Kristen McMenamy

Hi, come in. Welcome to fashion neurosis, Kristin McMenamy.

0:08

Thank you. Nice to be here.

0:19

Can you tell me what clothes you're wearing today and why you chose them?

0:22

Well, today I have a Comme des Garcons dress on. I don't know why I chose it. I had about seven other outfits I could have chosen all lined up and I just. I don't know. This one came in the mail yesterday. I bought it secondhand. I put it on. I loved it. And then I thought, oh, it's too black. But I had a lot of colors. But I just. I don't know, I loved it. So that's pretty much it.

0:27

And what about the shoes?

1:02

The shoes are Miu Miu. They used to make the best shoes. They used to. They don't anymore.

1:05

Well, the dress is exquisite. I must say, I was slightly worrying about what to wear myself. Knowing you'd appear in something major.

1:16

No, no, no, no. I could have gone. I had something that was very major and glam. I decided on being sober.

1:24

Right.

1:35

And very just plain.

1:36

Well, we're matching in black satin. Even though it's kind of different garments.

1:39

Yes, we are. Same fabrics.

1:45

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1:50

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2:28

and

3:08

you're one of the famous 90s supermodels who you've appeared on the covers of Vogue and been photographed by the most famous photographers in the world and appeared in legendary campaigns alongside Cindy and Christy, Kate and Naomi. And you're more in demand than ever. And who was your pin up when you were a girl?

3:08

Oh,

3:31

it was Janice Dickinson.

3:33

Oh, wow.

3:37

Yeah, believe it or not, she was phenomenal. And a lot of the girls, the models of that, that era, Chadis era, were blonde. Like blonde, big boobs, just, you know. And she was the first one I saw that was like different, like she looked different and she had dark hair and, you know, big lips and she was just like wild. And she was my, she was my pin up for sure.

3:38

And did you see her, where did you see her for the first time?

4:13

In Vogue. Vogue, you know, whatever. Yeah, I guess more Vogue because I lived for Vogue.

4:17

And was Vogue in your home or did you go and look at it in a shop?

4:26

I looked at the shop. Yeah, I looked at a shop. But I did have some of her pictures at home and I just stared at them and I stared at them and I thought she must be the happiest girl in the world to be doing this job looking like that. A perfect life, a perfect. That's what I want. That's what I want. Everyone loves you. You're being admired by everybody who reads this magazine. Yeah, I wanted what she had.

4:33

Yeah, it's odd, isn't it? Because I've found that the more beautiful a woman is, the more insecure she tends to be about her beauty. And some of. I've always liked to be friends with the prettiest girl in the class. So I always had that kind of. I was always a sort of struck by that thing that you described, that she must be so happy and finding how what a double edged sword it was to be that beautiful that it seemed to be something that it didn't bring the security that I expected that it should bring.

5:13

Well, that's what I've discovered. I never thought of myself as beautiful at all. But I knew with makeup and lighting and hair, I could present my. I could look beautiful on a photograph. You know, I took off the makeup, took off whatever the dress and the. And I was back to being this awkward, ugly thing. And I carry that to this day. You know, I still feel like little Chrissy in Pennsylvania. I do. So the insecurity plus as a model, you become more and more insecure. You are surrounded by the most beautiful girls in the world. I mean, that is your competitor kind of thing. Not really. But you know, and you just, you have to stop yourself from comparing yourself to them. And plus you have then, you know, when you become successful, you know, you see them before. Like before I ever worked I lived with a house full of. Of the most. I mean, I walked in and I thought, my God, these women are Amazonian beauties. You know, they're just. They must be the biggest models. And I just felt so small and so. So what's the word that you don't know if it's inadequate or inadequate or. Yeah, something like that.

6:04

One of the inward.

7:58

Yeah. Do you know, I have a word. I always have a word tip of my tongue, and I can't get it out. And people suggest other words. I'm like, no, no, no, I have it. Yeah. So I compare myself to that. They actually weren't working at all, which is, like, mind blowing for me because it's like, how can these beautiful girls. And now that I'm successful, it's keeping it up. Keeping it up. You know, people have this idea of you, and then you have to. You can't present yourself at. Well, I can't. Because of my insecurity. I can't present myself at a job and, you know, weigh 50 more pounds and have cut my hair and, you know, and aging is a big thing because each time, you know, you're getting older, you're getting older. And I am working a lot, so not many jobs, but I'm working a lot with good people. And it's. It's a constant pressure to keep it up, you know, just to keep it up. I mean, I was thinking yesterday, I'm in this, like, hamster wheel, and I can't stop. I can't get off it. You know, I just want to run away to a forest in Norwegia. Or. Norwegia sounds good. Is that a country? Norway.

