Wemby Lifts Spurs Over Thunder! Breakdown of the Biggest Plays, and a Preview of the East.

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From the Steph Curry spot to tie the game at overtime. Spurs ended up kind of dominating the second overtime up 1-0. This is now six games. The Spurs are five and one against The Thunder. What can The Thunder do to get their offense on track against this monster who's just spending the whole game lurking on the baseline, freaking everybody out, including Shay Gilgis Alexander, the now two-time consecutive MVP, who had a seven of 23 shaky shooting game. They just can't get a rhythm against this team. How much trouble are The Thunder in? How much trouble is the world in with Victor Wembenyama already being maybe the best player in the NBA? Certainly on track to be the best player in the NBA. If not now, then like tomorrow and just a two-way performance, the likes of which you will not see very often in your life. Rob Mahoney is here to help us with all that, plus a quicky Nick Scads preview. Maybe some winners and losers of the playoffs so far. That's all coming up next on The Zac Lowe Show. The Zac Lowe Show is brought to you by Fandall. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with Fandall and get closer to the action. Fandall is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off. Download the Fandall Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 are over and presidents like states 18 are over in DC. You can talk to your home and gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Welcome to The Zac Lowe Show. Rob Mahoney. Oh my God. What happened last night? What did we witness? Spurs, Thunder. The hype was through the roof and Game 1 somehow exceeded the hype. The Spurs win by some score and double overtime. I don't even remember anymore what the score was. Victor Wembenyama. 45 points. 24 rebounds. Three blocks. Plus 16 in 49 minutes. And Rob, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that that is as great and dominant a two-way basketball game as any human being has ever or could ever play in a setting like this. I don't even like, I don't even know what else to say. I don't even think that's hyperbole. I think we're going to do that a lot today of this was the greatest. This was the most amazing. This is, I mean, I'm ready to go out and say like a game like this is just an amazing display of what modern basketball can be by both teams. Just like the pinnacle of where the sport is right now. But how do you do it better than that? How do you do it better than 49 minutes as a big and a double overtime game and every single second feels like you are having a profound impact on literally everything that's happening on the floor. I don't know. What I do know is the Spurs won the game. They're ahead one zero in the Western Conference finals. They did it without Deere and Fox, the other guy who made the All-Star team for them this year. Like who freaking cares if he plays or not, I guess Dylan Harper had a fantastic game. Stefan Castle had 11 turnovers. I don't even care. I don't care that he had 11 turnovers. I don't care because he's tough as shit and he made a bunch of plays that we'll talk about on both ends of the floor. Wemby just lived at the rim more than I think any game I've ever seen him play. He's just like, I'm not. He took two threes. We'll talk about the one that he made because I think we'll remember it all forever. And before we sort of go through the highlights of the game, you mentioned just the high level of intensity and play in this game. Just an apex NBA apex basketball kind of game stack it up with any kind of like high quality calves, warriors, warriors, rockets in the hardened CP year. Like whatever you think of as this was as high and brilliant display of best while as I've ever seen. This was one of those games. And interestingly, it was a very defense first game. You look at the stats spurs offensive rating 106 per 100 possessions. That would have ranked, I think last in the NBA are close to last in the regular season. The playoffs have been a totally different, much stinger environment. Thunder 102.7 points per 100 possessions. Like that's just that's those are bad numbers, but you look at the process and you're like, these teams are pulling every level possible. They're probably the two best defensive teams in the NBA. The Thunder certainly been number one. And they're just digging as deep as they can into their resourcefulness into whatever bags they have to try and scrounge anything like a good look, especially in the paint. And this is the best they can do. And the spurs are now five and one against the Thunder. And the common theme in those six games is the Thunder just haven't been able to score against Wemba and Yama and this first defense in the in the five regular season games. They had a 109 offensive rating, which is below the average. And again, this is an elite 60, whatever win team last night, 103. And I think as we zoom out and we will zoom out at some point, the biggest question that the Thunder have is, what are they supposed to do on offense to get points? And we know that we know how Wemby, where Wemby is going to be, Wemby is going to be guarding no one. He's going to just be playing his zone. Sometimes they'll be guarding Caruso, sometimes they'll be guarding Dort. Hartenstein, just record time played out of off, off the series, out of the series. Can't be on the floor when Wemby and Yama is on the floor. Because you just like we saw with the Gobert, you can't give him a center whose only role in offense is to screen and dive. And if he's not doing that, he's just hanging out by the dunker spot. It just makes Wemby's life too easy on defense. And just they, I don't know what the answer is. That's the big picture question. But before we get into the nitty gritty, I mean, any big picture thoughts of that ilk or just takes you want to get off before we go? I need a cigarette. Like this, it really feels like, you know, the guy in the air traffic control room on airplane, like I picked the wrong week to stop huffing glue. Like that was every play in overtime and double overtime for me somehow. And it was like the quality of play was just escalating, escalating, escalating. The Thunder played a great game. Like Shaygill, just Alexander wasn't at his like emphatic best and we're going to get into all of the elements of that. But they played well enough to win. They played championship level basketball. It just became so clear in watching this how much all season, frankly, as we did the dance of the nuggets and the wolves and the rockets and the Lakers and all these other teams. Like everybody was playing for a third. It's hard to watch a game like this and not just go through the mental exercise of could anybody have hung in a series like this against these kinds of powerhouses? But even just like what kind of players could the star on your favorite team be locked in in the way that these guys were locked in the way that a random rotation defender in this game was on pinpoint precision for, you know, 49, 45, 50 minutes, depending on how much they played. It's amazing what the demands of a contest like this are and what it tells you about who can hang and who can't because I say, Hearthstein's a great player. He should be able to play in any series. And yet in this one, he's a problem. Chet Holmgren is a hyper versatile weapon in every other matchup. And then he goes up against the Spurs and it's like, what do you do with him on offense? How do we tap into what makes him effective? I love what these teams bring out at each other. I love how dig like how far they already have to dig to find those options. And if you're one of those fans who goes through playoff series, like begging your coach to make some kind of adjustment, begging for some change in rotation. Mark Dagnall already made like 15 different modifications over the course of this game in the in the search for something. So like it's going to be a fascinating to want to watch just the tactics evolving in real time. I've spent the last two months every four podcasts. I'm like, I can't wait to see if they try their version of the death lineup. I've wonder if they've been saving it for a series like this. And that lineup to remind people is SGA, AJ Mitchell, Caruso, who I don't even know what the fuck happened with Alex Caruso last night. Just a body experience. J Dubb, who came back and looked pretty good and Chet, that lineup played three minutes in the entire regular season. To your point about Dagnall, nine minutes in one game against the Spurs in the Western Conference finals, plus three. And yet the search for offense continues. None look Caruso like, oh, footnote, 14 three point attempts. He's going to be treated like the Celtics like the Bucks treated Grant Williams in that famous game seven. They're just going to let him shoot like if he wants to. I wrote in my notes in the first quarter, I have a Google doc for every series. The notes for this one are, I think a mental institution would probably want to take a look at them and be like, you, you, this is problematic. How just whatever is going on here. But somewhere in the first quarter, I wrote, they're going to make him take twenty threes in this game. And they made him take 14 and he made it from 31 points in like 17 amazing plays. They still lost. I just want to review. Dylan Harper, 20 years old, 47 minutes. Twenty four points, 11 rebounds, six assists and seven steals. He had an and one in the second overtime when he just blew through shade. Gilder sounds in there like it wasn't even there and finished at the rim. And it's like, oh, 20 years old. Sure. Just bullied the two time MVP. Awesome. Like possession didn't go anywhere. Give the ball to Dylan Harper. Fine. Also are like kind of point guard here. Go guard J Dub for significant portions of this game. Like not worried about it. Twenty years old. No big deal. Steph Castle, a modest five of 14, 11 turnovers, also 11 assists and has just understood both of these guards have understood the entry passes that are too hard to make in 99.9 percent of basketball situations by which I mean pick and roll, switch, when be rolls to the rim, your big guy rolls to the rim and you're directly like you're you're parallel. I don't know. It's a straight on pass, like a very tough angle, straight on entry pass. A big defender's fronting it. You normally can't make that pass. They've all understood now. Oh yeah, we can just make any pass. He's going to go up and get it. And great defense as always. We'll talk about that. It will be lost to history. Devin Vasell 51 minutes, 13 points and a block on Chet Holmgren after an offensive rebound with 45 seconds left in double overtime and the spurs up for where I just like, Caruso misses a reverse layup, the Wemby effect brutal and Chet gets the rebound of Devin Vasell doesn't box him out, but makes up for it very quickly. And it just looks like, oh, this is going to be a dunk and Devin Vasell goes straight up at the rim and just fucking swatched Chet Holmgren. I'm just these, these young guys are, are, are unbelievable and the spurs are up one Oh, I don't know what else to say Rob before we get into the, whatever. Let's give Devin Vasell a quick moment here because I think we're going to get into the Wemby stuff so deep. We're going to get into all of these like huge impactful scoring performances and I think Devin Vasell is a really important breakthrough score for the spurs too. Like you dedicate so much attention to Wemby and Dylan Harper and Stefan Cas on particular that he ends up getting some really painful buckets for opposing teams. But that block and he's, he's had a bunch of these throughout this playoff run where he's not a guy who racks up steals and blocks, but the impact plays he does make on defense are top shelf shit, like absolutely elite in the moment, except no substitute sort of defensive impact. He can be that guy. He's not that guy every second he's on the floor. He's not a go to stopper for 50 minutes. But man, I, I have learned not to underestimate who Devin Vasell can be on defense and how just how vital he can feel in a game like this. And he's had a lot of great contested rebounds and gang rebounds and tip out rebounds. Like he has just decided, I probably came into the league with ambitions to