Love the Process with Cynthia Erivo

Whenever someone says, I want to be like you, and I go, I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be the very best version of you. So whoever you are meant to be is who you're meant to be. You just have to find out how to be the very best version of you. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Well, I haven't seen you in a while. I know. You're looking very rust. I dressed warmly because of our first guest, because I have so many goosebumps. I was going to get one to make sure I didn't stay warm. Well, we are in our new IMO studio listeners and viewers. Yeah. What do you guys think of the new digs? Huh? It's just it's a whole new setup. Now there's still going to be some changes. I understand this is just first week up getting ready for this series of tapings. So more to come, but it's really cool. I think our crew loves it. They got more space. They're not all squeezed up. Yes. And I jammed in some little room somewhere. Some dining room that we've been using. No, this is and you know, I've even had the benefit of seeing the space before it was ready. And it has really shaped up. And you know what I can really tell the sound, doesn't it sound good in here? Yeah, it sounds good. It sounds professional. Yes, it sounds very warm. It sounds like we're making inroads into the podcasting community. It feels like progress. It sounds like progress. But yeah, this is a big move. Really proud of the IMO team for, you know, me. We've really built a good year of shows. And you know, let's take a minute to just thank our listeners and our viewers for helping make IMO our first season a success. And we're just excited to keep it going. Right. We are. We are. It really feels like home now. IMO, when we're on the set, it feels like we belong here and we're doing some good work and helping folks and. Yeah. Well, we we are both excited. You talk about your your goosebumps. But we have got a great guest to help inaugurate our new studios. Yes. And we are both very excited. Yeah. And my sister is talking about Cynthia Arrivo, who is a Grammy Emmy and Tony award winning and three time Academy Award nominated actress, crazy singer, producer and now author. Because Cynthia will publish her next book, Simply More, a book for anyone who has been told they're too much, which how could anybody tell her that she's too much? Well, you all used to tell me I was too much all the time, which we're going to talk about that. See there. Okay, Cynthia, you hear hear what I'm going through. But her book is coming out November 19, 2025 via Flatiron Books. And Cynthia also stars in soon to come out wicked for good. Woo. November 21st. Stumps because wicked. Yes. That was well, we'll talk all about that. Yeah. We let's get let's get Cynthia out here. Cynthia, please come join us in the house. Hi, honey. Thank you for being here. How are you doing my friend? I'm good and good. Thank you for asking. How are you? I'm great. I am great. I'm just happy to see you in the flesh. Feels like I've been with you because you have been everywhere. Yeah, you're everywhere. A little bit nuts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I've been trying to make sure that I I am present whenever I go to places and do things, but it's been a really wonderful year of varied experiences. So any I feel like all the things I've wanted to do anything that's been on my bucket list, there are lots of things that have been able to take off. So we were talking when you arrived to the studio about the just briefly about the last time we were together, which was a little while ago. You were you were just a baby star. Still in the color festival on stage. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. It was the if I remember it was the United Nations summit in September was what year was it? Was it 2016? So it was our last one of our last gatherings and I would host the the spouses of the world leaders. And you know, we as a part of the I don't know entertainment of showing off our country. We decided to do some partnerships with Broadway. Yeah. And so a couple of the big shows at the time came and performed and Cynthia saying I am here. That's right. And killed it, killed it, left everybody in tears. But that was we got a chance to hug you. Yes. We still have that picture. I do too. Oh my goodness. I do too. I do. I do. Well, we're going to talk about a whole bunch of things. But I want to talk about your book. And I want to my first question is it just being so accomplished. What prompted you to write your book now as opposed to some other time? Like when you were 70. I knew that I wasn't going to be writing a biography necessarily because I didn't want it to be that because I do want to write that when I'm 70. Yes. That is for them. But I think I realized I had learned a lot up until this point. And I think I'd been writing so many speeches and giving speeches and they kept connecting with people that I thought I if I could find a place to just explain and share my thoughts and feelings and lessons that I've learned up to this point, that might be really helpful because it seems that when I put some of that and part some of that in the speeches, it connects. So I thought, well, if I can just put it in one place where everyone can have a listen, not just the people in the room, that way I can share a little bit of insight. Not necessarily a how to, but how I did. Yeah. That's what makes this project so special. Simply more. Because it isn't a memoir. It's really it's like getting a peek at your diary. Yes. Just sort of walking through your life and how you thought about things. And I think it's important for listeners and viewers to understand that this book is really, it can be a workbook in life. And I love the way at the ends of each chapter is that there's a question. There's a there's a message Craig noticed because he read the book too. That there's also poetry. Yes. Yeah. Which is just hearing your thought process, your creative thought process. Yes. It's really a beautiful sharing gift. Thank you. Thank you. And I wanted it to be that. I remember when I started, I knew that I wanted it to feel like something you could pass on to people. If you read it and you wanted to give a gift to someone and that it felt like a gift. And it's easy to digest, but it also makes you go back and go, actually, I do need to answer that question for myself. Or maybe I haven't thought about that question before, or maybe no one's asked me that question. And so I've put in things that maybe I haven't been asked, but have asked myself and have wanted to ask others. I am so opposite in the creative realm. I mean, I grew up in an athlete. And my family's creative. Misha's really creative. Yes. And we've talked about this like she when she was six years old, she used to write in a spiral notebook, short stories that would crack our family. Well, we got to find them because we. Well, we had them bound. And this is the trouble with, you know, living your life is the first family. There's so many moves and so much of our life was out of our control. I can't find the book now because it was bound with some of the stories. I think it got lost in one of the many, many moves. But yeah, but it was a high comedy. Like we would be sitting as a family and she'd be reading the story. My mom and dad would be laughing hysterically. And I