The Man That Hacked NASA and Found UFOs [Interview w/ Gary McKinnon]

There's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? You can't go to the U.S. now. I'm on the Interpol Red List. The biggest military computer hack in all time. We talked about the case of computer hacker Gary McKinnon, on which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. Well, I'm Mr. McKinnon. We have proceeded through all the processes required under our extradition agreements. I was just a guy, normal guy, interested in UFOs, happened to have some IT skills, nothing genius level. You hacked into the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Department of Defense, and NASA. They wanted to put you in prison for 60 years, so... Oh, 70. For 70 years. And I bought potassium chloride, and I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die. Oh, my God. Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes. The reason that you are here today on this show is because what you found... He found, he says, photographic proof of alien spacecraft and the names and ranks of something he called non-terrestrial officers. I was in my dressing gown up till like four in the morning, smoking weed, drinking beer. Right of my life, really. The first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture. And so I double clicked this. But it was very, very slow. I was on a 56k dial-up and I was just thinking my god this is my eureka moment then there's like slowly a hemisphere started appearing and I'm thinking fuck that's a planet what the hell and then suddenly there's a big straight kind of silvery line cigar shaped object I see the mouse moved and someone else is out the computer themselves they right click disconnect and boom. That was it. I was cut out. What do you think photographed it? Very good question. This spreadsheet was titled Non-Terrestrial Officers. So, not on the earth. And that was incredible. I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. I was suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain that immediately I just went, ugh. In my left heel there were two perfectly circular holes. Wow. Weird. Explain what's going on quickly. I can't turn my phone off. You can see my finger is on the power button and both. This is like a hard reset. That's never happened before. Absolutely, it's never happened before. But you're with Gary McKinnon. The ignition frequency starts. How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that. The existence cannot longer be deniable. Before we dive into the incredible story of Gary McKinnon, I want to shine a light on one thing his story reminds you of instantly, online privacy. Gary is a brilliant self-taught hacker who pulled off what the Pentagon called the biggest military computer hack of all time, all from a bedroom in London. In this interview, Gary goes into extreme detail about what he found in some of the world's most sensitive files, and I still can't wrap my head around what you're about to hear. After hearing what he found, you might think he hit the ultimate UFO disclosure jackpot. However, the moment he went online, a digital trail started forming. Think about the moments most of us could get exposed. It won't look like Gary's story, where he broke into sensitive government systems, saw something truly unbelievable floating in space, and then had his access cut off mid-session. For most of us, our risk exposure is usually much simpler, like joining hotel Wi-Fi, airport Wi-Fi, or even your office network. Going incognito doesn't hide your browser from the Wi-Fi owner, and your internet service provider can just log what you do online. That's why I use ExpressVPN. It encrypts and reroutes my traffic through secure servers and masks my IP. I literally turn it on before doing sensitive research for the show. Like looking into whether mid-century scientist Thomas Townsend Brown cracked anti-gravity in the 1950s. That's exactly when I want my browsing to stay private. So if you're like me and you like going down crazy rabbit holes, make sure your research isn't exposed on whatever Wi-Fi you're on. Thanks to our sponsor, ExpressVPN. You can now get up to four extra months of your ExpressVPN service by clicking the link in the description below at expressvpn.com slash AmericanAlchemy. That's expressvpn.com slash AmericanAlchemy to get the privacy you deserve. Thanks again to ExpressVPN for sponsoring today's historic episode. Because if Gary's story teaches us anything, it's that your online privacy matters. Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia Experiment. And it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. And you know who was leading the whole project? My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown. who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members. You know what that sounds like. Your team. Before you had Quo. This year, upgrade your system to a workspace that keeps your team from shattering across dimensions. If you've ever tried to schedule a meeting across five time zones and six platforms, you know the absolute horror of losing people to the ether. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo. spelled Q-U-O, the smarter way to run your business communications. It's a single streamlined command center for calls, notes, transcripts, chats, even AI summaries, an all-in-one shared reality, yours. No vanishing, no fusing into calendars, just your team, fully entangled and synced across time zones, timelines, even caffeine levels. Make this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try Quo for free, plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com slash Jesse. That's Q-U-O dot com slash Jesse. Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers. Now back to the show. This is such an honor. I am here with, he's been at the top of my list of people I've wanted to interview for years now. And I'm so lucky to have this opportunity through James Fox, the great documentarian. uh gary mckinnon oh thank you i'm glad to be here i love your channel um i've been a long-term subscriber so yeah i really like a lot of the interviews you do and i'm glad to be here too let's let's just go back to uh the early 2000s tell me the year and the day and and tell me about your life at the time and then i want to get into the actual you know event okay um i can't remember the day but the year was 2000 early 2000 and uh my life pre to that i'd always had a deep interest in ufos um mainly for my stepdad um he used to live in falcoe which is near bonny bridge which is in scotland it's like a scottish ufo hotspot many many sightings almost like a tourist attraction you know people go there to see ufos and uh i had one sighting myself uh when i was about 12 and um i was looking out of my bedroom window and i saw this kind of reddish orange glowing light and it was moving in an arc from there to the horizon and it was um but it was like brownie in motion it wasn't a straight line it was like wiggling around and i just thought what on earth is that um and i was also a member of bufora at the time the british ufo research association yeah i was hooked from an early age and so i guess it only made sense that eventually i'd try and do something to further my own interest and find out more um but unfortunately it involved breaking the law sorry mom so so you already have an interest in ufos had you seen a ufo or like you know just that one sight just that one sighting okay but i had my stepdad's stories. He'd seen them. His brother, my step uncle, had seen them. Yeah. And so you have this personal interest. And then do you have like a hacking background or like do you have any sort of like cyber background? Are you really good with computers? No hacking background. I used it. I was good with computers. I started off an Atari games console in like 78, 79 and then eventually got the Atari computer learned to program in basic at first and then machine code, assembly language moved up from that and then eventually got jobs in computing very low level jobs to start off with network installation, windows configuration then did computer science degree which I eventually failed because I spent too much time in a student bar um but yeah so i eventually ended up contracting with a bank it's quite high level stuff but doing very basic sort of networking stuff so i had a good background in networking especially windows knew how they communicated and some linux stroke unix solaris stuff like that so when i mean the internet came to britain in 95 i think i first had the internet and the first thing I searched for was UFOs and it was very popular loads of websites, loads of information and fast forward about 5 or 6 years, I read the Disclosure Project book from Greer and his team and they told you installations, locations and I thought, I've got to have a look at this, I wanted it from the horse's mouth I didn't want to just believe I wanted to know and so I thought I could use my basic networking skills just to do a scan you know a light scan on american military networks which which is mad now but back then it was just kind of like a playful idea and um i wrote a pearl script pearl is a programming extraction reporting language just a scripting language and that i could run that across thousands of machines in minutes and find a blank passwords or passwords that were either blank or password, admin, a basic list. And when you do like wide-scale phishing like that, you do some fresh bite. And that was my basic method to get the entrance to these places. And so some of these extremely sensitive American military sites had blank passwords? Big time. That's crazy. Crazy. I mean, although that seems beyond belief, it also makes sense. Like the government's way more incompetent than often, especially people in UFO world give them credit for it because we assume they have workable reverse engineered crafts that they know how to use at will or where. So like you, of course, would have passwords set up. But 2000 is early Internet. We're still worried about Y2K, you know. so like we didn't really understand how a lot of this stuff worked it was this big experiment and so wow so that that sort of fishing thing came up with some some fish yeah and uh and as you said the government really isn't tailored for this especially the military um they don't well they didn't then employ specialized it workers they trained up existing military employees in the you know basic techniques to run a network so there weren't advanced security aware guys running government networks, military networks. And are you, so while you're doing this, are you just like sitting in an apartment or something? It's a bit embarrassing. My girlfriend and I at the time, we were living in her auntie's house on the ground floor. And I was in my dressing gown up to like four in the morning, smoking weed, drinking beer, just right of my life, really, for a young-ish guy. I think I was 36 at the time. So, yeah. I, you know, I don't think that's embarrassing for you. I think it's embarrassing for the sites you hacked into. Okay, so you're getting a little late night buzz and you're, you know, you're at your girlfriend's aunt's house and you're just like, I want to find, I want to know for myself what's going on in UFO world. You do this blank password search. you actually come up with some results as far as sites that you can get into what do you look at first? Well the first thing I had to do was test my method so I did that on British sites we're currently in Cambridge, home of the famous university I had Cambridge's FTP server file transfer protocol server and Oxford as well and a couple of polytechnics at the time which are now universities and I realized the technique worked. If you cast fire enough, a wide net, you know, something's going to come in. And then I thought, okay, let's go for the locations. And my list of locations all came from the Disclosure Project book. And also there was a, I forget the title of it. There was like a hackers network document going around of a list of potential UFO secrecy sites. And I took some of the names from there. But all that told you was the network names or the particular Department of Defense, like some department that owned that network. So I used a site at the time, which was called Nihi's IP Index. And this guy had done some work. He'd used like domain search tools and built a huge list of who owns what subnets. So I could just grab a block, plug it into my script and scan like a quarter of a million computers in eight minutes. typically 5% would respond. And then from that 5%, a further 5% would have black passwords. Okay. Okay. Got it. So you do this like narrowing process and you end up with, what