How to say YES to hard things. With special guest Mark Drager sponsored by Uncommon Goods

You are now tuning in to discover your potential with Radio Talk Show host Dan Gilman. So listen, participate. Be inspired. Know that you can discover your potential. Here he is, Dan Gilman. Hello, you are listed to discover your potential and I am your host Dan Gilman. This program is all about you. The program is informative, inspiring, motivating, spiritual, and yes, we have a sense of humor. At least we try. People often ask, what is my sole purpose? Often the answer is right inside. Just waiting to come out forward. It just needs a little mudge. Often we think we are working and walking the right direction. Then the universe sends us to it on a detour. And you have that aha moment. Life is full of twists and turns and sometimes we think change is frightening. We have an amazing guest today, Mark Drager. Mark is a Mark Tier, an entrepreneur, a speaker, and the founder of Fanta Media. It's also the co-creator of the Something to Prove Podcast. And we do hard things podcast. He explores the challenges of entrepreneurship while sharing real life stories, experiences, and of course, some great and practical insights. Thank you very much for being on the show, Mark. Oh, thank you, Dan, for having me. I'm excited to be here. Well, it's exciting to have you. So on your website, you mentioned that it's hard for you to remember at time when you felt comfortable when you went through much diverse adversity, rather, as a child. Would you mind speaking about your childhood a bit? Sure. I had a very strange childhood because it was a mix of being completely idealic. And at the same time, being a very tight pressure cooker. So when I was growing up, my mom and dad split up right around when I was born, but they had a very, very good relationship. And so even though they were separated, my dad would come up with a Christmas and eat breakfast. And they were just on great terms. You know, my, it spent summers up at my grandparents cottage. And so we'd be in the lake. And we would play with our cousins in the wintertime. My grandparents had a place in Florida. We'd go down there and spend a few weeks down in Florida. Just honestly, pretty privileged, kind of upper middle-class childhood. Now when I was seven, my mom remarried. And what she didn't realize, and what I didn't realize is a seven-year-old, is that my stepfather had the manic side of bipolar. So he didn't suffer from depression, only from the mania side of things. And he would go into these really aggressive manic episodes. On top of that, had an alcohol problem, had an anger problem, and was just all in all kind of a really aggressive, angry, cynical person. And so I had this, I had this mixture of if I was at school, if I was with my family, if I was out of the home. Honestly, pretty, pretty privileged, as I mentioned, you know, I had people who showed me what was possible. I had great schooling. I had all of the structure, but at home, it was just really, really, really, really, to the point where often I would rather be at school than stay at home. A snow day, you know, I don't know. I'm up here in Canada. We have these things called snow days, but snow day. We have a lot of your Massachusetts. Yeah, well, Massachusetts. Yes, a snow day meant staying home. Now the other thing is, my stepfather was a fire fighter. And so I had his schedule memorized, and I still have it memorized today, right? It was, he would work five days and then take four days off. He would work four nights and then take five days off. And then he would do a day, day, 24 night, night. And that was the schedule each month. And I knew that, and I still know that, because when he was at work or away, life was normal and great. But if he was home, if he was coming home, we moved out to the country and we had a 500 foot driveway. If you could see his truck coming down the driveway, you never knew who was coming home, what attitude, what pressure. And so it was this really kind of strange childhood. And you also mentioned that you moved out when you were 16? Yeah, I mean, so this is what I struggled with for many years through my 20s and 30s. You mentioned it sounds tough. And I have four kids. Two of my sons, one's turning 13 and one is 10. And if I close my eyes and I imagine myself as little mark, as little boy mark in their age, it's heartbreaking to me as a father, honestly. Just knowing what I lived with. But what I struggle with growing up is, I mean, I wasn't physically abused. I wasn't sexually abused. We had, we asked our my trauma or the things that I worked through while may not have been as bad as other people have worked through are still things. So you mentioned moving out at 16. Ultimately what happened was, I just, when I was 11, I got up the courage to ask my mom if I could move in with my dad, which was really tough for me. It was really, really tough because my parents were separated. I loved living with my mom. I just didn't like living with my mom and my stepfather. And so I got up the courage and she said that she would talk to him. And so there was this agreement where over the summer break, I would go live with my dad on a trial. That's what I was told it was a trial. What I didn't realize at the time and what my mom told me later was, it wasn't a trial. My dad, my dad, or had two stepsons from the second marriage. Things were