7:59

Norwegian. I like the sound of Norwegian.

9:46

A Norwegian forest in Norway. Yeah. Or somewhere that I just. There's no presenting yourself to anyone. There's no mirrors. There's no. This whole idea of being considered a beautiful woman has so many balls and chains attached to it. So, yeah, I mean, I love my job. I love it, but I. I'm still amazed I'm here.

9:50

But the.

10:33

But do I. Do I want to stay here? Yes, I guess I do.

10:34

So there seems to be something about the group of you models who were so successful in the 90s that that just hasn't changed. That the. Well, certainly from the. Your audience is still fascinating. And there's all these new young people who are completely intrigued and obsessed with this group of you incredibly gifted and talented models who have such. Everyone is so interesting, and it's your personality that also is part of your look. So that's not going anywhere. That's just increasing with every passing year. And it's so that's true.

10:39

And I mean, what I learned is early on, his personality is. For me, it was my thing that I thought if I made people feel better, if I made people laugh, they wouldn't look so much at me. The details of anything, you know, so that, yeah, that's kind of my. My smoke screen or whatever you call it. But all the girls of that time, the supermodels, were. I don't know what it was, but we all had something. Yeah, you're right. And it was just amazing timing. Amazing timing. I mean, the fact that I was working in the 90s and I'm here laying on this couch talking about it and still working is phenomenal. I mean, phenomenal. So, yeah, I mean, we were, but we didn't have distractions. No mobile phones, because everybody. Now the models you walk into like backstage, they're always looking on their phones and they're not engaging. Like we had to engage and we had to work, you know, we had to work. There was, there were no, like, there were less restrictions, less, less rules that they have now. Now it's kind of like do your job, look pretty, leave, you know, and the little girls don't have a chance to develop because they're taken so quickly and put on this stage, this golden stage of like being the girl of the moment for the whole fashion industry, you know, and it's like, wait a minute. So I don't know, I don't know what effect it has on them, but for me it has had a horrible effect. It's like, is modeling hard work? Well, I never thought of it as hard work. I look back and think that wouldn't have been allowed though, you know, like working all through the night, we were all like, you know, walking around naked and stuff. Like it was just like, you know, a photographer would say, oh, you look so sexy and it would be like a compliment. And you know, it's like make love to the camera. I don't know. But it definitely. We had a good moment too. We had a. I fell in on a good moment because I wasn't one of the original supermodels. I kind of came in there, got in there as like the dark supermodel, you know, the weird looking one, and Steven Meisel, I mean, a few photographers I can name, but Steve Meisel really created that image of me, kind of together recreated it.

11:29

Did you do a shoot with him and did you work with his team? Like G. Was it Garen?

15:10

Garen. Garen, Garen.

15:16

Oh, he was incredible. The hairdresser.

15:19

Most incredible hairdresser. And if you want a haircut, Garen is like, yeah, I had a haircut from Garen. But, yeah. So Garen, I. When I first. I think I just had come back from having a baby, and I. Yeah, I won't go into that, but I just came back and I didn't know if I was going to work again. You know, it's like, okay, is this it? I don't know. I didn't really care at that time. But Stephen, I worked with Stephen and, you know, the 90s. I have, like, so little recollection. I was so drunk all the time, but I'll try. So, yeah, I shaved the back of my head the night before.

15:22

You did?

16:21

I did. And I dyed my hair black with some, you know, some pharmacy stuff, and I cut it really short. And I walked into the studio and I had plucked some of my eyebrows out. I don't know why I did that before a job, but I did. So I got it. And Garrett said, what have you done to yourself? I was like, fuck, what have I done to myself? I fucked my career. But he took his scissors and made it look like that, you know, like a bowl haircut. It was so genius. And Francois plucked out all the rest of my eyebrows.

16:22

And Francois Nars.

17:12

Yeah, Francois Nars. And then Stephen took my picture. It was an Italian Vogue. I'm on the COVID and I'm wearing Versace.

17:15

Wow.

