What To Do If Confronted By ICE

hey everybody welcome back to the find out podcast uh we've got today you've got tim me you've got rich you've got zach you got luke and we have a special guest because we decided we kept talking about all this legal stuff that we should actually bring on somebody that knows something about the law. So we have a we have Eliza Orleans, who is a 15 year public defender in Manhattan and also was on not one, but two seasons of Survivor, season nine and season 16. So, Eliza, thank you for joining us. Of course. I'm so happy to be here with you. I mean, this is always a fun time when we're together. Yeah, we all know each other from the sort of, I'll say the creator, I can't say influencer, the creator world and everything. So it's nice to finally talk in public. So, Eliza, so basically just confirm everything that ICE is doing is perfectly legal and we're all overreacting and we don't have to worry about this. Correct? Oh, yeah, sure. So, let's just talk about this. There's actually nine people, I believe, that ICE is now murdered. uh there's some some debate online because people have been focusing on renee good and um and uh alex pretty but there are actually seven others and we want to make sure that that is clear too that we are not sort of you know whitewashing because the reality is the other seven are uh mostly people of color so we want to make sure it's not two it's nine um eliza so not to mention the folks who've been murdered in detention detainment right right so uh trying to figure out the best best way to start this off but let's talk about the alex pretty one for example because we have the video footage of that um in your again we're going by video so no one was there so like this is there's the caveat there but from your perspective did he do anything illegal no i mean and and i think like my perspective is not even a legal one necessarily i think you know this is something that we are so lucky that there are brave people like the woman who was in the pink jacket who recorded the entire thing very clearly and actually i just watched her interview this morning with anderson cooper on cnn where she is speaking out and saying hey i was scared i was terrified but i knew that it was really important for me to keep recording despite my fear because this is how we get this information out there and make sure they can't just lie about what happened And even with the clear video, of course, we see, you know, DHS, Kristi Noem, the entire administration trying to lie about what actually happened. Yeah, I mean, they actually made up stuff, right? It came out yesterday that Stephen Miller apparently dictated Kristi Noem's original statements in which she referred to him as, I think, a domestic terrorist. Domestic terrorist and assassin. He was coming with a gun to an assassin, which then obviously turned out to not be true. He never pulled the gun. In fact, I said taken the gun from him before they shot him, I believe, 10 times. Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I mean, it's it's absolutely insane, because I think what people don't realize is you have the absolute right to film law enforcement. It is your First Amendment right like you cannot. I mean, you certainly can't be executed for it. even if you're committing a crime allegedly you can't be executed without due process and a trial and and a conviction and we don't even have the death penalty in most states i mean there's so there's so few things that would require someone to be executed but like these extrajudicial executions that they are committing out on the streets in public for not even committing a crime it's just it's beyond anything i can could possibly well and they throw out the term domestic terrorist as if that's like an exception. So since you work in the legal field, could you just give us a quick legal definition of a domestic terrorist? Oh my gosh, the legal definition of domestic terrorist. It's like there, I mean, there is obviously like a complete like definition under the law as to what that means. I think like the, you know, this is I don't want to define it legally without having the legal definition in front of me because I'm worried that I might misspeak and I don't want it to be incorrect in any way. But I do think that it's just completely ridiculous that they would even remotely call Alex Preddy a domestic terrorist. Ted Kaczynski was a domestic terrorist. Timothy McVeigh was a domestic terrorist, right? doing action and this is not legal of course and i know that's what you were you know you were trying to get the actual info but for me as a non-lears it's like no it's okay like also yeah you're you're also not a constitutional scholar so like that's understandable you wouldn't have this all memorized but uh you have to you have to be inciting some sort of terror right like there has to be and all he was doing was standing there with a camera no gun like a camera and then actually the other thing that is worth us mentioning there was no protest there right Exactly. They created that protest. It was it was nine. There was no protest. And I should apologize because that that question was a little tongue in cheek because there's no such thing as a domestic terrorist organization. There's a foreign terrorist organization. And that's a thing like they they think that if they start calling us ISIS, basically, or Al Qaeda, they tried to do it with Antifa, that they could like create something from thin air. You can, obviously, you can commit, you know, crimes that are, there's no way to circumvent the legal process in due process. So when I hear these dog whistle words, it's not really a dog whistle anymore, but when I hear these expressions like, oh, well, he's supporting domestic terrorism, it's like, what are you talking about? Free speech? That's what we're talking about? Free speech is supporting domestic terrorism now? Right. I mean, domestic terrorism, you know, it's like things that stem from like extremist ideological positions and are, you know, homegrown, not foreign, obviously. But the way that they're trying to classify people who are just standing up for their neighbors as domestic terrorists is ridiculous. Yeah, I actually have a sort of in the weeds question is more about Renee Good's situation. and I was fighting with a Republican friend of mine about this and his and this is a typical Republican thing when it comes to any sort of situation like this with, you know, any kind of law enforcement. He's like, well, she's impeding their ability to do their job. And I'm