EP.270 - REBECCA LUCY TAYLOR AKA SELF ESTEEM

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening.

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I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton.

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I'm a man.

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I want you to enjoy this.

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That's the plan.

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Hey, hey, how you doing, podcats? It's Adam Buxton here. Now, you may be able to hear that I am not on my usual Norfolk farm track. Rosie is at home in Norfolk. I am in Haggerston park in East London. It's a beautiful morning on the very first day of May 2026. I've just been shat on by a bird so much. I was on my bike and I went under some trees and I did feel something plop a little bit and I thought, oh, it's just a branch. Wasn't a branch, it was a direct hit. Got me on the top of my fleece, on the sleeve of my jacket. There's a big old blob on my

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shorts that I just discovered.

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Anyway, very effective work from the East London Birds. They sound nice, but they will absolutely shit on you if you give them half a chance. Anyway, good to be here in beautiful London town. I was here yesterday filming a promo for my show Successpod, my Audible show, which I now think is going to make its debut in early June rather than this month. Later today I'm getting a train to Liverpool for the first night of my tour with the Adam Buxton Band. We will, in case you haven't got the message by now, be playing a selection of songs, mainly funny, from my album Buckle up, plus a few covers that are close to my heart. And we'll be at Liverpool's Tongue Auditorium tonight. If you are listening to this podcast the day that it drops, come and join us. We're on stage at 9pm still some tickets left. We also have support from sonorous voiced songstress. Hope that's not an offensive description of Anna B. Savage, very talented musician who I'm delighted is supporting us for our shows in Leeds, Exeter, Cardiff and Bath. There's a link in the description of today's episode for dates and tickets. Hope that you can make it along. Come and say hi. I'll be hanging out afterwards, signing bits and pieces, I think. And there's news of a couple of other live shows that I'm doing at the end of today's podcast. But right now let me tell you a bit about episode number 270, which features a delicious helping of waffle with musician, actor and Writer Rebecca Lucy Taylor, aka Self Esteem Esteem Facts Rebecca was born in 1986 in the English market town of Rotherham, South Yorkshire, where her mother worked as a secretary and her father worked by day in the health and safety department of a steel works and by night sometimes played in a local band. In 2006, aged 20, Rebecca formed the band Slow Club with Charles Watson and over the next 10 years they released a series of critically acclaimed albums featuring heartfelt lo fi, indie, retro soul pop, power folk. Rebecca began using the alter ego self esteem around 2015 for a variety of artistic projects, including an exhibition of paintings and prints and short films. She's an artist in all sorts of different ways. In 2017 she released her first music under the Self Esteem moniker, the your Wife ep, which set out the stall for Rebecca's unique blend of classy art pop and self lacerating lyrics that dealt unflinchingly with modern relationships, self love, Self loathing and yep, Self Esteem. The first full Self Esteem album, Compliments Please was released in 2019 and that was followed a couple of years later by Prioritize Pleasure, which featured the single I Do this all the Time, a mostly spoken word track often compared to Baz Luhrmann's Everybody's Free to Wear Sunscreen that was named by the Guardian as the best song of 2021. There's a link to a few Self Esteem tracks, including that one in the description of today's episode. In 2022, Prioritize Pleasure was nominated for the Mercury Prize, an annual award for the best album released by a UK or Irish artist. But it was last year, 2025, after her third studio album, a Complicated Woman, was released, that she would win the Ivan Ovello's Visionary Award and Ivan Ovello, it's the Oscar of the music writing world. Back in 2023, Rebecca debuted on the West End stage in the smash hit production of Cabaret, where she performed the lead role of Sally Bow opposite Scissor Sisters Jake Shears as the Kit Kat Club's MC. Earlier this year, 2026, she returned to the West End, starring in and writing additional music for an adaptation of David Hare's 1975 play Teeth and Smiles at the Duke of York Theatre, and as I speak, that production is still running. I think it ends in early June. Rebecca plays Maggie Frisby, once the roaring voice of 60s counterculture but is now broken, disillusioned, tearing through the night, fueled by booze, fury and a voice that refuses to die. My conversation with Rebecca was recorded face to face in London back in late June of last year, 2025, and there was a definite theme of ambition that ran throughout why Ambition Sometimes Feels Like a Dirty Word. We talked about the challenges of being a parent of someone in a band, especially if you're a musician too. Talked about her experience of doing cabaret as well as her experiences writing prioritized pleasure in her parents home during the lockdown, and how that compared to writing A Complicated Woman four years later. When we spoke, Rebecca had also just finished writing a book, also called A Complicated Woman, that was published in October 2025 and that brought together notes and lyrics, journal entries and observations on life as a woman, a woman in the 21st century. We also talked about why men love CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. That's the highly structured, often short term and goal oriented form of psychotherapy that focuses on changing unhelpful thinking patterns, emotions and behaviours. Also, because our conversation was recorded a few days before 2025's Glastonbury Festival, we talked briefly about how musicians in the public eye at that time were often expected to supply an opinion about whether the Irish band Kneecap should be allowed to play Glastonbury following allegations that one of the band had shouted support for Hamas and Hezbollah at a previous show. But we began by reminiscing about the episode of the Great British Bake off for Stand up to Cancer that we competed in together. And I also talked about my only other TV appearance in a while on the UK quiz show House of Games, where winners of each day, if you're not familiar with the show, get a House of Games themed prize. Tim Key, I know, Treasures his wheelie bag with the House of Games logo on it. Anyway, it was because of all the spoilers in that part of the conversation that I wasn't able to put this episode out sooner, which is a bit thick of me and I apologize. I didn't get any threatening messages from Richard Osman, the show's creator and host. Actor Michael Sheen has since taken over as host, but I knew that if I blabbed on my podcast about the outcome of the show before it had aired, it would not be cool. Yeah, hello bird. Beautiful Big Magpie has just come and sat on the fence by the little pond next to which I'm standing. Okay, I'll be back at the end to tell you about those live shows, but right now with Rebecca Lucy Taylor, AKA Self Esteem, Here we go.

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Ramble chat. Let's have a ramble chat.

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We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that hat.

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Come on let's chew the bat and have a ramble chat.

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Put on your conversation coat and write your talking hat.

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There was an article in the Mail online after Bake off went out and the headline was something like, viewers appalled by the most shocking and disgusting creation ever on Bake Off. And they had a picture of the sort of limp banana that was supposed to be my alien covered in bits of cherry juice. It did look. It did look very sick.