17:29

And that cover is like, you know, it's just one of those covers that I'm so proud of. Because it's. Proud of, I guess. Proud of. Yeah, I'm proud of it. You know, I love it. And I think even if it was a different girl, I would love it. Because at that time, it's all in the context of the time, the history, you know, the point in history. But before that, it wasn't. We created this kind of freak. I mean, I looked like a freak, which is amazing. I love that. I love the fact that I could look like a freak and still be celebrated. And that was new to the fashion industry because it was like, whoa. And then, you know, I get all this bad press and good press, but mostly good.

17:30

Yeah.

18:37

So. And that launched my career even more. I was working a lot before, but even that launched it into the supermodel

18:38

status, because I remember meeting you for the first time. I think it was 1992 at Saur Schlumberger's house in Paris. And you were hanging out with Sandra Bernhardt and you looked a bit like her pretty younger sister and, and she was sort of bossing you around. I don't, I just remember her noticing you and her.

18:50

Yeah.

19:15

And I wondered, did that happen a lot? That people impose their ideas of how they want you to be or how they want you to act?

19:16

Well, I don't remember that. Who, whose house do you remember?

19:29

She was a Brazilian heiress, I think she was quite old and her house had been done up and it looked like it had been interior designed by Salvador Dali and it was one of those fashion parties gatherings and Andre Leon Talley was there and it was the most incredible night. And I hardly ever went to anything like that. So I remember the detail, I remember what I was wearing. Cause I just thought.

19:40

Yeah, because you were sober, right?

20:13

Yeah.

20:19

I can't. I find. I'm amazed by the fact that you went through the whole 90s like that sober. I was, I was I 10. If I had the chance. I was drunk, you know, if I had the chance. And there's a lot of fuzzy things. I don't remember that specific night because it all runs into another party, into another house, into another.

20:20

Yeah, yeah.

20:49

You know, so Sandra Bernhardt. Yeah. We hung around for a while and I don't know what happened but like many people, they're in my life for a while and then they go, you know, it's just the nature of the game, I guess. But yeah, yeah, I get really close to people. I was close to her and if she was bossing me around, I was probably being bad. I don't know, I was probably being naughty

20:50

because she seemed like she was probably quite good at bossing people around anyway.

21:25

But yeah, I guess, yeah,

21:29

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21:35

I'm Mitch Purse, two time IndigoCell champion, championship MVP and forward for the US Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have what People don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset, and unseen battles on the path to greatness. So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an elite athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

22:12

I'm Maria Sharapova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Follow Pretty Tough wherever you get your podcasts.

23:01

And do you remember what the first piece of clothing you became obsessed with as a child?

23:30

Oh, oh, yes. Well, I come from a family of seven kids, Roman Catholic, with not a lot of money, and I got the hand me downs. But when I started to get obsessed with clothes, it was up to me to make the money to buy the clothes. And I just didn't have enough, you know, no matter what job I had. And I had a lot of jobs. Like I was, I worked at Roy Rogers and I had to say, howdy, partner, what can I get you today? And they smile and then, and then when they get their food, I would get it and then come again, you hear? It was like all that I had. I wore a cowboy hat and like this, this like faux kind of like cowgirl dress and made of plastic, you know. And I worked at food Lane, sorting, taking inventory of men's trousers. Food Lane, that's like they sold clothes. I would make the announcements. Hello, hello shoppers. Today we have a sale on men's relaxed jeans. And then I. Well, I first started out as a paper girl. The morning call, the morning call. I was up every morning at five in the morning or earlier because I had to do it before school and it was dark. I just remember being scared by the whole. I was going to say scared my whole life, but I was kind of scared my whole life. But okay, I'm going around the circle. So I didn't have money to buy the clothes. I would window shop, but not just window shop. I would go into these places in the mall because that's where you home now, in the mall. And I would go through all the clothes like a hundred times and just look and fantasize about having them because I wanted these clothes like These clothes would make me a good person, Like a better, you know, a better person. I don't know. I just wanted them so badly. And the one thing I really wanted was parachute pants. But they were like, kind of tight, kind of like rock and roll parachute pants. And they had that slippery surface and I just thought they were the coolest thing in the world. I never got them, but now. Now I'm making up for it. My childhood neglect. Yeah.

23:37

And how did you manage the transition from girl to woman? Was that something you tried to control?

