The DILEMMA: Mid-Majors & The Transfer Portal

This is an I heart podcast guaranteed human. Okay, Darren, it is transfer portal chaos in full effect right now. Yes, after March madness. And we also got to crown a champion here in the 2526 season, the Michigan Wolverines, Dusty May does a fantastic job. And how about the firm and paladins though, because now we can say that the past two NCAA tournament experiences for the firm and paladins, they lost to the runner up in the national championship game, obviously losing to you con this past tournament and then going back to that magical run where they upset Virginia would ultimately lose in the second round to San Diego State. So there we go. So con don't sleep on some of these major programs. Hey, you know, so what a wonderful experience though but I want to dive into more about that experience because you were there in Indy boots on the ground. Let me know how it was just from terms of the experience you've got the coaches convention going on and I remember back in the day where we didn't have all of this access in terms of text messaging and you know being able to follow people via social media and all of that and man I would camp out at the hotels all member of the all lobby team I can promise you man trying to do whatever you could. Yes, that's right. The lobby of the host hotel. Yes, give us the scoop. What was the experience like in Indy and I'm disappointed I wasn't there this year. Hey, we'll get you there. We'll get you there next year. Hey, we'll do we're going to do so con fast break live from the final four next year. We are. Yes, get ready for that people. Yes, we're going to be there. I'm going to be here. Yes, I'm going to be here. Ironically, my first final four back in 2008 when I was trying to get my first couch coaching job was in Detroit. So it is I will tell you for me, it kind of comes full circle next year. Go back to Detroit because I don't think I don't think I've missed a final four since 2008. If I have it's maybe been one or two, but I genuinely don't think I've missed a final four since away. It's a look, you know, you asked me kind of to share the experience. It's it's not it's something that every basketball fan, every sports fan should experience once in their lifetime, even if you don't go to the games because it is one of the most unique weekends of the year. And N.A.B.C. Please do not ruin it by moving the convention away from final four. We agreed. Rumors. There were some rumors floating around. They may move the N.A.B.C. convention to a different weekend or different week because this the final four in the N.A.B.C. are the only only major sporting group for lack of better term in the country. It does their convention around a major weekend like the final four. But I think it's one of the things that makes this makes this so special because you have access to coaches, you have access to business professionals in the space, you have access. You name it. If it's involved with college basketball, you have the opportunity to have unique access to that entity or those individuals or that group. And it's an incredible opportunity to gather with your friends that you don't see a ton in the coaching business or, you know, just in the sports business sports business industry that you know you get to visit with. There are incredible parties. It's great networking. It's a great educational aspect of it. There is a great educational aspect of it, which we'll go into in a minute. Some of my takeaways from being down there up there. It is an incredible weekend. And oh, by the way, there's three incredible games that get played. And if you have the opportunity to go to those as well, you 100% should. I know there's a lot of talk. It's in a football stadium. The viewing experience is not as good. I don't know. It takes away from it a little bit, but the pageantry is so special that you can forget about that because when you really sit there in the moment and you look around and you're just like, wow, this is special. Yeah. And it was extra special for me this year. I had two very close friends and former colleagues coaching in the final four. Justin games the head athletic trainer at the University of Illinois now does a phenomenal job. They had an incredible year and Matt Aldred, national champion. That's right, baby. Go coach Matt. And strength conditioning coach for the blue at Michigan. And so congratulations to him, but it was really special being able to see those guys compete at the highest level. But it's an incredible experience that everyone needs to experience once in a while. Yeah. Now, when you were coaching, did you attend the games when you were a coach or did you sell your tickets? Well, so it was it depended on the year. Well, no, I thought to be fair, I never sold my tickets where I would gotten in trouble. And to be honest with you, they've gotten to a point over the last handful of years like you can't. That's right. It's insane. So because back in the day, yeah, like, especially when you had those physical tickets, like you could move and shake with them. I usually would go Saturday. There were a couple of years when I was coaching that I didn't necessarily go Saturday, but