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That was like being on the Mercury Preysler again for me because everyone was like. I was a bit like, I'm, you know, I'm the underdog because I was a replacement. So I hadn't practiced and I can't remember if. I don't know if you remember me going on about that, but no, I don't. I thought everyone knew. And then I did, like, so well in that second challenge. You were great. So then all the producers and stuff were going, like, might be you. You know, might be you. I went back to my trailer and like, text meh mates, group goats.

10:05

Yeah.

10:29

I was like, I might be in with Chauncey a lot. And then hopes were dashed, you know, just like.

10:29

Well, they were dashed by Mira Sayal, who was in another league. Really?

10:35

Oh, yeah, it was totally fair enough. But if I ever go on again, make something you can make delicious flavor wise, because that's how she pipped us.

10:39

It was too much on the day. It was. I sort of knew in the abstract that it would be like that.

10:47

Yeah.

10:53

That practicing at home is never going to be the same as being in a TV studio with cameras and stuff.

10:54

Why do you think you went wrong?

10:59

Well, I went wrong with the dough. There was something weird happening with the dough. And then Paul Hollywood came and stuck his finger in it at one point and just gave it a look like, oh, you're fucked, and then wandered off.

11:01

It made fantastic television.

11:16

I never actually watched it. Did you watch the show?

11:18

Yeah.

11:20

Okay.

11:21

It's really funny. I mean, it should get a bafta, should get a nod just for the highs and lows.

11:21

You were so kind to me because I was genuinely freaking out.

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I was worried about you.

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Did you. Did I look like I was in

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trouble because I love you? And I was like, oh, no, he's really gone quiet. Yeah, but you did really well.

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I was gutted.

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Were you?

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Yeah, because I was so sure I was gonna nail it.

11:44

Did you. Do you have therapy?

11:48

I haven't had any since then, but I'm due for some.

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Yeah.

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And I will. It'll be mainly Bake Off.

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I Did feel like I cared about it so much. I was like, why? But it was fun to sort of. There's life in the old dog. Yeah. Like, I'm still care about something. I still want to win, still want to try hard. I felt like 12 years old again. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, horrible, but nice.

11:56

I feel like you're. We're both fairly ambitious people, don't you think? Like, but we're part of our mania, if I can characterize it like that, is that we know that it's not necessarily an attractive quality or not for me, it's not a quality I like seeing in other people. Like, someone who's super eager to win or super competitive or anything. I don't think I'm totally over the top, but it feels weird. And I went on House of Games the other day, and I really tried hard on that.

12:12

How did it go? Can you say?

12:40

Well, I smashed it.

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Good boy. Nice.

12:44

And the thing is that

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it was

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such a weird feeling because I've never, ever done that before. I've never won at anything that I can think of. If it's a competitive environment, usually I try to avoid anything. I've never been a sport guy or anything, but I won. The first day. It was very close. It was quite. It wasn't like a total walkover. Everyone else was good on it. And then the second day, I won because I suddenly felt, like, relaxed because I won the first one, and that's all I wanted to do. I just wanted to win one and bring home something for our friend Janice, who loves the show. And she was like, oh, my God, if you win, can you bring me back? I said, sure, I'll do my best. So I won something for Janice, and then I just chilled right out, and then everything was fine. It's like, oh, this is what you have to do. You have to just relax and everything works.

12:49

Did you win every day, then?

13:41

Every day.

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And then I started feeling. I started feeling weird because then, you know, Richard Osmond starts saying, well, Adam's the one to beat. Can today be the day the tide turns? He's good at answer smash, but will he be caught up? And I started to realize that I was. It was such a weird position to be in, and I felt like a

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bit of a dick.

14:07

Did you share any prizes?

14:08

Yeah, I shared.

14:09

Yeah.

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Shared three prizes.

14:10

Yeah, exactly. It's fine if you do that. It's fine.

14:12

Yeah.

14:13

I shared a prize with Legend from Gladiators.

14:14

Oh, okay. What did Legend want? A cake of Course, that's what the gladiators dream of.

14:17

Who else was on when you were on?

14:26

I was on with Hamed Animashaun, who's in a show called Black Ops.

14:28

Okay.

14:33

Comedy show, Funny Guy. Lisa Snowden.

14:34

Wow.

14:38

The presenter. Yeah, yeah. And a comedian, an actor called Lorna Watson, who I have worked with before. She was good. She gave me some trouble because she was more my age.

14:38

Right.

14:50

That's the thing, is the older people just do better.

14:50

They do. It's really annoying. It's really annoying.

14:52

Yeah.

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It's flawed.

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And then, like, what do you do as an older person? You feel kind of like you should, especially if you've got kids, you know, that you. You don't want to be competitive, just surging ahead. You want to back off and give everyone else a chance. But then I was like, I'm not. I've got to go for it.

14:56

That's really funny.

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Especially after Bake off and.

15:16

Well, exactly. Don't worry about it, you know. Ambition, isn't it?

15:17

No, it's not dirty. I've been reading Eric Idle's memoirs because I'm hoping to speak to him on the podcast.

15:21

Wow. Really?

15:26

Yeah. And he moved out to Los Angeles at a certain point because he got so fed up with the sort of critical tone of the UK and everything being so down and I don't know what. And so he likes it out in LA with all everyone being positive. And then he goes and does spam a lot in the sort of later stage of his career when he's in his 60s and it's a huge hit, everyone's winning Tony Awards left, right and center, and he has the same thing. He feels like a little bit of an imposter, or a bit like he doesn't deserve it, or he's getting successful off the back of the other Pythons work or. There's so many ways that you can spin a success.

15:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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To turn it into something bad.

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Just be really good and that's it.

16:10

Are you like that, though? Are you?

16:12

Yeah. I mean, for years it felt like when I was in a band and stuff, like, it wasn't cool to be ambitious, which, like, infiltrated me quite badly. Like, I was really, like, stupid me for wanting that. And then.

16:14

Where did you get that vibe from, though?

16:29

Indie music, in that time, you had to look like you didn't care. But then people were making huge careers while still looking like they didn't care, which. Which I could never do. Like, I love working hard and trying hard, and I didn't fit in, you know. But then it. I recently found out everyone did want to sort of get bigger, but they, you know, it was hard. It's hard. I like self esteem is definitely like. I literally saw like Drag Race and Red Light, Madonna's book. And then I was like, I'm being rewarded for being brilliant. Isn't. Is. Isn't bad. And I thought like, I can't, I can't. Like I shut myself up so much for years. I was like, I've got to go and do it.

16:31

Was that you always though, was that person always waiting to get out and you got accidentally sucked into a cool indie band? Yeah, right.

17:13

Massively. I tried to get into drama school, didn't get in. So I was interested in that and I was interested in. I loved music. I love like indie music because I'm big bandhead. I'd go to gigs and I was always. I had a band at school and stuff. So it really could have just gone down either way.

