EP: 393 The True Story Behind The Conjuring with Chad Hayes

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And I said, well, this is a movie that has no sex, no violence, no blood. And it's completely led with two Christians, you know, Christians. Yeah, yeah. That teach you that there's good and evil in the world. And that's, I guess you could call that my horror movie. And I think that's why I crossed over, honestly. I think it just crossed over into a feeling and it opened up a big, big gate for movies like this to go tell real stories. And that do pick people's faith. And let's see how they use it. And what do they use it for? The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, and if they found out about large skeletons somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it busts the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they had a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop is just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Welcome back. Another episode of Blurry Creatures. Here in the basement with a screenwriter and producer of the Conjuring films series and Chad Hayes. You have a whole list of things you've created in your life, but probably the Conjuring is something that people will know out there that listen to our show. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. A whole handful of pastors and ministers, I mean just missionaries and my parents are from Canada. It was the Canadian side of my dad's family. And then we went to my parents, took us to church when we were young and then we didn't go for a while. I don't know for what reason. And my brother and I kind of got involved. And then when I met my wife a lot of years ago, we got involved in a group of people in Malibu that be just started getting into some cool studies. And Jason Sobel, I don't know if you know what I mean, he's a rabbi that just teaches church about the Old Testament. It's just super, super cool. And he was our good guy in Malibu for a long time. And now you should have him on here. I mean, got Jason just best selling off or all that stuff that you guys have ever. Yeah, I'm challenging Jason. We're coming up on 250 years and we want to celebrate our freedom here in America. So ranchers have built this country and our good friends. Good ranchers are hoping to bring those stakes to the table. Absolutely, this is really fun because Ben and Corley who started good ranchers are actually good friends. 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We've been talking about this for years. To support a company that's committed to honoring America's past, present and future, visit good ranchers.com today. When you subscribe, you'll save up to $500 a year. Plus, if you use code blurry, the LU or RY, you get an additional $25 off your first order. That's code blurry or an extra $25 off your first order on top of the $500 you'll save every year just for subscribing. GoodRanchers.com American Meat Delivered. You grew up with this framework. Like, I think the same thing happened to the Luke and I, a group in the church, and they kind of gave us a little bit of an understanding of angels, demons, weird stuff in the Bible. But when does it start to become like, oh, this is like something I want to put in, I'm afraid into my work and my creative outlet. Following House of Wax, we decided we didn't want to do any more gore porn. I didn't want to see kids slicing legs and wrists. I mean, I'm very appreciative of that film and what it was, but it was just a conscious thing to not do that. So that moved it more of what other kind of attacks are there in spiritual attack is very predominant in the world of possession, ecstrosism, things like that. So that kind of influenced us to start doing that research and then anecdotally, I just started collecting things that would be really good in films. And like when we were doing the conjuring, when the rain Warren was alive then, and my brother and I did a lot of research with Lorraine and I kid you not. She was in Connecticut. We're in Malibu and we're talking on the phone and suddenly you hear, like voices over the line and she would just start praying right in the middle of our conversation. They would fade out and she goes, boys, whatever we're talking about, that's called interference. So let's make sure we put that in the movie. And we're like, I don't remember what we were talking about. It's good to grab out of me. Wow. So how does one is a story of the conjuring? What does that story come to you and your brother and then you begin to write it? Because I mean, it's true story. Yeah. So how does this whole thing happen and get put together? Well, it's really interesting because it was submitted to Karen and I and it was just a couple sheets of paper on some scares that occurred in this farmhouse. And in our mind, it was like, family buys another haunted farmhouse. They didn't really make it that special. Be honest and so we passed on it the first time. And then my brother and I were talking about it and we were aware of Ed and Lorraine and we're like, wait a minute. Didn't they investigate this house? And that's where the whole, let's turn it around. So let's, this is new to me. Let's go investigate from an investigator's point of view when they're stepping into act three of another family's life. Like this family doesn't know what else to do. They're like, how do we solve this? What do we do? But most importantly, what we decide to do, we do this in all our films. If you ask me what the conjure is about, I'd say it's a love story between Ed and Lorraine Warren and oh, by the way, this is what they do for a living. So I pull you into that real world that they were in and she was a very religious woman and her husband was as well and very, very prayerful and she covered that a lot. James had her down to the set and she walked through our set in North Carolina and she asked for certain things to be taken away that she said, you know, anything can attach to anything. So a lot of that was, I don't, I don't even know how many items were removed. Did you, so did you consciously, when it comes to like creating art, I think with Blurry, like we didn't set out to create a Christian podcast. It just, the Christian part of it is just there. Right. We're not going to brand ourselves in one way or the other. It's just like we're just going to do it. Is that how you approach these films? It's exactly what happened to us. They exact. There was never. We did not set to write a religious film at all. All we did was, we stuck truthful to the characters and I will hand it. I know you had Diana on your show. And we first met. She was a religious studies expert living in Wilmington, North Carolina where we shot. And she was hired, tell Karen, I go through our script and make everything Catholic truthful. And Ed Warren was a Vatican II guy, you know, language and all that. Diana made that 100%. And my hat really goes off to her because I've been approached by so many priests like, are you boys Catholic? Because you just nailed that. You know, it's our friend Diana. She did all that. Well, the exorcist, you know, the movie we all grew up with, very Christian themes in and out of that and Catholic themes as well. But it's not something that Hollywood had never done before. Right. I think a lot of people want to stay true to, like I think Luke and I want to stay true to our faith and say this is a big part of it. But also the faith aspect seems to be written out of a lot of this stuff. And that sort of, I don't think, I think people can handle it. I know Hollywood probably doesn't want to, has its own reasons why it wouldn't. But it seems like you didn't care. You went right into it. We just went for it. Yeah. Can you tell our listeners a story of this whole story like in a nutshell too, like kind of the country? Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen it yet. Yeah. The country is a true story about a family that moved into a farmhouse. They moved from the city into a farmhouse. They have five daughters to just get away from the city and have some country living. They moved into this house and immediately noticed that the mom's personality was starting to change. And as the years went on, they found out, or I may be confusing this with what Karen I found under, they found out. But when we were researching the location of their farm that was originally based on a 500 acre farm. And on those 500 acres was the most odd deaths, like odd, like really weird, like drownings, like there's two families that lived on the 500 acres. And originally the character Abashiba, the witch, was in the true story, had married her husband and only gave birth to a child to sacrifice it to Satan. And in truth, she'd stepped it with a pair of knitting needles. And sacrifice just as her husband came in and saw her doing this. And he chased her. It was on the first day of harvest. And there were a lot of people there, and workers. She ran to the barn or some, yeah, we changed it to a tree, but it was a barn. And she went up there and she just flat out laid a curse to everyone that was witness to this and then she hung herself. And most of the people that had gathered were from two particular families, I can remember the last names of the families. And when we were researching the movie, what we found interesting is in looking up that 500 acres, and we put this in the film, very weird thing that's happened on those 500 acres, two members of those two families, like a car accident taking out four members at once on a little road and a drowning and I mean, just weird. The coincidence of all that, Ukrainians are just small areas. Yeah, just like the stackability of them. You're just interviewing someone who said the same