254. España en el nuevo mapa industrial europeo

Today, the word industry will be the moda. Europe urge to invest in reindustrialization, improve competitiveness and also improve the sectors more punters. Electrification, artificial intelligence, data, technologies, semiconductors. The question is if we are prepared to face this new challenge. So today, in No is the Fin of the World, we talk about Spain against the European European map. No es el fin del mundo, el podcast semanal del orden mundial. Los oyentes del streaming, del diferido de donde estén, estamos hoy en Bilbao. Vamos a presentar a quien nos acompañan. A mi derecha, Alba Liva. ¿Qué tal, Alba? Pues muy contenta de estar aquí en el Congreso Nacional de Industria, en Bilbao, que es una ciudad maravillosa, y atendiendo y aprendiendo mucho de todos los que están aquí, de todas las industrias que están presentes aquí. Here, your friends and trust, learning things about industry one more time. One more time. It's our day to day. Eduardo Saldaña, how are you, Eduardo? Well, I'm a little kid. Because you know that I'm a industrialist of life. The future will be industrialized or not. So, I'm very happy to be here and be able to talk with people who are dedicated to the art. Do you have to do art martial arts with a robot? Well, ayer the people of Siemens have a robot, but they have a helmet when we come. He's been able to sleep. He's a taekwondo, the robot, me they say. Yes, and you wanted to get him. He was, before we, Pedro Sánchez was talking, we can say that he was our telonero. It's possible. We're also talking about it. We're talking about it. It's correct. He's saying many things that we're going to comment. Yes. He's saying, he's got the guion, he's got the guion. Yes. At the end, for those who are listening from the far away, we're in the National Industry Congress here in Bilbao, who has invited us to make this episode. We're always looking at this type of bombardment. In fact, later will be with us the Minister of Industry and Tourism, Jordi Areu, who will be able to comment some things and ask questions that we can be interesting about the future of the industry. But first, we will start to start with us, also to give a little context. Let's basically start with where we do always do, which is why we are going to talk about a episode to basically situate Spain in that new industrial industrial european, especially what we want to try or talk exactly in the episode of today. Well, no is the end of the world. We've talked a lot of industry industry with the challenges of industrialization and also of the European competitiveness, especially from the energy sector, not so a general panorama of the industry, which is what we're going to do today. But we haven't seen much in where Spain encaises in this new panorama and we thought that it was interesting to bring it to the podcast. And also, in the context of the National Industry, we believe that being surrounded by people in the sector is a good place to deal with these issues. And ask ourselves what role we play in this industrialization, what are our strongholds, but also what abilities and what challenges we have, what is what we are doing well and what not, given the context that we manage. And at the end, we have to analyze these factors that is important to ask ourselves the question of what role we play in this new panorama industrial global. in relation to the future industrial that is going to be planned in Europe. And then we also have a little bit of the situation industrial that has Spain in a context of European industrialization, of industrialization, also a context in which we are not talking, and that is a change of paradigm very interesting, we are not talking only about that China is the great industrial rival, but I would say that since the final of the administration Trump, according to the administration Biden, it was also quite a bit of a year, But the United States is now a rival industrial much more aggressive than what was before. We've talked about, for example, the peak Airbus-Boeing with the industry. And we're talking about the inflation reduction. This is the mantra that we've said many times. Semiconductor. When Biden's French fries, then we're going to talk about that. And then with the Minister we'll be talking about how he looks. A little bit about how he looks. Because there are things that we have to put on the table. and say, hey, what do we do? Yes, in the industry today there is a lot of international context and in Spain, we have said many times, we have to think more about how our industry and our companies adapt basically to the world we have. That the industry no is done alone, there is no way to do it. And how is it doing Europe and what role we are doing there? Is it thinking in the periphery of the continent or more in the region franco-alemans? I think it is... Yes, there is a bit of that map of context, interests, that have different countries. That's what we're going to try to get there. And, above all, how Spain encaises in this situation. Let's go a little bit with the story. We're going to go on the text of the industrial revolution and all that. Because, when we talk about the industry in Spain, we always present or appear with a kind of second, In the second row, again, I think we all learned in the college that Spain is late to the Industrial Revolution and that countries like France, Germany, Belgium, in a lot of countries, have been very ahead of us. No so until which point this is exactly like, or above all, how encajamos, or how does the industry, the history of the Spanish industry, a little bit in the context of each moment? Vale, aquí antes de ir a ese punto concreto, porque también hay gente que nos estará escuchando en Spotify, que aquí tenemos una audiencia cualificada, pero quien se lo ponga, hay que tener algunos conceptos claros. Se va a explicar lo que te dé la gana, no lo que pregunta. Me da igual lo que me pregunte, Fernando. No, la cuestión es que sí que hay que explicar bien qué entendemos por industria, porque es lo que nos va a dar la clave de cómo fue todo ese proceso de industrialización en España y cómo nos adaptamos. As we know, the industry is an economic activity that is basically the transformation of materials primates or products semi-laborados in other products finales or intermediate. This is, geography, knowledge of the medium... Yes, yes, that's a classic. This, at the end, means that the secondary sector has all types of activities. As I'm sure, here, they basically dedicate them to them. From the most basic, like the chemical industry or the energy generation, to the construction, the textile industry, the common goods. Ayer I was talking about people with the industry, and all that kind of stuff. The key is that a country can have, and this is very important, a very important weight in the industry of its economy, but this doesn't mean that that industry is a punter or adapts to the needs of the moment. One thing is to talk about quantity and another, the quality of the industry. We have talked a lot of times, for example, in the 80s, the economy of the oriental, the Soviet Union, the RDA, There was a lot of industries, but the industry was lamentable and competitive. That was one of the reasons. That has happened, for example, to China, and now, for being a potency, a first potency to compete at the level of the United States, we have seen a tremendous change in the industry that it has from products of a low value to products more qualified. There is also a melon, that we can't get now, that the Chinese are not going to buy and we will have to eat it. But that's another thing. That's another podcast. Or podcast. It's a way, probably in a few years, the Made in China, we don't have to be asociated with clothes or glasses, but we're going to be thinking about smartphones, mobile phones, electric phones, and that's also a change. At the end, at the level of history or actual, atend simply to the weight of the industry in a country doesn't mean that that that is a power industry. We have to be atend much to the quality of that industry. And that's also very important to put it in. But, yeah, respond to your question, because I'm going to respond Siempre el rescate. Buena pregunta. Es cierto esto que comentábamos de que la industrialización en España fue algo tardía con respecto al resto de Europa, aunque algo interesante es que enseguida estuvo muy conectada con el panorama europeo. De hecho, no se entendería tampoco la industrialización en España sin mirar a las conexiones que tenían con el auge de la industria en Europa. Para que nos situemos, mientras que en el Reino Unido y otras partes de Europa la revolución industrial arranca ya a mediados del siglo XVIII, in Spain, that industrialization will not reach the end of the 19th century. And this is due to that these centuries were very concurs for the entire country. Yes, and there were many things. The war and independence against France. And we had here a Napoleon. We were killing French and we were liable. The perdition of the colonies in America. No was the territory for much to advance in the industry. Is this to not have industry in Spain? No, but it was much more residual, with a very artisan component. For example, in some sources the real factory of tapices or the stilier. Yes, the real factory, the crystal in the granja, all this as the first proto-industries. There was also a metal industry in the West, minas of Ulla in Asturias and a textile and algodonera in Catalonia quite powerful. It is to say, there were núcleos productivos with potential that with the time would be the ones that would be consolidating as the great industrial centers of the country. But it will be a much slower development than in the rest of Europe and will be, as I said, precisely alimentated by this. And then there were other centers that you can say, because in my city, there were some centers, but it was not a network, but it was a little bit disconnected, because there were some british ones. But with this, what did you say? What do you want to say? What are more things behind this? Of course, that at the end of this consolidation of the industry of Spain is thanks to, in good measure, the arrival of