I would usually go Saturday just because like, I always try to operate the final four like this. It is a business trip for me from Wednesday or Thursday, whichever day I get there till like Saturday at one o'clock. And about Saturday at one o'clock, I really try to shut it down and just be a fan for the rest of the day. Because look, we are incredibly grateful and incredibly privileged to be able to work in this space and coach in this space, etc, etc. But I have to say, like when you're in it in it, it does at times take some of the fun out of being a fan. No doubt. Because you were just so entrenched in it. So I really always appreciated trying to just step back on Saturday afternoon and say, I want to be a college basketball fan for a couple hours. And so I liked to go, but there were certainly years where I would just go hang out with some friends at a bar and shoot that, you know what, and watch the games. But I do like to go. I was fortunate if we flew back Saturday night because of Easter for our girls, but we were able to go for a little bit on Saturday night. And so we did go as to as much as we could this year. Yeah, I tell you, I loved the aspect of just all of the coaches together and it was that fraternity type of feel. But then what you talked about the education side, man, I loved going to the N.A.B.C. with all of the different breakouts that they had. And just hearing from other coaches, you know, things that they were doing. And of course, just the networking. I mean, I love that. But also I agree with you. I think even the head coaches and especially if somebody had an opening on their staff, they were almost tired of everybody coming up to them. And again, the lobbying for an opportunity, you know, to be part of their team, so to speak, part of their staff. And so there is that aspect. And so I think that's during the week, you have all of that going on. But then can you just decompress and enjoy it as a fan because it is a special opportunity of the final four, everything. It's the culmination of the season, you know, all of that. But give me some insight, though, in terms of, I mean, there's a lot of change. I think that is coming. And obviously we know right now when we're talking about change, transfer portal. I mean, it is crazy the numbers that we're seeing right now. But I say crazy, but isn't this what we expected? I mean, because right now there's still just not enough guardrails around everything in terms of even eligibility and grad transfers. There's so much going into it. But I think there's more to be coming in terms of, you know, the chaos that we're seeing with the transfer portal. But there's a lot of talk about the NCAA tournament expansion. And I think there's some validity. And we talked about it before, Darren. I think this is something that's going to happen, but I want to get some inside scoop what you were hearing there in Indy. Yeah. So, you know, they're, gosh, I mean, the amount of takeaways I had, we could probably have a whole podcast by itself. But, you know, all jokes aside, I think the three kind of key takeaways that I pulled and we can get into the weeds of each of them as you see fit. But the portal numbers, they're crazy. And the dollar amounts that are being asked are crazy. Okay. Yeah. So, okay, before we go on, because I'm wondering from your standpoint, and that's what I think a theme right now is yet the numbers are crazy just in terms of the quantity of players that are in the portal. And you could even say the quality also. I mean, there's definitely an aspect of that. But I think it's something we almost expected that we were going to have large numbers. But what I think is throwing everybody off right now, it's the numbers associated with the dollar figures. And what some of these agents, what some of these players are trying to demand in the portal and how that's going to have a huge impact, a domino effect, and especially as it trickles down to the mid major level, obviously here in the Southern Conference. Absolutely. And I mean, to kind of attack it, that question in a couple of different ways, credit to Field of 68 here, they pulled at least 10 plus high major assistants, high major head coach, GM's, etc. You may have already seen this. I did. The average for wings right now is two and a half to two and a half to three million point guards, three to four, and big men four to five. So those numbers, like those numbers look, again, we'll get into the weeds as we need to because this thing could go in so many different directions right now. I am all four guys making money. Yes. And look, like I do think there's there's a lot of negativity talked about it. I think these guys being able to, to profit and to make a salary because it is a salary, but all jokes aside, but to make this money, it's great. But we have to be able to set some, some, some, you know, like, we have to have a better idea of what real numbers are in the market is getting set just higher and higher to the point where even these major programs that are these, these blue blood programs or these high major programs to have a ton of money, like it's some point, there's only so much revenue that can be generated. That's