You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Herway. This episode contains explicit language. Jesse Reyes is a singer and songwriter originally from Toronto. She's won two of Canada's Juneau Awards and she's been nominated for a Grammy. In addition to writing her own music, Jesse's been a songwriter on tracks by Calvin Harris, Duolipa, Sam Smith, Eminem, and many others. You're probably aware that there are songwriters and producers whose names you'll find over and over again in the credits for Big Hits. Jesse is one of them. But for this episode, I talked to her about her own song, Goliath. And the day that she wrote that song, she happened to be in the studio with a bunch of other songwriters and producers. So I also talked to Jordan and Stefan Johnson from the production team Monsters and Strangers. And Jeff Gittleman, aka Giddy. Between the three of them, their credits also include songs by Selena Gomez, Maroon 5, Alicia Keys, Mac Miller, and again, tons more. When a group like this gets together to write music, they don't always know if they're going to be making a song that's going to get recorded and released by an artist somewhere down the line. Or if that song's going to get recorded at all. But in the case of Goliath, what came out was a song that was very personal to Jesse Reyes. I mean, I would put every stuff from the sky, a square cup with any Goliath. I won't walk you through any fire when I say I love you. I mean, I'll be trying to talk this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm around you. I was about to give up till I fall to an essay. I love you. Where were you on the first day that you started working on this song? We were at the studio at the Masters and Strangers' spot. It's a house that's been converted into a studio, which is great because the more I've done it, and the more I've been lucky enough to be a full-time musician, the more I've found that I have a special love for when it's like a home setup. It just feels much more intimate. And so they have a house that's been converted. We have a house in Sherman Oaks, California, where the garage is a studio that master bedrooms is studio, the guest bedrooms is studio. It's kind of like our home base for work. My name is Jordan Johnson, Monsters and Strangers. And I'm Stefan Johnson, Monsters and Strangers. And who else was in the studio with the two of you in Jesse that day? We don't write with Jesse with core writers very often. She is a full-fledged, she can do lyric melody, do the whole thing. But Jeff Guidi and also for Goliath, Lunch Money Lewis actually happened to be there. So is me and the boys. We were having a conversation with Jesse about some stuff that was going on in our life. And then the producer we were working with Jeff Guidi, he pulled up a bunch of music beds. Hello, my name is Jeff Giddleman, aka Guidi. The more experience I get and the older I get in this industry, the more I just really like to be prepared. And so with this song, in particular, I had an idea that I prepped. I came up with the idea on the world, it's her. And so I just heard like a 1, 2, 3, 4 major chord progression. And then I laid down the guitar. What's your main instrument? Do you have one? Well, yeah, I came up as a guitar player. My first job in the business was touring with Lauren Hill playing guitar in 2005. Was this lead guitar melody part in there from the very beginning? Yeah, I just want to do something that's melodic and iconic. Do you think you could explain why that's so important? So I asked one of my OGs, Craig Calman, one time, what makes a hit record? And he said, well, listen, rule number one is before the vocals come in, the music's got to sound like a hit. So I was like, oh shit, as a producer, I actually have a power without the lyrics and the melody, which are so important. But I have the power outside of that to make somebody feel something. And so yeah, I wanted to have a melody, but I didn't want to make it too high to where it gets in the way of the vocal. The older I get, the more I want to do it less. So it's literally one take of each instrument and on to tape. And off the bat, when I hear it back, it sounds exactly how I wanted to sound versus spending the same amount of time doing the take. And then having to spend 30 minutes, like messing with plugins. And so besides the bass and the two guitars and the port and element that I thought belonged to as a Hammond B3 organ. Instead of just playing one sound, I'm constantly changing my foot pedal on the volume, I'm constantly changing the draw bars. And so you're not listening for it, subconscious, but it's evolving pretty much throughout the whole thing. Who's playing that trumpet? That is my friend Miles Julian. And so yeah, that was in the original little loop that I played for Monsters and Jesse that day. So we were in the room playing the music. And I was in there with my eyes closed. It was my niece's birthday. And I hadn't