thing. Really? That's why we had the reaction we just did. Yeah. Farm. The dying car crashes. The people. The mysterious dogs. Yeah. Just everything. And I'm always in. I have to full disclosure because to me, when we get involved in these things, I have a real hard time. Like, did I look that up and find that or did someone tell me that? So I apologize if someone told me that and I said, I looked it up or vice versa. Well, your brain's always way more clogged than ours and ours feels clogged. So at this point, they moved this farmhouse. The mother's personality begins to change. Yeah. And then they call in. The warrants came in to investigate that family. And I don't even remember how long they were there. But in the true story, which we could never do because it's a two hour movie, which has took place over a number of years. Yeah. And the family didn't have the financial means to move out, which is the one question as writers, we get asked in every single movie and you have to have that answer, why don't they just leave? Right. Just leave. So, oh, dad's a truck driver. They have no money. They have nowhere to go. Who's going to take in a family of seven? And definitely all their money went into the farmhouse. Who's going to buy a haunted farmhouse? Yeah. I mean, there's all these things that take place. Perfect storm. It is a perfect storm. It's funny because one of the real daughters came up to my brother and I on location and we brought them down there to just do what's called a press cat, where you interviewed the real family. If you go back to the DVD of it, I think the family's on there at some point being interviewed. And one of them said to my brother and I was like, oh my gosh, how on earth could you condense all this into two hours? I mean, you left a lot out and I go, well, it's not a mini series. Yeah. Yeah. So, in a lot of stories, like, it's bad for a while before they bring in the experts. Yes. So, what's happening to where the family's like, we got to bring in the experts? They just started seeing the intensity of everything got worse and worse and worse. The oldest daughter, Andrea Perrin, and I guess I'll plug her book because she writes about anyone that's really interested to read her book because she goes over all of that and really super great detail. But they saw everything from soldiers, like civil war soldiers marching through walls and the scary thing was the spirit of Bathsheba who had cursed anyone that tried to take her land would meet in on timely death. And that's what started happening and they believe that she was the one. Like the mom started dressing in old vintage clothes and went back to gardening old style and like they said her, I believe her voice even changed. Is that the unique element of this haunting? As far as Bathsheba, just like slowly morphing into a character. I don't think I've heard anything like that. Yeah, it's possession often in the research that I've done and the people that we've met before that have been possessed. It tends to be a very slow process. And you know, in movie magic we have to have it happen very quickly. But you know, you reference the exorcist, member Linda Kuzdown and she keys in front of everyone and look how worse it got after that. It's like that kind of thing. It's interesting to me because a lot of people go, well, possession is just mental illness and it's like, I've seen it go away instantaneously. I have. And a lot of times, my brother and I, we did some work on the prequel to the Omen over at 20 century Fox. So we got to go before that story and figure out where all that was. Yeah, that was super creepy. I don't see a lot of scary films because I'm one of those people that feels everything. So it's like, it just puts me in a bad head space for a long time. But I did actually watch this, the conjuring. We did? Yeah, because it was at the dollar theater. That's so funny. That's so funny. And there was no other movies playing and we were all like, oh, then it went to Mount Juliet to watch it. I'm like, all right, but I remember going, this is scary, but this is important. Wow. And I didn't know where I was in my faith exactly at that time, but it definitely felt like. I like that this is all incorporating the faith and it's not just staying scary for the sake of scaring now. It's all real reasons. You know, you're out there in those rabbit holes. Who can you trust? What stories can you trust? It's hard figuring out what the information is today. But when it comes to your supplements, you want to be able to trust the company you're dealing with with, get those extra nutritional needs that you might need. Who do you trust, Luke? Who can we trust? Trust momentous. And listen to this January guys, if you're listening here, hopefully you're still holding on to any resolutions or goals you have for the year. And a lot of us, those are health related. So for us, they got to know that's the case. And oftentimes with health stuff, you want to look for the right supplements. There's so many options and a very lightly regulated category. We partnered with momentous because they stand out. They're a high trust brand and a low trust category. 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So right now, momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first order with promo code blurry. Head to live momentous.com and use promo code blurry for up to 35% off your first order. That's live momentous.com promo code blurry. I'll share with you the my aunt who is no longer alive. My dad's sister was a missionary in India. And she and her husband, he was a pastor, moved their three children over to India and started a small church and orphanage. And I mean, so dedicated, they put their own kids in boarding school while they could do this thing. And they stayed there for 10 years. And on Easter Sunday, they packed up everything and they were heading home, going back to Canada. And my uncle left to return some books and he on a motor scooter and he never came back. And they later found him and passed her dead on the side of the road and to the stay. They don't really know what happened. And I remember being at an age looking at my aunt and going, how do you just not hate God? I mean, God, 10 years of your life, you know, a service to him and your husband dies on Easter Sunday. And I mean, come on. She looked at me. She was a beautiful, beautiful person and said, oh, you have to understand something. My herb is exactly where he always wanted to be. He is with the Lord. So just know that. So that became the inspiration for the film I was telling you about the reeping, the Hillary Swank movie. Because that movie opens with a missionary, incident, husband, child, husband, child or sacrifice. She can't get her head around it. The movie picks up five years later where she's now become a miracle debunker. She's out to prove that God does not exist. Because if he doesn't exist, then, wow, she just went down the wrong path and I don't need reasons and all of that. And Idris Alba plays her counterpart investigating these things. And he's a gang banger. There's been shop 13 times and made a deal with the Lord. If you save me, I will serve you. And so when you meet him, he's on fire. He's just out to prove the opposite of what she's out to prove. And it's all finding dandy until they get an investigation. They go to a little town Louisiana back in the swamps where the rivers turned to blood. And so have the plagues descend it. That's all I'll tell you. If you want to. Yeah. I think sometimes you're supposed to see certain things and you're supposed to have, I mean, it's like obviously I was supposed to see that movie. Yeah. Is the only one I want to add. Thank you for the support. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was only a dollar. Which means I'm getting about a tenth of a cent. There you go. Hey, I was a musician forever with him. You know, we didn't make anything. But you were just happy that somebody like appreciated your heart and the thing you put in the world. But I just think it's, you know, it was cool because sometimes we have an experience that we do and want to put ourselves into that experience. It just happens and you have to kind of deal with what I remember leaving thinking about a lot of my, you know, a different aspect of faith. And here we are all these years later sitting down talking about your movie. And it was in a genre that I would go into. This family is slowly watching their mom turn and have a possession. And that is something we do here. It's like the house gets crazier and crazier crazier over time. And once they kind of know how much they can push the limits and then they bring in the act, they bring in this couple of things. Generally what I've discovered is they create fear. And by creating fear you create doubt, you create insecurity. They'll go after the vulnerable first is what we've really witnessed, you know. And you could have someone who's very religious in a family who is witness to this but also at a loss because they don't know what to do, you know. And the one thing that Lorraine Warren had always told my brother and I, you've got more faith in your little pinky and that's the best warrior you could ever, best weapon you could ever use because that's connected to your heart, connected to your brain, connected to your soul. And so she just, everyone has the power within to make these go away. It's just sometimes it's gone too far and they've lost the control over that. Did she do something in particular? The mom story? No, not that I'm aware of. Just happened. I think it just happened. She became the target. Yeah. And like in our film, same thing. Nothing, nothing really. So again, I'm not recalling the exact investigation side of what