The Most Extremely Trans Healthcare Ban You've Never Heard Of

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human Welcome to Ika Daff and here a podcast about things falling apart and how to put them back together again. I am your host Mia Wong and Today we are going to be talking about Frankly the largest and most draconian trans healthcare band in the country and And the unexpected place that well, I don't know if unexpected is the right word, but the ignored Place that it's it's come from and with me with me to talk about about this band is David Forbes Who is an editor and a journalist with the trans news network David welcome to the show? Always good to be here. I Once again back to my I wish I could have people on the show to talk about like cool and normal things, but You know we get that sometimes this is not one of those stories. I mean we're trans journalists in a dying empire Yeah, so speaking of bad things happening in Dying empires. Do you want to take us sort of to the start of this healthcare ban and What we're even talking about here because it's not a government healthcare ban in the way that I think people expect No, and and that's actually really important all this story because a lot of the attention in healthcare bands has been on governments yeah, and occasionally Hospitals like secular hospital systems Refusing to provide care because they're scared of the federal government So it's been a perpetrators a fight between governments or a fight over stuff happening at legislatures and to be clear that stuff is absolutely important Yeah, yeah however This ban Wasn't put in place by a legislature It's not any institution that people have even the facade of an ability to really influence in on November 12th 2025 a complete and total trans healthcare ban medications as well as surgeries Adults as well as youth was put in place throughout every healthcare system run by the Catholic Church in the US Yeah, and that has not really like I don't know like I've talked about it like we've mentioned it on the show before I don't know if I've really seen any other like systemic large-scale coverage of it I mean there were like a couple of articles when it came out But other than TNN like this has been Almost completely ignored even though it is more draconian than any any healthcare ban That has gone into effect Anywhere in the country it is a it's again as you said this yes This is a total healthcare ban for children and adults. Yes, and for all all types of trans healthcare Yeah for everything. Yeah, and and that's the thing so then I've honestly been a little surprised by that even old and cynical as I am But TNN as far as I know is one of the only outlets including a queer and trans media I won't say the only but one of the only that has done Ongoing coverage on this let alone in-depth extensive. What are the roots of this? How did we get here? Yeah kind of coverage? I've done two articles on it and Those were in December so a few weeks after it passed We kind of went in detail on what it meant and the implications of which are were and have proven to be pretty horrifying Yeah, and also the Catholic Church is pretty horrific history as an institution Well individual Catholics have a as we'll get to have a wide range of beliefs including on trans rights the institution itself has Always been highly abusive highly reactionary and incredibly opposed to our very existence and that just hasn't changed is actually escalating and Then we did one just last week that was on The actual impact like we talked to trans people around the country who've encountered the impact of the bishops ban as I've heard a Few folks call it and I've called a few times myself and what it means for their lives in the ground So I guess there's two points we should hit immediately one is sort of how this happened And like how this ban sort of came together and was voted on by like who and the second one is how many people this affects because I think This is the part that's really been ignored, which is that like Catholic hospitals. It's not like they're running like ten of these I mean it would be bad if they were running ten of these But this is a significant part of the entire US healthcare system. Yes a massive part of it Yeah, so I think that that's very important to kind of touch on so this was passed in November at the US Conference of Catholic bishops, which they have regular meetings and decide policies and stuff And it's one of the things and this is gonna be a recurring theme and this is the degree to which I think Even people think of themselves as progressives and fairly left have kind of bought hook line and sinker some of the propaganda And it is overwhelmingly propaganda Coming out of the Catholic Church since the mid 2010s when Pope Francis got in so You were seeing from this conference the big news and a lot of progressive circles was oh well They made this statement against the Trump administration immigration. Yeah, but here's the thing that was a statement Mm-hmm, certainly it's you know better than if they supported ice, but it was a symbolic step largely Yeah, like they didn't even do like the very baseline thing Which would be like ex-communicating JD vans a thing they could do and did it because they're fucking cowards. Yeah But they didn't even do that. Yes, and we're gonna get back to that and often worse than cowards Yeah, so at this conference that got most the headlines, but they also passed this very draconian anti-trans health care ban Yeah, it passed overwhelmingly. This was not like some narrow victory by the conservative faction No, it was almost everyone it passed 206 to 7. Yeah Jesus Christ Interestingly it was interesting listening to some of the proceedings of this which may not be great for mental health But was quite informative. Yeah, and one of the one of the bishops involved Robert Barron Cited to Pope Francis who