17:21

What did you play in the band?

17:37

I sang. Play guitar, Play the drums sometimes.

17:39

And did you write your own songs or were you doing covers?

17:42

The first band?

17:44

Yeah.

17:44

Oh, it was a dreadful mix of original originals and Damien Rice covers.

17:45

Okay.

17:51

Smith's covers.

17:52

Nice.

17:53

We did There's a Lie I'll Never Go out and I over sang that. We did Take Me Out Tonight.

17:53

How would you do it?

18:03

I can't but imagine that 18 year old girl with an asymmetrical fringe and a David Bowie T shirt on flares.

18:04

Sounds cool.

18:10

Really going for it. One of the show suppers we had was. What's the Beatles song? Come Together.

18:11

Oh yeah.

18:19

Long drawn out come together with me being like really bluesy, very cool. That would have been horrible. But we used to play at this venue called the Boardwalk in Sheffield and you made a door split. So that was my high school band we would do these sets with and two originals which I was writing about the guy who played guitar. Oh well, so dramatic. But we used to get so many people down from school that we'd make. I remember making 70 quid once. I was like brilliant. I've never made any more money in music since then. It was a lot better odds actually before I got into it professionally. So it was still ambitious then. But then when I was in the band Sloan Club and we. And we toured and we, you know, we were so young when we started.

18:20

How old were you?

19:04

Like 16. Like really? Yeah, yeah. So 16, 17. We were like just playing in Sheffield and then we got offered a tour of the bar flights. Can you remember bar flights?

19:05

Yeah.

19:14

I remember thinking like, here we go, this is it. So I didn't go. I didn't go to uni because we had this tour and then, then that's. That's. The rest is history.

19:14

You didn't go to uni? How did that go down with your folks?

19:24

Quite sweetly. Right, there's. My dad was in a band when he met my mum. Mum and dad are really like quiet people. They both love music. My dad's like really into bands. Really into like Prague.

19:28

Yeah, Your dad's like Jennifer Beale in Flashdance. He was a steel worker by day and a musician by night.

19:37

He was. He didn't work. He wasn't steelworker.

19:45

Was he not.

19:48

But, you know, it's like the Times, I think, printed that and I really ran with it since my mum's like. He worked in the Health and Safe Safety department actually now.

19:49

Now.

19:57

So my dad has got like a way cooler narrative.

19:57

Maybe he worked in Health and Safety, but I bet he was sweaty and bare chested all day and probably had a hammer on his tool belt.

19:59

It's a better story. But no, he was just in the office. But yeah, he'd come home. He's like an amazing Prague keyboard player. Like John Lord, like his like, idol or whatever.

20:07

Oh, yeah.

20:17

But yeah, you know, we're close family. But there was never overblown, like emotional outpourings ever. And I was like, I am. So it was quite difficult. But my D pulled the car over, picking me up from somewhere and it was on the table. I do I go to uni or do I do music? And he said, you should do music, just see how it goes. Which I thought was like, really amazing. Yeah, because like, a lot of parents wouldn't have supported that at all.

20:17

But he must have known you were good. I mean, he'd seen you perform at that point.

20:42

Yeah. It's funny now because obviously so much has happened now and they, they really enjoy it now, but they must have been some hairy years because it was a decade of not getting anywhere, really.

20:45

Yeah.

20:56

And being on tour and like really unregulated, unsafe world for like a young woman.

20:56

Did they ever come with you?

21:02

My dad used to drive us a bit at the start. He drove us to Glasgow once and back in the same night because we couldn't stay, you know. What a legend.

21:03

From Sheffield.

21:13

Yeah.

21:14

How long did that take?

21:14

I can't remember. I mean, that's four, four, five hours,

21:16

something like that, isn't it?

21:19

My dad is just so sweet. And thank God it's paid off 20 years late.

21:20

Did he ever give you critical feedback, like, advice about the music you were making and the songs you were writing?

21:26

He did a bit at first, and then I became aware that that's not okay. He still does this song of my new Out In Deep Blue. Okay. He was like, well, I thought there were going to be some drums coming. I was like, great, thanks, dad. And when he got to number five, he went, not bad. And I was like, ah, this is where my desperate need to please comes from, then. I see. But he's never been like, he's not hard. I know he loves it, but he's just not over the top. And I'm so over the top. But, yeah.

21:33

Where do you get that from then?

22:02

Honestly, I have no idea. My mum is, like, so calm, quiet. My granddad was like the. He was like a bit of a personality in the village, maybe he owned the shoe shop. He was like the dame in panto every year and stuff like that. So I think my best guess is,

22:04

there you go, it's leaking down from there.

22:19

He had some show business in him for sure, and that's where I got it.

22:21

And your mum was a secretary?

22:25

Yeah.

22:27

So where was she working?

22:29

She worked to solicitors, then she worked at the police doing, like 999 makeup for Sting. Yes. Yeah. I'm a nepo. My mum didn't make Sting's makeup. That's how I got into this. No. And then she. But my mum was home with us a lot when we were kids and then she went back to work when we were a bit older, which, again, I didn't realize was, like, amazing, you know, and kind of them.

22:30

Yeah.

22:59

Such a sacrifice and whatnot. Because me trying to think about having a baby, I'm like, I'm not stopping at home. I've got shit to do. Yeah.

23:00

It is weird, like, when I think about how much my parents sacrificed and how difficult their relationship was because of all the decisions they made about how they wanted us educated especially, and all the other things. You know, I moan about them sending me off to boarding school and things like that, but they really, really thought they were doing what was going to be best for me. And, you know, I did certainly get a lot of amazing things from those decisions they made. But, yeah, they sacrificed a lot in a way that I don't feel. I mean, I have a. I have a sort of cushier life, in a way.

23:08

Yeah.

23:42

So things are easier for me than they were for them.

23:43

Yeah.

23:45

So I don't have to sacrifice as much as they did.

23:46

Do you have to board? You have to stay to live there?

23:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

23:52

Oh, boys.

23:53

No, it was co ed, actually. Even though obviously you're in single sex dorms.

23:54

We would sneak across to the girls wing in the middle of the night.

23:59

It was so exciting. Nightboat to Cairo by Madness was in the charts. Do you know that one?

24:04

I don't.

24:09

It would play in my head as we were creeping across in the moonlight, like, literally so anxious about getting busted because I don't know what, I thought we would get expelled or something.

24:10

Yeah, yeah. Well, everything's terrifying in it.

24:21

Yeah, yeah, it was brilliant.

24:24

Anyway, all downhill from there.