right. Well, that's where you're at. Yeah. So my question is, I know, and I hear in the same narratives out there, just in terms of we need to be able to set, you know, these markets and the base value of some of these players. Well, we're in a capitalistic society. I mean, you know, capitalism at its best. And so the market is set by what the market will demand and what the market will pay. And so my point is coming back to, well, okay, if you want to stop this inflation, so to speak, in terms of how high these numbers are getting, well, coaches, athletic departments, A.D.'s stop paying the money. Don't, don't artificially set the parameters. Now, I know that's easier said than done and I'm making it, I'm being overly dramatic here. But the point is, is that we're at such a point that all of these programs are in a major dilemma because it's when it all costs. And we know right now there's going to be somebody else that will say, well, we'll pay it and then you're going to lose out on some of these players. So I think you bring up a key point right there. And that is some of these coaches setting the market. I'm not going to go into all the specifics, but I'll say this. I heard about a kid who didn't necessarily have great numbers. Let's just say somebody was willing to pay him a significant six-figure number to go elsewhere. And it's just like, guys, I don't respect like those numbers are just not good enough to justify this number. And I think that's just on what I say that to say is like, you're doing it yourselves a little bit because now somebody can find out about that and say, here's these stats that this kid had and he got X. So guess what? I was a couple of points higher and I shot it a little bit better or I had a little bit better of an assisted turnover ratio. So I need more money. Well, now we've set the market and it's, those are unrealistic numbers. And when you look at, sure, do you guys get overpaid in the NBA? 100%. Of course. But guess what? We have to a degree in the NBA. Like there is a bar where with the salary cap and the way it works out, like you're just not going to pay X. Nobody is for a certain caliber player. And so that bar has to be set here in his coaches. I know you have to fill roster spots, but we have to be strategic here and understand like we can't just be going out and throwing money around because that has a detrimental impact on the rest of college basketball. Oh, it does. And I'm not saying everybody's doing that. And look, I mean, gosh, we're, I mean, we're, there's so many directions we can go here. Like this is impacting everybody now. This is not just impacting mid majors. This isn't just impacting like high major programs that don't have, you know, historically great programs. Every single program in the country is dealing with mass exodus into the portal. And one of the other things that I think is important to add here, Richmond, is that a couple of years ago, if a kid entered the portal, generally speaking, it was kind of like the coaching staff was like, man, good riddance. Like if you do that, there's a point of no return there. Like we want you, we've made it clear. That's right. If you do that, forget it, right? You're not coming back. Now we're in a scenario where really I don't, I don't care who you are as a head coach. Like the kid might tell you, look, I'm an end of the portal. If you want me that bad, you're just going to have to negotiate based on what I'm pulling from the portal. And I think most coaches in the country at this point have had to come to the realization and come to the grips that like we're going to have to operate in that under the current, you know, guidelines are under the current. Because my guys know that if they're any good, they're going to enter the portal, but they also know that under a lot of circumstances, if I'm their coach, I want them back. But I want them back at X. And if they don't have the portal, they're not going to be able to increase that number. So it's this like almost like free agency period where they can kind of go see what numbers they can get to increase what I'll pay that kid. And then now I might have been able to get that kid for, you know, we're just, we were speaking in generalities here, but maybe I could get that kid for 1.5. Well, guess what? I might have to pay him three now. That's right. I mean, and here's the thing too, like we're not talking about I won for one five and now I'm going to get him for one seven. We're talking significant increases in a lot of the delimit. That's right. And so, yeah, it's that trickle down effect. It's become really hard. Yeah, it really is. And so roster management is a big part. And that's why I continue to say that even now a metric that these coaches are looking at when they're evaluating job opportunities is how much money is going to be set aside for roster management. Oh, yeah. Revenue sharing and also just NIL because it's one thing to say, oh, yeah, it's $20.5 million, you know, that for revenue sharing. Well, teams are blowing through that. We do know that. But then it's what do they have to supplement that? And that's where all the NIL quote unquote NIL and these collectives come in. And look, this could change. So