really busy. There was no place for me there. So I went away for the summer at the age of 11. And it's just like, I know that if I could be, if I could do what they asked me to do, if I could be a good boy, if I could do all these things, then maybe I can have the chance to live here. And towards the end of the summer, my dad was like, okay, so I think I went away for three weeks or four weeks. He said, okay, so like you're heading home on this day. I was like, what do you mean? Like, I thought if I do all of these things that I can maybe live here and that didn't happen. I went home. And so that though was the start of the like, I can't live here anymore. Like as soon as I'm old enough, I'm going to be out as soon as I'm old enough. And it hit the point where when I was 15, I don't even remember this, but my mom told me this later. I approached her and said, I don't know where I'm going to go. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I can't live here anymore. And I just need to leave. And so I moved out at 16. My sister was 18. We moved out together. My mom did help us figure out how to make it work. We were very, very fortunate because my mom did help us find a place. My dad re-deverted his child support from my mother to us. I went out and had a job. We were able to make it work. But yeah, I was like, I could not wait to get the hell out of there. Yeah. So how did that experience shape your life terribly? Well, I mean, you know, so I was, I'm a really capable person. I can pretty much attack anything that I have confidence in. And so what it meant was I was confident that I could take care of myself at 16. And I did. My grades went up. I had less things to, fewer things to worry about. Now my daughter is turning 15. I can't imagine her moving out any year. Like she just does not seem ready for the world. But I met my wife when I was 17 and she was 16. We were married five years later. So she was 21. I was 22. We had my first starter, 23. I started my company. We bought a house in 2008. So it would have been 25. We bought our first house. So it was just how did it, like it showed that we were ahead of schedule. You know, people often were surprised. I was as young as I was. They're surprised that I'm a millennial. You know, maybe not now. I'm 38. But at the time, they were like, you look way older. You act way older. You're not a real millennial. You're not one of those flaky people. But what it meant was that like 25, I felt accomplished by 30. I felt behind because people were catching up. By 35, I was really questioning, is this all there is? And I've spent the last few years trying to unwind some of that. So I don't know how positive or negative it is. But I can tell you that I can't change it. All I can do is accept it and try and unwind it and figure out how to live with some of it. Yeah. You also, you have a podcast called Something to Prove. And actually, you've also mentioned on your website where you believe we all have something to prove, which is really interesting. Do you think that belief also stems from your experiences as well? Just curious about that. Well, I think we all do. You know, you either have something to prove to the people outside of you. And that might be healthier and negative. Or you have something to prove to yourself. And so the reason I say both of those things is because I'm speaking to an achiever or a high achiever. Someone has really got things figured out. I'm speaking to my friend Evan Carmichael. He doesn't have anything to prove to anybody. He has something to prove to himself, to his own fears, his own doubts, his own limiting self beliefs. Unless you're Evan Carmichael, most of us, I believe, have something to prove because at some point someone looked at you and said, you can't do that. Or they, they, you told them their idea and they give you that little look where you were rejected or you put yourself out there or you tried and you failed. And most people hit those roadblocks and then never try a second time. Or a third time, they never get up and they never go on. And if there's areas of all of our lives where we were told at the age of 10, you learn really quick and you go, I guess I do. And then you carry that, right? Someone's still in you. You're a quick learner. Someone else told you, you can't dance. So you never tried to dance again. And you stood off at the corner of all the high school dances and at the weddings and you just, you told yourself you can't dance. Most people, most areas of our lives, we get defined and we're like, okay, but there's those few areas where our drive or desire or our high hopes demands greatness of us. It demands that we actually do that thing. And when we're excited, it's easy. When it's new, it's easy. But when it's hard, it's that it's that's something to prove. It's that feeling like I have to prove to those people that I can do it. I have to prove to my family that I can do it, that I can achieve it. It's not necessarily a healthy thing. But it's something I've heard from people time and time and time and time again. Yeah, that makes sense. Is there some sort of shift over time though where we always have to seem to prove something? I mean, I know you mentioned Evan Carmichael not having to prove it to anybody. But I feel like even for me at a certain point with the work that I do, I always seem to have to prove things like you mentioned. But there's a point of