sitting there going, if I were the attorney for I'd be like, what is her? How is she impeding this? She's blocking half the road and then waving people by. Like, so when you get into a courtroom and obviously they would make that argument of she was impeding their investigation. Would that actually hold up in court or is that like a Fox News talking point where in reality that would just get shot down in court? Well, so I mean, listen, even if she were impeding, obviously the penalty for impeding, i.e. like, you know, there's a crime in New York that's called obstruction of governmental administration, OGA. It is a misdemeanor. It requires like the maximum punishment would be one year in jail but most people who i've ever represented over 15 years of practice who've been in charge with oga have spent one night in jail for that crime so oga is something that they charge when they like don't like what you're doing you know it's like disorderly conduct or disorderly behavior these are not real crimes these are crimes when you're like you've annoyed a police officer in some way so um if she were impeding you know they're still they can't shoot her in the face like that three times summarily executed for that exactly i mean it more in the realm of like could like could what she did actually legally be defined as impeding because my argument was no because in reality there was literally no imposition created in any way shape or form cars could still get past her like to me it was like legally she was not impeding anything just on that point i mean that's because that's where they all stayed all these maybe traffic law that's about it but also that's you know that's a question of fact that would be one for a jury. So like, let's say they did charge her with, you know, blocking traffic obstruction, impeding whatever, whatever the crime, the local crime in Minnesota were. If they charged her with that, that would still be something that the prosecution would have to present to a jury and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was impeding. And her lawyer would have the opportunity to say, no, but look, here's video. They could get around her. She was not in fact impeding, but this becomes a question of fact. And, and there's no opportunity for a trial when they are shooting her in the right fucking face yeah that's right and then i assume because you were you've been a public defender in manhattan for a long time you've dealt with shooting cases and gun charges and things like that so in this particular case with renee good uh i mean from us the non-lawyers you know you're looking at this and being like where on earth was his life at risk and my understanding and correct me if i'm wrong is for every shot you fire as a law enforcement officer you have your life has to be at risk during all of it each shot is that correct well yes but also i mean i don't think his life was ever at risk during a single one of those shots for the first shot to be ill or to be legal and then the second shot and the third shot the fourth shot or whatever to be illegal well i guess so but um i mean i just think it's like i almost think that we're validating something like by even entertaining that position is validating like that officer there was no position ever for his life right right right ever well this is one minute not during the first shot not during the third shot not you know there are listen in some states there are things like you know we have we've we've probably you've probably heard discussions about things like stand your ground laws castle doctrine castle doctrine sure but in new york and also in Minnesota, there's what's called the duty to retreat. We don't have you can't in New York. You cannot even if your life is at risk, you can't just kill someone who is approaching you. And that applies to everyone because you have a duty to retreat. So if there is space behind you, if you can run, you can't, you know, attack. And so, you know, this is something that's like not even it's like lethal force was never necessary in the case of Renee Good, you know, no reasonable officer with the same facts would ever have been able to, you know, she was shot while she was driving away. Like this is, you know, deadly force is extremely difficult to justify legally and you can never use it against a fleeing person unless they pose an ongoing and immediate threat, which like there's no question that she did. It's not. Something that to me is really interesting because, you know, people forget, they think, well, like, Trump will just pardon everybody. Every state has their own laws and murder is a state charge. There's not, I don't even know if there is a federal murder charge unless you murdered like a federal agent or something like that. But if you kill a person in a state, you're subject to the criminal law of that state. And so, and there's no, there's no statute of limitations for murder. I think probably in any state, certainly not in Minnesota. these ICE agents they will forever be accountable to their crimes and if they're determined at any point even if it's in 2040 that they committed a crime in 2025 or 2026 they're fucked when it's a crime with no statute of limitations I mean I think this is such a great point Rich because this is something that I feel like so many people are missing and I actually just posted a very like in-depth kind of video and and substack about this exact thing which is a that federal agents are not immune from state criminal law right if a federal officer unlawfully kills someone that can be murder it can be manslaughter it could be homicide whatever you want to call it negligent i mean there are so many different levels of killing people but it is being a federal officer does not give you a license to kill and they're subject to state homicide statutes and state assault laws and state reckless endangerment laws and state endangering the welfare of a child laws. I mean, all of that and local prosecutors need to step up and prosecute them. And so, like, I know that there are nine DAs who have just signed on to say that they're going to do this, like, you know, really brave, progressive DAs who are saying, you know, I'm not going to be intimidated. I'm going to I'm going to prosecute Larry Krasner in Philadelphia, Obviously, Mary Moriarty in Hennepin County in Minnesota. And now seven others have joined them. And I hope more DAs will do so. And so I you know encouraging my audience and anyone listening to look up your local prosecutor and say hey if if the ice comes into our community into our