26:51

Well, I never got to sex talk, you know, so I had to find out.

27:01

No.

27:07

But I did get the guilt about sex, so that was quickly instilled in me. I never felt like a girl. I never felt like a woman. I never felt like. I don't know why that is, because it's not like I want to be a man, but I just didn't feel good enough, I suppose. So the whole transition happened without me even, like, kind of acknowledging it. I don't know. You know, I don't know. When I got my period, I forget. I didn't want to look too sexy, you know, because I thought I'm not right for that. I just felt a bit. Was a bit of an outcast. But I just. I don't know, I never gave it that much thought, but I never felt feminine, you know?

27:08

Did your mother acknowledge you or say you look pretty or did any.

28:10

Yeah, never, Never. And when I said, I want to be a model, she said, oh, Chrissy, there's so many more beautiful girls out there. You know, just get a good job, go to university, get a good job. Forget about that. That's what I got. And I never. I never was told I was beautiful or pretty or anything, you know?

28:16

By anyone in your family?

28:47

No, but I don't think I really was. I don't. I was gangly and insecure and I stooped and my hair was always in my face. And yeah, I didn't. Yeah, I don't think I really was that. That pretty. And to this day, I don't feel pretty. I don't feel pretty. I never felt pretty the whole time of the 90s since I started violating. Never. But behind the camera, I feel beautiful. I feel powerful. I feel like maybe because. Maybe because I don't feel it's me behind the camera. It's. I'm like. I'm not a character, but I'm like me, but superhero me, you know? And I just love the whole feeling of creating a picture and trying to make it an amazing picture. Like the best. Like a masterpiece. I want everyone to be a masterpiece. So me on the street is not me in front of a camera.

28:49

Yeah.

30:12

It's really weird that I ended up in a job or I even wanted to be. You know, I was obsessed with being this model, like Janice Dickinson. I was obsessed, but I wasn't pretty. I didn't think I was pretty. I wasn't told I was pretty. It was just this fantasy of my head and. Yeah. And then, you know. But behind the camera, I knew. I knew I had something.

30:16

Because, I mean, you know, I've looked at all your photographs going back, and you were so pretty and you still are, and. But there's something in not being told it by. By someone. Well, especially not being told it by your mother that makes it seem like it can't possibly be true. Even though you had the evidence again and again. Being booked and booked and being on the covers of magazines and being, you know, an enduring figure in the fashion world. And I think it's real hard. It's hard to believe in it when that person doesn't say it to you. You know, the sort of relaxed confidence of that kind of. Kind of love between a mother and a daughter doesn't sort of.

30:50

Are you gonna make me cry? Okay. Yeah. I was never told that by my mom. In fact, my mom, she had seven kids. And that's a lot. That's too many. Because it's like having a lot of cats. You can't give them individual attention. And she. And she couldn't and she didn't. And she was often frustrated with. With life, with all her responsibilities. And it was a different time, too, you know, it was a different time, but I got very little attention. My brothers and sisters, the same. And I. Guess you always carry that with you. Yeah, you always. That's something that, if it's not established early on, you're gonna feel, like, not worth it, I guess, you know, not worth. Not worth much. I don't know.

31:47

It's hard to believe it's not true, isn't it? Even though, you know.

33:25

Well, I didn't ever. I don't believe it's not true. I don't know. I look at. I know I'm a great model. I know I'm a great model. I know it. I know that I can be amazing in front of a camera and present and make a good photograph. But beauty. I don't consider myself in that category. Not beautiful. Definitely not beautiful. Maybe weird or different or. But I embrace that. So I embrace that. I want to be like, the oddball, because I think there's a lot of oddballs out there, like, suffering like I did as a kid and not feeling like they have a place in life because they're different from everyone else. And I want to represent them, you know, because that was me. And it's tough as a kid, man. It's the worst as a kid. All you want to do is fit in.

33:29

Yeah. Because you've talked about your school years as being. You were a grade A student, but you've also talked about having no friends. And you said, I forgot everyone's name. That's how bad my childhood was. You said I blocked it out. And did anyone notice you were going through that?