technical advances of other areas of Europe, the United States. For example, the famous machine of vapor that revolutionized the textile catalane industry. But to make us a reference to that retraso, if the first machine of vapor is invented in 1712, Spain has no arrived to 1773. It's a crazy. And at the end, the first machine of vapor is from 1832. It's a very late for what was happening in the rest of the country. We were 20 years old. We were a little Internet explorer of the industry in that era. Yes, exactly. But 120 years of not having that. It's a gap of growth and development very big that, thanks to God, we have put it all day. But you can see that advantage of the game. And you have to take in mind, not only the idea of the technical advances, but also the capital and the demand abroad. For example, many miners were bought by British or French companies and that allowed them to develop. In fact, there are many, and also many listeners, they will sound like the famous miners of Rio Tinto in Huelva, which was an historical exploitation that was acquired by the British capital that had that same name at the end of the 19th century. And I think that the most clear case, and here you will know 100%, is the of the Indian industry siderúrgica vasca, the famous altos hornos of Vizcaya, which was a sector that was consolidated thanks to the European demand, especially the British, of iron for its own industries. If the British needed iron, the Basque was a center of this material. And then, at the end, it became a European node of production and thanks also to the close to the carbon that had been used to carbon, which gave more competitiveness to have access to energy and to be able to produce very productive. Yes, and that here we are not going to get, but at the end the industry generated the capital, generated banks, which at the end the first banks in Spain were going to appear in the Basque Basque, in Catalonia, because it was where there was much more economic activity and those capitales that at the end you were able to move, that in the end when we say that when we look at that time, that time of industrialization in Spain, we always say that it was a bit periféric. It was, what we said before, concentrated in concrete regions, and in the periphery geological region of the country, and this also, and being a base of Spain, the periphery of Europe, like that was a bit of the periphery of the periphery. And this, obviously, has an impact, which still is seen today. It is that, I think, one of the most interesting points the history of the industry and see where the future is understanding the impact that has in the socio-political dynamics present. We would not understand the actual politics of the Spanish and the dynamics that we have without all that industrial process. For that we would have to understand the economic push that has and how it transformed a territory in the past and how it could transform it in the future. At the end, what we saw in that period is that there were great inequalities. Between those areas, those industrial industries were more prosperous and others were more linked to agriculture. It is true that that, at the end, it was a little bit more difficult to reduce these inequalities, but they continued. In fact, they tried to compensate, for example, with the famous industrial development. It was the most franquist. Yes, but there we saw that during that time, I do saltos temporales, but basically during the period franquista, we saw how in cities of all the Spanish territory, these countries were also to localize those industries within the territory. As we know, that also also alimented, that also increased the industrial growth in some regions, and also favored the nationalism that already had in those areas. The Basque Basque and Catalonia, we understand that, that's why the political political with the economic and the industrial, also is there and is present. It is to say, it is to have a transformation, a materialization in those spaces. But this, also, is something that only happens in Spain. There are countries that are more industrialized and that have a greater level of the territorial by the same dynamic industrial that they have had, but we could look at some others in which there is more inequality. At the end of the case of the north of Spain is very significant, because there where there were altos hornos, there were other industries complementarias, like for example the navier, or then a network of auxiliary industries that would be able to increase the growth of other industries. It is to say, to start developing those areas that ended up permeating in all the regions of the region. That later, we will comment on other cases. One also very significant of the internal breaches is the Italian case. Here, I don't know if you have seen it, but always says that all the map of Italy you can divide with a middle line and you have the north and the north and the north and the north and the north and the north and the north and the north and the north and the south and the south, well, in the case of the industrial Italian, it was also, it was to say, Spain has that case of the nodes, for example, in Italy, were the areas that were the most most close to the central Europe, here we see that, Milan, Turin, that's a lot of that, but the País Vasco, you had connection with the United States, Catalonia, or the area of Cádiz, all the Estrecho Giraltar, so the interior, it was more empty, and then we have another, well, Germany, I think, I think, in this area, the zone of that is a German division. But well, now we can comment about it because it is important for the process of industrialization that we will have to have to carry on in these next years. Yes, I think the interesting thing of this is that we can understand the policies that we carry on today in 2026 or that we carry on today in 2026 without understanding basically the context of the history that leads us to that, that makes possible that because we are here and we are here or we have a backpack of an historical bag that at the end, no, no, No es una ley de hierro, pero nunca mejor dicho, pero nos condiciona. Básicamente, o nos limita o nos hace incentivos en un lado y nos quita en otro. O nos ayudará a entender cosas que veamos. En el caso italiano, probablemente intenten impulsar industrias en el sur para solucionar los desequilibrios que llevan teniendo durante más de 150 años. Claro. Bueno, ya llegaremos a eso, un poco a los debates más actuales. Pero con lo que quiero que nos quedemos es que básicamente llega un momento in which Spain comes, is late, like a Spanish, but it comes. And in the 20th century, what happens? I'm going to say it. I'm going to discreate. There's a cliche that the Spanish always goes with retraso, we go to two places, and, of course, this is not the topic of today, but I'm going to discreate. But, well, in the 20th century we can say that we're not so much as a second, not a great power, but we're starting to have a certain industry or at least we manage. But, of course, at the same time we have the problem of that in the 20th century things happen, it is quite convulsed both for Spain as for Europe. And that convulsed also has an impact for Spain, in definitiva, for its industry. This period is a lot of time, so we're going to try to resume it, we're going to condense the 20th century. We can't do a chapter of two hours. No, we can't do it. Capacity of synthesis. We're going to take it here. So we're going to resume it in three historical periods or clave. The first is the consolidation and the end of the industry at the beginning of the century, especially in the context of the First World War. It is a period that is characterized by the establishment of industrial policies that seek not only promote and expand that national industry and improve the infrastructure in general, but also protect the existing industries with protection. It is a moment in which we know the value of these industries and now we try to protect them. It is also a replica in the global context Europe. And Spain, as a neutral country, is beneficial to this European devastation of the First World War. And we see it in specific sectors. For example, the siderurgia vasca, the mineria asturian, the armamentistic of the two regions, with the famous factory of arms of Truvia, the of Ibar, the chemical industry, or the catalan, which is a huge increase in precedence. All in a conflict in which the rest of the the European panorama productive was very very difficult. So you can position yourself... Those years of inter-guerra were... There. No, Spain takes money from that, of course. Claro. To take advantage of this international and... What happens? That this, evidently, dura poco, because then comes the crisis of 1929 and, of course, in the 1930s, the Spanish Civil War, that destroys, precisely, a good part of that industrial industrial. So the second hit, the second historical moment, which we have to look at, is the franquism and its different phases. We have from the autarky first, where we will try to rebuild and sustain a sector that, as the rest of the Spanish economy, was at minimum. And here we have very interesting examples, such as the minas of Wolframio, a key mineral for Germany. And here we will reference, which we explained in our episode in which we analyzed the franquism. That, in the end, while we were very depressed, there were regions in the region of gallegas and leonesas that lived relatively well, thanks to these exportations of World Premium. And then, for example, in 1941, the famous National Industry Institute, the INI, which in 1995 was absorbed by what today is the Society of Industrial Participations, the SEPI, and the goal of this INI was to promote the industry under the French perspective of the capitalization of the Estado. A imitation of the Italian fascism, also. That is. And also, under this INI-Franquist, will grow and will grow and will be very well known, like the SEAT, in DESA, in Agas, in Ceo, Iberia, which are the ones that keep having relevance. In those 50's, 60's, I mean, I've made a lot of grace. I mean, I'm going to refer to the episode of Mad Men, that we're here, campaigns, disruptors, campaign of