and. Yeah, I'm so excited to watch that movie and I'm maybe I kind of

1:23:58

regret not seeing it.

1:24:10

40x is a big 70 millimeter at Vista. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to take my daughter Winter.

1:24:11

I think you could swing it. It's like sad and there's peril and stuff, but I think she could. Should handle it. She could handle it. I think.

1:24:17

Great. I have, I've been kind of on this little kick of trying to fix everything that's broken in my house. And you know, I think we all always want to do that, but you get the list. It gets like so long and then you just like, you're like, I'm never going to do this. But now every day I try to just fix one thing. And I'm sure everybody knows this, but maybe if you're like a renter or you know, maybe, I don't know, maybe somebody doesn't know about this, but I've been like converting all our cabinets that aren't soft clothes. The soft clothes.

1:24:25

Ooh, so good.

1:24:53

Because you know, you can when you get a new cabinet nowadays or drawers that are so, you know, usually they come with these soft close hinges where you slam a cabinet and it catches itself or a drawer will like not slam. But if you have old cabinets, like we have a bunch of old ones, you can just get these like at Home Depot, like a soft closed cabinet door damper. You can get like a two pack for $8. And you kind of only need one per cabinet door. It kind of depends the size. If it's like a big pantry door, you need to. But yes, I've been happily doing it and seeing if my family notices. And the answer is no, they do not notice. Even though, like, have you not noticed it's way quieter in the house now because you're not slamming doors.

1:24:55

I was thinking about. I'm on a real gardening kick. You know, it's spring and I've been at home a lot and I've been just trying to like literally touch grass. And I, it occurred to me, I was like, what will happen when I'm done? Like, eventually I'll get through everything, every little project that I want to do. And A, then I'll just have to do it again. And B, like that's the whole point. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's a, it's always a work in progress and like enjoying that and relishing that is the good stuff. Spicy?

1:25:33

Yeah. You know I have this new shed, right? Photo?

1:26:06

Yeah, you did something. You sent me photos.

1:26:08

I ran power to it now and I put yesterday I put like a. I changed out the light switch for like a motion detector switch. Now you just like open the, open the Shed wall, shed doors. And you walk in and these. The.

1:26:09

Oh, it turns on. I have these Lutron, they go. They mount over your traditional light switch. And it's a. It's a dial. So it's like a fader dial like you would normally do, but there's no. No insulation to them. And that's. They're smart. So if you have smart bulbs, you can use one switch to turn the entire room off or dim it up or dim it down.

1:26:21

Oh, that's cool.

1:26:42

They're great. Yeah, they're really great.

1:26:43

I'm not on the smart bulb train yet, but I believe I will eventually be there.

1:26:45

I'm surprised you're not by now. I think it's a. It's the center of the Venn diagram between you and your wife's home decor interests.

1:26:49

Well, my wife is anti tech and home decor. She doesn't even like LED lighting.

1:26:58

Just wait till you can tell her like color to like build a preset and you can be like Alexa party mode. And then like everything's like. Yeah, I don't that.

1:27:02

But you could use.

1:27:13

You could hit the app too. You do like party mode on the app and like all of a sudden all of your lightscaping is instantly ready to go.

1:27:14

Yeah. He was annoyed that I turned the volume up on our TV with my phone the other day. That's where she is on home automation.

1:27:23

Yeah. You know, I feel like this. The theme of this episode is our wives are smarter than we are. So more power to her maybe.

1:27:29

Well, speaking of this episode, we'd love to hear your thoughts on anything that we've talked about. You can email us@justmail.com you can find us on social media. Usshootepod. I'm on Instagram Kaplan.

1:27:36

And I'm Rmadallo. This episode was edited by Kevin Oyang, produced by Tyler Schmall and our social media is done by Lily Bouvier. Thanks to you all. And you're listening to music provided by the Free Music Archive and the artist Jazzar. Thanks, everyone. Good night.

1:27:47

Bye.

1:28:01

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