me that says, why do I have to prove something to everybody? Right. I mean, so I think when you ultimately get over all of your insecurities, then you have nothing left to prove. There you go. I haven't gotten over my insecurities yet. And I mean, a story that I love to tell is, gosh, you know, I can't even remember her name. But there's this amazing actress who has been on Broadway. She's won an Academy Award. She has two or three decades of experience. She's been on television. She was walking on the set of a Clint East with film. This is a woman in her 60s. I wish I could call her name. I could look it up. But anyway, she's walking onto her Clint East with film, having all of these years of experience. And she has a panic attack. And she goes out to the car and Clint will come over. I said, what's wrong? And she said, I can't do this. I just can't do this. I forgot. I don't know how to act. I forgot how to act. And he's like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? And so I've spoken to people who have built nine figure, ten figure businesses. They sell. They don't think they can do it a second time or a third time. People like this actress, who's won Academy Awards and Tony Awards and been on Broadway and been on television, and is revered by tons of people standing in front of Clint East, who doesn't think she can act anymore. And so it's tough because I say, as long as you don't have insecurities, you don't have anything to prove. But gosh, show me someone who doesn't have any insecurities, right? Sure, that's interesting. Yeah. Many of your conversations seem to stem from issues you've dealt with. Being good enough, self-doubt, anxiety, fear, getting let go of negative behavior, really. How pervasive are these barriers? Well, I should say, how pervasive are these barriers and issues in the entrepreneurial world or beyond? I don't know. I can't speak to how pervasive they are. But there are different types of people. I'm not built to be an entrepreneur. I am an entrepreneur. Something like something, some drive, some desire. Maybe it's the fact I don't like to be controlled. Maybe it's the fact I like to be in control. Maybe I don't know what it is, but I'm really not your quote unquote typical entrepreneur. So I'm not really that competitive. I get very, very excited and then swing to hopelessness very, very quickly. I love starting things and envisioning how things could be. But I'm not a huge fan of systems or processes or things like that. And when I talk to an entrepreneur and say this, they like, sounds like an entrepreneur to me. But what I see in others is this drive and hunger and determination and confidence that I don't see within myself. Now here's the thing. When I talk to other people, they see that. They see all those things in me. And so this comes down to the fact that like we judge others on what they show, but we judge ourselves on what we hide. And so I think that a lot of these fears and these doubts. The holidays sneak up fast, but it's not too early to get your shopping done and actually have fun with it. Uncommon goods makes holiday shopping stress-free and joyful. With thousands of one of a kind gifts, you can't find anywhere else. Uncommon goods looks for products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the US. Many are crafted by independent artists and small businesses. And because they're made in small batches, the best fines can sell out fast. 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Because the people who say that's me, that's me, that's me. You know, it's not that they're looking up to me. It's that they're amazed that someone is saying this. And when I speak to someone at a level who's higher than me, or really successful, they don't come to me and say that's me, that's me, that's me. Because I don't know if they've worked through it, or if they're not willing to admit it, or if it just they think it just doesn't matter. There are these people where they look at what I'm saying and they say, why are you so focused on the negative? Why are you, why are you so pessimistic? Why are you focused on those things? Just ignore those things and go, go, go, go, go. And it's like, I'd like to be built that way. But even this morning, we're recording this on a Monday, even this morning, man was I down. Like I was just so down and not feeling good about anything. And so it's just like, I don't know how pervasive it is, but I do know that some people look at what I say and think, boy, you know, just you're just, you know, a Debbie Downer. And then other people go like, I can't believe someone is actually saying this. You did a video about excitement and how to plan your days to help be enthused, almost choreographing excitement. How important is that to success? I think it's everything, man. And I just mentioned I was having it down days. So like I'm looking at my calendar and my schedule. And I know why I was having it down day. Like I know what was in my schedule that was leading to it. But right now, right now what we're doing, it's fun. It's fun for me. I live for this stuff. And you know, I'm really active on clubhouse. And so I ran, you know, my typical hour and a half clubhouse room this morning. That was fun. That was great. I released another episode of the We Do Hard Things podcast. And we're going to three episodes per week next week. I get to interview someone that I've been, to more that