Coca-Cola, and we're here, no, I'm a company, Enpetrol. Claro. Empresa Nacional, and so what. This is like the PDVSA, and so what. But you had an era in which you were able to get the names. In the USA, it's like, Empresa Nacional, de Chapas, de Villablino. Well, but look, the cartels of Iberia of their age are very cool. Yes, yes, yes. Here, in that part of marketing, we also have a little bit of a car. Then, in naming, we already have a rhythm. Don Draper, we are not our power. You call it the world's world. The naming is not our power. Now we mention it in a lot of things. But, well, Don Draper is not a little bit of a world's world. We have a little bit of a autocrity. So, then, it's true that with the progress of the urban tourism and the economic development, Spain will recover that industrial potential, without being a primord, all that is to say. And the rest of European European countries, especially after the post-war, and with the impulse of the recovery of the plan Marshall and the creation of the European Union, was much more destacable that EU, or that European industrial European, frente to Spain, that, of course, in our own political context, we were much more atrasados. So, Spain, by being out of all that European European Union, no benefit from that European Union. And with all, we have to say that we have to say that we have to do 1975 with a Spanish industry that represents the 30% of the interior. Here we have to do the third phase. I think it's the most important. For example, you said Alba, the 30% of the PIB. And Pedro said that he wants to reach the 20%, or that we are below. No, no, but we have to be at the 30%. Again, it's what we talked about before, the quantity that represents, the industrial cost in relation to the quantity and the quality. You have a 30%, but the quality of the industry in relation to others, well... Yes, less quality than a lot of castaños. And this third phase, for me, is the most important, because it's the one that is dying now, the logic that the impulse, and in fact, to many of you here, it's been mentioned, the minister mentioned it, the president... also that phase of the industrial conversion. We have heard that we have heard in these days, that we don't understand Bilbao, a traditional city, we don't understand the cosmopolitanism of Bilbao, precisely without that period It a key moment without the idea of how we are now and what we have to plan in the next years So here I going to stop a little because as you know todo ese periodo No es un momento clave sin el que tampoco entender c estamos ahora y qu nos tenemos que plantear en los pr a As que aqu voy a pararme un poquito porque como sabemos los a 70 son un periodo de crisis global Es decir, la crisis del petróleo, la mítica del 73, puso en apuro a todas las economías internacionales y hubo que intentar sanearlas. ¿Qué pasa? Que aquí triunfaron las tesis neoliberales, esas tesis de apertura de los mercados. There are examples like Margaret Thatcher, no vaya a ser, that in the United States has been the land of mines, all the industries, deep and deep and deep and deep. And this, also, coincide with the 80's, 90's, in which there are two processes in parallel. One, the birth of new technologies, especially in the United States, North Europa. Yes, the computer, the informatics, then a certain amount of money, then internet. Microchips, technologies. And, by the way, se va profundizando en una mentalidad de globalización liberal, de un libre mercado, abajo aranceles, deslocalización, interlocución completa... La globalización neoliberal, básicamente. Básicamente la que hemos estudiado todos. ¿Qué ocurre? Y por eso decía yo que es muy importante y creo que está bien que lo planteemos ya con una reflexión más politológica o filosófica. Estamos en un momento, ahora, en el que esas tesis neoliberales de el Estado no interviene, se han ido and they are dying, they are dying. And the same with the globalization model, they are dying, because even Donald Trump, which in our heads was a ultra-liberal, is intervening a lot in the political policy. Donald Trump is practically a neo-keynesianist, which is with a very intervening of the Estado, the same as China, which has a very intervening of a lot of intervening. So, those ideas neoliberals and globalization liberal that pushed the process of relocalization of industries, and deslocalization, and more, have died or are practically dying in these last few decades. Yes, when people say that the globalization has died, it's not that that the globalization is not that but that the globalization is not that the globalization is not that and is giving a new globalization, maybe of a greater capitalization, or no I know how we call it in the future, but... Yes, more protectionist, more interventionist, maybe, more regionalized... That's why that's the third moment that we have planned, it's important for that, because it's the one that we are now seeing morir, that is the great debate that you are having here during all these sessions. Yes, that Fasier and Reagan already died in the physical, now they are already in the intellectual and in the economic, not their ideas. And this, of course, we talked about the reconversions industrial, of a more neoliberal of the years 70, 80, 90. How does this affect Spain? Because, además, politically coincide with the transition between European countries, the OTAN, which is a time that happens many things and there is to make much change. Yes, I think it is one of the of the most fascinating times in our country. And the reality is that Spain is inserted in this international panorama that described Eduardo before, with the handicap of that it is a second European in terms of industry, that has to adapt its economy to the requirements of the European market and that goes by to save the accounts and apostate for improving the competitiveness and productivity. It is the leap of all that conception of franquism to a democratic transition and an open world, and a world that And that is also in a context of globalization, neoliberal, etc. Yes, that has to be rentable. We have seen the moment of change. Of course. Of course. Here we develop different industries that want to convert the sectors menos productive nationalists and apostate for a more modern economy. The problem is that while we were destroyed all the industry industry of companies that are not productive in that moment, we didn't have to replace other industries or of more added value. And the result was a decrease in the industry industry that has been represented a much lower percentage because we had earlier, as we said, of that 30% to a 15-20%, that we have to say that we have to achieve that 20% in some years, depending on whether we count the construction or not. This is a topic. There is a little bit of trampas to be solitarized, but it's a construction that is a industry, but... Yes, a lot of times it takes a lot of weight for that. Exactly. Like a PIB of Ireland. And we have to transition to a third-party economy, to a third-party economy. Yes, of services. To make us an idea, between 1974 and 1984, in that decade, the number of industrial workers reached the 800.000 people, that is, a 16% of the tax of industrial workers. That is a tax that here, for example, in Euskadi, was the middle of Spain. Well, in Euskadi I think there was a tax of 20-25% during the 80s. Claro, this is a 84. The impact is very evident when it is done. This is what I have mentioned. Before they have mentioned the best industrial policy in the case, it is a little bit of that. this in which we gave that rechazo. It's a mantra neoliberal to the top. And that in this world no aguant. No, no. That's it. Well, this, as we know, it affected especially to regions more dependents of the industry. We have mentioned Cádiz, Astoria and Galicia, where, as well as it was, especially in sectors like the navier or the miner, in the Levante, with the textile sector, or, as we said, in the Paris Vasco, with the siderúrgica and other than others. Although, I have to say, well, this last has been a community autónoma that has recovered quite well from the coup. But in the end, we have to talk about that led to a crisis social in these regions that were very poor, very deprimed and almost forced to change the mentality and culture, because it is something that we don't think about when we talk about economy and how it affects local and who works there, we also talk about mentalities, empresariales, labor and that also has an identity identity. What's the matter with industrial? A me like it a lot. We're talking all the day about international, but the industrial has a local path super important. So when you change, it has a minimum change. It has a very rapid effect in your population. The industry, I mean, the majority of industries in this country export to some place. That's what it has to do with the world. Or the other, the primates of some place in some place. I mean, it's very rare the company that is strictly national. No, no, no, totally. But that's what I mentioned, Alba, of all this process of industries, it also helps to understand that everything that we develop in the future we have to do it in a very good way because any change will then affect the population. And at the end, what we saw with all this process is that it compensated with the arrival of European funds. It is to say, the EU, the EU, the EU, the EU, has been very well because there was an injection of funds to be able to convert to those areas. It is true that Spain has been extendió a una terciarización de nuestra economía. Ahí está el caso del turismo, por ejemplo, evidente. Exactamente. Ese objetivo de los 100 millones y demás. Es donde destacamos. También nos hace un poco, puede ser una fortaleza, pero también nos expone mucho a cualquier vaivén que haya en ese sector. Veas el COVID. Bueno, veo COVID o ahora no, pero cuando de repente crezcan otras potencias de la cuenca mediterránea vuelvan a resurgir, pues la tienes liada, ¿no? Pero también es verdad que creció otra industria, by excess or defect, which has been many years giving us a head of the head, which is the immobility, related to the construction. Because when we prepared the cap, we talked about that there