led us to make those character choices for the Lily character and Mrs. Pairham because she started with bruises on her arm, unsure of where those came from. And then always in our world, supernatural world, there's always the need to put something scientific on it and tell you can't do that. That's what really raises the hair on the back of your neck. 100%. Yeah, we've had a couple of exercises, Catholic, as a show. And one of the things they talk about, vermin the very beginning, is that what's important is they rule out any scientific reason, right? So mental illness, it's a frendia, and they have this process by which they go through that to rule it out because once you rule those things out, and what's left is demonic. Which I like though, right? Because I think it's easy in some spaces to make everything a demon and everything is, but the reality is it's much more nuanced and then when it is, it is and it's terrifying. Did you go out and visit the actual farmhouse? Is it there? Is it there? I had never been to that. We were invited to go do, actually do a podcast from there at one point. Yeah. No, we did not, we did not do that. But we went to, I mean, we were on location, on set the whole time we were filming and got to experience that first hand, which was really interesting. Some weird things happen. That was my next question. I was going to ask you, like when you're making a film like this, which is obviously like Ephesians 5, right? It's like exposing the things of the darkness. What could it say? What happens? What kind of things happen? I wish my brother was here because you would share something that happened to him as his wife called him and she was kind of freaked out and she'd come out into her kitchen and they live out in Malibu and this is where on location, film me. And they had an elderly dog, this cocker spaniel and she went to the saying, did somebody say turn around and there was a big puddle of she assumed pee on the floor. And then it went away from where the dog had been lying down and she was like, well, that's weird and she realized very quickly it wasn't pee and she just got a bunch of paper towels and cleaned it up, went to the trash, threw it in there, turned around and it was right back in the exact same spot. Weird. That's so weird. Yeah. So, so weird. You know, if it's ancient times and you're looking good, maybe you have a coat of many colors back in the Bible times. Where would you get one today, Luke? Well, unless you're bigfoot and you grow your own cashmere sweater, Quinn's is the place. 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So right now, go to Quinn's.com slash brewery for free shipping at 365 day returns. It's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it and you will now available in Canada too. Hey, don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Quinn's.com slash brewery, qu, INCE.com slash brewery for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn's.com slash brewery. She was very concerned because my brother wasn't home. We were on location. What's going on? I eat the rest is kind of private but we talked to Lorraine and Lorraine kind of did Lorraine stuff and it never occurred again. Do you have stuff that happens on set during the filming of this? So we talked to, you know, the various guys and they told us about, they had one room at a haunted prison and they had like a priest on hand because they're doing obviously a demonic possession movie and the amount of salt they had brought. And then there was all kinds of crazy things that happen people getting. Well, I had a question before that too. So when you're picking this film, is it because there is an element of the paranormal that's kind of an outlier that makes it an interesting story or that there's some sort of, this story ends well. There's a, there's a Christian element to it. There's like a theme or is, because sometimes when we're trying to figure out what to bring on our show, it's like, if it's a, if it's a one of a kind story, it's a little harder to say no. I love happy endings to be honest with you. Yeah. Happy endings. Think about it. I love it when the devil loses, you know, and people are empowered and able and discover they have the tools to take care of this kind of thing themselves. So I'm a sucker for those. So I would say yes, we gravitate more toward to happier stories, you know, that kind of curve. There's, there's a lot of stuff. There's a place called Bology India. My brother and I were doing research on a film. And over in India, they don't call them demons. They call them jins. Yes. And they believe you can trap a gin where genia and bottle came. They would be lead bottles and you would coerce the genia and the bottle and seal it off and lead and then can never come out. Embology is a random little town in the middle of nowhere. So Karen, I command the only white guys for probably a hundred miles, right? And we command on a dirt road. And as far as we could see, people were lined up to go into this sanctuary. This looked like a rundown compound, you know, and they're all just lined up and waiting so patiently. And it's blistering hot. It's just so hot. And we were with a wonderful Indian producer named Rakesh Mera and Rakesh told us a couple things. He goes, okay, you are going to be allowed to go in and you're going to witness an exorcism if you wish, but you're going to go by a number of people that claim to be possessed or families have saved up all their money to bring these individuals to this temple to have the bopas, the religious leaders remove the spirit from these bodies. And it was a really weird because he said, and this is daisy before he got there he goes, you will be a large number, a large presence of black dogs. And I hadn't seen a black dog. I started looking for black dogs around Indian stuff. And notice where they're lying down. Entrances and exits, mostly at entrances. It was like, woo, okay. So my brother and I are led in, Rakesh brings us in. We have someone showing us up to the substers level. And there's a very large muscular guy. It's probably six four. And the other thing is, don't make eye contact with anybody. Just do not look anyone in the eye. And of course my brother and I are writers and we pass this guy and we both look at him in the face. The darkest, most unholy expression I've ever seen in my face. And this man was chained to a wall behind him. But what we noticed is he wasn't sweaty. There's no perspiration. It's blistering up. It's so hot. I can't tell you. It was like in northwestern India by Pakistan. This is like way up there. And so we looked at him and it just gave me the creeps. I can go back to that moment right now and I get chills thinking about it. Walk up to the top of the stairs and what's the top of the stairs about five black dogs just laying by this front door. So you go inside and what they believe there is that once possessed, the possession will protect the body to not be damaged because it's the vehicle for the body. So people do supernatural things that would injure you or I that wouldn't occur. And for example, we saw a little girl about nine years old. You go up into a room about size of your studio here. There's people sitting everywhere waiting their turn to go in and have an ecstasy and perform. And this cute little girl about nine years old is just giggling fanatically and she's doing back flips in the air. But landing on her back and smacking her head, bam. And she has stand up and do it again, bam. And I'm just like, oh my God, no blood, nothing, absolutely nothing. And I'm just like, I can't to this day I could never explain to you why that girl was an injured. Anyway, I could go 10 more stories about this. But what happened is later, our Requesh, he lasted about 15 seconds in this place. And he goes, you're on your own, I'm out of here and he left. And we met him down the street and we were having a tea later and just talking about this experience. And that man with the eyes walks by with his arms around older people like I'm assuming his mother and his father laughing, laughing, laughing, nothing looked the same on his face. Absolutely friendly. Joe Vioe is that sparkled and he was as close as you and I. Any walk by. This is the guy that was trained. Yeah. What do you make of that? I'm trying to puzzle like is if you have these demonized folks and they're going to a temple, the Bible says that the state won't cast himself out. Right. So what do you make of how, of what's happening in that space as a believer? Because unless they're using the name of Jesus, I mean, I don't, I would doubt that. Okay. It's all in handy. So I don't know what they were saying, be honest with you. Something and they told me or Karen, I most oftentimes it's not successful. These people have to repeatedly come back over in the lobby, sweep online. Sometimes leave for a year and come back. That sounds like a great scam. You know, we'll just work the spirits out for two weeks and you have to come back and pay another fee and then you have to keep paying money. Well, that could be, it could be some of the deception though, is that you are getting temporary relief for a lot of people. What's up? Actually, I was like, once you've, once people have been exercised, the idea that you're again an empty vessel and if you do not feel yourself with a Holy Spirit, essentially, whatever is there can return. You know, Heiser said, you know, and the first time I showed, I was like, you know, I find people come to me and they say they get spiritual healing from these other entities, which doctors, etc. But nothing ever lasting. See, that's interesting because to me, it's like if it's a mental illness, I mean, I don't know how that goes away. It's like, and that's the