I've been excited about and have read all of their books. And I'm a huge fan of. And so, so listen, excitement will carry you so much further than grit or determination will. But the grit and the determination come in when you don't have the excitement. Right? Your excitement fleets and goes, you can't just stay addicted to look like what's next, what's next, what's next. I mean, you can do that and that will help. But there's going to be the periods in between the excitement. And that's where the determination comes in. Well, you also say, think big, be bold. Say yes. But the first two are easy to understand. But what do you mean by saying say yes? Well, that's interesting to me that you think the first two are easier to understand. I mean, so say yes is the fact that let's take a step back. Think big, be bold, say yes. The reason I have that mantra and I developed it a long time ago is because by nature, I think that I think small. I don't think big. And even though I think bigger than other people in my life, I still don't think big enough. I, most people do not think big enough because they, they don't even think they can accomplish something a few years ahead of them. The thought of thinking outrageously big just scares them too much. So I don't think big. I'm not naturally bold, not by nature. And I say no to almost everything that comes my way. And so yesterday, I'm sitting with my wife. The sun is rising. We're enjoying a coffee out on our patio. And my wife turns to me and says, you know, be really good if the kids could go swimming later. We were just having some issues with our pool. Be good if the kids could go swimming later. Can you turn on the heater? I was like, no, I can't turn on the heater. I have so much to do today. The pilot light isn't lit. And what are you talking about? And I was like, why are you throwing all this stuff at me? I'm overwhelmed with what I have to do. And I like freaked out at her on Sunday morning or having this coffee. I was angry. But I was just like, I have so much to do. And then I sit my coffee. And then four minutes later, I get the barbecue lighter. I go over the pool heater. Guess how long it took me to get it started? Two minutes, one minute? Two minutes. Two minutes. Two minutes to get it started. And I walk back over. So three or four minutes after I left, I walk back over. She's like, did you start the pool heater? I said, yeah. She's like, why did, why was this a big deal? It's like, I don't know. Right? If she were to come into this conversation and say, hey, Saturday night, can we, but I'd be like, what? Said, like, I don't, I recognize it within myself. I don't know why I say no to everything. But whether you're like me and you just don't want more stuff on your schedule or someone approaches you and says, I have this really cool idea. What's your natural reaction, right? Is your natural reaction like amazing? I love it. Let's go. Or is it like, or maybe it's excitement followed by. All the reasons you can't do it. I have a friend who is in, is, is climbing Mount Kilimanjaro right now because he's, he's he's in, he's an explorer. And this is something like his 26th trip. I had him on my podcast. He's climbed Everest. He's climbed every mountain, major mountain. He went to the North Pole, he went to the South Pole. He does it because as a child, he beat two rounds of terminal cancer. He has something like only a 4% chance of living both of those things. He lived. So now he does this stuff. And he said, Mark, I want you and your wife to come to Mount Kilimanjaro next year. What do you think my natural reaction was? It wasn't, it wasn't say yes. It was, it was like, no, where is that? Africa? We can go to Africa two weeks. Who, what, what about my kids? How much does this cost? Why would we do in the summertime? And then I told my wife about it. And then we did some research. And then I thought about it. And then I was like, hey, that sounds like an amazing experience. Let's go do that next year. So I don't know if we're going to or not, but, but I don't think big. So I need to think big. I am not by nature as bold as I feel like I should be. And I tend to say no to everything. And that's just a anti-risk kind of risk adverse protective mechanism. But in fact, when you say yes to things, that's when life gets really interesting. Yeah, I said, I tend not to bring this up, but I tend to say yes too much. I say yes to, I say yes to people asking me things. Oh, okay. Yeah, because I always send, say, I tend not to say no and I tend to say, yes, sure I'll do it. And then I'm like, oh, I can't do this. Yes, I jump in. I, so that's the other weird thing is like I volunteer to too many things. People ask me, can you do this and can you do that? My schedule's way too packed. I'm actually spent the last month trying to pull stuff out. And I still am overwhelmed with how much stuff I have to do. It's just saying yes to the big things, saying yes to the things that will actually challenge you, make you uncomfortable, drive you forward. Those are the things that often we say no to. And I noticed on the site, I don't know if it's, if it's passed now, but you recently did a challenge on chunk to hunk challenge. Is that correct? The chunk to hunk challenge. Yes. So that's part of the thinking big and being bold and saying yes, you know, I'm the host of the We Do Hard Things podcast. And my team said, Mark, how can you