was held out even sadly by some queer media as being this you know step forward for queer and trans rights, which I think was completely a farce held it out his rampant transphobia, which was always very clear about mm-hmm and quoted him saying that Viewed the existence of trans people they use the far right term gender ideology as and I quote Repugnant to the Bible and to our tradition You could not ask for a more clear statement of hatred and extermination against trans people Yeah, I mean that's it that this is not an institution that you know is slowly but surely getting better This institution that outside of the PR is getting worse Yeah, is digging in on doing real a very reactionary harm and so the effects of that were pretty devastating and immediate I mean we'll get into some folks who dealt with stuff later that same month due to this ban I'm in a little bit, but like the Catholic Church's healthcare networks are massive by some estimates 1 in 6 1 in 7 of all people in the US go through a Catholic healthcare system at some point in a given year Yeah, it doesn't just include a few hospitals includes is an incredibly sprawling network of Clinics and specialists and doctors practices plenty of them are not outwardly Catholic even so yeah People may be going to a practice owner of the Catholic Church and not even be aware of it It's also expanding it's taking over and buying out previously secular practices And this is you know a multifaceted problem it goes along with cuts in federal aid It goes along with yeah general like capitalist fervor that kind of grips Secular health there's as well So if they cut services the Catholic Church often buys them up and expands so it affects everyone in that Yeah, everyone who deals with that and the Catholic Church has never been pro-trans remotely But previously prior to this ban there was kind of a hodgepodge and some local ambiguities and there were cases We'll get into some of them a second where local pro-trans Catholics or folks working at those networks Could indeed provide pretty substantial trans care through like one ambiguity or loophole or another that just ended all of it Yeah, so throughout that entire network in some states and once you wouldn't necessarily think including you know ones like Oregon of Washington That are ostensibly supposed to have like pretty strict trans health care protections Catholic hospitals Comprise like over a third of hospital beds and I think Washington is over 40% So we're talking about of healthcare beds. We're talking about a substantial Part of the American healthcare system four and ten of the largest healthcare networks are Catholic That's how extensive this was and now trans health care is banned in all of them. Absolutely. Yeah And that's something that has an absolutely massive Rolling impact, right? Because again, it's it's not just that it's like Outwardly Catholic hospitals and something I think you're gonna talk about more later But it's also like it's people who have the health care plans through like something that's affiliated with the church There are all of these ways in which You know suddenly just enormous numbers of people had their health care taken away effectively overnight Because the primary way that anti-trans Healthcare repression has been understood has been through the state level and I understand why it's like that because Like a lot of it has been coming from the state both on I use this where you get into confusing American terminology But but both in terms of the federal government and the state state level governments, right? Like we people there's been a huge focus on that but yeah, the the distribution of The Catholic health care system is cutting through the lines of what of what people sort of had previously assumed to be safe Yes, and this is something that is a threat to trans people effectively everywhere and it's it's compounding as you're talking about earlier with the sort of crisis of Affordability and coverage because a lot of these yes healthcare clinics and hospitals and practices Are the ones that are actually covered by insurance? Yes, and then you can you can to switch to like their secular ones But you can't go to them because they're not covered by your fucking insurance So they're unbelievably expensive and this gets to a reality that goes through a lot of our coverage Which is that trans people are an overwhelmingly working class demographic? Yeah, I don't think that gets said enough. It doesn't get picked even in some queer and trans media but that is incredibly important here I began the the second story with an interview that we published with an interview with Beth who's a trans woman the Midwest and Found it nearly impossible to find health care outside of their networks because like a lot of trans people Beth has an ACA plan and Because the secular networks are a little more expensive some cases a lot more expensive The ACA plans that are available to most trans people You know that they can remotely afford don't cover health care there So you kind of have to and then they don't provide your health care at all Yeah, and in that case this was someone she'd been going Across state borders which she noticed kind of wild to get health care anyway to go to plan parenthood Finally thought that she had found a practice closer to home went there before the bishops ban like right before it hit They've seemed very welcoming she knew other trans people that had gotten a care there before and Everything seemed great goes back after the ban and it's like oh, I'm sorry. We can't help you and this wasn't a practice that was Obviously Catholic idea didn't no giant cruise fix or anything hanging on it Yeah, it was just one that was in oh, it's a doctor's office Some other trans you've gotten care there beats driving at least an hour each way if not more Yeah, again, you know when you're working glass a two-hour, you