24:26

All downhill from there. But, yeah, the downside was that I was emotionally crippled.

24:27

Gotcha. Well, that's socially more accepted.

24:33

Yeah, I guess.

24:39

So if you just keep it all quiet and inside, it's good training for

24:40

becoming a Tory mp. Apparently that was one of the options available to me. Tory MP or podcaster.

24:43

Well. Well, it's time. Yeah. For a swivel.

24:49

But still on the subject of your parents, though, I mean, I'm interested, especially because my children are musical. Couple of them.

24:53

Are they?

25:02

Yeah.

25:02

And I do give advice to my. One of my sons and I know he doesn't necessarily appreciate it. I'm trying to hold myself back, but it has happened on a couple of occasions.

25:03

It's tough.

25:15

What's the best way to play it then? As a parent? Just. Just be positive.

25:15

I think the way I make music so specific to me, like, if it was a goal that, like, if I was trying to make the best prog music possible, I might be all ears.

25:19

Has he recorded stuff?

25:29

Oh, yeah.

25:30

So does he ever say, look, I've

25:31

got this song I think would be perfect.

25:33

My dream is to have him play on a record.

25:35

Oh, really?

25:37

I'm gonn on the next one. He once played when I was in Slow club. We did a little covers EP and I covered Desperado and my dad came up and played it on the piano.

25:38

The Eagles.

25:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like, weird seeing my dad nervous, playing the piano. Like, killer, horrible. I can't bear it because then you just seen him as a little boy,

25:48

you know, did he behave himself?

25:57

Yeah, he smashed it. But it's just a weird role reversal, isn't it? So, sorry, I've not really answered your question, but it's such a personal thing and your parents are so in charge for so long that I think you just don't want their Involvement in your work? Yeah, I never did.

25:59

It's easier to keep those worlds separate. I mean, it was even weird for me when we had our dad. Was my dad, not our dad. Joe Cornish has a separate dad. But my dad was in our TV show and we'd take him to festivals and stuff, and on the one hand, we were encouraging him to be silly and play along, and on the other hand, I was protective of him. I didn't want him to embarrass himself.

26:14

But, no, I do. It's. There's something that's always been cool about my dad. It just was the thing that united everyone. He had videos of tours, he would read books. He had so many CDs and records and he would read cover to cover the thing. So it's just like, I've always cared about that because I suppose as a kid, you just want to do what they might think is interesting. Yeah, sometimes. There's cool stuff been happening lately where, like, gone out over Novello all the day. And I brought my mum and dad because I knew I was winning it, and because they had to come down twice to see me lose the Mercury Prize because the Queen died on the first one.

26:39

Right.

27:18

Do you remember this?

27:18

Yes.

27:19

The first Mercury Prize. Queen died, so we all had to grow. And then the second time, I didn't win, so I really wanted to bring them to something where they knew I was gonna win. So they came down and then we were sat like. My publisher, he, like, used to play football with Ian Gillan from Deep Purple. So my dad's having a chat about that. And then you two were picking up, like, a special award and played. And then Bruce Springsteen was there, and I was like. My dad was never really excited about anything. You could just tell. He was like, this is cool. And I was just like, that's weirdly wonderful to have achieved, you know?

27:19

Wow.

27:49

I always wanted my dad to think I was cool. And then now I'm like, he does.

27:50

That is amazing.

27:54

It's a long way around going, you know. Yeah, I took it a bit far here. And now I'm cursed with being a musician.

27:55

You couldn't write it, could you? It's like, oh, yeah, dad, come along to the Ivan Ovello's. Yeah, I'm getting an award. Holy shit.

28:00

I know.

28:08

Congratulations.

28:09

Thank you. It was a funny week because I was like, I. Different types of press every day for four days in a row. Like, three different things a day. And then it was that. Then the next day, I was on stage with scissors, Sister sisters. Singing and because I'd just. My brain had just flatlined. So I'm trying to learn the words for take your mama out. And I'm, like, dressed as a little sexy baby sailor.

28:10

Yeah, quite right.

28:30

Trying to learn words. And they were not going in. I was like, never again am I doing this much in one week. But the novellas were the best bit of a very mad week where as well, everyone asked me about kneecap every time I was interviewing. Oh, my God, I'm too tired. I can't tell you what I think about anything.

28:31

Why were they asking you? Just because every musician is supposed to have a opinion.

28:47

Yeah. Kept getting, like, ambushed.

28:51

Yeah.

28:54

You'd be like, on air. And then they go, and. And you're like, wait a minute. Horrible.

28:54

It is. I think that's so crap. I really do, actually. It's like, when's Mr. Tumble gonna say something about kneecap? You know, I'm not suggesting that you're exactly like Mr. Tumble.

29:01

I feel seen. Thank you.

29:13

I mean, you are a musician. There is a kind of a political dimension to some of the stuff you write. So it's not from total left field to ask you about it. But at the same time, it's such a crap. Gotcha. About this hugely complicated conflict situation. And even saying that that winds people up. They're like, it's not complicated. All you have to do is say this.

29:15

Yeah.

29:43

And then it'll all be sorted. It's people saying it's complicated. That's part of the problem. And it's like, oh, my go.

29:44

Yeah. But I got the award.

29:51

Has it sorted out the situation in the Middle East?

29:54

No, not yet. And that's my fault.

29:57

This time last year, June 2024, we did an event at the Crossed Wires Festival that was fun, but by that time, I'd already seen you performing in Cabaret.

30:28

Oh, yeah, I remember you coming.

30:38

Yes. And that was one of the last days, I think, in your run.

30:40

Penultimate show.

30:45

You started the run in September 2023 and went through to March 24th.

30:46

Yeah.

30:52

And it was so good. I've only been to a handful of musicals. Normally I do try and avoid them as well as the theater in general, really. I've had some good times at the theater, but anyway, it was extraordinary. Are you gonna do more?

30:52

Yes, I'd like to. It's just hard because Cabaret is the best one. That production of Cabaret is completely flawless. That's why I could just go into it. So. Because what I'm. Because I'd like to do more acting. I really enjoy it. It's a better place for me to be emotional than me. Right. And I found it. And I think it's just a challenge.

31:07

How do you mean?

31:24

Because I'm just so emotional. And I've, like, made a living out of how I feel for my whole life, really. And then when anyone's got a problem with that, it's killer, you know? And it's just too close. It's just exhausting. And then to be Sally, and I understood how she felt, and I could, like, access it because it was also me, but it just had this separation that I just loved. So I want to do another play. Yes. But it's hard because it's just the best one.

31:25

Remind people what cabaret is about if they haven't seen it.