difference. It's like, I've never seen anyone walk into a temple, be prayed over and then leave. Well, like as miracles do happen, you know, that can occur. Well, I think the interesting part about the story too is that that demons do when they inhabit somebody, they do have sort of physical strength that they wouldn't have. Or they change physicality to talk about the count, like people's appearance. So they slowly creep on and back to the conjuring story because my mind keeps going back there. So the mom is, and they bring it in the experts, this couple to come in and help. Yeah. And it was, again, I'm going back on my memory as a long, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because what I believe is that she was possessed and it got worse and worse and worse. She somehow ended up injuring herself, something in the garden did something to her. And her husband said that she just even physically just changed her whole personality completely, completely changed. And even her language became very like prokyl, like old school, the way they used to talk. And he goes, they got married like when they were 15 or 18 and they've never been exposed. You never spoke like Billy Shakespeare? No, that's right. Nothing like that. And so they found that interesting. And then I think when Ed and Lorraine came by, they do blessings over the house, like you see in the movie. And in this particular film, I'm, God, I'm trying to remember exactly when Pat Wilson when Ed, who plays Ed, was doing his whole proclamation at the end. And you're supposed to be someone of a cloth is supposed to do it. And I remember them saying something or Lorraine saying something really intense went down there. And that they had to do something that they really didn't feel they were qualified to do, but they still did it anyway. And I think that's what led to that scene in that movie of Ed doing that. But you just made me think of somebody else. So Bathsheba was, she was the lady that lived there, the original woman. Okay. I'm sorry guys. I should have done my homework and gone back. No, it's all right. It's all right. She married a guy and she was just 17 years old. And what no one knew is she was a practicing Satanist at that young age. And so the whole idea of sacrificing the child to Satan and making the proclamation that she did in our movie was always about also what does the spirit do in these women? But why possess these women? What do you hope to get out of it? And her hope was to get the mothers to kill their children just like she had. And so that's what they figure out in the theme of the conjuring that Lorraine discovered. And so you have to separate the mother from the kids. So this doesn't happen. But I'll let your listeners in on a little interesting bit of trivia is that when you watch the conjuring, the exorcism scene, you know, with that guy, that's based on true story of footage. My brother and I have actually seen of that guy who was a dairy farmer was in the footage we saw was from the Catholic church had filmed it. And it was just their resources. You know, and usually do that either. I don't know why, but it was because this guy, this a number of occurrences had happened. And Ed and Lorraine wanted it to be filmed so that it was tangibly proof proof for them because prior to them doing any of this, all they had to do is gather proof and go to the church and turn it over to the church. And then the church would send someone in to take care of it. So they needed the proof in order to do it. But when you watch that in the film, the guy who plays the priest is in fact a real priest and you're witnessing a real exorcism in that, I mean, it's acted out. But all that is 100%. He's reading the rights and all that. But yeah, when you see the footage that my brother and I saw was the guy pulling up a shirt and there were crosses appearing, you just footage is just super, super old and upside down crosses and then blood just involuntarily coming out of certain areas and out of the eyes and stuff. And it's trippy. It's really trippy. So they were kind of called in sort of like CPS almost for the church. Like go see if there's a problem. It's going to investigate. And then for the rest, we're going to send in a big dog. Exactly. That's how it all started. Lorraine has this unbelievable ability. She is what's called a pre-cognitive. And so she can be in situations and see what happened in certain situations. She's worked with the police endlessly to help them solve murders. I mean, in one particular case, she completely identified the person that they were looking for because it couldn't be solved. And she told my brother and I, a story of. She believed her. She believed her. Lorraine? Yeah. Oh, big time. And her husband, both. And she was called in by a detective and said, we're just having a hard time. And she said, and it was about a woman that had been murdered on the side of a highway off an exit. And he said, I've heard about you. I would like to know if you have anything that you could do. And she got up to the scene and she won't go into details. And she said, she goes, you need to look for a cop. It was a cop that did this. Like I was like, what? I need your statement. She went in and she saw who it was in the police station. And she told the guy. Looking to him. And she just had this, like he's so carrying so much burden that if you confront him, he'll spill it. He'll let it out. That's exactly what happened. You just something turned into it. That's crazy. Lorraine will tell you. I mean, she has, she can read Orra's on the set of the Condrian, which was crazy. This guy came up to us one of the gaffers and he said, hey, can you ask Lorraine, I understand she reads Orra's what an aura in the shape of a red top hat means. And I was like, no, well, you go ask her. I'm not asking. I know. If you don't want to jump to it. I don't, so we're having lunch with Lorraine. I go, Lorraine, one of the gaffers wanted to know what an aura in the shape of a red top hat means. And she goes literally, she goes, we're inside the commissary. Was it him right there? And it was the guy who would come up to my brother and I and ask us that question. That woman got up out of her seat, walked over to him, couldn't hear, put her arm over her shoulder. They both walk out of the tent. Come walk him back in 20 minutes later, 30 minutes later. These happiest can be the hug it out. She comes and sits back down. I go, what happened? She has, it's not red anymore. So was that like a anger, something demonic? A dream anger. A demonically influenced extreme anger. He was in the middle of a really bad divorce and losing custody of his child. And he only knew he had a red aura because he got in one of those carnivals that shoots the energy pictures. And his daughter had this beautiful angelic aura. And he had his in the shape of a red top hat because they have these machines that can pick up on your energy above you. It's weird. It's really weird. It's really weird. I'm only going to think about that. That's like every other day on our show. Something has to go. What's going on? I'm going to have spikes coming out. I wanted to get back to though because we started, we kind of got off, but a little bit, but just sort of, you're creating this piece of art. We're telling this story, this real story with real demonic possession, curses, which is, and we talked a little bit about maybe some of the things that happened behind the scenes. And was there anything else that like this stuck out to you as you're creating this? Yeah. Tansier question, which was crazy was we were my son and just gotten out of film school. And John Leonetti, who was the director of photography for James Wan, they had done and sit together and I think he worked on, I forget, with some other James films. So I called him up and I said, hey, I want to get my son working on this film. And he goes, did no babysitting jobs here. Those anymore. You don't, well, I promise you this will be a good thing. So he met my son, who's six foot four, you know, two Dan and really behind the camera guy. Everything about group of movies, that's just loves it and is now off making his own stuff. But he worked in the camera crew and we were on location where the artifacts room, if you remember in the movie, which is all the pieces that they pulled from, they called it keeping guns off the street. And in truth, Edna Rain had that in their house and a priest came, I am blessed that every single day just to keep it all in, where the Annabelle Dawas and all that other stuff and so my, we wrapped one night and if you know anything about movie business, the minute you go, it's a wrap, bam, all those lights, all those expensive lights shut down and everyone goes to flashlights. In general, you put a flashlight in your mouth and then you're just working or you have a headlamp on your head. And his job was to recoil cable, but he had it from the artifacts room that we were shooting in and the artifacts room weren't filled with a lot of the real stuff from their place, although all those paintings in the movie are real paintings that had painted that we put all that artwork in the real film, real artwork in the film. And so my son is, if you remember that little monkey that goes like this ting, ting, ting in the movie, a little artifact thing, it started doing that when he was on his own. And then he heard something fall, it looks down the floor in this little symbol that it had or was next to it was on the ground just spinning on its own completely spin that song. And my son just shot out of there faster than anything you could see and you know camera guys are like football players, right? He was 18 at the time. I wish he was here because he tells it much better. It