know round-trip commute is a lot That's you know, especially with gas being up more like mm-hmm That's a lot of money and it's green things even further and so She had to go back to traveling across state But you know, I think some folks assume and she points out like oh you just go to another provider You often can't there's not that option. Yeah, there isn't one even in some fairly major cities There is not that option unless you have a lot more money or health care through a fairly well-healed employer When a lot of us don't You know, this is another one of the problems here, which is that trans people are overwhelmingly working class? It is One of the worst demographics of poverty rate of any of like any demographic group in the US Yes, the unemployment levels are like like this was like 23 back when the economy was like working Was like 1936 Great Depression levels. Yes, incarceration rates education rates. It's all among the poorest of the poor. Yeah Yeah, it's all Apocalyptically bad. Yeah Then there is the issue and this is an issue that we've covered on the show from from other lenses, which is that like Yeah, like we're dealing with these like large-scale waves of hospital closures Yeah, and the less hospitals that exist in an area and particularly in the sort of working class areas where these people are living Right the more those hospitals close because those are the ones that are closing because they're losing a whole bunch of funding from the government Yeah, and you know, there's like there's a series of other economic pressures there The more those options disappear the more reliant people are on on these Catholic hospitals Which have just implemented an adult health care ban. Yeah, like the Republicans in Congress aren't pushing that right now. No, like I Cannot emphasize how unbelievably draconian and reactionary this is. Yes Well, and also they're doing it the same time that you have Major progressive media figures legislators praising the current Pope mm-hmm For uttering some words about universal health care, they don't practice universal health care They're not just with trans people but definitely not trans people It's like they have the money to like they could yeah, and they don't like there's a story in investigating this they really set out to me and it was from a Pharmacy intern basically someone who's studying to be a pharmacist and did a you know a stint a training stint in a Catholic hospital right before the bishop span hit and said that they were doing at least one gender affirming procedure a week Jesus Christ a week and That actually, you know This was someone who had dealt with the four and had not got great experiences and was actually heading into this You know kind of this 12 week extent Expecting to have to deal with you know the problems of being a trans person with a religious institution Mm-hmm, I actually said no that this this particular hospital the folks who work there were super pro-trains super accepting They were actively providing trans care and mentioned even because it was a moral area and that's that's that alone There was you know a gender affirming care procedure most weeks Should be a reminder that a lot of trans people also don't live in major cities Yeah, they live in smaller cities in small towns rural areas even by a mile actually The region of the US with the largest trans population is the south Yeah, and the Midwest is very closely tied with the West which includes the West Coast for second So they mentioned that there's this was the senseless of the staff like look if you're in LA Okay, there's a bunch of Catholic hospitals a bunch of other ones too So the people seeking out Catholic hospitals may be a bit more conservative There are more likely to be other alternatives now so healthcare access me a problem there too But in war era the kind of staff had a sense look if we don't do it no one else will yeah And so they didn't be pretty pro-trans the loophole they used the ambiguity I guess the person they used was if an insurer Secular otherwise said hey this procedure is necessary. They didn't question it and under the previous pre-bishop span situation There was kind of that bit of that leeway. Yeah, this is an example of you know Some of them Catholic pro-trans folks in a royal area Yeah, actually doing some real good and then because they kind of maneuvered in this gray area and this band just completely ended that yeah They also described because they actually had top surgery scheduled at this same hospital and the band hit and They're very thankful to the doctor who did you know surgeries at that hospital who intentionally just kind of kept them on the schedule Incredible incredible. Yeah, but like we need way more of that But also it just got a lot more difficult and a lot more hurdles where we're placed in the way of that so like What was happening just got cut off? Yeah, and this is also a really a superly significant issue because trans healthcare Is already even before this, you know like the wait list for think for things like top surgery things like bottom surgery or Years long even in places that have like quote-unquote like good healthcare, right? Like even in places like Oregon or like yeah, you know a place like LA like you're dealing with multi-year wait list to get these procedures Yeah, and suddenly like a seventh of all the people doing this are just gone and that just contributes even if you can get and some places half Yeah, yeah, and the number of people who do these procedures is so small that if you are looking to get these procedures Like you can talk to the trans people in your area and they will know every single doctor who does it Yeah, right. Yes, because there's like three maybe if you're lucky There's like three usually there's like one like even on the HRT front sometimes Yeah, and I can speak from experience on this, you know, it's often kind