are also very strong companies in the foreign country, but it's true that in the country the immobility in the 90's and 2000 had a lot of weight, which also had a lot of a lot of comunicators. The growth of the immobility alimented a lot of the tourism, with the economic crisis of 2008, it made it that they had two two feet and had a very big impact. Well, it's that, the people can deduce that, at the end, building a building or a house, the ladrillo is a industrial thing, but then the door, the window, the retreat, the bed, the lavatory, all those are industrial things. Exactly. And the wood, the wood, the arena and other things, the construction still has a big impact, important, but it's the 5% more or less of the PIB industrial. So, that also had its impact in the 2008. So, now we are at like a 15-16% of the PIB of the industry in the PIB national, which is not bad, but we have to try to increase it in international, because it's a sector much more resilient. And see what industries potencian that growth. Yes, this is interesting because we have reached the present, I think it's interesting that we have a little bit of a radiograph of how are now the same things in Spain. What can we say or how can we say that the map is the Spanish industrial Spanish now? Well, we have here. Those who see it later on YouTube or Spotify will see the map projected. If we look at that map, the industrial industry is more repented than in the time of the... It's a map of the percent of industrial industrial for autonomy. In Spain, yes. It's a map of colors per percent. As we said before, it's true that there are many industries, but the traditional regions have lost something in front of others. We're reparting a little bit better the industrial pressure. For example, Navarra, La Rioja, Castilla-La Mancha are three communities with a higher price of the industry in Navarra. It's a 30% in 2023, that's a pretty important point. It's a very interesting point. Luego están regiones clásicas como el País Vasco, siguen muy industrializadas, rozando ese 30%, pero otras como Cataluña o Asturias, ahí tierra de Alba, han perdido un poco de ese peso industrial. Y otras, por ejemplo, han ganado, como Murcia, que ahora tiene un 26% de industria en su PIB. What happens? That, by the way, we can think that we have a very strong industrial industry, and we have overcome all these great inequalities. One is true that it is so, because it implies that our economy, the economy of certain regions, has diversified, beyond the sector of services, or agriculture, which is more precarious, with less income. Menos competitive, in general. That is, well, it makes us a little more resilient. others, in turn, have passed a depending a lot of the industry but it's true that, on the other hand, we have to not only to pay the industry but, again, to the type of industries that we have. It's to say, the rich that they generate how they organize, how they are internationalized, what presences they have, for example. Luego we will see, but many of these industries are pymes. No we have large national companies maybe prepared to compete in a global context like the one that comes to us. A lo mejor, Chapaz Manolo es una empresa industrial. Y Chapo por ellos. Pero a lo mejor son cinco y, claro, no tienen la competitividad que te puede tener un, yo qué sé, ThyssenKrupp. Ese es el asunto, ¿no? Y lo que descubrimos es que mientras la industria pesada ha ido perdiendo peso, la industria del automóvil, la agroalimentaria, las renovables, son actualmente los principales vectores, ¿no? Por ejemplo, esas tres industrias son claves en las tres regiones con mayor peso de la industria que hemos comentado antes. pensar en la agroalimentaria en torno al sector del vino en La Rioja pues eso es una industria aunque no la tengamos tan presente pero es una industria que mueve muchísima pasta y da trabajo a muchísima gente Sí, preparando el episodio me metí en Google Maps aquí quienes escuchen saben que soy yo muy fan de Google Maps a ver cómo era de grande porque Navarra es la comunidad con mayor porcentaje de PIB industrial y es en buena medida no solo en buena medida porque tienen la fábrica de Volkswagen que es casi tan grande como Pamplona la tienen a la de Pamplona y es como un troncho enorme y luego también We can't think, for example, to many people can surprise you, that Castilla-La Mancha is the third community. Yes, in the map it's been moved. It's a good idea that we have to be able to project it. With a lot of people and so on. There is a lot of industry in Castilla-La Mancha, but one of the most important is the industry of the ganadery, the industry of the porcinos, that we don't think... Yes, of course. There is also, for example, in La Rioja, a lot of agriculture, which also includes women's work, which also is important. So, it seems to be but maybe we can't think in the industrial as an enormous factory. Yes, A lot of wood. It's very visible, but not in small factories, but in small factories, and where there is a lot of industrial materials. You told me when you went to Castellón. To the ceramic, of course. What great is the ceramic industry in that area. I don't know what I knew, and maybe there are some people who are telling me, but it's gigantic space that they occupy. And that, above all, it may not seem to be much in the PIB national, but in the entire region of the region is what it is. It is to say that as a factory in that area, you have to charge the economy from a region of many villages. So, to maintain those sectors or those activities is important because, at the end, you're going to be a country. Also, for the question that I understand, that that industry, for example, the agro, which is key for the economy, I would not say that it is a little estratégical, because they are also things of eating. That is why the European Union has the impact. Draghi, I think Draghi and ETA also met them in their own if I'm not mistaken, in terms of the strategic autonomy. I think that's important. But the apuesta for the European industrialization also looks, it's a little where we go, the industries of added value. It's a little as the next step. This we have told in other episodes. We have one recent about the competitive industrial in Europe, which is the 234, which is the 250 and something, but also for a little bit, for people who is following here, or people who want to do refresh in casa, what scenario we are now facing industrialmente in Europe? Well, the key is that the new global scenario is that Europe suffers a problem of industrial competitiveness in a context of a new power industry and also of competition between China and Estados Unidos. We had used to import materiel primates and energy while we were in the center of advanced industries and of knowledge and knowledge. And a primary problem is that the rest of potencias se ha puesto las pilas. Y, pues, como lo decíamos antes, ¿no? China ya no es el productor de materias primas y facturas baratas. Ahora, además de todo esto, apuesta por tecnologías avanzadas y bienes finales de alto valor añadido que están poniendo en apuros a los gigantes industriales europeos. Y esto se ve muy bien con la crisis en Alemania, que es un país muy ligado a la industria automovilística y en el momento en el que no tienes, por un lado, acceso a energía barata proveniente del gas ruso. and China compete with new cars electric vehicles much cheaper than those that you offer, that your know-how is from the issue of the combustion engines, your industry industry, which was central to the automotive industry, is that you have a lack of talent. We have a great capacity to generate profiles with ideas innovators, altamente cualificados, pero las barreras burocráticas impiden materializar esas ideas. Y se ha dado el caso de que esas ideas acaban en Estados Unidos, en los grandes centros tecnológicos, en vez de en polos de innovación europeo. Esto me refiero a capacidad de innovar a nivel industrial, de crear empresas punteras. De hecho, una de las patas que están intentando impulsar ahora a nivel Bruselas es reducir toda la burocracia. Algo que antes habría sido muy difícil that they get to a agreement, now they're saying, let's reduce everything that is as possible as possible to facilitate the companies, which is something that we say a lot of times when we talk about them, that they can compete much faster, because others don't have so many trabas. And related to this, we have a problem of investment. Because as we talked about in that episode, according to Draghi, there would be a need 800.000 million euros to the year additional to achieve the objectives of re-industrialization and improve the productivity. We have no objectives marked, but we have no money to reach them. And on the other hand, there is a problem of cohesion and integration. We have no big European companies, we are a continent, not only Spain, but we have a continent of medium and small companies. And on the other hand, there are great differences between the states. It is the same in Germany, which in Europe, where it has a very important weight, but it is not necessarily the most actualized or punter, or in the south, which we have a industrial pressure much less marked. So, that's the differences in territorial areas, the famous phrase of Europe at different speeds, if we want a project of industrialization, it's something that is a big deal. And, above all, that, in the end, Europe is a very difficult Atlantic to move. It's true that when, at the level of industrial, we start to move, we see a profound change. And then, you need a political cohesion important to the European Union. No, of course. You don't do a industrial change. I think that, for example, the competitiveness with the United States and China, if all the transformation in the industry of defense, in the industry of automobile, can lead to internal tensions again in the franco-alemane, which is an issue that historically has had tensions. It is to say, if there are fights at the level of defense in the French and the German, because, hey, they compete, then all that we have to take into account when we define a industrial strategy at the European level. We have to try to maintain a balance for the air. Yes, but it's