would be more laughing at them laughing at her writing. Yes. I didn't really get it at the time. But that kind of creativity is it's just awe inspiring to me. And I think of it kind of like athletically. How do you practice? How do I practice? I think I will strangely enough, it's it's for me, it's like training. You do it. Often you continue to do it and you try and find ways to better it. You try and find ways to expand. I'm listening to others. I'm reading other things and reading other poetry. I'm, you know, taking in if it comes to TV and film. I'm looking at other actresses and I'm learning like educating myself. On what there is just so there's always inspiration. The well is never empty, you know. And I think that's what, because I understand what you mean as an athlete. Because I think of myself as an athlete as well. And I know that it takes training to get to the point that you want to get to. And I think that is applied to everything. If you, I always say, if I stop using my voice as to sing, it won't work for me anymore. So every day there's a little bit of singing. Every day I hum. Every day I do a scale. Every day I warm up. Just so that the next day, if I have to sing a song, my voice is already ready. Didn't have to. Yeah. And there's a love to live with you. Because then I would hear you singing all the time and being like, she's singing again. I think that's why I can't sing. Because if I could sing, I would be singing all the time for everyone. People say this, but you'd be surprised because you sing so much, because you have to sing. Sometimes those moments where it's silent, you just are. And it's quite, I have music going on in my head all the time. And so the quiet is quite nice when you don't have to. And your voice needs a rest sometimes, just like your body does. Yeah. But we were talking about my childhood and how much as you could hear, my family's support. I mean, when you get that positive feedback from the creative process, you just keep going. And that makes me think of your childhood. I mean, something that was just beautiful to read about was your amazing upbringing. And you heard the banter that we had about being too much. I mean, when you, in your book, you described how you have been described as sometimes too much, it was the same thing for me. Too loud, too bossy, too... And it was a joke in our family, but it was still this feeling of, well, I think I'm just fine. She was bossy. But so was I. Yeah. Were you? Exactly. I was. It was very bossy. Yeah, that's what Capricorn's, you know, and the other thing I read about what you said about Capricorn. I'm probably like you as a Capricorn. I don't necessarily buy into the, I shouldn't say buy in, I just don't focus on Zodiac and all that. But when I read about a Capricorn, I'm like, oh yeah, that is me. Write a lot. And other people being a little bit mad because you're right. And sometimes that's the too much. People don't necessarily like, well, because we're observers. We see a lot, we pay attention to it all, we listen and don't necessarily speak. If you're really paying attention to a Capricorn, you'll see what they're thinking on their face, because they won't necessarily say it out loud until it's necessary to say it out loud. And when they say it out loud, it's been thought about and usually it's right. There you go. I can't imagine. But you're upbringing. Yes, yeah. Yeah, let's get back to that. Tell us about South London. Stockwell. You know, I went back there a couple of days ago. Oh wow. I was in London. I was filming something and we had a bit of an afternoon off. And so as we were going from one set to another, we had lots of space in between, and which never happened. So I asked if we could drive past my old home in Stockwell. And we parked up for a little bit and just sat and watched and looked. And I talked about where I lived and what the place was like. And it was really wonderful actually. I lived in a little masonette. And what's a masonette? It's like a big historic building that's been converted into a set of flats. Just like council building, but they've converted it. And I lived with four other neighbors. One lived opposite and then the two lived downstairs. And then it was sort of connected to another building. And we all sort of lived together. If my mum needed help, then she'd go to Tyre, who was next door, or Sharon, or Clive downstairs. And we all sort of looked after each other. And I never felt too much with them. They all were so kind and sweet. And so there's this really wonderful sense of community within that building. And then within my home, my mum kind of knew before I did what I was going to do. And always just encouraged it. All she really wanted was for me to work as hard as I needed to get what I wanted. I don't think she ever... Nothing is a surprise to her. All of this isn't surprising to her at all. And she... Which is why she's sort of in her element currently, because she's sort of like, well, I knew something was going to happen. There was no choice. At 18 months in a baby book, she kept a baby book for myself and my sister. And it sort of marks milestones when I first started walking, when I first started speaking, when I first had literally solid food, anything. But also she put in there what she thought I would be. And at 18 months, she thought I would be a singer and a doctor, both. Wow. Singer and... Did she say what did she see in you at 18 months? She said she hums when she eats. On key. Hums when she eats will be a singer or doctor. Wow. Because I was also good at picking information up, and I would play right. And it might be scribble, but I was still really interested in work. And I still write in cursive. When did you start getting feeling these messages of you're too much? Because it wasn't happening in your... No, it was when I went to school. Yeah. When I went to school, I think first at primary school, towards the latter part of it, that's when I started feeling, oh, I guess this... I'm doing too much, I'm too loud, I'm too bossy, I talk too much, all of those things. Because I was never told I'd talk too much. My mum never told me that. My mum never told me not to ask questions. So I would ask all the questions and she would answer them. And I was always curious and I knew I had to answer them. I knew I had to cook by the time I was 11, because I was always in the kitchen with her, all of those things. So by the time I got to school, it was very odd because now all of a sudden, the things I had learned didn't make sense and people wanted less of it. And that's, I think, the first time that I thought, oh, I don't fit necessarily. But I think it was so stubborn that I didn't want to. I didn't try to. It's like I'm good. I'm fine. Yeah, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you people? Sounds familiar. You guys need to get your axe together. Yeah, why are you so insecure? Why aren't you doing more actually? Yeah, it was always when I was in a class, I remember there was a mathematics class I was in. And I didn't understand the equation that was being asked of us. So I just asked the question, I don't understand what this is, can you please explain it to me? I don't understand why this is happening here. And I just kept asking when I didn't understand. And so they moved me out of the class. What that meant was that I was falling behind because I wasn't able to