literally just scared you know what movie within a movie it was and he refused to go back in. And then Scotty, his boss was like grow up and go day and go see you can fire me. I am not going in there. So what's the story behind the Anabel doll? Yeah, the best. The Anabel doll is also based on true story of how we opened that movie is really almost virtually identical to the interview that was done with those people down to the dialogue when and the rain interviewed them for though when you watch the opening of the movie that is almost exactly the interview that occurred with those two nurses, the boyfriend of one of the nurses, they decided to to rescue this doll because they heard the story that there was a spirit caught in the door inside the doll. And so they thought they would bring it home and you know blah blah blah blah and then all that weirdness started happening and the writing on the wall and the doll would be in different places that they put it. They started sifting flower on the floor thinking someone was coming in and doing nothing, nothing, nothing ever occurred like that. And what you don't see in the opening of the movie which we had put in there that really happened is the young man had been attacked by the Anabel doll like left scratched and bleeding and things like that. And yeah, I mean just weirdness and you know part of me is like sometimes things are so real that you wouldn't believe it like you would never it's just hard to believe a doll would or could actually scratch someone but you know we believe an animal could you know if an animal was demonically pushed or heard or other humans could so it's the spirit of the spirit. So I like a poltergeist exactly the movement the energy behind it and so they actually through that thing away and it came back and that was the beginning of the end. I mean when they were just like no no no no and so I had in the rain took that doll right it back to their place and actually put it in a glassing closure in their artifact room and they're remained until Dan Rivera. Yeah that guy took it out on tour and I don't know what to ask you about that because I mean cheers. Yeah so listeners give her listeners a little backstory the the dog goes in the glass case and then the some guy gets it paranormal investigator and then Dan Rivera takes it on tour and then July of 2025 he mysteriously passes away which you look at them they claim it was unrelated but it's also like a series of coincidences are not a coincidence I in this in my mind and I don't believe in coincidence at all. Yeah actually. So I mean you know the farm all the bad stuff happening on there. Just five enter acres. How does that work connected to something that's in living inside of the house I mean we've been to many people who say someone to like in a certain square mile that you know that's where all the negative things happen then outside of it it seems to stop if there's something connected to that doll obviously you could apply the same kind of spiritual physics I guess to that maybe you could maybe tragedy follows the doll. Yeah or the energy within it or it's still there you know they the supernatural knows no time well know that right there is no time so it doesn't mean anything to be in a case inside something until the sense of freedom or you know the ability to do it again there's it's interesting there's a there's another project that my brother and I are exactly producing over it with Jamie Foxx and it's really cool and it's called Buried and you know Spielberg did poltergeist and they built the house in Indian burial ground well that's based on true story. To place in Texas better it wasn't an Indian burial ground it was a slave burial ground that they found these bodies when they were digging a pool and stuff like that and so we did a lot of research around there and a lot of really weird things happened around that property and and what they were occurring so I mean I'm just reiterating that when the family moves in in our little mini series and a brand new house and they're the only second family into this place and what happens because in the back history is they were marauded by a horrible person that just didn't believe that the black people should be anywhere around his property and he tried to scare them away and then did a bunch of horrible things and they took in their own hands and they killed him and they buried him in their graveyard so that no one would ever find his body. Never find his body and then a lot of times people sometimes believe in the ritual of the way he was buried in the Caribbean tradition of how they did it they put his body in a position that he would remain in purgatory for his entire existence was their belief system and they had done special things to his body when they they put him in there and then somehow body gets moved things get changed my point being the animal doll it's like did the spirit ever really leave was the spirit always there I mean who knows I think we're like the Fritz Zimmerman yeah like the mounds and how value are all those these ghost shows happen usually there's like ancient mounds that are here when they find people buried him a certain way they buried him they did just pop him in the dirt it's kind of thing so it's what you wonder if like what what laws they understood hands up hands down head upside down I see him all that weird yeah the object thing is really interesting and so I was instabated too right as this idea that like spirits can attach to inanimate objects we're really familiar with like demonic possessions and people and and things that are vessels but it's really fascinating when these things become attached to inanimate objects right it's highly debated in some spaces people will go so far to be like get a prayer everything you bring home from good will okay people do and people do and then but the other part is like that can't even happen which is really interesting because even the Bible age they mean they would the spirits of their idols be put there because they possess it would be it was a piece of wood or a piece of stone that their god would possess that piece of inanimate object right and it is yeah it's more complicated well they yeah I told you Lorraine walked around our set and was just oh she pulling off the set yeah can't remember exactly there was there was a very large raggedy and all not dissimilar to Annabelle but very very large and we never shot that or use that and James took it upon himself where he designed that Annabelle doll himself which was really made out of clay and just wanted to kind of do his own thing on it he did a really good job he's pretty good remember that doll maker just kept coming into the set over and over and over no a little more here a little more there yeah so you said you know obviously you chased down the happy ending stories like where does the story go from there how does it redeem itself in the country yeah well they were able to release the spirit from Carolyn Perron the scaper the freedom and re-control over her body and her life and her family and did she have memory of anything I don't believe she did honestly I just don't know I again I would refer to it her daughter's book are you gonna go this too it would it would give you that online because sometimes it gets lost in that movie blur yeah yeah I know it's been a while for me over 10 years I want to ask you a question just about like the genre in general obviously you your brother's believers are telling stories that reveal the supernatural realities and tell some of these crazy stories but there's a redemptive quality to this do you think that they're that some pieces of art that are meant just to be terrifying and in general and that's the intent behind it can open things up to people yeah yeah yeah I think so I think that there's people are often witness to terrifying events that change their lives they don't necessarily well they do affect them personally when you're witness to that kind of thing you know it's even if it's simulated in a sense like on again a film do you think that well it's what happened now the conjuring was again so many interviews like does that really happen do demons really exist right yes sir they do what about people who are non-crisons on the set are they experiencing that like are they starting to ask faith questions I'd not to me I didn't experience any of that I I'm willing to bet probably to the Lorraine once people got to know her a comfort zone I mean it's a working environment so part of me is like hmm do people really want to share how they feel or not I don't really know I know because I feel like you know that's sort of the thing that happens at the cross you know the guards are like surely this was a son of God like when you're in that moment yeah you know and if you don't have the backstory or the faith well it's sort of like here's the difference too it's crazy so the lady of atima the three shepherd children are witness to the mother Mary and spirit form that created massive pilgrimage there every single year to try to witness and they're getting messages from the mother that they now share right Chris Bledso who you guys know right of Chris this UFO abducting has the exact same experience witnesses the mother gets a message from the mother I mean it's all incredible absolutely and nothing they have all super super positive and well actually more of a warning like be careful this is where we're heading if if things don't occur in the old days those children are made into saints and Chris is just called crazy yeah absolutely crazy and so it's like wow where did that turn you know where like even when the disciples witnessed some of the miracles they still weren't in a hundred percent you know so she