true that you have started to make a little bit of the idea of the European Europe of the Velocity, that's where you want to advance, and who doesn't want to advance, well, that's where you stay there a little bit of your way, and when you want to enter, that's where you want to enter. That's why you put the pilas soon. Of course, maybe create a small group of European European countries that if you want to advance and integrate more in certain areas, and I don't know, if the Hungary of Orbán doesn't want, well, you can't wait there and in some moment... And you can't wait. and how the intermediates can increase or increase in the new industrialization of the region. But even those intermediates or those that can be in agreement also have inequalities between them. So you can't be aligned to a political level or have some big differences, but even in the most close there are also difficulties of these problems of cohesion or difficulties, even if there is a political level. And Spain, how do you engage in this situation? Basically, what we have to do is like the idea of the eternal potency media, which can be one of the five of the big five europeans, we have to find what encaje we have in all this reorganization of the European industry, both in Europe as in international terms, because we have mentioned that Spain has the advantage of being a bridge with America Latina, but we have to float it really because others in Europe also are seeing that America Latina is a market. Here, as we are social, but we have a lot of engineers, we like to do the DAFOL, the CAMES, the fortalezas of abilities, so if we are like, for example, the fortalezas that we have, it is true that we have a much more diverse mix of Europe. If the Germans were the rest of the Europeans, then suddenly when Russia decides to be even more imperialist and invade Ukraine, and you cut the gas ruso, you have a problem. There we are. And it's true that we also have a increase in the prices. But our industries could resist it better than the German. That sometimes we have seen, we have the chapter of Germany that we did in the moment. But they had a increase in the energy prices. It's amazing. So, thank God, being an energy island has helped us to be prepared for a context more inestable to the energy. Then, we also have a great production of renewable energy. The renewable energy, as we have mentioned in many chapters, energy and technology are in hand, today. And the geopolitical struggle is in the center. But today, much more. You need a semiconductor, a TSMC, or a machine lithographic, to be able to be able to do it. At the end of 2021, Spain produced half of its electricity with renewables, and it's a sector that has increased significantly, especially the eólicas. So, that's a productive capacity is very positive, in the sense that we have a power of renewable energy, and one of those paths of industrialization is going precisely by there. And then, the position geográfica of our country, as a result, is very interesting for all this new change. We are in the process of regionalization, and we are, precisely, we are making a border with one of the regions that will be key in the industrialization. The North of Africa will attract many industries and Spain is at the door of them. I think it's a bit of a... I'll be able to say, because I think it's going to be like, ojo Edu, that you're going to be talking about. We'll talk about the Minister here. Okay, yes, Ivan, I'll be able to tell you. And then, in terms of, for example, we have mentioned fortalezas, opportunities that we have. The energy solar, is to say, not we have taken all the energy energy solar that we have. There are very curious of this. You see the potential and then the capacity, and Spain has a lot of potential, but maybe I'm going to take a little bit of memory, I don't know what is it, but I saw that Germany produced more solar than Spain. Yes, it was a few years ago. Even the United States, if I remember. I don't know if that is reversed. That is, that is, that is, that is, but maybe you know where they put the panel, you know, that is the key. But, well, I'm going to take a memory, but I remember that that is, so there is a lot of that there is, that is, that is, that is, that is, to improve, to expand. Then, as opportunities, we have the training. We have been apostated, and we have always insisted on the world in the professional training. We are apostated a lot for that. You need a job for the industry. It's true that you have the university, but you can complement it with a professional training. You can finance those plans for a person. You can also have the idea of the state capitalism. In the past, we have understood that the state had to leave. and not to put hands on the other. The idea is that the better budget industry is the one that exists. That is, it is, China has been done with it, the United States has been aching much more, Elon Musk is not being who he is if it was for the Pentagon. It is, the State has to have a presence, that we don talk about intervening and managing everything but yes to have a presence and that is at the European level but also at the European level Brussels and the Commission have to have a presence in the strategy y gestionarlo todo pero s tener una presencia y eso es a nivel espa pero tambi a nivel europeo Es decir Bruselas y la Comisi tienen que tener una presencia en la estrategia industrial Aunque me emociono con estas cosas. A mí me gusta mucho la industria. Bueno, yo ahora voy a bajarte porque yo traigo con el lado cenizo y pesimista que son las debilidades y amenazas. Bueno, vale. Que también las hay, claro. Que también las hay y hay que señalarlas. Una de las debilidades, de las primeras debilidades, es que tenemos una industria mucho más débil en comparación con la del resto de Europa. and this translates into a lower capacity to compete and in a lower mentality of investment and industrial education. We also have a more identity or mentality. In this sense, we are also, as we said before, a country of small and medium companies. In the end, we have to say that a panorama atomized can be a strong strength in terms of competition and diversity, but if we want to invest or contribute to great European champions that can compete in that international panorama, there are some difficulties that are going to happen. Our geography geography can be a benefit, but also a inconvenience. Because we are not a country that is so connected with the rest of Europe and that is difficult to integrate us well in a potential European industrial industrial transnational, as it can happen in places fronterizos between Germany, France, even with Suiza. That's what we call the electric electric system, for example. Claro, Bélgica, Alemania, Francia, puede tener el Valle del Rur, nosotros estamos a Portugal. No, pero Alemania siempre ha deslocalizado industria a la República Checa, por ejemplo, o a Polonia. Sí, sí, Hungría. Claro, entonces eso a nosotros nos falla un poco más. También tenemos una red de transportes que no juega a favor de la conectividad. El famoso modelo radial de Madrid, que además es una apuesta desigual por la alta velocidad, y esto condena a regiones, no solo a que estén peor conectadas a nivel de transporte de pasajeros, but also to go more quickly or to lose opportunities in issues of industrial development. And here we also have to look at the threats, and they are very related to the debilities. The first threat is France, our neighbors. I'm sorry, we're not sure if there are franceses here in the room or in the room, but in some cases... Yes, with a little bit of a ball in the rupture... There are some of them in mind. Of course, with the issue of the energy issue. We take advantage of our ability to use our geographic position to block the energy barat that we produce because they want to protect our energy nuclear market. And this becomes, as we say, a island that is difficult to sort out, even though one of our bases are the renewable energy. We also have to emphasize the strength of other power, especially the power of our vecindaries. We are surrounded by countries that are also making a clear point of view for the industry, both in the sectors specific, as in the infrastructure, and that are much more cheap and competitive than in Spain. For example, Morocco is with the port of Tangier, which is becoming a key of a fundamental transport. Well, a few days there was a news that Tangier Med has supered Algeciras, Valencia, Barcelona, Barcelona, a level of transit. And then, also, this is also a response for other industries, for example, the issue of solar energy. We can mention a Turquia with the production of acero, That is competition not only of Spain, but in general of all Europe. Or the turcs, how they have turned, at the end of the media, so that the pressure to China can be put on a trip to Turkey, the Russian to Russia can be put on a trip to Turkey. It's a saying, they have put a very strong engine in their industry, the Turkish industry. Yes. This also, and here we have seen in countries more of our vecindaries, with whom, as well, we have quite estrech relations. But we have signed a commercial agreement with India, which is beneficial for certain sectors, but also is a threat to others. We talked about the case of ceramic, that Eduardo talked about yesterday with companies in the sector of ceramic, and how this can be a very clear competition for sectors that also sustain regions. After the cocktail, I came to the night, at 12am, I put it on the ceramic, because it was called the attention and I met it on the internet. Why could you sleep with reading about ceramic? Well, each one has their own things But I don't know I don't know Because we had talked about the agreement of India I don't know That it would have been a impact And it's true That all the area of Castellón Is very worried What will happen with the ceramic India Because there is a region of India That is punter In the exportation of ceramic to Europe And now it's a threat So there is a challenge For a power like Spain That is We have signed this agreement A level european Very good but what happens with my own? Of course. You have to have to have all the needs of all the