is it? Like 97 sites that you can get into or something like that? Yeah. That was the end result. Which is a lot of sites. And what do the sites include as far as acronyms that people would be familiar with or program names people would be familiar with? Okay. So NSA, I got into Fort Meade. DEESA, Defense Information Systems Agency, DOD Networks, Basic Army Networks, Navy Networks, USAAF, US Air Force Networks. Okay, wow. So yeah, those are some pretty intense organizations that, at the very least, we know, hold the keys to, you know, all sorts of, you know, military technology secrets that confer a tactical advantage to the U.S., if not some of these deeper, you know, more interesting mysteries that, you know, you and I have. share an interest in. So what do you do next as far as your search and what do you find? Yeah. Okay. So I'm one guy. I've got potentially thousands of IPs to search the individual computers. And once you find a blank password, and these are Windows networks, you need to become the administrator, which is like, you know, the highest local account. And eventually the domain administrator, which controls the entire network. so once I was on one PC or a network I then attack the domain server and get that password and that's through dictionary attacks password cracking I actually use a tool called Loft Crack I don't know if that's still around and once I've done that it's a huge job for one person huge job so I found a program called LandSearch this is all commercially off the shelf available software and what LandSearch enabled me to do was to type in a search term and it would search every file and folder on all the local PCs that I had control of which could be I think the largest I did was 5000 at one time which took hours so yeah that's how I that was my system for making it doable for one person and also it depends on your search terms these files aren't going to be called UFO secrets so I had to look for things like you know, secret, top secret, anything just to, and PDF, PDF documents were particularly helpful. A lot of stuff was in PDF back then. And the redacting they did on PDF back then was not fully redacted. You could unredact it once you downloaded the file to your own PC. So it was a huge network-wide document search and just grabbing what I could, spending hours getting it, and then spending hours reading it and trawling through it. Are you, when you're spending hours reading it, Is this like you backed this stuff up on a hard drive or is it just on your PC? It downloads my PC. Okay. So it's just on your PC. Yeah. Wow. And so you're going through all this stuff. Were there any other things you saw that were interesting outside of, you know, we'll get to the crazy kind of UFO related stuff that you found. Was there anything else that you saw while searching through these documents? I was looking for free energy as well. I never found anything to do with that. One thing I have to say, I never found anything to do with Solar Warden. Solar Warden is a huge rumor that was started by an anonymous poster on the above top secret forum. So there's no evidence for Solar Warden. And I have nothing to do with it, never heard of it, apart from rumors pertaining to myself. Yeah, for the audience, Solar Warden has become associated with these sort of secret space program, Gaia, you know people like cory good you know that say that we have like a terrestrial you know we have like humans like in in like deep space right now and they engage in these like 20 years and back missions or whatever and there's like a documentary on it and it's like the it's the worst documentary i think i've ever seen i bet it is i totally believe in a secret space program but i don't believe cory good yeah well that's the thing it's like pizzagate and epstein it's you the best way to debunk the truth or to pre-immunize the population from ever actually looking into the truth is to uh uh kind of you know inoculate them send out stuff that is directly adjacent to the truth and then ensure that that gets debunked because it's so prima facie ridiculous Yeah, standard Intel technique. Yeah, so the fact that there's some sort of standard Intel techniques. So the fact that a blog, an anonymous blog post, and then you have all these people kind of flooding the zone with secret space program stuff makes me think that there might actually be something next to that that might be true. That dovetails with what you did find. Anything else that you found that was interesting before the crazy stuff? Nothing to do with ET or anything like that, but it's very interesting what, on one site, I found the jailer's file. Every military base has a jailer. And it's just crazy. You've got guys taking LSD that work on submarines. Really? So lots of interesting human stories. Where they're taking LSD that work on submarines. Yeah, well, yeah, because they're soldiers, basically. Okay. They're like, oh, I'm a submarine. I'm tripping now. And they're doing drugs. They've got Hell's Angels gangs bringing in the drugs. So that was interesting for a human story. It's nothing to do with what we're here to discuss today. Okay, that's fascinating. I thought for a second you were talking about like MKUltra, mind control, like taking LSD at the bottom of submarines and testing consciousness. Okay, so just, you know, recreational, spice it up down there. Interesting. Make the 9 to 5 less boring. Yeah, and so you're systematically, you're looking for UFOs, you're looking for free energy, any other terms that are on your mind in going into the search? No, that was my main focus. And with UFOs, it was particularly the propulsion. What I was interested in was the energy and the propulsion. Aliens didn't excite me so much because I'm sure they exist because it's a huge universe. But I wanted something that we could use. And I was convinced that it was secret technology, but they knew something about that the populace at large wasn't allowed to have access to. Yeah, well, I think you were on to something maybe. In Britain at the time, we had old-age pensioners couldn't pay their fuel bills, and energy was a really sad story for a lot of people. So to have something that was free, it was just too juicy not to have a go at finding. Yeah, I mean, it would be hugely disruptive to establishment institutions. You know, if our energy prices dropped from 