county to do these kinds of things will you prosecute them so i sorry pressure them one because the answer should be fucking yes because i confused because jd vance is a lawyer he went to the yale law from yale law school i know right he's a lawyer and he said they have absolute immunity and he he sort of kind of walked it back by saying that nobody ever said that but so you're telling me that that they don't have absolute immunity from all consequences i mean first of all there's no there no there's no such thing as absolute immunity i i i don't i mean it's there are there okay so there is something called qualified immunity but that applies to civil lawsuits not criminal prosecution it doesn't protect against murder charges you know it's i mean what what the fuck is jd vance talking about this is like if he were right which he's not then what federal agents could just kill civilians and states could never prosecute like it just makes no sense and he is an embarrassment to yale law school and to lawyers everywhere and well for so many reasons he's he's he's he's an embarrassment to americans in general, right? I mean, like, he blamed undocumented immigrants for his mother's drug addiction, but she got, and this is not to knock how she became a drug addict, but she got her drugs at the hospital in which she worked. It was not fentanyl on the street. Like, this guy has no problem like changing a narrative to give him more power. So I'm not incredibly surprised that he did that. But another question for you on the legal side. So obviously those, those ICE officers who killed, well, all nine of these people, they are obviously liable in the prosecution. But what about the federal government, like, basically impeding the investigation of the state? Are there any, like, honestly, we know Donald Trump can't be because of this ridiculous Supreme Court ruling. But are Christy Noem or, I guess, number two, Corey Lewandowski, which I don't really want to even talk about why he's there. So people could just go look it up himself. Go watch Barrett. Go watch Barrett Adair's video on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So are they or Greg Bovino or any of these, you know, the the wannabe SS officer? Are they or is there a potential prosecution for them as well? So, you know, for people who don't know what's going on, basically, the Minnesota state officials who were trying to look into these, you know, these murders, they said that they didn't have access to key evidence after these fatal shootings because the feds took control of these investigations and wouldn't share evidence with state prosecutors. And so, you know, this is playing out in the courts because essentially Mary Moriarty had to go to the courts. And I think this is also playing out in California where they're saying they're going to fight federal obstruction. But but essentially they they had to get a court order saying that they Mary Moriarty filed a lawsuit against it was DHS, ICE, CBP, Christy Noem. And I guess Attorney General Pam Bondi, I think were the named parties, basically saying that they wanted they wanted the court to make a ruling to say that we have we are entitled to you know, you can't just take this evidence and hide it from us. We're entitled to hold our elected officials and appointed members of the federal government politically accountable. We are allowed to challenge this in court. We have, you know, all of this stuff. And it's just it's insane that they're needing basically lawsuits. They're needing to file in court to get these to get this evidence. Right. But yeah, the feds are actively hindering these state investigations and it makes it extremely difficult for state prosecutors to get the truth. And so, yeah, you know, attorney state attorneys general. So like Keith Ellison in Minnesota, other folks have have said they're going to push back and they're going to litigate this in court if they have to. But it's really outrageous that they are actively hindering state investigations. Yeah, I talked to Keith Ellison last week. He's the he's the attorney general for Minnesota. And I asked him point blank. I'm like, have you heard anything from the administration at all? And he said, no, nothing. And I'm just trying to imagine a scenario in which the Biden administration or the Obama administration had a law enforcement event in, let's say, Alabama, and somebody lost their lives. What do you think these guys would have done? Right. Like, it's very obvious that this is a political play. This is this isn't really even about protecting the ICE officers. It's protecting themselves politically. But I would actually argue this seems more dangerous for them than just handing these guys over because now Democrats can run in 26 and in 28 on prosecuting these people who murdered American civilians. It doesn't seem very wise politically, right? Like, just get rid of it and move on. But, I mean, we aren't also dealing with the sharpest tools of the shit. I mean, did you see what that motherfucker on the news did? He was like, if I hold my phone like this, it looks like a gun. Well, that was, what is his name? He's on Newsmax. Say no more. He is a total joke. It's fucking ridiculous. He did say that they got, like, look at this. It looks like a gun. It's like, but that's completely irrelevant because he didn't do that. He was just going like, actually, I think he was in Landscape. He was just doing this. Like, these guys are just, like, they're losing big. I mean, this is the problem for them, right? Like, the country is turning on them. And they are in a lot of trouble politically and legally because the Democrats are already starting to draft articles of impeachment for Kristi Noem. This isn't going away before the election. Like, it's insane to me. And Trump's just like, oh, I'll send Greg Bovino home and I'll send Tom Homan, the guy who took $50,000 of cash on camera and we never saw it again. He is supposed to solve this problem? Like, he's of the same cloth as the rest of these guys. yeah and you know what's unbelievable so like you know i obviously i'm a kind of an outlier because i do think i have pretty extreme positions on law enforcement generally but that's you know obviously comes from the experience of public defending for 15 years and like watching body worn camera where i know that body worn camera doesn't stop abuses and i literally have watched police officers who have their cameras on just beat the shit out of my clients just be completely abusive and just horrific. And and so I acknowledge my biases. But I