doesn't remember this happens and you know obviously the family has a better ending I mean the day we met you first time Joe Anderson's in here right and he's telling his story it doesn't have a happy ending you know and for a lot of us I think we have this faith where if we just say the name of Jesus like it's like it's like it's almost like we take the power in our own hands instead of saying God ultimately you have the authority to do what you want to do here obviously I'm going to say the name of Jesus too if something's attacking me but you know as we found that there's not there's not always a happy ending to these stories how is your perspective changed when starting something like this getting into this genre and now well it's such a good question I guess the first time I met you two in person was he had just done Joe just in your show yeah he just didn't give me the book and I read the book and I and but what did I say at lunch it's like I would never make this into a movie because I want a happy ending I want I want I mean God bless the man there's a horrible story and it's the right thing it's just it's a hard thing get your head around so how does it affect me I hear that as often as it as it works out you hear it just that same way and it breaks my heart it just really breaks my heart because you know we're led to believe miracles can happen well why didn't it occur then yeah so again we can't answer everything because I don't know how to how is operating the space of writing in the supernatural genre and in some of the horror genre etc how is the sort of the research into these supernatural things how does it change change or impacted your faith oh you mean just stronger stronger yeah just the the ability to eliminate the fear is a really big thing you know it's not to say I haven't felt like intensely intense moments of being in certain spaces I wish I wasn't at not mentally bit like physically sometimes like it's just unpredictable I believe in the Lord and I believe I'm protected and but I don't ever want to feel like I'm not you know and I guess if that were to occur it hasn't occurred yet thank the Lord but that would be terrifying utterly terrifying but then my mind as a creator a writer I go to wow that's that's the fear these people live in that is the fear they live in we for people say on the show that like the demonic feed off fear they're like fear harvesting like that is the that is much of the intent is to harvest people's fear yeah I mean I'm written and written laws sort of the gasoline of the the there's a great book called the devil came to St. Louis I don't know if you guys are familiar with that and it's a book that's based on Robbie Manoheim who was the Linda Blair character in the actresses he was a it was a kid he was a boy and they changed the identity to a girl A to protect his identity but also they felt there was I think more of a vulnerability and a young girl but in doing that research and we were turning that into a a TV a mini series that actually has yet to be made but in doing the research I came across the diaries written by the three priests who performed the ecsticism on Robbie now the true story is Robbie was kept at a point in his life in a craze in the top floor of a hospital in St. Louis a silent in a silent yeah in a room that he didn't leave for years and it was in that room they found these diaries that had been left by the priests that were there and the first time they tried to demolish the asylum with a wrecking ball the wrecking ball didn't do any damage it was the second time it went like the girl falling back on her head almost so I don't know what that means again it's like all that but the point being is like one one of the priests that went through that that the public doesn't know lost in a very short period of time like 35 pounds and broke out in boils over his entire body the youngest guy who is the youngest clergy member told the experiences of how his own dog turned on him like he became fearful coming home because his dog got so aggressively aggressive toward him weird yeah just weird that's what the we brought a cab extra sistan he said if they tell you whatever they vomit out of their mouth that if you touch the nails of the frogs whatever people vomit out when they're having you know when they're being exercised they'll you'll break out in boils and if you touch the Dan Rieho yeah yeah yeah so they don't you don't they they tell you and you know exercise school don't touch anything that's vomited out of the person because you break out what is the what's this is scary story that you've come across that you haven't put on into into a film or into writing you know like we're talking about Joe's and Joe's as he doesn't have a happy ending but is there any are there any terrifying stories you're just like that just not I don't want to touch any of this or yeah it's mostly when stuff like that happens to kids I was really affected by his story because it was it was just so sad. It's really really really so yeah for our listeners we all went out to lunch with Joe and you were there to do and we were kind of like our first thing because we hung out the night before yeah at a Lieutenant Dan's party yeah here in Nashville but that's another story but and then you kind of like and I was really cool of you to kind of listen to Joe and let him tell the story it was kind of wild how it all happened we're all there yeah just all came around there's there's there's stuff I go no I know I know I don't even want to go there I don't want to look at that I don't want to be part of that I feel really bad a lot of times those poor kids are in the sex exploitation market is run by demons I believe 100 percent people that are horribly possessed by something that they just don't they just I think that's I personally that's the darkest thing there is trafficking the trafficking of children I don't think it gets any darker than we than that I think we run in the space of nuance a lot and I think everyone a lot of people that there's a lot of like fundamental beliefs about Hollywood it's just all bad and all demonic yeah and you know you're you're you're here trying to tell us like there is a lot of a moral decisions that are kind of made behind the scenes to produce some of this content but it seems like obviously it's not just about selling tickets to movies no you're gonna see there's a huge surgeons I didn't want to say resurgence because I don't think it ever really existed on the scale that it's probably heading toward now and I think with shows like House of David and things like that from Irwin's that not only can they be educational they can be entertaining and they're based in truth and so I think there's a giant movement step toward those stories I actually do know that because I'm part of it so it's kind of exciting but it's it's a way to really tell these really great truthful stories that have God's work in them and show the influence that that faith has on certain individuals I mean I go back to David the House of David I just it was so well done I mean just so well done and anyone that doesn't even know the Bible that's what a great way to learn the Bible yeah as an epic story it's like it doesn't matter if you know the story or not it's yeah did you get emails from people that like watch the movie The Conjuring and then said they found faith uh-huh yeah really yeah we interviewed some people I mean New Line had a little theater and allowed my brother and I each have our own like personal screening of the Conjuring and so he invited his group of friends when I invited my group of friends and my brother got a call when he got home from the son of his friend who said can I come over and see you and they live close to one another yeah of course and he came over and he goes I argue with my dad the whole way home and I have to know one thing our demons real our demons real brother said yeah demons are real and it changes boys life yeah he just and that's when he got the call from the dad and goes I don't know what you said that he's my kids just turn around just turn around and I don't want to weather he was I'm a happy kid I don't know nothing about this kid yeah yeah yeah but um things changed after that well I think that's the power of the gospel as you can go anywhere yeah you know where I seems like the darkness wants to stay out of certain areas but the gospel goes everywhere you know yeah I think that's really it's the truth and really is the truth and it's um it's you know having traveled to so many different countries and witnessed so many different things and everyone has different labels for what they call it but I have to in all sincerity believe it is all the same thing you know and it's I I don't believe that demonic activity is any different in the United States than it is in the Ukraine or you know wherever else that we want to go because evil is evil yeah and so however you label it that's that's up to you but you know hopefully you're given the tools to defeat it if it confronts you I mean have you and your brother been confronted by stuff you think the only way I've been confronted by things is by having stuff happen to people around me like that story I was sharing you on on at the LaLory House with Doug and that was that was just one and there was a lot of stuff that happened there yeah yeah I I will take the when we were 18 and graduating from high school we went to a graduation party in high school we lived in Lake Tahoe California yeah yeah yeah yeah I was just terrible terrible I had to go skiing all its mom and I'm just really sucked and and I'm sure there was alcohol involved in this moment and my brother and I lived in a home where you entered on the from the ground level