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Yes, any of those items you do it. We've got your cravings covered. Now stop in for the flaky flay of fish, the crispy snack wrap or a large fries for just $2.99. Limited time only, price and participation may vary, cannot be combined with any other offer. Bada-ma-pa-pa. Hi, I'm Ira Fleto and this is Science Friday. We're sliding into your feed to tackle a slippery wintertime question about ice. Now ice is classified by scientists as a mineral, as long as it's naturally recurring. So ice in a snow bank or glacier, it's a mineral, it's a rock. So you may have wondered as you strapped on your ice skates or struggled down a frozen sidewalk, if ice is a rock, just why is ice slippery? There's been a common answer to that question. That feels a little bit slippery now. Why? Well, here to help with this is Dr. Robert Karpik. He studies tribology. That's the science of things like friction, wear, lubrication, and is the John Henry Town Professor in the Department of Mechanical Engineering and Applied Mechanics at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. Welcome back to Science Friday. Thank you so much, Ira. Great to be here. Nice to have you back. First, I got to ask you, what is the definition of tribology? Where does that originate from? It's a great question for quite some amount of time. Researchers in the area just call themselves friction engineers and friction and lubrication engineers and adhesion scientists. It was all a bit too many words. A scientist named Peter Joest in the United Kingdom decided in the 1960s we need a name for this field, and he proposed tribology. It comes from the Greek word tribos, which means rubbing or sliding. He did what any good Englishman would do. He asked the Oxford English Dictionary to give it their blessing, and they did. The word was born then, and that's how the field's been known. Although it's still not so widely known at term, so I appreciate you giving me a chance to promote it a bit. Yeah, we're giving it a little bit of attention here. Segueing into the next topic with tribology, we have been told, ever since I can remember, that ice itself is not really slippery. It's a thin layer of water on top that makes you slip, right? That's the idea, and it makes so much sense, because we know water is so much more slippery than just about anything that's solid. But there has been a great debate going back for centuries. Even Michael Faraday thought about this. The debate has been, well, there's probably something water or water like at the surface, but is it always there by itself? Does it appear because you're pressing on it? They call it pressure-induced melting at the surface. Is it because you're actually sliding? Frictional heating causes the ice to melt. Or is it something else? That's been the great debate. And it's not settled, but there has been some interesting new research very recently about this that I think has shed some new light on the question. Please, please, tell us what that is. Well, sure thing. There's a researcher at the Sarlin University in Germany, Martin Muser, it's his name and his colleagues. They did some very powerful computer simulations. And thanks to the stronger computer power and better algorithms we have now for simulating materials on a computer, their simulations are, I think, pretty reliable, a lot more so than what people did their best to come up with in years past. So it's a theoretical computational investigation, but in their simulations, they show a very unusual effect. They find that when you bring two ice surfaces together or just some other surface in contact with ice, the water molecules themselves, they respond to that. They can sense that this other surface has come close to them. And the reason they can sense it is that water molecules have a very strong electric dipole. When you look at a water molecule, the oxygen atom has more negative charge on it. The hydrogens, they have more positive charge. So you've got this separation of charges, and that's called a dipole. So if you bring two ice surfaces together or just some other surface that might have some dipoles, the water molecules rearrange. It's electrostatic forces that cause them to rearrange, and they go from being very ordered in a crystalline form like you have in a solid ice crystal to becoming very disordered and messy. And it's this disordered, or we call it an amorphous, layer on the surface that user and his colleagues claim forms, and that this layer is very soft and very slippery. That's what they say the key is. It's not pressure. It's not friction. It's sensing something in contact that causes this ordered set of molecules to become disordered. So that would say to me that it really doesn't matter how cold the ice is. We always say ice could be colder. It's harder, but there's no temperature involved here, it looks like. Well, that's right. And it's been seen that skiing works perfectly well at very cold temperatures minus 20 degrees Celsius, for example, you can still ski. So that was one of the mysteries. What these researchers show is, yep, you get this disordering happening even down to very low temperatures, but they do point something out. The colder you go, the less slippery that disordered layer becomes. You still get it. It's still going to reduce the friction, but it's not as good, but it's really slippery. You're getting closer to the melting temperature of ice. Okay, so this question is settled now, right? Oh, I doubt it is. I'm sure it's. I doubt it. Tell me why it's not. Oh, well, for one thing, scientists, we love to debate. And I think the researchers themselves say, you know, they need to do some more, some experimental testing, more validation. It's a hypothesis with support for the hypothesis from the computer simulations, but more work needs to be done to really validate it. Let me put your friction hat on and being an expert in friction. I know, for example, in skiing, you might want to wax your skis. How much of the slipperiness comes from the ice versus the surface of the thing in contact with, and why is the wax so important? What's there about the interaction at the surfaces of both those