been able to speak to her in a long time. Despite trying, I hadn't been able to speak to her. It was just a difficult time with my family, some of my family. Me and my brother and my sister and I were going through it. And by default, I haven't been able to see the kids as much as I'd like to. Their kids? Yeah. Who are my favorite people? And then I got my call returned and I got her on the phone. And I left the studio and I went outside and I was trying to keep it together. And she's younger and I started getting emotional and I was really trying to control it. Because you know when adults understand those kind of tears, but kids don't, they're kind of perplexed. So it was just, it was combustible. It was like, really, it was a lot and I was trying to keep it together. We talked for a bit. We met and we said goodbye. And then it was water works. And then I got my bearings and then I went back inside. And when I got back in the room, I shut my eyes and also leaned back. Because there was tears coming on, I'm much on the crying room for the people either. So I was leaning back. The tears are going sideways. Because I was just thinking about how much I love her. Let me play the voice memo that you sent me. When I said I love you, I mean I would pull every star from the sky, because my everyone on the Bible, and I would walk through any fire. Walk through, walk through, walk, walk in bed, foot through the fire. When I said I love you, and as I pull every star from the sky, I'm free, I would press at the title. And you sent me, I sent the title. When I said I love you, I love you. It's interesting to listen to that voice memo, because one, the music is slower. But also, you're going through this thing, but the guys in the background are just chatting. I was in the same room, but I was in another world. I remember her getting emotional that day during the process. You could see it was like a pure feeling that she was channeling. She just went into her, we call her little trance state, where she'll literally stay silent for 30 minutes to an hour or two hours. And then she'll pop her head up, she'll be like, all right, I got something. It's funny, because it sounds so easy, but it's also a technique that I've worked on for over a decade. Her writing process is so crazy, and she doesn't write anything down, and it's like almost so instant. She doesn't write anything down. Oh, yeah. She doesn't write a thing down. She writes it from babyface, well, babyface said, if it's good enough, you'll remember. And this was a long time ago, because I've been working for years, I've never seen her write stuff down. And she instantly gets the melody and the lyrics. And the chorus to Goliath came up. When I said I love you, I mean, I would pull every step from the sky I was quite up with any Goliath. I won't walk into any fire when I said I love you. I ain't trying to talk this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm around you. I was particularly full till I found you. What was right about this music to connect this experience that you've been going through to that feeling? Some chords just elicit that sort of reaction. They feel warm. They feel nostalgic. They feel like a hug. Yeah, it just feels like love. So it was like the perfect canvas. Every lyric can be more true. I just love her. My conversation with Jessie Reyes and the story of making Goliath continues after this. When I first heard the hook, I was like, you know, this is like one of the sickest love songs. Like this could be timeless classic. And then that's when she kind of explained that like she wasn't writing it as a love song, a romantic love song. And then once the chorus was done, I again got my bearings again, kind of got my footing. And then I looked at it a little bit more pragmatically and strategically and it was reminded myself that everybody understands that sort of love unless you have kids in your life, unless you have a relationship like that with kids where it's like pure love, you don't really understand that until you do. But if you don't, it's something foreign. So I thought what's more universal? Well, it seems like romantic love is much more universal than that kind of love. So then the verses are deliberately more romantic. That lyric. Let me broken the waters pouring. It's a me and tap, will pay. So that lyric, it was originally in this song that I wrote years ago called French Boys. And it ended up going in the pitch folder because it just didn't feel right for me at the time. What does that mean? The pitch folder? Just songs that I love, but like sweaters I've made that don't fit me, but I know they're elite. So they go in the pitch folder for when artists are looking that I know I could pitch this song for that artist or pitch this song for that movie. You know? So it went into that pitch folder and then we ended up pitching it to Lisa from Black Pink. They loved it. But they asked for some revisions. But it's