was the side of a mountain and all the bedrooms were downstairs and what sucked is at the bottom of the stairs was my parents bedroom and if you were out their door was always open until you came home yeah and they could hear you and then my dad would get up and close the door and so we walked down the stairs and carries right behind me single file walking down this long hallway and we both saw something at the exact same time at the end of the hallway that was very large and very dark to a point where we literally just dove into a bathroom that was next to us and shut the door we're like we're like what the hell was that my god what was that it looked really omnis it didn't it wasn't human it was it looked it looked dark and Tahoe you hear all the spirits of the Indians all that kind of stuff and so these popping about a lake all those stories oh yeah the door opens and there's my dad standing there it was looking over and he goes what the hell is going on dad watch out there was something just huge at the end of the hallway my dad made us walk around that entire house going to every room turn on every single light didn't matter my sister was asleep or younger brother was asleep the mom was asleep of course we didn't see anything but I just found that was kind of our first encounter and because he was behind me and we both saw something at the exact same time something was there and then later this other friend who who does those kind of prayerful cleansings on places and stuff we had her come up there and she claimed that there was a weird corner in this house that's something could have been coming from and up there there's all kinds of burial grounds all kinds of weird stuff what what won't you do now like what's something you wouldn't do or tell someone not to do based on your experiences oh my I would never dabble in the darkness of wegey or I would never do anything as summoned anything you're just asking for trouble you know I'm not going to go to a bridge and say a name three times in the middle of the night and try to manifest some spirit that has made that weird rule or yeah you hear these things all the time and I constantly hear horrifying stories surrounding wegey words honestly and for the longest time I've had it said dumb it's a game and no one moves it but now it's having seen poltergeist activity and things moving on their own oh that really happens yeah you can really do that we are have a carry carry would tell you we're doing a film that his son Sawyer Shunguson went to school as an exchange student over in Florence and he moved in with four other people to the a floor of a villa gorgeous that have been transformed for student housing with a family lived on the top floor just to make income or whatever and the very first time he was there he was like oh let's move this armor it was like in a weird place and they moved it and there was a door behind the armor that had been painted over if you meet my nephew sorry he's the most inquisitive person in the world he just he'll ask for forgiveness after he does things goes in opens up the door and they found a couple of paintings and one in particular was very disturbing of a young boy and two girls and the boy was looking at the artists with a weird look and the girls were looking away and someone had depicted that and they put it up on the mantel piece and his apartment Sasha Villa became kind of notable in Florence for people going and seeing Poltergeist activity and and so he was saying he would call his dad and I would hear these stories about how the South shaker went off the table a camera got busted against a wall and people just start showing up to see all this stuff and it only started occurring because when they put the painting on top of the mantel piece and then they found out a bunch of dark stuff it happened in this place and my nephew wanted to say dad this would be a great comedy and brother's like comedy no so now we're making it into a scary movie I was just in Florence this summer it's so beautiful why do you think people have hang ups to to believe in this stuff why do you what do you think I think it just raises too many questions you know or fear uncomfortable truths yeah if that's real then I have things to be afraid of if I don't believe it right now I don't have to be afraid of it you know in that spiritual world there is a lot to be afraid of there really is and you guys know you interview all these people that purposely are not purposely participate in these events and even when I saw you know when we were in New Orleans at that house and something really weird happened to our friend's son and he left just right then it was like one o'clock in the morning and he just left he was I am not staying in this house and that's when we learned you can't rent a hotel room in New Orleans after midnight you have to pre-pay for a hotel room in New Orleans or they won't rent your room it's a prostitution or something and he had to come back to the house and he came back and he told this other buddy Josh let's see move over man I'm gonna I'm staying here alone not doing that and he talked about it and so every night after that Karen I were the only ones that would stay there and the rest just went over to the Aces and hung out there just we're so uncomfortable with it why do you think inanimate objects get possessed like I fear fear I don't think they're possessed like some of them think they're manipulated maybe they are and I mean Annabelle and all that but I'm thinking like when you see a poltergeist when you see something actually move off a thing I think it's to jolt you into like so something's hitting that yeah and it's making you know something is here that I cannot see so you don't believe a spirit went into the doll or the doll's hard visual for me to be really honest with you but something happens yeah something happens or we talked to uh on the next witch one of the many on the show and she talked about how she would knit things she would say she would knit she would sew her intentions into these objects and then she would give them to people that she wanted to curse or also as an access point for her when she asked her projected so yeah yeah I mean so I'm always like there's I think there's a set of rules that we don't quite understand that that exists with these things right like where whether it's like it becomes a portal or an anchor point or even it does it can house something well enough to where you had to put it in a glass case you know that is yeah like it's not just like oh let's get the spirit out of here and then the doll's cool it's like no we have to lock up the doll and that's weird I mean yeah I just I think my last question would be like you kind of talked a bit about this but like what um what products do you can tell us about coming up aside from the one in the Florence project are you are you real excited about oh toley uh toley excited uh toley were have a a big foot movie that we're putting together with willy roberts from deck dynastine quarry is way um super excited my brother and i've already written the script on that and it's just gonna be super fun so it'd be scary it's scary yeah it's really scary but there there's nothing slow about this big foot and there's you actually uh I don't want to tell you anything about it oh yeah we're excited to find out about that um what else are you doing we're doing a uh I'm doing an adaptation of a Robin Cook novel called mutation which is really fun and then we just got a pilot script ordered for a new series at apple that we're calling the devil's door at the moment which is kind of a supernatural thriller surrounding the pope and the Vatican and really it's super fun I mean really we just just literally finished the outline for the pilot script and so we went in and pitched a three-season arc on the show with eight to ten episodes each thing and I love the apple shows I just binge them all the time and yeah and they're just cool the the the folks over there are just really cool and toley get it and then we're doing uh my brother and i are about to direct a movie in uh April over in Bulgaria called train and that's a supernatural thriller on a train about a a young girl who the opening of the movie is she's lying in bed and she hears a noise in in a corner of her room and she looks over and she puts her light in and nothing's there and just then her door bursts open and two guys like you come into a room grab her pull her out of her bed pull her down the stairs she's screaming for her mom and dad gets to the bomb of stairs and her mom and dad are standing there and there's a suitcase and you find out it's an intervention and she's being taken away and the mom can't stand to see her being taken like that so she says i'll take her to the place so she gets on to a train with a daughter that has no stops nothing to go on this 18 hour train ride to take her daughter as places just allows a ditch effort to get to know her but you find out that this young girl had a horrible experience her younger brother died on her watch she blamed herself she tried to take her own life was clinically dead and then was saved and came back but she keeps seeing like horrible things demonic things dead things dead people all this and her therapist is convinced her to write everything down and draw them and it's a manifestation of guilt and you'll just get rid of them on a piece of paper and on this train she gets confronted by a scary scary thing that you think is really trying to scare when in fact it's trying to get her help so it's like that's all i want to tell you really and why what's the help and but it's a journey this is a movie about a relationship between a mother and a daughter and oh by the way this is what's