be in the class that I was meant to be in. And all it was was that I was asking too many questions and she thought I was talking too much. This segment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, where progress isn't just in a brand's name. It's what they stand for because owning a home is just the beginning of the journey. You know, when I think about balancing a career and family and personal life, it reminds me of shifting from investment banking to coaching. I remember you and I talking about it and it took being organized, it took planning, it took courage. But most of all, I had to create a new sort of paradigm for me to live in using the tools that I had learned from banking. And it's just like when you're buying a new home, you have to plan, you have to shift gears. It helps you build a foundation for your family to build equity, for your family to build a future. What were some of the unexpected benefits and challenges of home ownership? Oh, yeah, the challenges are that the home belongs to you. It is yours. No longer do you have a superintendent you can call. When something breaks, you've got to know how to fix it. You've got to develop your own sort of cadre of support staff, a good plumber. Now, we both lived in condominiums. The beauty of the first condominium we bought was that it was a part of an association unlike you. So there was sort of a general management office that we could go to which helped us in that transition. But then when we went on to buy our first standalone home, we learned pretty fast that having a house is a big responsibility. You want to keep it nice. It's not just what's happening on the inside, but it's what's going on on the outside. Tuck pointing, all the unglamorous things like fixing your roof and mowing the lawn. But at the same time, you find that it's all worth it. You are making an investment in something that you will own. So all that hard work, what we learned was equity that was ours. We built that equity and it was ours to keep forever and ever. What about you? Well, I would echo everything you said, but one of the real benefits of having a condo was that we didn't have as much as you do with a regular home. So when you're a first-time home buyer, you're not bombarded with the lawn and the tuck pointing and refinishing the roof. Now, you paid an assessment to take care of that stuff. If I had to do all of that stuff, I would have been writing a check for every single thing, like you do when you own a home. But to your point about building equity, dad told me when we first were thinking about buying a home, he said, if I had bought a home earlier, I would have reached as far as I could and caught up to the payments. Buy more house than you can afford and you'll grow into it because that power of equity, that investment you talked about, was such a huge benefit to him at the age of 40, something when he first bought his place and to us when we were in our 20s. So staying in your home is just as important as getting in. And that means being prepared for what comes next. It's not always easy, but you don't have to do it alone. Progressive can help you navigate the complexities of home ownership. From helping you learn how to manage unexpected expenses to home maintenance tips, Progressive offers expert tools and resources not to mention homeowner insurance plans to help you stay steady and secure. With over $7 million invested in 2024 towards housing initiatives and new offerings like the up payment program, Progressive is committed to helping homeowners like you stay rooted and thrive for generations to come. Homeownership isn't about getting in the door, it's about protecting what you work so hard for. If you're looking for expert advice, financial tools, and the resources you need to maintain your home and your peace of mind, visit progressive.com slash open the house. Because when it comes to holding on to your home and everything it represents, Progressive Insurance is here to help you stay the course. So your mom saw that light in you. She very much did. In 18 months she wrote down the doctor singer. Yes. When did Cynthia know Cynthia was going to be that person? Because I think for a lot of young people, they don't have the confidence of pushing through that first level of rejection. Resistance, yeah. Resistance, however you want to put it. For you, when was that where you were like, oh, yeah, I'm good. Yeah, I had a couple of, there was, when I was five, it's interesting, I always start with this because it was so uncomplicated for me when I had that age. I'd been asked to sing Silent Night for an activity play. I was playing a shepherd, so I still to this day don't know why they asked me. And I think it's because I had the confidence to do it. That's, I don't know if even think they thought I had a great voice. I think I just wasn't shy. And I remember singing the song and I remember seeing smiling faces and I remember people clapping afterwards. And I knew and I understood that that was a measure of joy that people had experienced that came from me. And it was that clear. Okay, well, I want to keep doing that. Whatever that is that makes people joyous, respond in that way. I would like to continue doing it. I think it wasn't until I was about 11 that I really knew that I had something. I was really good at English and I was really creative and I was writing all these stories. I was singing on the playground and people kept asking me to sing. So I would sing with a couple of friends and we would be on the playground. It would be us and they would come and we could do little shows. And then I went to like a little, I guess it was like a forming arts sort of extracurricular short term thing. And we did a play and I remember being able to imagine everything around me. And that sort of was that moment where everything clicked. Oh, I'm good at this. This is what I meant to do. And that was at 11? That was about 11. But then you start to you explore it and think, well, how far can I go with all of it? And I've had different moments in my life where it's been reconfirmed. And even when I've had the little doubt, then it's been reconfirmed again. And one of those moments is when I had a strange moment when I was about 18 where I just stopped singing. I don't know what it was, but I had it was it's very hard to sort of get yourself into into the business. And I think I had, I think I had sort of lost a little bit of my spark. And my mom realized I wasn't singing and she just walked like walked past one day randomly. On the way to the kitchen and just said, I hope you're still singing. Didn't say anything else. You're still singing, aren't you? Well, I guess I guess I am. Because I think it was just the just the fact that she had noticed sort of woke me up that it wasn't just a thing that made everybody happy. It was something that made that made her happy too. It's something that connected with her parenting right there. She put some pressure on you. We call that jujitsu. It's like, you know, and you just bow and say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. What does it feel like to be so good? It's so many things because again, I come from the sport side and the male side. We're all dying to be the Michael Jordan or the Lionel Messi. We want to be the best of the best. And it's really no one can be. Because everyone's themselves. That's why. Say