50 bucks per kilowatt hour to like 50 cents per kilowatt hour, that would be hugely disruptive. It just would. I think it's a control mechanism, isn't it? And it is as well. Just like water is starting to be, food has been for a while. Yeah, anything that's scarce and can be accrued at the top, I think is totally a control mechanism. And anybody who doesn't think that having access to a critical threshold of oil has not determined American foreign policy over the last 70 years is nuts. Like, I mean, you see it with Maduro in Venezuela and then worries about what's going on in Iran vis-a-vis that, you know? And like, it's all very, very, you know, obviously interconnected. I mean, Desert Storm in the early 90s was basically pulled off because Saddam Hussein, in overtaking Kuwait, controlled a fifth of the world's oil supply. And that was just unacceptable. Yeah, and one thing about Venezuela is it wasn't just America's domestic supply. It was what foreign powers could get. China was about to do a deal with Venezuela. That's right. I think it would only amount to like 1% or 2% of China's imports, but it's still something. Yeah, still something. They're sitting on a lot of oil there. And you see this like these crazy sort of game theory dynamics vis-a-vis China taking place with Greenland and other places. So it all cuts to these. And if you look at like why the U.S. had to back down off this recent, you know, trade agreement deal with China and kind of concede some things, it was due to rare earth refinement being basically a monopoly in China. And so, you know, these things are like very real things geopolitically. And so if I agree with you. I think it's very interesting if there's any sort of novel exotic physics that's stuck in a compartment in the government, you know, I'd like to know as well. And I even think they're probably interesting ways to use it geopolitically. If you have it where it's like it's some sort of carrot for like, OK, maybe you don't give it to like, you know, gross dictators or whatever, but it's like a way to like incentivize reform or I don't know. But like just keeping it to yourself, that seems wrong, maybe. Yeah, but you're right. It's a real hard light to walk, isn't it? How do you have that public for you but not public for other countries because you have spies? Totally. And there are dual use implications for a lot of things. So like a good example would be, you know, controlled fusion or whatever would, you know, is the really positive, you know, use of nuclear fusion, which would allow for, you know, sort of free energy if you have over unity. but then you know fusion also creates the hydrogen bomb right and so like you never know like if you had some free energy device that you were putting in a compartment or something if that also allowed a kid in his bedroom to blow up the world like you do have to like do some calculations there's this guy Ashton Forbes online I don't know if you're familiar with him oh yeah plane talks about yeah MH370 these like orbs wrapping around the plane and then it zaps it And he's like sure that there's like free energy, like, you know, being held by the most fascinating thing about that was where's the provenance of that video? Yeah. Never been shown. It's never been. Yeah. We don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, okay. So what do you, what do you find next? So, um, there was a, a special witness for Stephen Greer's disclosure project called Donna hair. And she said that when she worked, she was pretty hard. She was a, a NASA launch photographic. photographic specialist. I think she has secret clearance because she'd get very close up photos of all the mechanics and engineering and stuff for launches and the launch platform under the launch platform. And she said that she worked in Building 8 of Johnson Space Center, JSC. And her colleague who worked across the corridor, and this is all something he shouldn't have done, because they chatted, you know, had lunch together or whatever. And he one day he just beckoned her across the corridor and said, come and take a look at this. And this is the days of analog photography. And so he's got, you know, big contact sheets and slides and they used to be developed under red light and silver nitrate. And he says, what do you think this is? And there was a huge white disk on this satellite photo of the Earth. And she, being a photographic expert herself, said, oh, it's just a blob of the emulsion, you know the old capical of the sheets and then he's grinning and he says uh dots on the emulsion don't leave round shadows on the ground and there was a round shadow at the right angle at the correct angle the sun shining on the trees i saw pine trees i didn't see a coastline i don't know where this was but um i looked at him and i was pretty startled because i'd worked out there several years and never seen anything like this, never heard of anything like this. And I said, is this a UFO? And he's smiling at me and he says, I can't tell you that. So I said, what are you going to do with this information? And he said, well, we always have to airbrush them out before we sell them to the public. Because they sell all the imagery to colleges, universities, you know, earth shots and magnificent scenes from space. so yeah his job was to block this stuff out and make sure it wouldn't get seen and they didn't have Photoshop then so I'm not sure, I think the airbrush term literally comes from a physical airbrush on the emulsion where they just blur things and you see lots of examples on this of like lunar photography from Clementine Mission, the lunar orbiter the LRO, lunar recordances, orbiter so I read this story absolutely fascinated, he was this hardly qualified a woman she'd worked for a long time nasa and i think the air force previously to that and um and did she say disc she said flying saucer yeah okay yeah she and she said so that shape the circular shape yeah and the shadow okay wow and um i was already in jay's johnson space center at the time so i thought building eight okay i wonder if that's still running because she worked there I think the late 80s or the early 90s. So you're in the Johnson Space Center files on your PC. Yeah, I was already there when I read that. Okay. Yeah. So I thought, I've got to have a look. Yeah. I've got to have a look. And I thought, how the hell