be a 20 point score. You know, I'm an ace jump shooter, all that. My defense wasn't where it needed to be. And now I'm on this team like, Oh, this is what they need me to do. If we win, everyone gets the glory, everyone gets the credit. Let me amp up that into my game. And he's done all that. Okay. I want to go through this a little differently. This is just plays I want to embed in my brain forever from this game. We're going to go more or less from the end to the beginning and just like, let's just riff on like, you may have forgotten some of these. I had to rewatch the game this morning to remember these. This is me to my brain. Please remember these. Are you ready? I am ready. I had a feeling this pod might turn into like a Chris Farley show style. Do you remember this play? That was awesome. But like, let's just lean into the bit. Let's just make it the structure of the show. Uh, yes. I love the Chris Farley show. I used to joke that, uh, if I ever get Diana Terrasi on the Zach Lowe show, it will just be the Chris Farley show with Diana Terrasi as the guess. As it should be. Um, and this is just let's name some guys, except let's name some plays. Basically, I'm going to start in the first overtime and I'm going to start before the shot that everyone will remember forever. I think this will also be forgotten to history. And I wonder what your reaction to it was about 40 seconds left in overtime, overtime one, the thunder somehow are up by three, even though it felt all game. Like they were just desperately searching for any kind of production on offense or up by three. They got to stop. Shay has just had an incredible dunk to put them up by three. Champagne misses a three on the other end. They get the ball back and with 35 seconds left and 11 on the shot clock up three. Jalen Williams takes a contested, leaning, fading two pointer from the left elbow. Again, with 11 on the shot clock that in the moment, like it's when you're watching these games, you're both friends. You're trying to be analytical, but you're also frenzy because of how tense it is. In the moment I was like, Oh, I don't, I don't quite love that. And we'll talk about what happened next, but do you read? Can you visualize that shot? And like, what do you remember thinking at the time? Cause like, what am I, so I'm going to blame him for, you know, what is he going to, I want him to hold the ball for eight more seconds and take a worse shot. I think I do at frankly, I can visualize the shot you're talking about. I do remember thinking the moment, oof, like that is a tough look in this moment, but it's been a game of tough looks and you're right about there not being a guaranteed you're going to get anything better than that. I give J.Dub a pass for that sort of thing because I thought he played just like an unbelievably like fearless game for coming back in, not, you know, having missed a bit of the playoffs coming off the injury. Welcome back to this game. Seriously. And he didn't show like any hesitation in terms of going like all like full physicality, full speed plays all night. He came up with so many like really gutsy moments that can you blame a guy for trying to come up with one that's a little bit ill advised? A shot clock violation probably would have been better in, even in real time. I thought that, but still 11 on the shot clock was too early. But again, he also, I can't remember exactly when it happened. It might have been on that shade dunk. He got like Castle just straight up shoved him in the back and he fell out of bounds. Remember, it looked for a second like he had aggravated his leg injury and thank God he was fine. That was probably should have been a foul. I don't even remember when it happened. My brain is broken. Okay. Immediately following the J.Dub miss. This you will have no problem visualizing. No. Victor Wembenyama makes the Steph Curry three from maybe like a foot or two inside the Steph Curry logo shot from all those years ago. And I think the entire world blacked out for a second. There were 26.3 seconds on the clock when he, when it went through the net. So he effectively got them a two for one, which almost ended up getting them the game. We'll talk about that. I mean, do you think he, I didn't see his post game comment yet. Do you think he took that shot thinking two for one thinking we're down three? This is as good of a look as I'm going to get to try to tie the game. And of course he spends the entire game playing the way everybody wants him to play. Yes. Rim, rim, rim, not taking any threes. He takes one from a million feet out and makes it. And I'm just sitting there like the crowd went dead silent. The broadcast almost went dead silent rather than Reggie Miller laughing. Just go falling. Yeah. I mean, it's just an all time shot. It's up there with the Steph logo shot. It's up there with the best of clays 11 threes in that arena. It's, it's, I mean, it's not the Kyrie shot, which won the championship basically, but it is, it's not the Ray Allen shot in terms of leverage and stakes, but it's up there with almost any shot in this kind of setting ever considering the guy is seven, five. It's the Western Conference finals and you're down three. The Steph shot is, is the obvious comp like a point of comparison as you raised in park as the arena in park as it's like, man, if only we got another double bang here for Wemby. But also the fact that you're getting that shot in a bigger moment with, with the greater stakes from a guy who has basically been playing like Shaq all night. Like that feels like, forget unicorns for a second. The past and future of basketball collapsing on itself in a singular moment of like who Victor Webanyama is and can't be the fact that he can do all of this all game, be dunking on everybody, be ruining Chet's life. And then pull up for a shot like this. I do think the two for one is probably on his mind because to be honest, it is drilled into like every young player from the second they get in the NBA these days. And he was on top of so many details in this game. I'm willing to believe that. I also think he is the kind of player who is so selective and so devastating in when, in when he does deviate from what the smart play is. Like he did spin the vast majority of this game doing that exact right thing all night, rim running hard, fighting for every offensive rebound, doing a lot of thankless stuff that the Spurs need him to do. He also had to play earlier. I think he was in the fourth where he caught it in the paint double teamed by case and Wallace and Chet. And it's like, you should pass this ball out. Like this is a pass you should make. It's an easy basketball play. You have a wide open shooter and he just like lowered a shoulder into Chet and it went up straight through him and finished in a way that is not the technical right basketball play, but it's something that is ultimately more psychologically damaging. And so it happened with 10 minutes. It was on my list. So we could just do it now. It happened with 10 minutes left in the fourth quarter thereabouts. It was a Harper Wemby pick and roll. They switched it. Case and Wallace, I guess I don't remember was the guy who switched on to them. They lob it over the front. He catches it. Chet meets him on the catch from the dunker spot on the catch. Right there. He's in a sandwich. He's in a sandwich and he takes one, he puts the ball on the floor, takes one dribble and kind of just shoulder in the chest, the Chet's stomach and chest moves him out of the way and puts the ball in the basket. You're like, okay, I don't know. What am I supposed to do now? It's Chet Holmgren. It's not like he just moved away. But like, like, I don't know, Nicole, Nicole Avuchovitch, he was Chet Holmgren. He was like, it wasn't even there. And that's the part of Wemby that I really and truly love is yes, he wants to take the big shots. We've seen him throughout this playoff run. Anytime there's like a momentum three to take, he will usually take it. But he also wants to take the shots and make the plays that fucking break teams. And that's what this felt like is one that what do you do after the night he's had, after how dominant he's been on both ends, if he can also just step out and do this, if he can show the discipline to do all the right things, but also make it hurt in just that specific way where you have nothing to do about it. You know, as the game was unfolding and J Dubb misses that shot and Victor is bringing the ball up, there was a suddenness to that decision. Like my brain was or my brain was thinking, okay, what is he going to do? What's the play? What are they going to get? And then he was shooting. My brain was not ready for him to shoot. And then he was shooting. And then it went in and it was like, what just happened? It was a very like weird cognitive. He was just the action was ahead of what my brain was processing. Yes. Do you think famous Thunder Paul George was anywhere on a couch being like that was a bad shot? You know, I thought about couch repercussions several times in this game and just people who are just our shivers going down their spine, even if they're not watching the game. And we were going to do when we still could do it winners and losers of the playoffs so far at the end of this podcast. But one of my losers was going to be the Hawks slash Zachary Riesichet and the Rockets slash Reed Shepherd watching Steph Castle do stuff like Steph Castle is doing. And just what a sliding doors moment that third, I think Reed Shepherd is going to be a nice NBA player. Don't get me wrong. But the Rockets and the Spurs both have ambitions to win right now. And in that draft, they both had a shot to get Steph Castle. One team got him, one team didn't. And one team is in the Western Conference finals and one team's not. And Emeo Doka clearly had a love, not love, not trust, trust sometimes relationship with Reed Shepherd. Anyway, after the Wemby shot. Yes. Paul George is always feeling whether it's whenever Dane does something, Paul George feels something shiver down his spine. It's just he's got a lot going on. I then I went to bed after the game and after watching some clips. I can't sleep. My wife is annoyed as hell because I'm just keeping the whole house up, walking around, pacing around, not sleeping. And I'm thinking, wait a second, wait a second. I remember the Victor three and I remember the sideline out of bounds to Steph Castle that Caruso breaks up at the end of the first overtime to go into a second overtime. What was it that happened in between? And my brain just like totally forgot what happened in between on the Thunder's possession. And what happened was J Dubb had a wide open, not wide open and open right wing three on a kick from SGA with five seconds left to basically win the game. And my brain, because it was such a mundane play, it's nothing is mundane. It just looked like normal basketball compared to a seven, five guy pulling up from Steph range and Caruso breaking up and out of bounds play that my brain was just like, we don't have space in our memory to memory. Hold this one. So I watched it this morning. It's a pretty goddamn clean look. And again, some threes go in, some threes don't, but just, you know, I want my brain to remember like, Oh yeah, there was like a pretty normal late game three pointer to basically win it for O.K.C. that just just like front rim, backboard and out. I mean, that's the agony of a game like this, right? Is every maker, miss three, but also all of those layups and opportunities where, you know, Wemby had these guys kind of seeing ghosts or looking over their shoulder. Like it could be that shot or you could flash backwards and find like a missed Alex Caruso layup where he finally got past Wemby and then just like smoked it because you never really lose that guy. There's a million plays of which everything fell apart. That one though is tough. I mean, like that, that is the kind of look you're hoping for on the other Jada possession. Right. It's like, can you play process a little bit more? Can you get into the flow a little bit more? Can you get something a little cleaner? And they finally did and they missed it anyway. And then of course at the end of overtime, the lob to castle that Caruso breaks up clean. Just punted that thing. Live, I thought, Oh, is that going to be a foul and we're going to