think what's unbelievable is that we are seeing. Cops, actual conservative Trump supporting cops say, hey, this is bullshit. We all know this is bullshit. This is not OK. You know, everyone knows you don't take a shot like that, especially when the person's on the ground. Like law enforcement is turning on the MAGA movement like that is mind-boggling to me that i would ever be on the same side as police officers and the nra and you know second amendment i mean it's all like that is the shift that's happening like trump made that crazy statement about people possessing guns on the street knowing the left is going to get the guns well it's so crazy because i have i would say i'm very left when it comes to guns i worked at every town i like i've never owned a gun i had a bb gun when i was little that was about it uh so for like when i saw that the nra i mean it was kind of weak but like they did say no you have the right to carry i mean it depends on the state depends on the law but like in minnesota for example he didn't like uh alex didn't do anything illegal he got a concealed carry permit he was allowed to have it he didn't brand to shit like none of it like they only discovered it because they basically beat the shit out of him and threw him on the ground and you can even see them take it away from him and then they start shooting him with his hands on the ground like well they were well they well they sprayed him and they beat him with it um there was even a minnesota like uh i don't remember the name of the organization but like they were like uh looking at the footage he didn't do anything wrong so it is very very strange to me to be like i'm glad that nra and gun groups stood up because generally i don't really believe in those rights, but like that is the law of the land. So like you can't have Kyle Rittenhouse on one side with an AR-15 crossing state lines, which is a crime, and then murdering two people. And you're like, good on him. And we're going to make him like a right wing star, which is essentially what they've done. And this guy who doesn't even pull his gun out, well, he deserved it because he was going to a protest to incite violence. So the crazy thing is, yeah, go ahead. The crazy thing is if they look back like six months or more like a year now, there was a protest in April where a piece of shit in Ohio got the shit beat out of him because he was yelling at some like he was grabbing female protesters and a guy came over and headbutted the fuck out of him and he ran back to his truck and got his AR-15 out and came running through the crowd and the cops arrested him and then let him go. If we were in the same spot, they should have blasted his dumb ass because that would be the same. That would be equivalent. But they don't want to talk about that. It's actually worse, right? It's worse. like yeah because there would have been more i'm not saying it would have been justified but like you know brandish depending on where you are brandishing an ar-15 can be a threatening action compared to this dude who's just had it in the back in a holster in the like back of his pants right he never touched how can you get beat in the face and you don't touch your weapon i mean that guy had restraint that anyway well i think i think a lot of stories about that yeah no kidding But no, I think but it's crazy when the NRA and civil rights lawyers agree on something, you know that there's a real issue here. Well, and then like kind of what I was saying before, it's so short sighted, right? Because there's going to be a Democratic president again. And there's definitely going to be. We hope so. I mean, I think so. We hope we still have free and fair elections and that, you know, they're trying to use this to, I think, like incite. Yeah. You know, I've talked a lot about Trump's desire to kind of use the Insurrection Act in order to do all sorts of things. And so, like, it almost feels as though J.D. Vance saying they have absolute immunity. You you know, he he didn't think like this is someone who's Yale law educated. He doesn't truly believe in his heart of hearts that that they have absolute immunity, but he wants them to hear him say that because he wants them to go into the streets and act with impunity because they're like, but J.D. told me I have absolute immunity because they are dumb and they are, you know, they're these like hyped up kind of wannabe bullies, whatever they and they're going to go out and do these things, believing they have this immunity, which they don't have. And then it's going to give Trump the ability to say, OK, now I'm going to invoke the Insurrection Act. I'm going to, you know, we can't possibly how are we going to possibly have elections if this is the situation, if there's actual civil war going on in this country? Right. You know, well, did you see the video that came out yesterday of a I think it was a woman was recording an ice officer in his car and he said something? I'm going to maybe one of you guys will get it better than me. But like, I think he was like, you raise your voice. I'm going to erase your voice. Right. Right to an American citizen. I'm going to erase your voice. It's like the guy two weeks ago after Renee Good who went up to someone filming and said, didn't you guys learn from the other day? Like these guys, like I see a lot of people calling them Call of Duty cosplay cowboys, but I don't think that's wrong. like they have they have recruited they've lowered their recruiting guidelines right like these guys can't even like run what luke what was the the mile was like or mile and a half was like 15 minutes which or 17 which you could basically walk if you really walked fast enough you could do that and they've lacked relaxed all those and they've got these maga cowboys signing up for their 50 thousand dollar bonus which they're not going to get and uh because the next president i am saying will be a democrat and they're going to go nope in that last year and they're going to lose all of it um but it just seems so short-sighted to me that they're playing this game because it's gonna flip and they're gonna lose their minds like i i and they'll never they'll pretend like this never happened right like it's just like what no this is different like it's just it's just wild to me um yeah it's it's hopefully there will be repercussions you know both politically and legally for everyone who has participated in this in any way you know i really fucking prosecute i tell you what i i think we all agree here but i say it i not supporting anybody that says like you