who knows at this age as well. But I think we have a pretty good idea at this point. I think it's going to take a minimum commitment. And look, you say it all the time, paper don't play. That's right. And look, and it doesn't. It doesn't. It's like having the money 100% matters here, right? But I think it's going to take between 14 to 16 million on paper to be able to assemble a national champion caliber competing roster next year. That's one of the things that I kind of gathered, you know, in Indy. And I think I think 14. It's a little, I mean, that's, you know, like that's that's probably the barrier. That seems so high though. That's 14 seems extremely high. It does. And look, I think if I think, can you, can you, does that is, does that the end all be all? It certainly isn't. It really isn't because, you know, look like Wogler from Illinois, like he wasn't making remotely close to what his value was. And he just blew up when he got there. So like you're going to have outliers and you're going to have outlined scenarios. But the gist of kind of what I gathered and what a lot of coaches and folks in the industry were talking about over the last couple weeks is that this is like around 14 to 16 is probably what you're going to have to spend to be. Yeah. Let's put it this way. Let's not say national championship good. Let's say to be able to compete consistently at a high level on paper to have, you know, the ability to go get that talent. I certainly think in this era, if you're, if you're trying to compete at a high major level and you've got under 10, you're, you're, you're going to have to be really, really good with your talent evaluation. Well, that's right. Yes. And I think that's the other caveat to this is that these guys, they're going to have to do coaching, I should say, in terms of bringing in staff that are really good at evaluating and being able to understand value versus talent. And how it fits within the roster, how it fits within their philosophy, their scheme, all of that. And I think that's going to be a big part. Now you're saying 14, 16 million. Yeah, that's high major. But what are we looking at for mid major? Let's break it down as we're, you know, how are you going to be competitive at a mid major level when you see, you know, can you be like a high point that gets a tournament when upsetting Wisconsin there. But we've heard the reports. And again, we don't know 100%, but I've heard, you know, upwards of three to four million dollars there at high point. So in the Southern Conference, what is it going to take to be competitive to try to win here in the Southern Conference? Is it one million, two million? I mean, you're going to have to have up to three million dollars to be competitive in the Southern Conference. And we know if that's the case, I mean, there's going to be a lot of schools that they just don't have the ability to do that. No, they don't. And I think over the next handful of years, we're going to start to see more and more schools kind of look themselves in the mirror and say, look, we have to reevaluate what our goals from an athletic department perspective are here. Like, are we competing in division one athletics because we want to win? Are we competing in division one athletics for the potential to increase enrollment and the national notoriety that potentially comes along with that? What are our goal? Are we doing it to increase enrollment? What are our goals with it? Because I think one of the other things I pulled, one of the three key kind of takeaways is that I think the gap between high majors, including like the blue bloods, I think the gap there has become the opportunity for more parity. Because there are programs that traditionally prior to NIL may not have had the history pageantry, you know, facilities, etc. to be able to elevate their program. But now with revenue sharing and the ability to potentially bring some big money folks in or some strategic partnerships, I think we've seen high major programs that maybe were not as nationally relevant, now able to be nationally relevant with some of these other, you know, big time programs. But the other piece of that, and this is the real concerning part of it, is I don't think the gap between high major and mid major and low major has ever been bigger. It's getting bigger and bigger. And I'm not going to sit here and get on my high horse and say, oh, the Cinderella's done. But what I will say is that I think it is going to be increasingly harder for lower seeds to win more than one game in a tournament because the talent gap is just getting too big because as a mid major program, you're not able to hang on to these highly talented guys for more than one year. Right. So in years past, you had mid major programs. I mean, just look at what we were fortunate enough to have with with J1 Slossin and Mike Bothwell coming back and frankly, some of the younger guys on that roster that would have been harder to keep in this era. Right. Like, you're not able to mid major program to have that player development over the long term where you can potentially have like, you know, an NBA caliber guy on your roster that you've dealt over three and four years. Can you get