be the host of We Do Hard Things? But you never talk about any of the hard things that you do. We need you to do something hard. And I was like, okay, I don't even know what that means. And they're like, go run a marathon or go do something. So one night I was thinking like, what is something that's hard that would be a challenge? And I heard this thing about COVID during lockdown, right? That we're all going to leave lockdown. This was the meme or the joke. We're going to be a chunk, a hunk, a monk or a drunk. And so I was, so I heard this and here's the thing. Three years ago, up till three years ago, I was much heavier than I am now. If you're listening, you can't tell by my voice that right now I'm 180 pounds, I'm five foot nine. So I'm leaner. But up to three years ago, I was almost 240 pounds. I had been comfortably in a size 36 pants that became a 38 pants. And then I would just go to America and shop because you got your clothing even bigger. And then suddenly it's like, oh, I'm getting into size 40s. Oh, I've outgrown the larges and I can't shop at a bunch of places and I'm going to the extra larges. Oh, my suit that was a size 44 chest doesn't fit. And now I'm at like a 48. And so I was just like getting older, right? And I have lots of excuses. I run a business. I got four kids. I don't have time. I don't like lots and lots and lots of excuses. So my wife and I, we took a look at ourselves after taking our kids to Disney a few years ago. The sun has got to change. Like, this is part of me in my mid 30s thing. Is this all life is? So we started getting healthier slowly. We would work out. We'd lose a bit of weight. And then we'd not. And we plateau. And then six months later we get more serious. And we plateau. And over the course of years, I ended up getting healthier. You know, I went on to keto for two years. I worked out five times a week. I got down to like 185 pounds. But I still didn't look the way that I looked in the photo that I selected when I picked my original inspiration photo. My original inspiration photo I pulled and I said, I want to look like that. That guy did it. I can do it. But I still wasn't there. And so when you blend the fact that my team wanted me to do a challenge with the fact that I still, despite the fact everyone was like, you look good and you're healthy. I still didn't feel confident. I still didn't like myself. I still didn't like the way I looked. I didn't like walking around with a shirt. I was uncomfortable with my body. I didn't like the way clothes fit me. All of that stuff was true. I used this chunk to hunt challenge to prove to myself what I'm really capable of. And so it became 120 days. I got a personal trainer. I did every workout they told me to do when they told me to do it. I got a nutrition coach. The first few weeks wasn't great. So we reset the 90 day challenges. So I became a 120 day challenge. But after April 1st, April 1st, July 1st, I did everything they told me to eat down to the point one of an ounce down to the gram sometimes. I drank the gallon of water they wanted me to drink. I ate when they wanted me to eat. And I got really, I got really buffed. I got really lead. And I was like, holy smokes. Now, here's where you're catching me. I, the challenge ended July 1st. I went bananas, man. Like, like I haven't eaten. I hadn't had cookies in two years. I ate tons of cookies. I had an ice cream in nine months. I had ice cream. I think in four days, I ate something like 25,000 calories. I went crazy. And then I was like, I'm going to get back to it. In the last few weeks, it's been really hard. It's been really hard for me. So I've gained like eight pounds back. I don't like the way my face looks. I was lean. And even though I'm still like, I'm just not happy with myself. And so I could do it in the challenge. I could do it in the framework. But in real life, I'm struggling. And my wife is like, I don't understand you, Mark. How could you be so disciplined for four months straight? And then now you fall apart. And it's like, I don't know either. I'm figuring it out. I'm trying to work through it. But what I do know is I do know that I find freedom and structure. I do know that if I can make these domino decisions, these decisions that make every other decision obsolete. Like if you told yourself, I don't eat sugar. And you just said, I don't eat sugar. Well, that eliminates a lot of things from your diet. If you sometimes eat sugar and sometimes don't eat sugar, and it depends on how you feel, and it depends on how you slept, and it depends on your calorie. That gives you decision fatigue. And so I work really well in structure. I've learned. I work really not well outside of structure. And so I'm just trying to get back to that aggressive structure. Sounds like mindset, too. Mindset is really a big proponent of that as well. I notice for me anyway, because I'm the same way. I'm going to really work. I work with the nutritionist now. And I work really hard. And I want to lose weight. We're actually just become more muscle. But same, same, same. Oh, I'm going to have that chicken tonight with the rice. Yeah. So here's a few things that I've learned. Like one, you're so much more capable than you think you are of things. So I had never done any strength training before. I'd only done cardio hits and things like that. So moving into strength training, like my schedule is pretty bananas. What do I