states and also the international agreements that you have. And also think that at the level of attraction to investment, all these countries, our neighboring, so productive, so attractive, can also be competent. Well, I have here a little bit of investment that I attract much more than what I can offer. And that's not bad, that you also help prepare yourself. It's like, are threats or competencies, no happens to happen. We have to learn to prepare ourselves for that. Yes, these are interesting questions that we are going to be able to do with the Minister of Industry and Tourism. We have left the environment a little... No, but now that he can bring his vision to these topics that has Spain's address. So we are going to invite you to join us and join us. Thank you, Mr. Minister. A round of applause. This is No is the Fin del Mundo. First podcast in which he is? Well, yes. Well, for you, there is a first time. I was going to say, of industry and of the others. It's not for a cafe. It's a first experience. Well, we're all enjoying so much that I'm excited. Well, that's a pleasure to have you here. I think it's interesting that you share some of the impressions that we've been talking about. We give a little context, we try to give the clues, but then I think also, In the end, who have the capacity to do things, what is impulsing politics, are the politicians, the government. So, in that sense, maybe a little bit, the first question is, how do you think about Spain, the Spanish industry in this case, in relation to the European industry, which can be, I don't know if, sometimes a competitor, and in general, the international context. How do you see now the Spanish industry? Well, I think I think we have two days debatiendo the challenges and all the challenges that we have and also at the same time I think we have the great active to face the challenges I'm excited to be in a podcast talking from the geopolitics of the industry I think I say it seriously because yesterday, for me, one of the One of the most important things that we have is how we generate industrial culture, especially for bringing, for pedagogia, what is now the industry, which is very different from when I was young as you were. I think it's something incredible. And so it's very important to do the new industrial culture with new claves, to break the topics that are still very set up in the collective imagination. And in this sense, I want to thank you very much the power, you know, that you are dedicated to the geopolitical reflection, to introduce this element of industrial reflection, which I think is something incredible. I think, and I want to start from a thesis, we are, especially in a great industry opportunity, from Spain and I would say from the entire Iberica. And so I would like to put more emphasis on all the opportunities that we have and especially because I think that these two days of Congress, what we have expressed is that we have problems, we have limitations, we have big challenges, but we have the capacity and the willingness that is collective, well, of the union of We have policies publics, along with the energy that comes from the industrialists, workers, companies, entrepreneurs. I want to start. We are in a great opportunity. But it is evident that the opportunity is won if we are very active, minimizing threats, trying to make all the weak points we can give back the turn, and, digamos, aprovechando al máximo las oportunidades y los puntos fuertes. Y, por tanto, yo diría que tenemos una buena oportunidad. Yo, mira, ser ahora ministro de Industria en la España del 2026, sin duda, es muy diferente al entorno de hace 10 y 20 años. En el ministerio tenemos todo el pasillo de todos los exministros de Industria. Bueno, Su entorno era totalmente diferente a lo que ahora vivimos. Y yo creo que habéis descrito absolutamente el cambio de paradigma en el que nos encontramos. Yo siempre lo explico en términos personales, vitales, disculpate. Yo empecé a trabajar hace 35 años en el puerto de Barcelona. and working in a port like the of Barcelona for 35 years ago was to assist to the creation of the paradigm or the creation of the paradigm that these years have ended which is the paradigm that has passed it was the globalization of a world that we said that it was a plane where the emergence of the fight for the competitiveness the globalization, without weaknesses, because we were from a geopolitical world, a confiable world. And had fallen the wall, some theorized that the history ended, well, that clarivid, let's say, no? A plane plane, where in the aras of competitiveness was the explosion of the product specialization in the world. And we gave in that paradigm, for well, for that, the deslocalization productiva. And, for that, the processes, I, years later, I lived in urban vision, in an area like the of Barcelona. The desindustrialization, the deslocalization, even of an industry, that its image was not the chimney with a green tree, but that was that activity that was more compatible with the urban environment, for example something that now is changing a lot and therefore that paradigm of globalization where the geopolitics didn't emerge was like a game where in the competitiveness it was specialised now this has changed radically and you who are experts in geopolitics it's evident that one of the consequences is the discovery of Europe of something that we have with a very liberal rhetoric and that we have been practicing the other great regions in the world. I have been three years president of the past and we launched a satellite with SpaceX and, effectively, when you are there, they explain this, that, under a retórica of something that seems the adventure of a entrepreneur at the side of there there are great programs with the Pentagon that also explain the inclusion of a project like SpaceX so, in the United States China, in Korea so, this element of the entrepreneur that also generates a dynamic of public and private collaboration is what gives now now, a political political political political, which means that, in addition to the last decades, as a paradigm, that was always to be with the political political political factors, which were the competitiveness, now, it adds to this political political political political, of treatment of each of the sectors. So it is not of interventionism, but of being a partner with the industrial agents to create a new industry policy that has a new goal, which is to recover the product capacity of manufacturing in a reliable zone. Cada uno que defina zona confiable, para unos, sin duda no es la comarca, no es la provincia, no es la comunidad autónoma. Yo creo que no es España solo. Sí que afirmo que cada vez tiene que ser más una Europa que en todo caso tiene que ser más que nunca capaz de, para defender el proyecto europeo, a la vez de establecer alianzas confiables con el mundo. And therefore, diversify zones in which we can increase the value chains in Europe. And this, I always say, our business, between quotes, is very territorial. What we before gave us for good, that the productivity capacity goes to other areas, because we already design, we already innovate and others will make it. this now is radically the new paradigm because we have learned first that who makes is innovating is designing and is dominating the chain of value so it is the return of putting in first the very important to have a chain of value product and manufacturing in Spain and Europe and under this principle is where we develop political industry. It's the new paradigm. Justly, it's not a neoprotectionism. It's a thing that I think is the best defense, in terms of football, is a good attack. It's dominating the ball. It's not going behind the ball. It's playing with the base of what you can build. And we are in the middle of this process. But I want to define a little bit, as you have done, the new geopolitics leads to the industrial reforzation of Europe. What a paradox. If, just as we were told yesterday, we were born carbon and acero in common. So, strengthening the product base. And then, I'll never get more to get into it, but all this we have to put it, because now we are to defend our values. And so Europe encarne values that have adversaries. And we have to defend the values of Europe from the productivity of the productivity. Because if not, it would be a rhetoric of the values without the material to defend these values. And so for me, the industrial policy now is not a sectoral policy, it is a very central policy. I have a little bit of a melon that I think is interesting and I think I'd like to indagar in that, I'm going to call it as a sphere of influence economic, but that Spain has a place of a close proximity to produce, fabric, and alimentation in terms of supply chain. here are the concepts that I will explain briefly, which is the French Shoring, which is like localizing in countries amigos geopolitically speaking, which is not a lot of China, it is India, or Turkey, or Brazil, a country that we can understand that is a fin geopolitically, or the Near Shoring, which is localizing in a country that is close to a close, and that is to avoid the bottles of bottles, that you can keep a lot of competitiveness, of low salaries and and other countries, but that are geographically close to avoid large logistics that have been seen in the last years that is problematic. Spain, where do you fit? Can it be Niershoring or Frinshoring of other countries? And at the same time, we can generate Frinshoring or Frinshoring? I mean, I'm not sure. Marrocos, Argelia, Estes of Europe, have any strategy in the sense? How do you fit in these two new tendencies, which I think are, at the level of industrial production, vital to what we have of the year? I think we first part. First, we defend the multilateralism. We defend that the multilateralism, the capacity to accord rules of juego, is a principle that we defend. We are going to pass from a globalization without a regionalization, which is not the negation of the globalization. I also have to say that sometimes the globalization from Europe is perceived in a way more negative than in the rest of the world. I also want to defend the globalization. It's a redefinition, but not a