31:52

It's just like, at the very start of World War II, Nazi Germany is, like, bubbling under. It's the last hurrah in Berlin when, you know, there's money and just sex and drugs and decadence. Decadence and just queer. And, like, just this musical about the party being over, you know? And it's so haunting and close to the bone now. And Sally is like. She's like a party girl who wants to have no boundaries and no rules and just keep going and not live by any societal norms. But then also, I think she's like that to save face, to kind of, like, if she didn't get a husband and have a baby and be a nice lady, she never wanted it anyway. Which is the most me thing ever. So. And I loved it. And I loved being a. You know, I was a Sally bowles who. She's 19 in the book, but I was 36 doing it. 37. And she gets rid of a pregnancy, basically. She chooses the independent option because she can't trust the man or whatever. And I just thought there's something. So I was so proud to sort of tell a story of that because it's really close to my heart, you know, and there's loads of dancing and sexy stuff. And I got off with the Nazi, innit?

31:55

Did you?

33:06

Yeah. Still going out with him.

33:06

Nice.

33:08

I thought, I wonder how many Sally Bolzers have got off with the Nazi. With the hot Nazi in the history of this musical. It's probably a high percentage.

33:09

Well, I'm very happy for your Nazi romance. That's the bit we're gonna clip out. But I so relate to the idea that that would alleviate your anxiety because it's a kind of prescribed existence where so many of the complicated things that you worry about. Every day are set to one side and everything's organized, there's a timetable.

33:18

And everything about it was not by my hand. And the only bit I had to control was my performance. And everything about self esteem has been, it's just me.

33:44

Yeah.

33:53

Which is. I can't do it any other way. But like, I don't think I realized how exhausting and pressurized that's been until I wasn't doing it for a bit.

33:53

For the first time ever Prioritize pleasure came out 2021. And then. Was there another album between that and Cabaret?

34:02

No.

34:11

No. So this is the new one, is the first one that you've done since Prioritized Pleasure. And I remember talking to you before Sheffield.

34:12

Was I making it then?

34:22

And yes. You said you were having a terrible time.

34:24

Oh, yes.

34:26

Why?

34:27

Well, with a bit of perspective now, I think there was no way to not have a terrible time making the first album after you've had a bit of success. Did you have it in your career where, like, they love you on the way up, then you're here. Sure you're here.

34:28

Yeah. How are you gonna follow it up?

34:42

Yeah. And also like your Fair Game and the sort of brigade of people that are like, oh, actually, I don't think he's that good, actually are ready to come no matter what. So, like, rationally I knew that was coming no matter what I made. Even if, if I made, you know, Kid A, like it was coming.

34:43

People didn't like Kid A at the time.

34:59

No, they were wrong, you see. So, yeah, so I was having a bad time. But then I also now with a bit of perspective, like, prioritise measurements. So like, my life changed on that. I went from like loads of time and focus on what I was doing and not really getting anywhere to suddenly, like. I mean, it was wild. For three years I didn't have a day off. Like, it was constant. And then I did Cabaret and then I went straight into Complicated Woman. And I think I was just burnt out in like the purest sense. I hate like buzzy words and that, but it was really what I couldn't think.

35:01

And I'm sure you were probably overthinking, like, what you were gonna do and how you were gonna do it. Were there sort of critics voices in your head?

35:32

Yeah. And like, to be honest, it got reviewed really nicely and I've had a perfectly alright time of it. There was like one real stinking review and. And I've not, not even read it. But even just knowing it's there as like, Rationally, again, doesn't matter. I know 100% know it's coming. It just like, yeah, it's been really weird. But then when you. I'm trying to process it and think, like, basically no one cared what I was doing my whole life. Then everyone was saying it was really good. I remember, like, watching smoke go up my asshole. Like, I know this can't last. It was good at first on Pride Times Pleasure. It was really fun and I was getting asked to do things I'd always wanted to do and that was all really fun. But then knowing that that's not sustainable sort of ruined it. And then it not being sustainable has been pretty painful. That's why I'm a bit, like, assessing what do I want and what do I think? Because there's something with music where you do well and then your only option is you've got to go bigger. If you want to go bigger. It's like, scientifically, you have to dilute what you're doing, really. If I want to be a global artist in today's economy, Right, you've got to do a song that's going to be pretty simple, you know.

35:40

Is that your priority, though? Because I do remember watching the Slow Club Doc, which is called All Our Brilliant Friends, and you're talking about some of the things that we were talking about earlier, about. About sort of feeling ambitious, but feeling a little bit like everyone around you thought it was too jazz handsy to be worried about wanting to get everything right. And you said, though, you can't help but want more. I want to be a big dog. I mean, I don't know if you literally were talking about wanting to be like, a big, sweet dog.

36:48

I'd be a lovely dog, if. I'm sure you would happen. Big slobbery golden retriever. Sorry, carry on.

37:21

But no, you were talking about. You were talking about wanting to sort of do as well as you can within your field.

37:27

Right? Yeah. I watched, like, we watched every artist go just zoom past us, like, Mumford and Son supported us. And I thought, those kids have got it. Watched them just go fly and pass. And, you know, I was like, living in the horrible flat shares in London, you know, with no money, just like, please, can't I just have a poster on the tube and, like, do this properly, like. And then it, you know, and then it all happened and it was amazing. I was in the pandemic, living in my mum and dad's house. I was like, looking this retraining as a Zumba teacher. But when I Made prioritize pleasure. There was a real like weird clarity where I was like Rick Rubin style. Like, I am now a conduit from the universe and I'm gonna be that. The art came down through me. And, you know, it really was this like, peaceful place and was, you know, such changed my life, you know.

37:33

What was the first moment that that happened? And what music were you making when you felt like that?

38:26

The song called I Do this all the Time. That is what changed everything really. Stephen Mack played it twice in one show and I was like, hang on a minute, something's happening here. I was like, finally, like. And they did. The phone just never stopped ringing after that. Like, it was amazing.

38:31

Where did that song come from?

38:46

I just, I'd always wanted to do a, you know, Sunscreen Baz Luhrmann, like, that's like my favorite things ever. And sometimes I've like got an idea for a song and I like give myself a brief. Sometimes they just happen. But I'd always had this brief in my head of like, what would a sort of woman's sunscreen be today? Yeah, I write these phone notes basically. I mean everyone does. It's not. I'm not like a master of this craft, but it was a big part of when I started Self Esteem. I would just post sort of two or three line poems from my iPhone, collated them, did it one take in Sheffield, like. And I just knew. Then the rest of album. I just knew what to do at all times. And Complicated Woman was like, I knew ish what to do, but I was second guessing every single bit of it. I was letting other people's opinions in, which is something I've never done. And self esteem, I'm proud of it. Like, I think it's like really dense and mad and it's done well. And people like, I'm talking like, it's been a mad failure, but it wasn't as pleasant. And now I see like going into making the next one, it's like, how do you force an environment where my brain feels like it did when there wasn't so much pressure?