so cool when moments happen like this where a lyric can come to live and still see the light of day just somewhere else. It was nice that I was able to save it. The lead that every contact from a phone baby, if from one is dying trying to talk to no one, but the cut of the noms are from a home, baby, if from one is stuck at every single hole for you. I recorded it without drums, so it's very leaned back. In terms of the rhythm and feel of your delivery? Yeah, I was hell-ealing back because there was no drums. And then the drums got added after. The person playing drums on this record is Drew McCann. And when the drums got added after, I talked to the guys and I was like, fuck, I feel like I should be recorded. Jesse tried multiple times to re-sync over the drums. But they looked at me and they were like, just, it sounds elite because it sounds like very floaty. It sounds like a real thing. I was like, I'm not sure if I can do it. I was like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I can do it. I'm not sure if I can do it. I'm not sure if I can do it. I was like, very floaty. It sounds right still. Don't second-guess it. It sounds right. I was like, okay. The lead and every contact from my phone. Baby, if I'm honest, I ain't trying to talk to no one. But to cut the linear arms off from my home. Baby, if I'm honest, I'd have every single hole for you. But I felt like some of the pocket was a little off, so then we manually adjusted, I don't know, maybe three or four words in the second verse, just to sit forward a bit more. Jesse ran me through the ringer a little bit. What we ended up doing is nudging some of the original vocals around instead of using the new ones. It was just nice to be able to go in meticulous. And I loved it. I just got to think that praise is so much because in the moments where I do feel like going into the minutia and editing and like to someone else, to someone that doesn't care about it, it's going to feel tedious. But to someone who cares just as much and someone who trusts you as much as you trust them, they're going to be like, cool, come in. I'll make two hours today. I'll make an hour of my time. I got sessions about coming and we'll do those little minor changes. To move a word, a millisecond to the right, and a millisecond to the left. And then the left is too much, so now split the millisecond difference, and now do that. And now let's change the BPM again. And now let's AMB them. And it's very, very tedious, meticulous, but tedious shit arguably. But when you give a fuck, it matters. And again, not everybody's like that. Not everybody's like a production team is going to be like, yes, we're coming in. We got sessions today, but we'll go in the other room and we'll make this happen. And they did. Yeah, anything for Jesse. Watching her right songs is like watching a basketball player do 360 double-handed dunks. And just it's just, it's an incredible thing to witness. It's really a feel, a privilege to be able to witness her process. And also very grateful that she lets us into the process to be able to mold things, specifically in the pre-chorus. The pre, for me, was originally the post. Find there's keepers, looses, away, birds, let the streets cry. Find there's keepers, looses, away, birds, now you're all mine. I recorded everything, and then I think I went to do something. And then when I came back, Steph was at the point and he was like, hey, he's like, we just did a little change. Tell me how you feel, and it just feels so much better. And he was 100% right. They were right. The beautiful thing about Monsters and Strangers is that they really understand, you know, what's the most iconic part of the record? What's the part that's the hook? What's the key? Just formatting and putting a record together and getting the best out of artists. Find there's keepers, looses, away, birds, now you're all mine. I'm a student of this game, and I remember years ago I saw an interview that Pharrell did, and he was talking about how in songs, there's just nothing new. There's nothing new under the sun. Everything's been written about. But the beauty and the artistry is in finding those classic quintessential human emotions that are in the music. And then when I came back, I was like, hey, I'm going to do something. The potential human emotions are in moments and describing them in a different way. Also, he was like, it's really slick, if you can pull on someone's nostalgia, because there's moments that you just, you know, your inner child just holds close. It's like, if you could, if you could do that, because it's going to resonate more with somebody if you were able to pull that way. I think that's so cool, so I was able to do that in that pre. By saying fine, just by saying the words, by keeping... Find your skippers, yeah, post to nostalgia already. When she first laid down the chorus, I think we were just in the room all kind of being like, That moment to