occurring to them at this moment when all this something's really funny when you when you talk about this chat is you've started this show talking about how the conjure is really a love story yeah in between ed and Lorraine but you're you're drawn into this what's happening around them right and how they're placed into this that's why I think you know this really science is a great Christian movie as well i love that movie yeah yeah what do you think i mean my last question would be what do you want people to take away from your films like what is it depending on how dark it goes what is your hope for oh my gosh my ultimately the truth be told i want you to be thoroughly entertained and i want you to identify with the characters and i want you to be curious enough to investigate and see if that really occurred you know and that's half the fun of why i like to do true stories because after you leave one of my films you can go on the internet and you can research and you're like oh my gosh that really happened yeah and one of the reasons when we brought the parent girls down was they would describe the situations and the the scares that occurred to them as young girls and we would intercut that with the actual footage of the movie where we are depicting what really happened to these girls so right away you had a sense of wow they're telling the truth and i'm seeing the truth and i think in the truth such a free so yeah it's like yeah the truth the truth is powerful when you're confronted by it and i think a lot of times people listening to our show or watch your movies mainly more in the Christian space they have a problem with it but it's like the truth is powerful whether it comes from some crazy person on the street that tells you something or you know the most straight lace pastor on Sunday morning it's like sort of the beauty of living a full life is that you kind of are always running into God's truth everywhere and you can't can't walk away from it at a certain point i'll tell you one last thing because of what you just said is i can't tell you how many Christians were like well my church tells me not to go see movies like that and i go like what what well it's a horror film it's like well okay so you don't go see any movie that you don't know what it's about or anything it's just depicted as a horror movie yeah and well what do you mean i said well this is a movie that has no sex no violence no blood and it's completely led with two Christians or you know Christian yeah yeah that teach you that there's good and evil in the world and that's i guess you could call that my horror movie and i think that's way across over honestly i think it just crossed over into a feeling and it opened up a big big gate for movies like this to go tell real stories you know and that depict people's faith and let's see how they use it and what do they use it for and what does that transform i mean that's church yeah it's like it's the same thing we go in we get told stories and how do they affect us right oh i believe that yeah i i can identify with that sure okay it's the same thing someone told me something i'll never forget long before i started blurr creatures they were like they were at Dodger stadium they're at a YouTube show so it's like the whole place is passed with you two and they're and they're they're just finished you know with or without you okay and he's like that's a Christian song yeah they're all Christian men yeah they were a worshipping before they were and then they break out an amazing grace after that's and and it was like that happened at a show yeah he goes the biggest thing in the world is the truth and the gospel it's bigger like the reason why cold play will never be as big as you too is because they don't do Christian music it's just that people don't know it's Christian music yeah and i was like dude that is you gotta write that down you gotta put that on like it's very profound but this kind of what you're doing you you're making Christian movies but nobody knows yeah the you know i told you but bulk of people don't yeah it's it's like oh sorry you guys i feel like i'm never ending in air but no no keep going like one of these like i'm so glad you said that because you know the truth is the commonality of the world has us we like to be entertained yeah and generally most people like to go see films yeah so let's just present movies and stories in such a way that people walk away and they want to emulate that character honestly look at Jesus live like Jesus you know what i'm saying so it's it's not far from what we're doing so it's the many you start manipulating and telling lies and having things work your movie way that become unbelievable i think that's when you start running into problems you know and so by choosing character first and choosing the point of view and the of the narrative is what people will either or not identify well basically so it's interesting talking to Vera Farminga who played Lorraine Warren you know Vera's family was Romanian or father's very religious and they fled religious prosecution to come to the United States and so we would get into these conversations about religion and all that stuff and it's just interesting to me and and that was part of the reason she was drawn to that part she kind of wanted to see where she was going to land things like that but it was uh it's really why i loved angels in the outfield you know well you always say it's not as serious though you get too serious Luke has to make a joke big he's working it out his heart is you know like how those deep fly balls with the help of the angels it's a lot of just eternal truth and but i but i it's just hard for us because when you produce this show everyone's like it's too dark for me i can't we get these emails from people that kind of like criticize us and attack us like you guys are in the you're going the wrong direction i'm like we started this show then in the wrong direction because the show is not changed come on this is what this this this kid Cameron Burnett the kid i told you about in spain listen to your show from texas and he loves your show he and his wife listen to it and these are believers and they love love love your show shout out to Cameron yeah shout out hey Cameron but i agree i just totally agree it's kind of a i feel uh lastly like this is kind of why i was put on this planet to be honest with you yeah and i believe and we'll see if this happens is that my brother and i have been put in a position to be one of those teams that makes the noise that were a couple things i'm working on now one of which i couldn't share with you guys could be a game changer for a lot of people and i believe with the success of the conjuring that that that gave me the the the car blosh to be approached to do these kind of films and the credibility to pull it off correctly um and i'm super excited about it i'm just it's i i was given a talent i know that yeah so lord it is my last thought again chuck chuck to last but i'll call you to call me Charles Charles that's the bible and a story of Saul you know in the bible he um you know he it's it's a witch doctor i think if you were to the disney version of christian christianity on church which would on sunday would like edit out that part i'll be like oh no we can't put that in i mean think about what they let go in the bible if it was a modern day script or if it was a modern day like sermon you know i'm saying it's like the bible has all this stuff that you know would get rid in the writers room now we got to take that out that's not okay right don't you think a lot of the stories we've been working with a lot of like uh kind of heavy hitters in the supernatural world of the bible and and real scholars i mean doctors that have written books on this stuff that are so knowledgeable about every little tangent and things that they talk about where the interpretation they leave it very little for interpret interpretive and it's more of educational because they pulled together different elements of the bible that prove this particular point is to why this occurred and and again because i've one of them has said there is no coincidence in the bible it's like the biggest matrix you've ever come across all intertwined so when you take those stories and we talk to these authorities and i'm realizing like wow we're really honest something here this is this is cool and what a better way to have church than through entertainment you know it's wonderful the truth was never scary and it was never a problem it was just it is what it was yeah indeed yeah well thank you i'm working our listeners uh follow along or get involved or send you hate mail what do you want hate mail um there's uh we we have a community called the haze whore community that they can join and doesn't cost anything um go on there and it's mostly focused on writers wanting to be in the industry but people share stories on there and stuff like that and then the other thing is we just started a website called first dash look dot net and as creators you go on there if you have really great stories and you're willing to put pen to paper you'll be able to post them on this website and filmmakers such as myself will be perusing those ideas to possibly um commission an option from you or if you're a writer get you to write it or or hey just write the screenplay and if it's interesting i'll read the screenplay so uh otherwise yeah we're on Facebook haze brothers and um that's it don't there's an Instagram i don't really do it um you know i'm really bad at all that stuff hey it's you're busy next chat this i mean this is fun because we've been talking about this for quite a while and i i stoked i honestly i really enjoyed this a lot yeah so do we make