the right matchup and win a game? Certainly. But I think the days of seeing mid major double digit seeds get past the first weekend. It's going to be fewer and fewer far between because the talent gap just gets it's just getting that much bigger between the high major programs and everybody else. Oh, yeah. There's no question. And then it just trickles down. Then you can even look at, you know, the mid majors. And even within the conference, like the Southern Conference, you're going to start seeing separation between the top tier teams versus, you know, some of the teams that have struggled because of what you're talking about. And I think there's also this mentality, it seems, at the mid major level that even if you do have a player that is high major caliber type of talent, I mean, if you're going to be fortunate to keep them one year. And I'm also even wondering if part of the recruiting process, even at times is now the narrative as far as, hey, come here, you know, for one year, and I'll do everything I can to help you get a bigger deal down the road. And, you know, I think that just adds to even more of the revolving door that, hey, let's just get him in for a year. This is how we have to recruit and we'll do everything we can once they have a stellar season to get them a better deal somewhere else. Look, I think, I think you bring up a great point. And if I'm putting my coaching hat on, I'm sitting there as a mid major head coach. That's something I don't want to do because I want to build stability and I want to build program culture and I want to be able to retain and develop talent. But I'd be lying to myself if I would sit there and staff me and didn't bring that up with my assistant coaches in my staff and just say, look, like, I know this is what we want, but are we really going to be able to do that consistently? And frankly, I think we've even seen it at the high major level like freshmen don't win, you know, in the long run anymore, like you have to have some older dudes on your roster now. That's right. Don't get me wrong. There was some high, high level of freshmen playing deep into the tournament. But what I'm ultimately saying is that I think like a team full of five, five star freshmen like those days of they had balance, it's gonna be harder and harder to do. You have to be able to sprinkle in your roster. So digressing a little bit, but kind of getting back to your point of like, I think if you're a head coach at the mid major level, I think you absolutely have to at least consider that to some degree without selling your soul. Right. I'm not going to sell my soul for this, but like, I probably do have to realize, look, if I want to get good enough talent to be able to compete and maybe go win a game or two in the tournament, like, yeah, I might have to be willing to take a guy that like didn't pop at the high major level for whatever reason, bring him back down, reset and say, look, like, let's go into this knowing this is going to be a nine, 10 month thing and let's go frickin be the best we can be and no hard feelings. That's right. Yeah. There's no doubt that that's part of it. And, you know, just even looking at the Southern Conference here, there's no doubt that we're at a point now where I think we're going to see this consistently in terms of how you're looking at teams and as we getting to know some of the teams that we just got through with the next 20, 25, 26 season. Well, coming up in 26, it's going to be completely different teams. I think the number right now sitting at 69 players from the Southern Conference are in the transfer portal. And I mean, that is just astounding when you look at it. I mean, some of these teams are going to be completely different ravaged with. Yes. With new faces that they're going to have to go out there and get because they're losing. And yes, you can look at, you know, some of the stars like an Alex Wilkins, those type of players, you know, it's Justin Neely, you know, all of those type of guys that were all conference, Baraka coach, you've got Armani mighty, you know, all of those. But I think talking to some of these coaches, I think they knew going into it. Hey, let's get the most that we can out of these players and try to, you know, go as far as we can with them because we know it's probably going to be a one year deal for these players. It is, I think two, two quick responses that one one is that many guys. And this isn't this isn't a shot at any of these guys coming back. But like, you got 69 guys in the portal. I mean, how many there's there's a couple. I think I've seen. I think I've seen Darner and Brady Shoulders is maybe the two to two guys that that like played significant minutes last year that have decided to come back. I mean, basically every other impact player and I know I'm forgetting somebody so take it with a grain of salt. But like most of these impact players are on every single one of these rosters have decided to move on the Southern Conference. And as a gift and a curse like Southern Conference is good enough of a mid major league where like your your good to above average to really good players. Like they're good enough to play at a higher level. But the curse of that