know that takes the like uh gerald ford position of like you know moving on from crimes I am not going to move on from this Like, I don't think that the base of the party and the left and the center of the party are going to just go, oh, let's just move on and go back. Like, I am not interested in that at all. We're not going back to brunch. Donald Trump had made a career, an entire life of being like persecuted as the victim. And so he had his he had his grievance response dialed in the witch hunt stuff like he's very good at being the victim all of the time, despite being like a billionaire Nepo baby who's now, you know, a crypto billionaire Nepo baby. um i don't think anyone else like so many things with trump i don't think anyone else can pull that off the same way you know if jd vance or or like who's like marco rubio if they try to do the whole the whole victim thing um as we are seeking justice where they where they just call everything a witch hunt i just don't think it's going to land like we've they cried wolf they they played that card already so many times and trump got away with it but i don't think the rest of these people will. I think that when we come after them with the Justice Department, I think people expect conviction. And I mean that like conviction behind the movement, but also actual convictions. And I don't think that we will have that loud voice of like, well, now is the time for healing. And, you know, we've had enough divisiveness. Like, no, you guys gave us the divisiveness. And I think more importantly, it's only been in the last year that I've heard people say things like, this is happening because we never sufficiently punished the south like i think we understand that when we don't tie it off um those people they just come back in a different way that's why the kkk exists because we never punished the south like we we never really punished the south um we need to learn that lesson and let it stick and actually and actually tie this shit off so these people don't keep coming back and saying look i was like vindicated i mean i think it's kind of like what what folks say like a kind of analogy is you don't heal a wound just by covering it up right you have to clean it out first there's some debridement that needs to go on exactly exactly exactly exactly right what would that yeah well i think it was i think it was our our our well i think it was our friend uh elizabeth booker that said stop calling these guys nazis and start calling them confederates because actually the nazis learned a lot from the confederate uh approach to uh guerrilla warfare and cruelty and all these things and it fits you know i think we there i mean the civil war wasn't that long ago when you really think about it i mean we all less than 100 years before world war ii at least rich and i at least were i mean there were uh civil war uh widows in our lifetime like big age differences and stuff like it's not that long ago well yes yes i probably yes thank you rich for it wasn't me this time tim is all joke well no i mean i think that's kind of mind-blowing like i know the dates roughly civil war was like 1865 was it six right 1861 to 65 world war ii you know i mean the nazis started their shit in like really the teens to the 20s but really in earnest in the 30s right um and certainly hitler in the in like i think yes 20s and 30s so i think he was 31 this is a hot 30 years after the civil war they're like let's do that and it wasn't just the tactics but it was also the the systematic dehumanization of an entire group of people that then created the opportunity to expel them and and treat them like animals and and just i mean commit genocide um and have nobody internally really care as long as they weren't subject to it. And now here we are less than, you know, 100 years after that. And there's another, then there's more people. I mean, like, first they came for the immigrants and I spoke up because I read the rest of the fucking poem. Fuck, that's good. God damn it. That's so fucking good. That's the most Luke comment ever. On that note, I want to... We're going to have to cut that clip and post it. That's perfect. So I think a lot of people are seeing these things and they're scared, as they should be. I understand that these are scary things. Can you just talk a little bit? I know it's a little different state by state. But, you know, if you find yourself in a situation where you're seeing something like this unfolding in your neighborhood, what are people's rights related to recording or observing so that people can know where the line is and not to cross it? Yeah. Well, first of all, I think what you just said about there being a lot of fear right now is completely accurate. There is so much fear and fear is understandable. But I think fear is also what makes people vulnerable to giving up their rights. And I think knowledge is power. And you don't need a lawyer to protect yourself. You just need to know a few things and a few rules and you need to stick to them. And so I think that, you know, there's a huge gap between what people think ICE can do and what the law actually allows. And so, you know, that's why I talk so much about about knowing your rights on my platforms. Like, I want people to understand that they have the right to remain silent. They have the right not to answer questions about their citizenship status, where they were born, where they're going, who they live with. You know, if you are being questioned, you can just say, I'm exercising my right to remain silent. I would like to speak to a lawyer. Silence is not suspicious. It is legal. And everyone there's a reason why we have a Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, but you have to use it. And then, you know, in terms of what we're seeing a lot online is this situation around the warrants. So basically, this secret ICE memo was leaked to Senator Blumenthal, which basically was directing ICE to enter homes with these administrative warrants without judicial warrants. And that is not legal. So if a warrant is not signed by a judge, it is not a valid warrant. You should not open your door. Don't let anyone into your home. Don't consent to searches of your home, your car, your phone, your bag, yourself. Just say, I do not consent to a search. Don't explain. I mean, you know, even if you're held, you do have the right to an attorney, say, I would like to speak to an attorney. I will not speak to you without an attorney, you know, all of that. And then, of course, you know, as you were saying, you have the right to film law