have a debate? And it wasn't, I don't think there was any foul at all. I think it was a perfectly clean play by Caruso after he had already made like several crazy defensive plays that we'll talk about. We should also say, I just thought a very well-officiated game overall, like some, maybe some calls you'll quibble with, but like they let these guys play. They allowed a lot of physicality. They didn't bait, they didn't reward any of the kind of baiting and complaining that frankly goes both ways. Like Steph Castle is guilty of some of that stuff too. And that really contributed to the feeling of this is an important game. Like for as much as the league in particular tries to drum up interest around the regular season or the NBA cup, like it's very simple. This stuff feels important when it is important and you could sense it every possession of this game in part because of the level of physicality that was allowed. Some of my favorite moments from the officiating were Zach Zarbha reviewing things for flagrants and just kind of quietly lecturing everybody involved that like, no, that's not a flagrant foul, including when Wemby ran into Caruso with two minutes left. I think in the second overtime, Caruso fell over, some embellishment occurred and Dagnall, rather than just being happy that the refs called an offensive foul on Wemby is immediately like, take a look, review it. For a flagrant foul. And so they review it and Zach Zarbha is like, upon review, there was no follow through. There was no wind up. This does not meet the criteria for a flagrant foul. Just let's move on with like, To be fair, all of those reviews in a game like this are like, can we please get J double water break? Can we please let these guys sit down for one second? You think you think I'm missing the real point of the review just to get rest. Okay. Maybe I think you got to buy every second you can in a game like this. Uh, just, and then the last before we take a break, a minute left in double overtime, more or less the basket, um, that end of the game spurs up one. And they did this a couple of times where they would bring Harper and Castle, the two guys that if you're going to help, you're going to help off those guys. They bring them high above the arc on the wings and they have Visella and Champani lower in the corners. A scripted out of time outplay double overtime, about a minute left. And Wemby ducks in on Caruso, I think, and they lob him the entry pass. Caruso goes for the steal, doesn't get it. Chet comes over to help and Wemby just crams on his face for an and one, uh, to put them up by four. And that's, I mean, there's more stuff that happens, but that's more or less the last super meaningful basket of the game. It just a great pass, a great play design, very intentional. And just when he grabs the ball, it doesn't give it back. And to your point, like this guy loves just snatching your soul like that. And that was a soul, soul snatching play. Well, he loves snatching Chet's soul. I think maybe more than most people. And there really is something about Chet, uh, whether it's manufactured or not, whether it's media propelled or not, in terms of the way those two guys were compared over time, he just kind of hulks out whenever Chet is in the vicinity. And the number of baskets he just scored straight over the top of one of the best defenders in the world is kind of like shocking to watch. And yet I don't know what you're supposed to do about it. Like Chet is in the right positions. He's trying to contest those shots. The Thunder are trying to use him in a kind of a similar roving capacity. And it's like, what do you do? Like what, what are you supposed to do if those like entry passes are that precise? If you're able to thread the needle over an Alex Caruso front and contest in time for Victor to catch it, turn and dunk over the top of Chet Holmgren. If that's the case, you're just going to lose in games like this. Like that's just going to, if that's what the battleground looks like, I'm not sure there's enough margin for hair for anyone, including the defending champions. So to your point about just the insanity of how big he is, a couple of other plays I wanted to just review for fun. There was one in the third quarter was again out of a time out. It was essentially the same play that I just described Harper and Castle are lifted up to the wing, the shooters are in the corners, duck in its J Dub guarding him this time. They throw the lob and J Dub jumps with like all his might. He's fronting, but he jumps with all his might. He reaches as high as he possibly can go to tip the ball. And in my notes, I wrote, he reminds me of like a younger sibling or the run of your childhood friend group. When someone taunts him by holding up the thing that he wants, he's like, you can reach it. You can get it anytime you want. Go ahead and reach it. Go ahead. And you can't reach it because the guy's too big. And then I think it was in double overtime. He was 250 left in double overtime. The spurs were up to somebody. Miss I think Castle, Mr. Three J Dub boxed out Victor Wimbanyama in the paint and he just got the Billy Madison offensive. He reached up over his head, took the ball. J Dub is looking up like this. Like he's staring up at a skyscraper or an eclipse or something. And Victor just grabs the ball like two feet above J Dub's head and puts it back in to put them up by force. What am I supposed? You can feel his pain. J Dub's pain. Like, this is a textbook box out. What else am I supposed to, can someone else come in here and help me? Cause I can't do anything other than this. He's just big boying these dudes like, like a bully. It's not nice. I thought there were so many of those textbook moments and this kind of contributes to the high level of play overall. Like there were guys like J Dub doing the exact right things, textbook precision in terms of the box out. There are also so many possessions where it's like watching the thunder navigate the spurs like staggered screens. And it's like a tag. It's like a touch and recover buried within a switch. Like they are navigating this stuff as well as a defense possibly can. And then you see it and it's just like, oh, they get the ball to Wemby anyway. Or Stefan Castle throws like a crazy cross court pass to an open shooter in the weak side corner because the low man had to cheat over to help to like body Wemby on the way. I really don't know what you're supposed to do. J Dub, I thought he fronted Wemby well. I thought he guarded Wemby well. I thought he boxed out Wemby well. It's just none of it meant anything. And what you're supposed to do psychologically to pick up after a game like that, what you're supposed to do in the Thunder coaches meeting to say like, okay, how do we do the stuff we wanted to do better? There really isn't a lot of room for that. Well, I mean, to that point, again, the spurs offensive rating was 106 in this game, which would have been last or like bottom three in the NBA for the regular season. And with Wemby on the floor, it was 109, which is better. But like the bottom line is the Thunder's defense did its job despite how some of these highlights look. The Thunder defense was totally up to par up to the task. They just couldn't score enough to win the game. And we're going to talk about what the answer is if any they have. But let's take a quick break now. And then there just can you indulge me? There's just a few other plays that I want to run through. Just let's name some plays. Name some guys after this. Zach Lo Show is brought to you by FanDuel. And FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long with more ways to build and more value every time you play. You can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment from spreads to player points to threes and more build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays, this NBA postseason bet them on FanDuel. More options, better payouts, all NBA playoffs long. Head to FanDuel.com slash low to get started. FanDuel, play your game. 21 over in select states, 18 over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem called 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Mikalob Ultra. The playoffs are almost here. My favorite thing about the NBA playoffs, the intensity and the strategy. Every game is treated like a must win game. Even when a team is up 3-0, every quarter, every half has a new adjustment that you've got to really be dialed in to track. Oh, that guy is guarding that guy now. Why are they doing that? How is the other team going to counter that? It's the chess match that we don't really see quite as much of in the regular season. It's dialed up from the opening tip of game one in the playoffs. Playoffs are just awesome in the NBA. You know what else is just as great? Opening up a new bottle of Mikalob Ultra. It's refreshing light with only 95 calories plus is the official beer partner of the NBA. They're giving fans a chance to win court side tickets, unique prizes and more. Mikalob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at mikalobultra.com slash court side. Mikalob Ultra court side 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open U.S. residence 21 plus begins on October 1st, 2025 and ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. Official rules at mikalobultra.com slash court side for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. All right. Some more plays that I want my brain to remember. A minute and 10 seconds left in the fourth quarter. It's 97, 97. I wonder if you remember this. One of these quiet, it's not quiet, it's loud, but it will get lost in the shuffle. 97, 97. Castle Wemby pick and roll switch. They throw the lob. End up steals the entry pass. Two on one. It's SGA and I think Caruso and SGA decides I'm going. I'm the MVP. I'm going. It's tied. I'm in my arena. And Steph Castle goes step-for-step with him. Kind of gets like one hand on the ball or near shea and forces him to double clutch and take like a lefty layup that he releases on the way down and he misses it. And it's one of two transition defense plays by the Spurs to break up two on ones late in the game that is just as clutched defensive plays. He didn't block it. He didn't get a steal. He did just enough to disrupt the layup. And the other one, I have to find the other one. The other one was Champani. And it was in the first overtime with 3 and 15 left, 103, 101 Spurs. Steph Castle threw like a wild turnover. And it was Caruso and J Dubb and a two on one. And J Dubb took it to the rim and Champani, not known as a defender, stripped the ball. It went out of bounds off Chet's foot. So it was Spurs ball. I mean, two, and you can freeze frame those two on ones and say, was there a spacing right? Should they have passed the ball? But you have in the first one, Castle and elite defenders stride for stride. And on both of them, multiple Spurs that are flying back where if you try to make that pass to the wing, they're going to be able to disrupt the shot. But just like sensational all out balls to the wall. This is what it demands in the Western Conference Finals and clean plays. Yes. I know for a fact it's Caruso and SGA because I have written in my notes, I can't believe Castle blew up at SGA Caruso two on one. And he not only got it kind of on the way down, but Steph Castle is so good at this where he's clearly, you know, as a smaller guard, he's going to take the bump. And sometimes you're going to actually create separation when you do. He'll get bumped back a little bit and he doesn't stay fully vertical. Like he actually does come down with his arm, but his hands are so incredible. He manages to do that without fouling. He manages to actually get a strip, he managed to actually bother or get in your line of sight, even when he doesn't have like the textbook perfect execution of that play. I'm in awe of Steph Castle. And I think this is one of those games where if you're just looking at the box score, you could probably focus on the 11 assists to 11 turnovers and be like, man, that must have been a really messy game from him. I think it was mostly a pretty messy game for almost everybody. Like that's just what the standard of defense was. And I will take maybe not all 11 turnovers, like eight of those 11 turnovers because of plays like this. And because of the way they frankly like