of a icebreaker of like Oh, you know which medical practice is giving you your HRT down? Maybe three if you're lucky. Yep, and that's maybe for a whole region. Yeah, and You know a lot of trans people maybe even most live outside of what you think of a few you know major metropolis But also there was a while I was looking into this there was a case in 2017 before the Bishop span Where a Catholic hospital in California which on paper at least has fairly strong Trans health care protections for the US. Yeah, where a priest with no medical experience comes in last minute Vito's the top surgery for a trans man Jesus and they kick him out on the streets still on the drugs the pre-surgery drugs the fuck Jesus Christ, he sued them rightly. Yeah, like this is this is a hospital in New York, California We could go into it a little bit in the story So like that was happening before but that's not everywhere Yeah, and the few cases like the hospital that that we mentioned where there were folks working around that to still provide some health Care that's probably gone now. I would say it's almost certainly gone unless folks are really just breaking the rules Which they should yeah, you know, but this is sort of the systemic problem with Having the church hierarchy having control over these health care institutions Which is that yes, even if you are just like in the institution trying to do good and you believe in the right thing You're trying to do the right thing. It doesn't matter. Yeah, because Suddenly just the hammer can come down on you from above and even if you keep doing it, right? There's always just the risk that like they're just gonna fire you all at best. It is highly precarious Yeah, yeah, and it's it's this really kind of I don't know this kind of like brutal Demonstration of the reality that in a hierarchical institution It kind of doesn't matter what the people on the bottom believe because at the stroke of a pen 200 reactionaries who run your fucking institution can just come in and be like no fuck you none of you get health care Yeah, well and not just that but run a substantial amount of the entire American health care system. Yeah. Yeah I mean, and this is actually why and this is a larger factor. I have Survived the literal fundamentalist Christian violence when I was when I was younger And I think this is actually something which we'll probably into a little bit like I've never gotten the aversion Especially from queer and trans organizations to criticize their institutions I didn't always used to be this way, but it's definitely been in this way Including on this issue. Mm-hmm. Cuz you know, you will look in vain For a major national organization. That's like taking the Catholic Church at Haskell for this. Yeah Once with millions of budgets, you know, apparently they're higher ups. They're too busy You know taking first-class flights and yeah raking in nearly a million dollars a year while trans people can't find jobs, you know But like, yeah So I've never gotten the aversion because for a lot of us on the ground For a lot of us who are among the the many many many trans people that are working glass that live outside some of the like, you know, handful metropolis that we often get depicted as exclusively living in Fundamentals violence, you know to be and to be clear from plenty of like Protestant evangelicals as well. Yeah Never stopped it never stopped being a very serious and real threat. Their numbers have gone down since the 90s You know in the early 2000s. Yeah, but it's never stopped being something you really have to Have to account for whether it's institutional even if it's totally illegal, they'll still do it like they did in california or literal like street violence literally like people attacking you with weapons So I think that's definitely a factor in all this and I think it's a sad factor in why folks haven't heard about it And you know in some of the stuff I've talked about before on the show and elsewhere I've mentioned that I think that whatever in the intent behind it the gay ink as it were the structure of you know, these Larger non-profits, which you can send down like the local and state level at some points That kind and the culture from them that kind of is more sad is cool more so it just kind of dictates a lot of like Official at least queer and trans politics. Yeah has been a disastrous failure And I think that's even you know even more apparent here This is again the largest most draconian trains healthcare around the u.s. It's already happened already in place And you will look in vain for any organizing from these issues. They're supposed to protect trans rights against it Yeah, there aren't like big lawsuits being filed. There's not like you know exposes being run They have far more resources than they are, you know worker run newsroom We do a lot with what we have we encourage people to support us But like they have a lot more resources to make those things a large national issue They have chosen not to and a lot of people are going to suffer for that are suffering for that Yeah, and and I should mention too on an actual policy level like a full-scale healthcare ban on adult trans healthcare Is like hideously unpopular like there's a reason the republicans haven't done it. Yeah, right because it's not popular So this is like this is a winning issue Yes, right and they won't fucking take up the fight because they're too busy glazing the papacy Not just them. I mean progressives in general are are lately glazing the papacy way too much Yeah, and it's just this issue that trickles down too to like The fact that the sbc right the southern bathis convention the fact that there hasn't been a sort of broad-scale offensive against them You know, even though they've been like also massive problem. Yeah Yeah, driving like all of this shit for fucking ages and they were like, you know There was a point