34:49

Yeah, they noticed. Oh, you mean the kids at. The kids at school noticed. And because I was so gangly and hunched over and taller than the boys and I lacked confidence, they picked that up instantly. So I was, you know, I was bullied. But my parents. No, no, no, no, no. My parents. Nobody. No. And I really didn't know how to even do that, go to my parents and talk to them. I didn't know. I wasn't ever. Well, I didn't feel. I didn't feel comfortable, definitely. I mean, my parents died. Two years ago, pretty much. My dad died before the. It wasn't two years ago. I always think it's shorter than it was. What, the epidemic. Whatever it's called. My father died before, my mother died right after. So what was the question? What was I talking about?

35:13

You were talking about. I was asking you, did anyone notice what you were going through at school?

36:25

And I still don't feel comfortable. Up until their death, I never felt comfortable talking to them.

36:31

Yeah.

36:38

I never had to be in a car with my father, you know, driving. It was just. It was like being trapped in a prison. It felt like, get me out. Because I just couldn't relate. Yeah. I don't know. But they're dead now, so I don't have to worry about. It's terrible.

36:39

Cause you talked about this, feeling insecure and how. But knowing you're a good model. And how does that help you to be a good model? Cause you would think it would be contraintuitive, but actually it's something I've noticed in other great models, too. What's your resource that you switch on?

37:12

Yeah, well, again, it's like I feel I have to work harder to. So people don't concentrate so much on my face, you know, Like, I have to kind of. Just be fab. You know, like, show the clothes and take chances. You know, I take chances all the time. Not like, you know, life or death kind of chances, but like. But a photograph, like, do a pose that is off the wall and. It's. You know, it's about. I just lose myself. That's what I do. I lose my inhibitions. I lose my. My thoughts of being anything less than amazing, and I just go for it, you know, I just. I live for that, you know, it's like those are my moments where I feel the best. It's kind of sad.

37:36

It's great because you're so good at it, you know, and it's. You know, the things, the photographs, the pictures that you've done. And I was watching the film you made with Karl Lagerfeld In 2011, Tale of a Fairy, with you and Amanda Harlech and Freya Baer and these scenes, and it's all scripted, and scenes of you lying in bed smoking, and then. And somebody massaging your feet and then you freak out at this big party and. Yeah, it was quite strange film, though. What do you think Karl Lagerfeld was? What point was he making? Cause it wasn't female empowerment either. It was strange.

38:55

I think Carl had a fantasy about, you know, this life that didn't exist, and it was just like this rich woman who was. Who was kind of unhappy in love with her nephew and going down the drain, losing her money, you know, And I don't know. You know what? Carl. Carl never. I love him. I. I think he's the best guy. No, not the best. The most eccentric. He was brilliant. Brilliant. And what he did for the fashion industry. And he had a sick sense of humor, and he was. He was amazing, but some of his things just didn't make sense. I don't think you. I don't have. I don't think you have to think so deep about that movie because it was all over the place. I mean, all over the place.

39:48

It was actually quite good and better than a lot of fashion films. I mean, there was a kind of weird plot, and you were so good, and Amanda was brilliant, and all the freedom and the kind of emancipation was attributed to these young guys who actually weren't very good actors in the film. And all of you women were fantastic and. But it. You know, I liked it. I mean, I'm picking holes in it just because there was quite a lot to think about and sort of reminiscent of a. Like you said, an idea about a life that actually seems very dated or like more 1920s with everyone having nervous breakdowns and becoming morphine addicts.

40:55

Well, I believe we shot at Coco Chiral's original house in South France. I believe that was it.

41:47

Right.

41:58

So it was, you know, around that time. And the. He. Yeah, he just. He loved, in fact, the boy that I was in love with. I shouldn't say this, but Carl was also in love with.

41:59

That was very clear.

42:21

Was it clear?

42:23

Well, he got all the good lines. I mean, the good shot. He was the golden one. And all. All the women were having these terrible existentialist crisis and being ignored by their men, or someone's husband was paying attention to someone else. It was, like, the worst party you could go to.

42:24

Everybody would be happy. Oh, my God. Yeah.

42:51

Because also, you've been a judge on RuPaul's Drag Race 3 times. Is that correct?

42:56

Yeah.

43:04

Did you?