things? Yeah, again, I may sound like a little bit of a broken record, but there is still a debate about this. But we know a few things. One is, wax, as we know, is water repellent. So when you put it on top of the snow, and, well, according to this new theory, you would get this disordering of the water molecules and the ice molecules right at the surface. Well, those water molecules, they do not want to be close to that wax. They don't like it. They like each other better. They don't like the wax. That helps reduce the energy of interaction between the underside wax surface of the ski and the water beneath it. And when you have that kind of condition, water in contact with something it's not attracted to, well, you get low friction. You can slide very easily. Are the things you can do to predict or prevent things from sticking to each other like ice, prevent ice formation? Well, that's a key question that us tribologists wrestle with. Can we actually control friction and stickiness and adhesion? There's all sorts of applications where you want to do that. And I actually wanted to point out a really interesting study that just came out this past summer. This is the group of Professor Kevin Golovin and his co-workers at the University of Toronto. They came up with a way to detect if ice is forming on a surface. And they, in particular, point out this is really useful for airplanes and even things like UAVs, drones. If ice collects even on those small propeller wings of drones, it can cause them to crash. Well, they used a funny method called a triboelectric nanogenerator, T-E-N-G. What that does... Sounds like something back to the future, Rich. It really is. It almost, it comes almost out of Star Trek, you would think. Yeah. Well, what these triboelectric nanogenerators are cool devices, when you apply friction to them or other forces, they generate electricity. And Golovin and co-workers found a really neat use for them. They found that when water condenses on the surface of one of these nanogenerators and it freezes, there's a frozen front, a line between the liquid and the solid phase of the water and ice, right? And that line spreads out. So it's like that contact line, it's called spreads out across the surface. It's creating a little bit of friction and force on the nanogenerator. That creates some charge. The charge gives you a signal you can read and you can say, hey, look, ice is forming. And even better, the charge that is created can even be used to help melt the ice itself. So they are using it both as a detector to see if ice is forming and as a way to get rid of the ice once it's there. That is pretty cool. Speaking of ice and slipping, we're about a month out from the start of the Winter Olympics. And I know you're into curling, right? I am. That's got to be two surfaces, rock on ice. Are there science questions to be answered still there? You know, there are indeed. There has been a hot debate over the years as to what is it that makes a curling rock curl. And for anybody who doesn't know, in the sport of curling, when you throw that granite rock down the ice, you put a spin on it. And if you put a clockwise spin on it, the rock will move or we say curl to the right. And if it's a counterclockwise spin, it moves to the left. This lets you have some control over the final position of that curling stone. So you can hide a rock ultimately behind another one that's further up. Or you can knock a rock out that might look like it's hidden, protected behind another one. And this is why people call it chess on ice. Just a couple years ago, a researcher in Japan outfitted some curling stones with these high precision position sensors. And it's pretty interesting these sensors. He borrowed it from another research project. They'd been used for some high precision gravity measurement experiments and also for some optical alignment experiments from a high energy particle accelerator. So completely different use. He takes these things. He puts them on some curling stones. He takes them to Karui-Zawa Ice Park in Nagano. And then he just measures the motion of all of these curling stones. He's an athlete, an Olympic athlete to help them with this. And what he finds is by tracking the motion and doing some analysis, he can figure a bunch of things out, including how the friction force changes with speed. And how the motion of the curling rock changes. It's not just spinning around the same central point. The point about which it spins changes as it moves down the ice. So the summary of all this is he confirmed something people had proposed, but he measured much more precisely how friction between that granite rock and ice changes with speed. And it goes way down as the speed goes up. So friction drops like a rock, pardon the pun, as you increase the speed. And the thing that was new is they found it goes way up at the lowest speeds. Nobody ever seen that before. This combined with some other analysis they did does shed some new light on the problem. And I think that it could even be useful for athletes to plan how they might want to throw the rock based on these studies. So very cool study just came out a couple of years ago. So much to talk about. So great to have you. Thank you for taking time to be with us today. Thank you so much, Ira. Appreciate it. Have a good one and happy 2026. Thank you. Dr. Robert Karpick is the John Henry Town Professor in the Department of Mechanical Engineering and Applied Mechanics at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. Today's episode was produced by Charles Burquist. And if you have a slippery question, feel free to slide into our messages on social media or give us a call 877-4-Sci Fry. Thanks for listening. I'm Ira Fleto. If you dread dealing with your insurance company more than you dread being stuck in an elevator with a total stranger who's an oversharer, oh, being burrito for lunch, then you might have insuranoia. And if you have insuranoia, then you should have NJM. They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders. No jingles or mascots. Just great insurance. NJM. Insurance underwritten by NJM Insurance Company and its subsidiaries. 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