energize a team, I think the Spurs had this like a really important thing in their corner, which is playing with Wemby emboldens a lot of guys to really go after it in a lot of different ways. I would make the same, same argument for Stephon Castle, where you see that guy bust ass back and transition and blow up a play like this. And then if you are Julian Schippenny, you're thinking, now that's my job too. Now I have to do those things too. I think there's a rising tide effect for all of the Spurs best players, but Castle is like such a charismatic hustler that I think you cannot help, but be kind of pulled in his direction. Unbelievable place. It just, this is what you want out of a game of this level is everyone playing to exhaustion. And by the way, some of those Spurs possessions, when they got the lead and over time, you could tell that, and they were up four and they're milking the clock a little bit, you can tell Wemby is gassed. Like he's, he's hands on knees under the rim and like five on the shot clock. He's like, all right, I got to go duck in now or I got to move out of the way and he'll, he'll move. But like these guys were all gassed at the end of the game as one would expect. But for Wemby in particular, playing 49 minutes with this kind of physicality and with the play to play focus that these guys have to play with, like this is, it would be exhausting to do this for five minutes at a time and to do it as a big with that kind of sustained effort while going to the rim over and over and over, maybe the most understated part of a truly ridiculous Victor Webonyama night was just the fact that he kind of kept going and the effort after effort after effort that came with it. 99, 99 at the end of the fourth quarter, 11 and a half seconds left, enter the ball to Victor at the nail against J Dubb. You're like, Oh, I wonder if he's going to shoot along too. What's going to happen here? Put the ball on the floor, goes right, spins left, makes a one handed floater with his right hand going the opposite way to put the spurs up to 90, a one on one 99, I guess. And you're like, okay, I mean, well, just a fantastic shot. Like what else is there to say? And then Shay ties it on the other end with three seconds left where they run the double Iverson cut. J Dubb runs one way as she comes the other way, catches it at the left elbow and goes and Victor's on shut in the right corner. Hugged pretty close and hugged close. And in real time, I thought my brain did say, why is he not helping? I understand that you're in no threes. Do you can't give up a three? But his superpower is he can be everywhere all at once. And they clearly told him, look, if they make it to, they make it to trust Steph Castle to at least disrupt the shot. And it was not an easy layup. But but we'll take our chances in overtime. Beautiful play design, but were you were you surprised he didn't move at all? I mean, that was a little, I totally understand why it ended up being the right call, but I was still a little surprised. I went through the exact same process of like, wow, that is a wide open shot on a night where she goes to Alexander has had nothing free and clear, nothing easy. And he's just getting all the way to the rim because of that spacing, because Wimby isn't there. I think given the chance to kind of legislate all that again, the Spurs would probably do it the same way. And it probably is the smart thing to do. It is, it was shocking though. And I, again, I think it speaks to the fact that every other drive Victor Webinyama is there. And the one time when he's not, turns out to be a huge play in the game, but it requires an intricate play design. It requires a level of like, we have to respect the shooter in this one particular moment. And unfortunately for the thunder, I don't know how translatable those things are to the rest of the, you know, 47 ish minutes in a regulation game. By the way, Chet Holmgren, eight points and 41 minutes. It's not going to cut it in this series. I mean, do you want to talk about him in greater detail now or later? Do you want to do, we'll do it later. I just, a couple more plays that I want us to all remember in luxury. Aiden, please. 155 in the first overtime. Caruso makes a switch and a steal in midair, deflects a pass from Castle to Webinyama. Just an incredible play, one of 19 he made in the game. And J. Dub gets a run out dunk to put the thunder up 106, 105. Right after that, J. Dub strips Victor Webinyama in the paint, clean defensive play, thunder up one. They have a two on one and it's AJ Mitchell. And I think Chet Holmgren and AJ Mitchell pulls up for a three. And again, they're up one. There's, it's not like milk in the clock is going to do that much good with a minute and 35 left. And the past at Chet is going to be contested and somebody's coming behind them. It's, it's not as easy. It's not like one of those, oh, just throw the ball in the paint. You settled for a three in transition. But I did think, and maybe this is my brain being too conservative. And I've had this discussion with coaches before, there are some coaches in the NBA who would love that shot. Sure. Like, like if we hold it, we'll probably get it contested two 15 seconds later, that's going to be a harder shot. If we take that shot, it's not quite a kill shot, but if it goes in, we have control of the game up four with a minute 30 left. My, maybe my stomach is too old and conservative. I was a little queasy with that shot by AJ Mitchell. I think part of it is because the Thunder felt so reliant on their threes in this game, like the Spurs defense was selling out, not just with Wemby, but with all of the defenders packing the paint, forcing all of these other guys to shoot, forcing so many, they forced so many positions to go to Aaron Wiggins that diagonal had to take him out of the game. And it was like, okay, this is not working. We have to find something else here. I mean, he, they just, Aaron Wiggins was in the strong side corner and they treated him like, I mean, like a Thompson twin, just like, go ahead and shoot. And by the way, I, we'll talk about a little bit more about adjustments, but the ESPN box score, poor Isaiah Joe is not even in the ESPN dot.com box score to the point where I woke up and I checked the box score and I was like, wait, did I hallucinate that he was in for one possession in the game? He played, so then I checked the NBA.com box score. He was in for 16 seconds. They just may need to play more like all shooting everywhere lineups and we'll get to that, but I did, I'm just, this game made me so crazy that I literally thought I hallucinated Isaiah Joe minutes. Like I was on an LSD trip or something. No, he actually did play. Um, okay. And then the AJ Mitchell misses a three. And then we have the wild sequence. Spurs get the ball down one. That's Champani misses a three. And Victor Weminiama gets the easiest offense and rebound of his entire life. Shay is the only one near him and he gets it. And he could do any number of things with it. He could put back, dunk it. He could bring the ball down and no one other than Shay is close to him and go back up and dunk it and maybe get fouled. Instead, he tries this like flying one handed, pretty under control, but one handed airborne put back tip that misses. And I remember being shocked at how uncontested it was, shocked at his choice, shocked that he missed. And then the ball like bounces around a million times and Caruso throws it off somebody's foot, another Caruso play, but that tip, it's just one of many moments from the game where I froze. I was like, what just, what just happened? What did he do? Why didn't he dunk it? What's going on in the game? I mean, it's, I think further proof that all is not lost for the thunder too. It's like one of those bounces goes a little differently on another Victor Web & Yama put back possession. And all of a sudden this game doesn't go to overtime to begin with. Like there's enough of those that you just need a couple of things to go right. Even though it seems like with Victor, nothing can go right for the thunder right now. And then there, after that, there was the Harper and one that I talked about earlier. I mean, Jesus Christ, Dylan Harper. Just ferocious. Okay. Let's get to the big picture stuff. Why don't we go here? Six games, five one spurs. Thunder have been unable to, to figure out this defense. We mentioned some of the lineups and other things they tried in this game. I mean, you want to say like, well, there's got to be some adjustment, you know, if Victor is guarding this guy, then you put him in the pick and roll or use him as a ball handler. And it's like Victor is just going to do what Victor wants to do. He's going to be where he wants to be. And you really can't control him in that way because if he's on Carusula, if he's on Caruso on the corner, like, yeah, sure, bring Caruso up in the pick and roll, use him as a ball handler. He's a guard, use him as a screener. He's just going to say, you take Caruso, I'm going to stay down here. And I'm not really sure what tactical adjustments there are for that, for a guy like this, but just big picture. The thunder are not going to win this series if they don't score a little bit more. They're not going to score a lot more because this seems too good. They generated 21 turnovers last night. That didn't even help them get a good enough offensive rating. How can they loosen this up? With their offense. I do think some of it is lineup related. I mean, you talked about the shooting. I thought the Jared McCain minutes were like a really nice pop for them for exactly this reason, like, who can you put on the floor that the Spurs do have to respect and do have to hug a little more tightly to the perimeter? Cause right now it's basically no one. If you freeze frame some of these shape possessions where he has the ball at the top, if he's not getting double team, it's insane. There's, there's just swarming him from everywhere. Completely. And even if they're playing back, it's like four guys just outside the paint, basically like playing four corners, preventing him from getting anywhere near the rim. That's not going to be tenable. Like you have to stretch it out even just a little bit. I thought McCain was good in terms of providing some of that space. Also in transition, like he's a guy who really goes for it when those opportunities are there, but Shay is a part of this too. And I wonder how much of it is just the familiarity of seeing this fully activated version of the Spurs a couple of times, or maybe even one game is enough before he starts kind of reading the floor a little bit differently. Um, I found it hard with an optimized television broadcast angle to fully understand sometimes like, Oh, is this, is the hard double going to come for Shay here? Is it going to be that kind of soft looming double where they're, they're gently pressuring him to give up the ball? Is this a quasi like hybrid zone that they're running on this possession, which the Thurs, uh, the Spurs were mixing in later in the game. I can't even imagine to be in Shay's point of view, what that read feels like, where you're trying to break down the shell of the defense and also Victor behind it. It's a lot. And I thought even for someone who had, you know, what, 12 assists to four turnovers in this game did a lot to kind of spur the playmaking. I pardon the pun along as, as the thunder went through this thing, but he has to be able to kind of parse what is happening a little more cleanly. And that's the kind of thing that just, it happens with experience. It happens with film. It happens with, even though they did play five times in the regular season, all of those games had weird caveats where when B was coming off the bench or guys were injured or AJ Mitchell was out, is like, there was always something happening. And it's like, okay, now everyone is full strength. What are the pictures of the game look like to you on a play by play basis? And I think Shay is just going to have to be a little cleaner in the way that he reads them. And he's good. I think it was seven of 23. And I'll talk about how those shots are, a lot of them are very contested and the Spurs are making some of his pet shots much more difficult than usual. Yes. But on a very basic level, he's going to have to make more of the clean shots that he