43:04

Well, the judge. Three times. And then I recently did backstage with Ru, and we talked to the queens, which was so sweet. Oh, it was so good and so funny. Oh, my God. I never laugh. No, really. I had a laugh on that show that. One of those laughs that make you feel slight. Like, so great. You wanted to keep going and going. You just lose control and you're, like, crying, and it was like one of those, because. Oh, it was. It was. Oh, it was, like, so great. Anyway. Yeah. So four types. And how was that? Well, the judging is a bit. Because Michelle Visage and Rue are so used to it. They're so good at it, and they're all saying things because you're supposed to throw things out, you know, like. But I don't know the lingo, and I just don't know how to do that. I'm not good at that. I have to face it. So I just make silly comments, that's all. And they're kind of always sexy, you know, like, oh, you better get that. See, I can't do it. Give me a sexy antidote. Like, When was the last time you got that thing polished? Or. That's stupid. See, I had so much fun. I love it. I love it.

43:05

Yeah. I love RuPaul. I find him incredibly witty and brilliant and so bright. I mean, the things he says. I mean, I just watch him on Instagram, but I find him. He's like a philosopher. He's so cool.

44:52

He really is.

45:09

Yeah.

45:10

Do you know, I. I love him as a friend. You know, we just fell into this friendship, and I went to see him talk at south bank, and I was, like, mesmerized by. He actually has such a good thing that he represents and that his words are so enlightening and so motivating and so, like, helpful to people. I mean. Cause he's so bright. You're right. And he's so. He does it with humor, but he does it like, listen, I've been there. And he's just really. I mean, I learned a lot on that. And he is for me. I mean, if he wasn't gay, I'd marry him. I mean, I'd have such a crush on him because it's like, the mind is brilliant. And I think he's one of the best. The best men Saigon I ever met. I really do. I feel comfortable with him, and I don't feel comfortable with a lot of people. And I can sit in a room with him alone and feel comfortable. So that's a big test. Yeah, I love him because.

45:10

Did you have that with Steven Meisel, too? Because I read somewhere that you'd said, I'd marry him if he wasn't gay.

46:53

Oh, Stephen would be my number one. He's just. I mean, I. I had dreams about him when. When I took off, it had the babies and for years I had dreams about him and, like, how he. He loved me. And. They weren't sexy dreams. No, but they were just like, he wants me and he's holding me. And it's because he's so wonderful with women. He loves them. And the way he touches you. Like, he's so gentle, and he makes you feel like the most beautiful woman in the world. The most important woman. And he's. And he's so, like, beautiful.

47:01

And he's so quiet, too. He doesn't say much.

48:03

He's so quiet. But he gets it, you know, like when a person gets it, you know, even though they're quiet, you know, he's not so quiet. When you talk to him after, he's not so quiet. But what he is is shy. He's shy like me. I mean, I'm still shy, but he goes about it differently than me. And he's so. He is the best photographer of this generation anyway. I mean, the pictures that have influence. The young kids don't know how influential his pictures were and are, but, like, were at the time he took them just. They were mind blowing.

48:07

Yeah, totally. He changed everything. He just. And that last cover that you did with him, Vogue, British Vogue, 2022, that. Your face and your. Everything, you just look so at ease and it's so beautiful. And he has this thing he does with a model's face where you feel like you're she's thinking into you, and you're with her, and she's with you. He really brings somebody's personality into being in that photograph.

49:07

No, he does. He does. He makes you feel, like I said, at ease because you feel beautiful, you feel important, you feel like he wants you there.

49:46

Because in lockdown, you started creating these amazing setups of photos that you then posted on Instagram. And they're the most beautiful and amazing pictures. And it's like you reinvented yourself again as, wow, what's Kristen up to? And you. Everyone was just waiting for these photos. And you were married to the art dealer Ivor Bracker at the time, who has an amazing art collection he loved. I remember him saying how much he loved these photographs that you did. And were you. Were any of those setups influenced by paintings that he had?

50:05

Well, it was my home at that time. I mean, I kind of lived in a museum, basically. It was like. Because he showed his art there, and it was. It was all around me every day, all this incredible stuff. I mean, there was a Picasso hanging there. There was Lucian Freud. There was like, everything was in his house. And it was like, wow. And then when I started to do these pictures, it's because I had all these clothes, and I just wanted to wear them. And it's like I started wearing them in the house, you know, just every day. And, you know, the kids would be like, why are you wearing that? So I just thought, you know what I'll do? I'll just, like, put them on and model them, you know, and then, you know, the house was incredible. Incredible house. The most incredible house probably I will ever live in. But it's. It came from the lockdown because Ivor and I went to a lot of events, so I wore them out all the time. And then there was, you know, all dressed up and nowhere to go. So I thought, okay, I'll get all dressed up and get my pictures taken. So my family started running away when they saw me, because it's like, great pictures, though.