me, it just started feelings like a record. I don't know. It just felt like magic. That's one of my favorite parts about the recorded two. Just a little piece. How did you feel about the song by the time you'd finished all the work for it. I know the song was great. They made it. I'm not. I'm grateful. But I know it was great. How often do you feel that way. A lot of my quality product comes from my quantity. I'm lucky that I'm able to do that because not all my songs are great, some of my songs suck, but that's how I'm able to get them because my output is so fucking high that I can make 10 and 10 might be shit, but 11 is gonna be lit. And you're not gonna get to number 11 unless you do get through one through 10. You're not gonna get to the good songs yet until you get through the shitty ones. The funny thing about this one, I actually prepped this idea for a whole other artist. Really? I sent it to the artist that I was prepping it for and they, I don't think they ever reply to my text message. And so I'm just like, oh, okay, I guess they don't love it. And so I put it back into my vault. And then when you know, when we're working with Jess, I was like, oh, you know it. Let me go into this little chapter right here. And then that's when I pressed play and right off the bat, we just see, heard it, knew what it was, and nailed it. Has your niece been able to hear this song? Have you had a chance to talk to her since that call? No. I'm sorry. That's okay. That's okay. It is what it is. Nothing's perfect. I don't know she anywhere here. Hopefully she has. Just loving. And now here's Goliath by Jesse Reyes and its entirety. But I can't tell the fact that you love me like I saw in the morning. But you kiss me like I'll fight the night. Many blessings the cup run is over. Slow love and it's a holy night. Love you broken the waters pouring. It's only a tearful pain. No letting go babies you were party. Holding my tater in the time. Fighters keepers losers weepers let the streets cry. Fighters keepers losers weepers not you oh mine. When I said I love you I mean I would pull every star from the sky. I was quite hopper than you could life. I won't walk you to the end. When I say I love you I mean I'm trying to do this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm ready. I was bout to give up till I fall. When I say I love you. When I say I love you. The lady that every contact from my phone baby if I'm one is nine trying to talk to no one but you got to do your arms off my home baby if I'm one is that that everything go for you. I'm a little look up but you look only much and germinize I really know for getting that touch but I've been looking at our pigs in the pond. They keep got me hooked on you like I hit some. Fighters keepers losers weepers let the streets cry. Fighters keepers losers weepers not you oh mine. When I say I love you I mean I would pull every star from the sky. I was quite hopper than you could life. I won't walk you to the end. When I say I love you I mean I'm trying to do this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm ready. I was bout to give up till I fall. When I say I love you. Oh. Visit songexploder.net to learn more you'll find links to buy and stream Goliath and you can watch the music video. This episode was produced by me Craig Ely, Mary Dolan and Kathleen Smith with production assistance from Tiger Biscope. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of radio Topia from PRX and network of independent listener supported artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. I read a newsletter where I talk about the making of some of these episodes and about music and film and generally about the creative process and you can find a link to that newsletter on the song exploder website. You can also get a song exploder shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishi Keish here away. Thanks for listening. Did you hear the key change episode that I did with Jason Schwartzman? If so, do you remember him telling the story of how Davie and Nelson discovered him and got him to audition for Rushmore? Well, that Davie and Nelson is one of the kitchen sisters along with Nikki Silva and they are the award winning producers of so many podcast stories and radio series and they're also my fellow radio topians. And they've got a new series that ties all this together because this year for the first time there's going to be an Oscar for achievement in casting. And the kitchen sisters are going to take us behind the scenes to meet the Academy Award nominees and learn about the mysterious fascinating world of film casting. Plus, it's hosted by four time Oscar winner Francis McEnormon. So check out the kitchen sisters present. Everyone's a casting director. The first ever Academy Award for achievement in casting in the 98 year history of the Academy Awards. I can't wait to listen. Check it out at kitchencisters.org or wherever you get your podcasts.