is is that you're going to continue to have to replace all these guys every year. And so it's a gift and a curse. But you know, the one other piece of this is like, again, kind of put my coaching hat on like, I love this game more than anything else. Like basketball has given me a lot. It's taught me a lot about life, about myself, etc. But one of the reasons and I'm sure you can speak to the same thing. One of the reasons I got in coaching was because I wanted to be a mentor. I wanted to help young men. I wanted to be somebody that could you could rely on to help teach you about life to help teach you about the game of basketball and be there for you to develop a lifelong bond in relationship. Right. Like those are some of the greatest memories I had as a player and as a coach. And so if I'm again putting my coaching hat on and I'm sitting here like is a mid major head coach. Yeah, I love everything. I love almost everything about it. And there are things that you can't get anywhere else in professional life that you can in coaching from a competitive perspective and from a relationship perspective and just being in the locker room. But like, do I want to subject myself and or my family if I if I have a family to this much longer? If you're not at a program that can compete at the highest level because like you're just going to be recycling new guys. That's right. Well, and I think there's some relationships for the most part. Yes. And so I want to hit on that topic relationships because again, we're hearing the narrative, especially that over just renting players and now coaches, they don't want to invest the time to get to know the players. And I think there is there is an advantage, so to speak, in terms of during the recruiting process. Now, you know, pretty quickly, if you're going to have an opportunity to be involved with a player or not versus years ago, it was slowly building that relationship slowly building that trust and investing a lot of time to develop that trust in that relationship. So you do have a reduction in how much time you're investing. But the cost of that is, of course, you don't develop that relationship. You don't develop that connection. But I do think the programs that will have the most success, of course, going to have access to funds to be able to put together a roster. But I think it's the coaches that will also still focus on that connection and focus on that relationship and view it as, you know what, even if it's for a year, I'm going to put everything into entrusting that player with my leadership because they're entrusting themselves to come to this program. And I think an example is like a Dusty May at Michigan. I mean, he talks about, hey, they're still focused on building that relationship. And again, even if it's for a short period of time, so because I think the connection part, I think that's part of the formula for success. 100%. I completely agree with you. And I, and I, with everything that I'm saying, I certainly don't want to insinuate that you cannot build a relationship. And that in the B relationships in this business are dead. They're not because I think you're exactly right. I think it's almost to a degree. I think you have to have a balance. But I think it's almost a time to like double down on relationships in your culture. No, yeah. Because there are a lot more guys now they're in this business that are just more willing to say, okay, like to a degree like, yeah, we'll make a transactional like, you know, you're kind of in it for a reason. I'm in it for a reason. Like let's we will be will be unselfish to an extent, but we're also going to both be selfish for our final pursuit. So I could easily make the argument that you have to embrace this, but you have to understand like, look, let's double down on our culture now. And let's double down on our relationship aspect here, because if you have those true leadership qualities, like a lot of these guys do, I think you can break through to that. And look, if you are at a high major program where you gen gen, excuse me, genuinely have the money, you might be able to break through and turn that what you might think was a nine month relationship into no, I love this guy. That's right. They can pay they can pay me and maybe I'll take a little bit of a haircut because this guy was here for me. I'm going to say this fully transactional. Yeah, no question. Look, there's a lot to be said for for the points you bring up with with that part. Yeah. Okay. So looking back at the Socon here again, basically 69 players have entered the portal and that could increase. That's just the numbers that we have as of right now. I mean, there are several teams that have eight players in the portal. But I mean, that again, just as you talked about just gutted ravage their roster, so to speak. And, you know, just even looking at how this is going to play out. One thing that I did want to also talk about just in terms of the Southern Conference is the intra conference transfer rule that the Southern Conference has right now. And that basically states that you cannot transfer to another Southern Conference school if you're an undergrad without sitting out a year. And that's the old