50:55

They were brilliant.

52:33

I. I realized when I started doing it that, hey, I can do this. Like, I've got something that I didn't know I had. And I don't know, I can't put my word on it, creativity. But it was something I did not know I had, which I was so happy about, because it was like, I'm not just a model, because as a model, you kind of have to wait like a starving dog for that phone call. You know, it's like. And you're waiting for this call to say, guess what? You know, you got this big camp contract for l'. Oreal. And, you know, I practice because I'm worth it, you know, in the mirror a hundred times, but the call never comes. And then you get a call finally from your agent. It's like, oh, there's a party. You know, it's like, don't tell me about a stupid party I want to drop. And you just wait and you wait and you wait. And the thing is, while you're waiting, you should be relaxing. You should be living your life. But you can't. You can't because every day it's waiting for that phone call. I didn't want to wait anymore. Like, I wanted to be able to just. Just. Just do what? Do something that I could do by myself without somebody else's approval of me. You know, I didn't think it would get so popular, but it did.

52:35

It did.

54:34

Yeah.

54:35

I'm Astad Herndon, and this is America. Actually, we're all talking to each other to see what did we do wrong? What did we not see? I'm in Washington, D.C. this week to interview Ruben Gallego. He's a Democratic senator from Arizona, and he's been thinking openly about running for higher office. But he's recently run into some hot water because of his connection to Congressman Eric Swalwell. I have to learn from this, and I will learn from this. But, you know, for me, it's not a 2028 question. It's about what it means to be a better first boss in my office and also a better senator to my constituents. This week on America, actually, we asked Gallego about predatory behavior in Washington, his plans for immigration reform, and more. From Iran to Venezuela to China, what is driving President Trump's foreign policy? Both Russia and China are big losers if there's a transition in the nature of the. Of the Iranian government, which, again, is why I think we have to see this campaign through. I'm Jake Sullivan. And I'm John Finer, and we're the

54:35

hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, Trump's former national security advisor,

55:41

HR McMaster and deputy national Security Advisor Matt Pottinger.

55:47

Join us.

55:51

The episode's out now. Search for and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

55:52

Hi, everyone. Kara Swisher here. We just won the Webby Award for the best interview show in news, business, and society. And I've had some great guests on my podcast on with Kara Swisher. Here are some you don't want to miss Tristan Harris, the co founder of the center for Humane Technology. I talked to him about his biggest worry when it comes to development and deployment of AI. Hint, hint. It has something to do with the CEOs and how they stand to profit. I interviewed documentarian Louis Theroux. His latest documentary, into the Manosphere, focuses on the incredible and horrifying influence this group of individuals has, especially on young men and boys. And recently I caught up with Katie Couric, Amy LaRocca and my brother Jeff Swift to debunk some of the fads and misinformation behind the billion dollar wellness industry. And we talked about the important medical tests that are actually worth your while. All of these conversations are available now. You can find them on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. And we've got plenty more lined up for the summer, so be sure to subscribe to on with Kara Swisher to catch them all.

55:59

Because also you've had quite alpha boyfriends and husbands. And do you go loud or quiet when someone's overly focused on you?

56:59

It was different with each husband. Each husband. I think the first time I got married, it was like he was my father and took care of me. He wasn't like my father, but, you know, he was like a father that took care of me, paid all the bills because as a model, I never did any of that. I had no concept of reality. My agents took care of everything. I didn't know how to pay a bill. I didn't know how to look at a bank statement. I knew nothing. I didn't know how to clean or anything. I was just a complete kind of invalid in a way. So I became very subservient. And as soon as I stopped modeling and moved to this suburban London area, I felt like I was in a criminal. Criminal, you know, protection, Witness protection. Witness protection. I felt like I was living like that, like I was taken from here. Paris, you know, glamour and boom, mother, you know, talking to the parents outside the gate, waiting for your children to come. I was like, it was just such a different life that I didn't know how to live it. So I was pretty quiet, pretty, like passive, I would say. I didn't know who I was, you know, it was like I didn't know. So progressively with Iver, yeah, I had more fun because I was definitely finding myself. And now I'm just hoping that, you know, that I'm not quiet with Warren at all. I. I think I know myself or know my worth, I guess. Not my worth because I'M always insecure. I know my. Yeah, I guess myself, if this is myself, I guess I know myself. I don't think anyone gets to know themselves. I don't think so.