do I find Building 8? But luckily, Windows has, you can do network commands in a console rather than a GUI of the mouse. And you can type it like netstat, network status, tells you all the people connected to the machine. and there's other commands whereby nasa are great auditors of their system so they have these special commands for auditing where you see the machine the pc the number the serial number the date when it was last maintained all stuff like that and the building it's in so i ran those commands that produced a list and i stripped out i think it was about 1500 machines or maybe 150 machines but um once i stripped out the building eight machines uh there was only like a dozen maybe and i ran the blank password script on them and i think about half of them were accessible and the first one i looked at was the one where i saw the picture and it was strange it was um i did a lot of network support before that as well and most users desktops are covering stuff, short cards, emails, like electronic post-it notes. And these were very bare desktops. All they had was like two folders, raw and processed and maybe a couple of other shortcuts. So I thought, I've got to look at this. It's got to be images. It's where she said it was. It looks like images. It says raw. It says processed. And I double clicked into the folders and it's a proprietary nasa image format that i can't run on my desk not a jpeg not a png um so what i had to do was basically there was uh what was it called there was uh there was before i i basically had to run nasa software i had to double click on the desktop because my hacking method although i'd get in there with a blank password which was cli come online. Once I was in there, I was using Remotely Anywhere. I think it still exists. It's like PC Anywhere. It's like you're sitting at the desktop. You can see the screen on your screen. So I double clicked this, but it was very, very slow. I was on a 56k dial-up, which was to give some idea of the speed, it was, if you download an MP3 music file now, you've got it in a few seconds. Then it was five minutes per megabyte. and a song might be three megabytes, and 50 minutes for one song. No one would even accept that now. So I double-clicked this. It was taking ages. I canceled it. I turned down my remote graphical, remote control thing into, like, 8-bit color, then 4-bit color. Eventually, yeah, I think 4-bit color or 2-bit color. It was basically four or five different colors. That was a shitty image. But it came on the screen, like, you know, almost line-ball. I think it was a few lines at a time, It's coming in blocks. And I'm looking, and there's, like, blackness. Then there's, like, slowly a hemisphere started appearing. And I'm thinking, fuck, that's a planet. What the hell? This could be what she said. Then the hemisphere comes into view and it very blocky but it kind of blue and white So I thinking well it must be Earth And then suddenly there a big straight kind of silvery line that coming down Then that's, I guess, what they now call a tic-tac, but it's what we used to call a cigar-shaped object. And this thing was, admittedly, it's low resolution. It's coming down slowly, but this thing looked very kind of smooth on the outside. there was no lines where there would be like plates fixed or screws and bolts and stuff and uh i was just thinking my god this is my eureka moment you know confirms donna hair story not that donna hair story needs confirming um yeah and it got to i got the whole ship you know in view and then it started to go below that where i would see the rest of the the um the sphere of the earth i assume it was here and um it was just amazing the only man-made possibly man-made thing that was there was like geodesic domes like radar stations uh one atop below and both sides and i thought well that's strange it's kind of man-made looking but not man-made looking and then i've got graphical remote control i see the mouse move someone else the person someone else is at the computer themselves and they're moving the mouse they right clicked on the local area network icon you know right next to your clock on the bottom right lift your windows taskbar, disconnect, and boom. And that was it. Gone. I was cut out. And I'm sitting there, like, waiting. Oh, my God. Facing breath in my eureka moment. Come on, come on, come on. Oh, my God. Anything else on the cigar? So smooth, no, but doesn't seem like rivets or seams. It's hovering above the earth. Do you notice anything else? No. Just, like, a very smooth cylinder. The geodesic domes. and so the little dome dome on top dome on bottom yeah and either end yeah and on either end yeah or that could just be the kind of cigar sure to like the closure of the cylinder sure sure sure fascinating yeah so interesting and did you ever speak with you know yourself or three intermediaries with donna hare oh yeah and did she say that's the disc that i saw and i just because I think of disc with her and then cigar tic-tac with you. Yeah, she saw that one photo of disc, but she also spoke to – Okay, so these are probably different images. You're just confirming that the same building probably has a whole lot of images that they're sitting on. Yeah, even though it might be 10 or 20 years later, apparently this is still the place where those images – Yeah. Yeah, UFOs or exotic craft, and they're being airbrushed out. It is proof that at least – I mean, it's really interesting that you have a whistleblower come out with nobody has any evidence for her claims at this point and she says you know i this is where we process the images i was shown this image building eight johnson space center you independently you know halfway across the world hack into johnson space center look at building eight and then one of the first things that pops up on your screen is an image of a ufo hovering above the earth which is clearly not the exact same ufo but it's you know it's definitely exotic it's nothing you know it wasn't a rocket it wasn't iss it was like a space lab or well it doesn't sound like a satellite to me a cigar like rotating around there's no antenna either there's nothing no like telemetry or sensor looking stuff doesn't yeah yeah that is wild i mean and then also now we have the uh lucky hindsight you know in in in 2026 of Commander David Fravor's experience of 2004, just a few years later