38:48

I mean, the way that a lot of people do it is they switch tack completely and they identify the things that everyone latched onto and they self consciously turn their backs on them.

39:57

Yeah.

40:08

So for you, that would be probably that incredibly self lacerating, very honest lyrical style that you have. Did you identify the bits that make you you or the bits that people latched onto on Prioritized Pleasure? And did you think, where did these go now do I Need to twist them around or do I need to do anything with them? Or was that part of your self consciousness?

40:08

No, I knew I've got this dream of making like a very stripped down piano record.

40:33

Oh, yeah, right.

40:38

And I was so tempted to do that instead. And that felt like cheating to 180 at that point. I felt Self Esteem had always been a trilogy in my head. And I always wanted to make whatever Prioritized Pleasure had books like Upper Level. So we had 10 singers on prioritized pleasure. I got like 30 on this, you know, and I wanted to make a bigger, bolder, wider screen version of Prioritized Pleasure, which is what I think I did. But I knew that that was a challenge and to 180 would have been easier and arguably might have gone better, but too late now.

40:39

But the risk, obviously, other than any kind of critical barbs that might come at you because they'd go, oh, look, this is what she does. And she's doing more. The risk for you personally is that you're putting so much of yourself out there and what you were saying before is that you. Every bit of commentary or criticism, you feel it personally.

41:11

Yeah, I've always. So you know, my therapist and people around me, there's a lot of like, self esteem is this thing. And Rebecca Lisa Taylor is the other. And I'm like, it isn't that. It's the same. And I've never. I never understand not completely putting yourself into what you make. This is the first time I've felt any kind of negativity towards doing that. It's the first time it's like, bit me on the ass. And I've been surrounded by people going like, this is gonna buy her on the ass eventually. And I've been like, no, why wouldn't I say how I feel in my music? Why? It's boring not to. And now I see the price, actually. And they're like. And the risk. I won't stop doing it because I can't. I've written a book.

41:32

Have you?

42:08

Same as I've started running. But I wouldn't say it's running, shuffling. And my book is so hardcore, that book. Like, I'll get. I'm gonna get so many emails from people being like, mad with me.

42:08

Why? Because you've mentioned people personally?

42:19

No, I never mention anyone directly. But like, I just think like, people have a. People don't like women saying anything and it's quite like exposing and. But again, I can't not do it. So I think my point is. Yes, I've learned the price you pay for it, but can't not do it. And then the people I love, like the artists I love, like Marina Abramovich, Madonna, like they don't give it a second thought. I'm sure they did at, at the time but.

42:21

But I don't think of Madonna as being someone who put herself, I mean she did in lots of ways put herself on the line, but lyrically she wasn't in the same place as you as being like so specific about your neuroses and your. No, but you know what I mean. Like things that are really pretty deep down in the core of you and what you worry about and what makes you tick and things you don't like about yourself. Things that most people try pretty hard to cover up.

42:46

I feel like that soothes me of it though. Yeah, it is weird, isn't it? Like I'm only just thinking about it now. I'm a bit worried like one day I'll be like, oh, we take all that out.

43:14

But I'm not suggesting you should feel bad about it. No, no, I've thought the same about, you know, I talk about this stuff a lot myself and I have times when I think I overshare and I can't not though I worry but, but I feel the same way as you is like I do believe there's a value in it and I think you can go too far with it, but it's an interesting place to be.

43:25

And teens, twenties was like desperately trying to clip myself down to conform and assimilate what everyone else was being like. And I don't even think I was that wild, but I was unlucky that I was just in environments of, you know, all the lads in the band had long term girlfriends and homes and I lived in and out of flat shares and had 20 million different relationships and I couldn't be normal. Right. I've not felt bad about not being normal now for years. So all of it is part of healing how horrible it was to try and conform. I think I'm sort of like I am singing to me at 22.

43:49

But also even those people who you think of as having conformed, they probably don't feel like they fit either. Everyone feels that to a degree. I suppose that's why so many people have responded to it, you know, because it is, yeah, fairly universal. I don't know that many people who at core are happy with the way

44:31

they are, but everyone has certainly made me think they are.

44:47

Yeah, yeah.

44:49

I have just like self flagellated yeah. Is that the word?

44:50

Sure.

44:54

And it creeps back in sometimes. And then I am cleansed by going, now I'm just gonna tell the truth of what it is. And then. Fair we know. Every time someone else goes, thanks for saying that. I feel that.

44:54

Yeah.

45:02

I'm like, I feel less alone. It's quite selfish. I'm not doing it for other people. I'm doing it for me to like that teenage fucking girl who went to see bands and, you know, every woman I ever met was like, rail thin singing the harmonies there to add a sort of romance to a thing. And I wished I couldn't be her. And I desperately wanted to be. So every time I saying about, you know, personal things loudly, I feel like I'm avenging her.

45:03

Yeah. There's a line on the opener. Which line am I going to say? I do and I don't care. Which line?

45:36

The one about smoking?

45:44

No, not smoking line. If I'm so empowered.

45:46

Ah, yeah.

45:50

Why am I such a coward? The chorus, well, it's a sort of refrain reprise.

45:51

Yes. Sorry. Of course you'd talk about that. Yes. Prioritized pleasure did have a sort of empowered sense of self that immediately went out the window as soon as I was like, more visible. Like, I'm not famous. Right, but you became visible and people could have an opinion on me for the first time in my life. Not normal, like, not natural thing to happen to anybody ever. And also, in a way, because I wasn't going, like, stratospherically, you know, I wasn't like, surrounded in. It wasn't like loads of money suddenly or like, you know, it was this weird middle ground and I started to get scared all the time, like. And also, like 21, 22, everyone wanted to say, well, actually, you know, to everything you say, I think there's like a tiny bit. I mean, still rough out there. But the discourse, like, you know, that, like, rabid need to pull people up

45:56

seems to not be as in what kind of situations?

46:49

Just like.

46:54

Are you talking about online or.

46:55

Yeah, just like, nothing really that bad happened, but it was just. I was constantly scared. You're gonna put your foot in it.

46:56

Right, okay.