57:11

I suppose we keep changing so you get to know this other bits of yourself, which is kind of enjoyable, isn't it?

1:00:07

It's kind of interesting. Yeah. But when somebody says they get to know themselves or be there, I don't know who the hell I am. All I can say is, like, when I'm at home, I feel. Yeah, I feel. Definitely feel better. And I can eat the way I want to eat. Like Iver made you have the fork and the knife and the whole setting for lunch, for dinner, it was like, now I just put. I make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and I just eat it there. I don't care if it goes everywhere. I don't care if it's all over my face. It's, like so enjoyable. It's like there's no rules. Like, no rules. So I want to keep it that way.

1:00:15

And if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

1:01:04

Well, I wouldn't fancy them, right? No way. I would not fancy them. It is so superficial, but it represents that person. Yeah, for sure.

1:01:10

For me.

1:01:26

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They gotta be dressed the part they wanna be. My boyfriend.

1:01:27

Yeah.

1:01:35

And the first time I saw Warren, boy, he was hot. He was like a suit, but a really good suit. Not like all the rock and roll chains. A shirt, you know, old. Old shoes with pointed tips and. Yeah, he looked good.

1:01:36

Yeah, he knows how to dress, doesn't he?

1:02:08

Well, yeah, he knows how to dress, but now he's going crazy with his Adidas and Yeezy sneakers and stuff. I'm like, oh, no. I hope he doesn't give up, because if he starts dressing, if he starts wearing blue jeans and a T shirt and a baseball hat, he's out. No, he's not. But, you know, it's like, if he showed up that way when I first met him, he'd be. He would be with me.

1:02:10

Because I bumped into you recently. We were coming back from Paris on the Eurostar together, and you were reading me some of the writing that you were doing, and it was really good, and it stayed in my thoughts a lot. It was. You read me out of this journal that you were keeping, and it was like a road movie and very immediate. And how did you know what your. How do you know what your voice is as a writer?

1:02:52

Well, originally I had a ghostwriter come in from la and she spent three days with me and then went back and wrote a chapter and came back and it was hollow. You know, it might have been good writing, but it was hollow. It was just nothing there. And then I thought, well, she can't write my biography. She cannot do it. I have to do it. I'm the only one who was there with the thoughts, with the feelings, what I saw, what I don't remember. And it's my voice that if somebody else did write it, people that know me would know in a second, it's like it'll be too sterile. So I just write it the way I think it. And I don't know if it's. It's just the way I speak. So it's all I have at the moment. So that's what I do. I just like if in that I kind of put myself in that moment again, what I'm going through and what my mind is saying to me when I'm going through these things. And I put that in because it's like, oh. Oh, fuck, he did it again. Fuck, fuck, fuck. I'm a avid reader, so I just. I just love reading so much. Like, reading is my. Yeah, My escape and my. It's just. It's better than a Netflix series, you know, it's, like, so good when you get a good book.

1:03:26

But what are your favorite books?

1:05:09

Well, the one that inspired me to write my book was Demon Copperfield.

1:05:13

Oh, yeah, I've heard about that book.

1:05:23

What's her first name? King Fisher is her last name. And I read it, and it's about a boy. It's incredible that it was written by an older woman, but it's about a boy in the American foster system. And she writes the way he is thinking, is talking, is, you know, what he's going through when he's so. I just loved it. I loved her style. You felt like you were living with this person. You felt like you knew what he was. It was so good.

1:05:26

Yeah. Gosh.

1:06:04

But I want my book just to be entertaining. I want people to want to go back to it, because that's the fun of a book when you want to keep going back to find out.

1:06:06

Well, what you described to me was so cinematic. I'm still waiting for the next bit. And it was really exciting. So I hope you'll carry on with your writing.

1:06:18

Every day, really? Every day I sit down.

1:06:31

Oh, wow.

1:06:34

And if I get half a page, I get half a page. If I get sometimes 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. It's a good day, but every day I have to do it.

1:06:35

That's great. Well, thank you so much, Kristen Enemy, for being on Fashion Neurosis. It's been so much fun to hear some of your stories.

1:06:51

Thank you, Bella. It's really great being here.

1:07:02

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1:07:22