off the coast of San Diego, where he sees a Tic Tac object. And they have, you know, apparently radar. We've seen the FLIR imaging, the thermal imaging of this thing. It's for everyone to see. The Pentagon has verified that that's real. All four of us, because we were an F-18F, so we had pilots and WIZO in the back seat, looked down a small, saw a white Tic Tac object with a longitudinal axis pointing north-south and moving very abruptly over the water. like a ping pong ball. It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingman, roughly 8,000 feet above us, lost contact also. And then you have a lot of other witnesses. You have his co-pilot, you have another plane and two pilots in that plane. You have, you know, a whole lot, you have the obviously radar, some guys on the ship, exactly. So are you the first, like, other, I mean, I believe there's some other Tic Tac and Cigar. Like there's, you know, I think flying, there are Air Force documents from the late 40s that describe flying butane tanks. I don't know if you know about this. I haven't heard it. Yeah, David Grush, famous UFO whistleblower, has talked about this. And then in Robert Hastings' great book, UFOs and Nukes, which talks about UFOs showing up at nuclear installations all over the world, including in the UK, actually, at Rendlesham Forest in 1980, really famous case. He talks about Tic Tacs or cigar-shaped objects often being sort of like a mothership and saucers flying out of the Tic Tacs. Yeah, I think that happened. Was it Maelstrom AFB in America as well? Similar thing happened. Yeah, definitely a mothership kind of configuration. Yeah, a ton has happened at Malmstrom, actually. So it's definitely likely that in certain cases some sort of Tic Tac. Because a Tic Tac or cigar is one of the most common descriptions people have. There's a case we were just talking earlier. You know, thank you, James Fox. Great documentarian for the intro to Gary. Great guy. And we were saying that he sort of single-handedly resuscitated this obscure Brazilian UFO crash in 1996, the Varginia case. And there's a guy, Carlos de Souza, who's an ultralight pilot geography teacher who literally saw the crash. And he felt the material, just like in Roswell with Jesse Marcel. He feels the material and it feels like, you know, memory metal. I could see quite a few pieces of debris on the ground and I picked them up. And it was kind of curved. And then I was surprised to see how light it was. So I said, I'll keep it. And so I crunched it up. And so I made this kind of movement, you know, to put it in my pocket. And what happened was this foil or this sheet regained its shape. normal so i thought what is this i was completely floored yeah it sprung back into its original shape and guess what the shape of the craft was that he saw that crashed right so cigar tic-tac yeah so yeah lots of uh synchronicities there what was your first instinct when you saw it how did you feel and what did you think you know often i think like if you're taking like a multiple choice test it's like your first instinct's off and right you know and then you second guess yourself so do you did you have like a an on-the-spot interpretation i'm not an aeronautics expert or a space vehicle expert but to me you know i watched space stuff with interest since i was a kid and it wasn't your normal space stuff so i knew that um but there wasn't you know i didn't know if it was extraterrestrial yeah i still don't obviously you know it could be something man-made but it was definitely something secret because it was nothing like like we already have of that did you uh have any sort of like instinct of i mean the obvious question is like is it ours or is it theirs yeah you know a big distinction well i think because of donna hair's story my instinct was that yeah it was alien because that's what she described she described unknown things in high-res nasa satellite imagery that they had to airbrush out because I don't know, maybe they thought it would panic the public or they had no explanation for it. And what did she say as far as why they airbrushed it out and didn't just admit, you know, yeah, we're surrounded by these cool exotic objects? Yeah, we shared a few emails. She's passed now, unfortunately, God bless her soul. And we had one, I think it was like two and a half hour, three hour phone conversation. And she thinks, just like a lot of us do, that a lot has been hidden. It's been hidden for reasons of control. But it's weird when you try and extrapolate from this, you think, well, wouldn't you use technology like that in a war if you had that? Wouldn't you use it openly to your own advantage? So to me, that tells me that it's still unknown even to the people with the highest authority on this subject. I think that's right. If it's not well known and it's flying with impunity over our nuclear sites and in sensitive airspace and in space next to, you know, our recon satellites and stuff, you would be extremely embarrassed. You wouldn't be able to admit, you know, you know, but if but if you did know what was going on, you would just tell the public, yeah, we not only do we know what's going on, but then you try to signal that, you know, what's going on and you've like reverse engineered it because you'd want to, you know, kind of soften, you know, the enemy sort of thing. And so I actually think some of modern disclosure might be, you know, intel tactics to try to like say that we know more than we do but also recruit on the topic because like actually they don't really know what's going on yeah i think you're absolutely right embarrassment is a huge factor yeah um even just my my hacking was an embarrassment so if they're embarrassed about something like that can you imagine yeah i mean it's just indeterminable it's hugely different um and also fear because i mean why you know are they here yeah what are they doing why are they interested in nuclear missiles is it for protection of us is it that we destabilize some kind of interdimensional thing or yeah you know we're fucking with atoms did you get this yeah right we are we're doing a lot genetics atoms biowarfare so so you when you saw this thing did you get the sense that it was moving in a predictable orbit i mean it's it's a static image so you have no way of knowing but did you get the sense that it was like moving in a in an