enforcement. You have the right to film in public. You know, they can't actually you can't obstruct. So, yes, there is this this thing that people think, oh, well, am I obstructing? No, if you're standing a few feet away and you are filming, even if they don't like it, you are not obstructing. So you can always film. That is your First Amendment right. I think like, you know, this is something that everybody should know. Everyone should share with their friends and family members because this is how we fight back. Knowing your rights makes you more calm in these situations. And it also makes you harder to abuse. If you're standing on the sidewalk and you're filming and they're coming through or you're both in a public space and you become in their way, do you have to legally move? I mean, I would move personally, but are you legally required to move or they call that obstruction because you're in their way now, even if they charted a path directly through your chest? i mean listen the the law is that the limitation is you can't obstruct or interfere with agents performing their lawful duties which means keeping a reasonable get out of their way and not stepping into their physical space so you know i mean i think if they start stepping into your space obviously they're the ones doing it you're not the one who's obstructing but you should still probably step back just because we've now seen that they are executing people for right so like the risks are obviously um yeah are very high here because we've seen how trigger happy they are so like i would say you know it is your first amendment right to film it is a very strong right you can record law enforcement officers conducting their duties in public like you have an absolute right to do so but it does come with a caveat of not interfering so you know you have to stay safe keep a safe distance don't like physically i was going to point out uh if you've got an iphone you can optically zoom within four times yeah you could be pretty fucking far away and still be able to see a lot yeah you don't have to be right up on Well, and I think we've seen the videos like Alex Preddy was not impeding in any investigation whatsoever. They went out to him. Well, he was trying to help somebody else who was getting pepper spray, and then they pulled him off of her so they could beat him and shoot him. A woman beat the shit out of him and kill him. Eliza, one of a sort of related follow-up question. I know there's a lot of nuance in immigration law and with these administrative warrants and judicial warrants. But I'm thinking about Liam Ramos and his situation. So just to recap, so I have the facts straight. He his his dad drove him home from I believe it was daycare in the driveway of their of their house. I think not on the street in their driveway. He the dad was pulled out of the vehicle. The son was Liam was in the vehicle. the ICE agents, they say that they walked him up to the door to see if his mother would take custody of him. They said that they assured her that they wouldn't detain her if she came out and took custody of Liam, which whether you trust that or not. So that's one question is, can they lie legally? And then the other question is, she didn't come out because her husband was screaming from the street, don't open the door, don't open the door, don't open the door. So his pregnant wife is watching through the window with the door shut. There's other adults in the house, they're on their own property, and she didn't open the door and take Liam in or come out to take custody of Liam and bring him back in because she obviously didn't trust, neither of them trusted the scenario so what if you can answer what could they have done that would have been legal like can ice lie and and then detain her anyway or could she have come out and taken her son and brought him back in um if if we had all known you know if the people on site had known known their exact rights so this is a great question because i i talk a lot about the fact that the police can legally lie to you and that court cases have affirmed that, that there is almost no limit to the amount that the cops can lie to you in the course of an interrogation or an investigation or questioning a suspect. So, for example, you're in custody, you're suspected of a crime. They tell you, well, we have your fingerprints. We just got the weapon back and your fingerprints are on them. Or your co-conspirator, your buddy who you were arrested with already confessed and placed you there, too. They can say, oh, your dying mother said that she just wants you to admit that. I mean, they can basically say almost anything to try to get you to confess to a crime. OK, so I want to say that up front, because the fact that we know that the cops can lie to you makes it seem like, OK, so so then did I do anything wrong? Did they did they do anything wrong by lying to try to get into the home without a warrant? that is not legal. They cannot lie to get into your home without a warrant. They can't use deceptive practices. You know, consent has to be voluntary. It has to be informed and it has to be not based in deception about legal authority. So they also can't use deception to coerce a parent through a child. So using a child as leverage or bait, I think quite clearly is, you know, coercive and a due process violation. And also in Liam's case, I just want to be clear because people say, well, his parents shouldn't have come here illegally. There was no illegality. This is it is always legal to seek asylum. They were asylum seekers. They had an active case going on. There was no deportation order. There was no emergency. There was another caregiver available. Like it is so egregious what they did in Liam's case, this five year old with his little Spider Man backpack I mean I was like crying over I just it unbelievable how how just despicable they are and you know how they just this abuse of power Immigration enforcement does not overwhelm you know our constitutional protections like this is just unethical and unlawful And it's ridiculous. And I think to add to the to the absolute cruelty of this, they then sent them to Texas. Yeah. From Minnesota, this five year old in a vehicle and his father. I think it was in the vehicle. I think it was an 18-hour drive. 