like a couple of years ago, but they were genuinely seriously weakened by their series of like of internal beef scandals yes, and like even though like these are like the church groups that are also backing the healthcare bans on The legislative level. There's no sort of political will to actually Go to war with the right wing churches that are doing this stuff Well, so and this is an interesting difference And it relates to what we were just talking about the sentiments I hear among trans folks on the ground, you know Working-class trans folks. It's pretty anti-clerical like to put it to put it mildly. It tends to be More gentry types, especially ones more in scots institutions or like, you know, official political culture the gang stuff We've been mentioning that have more of this aversion and I will have to say it wasn't always this way I am old enough to remember when Queer organizing taking aim at mocking even directly going the attack against suing definitely religious institutions was a pretty common fixture A prominent example and I deal with this in the earlier piece as well as touching on the more recent one was act ups 1989 stopped the church action Which you imagine a queer or doing an action with that title today in which case they militantly disrupted Services of st. Patrick's cathedral in new york because of the ridiculous homophobia of the catholic church and its role in the asian sides yeah, and if there's some video of this that we that we linked in that first story from act ups archives and I find the signs hilarious, but there's stuff that you would immediately see tone policing about Even from some trans queer and trans media today Yeah, you know, oh, we shouldn't alienate normies all this all that and no hey There was a big backlash the time a huge one the president condemned it You know the federal officials condemned it a congress critters condemned it, you know, there was this giant attack This was unacceptable beyond the pale it also worked the catholic church did start backing off their stances because they didn't want to be attacked more and I think it's a good example that Stop looking at the damn polls and just fight them. Yeah, you know It's generally a much better approach And I think I have to say I think part of this As you've seen especially with how You know the co-option of some of the results of of equal marriage when you saw after that era Gay in groups use that to become like the predominant force and gay keep a lot of other organizing In queer and trans activism You saw this backing away from ever criticizing religious institutions Yeah, I mean the advocate named pope francis in 2013 their person of the year Yeah, and like this is the guy who said that she said that gender ideology is more dangerous to the world the nuclear weapons Yes Again, you individual Catholics have their own sets of beliefs and differ some are very obviously pro-trans But like the institution is very unequivocal on this it has never stopped being that And long-term journals covering the catholic church, you know caution that look the term they used was changing the tone but keeping the same music for francis's papacy. Yeah And leo is very much in that and I think that actually opens up a weakness because With the you know revelation of the horrific levels of serial child abuse within the catholic church with the you know atrocities on massive scales involvement indigenous genocide with the attacks in the 80s and 90s and 2000s about their homophobia and the role in the ancient sides as well like There was actually starting to be this giant institution despite how hierarchical and unaccountable is starting to be on the back foot and You know in some places like ireland this has led to its its power numbers being like taking a massive hit so There was a shift like any institution to give a Kinder face and the depressing thing is that among a lot of people should know better. It's largely work Yeah, and I really wish you would be less taken in by symbolism. Yep. It's also like de facto a theocracy Because uh, one of the people we talked to allison Would try to get testosterone right off the bishop's band They're not catholic their doctor isn't catholic their pharmacy is not catholic. Yeah So you'd think okay. Well, you should be able to no no no The insurance that their spouse had was technically provided through a catholic health care network Yeah So it took them months before they finally got the testosterone not in so now they have to pay out a pocket for it They can for the time being but for working class trans people That's one more cost on top of everything else and eventually those are costs you often can't bear So like that that's the reality. Yeah And the realities is is unaccountable through theocratic rule Yeah in areas where it's not supposed to be happening Exactly. Well, and potentially any area, you know, if you have a secular practice today Delivers you HRT no issue. Yeah It could get bought out by one of these networks tomorrow. Yep Why the fuck do these religious institutions have the ability to influence like health care at all? Yeah, right. This is something you you would think would be Not a place where Someone else's religion can suddenly yeah and not even like that person's religion. It's like The religious hierarchy of a church should not be able to dictate whether someone gets health care and yet Yeah, this goes well beyond the you know, even Supposed power in a secular society that you know religious issues that I have all we can you know They can make this pronouncement that applies to those who believe in that religion Or that that specific denomination or institution or whatever No, this is affecting plenty of people who have never set foot in in a catholic church Yeah Who are remotely catholic even the providers that they're going to aren't catholic They and this is still happening because that's the kind