negative. Because it's true that the globalization has taken from the extreme poverty hundreds of millions of people in the world, which are the new geographies emergent. So in this context, we, multilateralism, No creemos en que esto sea un juego de suma cero Y creemos en las bondades del intercambio Es verdad que le ponemos ahora el matiz De la autonomía estratégica abierta Y por tanto nos parece El concepto abierto Es lo que yo creo que es importantísimo Digamos, de añadir Bueno, nosotros tenemos que establecer Acuerdos para que todas las cadenas de valor and in all the power chains, the territoriality has a very important weight. But based on the cooperation and the multilateralism. This means, I always explain it, if we had a boat, it is to choose the port to which we want to arrive, and it is the industrial reforzation of Europe and Spain. From this time, when one has it clear, is when then we have to open up to the United States, North America, Mercosur and, by the way, India, the South, Asia, China because in this dialogue, when you know where you want to go is when then any dialogue can be sincere, productive and where we seek the other to win and win we are. that is all the contrary of who doesn't know where it goes and then he is at the end of the pressure of the wind that you get from the west and the east and so first, we don't admit vetos of nobody and so we have the capacity of understanding multilateral and in every dialogue what we do is as others did already 40 years ago and so we understand very well because they did it first that was accept the investment of other countries but with conditions the well done in Spain means that for me the investments that come from China from India, from USA as always has been because the birth of the industry in Spain the that was our world is full of names of all Europe I go every week to see companies that funded them for 100 years, not an company that's done for pharmacy in Spain. So, this element, I say, is, come from where it comes while it comes to make in Spain. When it comes to make in Spain. And here I have to generate an industry. And so, I say, when it comes to make a industry, we generate all the positive effects of the industry in Spain, we are open to to dialogue and to the investment from where they come. That is the opposite of being open to any way, any investment. I have a question. You can comment on what you want. You can do the multilateralism. One thing that we are working in this process of industrialization and we are finding many times with them is with how you sign a agreement, for example. How you sign a agreement with India or the relations with a United States that is tiring by land and is acabing with norms and obligations that they had in the industry or, for example, how do you make India comply with the norms or the normative that have to comply the Spanish industry or European countries which seems to be a big deal in that, because we are in a multilateral order but in reality, what we are seeing is that a large part of the great and new power se saltan un poco a la torera las normas que nos habíamos dado durante años. Entonces, a nivel industrial Europa, ¿cómo compite contra un mundo en el que las normas cada vez tienen menos importancia y en el que la principal potencia del mundo te está con el baby drill baby drill? Pues yo creo que por un lado hay Europa hacia adentro que es todos los retos que tenemos y que dependen de on ourselves It is to say if we have many internal arancels that we put between European countries it is to say, the market of 450 million is a medium development. And therefore, those weak points that you have described, Well, we need the Europe of energy, and therefore the interconnectivity of the networks has to increase. Mal that the people's pese a person, let's say. We need to generate the Europe that makes the European European money to go to other places, profundizing the European finance market. Here we have examples of companies, because it is not for talent, it is not for the capacity of making projects, but in the growth of the economy, the drama of these last decades that we gave for good and now we can't give for good is that someone who begins to make quantum chips in Spain because talent no nos lacks from a certain element of growth empresarial has to be pushed to go to other regions this is what we can't allow so we have to in eliminating the visible or invisible barriers, which means a new step in the interior market. I think my thesis is that we have been decades always worried about internal competition and this now is the size of our companies to compete with the rest of the world. So there is an element in which we have to generate more European projects, of European scale, European scale, to continue competing. So we have another great apart, simplification. It's evident that we are of a more complex governance than others, but we have to simplify this time because time is money. and so it is another element, I say variables that depend on us. So there is an element that is looking for the European power that many times means the gymnasium of superpowers the national egoism to go to European scale, of European scale, and not to make us trampas al solitario entre nosotros. Por tanto, profundización. Esto tiene una base política, que es los que creemos más y mejor Europa contra los que dicen menos Europa por la emergencia de la Europa de los patriotas, que es un oxymorón. O sea, que es eliminar el patriotismo europeo. Lo digo porque esto es la... Si no, todos son dificultades. Por tanto, es más Europa que nunca. And the other is, from Europe to the world, for example, is to overcome the stage of the globalization or the trade-off with the rest of Europe. That is, for example, if we have to apply the CEBAM, so the mechanism to equalize, that there are systems of control, of traceability, so that you don't have triangulations through countries. So, having a European European policy responsible, serious and with control of what you enter and what you leave, to equalize the conditions, means having this dialogue in which it has to be as a condition that we leave beneficiados the two parts and therefore multilateralism the capacity of understanding with everyone to reduce vulnerability and to gain in resilience if you fail a market for hyperprotectionism go to other markets and then, well, in definitiva it's taking us more seriously than ever Europe which means its development, its defense against other regions and the profundization of what depends of Europe towards ourselves. And then I think that with this we have to go to win. I think that the base of a certain decline was that for 25 years we didn't assume the digital revolution with the force of other powers. We did not have to go. And we did not have to go. What I have now here everything depends on others. Well, this has to change. This has to change. So, we started to lose productivity by not taking time the trend of the new digital revolution. And this is a signatory pendient of Europe. And, evidently, we have, and we have to support what already said, we have to go to a new European governance where we can find the European project to, digamos, well, to be able to get more rapid decisions in the decision and, therefore, more efficacious. I think that based on this we are when, with the Maghreb, with India, with Turkey, with China, we can establish a partir of our own strength, which I think we have. Now, this is uning, with science, common work and it's our challenge that we have in Brussels. And from this I think that Spain is bringing to this debate, I would say, the battle for the values. We don't give up to the climate change, we don't give up to the capacity of regular life collective, also the digital revolution with rules, with technologies at service of what we want, not the reverse. Now, I think we're bringing up another topic, which is called efficiency. It is to say, we don't give up to the values, but we have already from the years ago a growth economic growth. With a lot more healthy than what I lived in 30 years ago. We built more than Germany and France together, but that was a combination of a mix not as healthy as the current. where there is a engine called investment, which we have to give more gas, which is called consumption national and which is called capacity for export. It's true that now some markets are complicated, but we have to have competitiveness to win markets. It's true that our economic impulse also makes us more import. But therefore, the combination is more saludable. I think that the great battle is called productivity. For that we are interested in more industry because it is important to produce productivity. If we had time, we would have talked about another day. No, here we could have been three hours. That's the tourism also. That's a good idea. No, I also want to break, we try to break topics. Yes, yes, the tourism is a great ally. It has a great impact in the production chain. If not, they call it the agricultural impact that has the tourism. It's true that the big factor at the macro is that we export more services no tourist. Spain has more exportation of no tourist services than the sector turistic of export, of incorporation of prosperity through tourism. With a industrial sector, it's true that when other components increase, it's cost to gain a percentage. I want to express that we are at the maximum of the series of 30 years in absolute value. The industry has less staccionality than the tourism. It is much more safe to a state for a strong state to have a strong industry. Because at the local level people have their income every day. And it depends on that October they leave tourists or come to a temporary. I am a little bit... Well, I'm a minister of industry and tourism. I like two things that I love and I love them. I just want to explain that the tourism goes in the good direction. It's going to be a good direction. It's going to be a good focus. It's going to be a good value. And this gives us more stability as a sector. It will be a long time for all the year. and therefore less temporality, more strength, more capacity to generate a model that is in plena transformation. Because tourism, Spain, which has a