that again, please. No one can be Michael Jordan or Lionel Messi because they already exist. Michael Jordan exists. So does Lionel Messi. That is for them. What it is, and I have to say this a lot to younger people is that whenever someone says, I want to be like you. And I go, I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be the very best version of you. So whoever you are meant to be is who you're meant to be. You just have to find out how to be the very best version of you. Because I'm already me. I exist already. And I don't know. And I've never thought about being so good. I know, I know. Many things because I think I'm a constant. I'm like, yeah, I'm always learning. Can you talk a little bit about that process for you so that our listeners can get a feel of it? If you think of it like a mountain, but it's constantly growing. You can only see each peak from where you are. You think you've hit the top. Yes. And it's like, oh, there's another mountain. There's another one. And that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a mountain of difficulties. It's just another set of things that you have to learn. And you have to explore. So you get to that peak and you go, well, there is the choice to stay here. Because it would be quite nice. And the view is really lovely from here. I could just stay. I mean, it's beautiful here. I can stay here. It's delightful. The air's lovely. It's great. I can just be here. I've got my supplies. I really need to go anywhere. Got your thermos. However, yeah, my tea's still hot. It's great. However, what is up there? The choice is, can I stay here? Yes. Do I want to know what's up there? Yes. Well, then I have to scale it then. Yeah. And that's what it feels like. You can be good at any number of things. You can be better at any number of things. You can be amazing at any number of things. But that keeps going. I don't ever think you ever get to the real true peak. Because if you do, then what's the point? Then you have to stop. And I don't think I ever want to be the person that has learned everything and knows everything. Because then there's nothing left to learn. There's nothing left to explore, nothing left to find. And I'm constantly finding new things. I'm constantly rediscovering myself as a performer. I'm constantly learning new skills. My voice, for me, is one of those things that keeps proving to me that there's more to learn. So much of learning are these peaks of development and that require failure and learning and wisdom that there's no way you can have. You can't skip a step. No. And learning to find the joy in that process. That's the you get on. That's it. And that's what young people today, I'm just speaking to my son who happens to be here. You have to love the process. And I love it. I really do. It's clear. I really have found joy and enjoyment in the learning process. The doing is like the extra cherry on top. The bit before where I can figure things out. I'm learning and decide how do I, how am I going to do this? How did this work? Maybe I'll do it like that. Maybe I'll do this song here. I'll take this song apart. And that for me is where the creative process actually really lives. Because the thing that is complete is what comes from the creative process. Yeah. Right. And I'm sorry. I want to, and we can go back if I'm, because I'm changing gears a little bit because I'm thinking about this loving the process because I'm getting the vibe that you were coming up straight singing. And then now you switch over to drama and acting. And I wanted to hear about how that process. Or was that a switch? It wasn't a switch. It wasn't a switch. I loved acting. So my first sort of like taste of acting was when it was about 11. And then I started getting into like plays and school shows when I was about 15. But I just didn't know it was possible. Yeah. You hadn't seen it before. I hadn't seen it exactly. So I kept trying again when you don't have a, there's no playbook. There's no instruction booklet. There's no blueprint. So you don't really know how to even begin to go about it. And no one had mentioned drama school. At my school, to me. So I didn't even know it was an option. So I had, we had moved to South to East London by this point. And there was a really, there's a lovely theater, Stratford Theatre Royal that I used to go to. And then I ended up taking sort of like a part-time job there. And I worked in every possible spot you could think of. It was at the ticket sales. I was at Nasha. I was at the bar. Wherever you could find, I was there. And I started, as I was watching these plays and actors come in and out, I was really inspired by it. And I knew I wanted to do, I want to do that too. I want to do that. How can I? I remember I asked if I could audition for one of the plays that was going on the musical that was going on. I was told no. And it really, I was really upset because I was like, well, I know I can, I know I can. But I think it was important for me to experience that because it just pushed me to figure out how. They then had this sort of young actors company thing that they were doing that I discovered. And I was like, I want to do that. So I applied for that, got in. And I realized that when I, on the first day, sort of like the enrollment day, the first day we come in and you're meeting the teachers and meeting the tutors, the main tutor who was taking the course was a woman called Ray McKen who I'd met five years before. So I'm 20 now and I met her when I was 15 doing a youth group production of Romeo and Juliet at the Young Vic. And I had not seen her since then. And this was the first time I was seeing her. And she said, well, did you, have you applied, are you going to train? And I didn't know what she meant. What was that? I didn't know. I said to her. Because it was a path that was unknown to you. Completely unknown. I literally said to her, what do you mean? What, what does that mean? Why are you going to, you're going to go to drama school? What's drama school? That's a thing. What do you mean? Here's a school for acting. You can go to school for acting. You can go and train to be an actor. I said, huh, I didn't, I had no idea. So I think you should, I think you should train. I said, okay. I think you should go to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I said, she called it Rada. And I didn't know what that was. I said, what's Rada? She said, Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I said, no, I'm not going to get into the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. That sounds like I'm not going to get into that place. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not, I'm not going to get into it. Ray, Ray, I'm not going to get into it. Love you. I'm not going to love you. Love you so much. I'm not going to get in. I'm not going to do it. She said, well, if you don't apply, you can't do this course. Oh, that's a good one. Don't, don't try me with a challenge. Yes. Look, we clearly are figuring that out. Don't tell me I can't do something because then I'm going to. We're happy to team up with Progressive Insurance for this episode. Owning a home is a huge achievement, but staying in your home and maintaining it, that's where the real journey begins. From routine upkeep to financial planning and protecting what you've built, there's a lot to manage. Progressive Insurance is here with tools, tips, and resources to help you stay ready for whatever comes next. With $7 million committed in 2024 towards housing initiatives and continued support through new initiatives like the Uppayment Program, Progressive is not only opening the door to new home buyers, but also helping them plan for the long haul. And that reminds me, just recently, we had to get a new hot water heater after living in our place for eight years. Everything was fine, then one day out of the blue, bam, cold water only. You never know when you're going to need something as a homeowner. Maintaining your home starts with having the right support. Explore tools, tips, and resources at progressive.com slash open the house. Because home ownership isn't just about getting in, it's about staying in. So you get into Rata and it wasn't all smooth sailing. The story that you write about in the book is that people didn't appreciate your gift because it was a majority traditional white institution. And there were many microaggressions that you faced in the process. Can you talk a bit about that experience and how you persevered? Yeah, the very first one I faced was actually kind of immediate, which was so insane. I went there and just before I'd gotten into school to start the term, I got a job doing backing vocals for a group. And the reason I was excited about it, yes, it was lovely to go and do backing vocals with this group, but it also wasn't means to pay for the tuition outright. It would pay for the entire thing. And I asked for permission and she said, no, well, no, I don't think you can. I think it's either you go and do this job and you have to leave or you leave the job and you stay. That was the... That was the administrator's problem solving, helping a student. Meanwhile, there's another student in my year who is out for two weeks doing a play. Oh, no. Oh, the story. The story repeats itself again and again and again and again. So and so I... Oh, the hypocrisy. But then I spent the first year paying for it. Yeah. I then spent the first year being punished for that, for wanting to go and do that. Just even asking. For asking. Because then I go, well, okay, I need a job. I'm going to do a job part-time. But that part-time means I'm in school for Monday to Friday and I'm at work Saturday and Sunday. So by the time I come in on Monday, I'm exhausted and I'm falling and sleeping classes. And instead of someone going, are you okay? They go, she's not focused. She doesn't care. So we'll give her the smallest role and we'll just... We'll keep punishing for it. And it just... And it went on for so long. I was thought to be unfocused. And then when they thought I was focusing, we did like a musical. And they got the smallest role in the musical. And they knew I could sing. At this point, it wasn't like a... It wasn't a mystery. A mystery. I could sing. That was what I did. And it gets to one of those performing nights and then we find out in the daytime that two of the ladies are not very well. And so instead of saying, okay, you stay off, go home, you re-assign the roles, they were in and I was asked to sing for them. And I can't even be mad at the question because I think I just... And I think you can. But... That's mighty big of you. Yeah, but I think to this day, I'm still frustrated at the... I wish I had known to say no. Yeah. Right. You know? But the lesson in saying yes and doing it was that I would never do that again. I would never allow my voice to be given to someone else. To be given to someone else. And used that way. I would be in full control of how my voice is used. And who I use it with and when. That was a real lesson in sort of like self-confidence and advocating for oneself and knowing when to say actually no. Because when I asked about that, it was, well, we didn't think that you needed help, you were really efficient. Yes. And I was like, well, I would. I really hope that anyone who is efficient doesn't experience that because if they're good at what they do, they should be given the opportunity to be good at what they do. Well, this is the... For listeners, when you hear Black folks talk about needing to be twice as good, this is what... This is... Yeah. These are the experiences that are not uncommon to people of color all over the world. When someone has a preconceived notion of who we are based on difference. Your need to get through college, the way you had to do it to get through the program was different. Your needs were different. And this is why you have to have diverse faculty and administrators so that people can look... Someone go, oh, maybe she's... Like, I recognize what this student is going through. And I won't see it as a way, oh, you just want to be a backup singer. It's like, no, you're trying to eat. Yes. And if you don't have leadership that is diverse enough to be able to see themselves, then you wind up putting students and young people in a position to have to do twice as much to get through. And I want to take this moment because there are young people who will not assume, be people who loved you, see you on Wicked, they see you as Elphaba, they see you as beautiful. And it's important to know. It was not easy. It was not easy because there are microaggressions in the way. There are people who don't have full understanding of a broad set of experiences. And it makes it hard for people who are other. Yeah. I think the wonderful thing about being able to write this book is that I get to share that this was not a walk in the park, that this was not easy, that to get to this point today here, it has taken a lot. It's been a wonderfully crazy experiential journey of ups and downs that you couldn't imagine. I love the way you talk about how hard you work. I mean, and I think that that's a wonderful thing that you have laid out in your book because I, you know, we take, we see the end product of all the work. Yeah. So you make it to Broadway. You are in the color purple. You have blown it away. But the one thing you said, and I don't know whether it was in the book or I heard it on another conversation that you had, but how difficult it is for you to have embodied the role of Sealy. Yeah. Someone for, for how long were you on? It was 400 and I want to say like 480 something performances. It was 14 months. 