rule that we knew if you transferred you had to sit out if you transferred from division one to division one schools. And so I'm looking at that rule right now and I get the premise and you know, I understand it, but I'm just wondering right now. Is it outdated? Is it archaic based on the parameters that we have right now? Now, again, I do understand if you're a grad transfer, you can transfer to another Southern Conference school without having to sit out a year. And it's the academic side because it's almost a reward. Okay, you earned your degree. So now you can transfer. I just don't understand why the Southern Conference wants to view that as such a positive aspect of being the only conference that has that rule right now. And that's where I'm struggling. So walk me off the ledge, Darren. I'm trying to understand why that is such a dilemma that the Southern Conference wants to stand on that pillar, so to speak, because I think it ultimately at the end of the day, it just removes the ability to keep some of the talent within the Southern Conference. And again, I know you don't want to poach your own schools. I get that. But at least keep the talent within the parameters of the Southern Conference footprint and within the league, so to speak. And I even just wonder from a perspective as far as could there be somebody that would actually try to test it and say from a legal standpoint, can you even do that anymore based on precedents that we're seeing right now? Yeah, you know, it's funny. I thought a little bit about the legal piece and the constraint on ability to freely operate in the marketplace for a better term. And I think, you know, without doing a ton of research on it, I mean, I think you could create an argument to potentially say that. I don't have a great answer for you as to why that rule still exists. You know, I kind of feel like I don't love, especially in the smaller mid-major leagues that are even more regional, like I don't love seeing guys bounce around to different schools in the league. But I say all that to say, I can't think of a reason, I mean, a legitimate reason in the landscape that we're in that we would still have that rule in the league. You know, part of me just wonders too, if it's just been there, they've got so much else going on that like, you know, it hasn't even, it just hasn't come to the forefront. But, you know, I think certainly one of the things you bring up is the academic piece and, you know, without going off on too much of a tangent to focus on the current kind of inter-conference transfer conversation. But like the academic piece of all this transfer stuff is not talked about enough and how much it really ultimately does impact these kids and their ability to graduate on time and their ability to potentially pass up on an elite or very high level education that will pay off for them with alumni relationships, etc., etc., down the road. But that's a different conversation for a different day. But I do think maybe there is a piece, I say that to kind of bring it back full circle, that I think there's potentially an academic piece. Oh, there's no doubt. There's the inter-conference rule. But I can't give you, I just can't really think of a good reason in 2026 in the landscape that we're in. Yeah, I just thought about this. It says, hey, like we have this rule. Yeah, I thought about this after seeing Honor Huff and what he did at West Virginia and there in the crown tournament there and being named the most outstanding player or MVP of that. And it just made me remember, so to speak, he did start at VMI and then transferred to Chattanooga when his head coach, Dan Earl, accepted the job at Chattanooga. And then Honor Huff sits out an entire year. And I just think back, man, that was pretty interesting that he did sit out the year. But Dan Earl didn't sit out a year. He didn't have to sit out a year when he went to Chattanooga. And so coaches can move freely. But the player can't unless you get that reward and you're a grad. And I almost think that's, you know, I don't know. I mean, just because you're a grad now all of a sudden you can, are we that tied to the academic side? Yes. And of course we should be because I think there's, to your point, there's a lot of value for getting your degree. And you know it's going to be harder to transfer these credits the more times you transfer schools. I totally get that. I just think it's in this day and age, try to keep as much talent as you can in the Southern Conference. That's my point. And based on where this is all going, I just think right now it's an archaic rule that they need to re-evaluate and how much value is it bringing. But also how much in terms of would we even see guys transferring within the conference because I think there's an aspect right now. To be honest with you, the Daren is that the guys transferring, they're typically because they're transferring to a higher level because they're going to a better league, at least a perceived better league. Right. They're moving up. And I think that's maybe one of the reasons that this hasn't even been addressed too much before. One thing I think playing devil's advocate though that is probably worth bringing up. You