do? I do four, five kilometer runs a week. This is right now. So I do four, five kilometer runs. I do four, one hour hit trainings a week. I do three core exercises that take 30 minutes. And then I do four, one hour strength trainings a week. So that's like two, on average, about two hours of working out a day. In the challenge, it was more. Now, we've taken this down a bit. And then in the challenge, there were days where, like there was a one week period, where there was eating 1,600 calories a day for a week. And that was tailoring it down. It was like 2,200. It was 2,000. It was 1,800. It was 16. So this is like week four over Easter. My wife's eating pumpkin pie and raspberry pie. She's eating turkey that I are hand that I made for them. And I was eating 1,600 calories a day, just sitting there sipping decaf coffee and just like so hungry. But I lost a lot of weight, man. And I proved to myself what I was capable of. And so this is the thing. It's just like, I know now what I'm capable of. And that's why I'm so disappointed with myself. Before the challenge, I didn't like myself. And then I did the challenge. And I was like, holy smokes. I am awesome. And then now I'm really upset with myself because I'm not being as awesome as I was a few weeks ago. But I know I'm capable of it. And that gap is like, that is a dangerous place to play. Well, you look great. Thank you. That maybe I should do a challenge too. Well, there's pros and cons. So the great thing about a challenge is it creates a structure and a framework. You could do 75 hard. You could do anything. But you can't go back. Like if you want to see ever lasting lifestyle changes, a challenge is not great. As long as unless you're going to stick in that framework, forever. Because when you go back, you go back. I was so surprised after being on keto for two years and then doing this challenge for 120 days. After this was done, I was like, I'm going to eat all the things that I haven't eaten in years. And it was amazing to me. How could I go two and a half years? No sugar for two and a half years didn't bother me. And then now, I have nutter butters. Have you guys heard of nutter butters? Oh, yes, we have. Oh, my goodness. Nutter butters did chocolate coated nutter butters. I ate last week and a half ago. I ate half a package in one sitting. I'm just like no control. So I would say challenges work very well. But you have to make sure that you don't fall back into old habits and old traps. Because it comes back like that. Right. Do they say why we have an urge to have? Because when you look at it and not to talk about food for this whole interview, but when you look at it, food in general has so much sugar in it or at least processed foods. There's a lot of processed foods, especially here in the US anyway. I don't know about in Canada. There's a lot of different kinds of food. We have them too. So I mean, here's the thing. I'm lucky. I love vegetables. I love meat. I love all of that stuff. So my issue isn't eating. We've been pretty much whole foods for years. Like we don't really, like to me, processed food is like frozen vegetables or something, like pulling that out of the freezer. But I know that those aren't even processed. So now we have canned tomato sauce sometimes or something. But other than those epic cheat days I've had recently, we don't eat anything like that. And so it's pretty easy to monitor salt, eliminate sugar, eliminate dairy, eliminate anything but complex carbs. Like basically if I don't understand the ingredients, even my wife has these rice cakes. And I just bought plain rice cakes because I'd rather have, like I'd rather take berries. This is how deep I am. I'd rather take frozen berries, throw them in a pot, boil them down to a compost, and then like dip plain rice cakes into them, then have something with all this powdered stuff that you don't know what it is or read or something. So yeah, no, it sounds delicious actually. It is. After the show I'll go and get some. Add a little bit. Hold on, you want to take it to the next level. All-natural peanut butter. So rice cake, all-natural peanut butter, a little bit of salt, and then take some berries or something, put it on top. And it's the most amazing thing in the world. And it's not bad for you. Oh, wow, that's great. It looks like you're going to have another challenge soon anyway. So I mean, my new challenge right now, it's not structured, it's not official yet. But I'm getting into meditation. I've never been into it. I have anxiety. And I'm working through some of those things. I'm exploring meditation at this point, which I've been very resistant to. But meditation should help a lot. And yeah, I mean, there's definitely going to be more challenges in my future. I like the structure of it. I like that it forces me to do things I wouldn't normally do. So I'm not sure if that might be comedy. It was suggested to me maybe try to put together like a five-minute set. And even that's like, you've got to get in front of people. You have to practice things. You have to know what's funny. You have to be willing to bomb. You have to stand on stage. So something like that could be a fun little challenge for me. What would you like to leave with the audience? Because I'm sure they're interested to hear more about that. Yeah, I mean, for me, my whole mission, I've realized I've spent the last. If you go back and listen to the early