18-hour drive, yeah. Yep. Like, imagine if you have or had a kid that is under 10 and, you know, sticking them in a car like that or a van or whatever. It's just the cruelty. And it's the stuff that, I mean, I have a son roughly that age. And, you know, people listening, just close your eyes and think about it for a second. Think about it if it was your kid. What would you do? These people didn't do anything wrong. They did everything right. And it's like, and for what? what what what are we what is the problem that we are solving here and the answer is they keep saying oh you got they got to come here the right way they did they did they were the right way there and there there was another case of a guy too who had been checking in with his immigration officer he'd been meeting everything and they just fucking took him um there is no right way according to steven miller i mean he's he's the guy i think behind every single thing and And if Bovino's gone or demoted or reassigned, how fast can we get Stephen Miller out of the federal government? I feel like that would be 80 percent of all of our problems at this point, because it's all coming from his desired vision for this country that is that doesn't include about half of our federal laws and half of our constitution. Right. Yes. I mean, I think that I don't think you can impeach a special assistant to the to the president. So I don't think we can go down that road. But who, again, like the Democrats can run on investigating these guys. If we take back the House in November, we will have the Oversight Committee, which also gives us the opportunity to issue subpoenas. Now, they're going to ignore them, which they have. They did during the Biden administration when the when the House. But there can be criminal investigations when well, they could do it with the House. And then if we have the presidency in 28, then you can get that attorney general to launch, you know, probably appoint a special prosecutor or investigator. But like it has to happen. Like not even fucking say that. Not him. Do not put a judge in the charge of the of the the AG's office. I'm sorry. I mean, I don't hate that. I also like Doug Jones, the guy who actually prosecuted the KKK in Alabama. But he's running for governor. I do hope he wins, but that is going to be tough. But, you know, I think, again, we get back to this, like, we have to make them pay for this. Like, I mean, at the end of the day, and that's why, like, November is so important. And even, I mean, there is an opportunity to get the Senate, too, especially with all this shit going on. I mean, Susan Collins cannot be happy in Maine. She's pretty concerned last night. She cannot. Oh, yeah. I'm very concerned. I kid you not. she sent a letter to christy noem asking her to pause or uh she used other soft language like uh dial down ice in in maine i tell you what janet mills and greg grand platter have just been having a field day especially janet got the governor janet mills because she stood up to him once before on the trans issues and she was like i'll see you in court she beat him so like the i it just seems like he's sealing uh he's sealing her fate and also like in alaska like where uh mary uh i'm not gonna be able to say her last name patola is running like alaskans don't want their second amendment rights infringed like all of this stuff just is putting more i think more seats at play here yeah because i have a friend who's moving to alaska to to work on mary's campaign like this oh that's great i know i know they like really feel good about it and i think like what tim what you say is so important because i think there's a lot of hopelessness and and pessimism right now, but it is huge. We've got 10 months and we have to take back the house. We need that subpoena power. We need those hearings. We need those documents. We need sworn testimony from these DHS and ICE officials. You know, oversight is not just like some high, oh, just some random luxury. Oh, whatever. It doesn't mean anything. No, it actually means there's a power to investigate And then that can be used and for future accountability. So we think that matters so much. November elections matter so much. And I would encourage everyone listening to get involved locally or nationally, you know, find a race that matters to you and just just take it on and decide that you're going to be part of that and spread the word because this is, you know, it's crucial. Well, and also the you don't have to run for national office to make a difference either. Like local elections, there's a there's an effect of, you know, if you're a local, you run for local city council or somebody. And let's say, like, you have somebody who's kind of a casual voter. Then you're like on the ballot and they are like lean like damn like and you're like, well, I'm running. He goes, I'll vote for you. Then you better believe he's going to check all the other D boxes after everything's going on. So it really matters. That's why we talk about run for something so much. If you're interested in running for office, you should go to run for something dot net. Amanda Lippman. I'm on a panel with Amanda. Oh, great. In a couple of weeks. Yeah, she's great. And they're great. And please donate to them. They need all the money we can give them. But, you know, I agree. And the other thing that's important about this is if we have control of the House and Senate in 26, they can hand over those documents to the theoretical next Democratic administration. so we're not starting from scratch right and we all know that the merrick garland stuff took way way too long and there's no time for that this time like they have to move and they have to move quickly um well we have only a couple of minutes left uh and then we have to bounce but i i can't let you leave eliza without telling us how on earth you ended up on survivor okay so for something for a lighter topic. Yes. So so I, along with I don't know, 30 million other Americans watched episode one of season one of Survivor. I was in high school at the time and I watched with my family and I turned to my mom and I was like, I'm going to be on that show one day. And like any, you know, good Jewish mother, she was like, of course you are, sweetheart. You can do anything. Now she says, be careful what you tell your kids because they believe you. um and so as soon as I turned 21 I sent an audition video I got flown out to Los Angeles interviewed with you know with executive producers then with Les Moonves with like the head of CBS and yeah and then they cast me my first time applying so I was 21 years old I got cast you know pretty pretty early on and and then did quite well and so then a few years later when I was in law school and they called me and said hey you want to you want to have another go at this and i was like another one in 20 shot