know this rule can help promote competitive balance, right? Because you know, look, I mean you've got a couple schools in the league that clearly have more money to spend than others. And so you know, could you make the argument to say we want to keep competitive balance here? Oh, that's right. That is definitely a fact. I mean, I think it's just about anybody in the league is going to be able to do for you. And that's generalizing since not everybody, but like most of these guys are leaving. They're leveling up. Yes. Oh, no doubt. All right. So I do have a question too, because I'm just curious your view on as much as we talk about, oh, it's the players, they're just trying to get money. They're trying to get to the next level, whatever that level might be. And I'm not just saying this is focused on mid majors. I'm just talking about in all of college basketball. Because the other side is, I think with this freedom of movement, it also does give coaches freedom of pushing out. And there might be players Darren that might not be fitting in their program as they thought. And so are there conversations going on that we don't know about that these coaches are also utilizing the portal as a way to make their roster better. And I'm saying that in a polite way. No, look, 100% I mean, these these were conversations that were happening. Even even before we had the flexibility of the portal, right? Like, I mean, what what I think is it's important to know prior to all this like a scholarship was a was not a four year deal. It was a one year renewable contract, right? So you would not necessarily have to honor that contract. You know, if the kid didn't fit the program, you know, so those conversations have been going on for years. If it's not a fit, but it certainly makes it easier. And yes, there are certainly those conversations going on now where it's just like, look, this didn't work here. Now, most coaches, everyone I've been associated with, if it's not the right fit, there is 100% of commitment to help that kid find that young man. The agreed. That's right. It's not a hey, we don't want you go away. Yes. And that probably came across the wrong way when I said it that way. But I wholeheartedly agree. This is, but it is an opportunity for them. 100% and it's easier now. Yes, it is easier. There's no doubt. And I mean, at the end of the day, we also know that's part of what you do as a staff is that you're trying to over recruit. So if you have a talented point guard, hey, even at the high school ranks, you're going out and trying to recruit a player that's going to be better than that's on your roster. That's just the reality of it. You're trying to get the best talent possible. Absolutely. Look, I mean, shoot, like I got recruited over. I get it. It's stuck at the time. Nobody recruits over Darren Angel. Come on now. No, no, I wouldn't. I could shoot that thing. That's about it. I didn't have much lateral quickness now. I tried, brother. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. There's been multiple reasons. It goes back to one of the reasons why we all got into the business to begin with. To help people. So that's just been part of it. It's very ... It's a whole lot easier now to kind of quote unquote reset your roster and have roster flexibility today than even four or five years ago. Well I'm just saying it right now. With everything happening with the portal and the trickle down effects so to speak. It's going to be harder and harder for these mid-major programs major programs because I do think that gap is getting bigger as you're describing. And we've got a lot more to talk about. I mean, the transfer portal, what another 12 days that it's still open. So we'll see how that's going to impact the Southern Conference. Again, 69 players in the portal as of right now. And I mean, I'm talking quality players. Oh yeah. Oh, everybody from the also con three different teams, they're gone based either on they've exhausted their eligibility or they're in the portal. So, I mean, we're going to see completely different shakeup in terms of what these rosters are going to look at. And we'll be breaking all of that down as we're getting more and more information. And we did even hear, you know, like a Tyler Houser from Delaware who started at VMI. He's committed to Chattanooga. Now the reports are that he might not even be available next year, but that's a big hit for Dan Earl. And this was a guy who was on the so-called all freshman team when he was at VMI. So again, another talented guy who did great things at Delaware after sitting out also because of another injury. So we've got all types of content to break down with the transfer portal. And also we do need to talk about something that is going to be very interesting. And that's the NCAA and tournament expansion. Mr. Baird, I know you've got some insight on that too. So that will be for another dedicated episode. So make sure you hit that subscribe button on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast, Apple podcast, Spotify, including the I Heart Radio app, because we've got a lot of content for the rest of the summer. Until next time, may all your jumpers hit nothing but the bottom of the net.