episodes of the We Do Hard Things podcast, I started interviewing people last summer. We released it in October. But it took a long time to find what the heck was this thing and what was I doing, even more so than something to prove. Something to prove with me in Evan. We're just hanging out, dealing with things. But we do hard things. What I realized is that there are so many of us. And I identify myself this way. There are dreamers who want to do the most amazing things. I am such a dreamer. And as long as I dream of things, I feel creative. I feel smart. I feel potential. I feel accomplished. But if I don't do anything, if I don't move from being a dreamer to a doer, I can't help but feel like a liar. Like this is me. This isn't anyone else, maybe. But I feel like a liar. I feel like I've told and shared over the years so many of my hopes and my dreams with people. I'm going to do this. Even now kill a majority. I shared with you now kill a majority. It's out here. It's live. I've told my friend, Sharon Swarner about it. But in the back of my mind, it's like, well, maybe next May, we don't have the money or maybe we can't get the time. Or the babysitting or this or that. Maybe it won't happen. I'll have spent all these years, or months, sorry, for almost a year talking about Mount Kilimanjaro just not to go. And that's just one of many things that I dream and I talk about. And so for those of us who dream of doing something more, I, my mission, everything we do with the podcast, everything that I want to do, the people that I interview, the people I speak to, they are all on the other side of a scary, hard or difficult thing. Now that scary, harder, difficult thing could have been thrown at them, unexpected, health challenges, business challenges, bankruptcy, losing someone, losing something. Or they could have actually realized what they had to do. Step up and do that harder, scarier, difficult thing. But on the other side of that, on the other side of dealing with this, on the other side of stepping out in faith, hoping it will all work out. Maybe it does. And it always creates the most interesting and beautiful life. And for those of us who have something to prove, who are risk adverse, who are afraid, who have doubt, who have fear, we live these sheltered life in the hope that we can hold on to the few things we have. But if you open up your hands, if you open up yourself for the possibilities of what could be, if you try things, if you do things, if you move, if you step out, is it all going to work out? Probably not. It's not going to work out how you think, or when you think, and you're going to have bumps and scrapes along the way. But how many of us have spoken to someone and we're like, how did you do that? And they're like, it's funny. I knew someone and I was at this party and then this thing happened and that thing happened and it led to Bapapa, right? Like, we all know these stories. If you tried to engineer it, it would never happen. But you put yourself in the place and suddenly this thing happens and you look back and it all seems to make so much sense. I want those of us who are afraid or who have doubt or fear or dreamers to realize that you need to start opening yourself up for these things, doing these things and taking these things on because I get over my fear of climbing count and Mount Kilimanjaro. I go with my wife. We spend two weeks up in the mountain. Well, what's the risk? We could die. Right? What's the possibility? The possibility is stronger relationship, stronger connection. We meet someone there that become lifelong friends or a business partner or we find something deep within ourselves that we didn't realize like you have to live. And so you asked a very simple question. I've given a very long answer and I apologize, but mostly it's just like we need to be open to these risks. We need to go from dreaming to doing. We need to say yes to the hard things. I love the name of your podcast, by the way. That's perfect. Thank you. Well, we're building a community. It's more than a podcast. It's like we have, and this is part of me being a dreamer, but we're building a massive community. We're building an online audio magazine and just over the next year and a half, it's going to be a whole thing. So where can people learn more about you and do they go to your website? Do they go to the podcast? Yeah. Where's the best location for people to find you? Well, the best thing is whichever of these four are easiest for you. Number one on YouTube, we do hard things or Mark Drager. I'd love if people subscribe. That's where all of our content drops. If you don't like that, Instagram, you can find me, Mark Drager again. The website is the easiest place, Mark Drager.com, or ultimately, I spent a ton of time on Clubhouse. Now I know a lot of people don't know about Clubhouse per se, but it's a social audio app, and I am there a lot. And so if you want to connect, if you want to chat, if you want to talk, the easiest thing to do is just stalk me and jump into one of my rooms, because they're very open to Mike, I bring everybody up almost. And so we can connect that way on Clubhouse as well. Well, thank you, Mark. I truly appreciate it. Thank you for being here today. Oh, Dan, thank you. This is Cindy Gilman and you're listening to Discovery or Potential. So until next time, do something nice for yourself, but do something nice for someone else.