gets. And last night, you know, there were three or four, but it's like, oh, I mean, it's as clean as it is. It's going to get there was a floater and overtime, I think with like three 30 left where he got in there pretty clean and it was a good look. And he usually makes it. There was the layup we talked about. There were like, there was a wide open, like six footer off of it. I think what I say was an Alex Caruso pass. And it's just like, that's a, that's as much of a gimme as you're going to get. And he was just, just enough off his rhythm all night that he couldn't hit it. Yeah. Not all 23 of his shots are super difficult Spurs contested shots. Let's say there are five that are pretty clean by Spurs defense standards. He was one of five and he needs to be three of four or four or five in these games. So to your point about the shooting, and I think that's what's it out to me is, you know, I remember saying in the regular season after the Christmas game with Kirk, I think on the pod that this is not a great dork matchup. Like if he's not going to guard Wemby a lot and he guarded him a little bit in this game, this is a quickness based Spurs team and not a power based Spurs team in the back corner. I mean, they have power, but they're both frankly, and there's just not a great Dortmund like he guarded Fox a lot in the regular season and Dork guard anybody is very good. But it's a tough Dort series. And if you're going to go all shooting all the time, the minutes, the guys who suffer minutes wise is are going to be Dort and, you know, Wiggins, maybe, and there's just not that many other choices, but more McCain, Joe might have to play. Who else suffers in this, in this equation? Maybe Hartenstein even more. Like, yeah, you can't be Caruso. Caruso is making his shots and it's too valuable. I think too valuable defensively, even when he does it. And really the argument to keep playing Lutord any significant amount is just kind of like, you can't play Alex Caruso every minute. You can't play case and Wallace every minute. And especially if you're going to start smaller, which the Thunder might in game two, Dort is going to have to play a semi significant role, I would think even still. And other than that, like tactically, I mean, I guess if they're going to load up on Shay like that, there's got to be stuff you can do, you know, flare screens, cuts, you know, a little bit more juice and variety now that you've seen it once. But like, that's all, it's not like that's rocket science. Like, Spurs haven't seen that kind of stuff before. And yeah, I don't, I mean, it's just hard to score against this guy. And there was a sequence, by the way, back to back possessions, I think, in the middle of the fourth quarter. You know, Shay has made made a meal out of the dead zone baseline long to that's it. That's his pet shot. And there was a back to back sequence in the fourth quarter that's like, man, this is what this series is going to be about. On the first one, he got he beat he got a switch and he's he's hunting like the weaker Spurs perimeter defenders like Keldon Johnson, Julian Champ, any guys you just can't stay with him, even if he's sell a little bit, which is smart. And then he's using that either to ISO or then go into pick and roll with a weaker guy on me. And he got somebody and he ISOed and he went down to the left baseline. And you think it's going to be a clean look when he's over in the opposite corner, but he's tiptoeing over the entire time. And by the time Shay gets to that spot, when he is there and on this particular possession is when he blocked it on the right was the right baseline rather he blocked it. And that was like a holy shit block. I mean, that shot doesn't get blocked. It sure as hell doesn't get blocked by a guy who started the possession in the opposite corner. And it's you think it's the kind of block that if you're Shay even argue with the best player in the world, two time MVP, that's in your head all the time. Like, oh, that guy did that. And I'm like the very next thunder possession left side of the floor, same spot. He gets there. Then he backs it out. And when he just sort of stays in his zone on that side of the floor, a little bit below Shay and Shay revs up and actually gets by him for a layup and makes the layup an absolutely sensational play. Imagine you just get blocked by this monster on your favorite shot. Yep. And on the next possession, you go for the favorite shot again and he's there and you back it out and you assess your options and you decide, I guess the best thing I can do is just drive right at the eight foot wingspan and hope I'm fast enough to sneak this layup off the glass before he gets it. And he did. But that shot is just like, it's super hard for him in this series. I mean, that's what it's going to be. Like, yeah, we can talk about the tactical adjustments, the lineup changes. I do think a lot of it is just going to be tightening up. It's going to be, you know, in game one, you can throw out 11 guys and see who works and then you're going to have to kind of cinch the rotation as you go. But it's going to have to be Shay making MVP level shots against an MVP level opponent, meeting him where he is. And it's not all going to be easy. Even if he does convert a couple of those open looks, relatively open looks, he's going to have to do the contested stuff too. I also like, I was so striking watching the Thunder try to attack Wemby. How many drives were like half drives where they would not just like kick the ball out, but straight up as you're saying, like back it out, just full reverse, kill your dribble, pivot, look for some desperation pass to save you to reset the offense. Like they don't really have even their usual driving kick flow because of Wemby. It's so much like we have to abort this drive and go completely back to the drawing board of the possession. And if they can get anything resembling their usual rhythm, I think it's going to help the shooters as much as anybody. Like the cadence of the offense is a little bit off right now. I do wonder, and Chris Finch talked about this in the last series, if part of it is you just have to go at him a little bit more than you think you do at the basket. Chris Finch talked about this several times, like I just want us to go at him. And if we miss, we miss. And Caruso had a pick and pop three that he passed up and drove into Wemby and finished a layup over him. J Dubb drove at him similarly from the left wing on a three that he passed up and drove into him and missed, but there was an offensive rebounding opportunity behind that miss. And I think that's like, if you drive him and get him out of the way and you crash with some tactical precision, you might be able to get some stuff. And Dort got an offensive rebound when Victor was on him and decided like, oh, if you're just going to ignore me, this is one way I can actually punish you for this. And he got a three out of it. And I think maybe that's part of it. But I mean, the two guys you mentioned you wanted to talk about, Chet. So just talk about Chet. Two of seven took seven shots and two free throws in 41 minutes. And Mitchell took five shots and no free throws in 34 minutes, 12 points combined. I mean, obviously that's not, that's not going to get it done. Like how can they get, when you watch Chet, who's not being guarded by Wemby, who's being guarded by wings, but Wemby's always lurking, like, how can we, what can he do to loosen it up? This is a tough one where I don't know that there's an easy answer. And it's in part because I think the reason the Spurs are so good at neutralizing him is they take away all of his easy stuff, right? Like anything around the basket, Wemby is there and clearly in Chet's head. And the hesitations from Chet, when he does get an offensive rebound, including on that possession that Devon Visele blocked that was basically the dagger, like you can see Chet pause for like a very brief moment. Like I want to collect this ball. I want to go up strong. Like I need, I need to come correct or else this is going to get blocked. And that hesitation is ultimately what dooms him. Everything around the basket is not there. Like the dump off passes are not there. The big to big Isaiah Hartenstein to Chet, like pick and roll, lobs, connecting passes are not there. All of the offensive rebounds are that much tougher. So all of the easy stuff inside is not there. And then I think what's the icing on the cake for the Spurs in that matchup is all of the mid range stuff that Chet has kind of gradually worked into his game over the last couple seasons, like the little kind of drive and turnaround. He straight air balled one of those over a Wemby contest. He got blocked. That's right. I want to say he got blocked on another one. And then also, even if you want to say, okay, all those things, all those things are taken away, at least Chet Holmgren still a really good three point shooter. The Spurs are one of the best close out teams in the league. He got blocked on, on just like a spot up three. And this is a seven footer out there who just because I want to say it was maybe Julian Champagny who closed out, had enough time and can do so aggressively with Wemby behind him. Like you can just kind of take away every, every piece of like bread and butter that Chet relies on to score. And I don't know what the tactical like way to, to open those things back up because some of them are so matchup specific in terms of what it means to have Wemby out there that I think it's just going to be hard for Chet, no matter what you move around. Agreed. And look, I mean, again, this is an incredible, both these teams are incredible defensive teams and they have answers for everything. They're going to try to do. And I think, I said this on bills, pods Sunday, I just want to reiterate it again. You just can't overstate how significant a mid season adjustment it was for Mitch Johnson to pull Harrison Barnes from the starting five and put Julian Champagny, a journeyman, undecorated former two way guy, whatever. Well, undercurated in some places. I think if blogs still existed, well, Julian Champagny would be a blocker hero. That's true. But still, I mean, it's not like Harrison Barnes was playing badly. He had started to swamp and leak oil a little bit after playing a lot of minutes early and obviously he's older and Julian Champagny makes you a little smaller, maybe a little bit more defensively challenged, but it was just a signal to the league. Like we're not going to give you a safe place to put your centers anymore and we're going to make you defend us straight up. And honestly, and Julian Champagny, I mean, if you had said before the season, he's going to play 44 minutes in a Western conference finals game. I think you would have probably been a little surprised by that. And he is every bit ready for it. Yes. He'll have a game in this series too, where he hits like five threes. Like it's coming. He'll have those like drug tests level three point shooting performances. And he's so critical to their formula because of the spacing he provides, but also because even though he is among the most defensive challenge players that they actually rely on in their rotation, certainly in the starting lineup, the baseline for him is still significantly higher than the liability in the starting five on most teams. Like he's holding down a spot. He's doing his job. You don't trust him to guard J-Dub necessarily, but you can trust him to do a role within a team scheme. Just, you're right. The three point, the three point shooting Bonanza game is coming from him at some point on chat. I do wonder, I mean, defensively, like again, just the, the thunder were good enough to win the game. I do wonder if chat on Champani is the right choice for this series. And I've been wondering that all season. I remember after the Christmas game saying, should he just guard Wemby? Like are they over, are they overthinking this? And I don't know if that's the answer because it's not like, you know, that makes life any easier, but it could make your pick and roll defense a little bit more traditional on these Wemby screens. By the way, Wemby set 45 ball screens last night, most in any game ever for him. His prior high was 32. Now obviously this is a double overtime game, more minutes, all that, even per a hundred possessions