of sway and power they have and it's not been seriously challenged Including by liberals and even to me leftist and you mentioned the southern Baptist convention earlier It isn't just the catholic church, but because of the sheer Scale and the centralized nature of its hierarchy They are certainly probably the single most damaging institution on this front The sbc is a problem while they operate on far too vast a scale. They don't operate in the scale the catholic church does Yeah, and this is like this is you know fundamentally like part of the issue here is just it's just There's a I don't know if advantage is the right term here, but like the centralization of the catholic church relative to Like the sort of divided Protestants and nominations allows them to wield power Yes, like collectively in a way that Is a lot harder for something like the sbc where just like it just doesn't have the scale that Like that that the church does and like that the catholic church doesn't because the catholic church is This large is able to just buy out this much of the hospital system And then because of the of the top-down structures where the bishops can just go and vote and do and implement the stuff It's a really really really significant Problem. Yes, that is just not being dealt with This is not a problem that you can just like snap your fingers and solve by like running stuff through a state legislature No, like you actually have to go after the institution. You have to fight them on their ground Yes, and also this is you know, it's it's kind of what I ended the december piece with but also it's something I've emphasized in the second one Anyone who wants any kind of liberatory future regardless of whatever their personal beliefs are Anti-clericalism has to be part of it That's not the same as being against every individual of a certain religion It is specifically against this kind of theocratic hierarchy and its power over people's lives You do not get to anything remotely liberatory without directly attacking and challenging that and for too long That struggles largely been abandoned and not shockingly fundamentalist of various varieties and to be honest primarily christian fundamentalists have played a major role in american fascism and in stripping rights from entire groups And it's interesting because you mentioned the the council bishops side this But that's true, but it gets even more centralized than that The you know progressive pope that's getting praised for you know condemning the iran war and it's always condemning or statements or this or that Yeah, the galley church is still kind of an absolute theocratic monarchy in some ways You know, he could just say hey american bishops don't do that like i'm overruling you you do have to provide trans health care under whatever Circumstances are ideally all of them He's chosen not to and if you look at his history of transphobia before he became pope It's not particularly surprising Yeah, I think sort of like the the very baseline kind of anti clerical stance here is like The moment Your religion is able to dictate the behavior of people who are outside of it. Yes, you you have crossed the line into sort of like in into this kind of clerical role in ways that I think everyone should be Like deeply opposed to yes, like universally that should be regarded as yeah unacceptable and oppressive Yeah, and this is what we're dealing with here Which is that when there isn't this you know because like we talk a lot about sort of this the separation of church and state Which has always been kind of a joke in the us to like a broad extent right but like you know There are like other spheres that exist in our lives, right? There's you know, like there are economic spheres there are health-care spheres there are like social spheres and You know like the fact that a church can just be like no fuck you and cut off Unbelievable numbers of trans people from their health care in a way that even the sort of like right-wing theocrats in Office wouldn't be able to do Yes, is something that has to be that has to be opposed Because fuck that it does and I will add while you know Obviously and we deal with some in the story of you know an example of pro-trans folks At a catholic hospital even the catholic hospital overwhelmingly the staff were pro-trans. Yeah, but I do think And polls to the extent that they matter, you know do show repeatedly that opinion within Catholics themselves individually is pretty split on this there are yeah the substantial number who are pro-trans rides and pro-trans health care I also have to say though that at this point I think there is a specific obligation among them to speak up and act against this loudly, yeah And you know, I think the example of the the doctor who a lot of people I interviewed You know get around the band to get top surgery. I think that's the minimum Honestly, like yeah, like okay if you support trains rides start here because I think Pressure from that quarter as we've seen hits even harder on some of these institutions You know because while they claim to be this above everything kind of hierarchy We have seen worries about losing numbers of Catholics Being involved in the church has driven their decisions before and more pressure will drive them again Potentially, you know, like yeah, I think it will like what we've seen pretty clearly just in my lifetime Is when these institutions are under attack when folks go on the offensive against them culturally, you know socially with direct militant organizing like act up did Then we see some of our rights and liberation advance Shockingly quickly in some cases compared to where they were yeah, and when that is relaxed on when they are given space to gather power and plan and go back on the attack then Things get a lot worse very quickly. Yeah This can be fought the first part of fighting it is To talk about it to be