orbit or that it was like just kind of maneuvering around or well i've seen photos of the low earth orbit stuff um and this looked to be maybe i mean i have no idea of the scale of this thing um but with the hemisphere it was way beyond low earth orbit okay but i don't You know, there's actually a WikiLeaks email with John Podesta on it that's been deleted from the Internet. But still, if you go on the Wayback Machine, I think there's some Reddit forums that discuss this. Definitely a real email. And he is talking with kind of a contractor from some aerospace corporation, I think in California. and he mentions that the contractor, I think the guy's name is Bob Fish, said they're having lunch together, and this is him recalling it in the email. And Fish says, yeah, we spotted some fast walkers today. And I think this was in specific reference to the DSP, the Defense Support Program, which I think is this very deep geostationary kind of recon thing that the Air Force does. This was the Air Force at the time because now Space Force would do it, you know, post-2019. But I wonder if you saw Fast Walker. Because also if you try to FOIA Fast Walkers, which John Greenwald did, the Space Force gets back and says, you know, clearly there are some records, but we can't talk about them. Yeah, wasn't there a CIA for you to do with fast walkers as well? Maybe, maybe. Yeah, it might be the CIA, actually. It might not even be Space Force. I might be getting that wrong. But, yeah. Interesting. But I guess one question would be, like, was it lateral to the Earth? Like, was it moving, yeah, lateral to the Earth? Because I think it wouldn't make sense to me if it was, like, vertical to the Earth. like if the if the butt was facing the earth i'd be like that doesn't feel like an orbit like it's in a predictable orbit you know what i mean yeah it was definitely it was lateral 90 to the earth it was at 90 yeah so that yeah it's it's horizontal the horizontal i wasn't seeing it end on so you're right it was in a position to be rotating around possibly in orbit traveling past or just traveling past yeah yeah or yeah okay yeah so it wouldn't be it wasn't like going directly at the earth it was like moving laterally somewhat okay so interesting any other detail i guess you could you don't you don't know color right because it's silvery white i mean it was very that was in like i think two bit color okay but or maybe four bit but yeah it was very kind of blocky and there's definitely white silvery white and did you see any sort of i guess i don't know how you'd see a shadow but like did you see any sort of because this is so far out from earth yeah interesting what do you think photographed it very good question yeah now yeah so this takes me to um i've i referenced the disclosure project a lot because that was the root of a lot of my locations and research yeah and um one of their witnesses i forget his name he was dia and he got a lot of the information to do with the satellites. And he was the one that said most of these satellites are actually pointed outputs. And they're not like low-earth orbit communication satellites. So I assume if you've got very far-out satellites looking outwards, you can also rotate them and look inwards. So that's the only thing I could think of. Okay, so that is fascinating. You see that. How are you feeling when you see that? Oh, man. i was ready to inform the press tell the world oh my god look it's true and nether knows and nether has no for ages and donna hair was right and for them boom disconnected as it's loading yeah so it hasn't even fully loaded i saw like just under the bottom half of the ship yeah and um yeah then disconnect and you have no reason to lie about this you've never made any money off of this right and if anything you were kind of put on a witch trial like there was sort of this witch hunt for like 20 years where this like you know blanket extradition was attempted to be applied to you where they wanted to put you in prison for 60 years so 70 for 70 years Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes on his visit to the White House David Cameron spoke to President Obama about the case and both agreed they could find an appropriate solution We talked about the case of computer hacker Gary McKinnon, on which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. You said you would work together to find a solution. So have you found one? Well, on Mr. McKinnon, we have proceeded through all the processes required under our extradition agreements. It is now in the hands of the British legal system. we have confidence in the british legal system coming to a just conclusion and so we await resolution and we'll be respectful of that process well we had talks and they said look if we just come along don't fight it you do between eight and 20 like that's a good deal no thank you i'll fight it um and yeah and that was actually horrible it was very depressing um i found out my own government because governments are made up of individuals and individuals have ties to other individuals in the doj and the cps some of them wanted me gone too just as a favor to the u.s not because of anything to do with right or wrong or truth or justice just as a favor political porn um so that was awful but not just for me my family you know your mom and dad and it's like weren't there some allegations of a meeting that was had at the american embassy out here where it was like we want his head or something like it was very extreme language use yeah ed gibson who was attache to the u.s embassy in london at the time met with my lawyer and he said we want to see him fry electric chair reference jesus christ she told me that karen amazing lawyer i stopped with us all through this and fought and fought and fought yeah i was just i mean we already knew they played dirt because I mean people have to realize you know politics isn't about people being safe and well looked after it's about the state the furtherance of the state and its objectives and the protectors the protection of your state to foreign states so yeah no that is definitely the lay of the land as is national security and you know I just find it I find it interesting that okay you have guys like Snowden and Assange where wherever you lie with them, which like whether you think they're courageous and ideological and in a way that really, you