screens per hundred possessions. This was his highest game ever. So clearly they're leaning into this and they scored according to the genius IQ, second spectrum, whatever tracking data, 1.2 points directly out of those plays, 1.3 points per possession. And at least that would simplify it. Or do you try them on Castle? That's the only other safe place in the starting five really, not it's not safe. Castle has really like defeated that scheme over and over. But if he's on Champs Penny, he can't really roam as effectively because he's on the best or second best shooter on the floor for the other team. And the Spurs got several open or semi open corner threes because he's, he's straying a little bit too far off Champs Penny or Vassil in the corners. And again, their defense wasn't the problem, the Thunder's defense, but I do wonder, I'm curious where we will see Chet in game two. Yeah. I agree with you that Champs Penny is not a great place for him. There aren't great options. I think part of the reason they're keeping him out of that Wemby matchup is because, especially when Caruso's out there, the Thunder do feel very comfortable having like the J. Dub Caruso switch if they need to. Like maybe you don't want to every time, but you have the option it's available to you. That's the point of putting wings. There's a multiple reasons people put their wings on Wemby. One of them is if we have another wing and we can just switch your best pick and roll combo, but they're beating that switch with the over the top entry passes over and over again. Completely. And so, and I think the question is like, would Chet be any more successful fronting in some of those situations, or would you even want him to, or does having the kind of even looming possibility that he could break up the line from behind valuable in that way? I also like, you know, we saw Hartenstein start on stuff like Stefan Castle as many Spurs opponents have done with their bigs. I'm still a little confused why if Harper is available in the lineup, teams aren't trying the same thing with Dylan Harper. To me, like you can argue about who's the better shooter. I think Dylan Harper is a much more reluctant three point shooter. He doesn't want to take the early shot when it swings to him out on the perimeter for three. Like he wants to probe, he wants to attack. It's one of the best parts of his game. I think there is a possibility you could put Chet on him in select situations and live with some of the drives, try to contain that action otherwise, but especially if they're going to be playing smaller, I think you could move some stuff around and try to be creative with it. But Champagnes is probably not the best spot to start. And again, it should be mentioned, Fox missed the game. We don't know if he's going to play in game two. That changes a lot of things in terms of the Spurs rotation. And if he misses game two, one of the things that I would, I would like the Spurs to do as much as possible is when Wemby rests and by Wemby and Shay are resting at the same time. So I don't, I wonder what the reason for that is. I wonder if it's Dagnalt signaling. I don't think we can score against Wemby without Shay on the floor. So we need to like almost attach them to each other. So you read it as Wemby's coming out, Shay, as the, is the adjustment to Wemby coming out versus, I mean, the opposite could be true too. No, that's true. I don't know. We'll see what the patterns are. But I liked that when Wemby rests and those cornet minutes were the Thunder won those minutes. I want the Spurs, I want this was to have two of their ball handling guards on the floor when Wemby's not on the floor because I don't want the offense to stall out. But that's, I guess we'll see what happens. Trying to think anything else on this game before we move on. I mean, my God. Oh, the other thing is like the Spurs have really, and I think this is a story around the league. Like when I watched the Spurs in particular and they run these staggered screens and they run these castle pick and rolls and talked about how Harper doesn't want to shoot early threes. Castle is willing to do it and has made him in the playoffs. I'm like, man, these teams cannot get under these screens. I think the Spurs have devised lots of ways to make it really hard to set up your defense and prepare to get under a screen. Castle's obviously a beast where if you do go under, he can just power through you and score Harper can too. But I think league wide offenses have gotten really, like we're far from the days where every team would just go under on Rageon Rondo and it was like the Celtics couldn't do anything about it. And it was like it's really, offenses have really matured and schemed to like it's hard to get under these picks is tempting as you want to say, well, just go under, just go under. Sometimes you just can't do it. The Rondo comparison, I think is a great point. And it's to me, one of the reasons why watching this game, which is obviously like a great playoff game, a great game of basketball, but it was great in ways that felt so different from a 2010s game, from a 2000s game, from a 90s game. This felt so modern and distinct in terms of the matchup play, in terms of the defenses, in terms of like the way that everything was evolving and changing shape to deal with Wemby as it went. And I think part of the reason those pick and rolls are so hard to guard too for the Spurs is like Wemby has really improved as a screener in terms of the contact he makes. And I think part of it is the understanding, especially in a game like this, like you talked about just the volume of ball screens he was setting. All of that was in a lot of cases just like preamble to like, how do we get Victor Webonyama close to the basket period? Not to hit him on the roll necessarily, but like if he's going to try to walk or run to the rim, Alex Krusa is going to draw like three more charges on him. He's also picking him up basically when he crosses half court and just like body bumping him and hand checking him the whole way as you should do to wear down a big when you're guarding him as a small. And so it's like, that is the clean release where Wemby gets to just like, get a little closer to the rim, reset the offense, get those entry passes we were talking about. And the fact that the Spurs execute that stuff with all of the patience and precision that they do for a bunch of like 20 year olds and 22 year olds out there who are making this work is just phenomenal. Like I really can't say enough about ultimately the discretion of the way that the Spurs are playing right now, starting with Wemby and the shots he's willing to take and not, but also the guards too. I mean, again, Dylan Harper's 20 and he had 24 points. Yeah, he only shot eight of 20 only quote unquote, seven of 13 on twos. That's great. To have a 20 year old combo guard, point guard, whatever you want to call them in a game against the best defense in the NBA, the number one turnover forcing team in the NBA with a bullet gets you six assists and seven steals and commit one turnover is just audacious stuff from a rookie guard to win, to have him win you that part of the possession game. He's part of it. That dramatically forcing seven live ball turnovers and committing one turnover total is crazy. It's nuts. I could go, we could go for two hours on this series. Fair. Let's take a quick break and we'll get more chances to do it. Let's take a quick break and then we'll finish up with some others. This episode is brought to you by Expedia and Visit Scotland. Start your story in Scotland. Experience the pool of wide untamed landscapes and fresh cuisine that feels rooted in place. Discover castles steeped in legend and feel the genuine warmth from locals you meet in a place that will stay with you long after you leave. Start planning your own Scottish holiday today at Expedia.co.uk slash Visit Scotland. I go small when you can go grand. Meet the new Vauxhall Grandland Griffin, striking alloys, sleek black roof, heated front seats and 10 inch touchscreen. Everything you need for life on the move. Grand on style, grand on tech, grand on value. And during the Vauxhall sales event, get a grand off the new Grandland Griffin or any other new Vauxhall on top of all other offers. Search Vauxhall Car Offers. Offer to private individuals £1,000 including the AT saving on new car orders between 15 to 35th of May. Search to birth at the June, 20, 2018 plus season C supply. Stuff. All right, I am headed to the world's most famous arena for game one. There's another series going on. The Knicks are playing the Cavaliers in the Eastern Conference Finals and today's Knicks Cavs preview is presented by State Farm. Whether it's ball or life, nothing beats a great game plan. It's like a world-class coach drawing up an inbound play. State Farm is there to draw up the right plan for you and help you get the personalized coverage for whatever comes your way. But more on that later for now. I'm here to assist you with the playoffs and so is Rob Mahoney. Knicks Cavs. By the skin of their teeth, the Cavs are here. Two seven game series wins. It's the Donovan Mitchell Bowl. The road not taken for the Knicks. A rematch between Jalen Brunson and Donovan Mitchell after the 2022 playoffs between the Jazz and the MADS which changed the course of history for those franchises and those players. The Knicks signed Jalen Brunson and then did not give the Jazz everything they wanted for Donovan Mitchell. The Cavs did and the Knicks then used a lot of those assets on the Kail Bridges who will be guarding Donovan Mitchell for a lot of this series. Let's just be quick because this game is tonight. I think the Knicks are favored. I'm going to pick the Knicks in six to win the series. Same. And I just think they're rolling and it will be as healthy and they can put two of Bridges and an Obi-an-Heart on Mitchell and Hardin. They can put the third of them on Mowbly and switch all the pick and rolls with Mowbly. Cat can be on Jared Allen. The Cavs are going to attack Cat relentlessly in the pick and roll. They've really gotten smart about that and Cat's foul trouble always looms as an issue. They're going to hunt Brunson. The Knicks are well versed in that. Brunson will head against Donovan Mitchell and honestly, I would at least if I were the Knicks experiment with, let's see if James Hardin can actually do damage against Jalen Brunson on a switch because he really couldn't get by Duncan Robinson. He could not. He's obviously bigger than Jalen Brunson, but Jalen Brunson is not easy to bully. And on the other end of the floor where the Knicks have the ball, I do think the Cavs in the last regular season game they played, which is the only one with Hardin, the only one after the trade deadline, I do think they found some answers really for not the first time, but they've been up and down against the Knicks the last couple years, but they put Dean Wade on Jalen Brunson, Jared Allen hit on Josh Hart and Evan Mowbly guarded Cat, and they switched the Brunson Cat two man game, which has been killing teams and they don't put their centers on Cat. They put their centers on Josh Hart and that kind of worked for them. But that gets to question number one is like, is Dean Wade even starting this series or are they now all in with Max Struz starting and can you duplicate that with Struz on Brunson? So some interesting matchup options. I'm going to go Knicks and Six. I just trust the way they're playing a little bit more. But what do you think of this? Where do you want to start? I also think Knicks and Six. I mean, I do think Struz can replicate a lot of that effect. We saw him, I mean, just pick up Kate Cunningham in game seven in terms of what he can do as an all ball defender. I think he can hang with Brunson at least to a reasonable degree. My issue is almost more like, how are you taking away and how are you coming up with answers in whole clots that are new because the Knicks offense has completely evolved since the last time these two teams met. And so much of it to me is about that Josh Hart matchup. And if Kat is going to be making plays from the high post, how are you cheating away from Hart to gum up some of what the Knicks have at their disposal as a result? I think that matchup still makes sense with Mobley on Kat, Jared Allen in that helper spot. But