14 months. And for people to understand Sealy's character was battered and bruised and told over and over again, night after night, exactly, that she was ugly, she was unworthy. Yeah. And you don't realize yet in order to personify that role, you have to take it in. Take it in. And that, that, that is a hard thing to do to the point where now even singing, I am here. I just don't do it very well. Can you talk a bit about that work, what that feels like? Because we see the other end of it. We see the performance and we see your career, but I didn't even think about what it takes to. Because I think people see actors as like you just put something on. Mm-hmm. It's like a costume. You put it on and then you do, you say the words and that's it. That's really 1% of what it is to really be able to, and this is what I believe, to really be able to. And I never like it when, when other actors are like just act, just you don't have to, none of you is in that, in the role. That's not true. Because you are literally the body of this person. You, your body has to take in the character of whoever it is and then give it to, to your watcher, to your viewer. And with Seely, she, she, I really, I love her. And I speak of her like in present tense because all of these characters, they, they are, to me, they're like people, they're like friends who I've met and I have some of, like distance, some are more present. She is this sort of spark of light who is constantly put down, beaten physically and mentally, told she's ugly, told she's not worth anything, abandoned, abandoned again, abandoned again. And we, I would do this night after night after night. And so after a while, your body doesn't know what that you're pretending. And so your body just finds a sort of short circuits, the way to get to wherever you need to get to. And so after like performance 200, 210 or something, I hear the word ugly and that's, it means, that's, it's me. I, I hear it because the, the line between myself and the character, it's so thin that it's almost non-existent because it, because that is the short circuit to the character. You have to be able to embody who they are and believe the things that are being said of you and, and really hear it so that the reaction is connected and real. And that goes for every single character. You sort of make a pact with yourself and the character that they are, they are allowed to live in you for as long as they need to until the project is done. The problem is after the project is done, how do you make space for yourself again? That can sometimes be really, really difficult. It takes, it takes time to, to sort of distill the character from yourself again and find out what your baseline is because you're still operating from the baseline of the character sometimes. Yeah, it takes a lot and sometimes it's, it's not just like a mental task. For me, it's very physical as well, depending on how much work needs to happen. It takes training. It takes, I just did a film called Kurochi and that was Samurai. And I was training every day for a month because that's all I had in order to get Samurai into my body. And Samurai has to be in your body, otherwise it doesn't read. And it is some of the hardest work I've ever done in, in my life just because it's a completely different way physicality that I haven't used before. And it's the same with flying as Alphabet. You have to get, your body has to get used to what it's like to be in a harness in the air when your weight is bearing down on a very thin piece of, of material, which is the harness, which is holding all of your weight. And you talk about the chafing, the, you know, the physical burning of your skin, of your skin as you were singing and flipping and flying at the same time. Yeah. And no one thinks of that. They're just thinking, Alphabet! Yeah. Oh, I'm so happy for you. And now I'm, oh, you know. You might have times when people are like, oh, I want to fly. It looks so fun. And I'm like, it's fun now because I know how to do it. But at the very beginning, there is a moment when you're in the air where it is not fun at all, where everything hurts. But if you're in the middle of a scene and you need to get to the end of the scene or the middle of a song, you need to get to the end of the song. The pain has to go somewhere else and you have to sing the song. So yes, it's fun to be in the air. But, but after hour 10, it's not so funny. Yeah. Well, I want to go back to the color purple quickly here because I heard that you said that you wanted that part in the worst. Yeah, I knew it. I knew I was supposed to be doing it. How did you know you were supposed to be doing it? I don't know. I don't know. I knew it was coming and just something said, you're supposed to do this. OK. I was so sure. If you asked me what made me sure, to this day, I cannot tell you. I don't know. I just knew that it was meant to be the thing I was supposed to be doing. I did not know that it was going to Broadway. I did not know what was coming afterwards. I just knew there was a small little play, a musical, coming to this tiny little theater that held only 200 people and I wanted to do it. It didn't matter what it was paying. It didn't matter where it was. I knew that this was the production I was supposed to be a part of and I was meant to be doing it. As clear as day. Someone said, would you play another character? No, I know it's supposed to be silly. And you talk about the feeling when you sing the I am here. And feeling the audience's reaction. It's sort of going back to Silent Night, The Shepherd. Can you talk about that a bit? What it feels like to use your physical self and be able to move people in that way. It's a real out of body but really organic feeling. It's kind of like flying. Everything sort of feels like it's connected. When you can feel the audience as it's happening, it's like the truest magic you can possibly imagine. I'm here was one of those moments where you could feel the audience take a breath, like breathe with you. Because up until that point, you can feel the tension in the air because you want her to get to a place where she can say it, where she can do that. And it takes so much, which is why I don't sing it very often. Because I don't think that the song is a party trick. I think it is the culmination of a journey that this character has had to be on to get to this point. And I feel like you can't... You talk about you have to earn it. Yeah, I don't feel that you can truthfully do that song unless you know the journey that the character has been on. That's not I am here. Exactly. I'm here. And me, I'm me, I'm here. That's right. And so when people use it just because they want to sing it, it always feels a little false to me because I'm sort of like, I don't know. Because you were Sealy. Yeah. And it's like, you didn't live my life. Right. Now, did you feel this? I know, I don't care. No, no, no, no, no, go ahead. Did you feel the same way about Elphaba as you did about Sealy, that you knew that this was for me? Like... I think I was so frightened of admitting it because I knew so many people were going up for it. But in my heart of hearts, I knew that I got this woman. I understood this woman. I knew that one. If it wasn't going to be anyone else, you know, it wasn't... There was no other character that I wanted to play in this piece and it would have been, it was this. It was Elphaba. Can you help us understand the feeling you had when they called you up and said, Cynthia, you got the job. I don't even think I had any words. I think I just cried and said, thank you so much. And that was, I was just sobbing into my arms. I just... Because I think what I had realized maybe at that point is that actually to get to Elphaba was a really long journey. I had been learning her, I had been learning... Unbeknownst to me, I didn't realize it was happening, but I had been learning this character for a really long time. I knew the songs back to front before I had seen the show. So I knew the songs, I connected with the songs, I understood those songs. And then I went to see the show and thought, oh my gosh, I really... There's something. And then I've been asked to do concerts of this and I do... Like it just kept coming up. It kept coming to me. And then to be asked to come and audition was... I knew I wasn't going to leave anything unsaid or anything in the tank. So I let it all go when I was in that audition room. So to get that call was... I really do think it... Well, it