47:02

Or like, you know, tiny things. Like, if I talk about my period, then I got, you know, people. And I'm obviously like, very involved in trans rights. But then, you know, people would DM me saying that's not. Not trans inclusive. Things like that. Where I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's that sort of liberal lefties picking each at each other. And I was quite vocal about things I believed in. And for the first time there was. People hit there to pick holes in it. And you're like,

47:02

I mean, who is pure in that world or in any sphere of political discourse, right or left?

47:30

I mean, everyone.

47:38

Everyone's just waiting to get one over on everybody else.

47:40

That's what I mean. That's why we're losing.

47:44

I feel like that. I must say.

47:46

Obviously, I get like in silly men telling me I'm fat and ugly. Right. And that's fine. I'm like that. I just. Okay, sure. Like, I expect that. But when it was like, you know,

47:48

when it's your own tribe community.

47:58

Yeah. I was like, ah, you just start to shrink. So that lyrics about that really. But I'm. I actually. I'm not just saying that for a good podcasting. Like, the last couple of weeks, I've. There's a turnaround in my head and I'm crawling back now. I think it's just all been a shock and I can see the light a bit again now.

48:00

Good.

48:20

It.

48:29

You've got a good booze song in your record.

48:56

Thanks.

48:59

Are you never gonna booze again? You're never gonna booze again?

48:59

Free booze is always lovely. I can't quite disconnect from like, but it's free. No, I do big chunks of time not doing. And then I'm really. I'm really proud of that song. Cause I'm like, I don't think there's many people that sing anyone. You know, you either get sober and that's you now or way it Here's a weekend like. No.

49:05

Yeah. So what are you saying in your song? I really love that song. I thought that was a banger. And very interesting lyrically as well. Yeah. I hadn't heard that perspective.

49:28

Yeah. I'm just trying to say, like, what's the middle ground? Because it's so binary.

49:36

Yeah.

49:43

And my therapist is always like, it's two and go home. And then you can. You know, I mean. And I'm like, yeah, but it's just not that simple. And no one's ever saying about, like, how grotty that is and how socially sort of rubbed down your neck it is. So I don't know. It's an ongoing process.

49:43

Part of the problem with booze is knowing when you do have a problem and knowing when the point comes when you just have to say, actually, this isn't working and I've just got to stop altogether.

49:58

Do you use Hoba?

50:09

No. No.

50:11

Should we get back In I'm drunk now.

50:13

I'm hammered.

50:18

I'm hammered. Well, that's the thing. Like, I've really realized there is the drinking that I do to be able to be the type of person that people are expecting. And there's a, like, nice couple here and there with friends that's, like, perfectly reasonable. And, like, God made these things that are nice, and I want to be able to have them. And the only time it gets problematic for me is when it's to perform and be what everyone else wants. But that's just, like, social anxiety. Like, I'm just a nervous wreck at barbecues, but I can't sing on stage. And that's never made much sense, you know?

50:19

Why are you a nervous wreck at barbecue? I know what you mean, but how? Like, talk me through.

50:53

I just can't think what to say. And then if no one says anything, I'll fill it. And somehow I'm finding myself talking about something about myself that's way too in depth, and I'm like, fucking hell. I just panic. I hate it.

50:58

How do people do it?

51:13

Some people just do.

51:15

Yeah. My wife is good. Although she. I mean, the thing is that when I see her at work with, like, parents from school and things like that, I just think, well, I could never do that. But it's. I can see that it's hard work.

51:16

Yeah.

51:30

She just really makes the effort.

51:31

Yeah.

51:33

That's the thing.

51:33

My boyfriend, like, rings people. I'm like, what are you doing, Freak?

51:34

Do you. If someone calls you and it's an unscheduled call, are you gonna take it?

51:43

I'm like, well, someone's dead. And I wait for it to stop ringing, and then a text saying, is someone dead? That's as much. That's what you'll get. I'm awful with it. I don't know. Like, I'm not. There's definitely work to do on, like, what's wrong with me in that department.

51:47

Are you in therapy at the moment?

52:01

Oh, yeah.

52:02

Oh, yeah.

52:03

Oh, yeah. I. Yeah, she's. Oh, she must be sick of me.

52:04

I'm sure she's not. I'm sure she likes you.

52:08

Yeah, I'm her favorite, aren't I? Yeah, she looks forward to me, doesn't she? Yeah.

52:12

But the other day, I was talking to a friend, a woman friend, and we were talking about therapy, and she said, are you gonna get any more? And I was like, yeah, maybe. But I quite like cbt. I've never had cbt. And she said, oh, men always want cbt.

52:17

Same my boyfriend, cbt, blah, blah, blah. It's because it's, like, practical, I guess, or.

52:38

Yeah.

52:45

Problem solving. It's not emotional. Yeah. He fucking loves all that. Does my nut him. In my song, it goes, I recommend listening. And he goes, I recommend CBT instead. Does my head in.

52:45

Is this the Nazi?

52:58

Yeah. Yes, it is. It's like you're writing stuff down and then you give yourself a treat if you. Yeah, I smell what you're stepping in with it. But you've got to talk about, like,

52:59

can't you do both?

53:10

Yeah, I mean, ideally, yeah. But that is funny. Men do love cbt. That's a lyric on my next record. Thank you to your friend.

53:12

Because I just. I just want. As I said to my friend, it makes me. You know, I talk about. I do my robot voice when I

53:22

talk about my wife.

53:29

And I do feel robot y sometimes, but only because, you know, you just. I don't know that it's a peculiarly male urge, though. You just want the world to make sense.

53:32

Yeah.

53:42

You just want some answers.

53:42

Do you kind of wish that the world just. Not a lot was going off? I think a lot of men just wish things weren't happening.

53:44

Yeah.

53:52

How do you mean?

53:53

Like socially or globally or not?

53:53

Don't we just. Simple.

53:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't. I don't like flapping.

53:58

You don't want a cat amongst the pigeons, you know.

54:02

Well, that's a certain kind of man. I mean, evidently. I don't know if you've read the papers recently, but there's quite a lot of men who aren't like that and are happy to put the cat amongst the pigeons and then go and bomb the cat and the pigeons.

54:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, not that.

54:16

Yeah, sure. I know you're talking more socially.

54:18

I've just known a lot of men that just would. Are just poodling about and it's looked lovely. My boyfriend there, I call him Auntie because he's just like, folding, dusting. Works out every day. Eats the same thing. Head hits the pillow. Good night. Nothing going on. It's amazing. Amazing.

54:21

Meanwhile, you've just written a song about darkness, your periods and the voices in your head. Some men are like that, though. But you're right, it is a different thing. I suppose there's all sorts of reasons, societal reasons, why there's not too many male artists like that. Like who. Who would be. Who are the sort of male equivalents of you in the music world who talk about their feelings and. Well, maybe. Although I suppose it makes a difference that he's gay, but John Grant.

54:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's.

55:23

Yeah, but what? Straight men do, that kind of thing?

55:25

There aren't really any. I don't. I can't really think. I mean, I think they're starting to, though.

55:29

Yeah.

55:34

Because it's fashionable.

55:35

Sure.

55:36

And I'm available to write lyrics for men if I need them.

55:36

Well, my. My debut album is coming out this September.

55:39

Is it?

55:42

Yeah, it might even be out by the time this appears. And that's a very, very emotional record.

55:43

Really?

55:49

No.

55:50

Oh, is it?

55:50

It's silly.

55:53

Is it? All right, okay.

55:53

It's silly.

55:55

No, but it's got real feelings in it.

55:55

Yeah.

55:57

Yeah.

55:57

You are very good.

55:58

But they're buried. That's the thing is I don't think I would ever be able to do what you do. It would always have to be buried quite dear.

55:59

What? Buried in what? Like metaphor or.

56:09

No, just sort of. It's a layer in. Among jokes or sort of irony or, you know, shields of one kind or another. But I don't mean that just because it's an exercise in total cowardice.

56:11

It's like.

56:24

Because that's what I like to do. I like silly jokes and I like. And I like parodies and I like things like that.

56:25

So art is valid.

56:30

Yeah.

56:31

Thank you.

56:31

All music is valid. Apart from some of it.

56:32

Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace.

56:43

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56:46

Dude.

57:27

Brutal. I've just finished my free trial and I love my Squarespace website, so I'm gonna buy it. Oh, I'm being asked if I have an offer code. I'm gonna type in Buxton. I just saved 10% on my new Squarespace website with the offer code. Buxton.

57:27

I just tore the last of my hair out.

57:41

Oh, sorry. Mike, you are a loser. And now you're gonna be dropped through the floor onto a mat not far beneath the floor. You should have gone to squarespace.com Buxton, you loser. Don't worry Mike, you still can. Thank.

57:43

Hey, welcome back.

58:08

That was self esteem Rebecca Lucy Taylor. And I'm very grateful to her for making the time to come and waffle with me. And I apologize, Rebecca once again for making it difficult to put the episode out any earlier. I'm stupid and I'm learning as I go along as a human. But anyway, it was really nice talking to Rebecca and I've put a few self esteem related links in the description of today's podcast. So how are you anyway? Podcats, I hope you're well. Feels like the beginning of summer right now in this park in East London where I'm standing.

58:10

So I wanted to tell you about

58:51

a couple live events that I have coming up, one of which is a conversation with Miranda Sawyer at the Charleston Festival in East Sussex. And that is happening in May. Oh, that's quite soon, isn't it? I just realized that's like really soon. It's in a couple of weeks, May 14th and that takes place at 9pm God, I'm all over the place at the moment. And yeah, I'm talking to writer and presenter Miranda sawyer about the 1990s. We're both 90s people, TV, homemade TV, podcasting, that kind of thing. And it's going to be quite similar to an event I did last year with Miranda at the Royal Festival hall, which featured chat and music and video nuggets from the Adam and Joe show days, amongst other things. And we had a really good night that night. I thought it was a good show and people seemed to enjoy it. I also love talking to Miranda. So this seemed like a good opportunity when I was invited to the Charleston Festival to give that another outing. I mean, it won't be exactly the same, but just in case you came to the other thing, don't be surprised if it's similar. Also, it is the 30th anniversary of the Adam and Joe show this year, so it seems like another good excuse to do some retro waffling. After this year, I'm never going to do retro waffling ever again. Okay, that's my pledge to you and to myself. A few weeks after that, on 28th June this year, 2026, I will be hosting a screening of the People's Emergency Briefing, an eye opening film bringing together nine leading UK scientists and experts presenting the latest evidence on what's happening with the climate and nature, what it means for everyday life in the UK now and in the future, and what can be done about it. The film is only an hour or so and it features contributions not just from the experts, but from a range of UK residents from all walks of life, as well as personalities including Jennifer Saunders and Stuart Leigh. I think I'm in there as well and they interviewed me. I'm not sure if I made it to the final cut as just, you know, someone sitting there with Chris Packham, who hosts the film. And we watched the talks which I actually saw being given live when the initial event happened in Westminster towards the end of last year. It was really a fascinating day and not totally depressing. A lot of the news is alarming, but you know, the whole effort is to try and do something constructive and to try and encourage the government to be more constructive as well. Anyway, after the screening of the film, which is going to take place at the Norwich Arts Centre. Did I say that? This is happening at the Norwich Art center on the 28th of tune. And after the screening, myself and acclaimed nature writer Patrick Barkham. He also writes for the Guardian, I think will discuss some of the information in the film with each other and also with the audience. I haven't done anything like this before on stage, but it's a subject I'm interested in and I care about, as I know many of you do. So I hope some of you can make it along, link in the description to those events. Okay, that's it for this week. I've got to go and get this edited and and then head to the station to go to Liverpool where maybe I will see some of you tonight. I hope so. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support.

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Thanks also to a couple of new

1:02:34

names to the podcast who I think are going to be helping me over the next few months. Claire Broughton and Diggory Waite. Never come across a Diggory before at site of the Harry Potter universe. Anyway, they are folks that work at Hat Trick Productions who are going to be helping me with the podcast, possibly

1:02:37

helping me be a little bit more ambitious, maybe doing some more extra bits

1:02:53

and pieces, maybe figuring out some ways to be more engaged with the podcasts. Anyway, we'll keep you abreast, but thanks to them for their help with this episode. Thanks to everyone at ACAST who liaise with my sponsors and keep the show on the road. Thanks to Helen Green. She does the beautiful artwork for this podcast. But thanks most of all to you guys for coming back for listening right to the end. I'm not going to shout loud because I'm in a public park and I'm shy, but I'm certainly up for a creepy hug if you are.

1:02:59

Hey, come over here.

1:03:34

Watch out for the bird chip. They all.

1:03:35

Oh dear.

1:03:38

You got a bit. Got a bit on your chest it.

1:03:38

There you go.

1:03:42

You got it. Sorry about that.

1:03:42

It's organic cockney bird shit. It's the best kind

1:03:45

and until next time we share the same sonic space.

1:03:49

Please go carefully and for what it's

1:03:55

worth I love you by

1:03:57

me like and subscribe like and subscribe like and subscribe please like and subscribe Give me

1:04:03

like a smile and a thumbs up

1:04:15

Nice like a thumbs up Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice like a bum like and subscribe like and subscribe like and subscribe and subscribe please like and subscribe Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. Sam, It.

1:04:17