you could also toggle it. You could flip those guys if you wanted, if you thought there was any benefit to it. But Mobley has to be really disruptive in a totally different way than he was in these previous series. He and Allen both answered the call with their physicality, with playing with force. They both have had tremendous moments in these playoffs, but now he's going to have to be the primary point of attack defender for the hub of the Knicks offense. And that's something that we haven't really seen him do a lot of, but I'm eager to see what he's made of in that way. Yeah. And then to your similarly to Castle, Josh Hart is basically more or less won that schematic battle. He has two defenders on him. He's made enough threes. He's made enough plays out of the pick and roll as the screener. He crashes for offense and rebounds. He beats the hell out of you in transition, just flying ahead of your guys. But yeah, and again, the Knicks offense is run differently than it was in the regular season. They've just found a new gear, a new level of creativity, but some things remain true. The Brunson Kat two man game, and they run it in a lot of different ways is deadly. And step one against the Knicks is you've got to make that hard for them. And I think the Caps can do that. Conversely, whenever the, they've gotten much better about this, whenever the center on the other team is stuck on Kat, they just go right to that two man game and he gets open threes or drives to the rim or whatever. The, you know, it's always been a good Mitchell Robinson matchup. He just eats them alive on the glass. And so that's an X factor. And I think they can play both of the bigs together a little bit more in this series if they want. Yeah. And the other answer, go ahead. I do think the recognition you were talking about with Kat and opposing centers is to me like very emblematic of why the Knicks have been so good lately. They're just picking up on things so fast and that they feel so dialed in until like, what are our matchups? What are the triggers? Like, when do we need to go to these specific actions versus if you watch them in like January, February, they were searching all the time. It was like, how do we get Mikhail Bridges going again? Is OG Ananobe happy with his touches? Like it never felt settled in terms of the flow of the offense. And to me, that's one of the big differences between these two teams is the calves still have even for as well as they've played. And certainly the way they kind of took over the series against the Pistons late, they have like some lag time in their decision making. Like Donovan Mitchell can do incredible things. James Harden can still have great for scoring performances, but it takes them a minute to figure out like, oh, this is how we need to adjust. And the Knicks, I mean, against all odds, they have, they've been one of the best teams in the playoffs. They've been one of the deepest and most balanced teams in the playoffs. And I found that this has been one of the most reactive teams in terms of the minute to minute adjustments of what playoff basketball is. They have been ready for it from the jump. Like when you, when you make an adjustment defensively, they are ready with the counter on the very first possession. They read it and say, oh yeah, we're ready. We plan for this. We're doing, it's not two possessions. It's not three possessions. There is no wasted time. They came out with a ruthless calculated game plan right away against the Sixers. Like they wasted no time. We're putting in beaten in every pick and roll. They were ready. This playoffs has been a really great coaching job by Mike Brown and his staff. And I expect that to continue. The one lever they have that they haven't really had to pull and they tried it a little bit against the Cavs is if the Cavs defense starts to give them some issues, do they go with the super shooting lineups where everybody on the floor can shoot three? So there's no heart and there's no Robinson and probably no Alvarado who can shoot threes, but is a little reluctant. We haven't seen a lot of that, but with Shamet working his way back into the rotation, I would assume that's on the table for them. You know, on the Cavs, the Cavs to your point, they are, they have proven themselves as maybe not as cleanly and rapidly as you would like, but they're good problem solvers. And if you let them worm their way into a series, they're going to find some ways to puncture your defense. They're going to find some things that work. They're going to find some rotation wrinkles, like more Sam Merrill, more Streus, whatever. Dave, it hasn't been pretty, but they just won a game seven on the road by a million points. They came back from two, beat the Pistons four out of five. And as, as ugly as it's looked sometimes for them, it just can't be emphasized enough. Like they did play two of the five best defenses in the NBA by the numbers. Like it's not easy to play against those teams. They are going to make you look old and ugly and ragged at times if you're James Harden in particular. And the Knicks were, I think the seventh best defense in the regular season, so it doesn't get that much easier for the Cads, but I just trust what the Knicks are doing right now. And it will be full go in practice. He's been as good as pretty much anybody in the playoffs so far. Just sick. By the way, one thing I would like from the Cads, this is a little bit in the weeds, and it could be useful in this series. They were running these staggered screens a lot in the regular season using Mowgli and Allen as, as screeners together. And they were really like very up what they would do out of it. Like so if Allen was the first screener in the stagger and Mowgli was the second, sometimes Mowgli would slip. Like the second guy would slip before the first screen is even used. And it was like a very smart way to leverage the skills of their big men. And they have kind of gone away from that and gotten slower and more predictable. I think, I think they need to dial just the general creativity factor up if they want to win this series. I think they absolutely should. And that, I mean, that would, that kind of stuff would be a great counterpoint to what you mentioned earlier as far as like, if the Knicks do challenge James Harden to be guys one on one, that's the sort of matchup that kind of kind of like bogged down the offense, even if it's successful. So you have to work in those wrinkles. You have to get the misdirection going. And I think it's even more effective with the level of spacing they've been playing with, with Streuss and Merrill out there. Like those guys actually do with their movement and with their gravity stress out defense is pretty significantly. Ringer.com Spotify slash Spotify podcast listener, Sam Merrill. Shout out Sam Merrill. Caps have to win the free throw battle as they did against the Pistons rather decisively since they've gotten hard and they've become free throw machines. And interestingly, both teams, defense is allow lots of threes. The Knicks allowed the second most threes in the league, the Caps, the eighth most. And you know, can they direct those threes to the places they want them to go? Who makes threes? One of the things I think the Pistons fell into this trap occasionally. I'm interested in your thoughts on this. The, uh, this is always one of the interesting tests on defense, the degree of reaction to Evan Mobley popping for an open three. Similar to like Embiid, I thought the Pistons overreacted a little bit. Sometimes I understand like he's, he shot it okay in the playoffs, but there were a few possessions in the last couple of games in that series where they over rotated to a Mobley wing three. And yeah, they snuffed that out and it ends up in like a Meryl or Streus corner three. I'm like, I would just, I don't want to overreact. I got to make him make a lot of shots before I start going a little too crazy on that. I think it's one of the hardest things about playoff basketball. And it was one of the most jarring things to watch with Alex Caruso last night was just like the Spurs were just going to live with those shots and they were going to try to contest them a little better, but you just have to commit to it. If you're going to do it. Mobley is not getting that kind of leeway, like that kind of opening. You're still going to contest. You're still going to respect the shot to a degree, but I'm with you that I don't want, I don't want to overreact to it, especially because to Evan Mobley's credit, I think over the last like season and change, she's really improved as a decision maker in terms of how quickly he will get rid of the ball. If you do come at him pretty aggressively, like his short role playmaking has been one of the best avenues for the Cavs offense in these playoffs and his willingness to make quick, good decisions out of those closeouts is like another good like source of consistent offense. And so not only do you want to make him make the shot to prove that he's actually like, you know, a better than average three point shooter, which it kind of depends on the day when you catch him, but you just don't want to put the ball in the hands of an even better shooter who he will get it to very, very quickly these days. So we both think nicks and six nicks go to the finals for the first time since 1999. Crazy to think about, but I, they feel like a team that is just like, even if you take this thing away, they have all these other options. Even if you think you have this advantage, their depth has really come through for them. Like Deuce McBride could have an amazing series. Landry Sham, it could have an amazing series. They just have like what six guys shooting better than 40% from three right now. It's, it's, it's such a like you put your finger in the dam kind of defensive premise with them that I really don't know what the Cavs are supposed to do. And that is a matchup where I'm have, I'm struggling to even just like conjure the vision of what a Cavs win in this series looks like. I think they're savvy enough that I don't think it will be a short series. But yes, they are under, even Clarkson has come off the bench in the last couple of months after being banished and played better defense, made better passes. Like he's been productive. All right, Nixon six, I guess is what we're going with. Today's nicks Cavs preview was presented by State Farm. State Farm is here with agents and easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app to help set you up with personalized coverage that fits your life and budget. Like a good neighbor State Farm is there. Cover jobs are selected by the customer price and eligibility vary by state. Okay. Rapid fire Rob Mahoney. Let's do winners and losers from the playoffs so far. I will give you some rapid fire ones that don't need to be elaborated on too much. And I'm going heavy on losers because as my daughter says, I'm a pessimist. She calls me a pessimist because I am a pest and a pessimist. Um, jail and during. Yeah. And on the lower scale, uh, Mark Williams and the just the center restricted free agents is going to be rough. I mentioned the, uh, Rockets and the Hawks, Stefan, Castle and the experience. Uh, the Celtics team extreme, uh, ignoring the rim and all of that, I think was exposed a little bit as a weakness. And then my other last loser is, uh, the GMs who are anonymously whining about lottery reform, removing a vehicle for them to take the whining has some basis in a legitimate fear of, are we being trapped? Our team's going to be trapped into, um, badness or mediocrity. Some teams have already been trapped by their own doing in such states. Uh, but I do, I just, I do think the tanking severity of the tanking problem. Temporary as it may be because of this draft has gone to outweigh the fear of that particular, that particular fear. And there are ways to tweak the three to one proposal to make it a little friendlier to the worst teams or a little less punitive to the three worst teams, maybe. Um, but I think we've arrived at a chance at a time where it's worth trying. And I still, I just don't think you can whine about how horrible the tanking is. And also whine about how impossible it's going to be to climb out of the bottom and out of both sides of your mouth. Um, I have, uh, one more loser and one winner