did change my life, truly. And I'll never forget the feeling of sort of amazement and speechlessness that happened that day. So I just... I was so grateful and I think there was like a measure of disbelief that something like this had happened and could happen. It's like a dream, a real dream role was in my lap. And just a dream experience because it's ending so well. I mean, you can put all that work into any piece of art and it's not received in the way... You would have done this no matter what. I think I heard you say that in an interview. You would have put just as much energy into the role, but to have it be so well received by the public, people of all ages. Yeah. What do you think it is about, wicked about the particular adaptation of it, your performance, Ariana's performance that has resonated? I think it's the humanity. I think it's the humanity in it. I think as much as it's this sort of fantastical, magical world, that it's deeply rooted in humanity. Each of these characters has a humanness to them. They all have a want, they all have a hurt, a pain, and especially Alphaba who... And it's so openly on show. She's so very vulnerable that I think people connect to that, they connect to this otherness that she feels, this oddity. Starting at birth. Yeah, from the beginning. And I think to be able to watch it play out in front of you, sort of validates anyone who feels that way. That you're not... This is not something you're imagining. It actually is true. And look at it. Watch it happening to someone else. Watch it happening to someone. And that someone happens to have my face. And I think that adds to the idea that, oh, well, if she is the one behind the face of this character, then it opens the doors to the experience of the person who's playing it as well. And I think the connection to the people and the characters and what everyone else's experience is, has, I think, really exploded this out and open for people. The stories I've had, the connections, the people who have told me what they've been through, how this has moved them. I could be here till the end of the year if I was to tell you all of the stories. And it's really, really amazing. So what are you most excited about for the next installment now? The thing I'm most excited about for the next installment is the growth. They're not in school anymore. They're really grown. And I've seen it. I'm really proud of the progression. These are grown women. And I think I can't wait for people to experience Alphaba as someone who's really in her power and having to deal with what the decision that she's made. And she does. It's not easy for her, but I think there's something quite wonderful about the way she moves through the space now. She's not apologetic at all. It's kind of wonderful. Was anything changed for the movie? A couple of things. But maybe not changed, maybe expanded. We just opened up a little bit more. The love story between Fiero and Alphaba, that's been expanded. So you can see it more. You can understand it more. It doesn't just happen in one song because you don't have the time on a stage to do all of that. You get to learn a bit more about where. Because in the show, Alphaba just goes away for a large majority of the second act. And in this, you sort of see where she's been. And you're with her for a little bit. And then she sort of goes away. And I think there's something really lovely about being able to see what wild she's created for herself. So that's a little bit different. It's just the expansion of what we know. I'm very excited. And let me just tell you, I have a family who are musical cynics. You know, I have a song who are like, oh, I want you to break out in the song, everybody to a T, balling, crying, connected in this way. So I mean, kudos. And I have an answer for you on that because I've heard that answer. I've heard that question before. When do people break out in the song all the time? I know. People break out in the song all the time. I am a musical girl. People start singing or humming all the time. If you really pay attention, you'll realize that people do it every day. And we all have a soundtrack to our lives. I know. I do. I do everything to music. Yes. You put those headphones on. And it's like it gets me ready. I see myself. it's like... It's it... That's what it is. And I think people get so... For some reason there's this interesting disconnect when you go to a theatre like... And it actually happens. Why are you singing out in public? Well because we always do. We actually always do and we have a connection to music and music is... And more so... The musical is where you can go to really heighten one's sense of emotion. Music happens when there's nothing else, when you can't say anything else. We can't say anything else. And often the song that gets sung is the thing that the person doesn't want anyone to see. So it's the innermost thoughts of whoever is performing. Oh I love the way you explain that. It's that. So take that musical cynics. There's a place for it and it's very important. There's a place. Going to see more of it. I think my sister is shooting a shot across my bow with that. No, no. There have been others. There have been others. Before you leave this table and we move on to other things, I just want to tell you how proud I am of how you are showing up in the world. As your true authentic self. Thank you very much. Which is I know a part of that peaking that you had to. And I would love to have you just talk a bit before we go about how you've managed seeing all of yourself. Because I know that there are young people out here who are looking and listening. And I just want you to talk a bit about that journey. The beginning of the journey of trying to be yourself. It takes like trial and error. You really have to be okay with making mistakes and discovering and not quite being comfortable with something and acknowledging when it's not quite comfortable and changing and shifting and being able to distill the noise that other people tell you about who and what and how you're supposed to be to find out what you need for yourself. And as I've been doing that slowly, I've sort of been finding little pieces. It's like treasure hunting. Finding the things that make sense to me. That's what I want to do. Even like nails. There's something I've been doing since I was 16 years old. And I wanted to check myself. Like am I just saying that? No, I went back to a picture of me when I'm 16 and I have nails. And they are not as long, but they definitely are. They said I've been doing my nails. They're done. Yeah, they're done. And I realized that that's just something that makes me feel like I'm done. If I don't have a lick of makeup on, but I have my nails done, I feel like I'm done. So that's just something that's like a, I don't know, it's not, it's a part of who I am. It's something that tells a story. It's another canvas for someone else to create, but it's also a way to express stories. And it's the same with it. My, I shaved my head, but I've been making my, getting my hair shorter and shorter and shorter at this point since I was 23. And I, I knew it was because I just wanted people to see my face. That I had this obsession with being able to just show up. Like nothing, nothing hiding anything or just everything on show. And it got progressively shorter and shorter and shorter. And when I got to