at a million bucks yes please and so i went back on a second season called fans versus favorites and i was a favorite oh you were a favorite i was a favorite and um you know even though that did not turn out so i'm like you know multi-time loser i still had you know arguably one of the most memorable scenes in the history of survivors so you know my my my legacy lives on even though i i never won do people still recognize you on the street crazy enough yes and i would i don't know if it's like still or again because like there was a moment there where it kind of like dipped yeah but then during covid it felt like all of a sudden everyone was trapped in their homes and and all these people started catching up from the beginning and watching i have kids come up to me and they're like oh my god i'm a huge fan of yours i'm like you weren't alive when I was on the show. What do you mean? And they're like, no, but I watched all the seasons. I love you. And I love to see. And it's so fun now because people will watch the show and obviously see me from decades ago and then find my social media and see what I'm like now. And they're like, oh, my God, I'm so glad that you're like on the right side of history. Blah, blah, blah. There's a hilarious tweet out there that somebody was like, basically the opposite of don't meet your heroes because they're like, I thought Eliza was kind of annoying on the show. But now I look her up and she's like on the right side of every issue. And I love her. And so I'll take it. Well, we don't think you're annoying. So that's good. And you are on the right side of history. So we've got to wrap. But where can people find you? Where do you want people to follow you? So I am everywhere. You can find me on Instagram, E Orleans, TikTok for as long as that lasts at Eliza Orleans. My YouTube channel is at Eliza dot Orleans. I'm on Substack. the sub stack i write is called objection everything um i am on blue sky on threads on i'm literally everywhere so i and i use my full government name everywhere eliza orleans so you should be able to find me great well everybody go i mean do we have 45 seconds do you have okay sure um then you gotta use it now we need to set this up a little bit um because this is an important question uh regular or double stuffed oreos eliza oh that's a good question this this is this is recurring oh my gosh that's that is a that's a tough question um i haven't had an oreo in so long i don't know how you've gotten through a year without any oreos wait wait this year don't don't tip it don't tip it there is a wrong answer yeah tim tim knows it because it's his. You're really so disappointed. You know, it's funny. No, it's not. I don't even, I couldn't even tell you the last time I had a double-stuffed Oreo. Like, I don't even know that I've ever had a double-stuffed, like, I feel like a regular, like, why did you mess with perfection? Thank you. What kind of a fucking sociopath was twice as much Crisco in the goddamn Oreo? People who like the Crisco. The best part of it. I mean, I like it too. Like, you twist it open and you're like, right, you know, but... You separate it? right oh yeah oh no yeah i separate you gotta eat the whole thing in the milk milk's favorite cookie that's the whole point but like dairy milk ew oh yeah whole milk right are you a republican or something i mean i'm in a red state drinks dairy milk two gallons a week with double stuffed oreos i know i don't know my bones are strong have you know yeah caroline levitt and the uh aren't they didn't they do a whole campaign like they're doing they fucked up her photoshop oh no that was that was riley gains they they they edited her and then it was fucked in a couple frames that it was like everyone's favorite that's the original thing finisher yeah yeah that's a whole they're like make whole milk great again it's like it never went away you could always i would i wouldn't drink it we don't i drink whole milk i don't drink it but they think that whole milk is raw milk i'm a soy i'm a soy Oh, I know you're a soy guy, Tim. Oh, I shouldn't have even said that. Soy boy. Yeah. At one point, I think it was, Rich, it was your idea, because your idea was also called Find Out, I think, was to call us the Soy Boys, but that wasn't going to really, kind of ironically or adjust, but I think we made the right choice. That was my podcast. Yeah, I got a podcast again. I haven't been called that in a long time, to be honest. I get it once a day, at least. Well, you want Soy Boy? Soy Boy. yeah and you're like i drink whole milk that is that why i drink whole milk exactly trying to man up well i've got enough calcium in my bones i think that was more than 45 seconds rich but and we got the correct answer it's good well sorry my answer took too long but i just had to think about it you're an attorney you have to think about the answer before you say it right so well everyone who's who anyone all three of you that are still listening um if you want to tell us if you're a double stuff or single stuff you can put it in the comments and you know hopefully we'll ask on the live tonight too tim oh we'll do it yeah we're doing oh well actually won't this will be out after that but every wednesday we do a live show at 8 45 on youtube facebook we're gonna actually put it on sub stack tonight we'll see what happens but um oh yeah very very risky stuff um but anyways can you can you do all to do you use obs do you do all to all of them oh wow yeah we use a thing called restream uh which now they should give it to me for free because I just said it. But yeah, it just connects. You hit a bunch of buttons and it connects the accounts and you just go. Because you'll, and actually so people don't know, I always like the last few weeks I've asked Eliza to come on the lives like literally like an hour before because I'm like, I'm really good at the guest management stuff if you couldn't tell. And like, do you want to come on in an hour? She's like, well, I have plans or I'm out of time. It's like fair. So I actually asked you yesterday. So I gave you like 12 hours of heads up instead of one. So I'm getting better. But it was Eliza Orleans. Thank you very much. Everybody go follow or wherever. Buy our merch. I'm not going to do our whole thing, but I do have a DOG one on today. So you can go buy that at findoutpodcast.com, Union Made in America, and get a membership on our sub stack at findoutpodcast.substack.com. And with that, everybody have a lovely weekend, hopefully snow-free this time, and we'll be back next week. Take care, everybody.