that I want to get to, but give me a rapid fire, a couple of Rob Mahoney picks. Here are some losers. Um, Anthony Edwards, not cause he's not great, not cause he didn't play through injury. And I thought played pretty well under the circumstances, but like, and is amazing. And yet can you imagine the wolves playing with the kind of focus and precision that this person, the thunder still did. And so to be an ascendant star in a time where like this does increasingly feel like Victor Webinyama's world has to be frustrating and unfortunate circumstance for him. And I think the wolves just have so many decisions they need to make. It's kind of a tough time to be aunt. Um, within the Celtics, I want to sling a lot. Derek White as a loser specifically, I can't, I can't allow that on this. I know, I know it hurts my soul a little bit. I love Derek White. I love his game. It didn't go great. We all do. Like if you don't crack 40% from the field and it gets worse in the playoffs and you can't shoot. And at the same time, you're a guard who's getting older and entering into a different stage of your career. I just think we all need to be prepared for the fact that Derek White just might not be an impact score in any significant way going forward. And maybe this is like his Andre Iguodala, but more of an off-ball defender and not a stopper kind of era. I wasn't prepared for this level of emotional reaction and sadness. Rob, that I didn't sleep enough to digest what you just said. Um, that, that hurt me a little bit on the wolves. Couple of things. It's good. It's, it's a thing on, always a thing on Twitter. Um, after a game like last night where there's just sort of like, what are you supposed to do if you're one of these other teams in the West? And I saw someone smart tweet. I can't remember who was like, you know, and we've talked about this before. Like, do you, do you try to, we talked about this, what it looked like the thunder where the old, the 75 win juggernaut and like the only target, but now there are two targets. And we talked about like, do you try to time your ascendancy to, you know, when the apron maybe forces them to make some tough financial decisions. And by the way, they've got at least another year before they have to do that. Um, and I just don't think you can, and the wolves, there'll be a great example of that. Like, do we take a step back now, try to get some assets and go forward in four years? I just don't think with some exceptions, depending on where you are as a team, but not the wolves. I don't think you can think like that because you have an apex superstar. You have a very good team that's going to look different next year, one way or another, but like we've seen, we've learned this lesson over and over again. Injuries happen. Windows close faster than you think, or they close for one season and reopen the next. You just can't think that way. You just have to keep going for it and say, like, look, we're going to be underdogs. Fine. We'll see what happens in the playoffs. Also, Mark, Lori and Alex Rodriguez, just every minute of their day now should be devoted to pushing the NBA to expand as fast as possible. So you can get that on the Western conference. Cause that's the other solution. It's a great road for them. But like, I think this is one of those things where everything you're saying is right. You can't, I don't think you should get too cute about the timing of your team and basically any respect, you're just kind of asking one of those unforeseen variables to affect your team. And then ever, all of a sudden you're in like a 10 year rebuilding cycle. But like if you were watching this game last night and you didn't, if it didn't feel like the NBA was changing, I fear you're not paying attention. Like that felt like a hallmark moment in the direction of the shape of the league. And it felt like something that again, even though we all suspected this is Victor Webinyama's world, I think we now have pretty hard confirmation that that is indeed the case. Yeah, we do. That was terrifying. Um, and the wolves just experienced that and they won two games against the Spurs. One game when he was five or 17 and did not play well by his own admission. And the other game he elbowed not as read in the head because he felt like, and he was mad that he got ejected from the game. It's hard to beat them when he plays there. Now 38 and three in their last 41 games in which one B plays at least 15 minutes. 38 and three. That would put you on pace for the greatest record in the history of the sport. That's not bad. Uh, one of my losers to that effect was Julius Randall and me, uh, for prematurely banging the gavel and saying that the wolves had won the cat trade back when Julius Randall was playing well and Dante DiVincenzo was playing well and cat was in the middle of yet another cat existential crisis. Boy, was I wrong about that. Just don't have a gavel. Don't bang the gavel. These trades go back and forth multiple times, but Julius Randall, um, four times in the playoffs. And you thought maybe he had turned the corner last year with a really inspiring playoff run neck and neck with aunt is like the best guy on the wolves. Yeah. And just for the third time in four playoffs, a complete dud where his scoring falls off a cliff, 16 a game on 39% shooting, 24% on threes, even more damning, 34 assists to 34 turnovers in the conference semis against the Spurs, nine assists to 18 turnovers, 13 points a game, 19% on threes, $33 million next year, $35 million player option the year after that. The, uh, wolves are right up against the tax before resigning to IO, Desumne, which would take them probably over the first apron. Uh, I don't know what they're going to do. Uh, Golbert had a bad series against Wemby just like was played off the floor during his minutes. Um, they got some tough choices to make. They were in somehow the honest thing at the trade. They'll, I'm sure they'll try to get back in it. I don't really know how that works, how they get the draft assets to really do it. Uh, and by the way, the, the Knicks and the calves were potentially honest teams, if they both advanced far enough to get out of that derby and just say we're good where we are, but he was one of my, uh, one of my, he is, he is the main loser for me. Do you have any more before I get to my last winner? Yeah. I mean, corresponding winner for Carl Anthony towns, who as we've alluded to has recalibrated his entire game in the process. I think like kind of become a New York icon or a Knicks icon. And at the same time it has wolves fans longing for the days when cat was a part of their team. It's like he's just becoming increasingly beloved and also has just been playing with his head on his shoulders for an entire playoff run, which I never thought I would see frankly. So an incredible time for cat. So I, I wrote a piece for ESPN maybe two seasons ago about cat having turned the corner in the playoffs. It was either 23 or 24. And I think it started in 23 when they lost to the nuggets in the first round and the nuggets called it the toughest series we faced on our way to the title was four, one, you know, McDaniels didn't play punched a wall. Nas, Reed was hurt, all that. And cat had a shaky first few games and then like games three, four, five, kind of turned the corner. And then the next year got off to that start against Phoenix. They swept Phoenix in the first round with Durant and all that. And I wrote about how he had turned the corner in the playoffs because before that year, right? Remember that Memphis, Minnesota series where he was constantly in foul trouble. Yeah. It's like not even involved in the offense a lot. And you were like, what's going on? And he's been in foul trouble a lot for the next so far, but he's defending at a basically career best level, I think across the board, making good decisions. And just like, if he can stay out of foul trouble, I think the storyline you're talking about where he becomes kind of a beloved Nick will, will continue. And I think they should win this series. My last winner. And I just don't want to leave him totally in the rear view. It's, it's been a while now since we've seen these guys play. Scotty Barnes average 24 points, eight and a half assists, eight and a half assists, six rebounds, almost three stocks, 51% shooting, 38% on threes. 54% on twos. Defended everybody. First it was Evan Mowbly, then it was like, actually, we need you to defend James Harden and Don have been denied them the ball. That's crazy. Dispyriting loss for Toronto in some ways, but no quickly the whole series. No Ingram, the last half of the series. They damn near almost won it. And I think they come out of that series feeling like, yeah, we have a franchise guy. Like this guy's going to be an all NBA guy someday and probably soon. If he doesn't make it this year. He's borderline this year. I think he has a chance given the injuries, but he's ascending to become and like the threes, the threes were hit or miss, right? Like he doesn't take very many. His mid range too looked like a legit playoff. Like this is a good fail safe kind of shot, particularly against smaller guys. I just thought he had an outstanding two way series for them. I want to give him a little love. That's all. Completely deserving. I mean, there were portions of that series where Toronto's best offense was just like Scotty Barnes runs super hard and transition and he's such a terror to cross match with that if you're a small who steps in his way, he's just going to literally dunk on you. Seeing him play. We knew who he could be defensively after this regular season. He's clearly like an ascending defensive talent, really singular player on that side of the floor, but seeing his offense come together where he has some of the facilitation, some of the spacing with the shooting, but more importantly, like the force of his scoring, I felt more acutely than ever. And so for the Raptors, I agree with you. It's its own heartbreak to lose a series like that. But to come out of this year with Scotty Barnes on the rise, Colin Murray boils like really establishing himself in terms of his role within the franchise. That's a huge win. Like that is that is a great season and a great kind of resolution to come out of it with. All right, Rob Mahoney, when's the next group chat? We got group chat tomorrow night, which I guess will be after, you know, spurs Thunder game two. I can't wait. Oh my God. I need to take a nap again before that came. And you wrote last week. What did you write? I read it. Something drove you out of writing retirement and prestige TV. Well, what was it? Let me tell you, it was Dylan Harper. Dylan Harper, that's right. If anyone can move me in the game right now, weirdly enough, it's Dylan Harper, who's like the most pragmatic player in basketball, but also somehow does things. And I'm like, I literally don't know how that worked. I don't know how you went one on four on a fast break and got a wide open layup out of it, but here we are 20 years old. Rob Mahoney, you're the best. I will talk to you soon. Listen to him on group chat and prestige TV and all of that. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Zach. All right, that's it for today. I'm headed out to the world's most famous arena for Game One of the Eastern Conference Finals. Thank you to Rob Mahoney for waking up early and for his time in insight on a whopper of a game one last night in Oklahoma City. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production and to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Loeschow. We will be back Thursday morning after game two of this series. God only knows what's in store. Come listen to that one and we'll see you soon. Thanks again. 21 or over and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas dark casino or 18 and over and president in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming, gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MAY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Or is it MD gambling help dot org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gambling help line MA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 sevens important in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8HOPE-NY or text HOPE NY in New York for Louisiana. 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