wicked, my scalp needed to be green. Someone said, well, I thought that was sort of CGI. No, my actual scalp underneath the wig is green. And the only way I could do that is if I shaved my head. So I shaved my head and that green is on my scalp. But when I took the wig off and the makeup off, I really liked what I saw. Yeah, there you go. So I just stuck with it. And at first I would have someone else help me shave it. And then I was just like, just teach me how to do it. I'll do it myself. So I shaved my head myself. Welcome to the club. Thank you. And so all it is is this sort of culmination of all the things that have been, that have been who I am for a really long time. And people have started to sort of accept they're not changing. They just are what they are. And they're a part of her. And I've just wholly accepted all of those things and who I am. Because I think they make me who I am comfortable as that person. So I was saying to my makeup artist, Joanna, today, I think sometimes people look at me and think I've put, like I might be, and there was a moment where I think people thought I was putting it on as costume. But now I think people are realizing, oh, it's not costume. It's just how she is every single day. When you meet me in the street and I've got no makeup on, I'm still the same. I still have blows of piercings in the store with my nails done. It's not, you're not meeting another person completely. It's just, that's how I exist. And I've gotten to a place where I like to just exist as me. So when you meet me on a red carpet, we meet me in the street, the not two different people, it's one person. It's that part. It just happens to be wearing different clothes. It's easier to keep up with. Oh my gosh. You know, it's like, isn't it easier to be able to show up as yourself every single place? You don't have to remember the person you told them you were. You were. It's so lovely. It is the key to authenticity. Yes. When people say you're so authentic and it's like, no, absolutely. This is exactly who I am. And we are ready for our question from our listener. Okay. I'm Michelle and Craig. My question is about how to find balance. I have a busy job. I'm very close with my family. I work to keep a close group of friends and I try to date when I can. But something I've been struggling with for a while is that I really want to have more of a creative life. I've always loved to paint and write and I want to make those elements into something bigger in my life. But I find myself feeling like there are truly not enough hours in the day to stay on top of all of my obligations and also build a space for me to focus on my art. I'm now in my mid 30s and starting to panic that if I don't figure out a sustainable way to have a creative life, I'm going to lose this part of myself. How do you create that space for yourself to do what you really want to do day to day, especially when you're very busy or torn between a lot of different responsibilities? Courtney in Portland. Hello, Courtney. I have a couple thoughts about this. I feel that there's an organizational problem going on, so like scheduling. And it sounds like you're spreading yourself thin for everybody else and not really making any time for yourself. So I would maybe sometimes say, hey, I can't come to this thing that you want me to come to because I'm going to be working on something for myself. And I think it sounds like not wanting to let other people down or not wanting to say no to other people, which is really tough, but it's really great in the end. It will actually, I think it will help Courtney, you Courtney. If sometimes those family obligations and those friend obligations don't have you at them, maybe sometimes you don't go to those things and that you take those times when you're not at those things to care for yourself and to pour into the thing that you love. Because if you're five years away from now, if you head away from this moment five years away from when you look back and you go, I didn't make any time for myself or what do I have to show for it? But everyone else seems to be really, really happy around me. You'll regret it. Whereas if you spend the time now on the things you love for yourself, you will actually be better for the people around you. You will actually be a better person, a more joyous person, a more satisfied person for the folks that you love. And they probably will enjoy that version of you more too. And it's a particularly good, important question in this day and age when time alone is almost like the enemy with social media and phones and video games. The one thing I had growing up as a child that really encouraged my creativity was a lot of time alone. When we grew up, you had seven TV channels and kids TV ended at noon. And it didn't start until three. There weren't a lot of artificial distractions. The beauty of that is that it gives you time to be bored, to let your mind quiet, to have something to fill up. And that's where creativity happens. When I'm six and I pick up a spiral notebook to start writing my first story, a lot of that was because I didn't have anything to do. And no one, my mother was not trying to fill my time. She was like, go play, go figure out something. Nothing is scheduled. It's the summer you got all day. And you've played enough. Your brother's sick of you. Your big brother doesn't want to play with you anymore. And you think there are things in my head. I'm thinking I'm daydreaming. I'm letting things happen for me. That's where creativity happens. And if we don't allow for that, because we are constantly filling up every second of our time, taking in a TikTok video or listening to someone else, forget even. Like if we got off of our phones and got comfortable with silence and aloneness, that is the space where creativity comes. So I would say to Courtney, I'd also ask her to think about- The times when she's filling the time when she doesn't need to. That's right. And is she allowing herself spaces of quiet and aloneness? Yeah. So Courtney, I hope you're picking this up. It sounds like you have to do something that's a little counterintuitive. Be a little bit more selfish in order to be better for everyone else. And Tamisha's point, be comfortable being by yourself. Yeah. Let the creative give yourself time for the creativity to happen. Well, this has been wonderful. It's been a delight. Gosh, congratulations on everything. Thank you. So many things. Simply more. Yeah. I'm so proud of that. Wicked for the good. I mean, your album, You Should Be. Thank you. You should absolutely. It's a beautiful book. Thank you. There is more in it. All of this is in it, but lots of wonderful lessons. We get to know you in a very powerful way. Thank you. And it's going to help some folks. So this is the time, holidays, when you go see Wicked for Good pick up. Simply more. And give it to somebody that you love as a gift. And come back and see us. I will. I will. I promise. You're busy, but we'll be watching. Watching and cheering you on. This will be one of my stops. I'll always come back. This will be your I am Mo home. I'm coming. I'll be back. I promise. And I don't break my promises. Yeah. I'll be thanking you for this. Thank you. Love you much. Love you too. Thanks again to our friends at Progressive Insurance for sponsoring this episode. For more information, visit progressive.com slash open the house.