vocal about to be loud and talk about how it is unacceptable I think frankly a lot of pressure can also be exerted on some of these gay incors. Yeah, like if they want any donations or any support I don't think they should get a lot of nation supporting I think there's better places to put it But if they don't want to become pariahs and queer and trans communities that needs to be the message like you need to fight this You need to fight this hearty and to fight this now Yeah, um because to do otherwise. I think it's just an act of Unforgivable cowardice and treason and wartime to kind of use a metaphor. Yeah, but you know We always end our pieces of tnn because I think I mean there was a joke about it I saw recently of like it is the sacred role of trans journalism to uh, you know Unnecessarily scare trans people beyond all measure And I think people should take that to heart that among like trans folks some trans journalism is getting that and I've termed these pieces Panic slop when they're badly sourced exaggerate something. Yeah. Yeah the day we're recording this The episode came out So I don't know if like if like some other unhinged thing has happened in between now and then and you're like, wow Why are you not mentioning like the public max executions of trans people or some shit? Like I don't know just like panics up like That's why because this is this is being recorded on the day in which our episode about this dropped But yeah, yeah Yeah, like this panic slop shit is just like yes But it's you know, it's become a real problem in some quarters and yeah, I you know, I think kind of it's to be a nerd like Any reckoning with conflict and even like the warfare level of conflict is always like you have to have accurate information You do know what actually is a threat. What is not? And I think communities under fire which we're all part of Yeah, have to have that even more so and especially now So I tried to exaggerate the very real threats and the catholic or she's been is definitely one of them But also like People have fought this stuff. They fought this stuff even when the odds looked more dire. It can be fought again Yeah, like during the age genocide exactly they fought them in one Yeah, exactly and it can be fought against again and one but it has to be fought and actually fought hard Yeah, but and I think I think the last thing I want to mention So this is something I say a lot with union organizing but like the people in act up who went and fought are just You yeah, there's nothing like special about them. They were just people who were forced to act Yeah, and who took up the fight and did it Yeah, and I think that actually kind of Can can't transmeet something that has been seen as a bad trend within trans communities I don't think that always is of like all trans communities like crucify their heroes too much They pillory people too much in a lot of cases if it's a public figure Yonkstar McBride that's done some some really terrible stuff. They're acting out of Frankly a just sense of grievance But also I think there should be a shift away from individual figures on pedestals from looking to like a set of leaders You know guide everyone else I think we're the strongest when the organizing is coming from everywhere. The fight is coming from everywhere. Yeah, it's not Singular figures and honestly, I think pedestals are bad for everyone involved But you know and doesn't know what you're saying like people can start acting now They don't need to you know, certainly I think it's good to pressure large organizations and figures with power partly because then it gives people a sense of empowerment as well as Occasionally fear works and they can see and you know something improves a little bit or something worse is avoided But also just for like it's just us y'all, you know, like yeah, that's what's going to have to solve this And that is why we start I don't know. I don't have a percentage on the episodes that we start with Things falling apart but also putting them back together again because we can And we can make it better. They're building something better entirely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah And on that note If people want to support trans news network, they can find out how to do so at trans news dot network we are a worker run nonprofit and kind of trying to Set a model for trans media that's in depth and hard hitting and unrepentantly radical Yeah, but that also is you know is goes in depth and investigate stuff and gives an accurate picture of what's going on Uh the threats but also real victories. Yeah And the the best reporting on us is going to be done by us Yes, so you can help make that possible We appreciate any support we get we do a stunning amount on a fairly shoestring budget. Yeah, it's unreal I appreciate that couple bit, but uh, yeah, it's an awesome crew of people. I am Incredibly fortunate to work with all of them. Yeah, and actually shout out to my editor my real is who did a great job of going through this piece And also has done some incredible coverage. But yeah, everyone who works at teen and I'm really fortunate to work with And you know, this is trying to set kind of an alternative in trans journalism that is worker run and is is underpanton. Hell, yeah You too can go to war with the bureaucrats and the theocrats and the politicians who are trying to destroy your life indeed It could happen here is a production of cool zone media for more podcasts from cool zone media Visit our website cool zone media dot com or check us out on the iHeart radio app apple podcast Or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions Thanks for listening trends come and go your skin barrier doesn't E45 lotion is effective science backed hydration for everyday use Lightweight fast absorbing and trusted to do what your skin needs. No fuss. 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