leader, only we will keep it if we transform the model. We have talked about this change of mentality, how we leave this idea of the industry, the industry industry is that it is not that it exists, how we look at Europe and the role we want to play in Europe from here, from Spain, but we can do the opposite and ask if we take Europe seriously if we take Europe seriously. If we take Europe seriously seriously, we take Europe seriously. We have that same response from the other side, because there is also the change of mentality at the European project of the French-Franco-Alemans, even though Germany is in crisis or even though France later or later has to open that isla energy. But we have the capacity to convince them, Because the United Reunido is there. I have the last one. Pedro Sánchez has no limited time, but we have a question. I have a question for you to answer. Well, I, sinceramente, I have two years and three months of minister. And I, every time we go to Brussels, I perceive that we have the legitimacy of defending the tesis, but that comes from results. I say it with all honesty, but at the same time, it is so. It is to say, we can defend the electrification of the automobile industry because we are able to defend our plant product, our sector of components and we are holding the type in a triple transition, digamos, tecnológica, digital, también energética. Y por tanto defendemos esta tesis, no sólo por la lucha contra el cambio climático, que en sí mismo ya tiene sentido, sino por un motivo industrial, por un motivo económico. Y entonces, yo creo que ahora nosotros somos, y el sur en general, a diferencia de hace 15 años. Es pasado de los FICS a este país confiable del sur de Europa, that has a position of enlace with Africa, America is a key entrance to Europe but that is profoundly european and that believes profoundly in the values I said earlier about humanism that for me before was a obvious but now we have to new militants while we are running WhatsApps for that but before this and also I add other things that would be no so much industry. Today there is an article in the New York Times, in the heart of the empire, of a president of government that says, no, no, well, Spain is an open country. Fruto of a society open. And it says in the New York Times, for that some people know. And we say, we do it by values. Yes, I do not transition with values. But it is also that it has practical results. Because the sustainability, the competitiveness of a country is much better with the definition of an open society. And so, the cultivating respect to diversity, the generating an open society, also as Minister of Industry also generates conditions for the attractiveness, this deriva our leadership of attracting tourists in the world, but also competitiveness industrial and that's why I think in Europe we are that is true, in these moments progressist, europeist, but I add, in terms of political, of the social democracy that works, that brings results, that generates occupation, that is fighting for more productivity, that is taking the innovation seriously, and therefore, a change of productive model in which we have not finished the process. No, it is not bad. And then, I tell you concretely, what is concerned about many German leaders? that come elections sindicals in the great German industries and that what not happened here is that in the industry no is entering with strength the populism that niega all the European values all there there is fear there is fear there is fear there is fear there is fear there is fear there is fear there is fear there is fear there is fear and all this this goes from the industrial industrial and economic to a tesis political They were very dependent on the industry and they had hit. And then I think that we, for that to me is so important to defend the industry and that we get exitously out of these transitions. Because when people see that we create new giga factories, that we defend... I'm going to many more industrial innovations that a gestion, that also we have to touch, that also we have to touch. That's fine. That's fine. I'm sure that it's incredible. Because we have to be in the green and in the madures. We have to be in the crisis. And close to the people. Now, it's evident that we are attracting projects industrials in Spain. This is the great barrier against the siren of those who wanted to return to the etapas pretéritas of neoprotectionism or of an industrialism banal of economic autarky of the European nations that I think one of the things that is a industrial error this is what leads to the decadence so I think that we how do we see well with someone that we want in definitiva we want a federal we want to profundize in the project of a European that takes place in serious that the President of the Government He said, we want to get more European resources to generate this European level with more ambition. Well, we are in debate. There are other people who say, no, no, no, no, no, no we want to get more European debt. Well, we say, I think we have been doing well this European solidaried. And we say it like the economy that grows more. But the tendency is, a nivel europeo es al contrario. Es decir, por mucho que diga... Yo no veo a Merz diciendo vamos a unirnos de la mano, a ver cómo salen las elecciones en Hungría. O sea, me explico que yo entiendo la tesis, pero también lo que vemos es que estamos planteando en un contexto en el que vemos las grandes potencias, bueno, menos China, que China te quiere abrir el mercado, pero también es muy intervencionista y muy proteccionista en su mercado interno. Entonces, como que yo entiendo el punto, pero me cuesta ver how to materialize it and how to European Europe in the medium term there can be a consensus like that because I see it complicated and you see the trend in the election France the year that comes in, they come in elections well, Europe that is a democratic system will have sovereignly from every nation will have to decide what European project I why now I always say and I speak more and more of Europe I would prefer to these dimensions preferiría la globalización más tranquila pero ahora nos jugamos en cualquier decisión que Europa querremos y entonces, en todo caso yo digo, la gente nos tiene como alguien que defiende claramente y lealmente sus tesis creo que venimos avalados también por resultados oye, tenemos mil cosas a mejorar pero también venimos avalados por resultados y por eso yo creo que nosotros expresamos that we want to profundize the European project. It's a thesis so legitimate as people who want to eliminate the European project. They're investing much to eliminate the European project. They're financing a lot of people who want to destroy the European project. Now, with all the respect, but also with all the firmness, we're going to be we. And when I say we, I don't only say the government of Spain or the political family to which I belong. Because in the European family we have a lot of people. I mean, I feel now the Christian democracy, the liberals or the green, all the great European families, that in definitiva we are the people that defend us the values of a certain humanism. And then this now, not happened to 20 years ago, but confront directly with people that they want in the multilateralism and that they end with all the policies that they tend to try to work for the freedom and equality of the people. And then, I say it because, pardon me, that we have gone from industry, but it's that now, to understand the sense of what we are doing, now we have to defend in every factory, in every project, the European project. And I say it, is, Europe has a huge capacity and only has the confidence because if we know how to sum we are powerful, not only we are that space that represents the 6-7% of the population that curiously receives the half of the tourism of the world imagine, why? because it is the society that has more human quality and development. So, we have to substitute soft powers for hard power. And the industry is hard power. In the sense, it is the one that gives you the materials, economic, to then, and then, to finance the state of the well-being. That equality no becomes a retórica vacía. I say that because we from this Congress we have to give a greater impulse to the economy. From this time, we are going to defend the productive capacity. We will not let our basic chemical system disappear. We will not let the oil sector disappear. We will not let the automotive sector disappear. We are in another phase. We are in a phase of replacement. We are not in phase of replacement. We are in phase of deployment. And we have to do it with responsibility, with the capacity of sum up. Spain alone in the world cannot. I also can't say to the ministries of France and Germany that I tell them, look, we are going to form part of the pelotons, but it's got to be inspired and to pull strong. We need a Germany that pull strong. we need a France that tire strong and we add Italy and if you add great news Spain I assure you that is very powerful very powerful in our dimension but the people know that we are to sum well there is before that Eduardo take the topic of the ceramics I have to go to Gusto and then look I don't have the opportunity to talk about it all the day because if not you lose you lose you lose you lose you lose you lose you lose you lose I thank you very much for the presence and the conversation. I'm going to turn to everyone here, which is already two. Alba Liba, thank you for the episode of today. Thank you for your time. Eduardo Saldaña, thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. And Minister Yordereu, thank you for participating in this podcast and for sharing your knowledge and impressions. For me, I consider it a luxury, I say it with all sincerity. If you can help us to create culture industrial, it's the most beautiful thing that there is, Although the people still don't know And also, thank you Thank you very much for joining us today In the National Congress of Industry Again, thank you for waiting And we'll see you very soon Here again, on The Fin of the World Thanks Fernando Arancón. Producción ejecutiva Ricardo Villa. Edición de sonido y sintonía original Pablo de Diego.