know, exposed all sorts of, you know, issues with the intel world and mass surveillance and stuff, or whether you think they put like, you know, Americans abroad in danger or whatever, which I think there are like, there is some nuance there. Like, I do think some people in the intel world who talk about this say, well, there's some real like bad effects around around this in assange's defense he had lots of phone calls before releasing that information so he actually agreed it with people in the state department i didn't know that that's yeah well there you go yeah but but but i was just getting to the point whatever you think of those cases like maybe there's some you know like uh more gray area or debate to be had or whatever in your case you're just you're smoking weed in your girlfriend's aunt's little flat and it's like 4 a.m. and you're just like a dude who's interested in ufos since you were a child and you want to figure it out and so i it's just like to me if it's the u.s like get your shit together it's that should be your you should be you know it's almost like they might have uh lashed out so much at you because they were embarrassed i mean that you literally like it's it's on you it's not on this like poor English citizen who has no clearly like I don't think you're like particularly ideologically set in like destroying America you know it's I've been there I love that Chicago yeah yeah yeah yeah so anyway well we'll get to that kind of more meta conversation but you also found some other pretty crazy things uh while you were while you were searching in your girlfriend's aunt's flat and so yeah what else did you what else did you find besides this tic-tac i think um i was on a navy system at the time i can't remember cloud of weed but um there was a spreadsheet excel spreadsheet and it was called because i was saying earlier about my search terms it was ufos et terrestrial anything spacecraft anything i think of which probably wouldn't be in the title of the document but um this spreadsheet was titled non-terrestrial officers so not on the earth which isn't necessarily alien it could just mean space-based marines or you know secret space force um and that was incredible it had ship names It had materiel, the military spelling, not materiel. And it was transfers of weird chemicals like melibdenum and other weird things that are hard to pronounce. Ship-to-ship transfers and fleet-to-fleet transfers. And at the time, I looked up the ship names, thinking U.S. Navy, must be boats. Nothing, absolutely nothing. Do you remember the names of the people? No, I don't remember any of the names of the people, but there were long lists. I think it was just initial surname. I don't think there were first names. And the ship names, I was expecting like USS Lincoln or Navy ships, but there was none of that. Everything I, and it wasn't Google at the time. I think it was AltaVista was the biggest search engine at the time. None of it was seagoing vessels. So you see a list of non-terrestrial officers, and then you also see chemicals. What are the names of these chemicals? Malibdenum, barium, something was in there. They were very exotic. So what does that imply? Do you remember the exact – so what is – have you looked up what the uses are of this? I remember molybdenum I can't say it now they're very exotic they're used in like magnetics lots of very kind of exotic industrial processes a lot to do with metal hardening if I remember right like you make an alloy and it makes it stronger than the original two components so again now years later with the research you've done, the people you've interviewed, it's all making more sense, especially when we come to the biofield brown stuff and dielectrics. Yeah, we'll get to that. And like nanodeposition of thin layer materials. Yes, yeah, thinly layered, thinner than, you know, a human hair or whatever, micron layered. This one sample is engineered in layers thinner than microns through a process unknown on Earth and for a purpose we can only guess. multi-layered bismuth and magnesium sample, bismuth layers less than a human hair, supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced aerospace vehicle. Nowhere could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these. Okay, this is fascinating, though. So you see a list of how many non-terrestrial officers? Oh, man. So my screen at the time was the old, like, 800 by 600 monitors. I think I might have had 1024 by 768 resolution at the time. So your typical Excel spreadsheet without zooming in when you just load it up was probably 24 lines. And I think there was about one and a half or two pages. So maybe like 30, 40 names. You don't remember any of the last names? No. Sorry. You're killing me. I'm kidding, man. You got to give us a little breadcrumb. Yeah, this is one of the main criticisms of me. why didn't you take a bloody screenshot just alt print screen alt print but i did actually i downloaded that excel spreadsheet and when i got arrested all my data was taken to oni office of naval intelligence so they still have my hard drives i've tried to get them back for years and they said no it's still a long-going investigation you can't touch it office of naval intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S. I think it's 1882. And it's often deeply implicated in UFOs. 1882. 1882. So the National Security Act, which created the CIA, was 1947. And, you know, and then you had the OSS before that, which was kind of this wartime foreign intelligence effort. But, you know, Office of Naval Intelligence well predates all of that. And you had Thomas Townsend Brown doing a lot of spooky science work for the Navy. And, yeah, and then you have this guy, Harold Malmgren, who kind of ended up giving me kind of a, turned into kind of a deathbed confession at the end of his life. And it was wild. I mean, he was like, the Office of Naval Intelligence knows the most about this issue. And once you go in that door, the door shuts and you can't get let out. But he said, Marnell, naval intelligence are going to be around asking you questions about your study. They really got curious. And if they talk to you for any length of time, they'll say, holy shit, you really know a lot. They're going to offer you special access. It's how they operate. I said, what does that mean? They'll open the doors. You'll have full entry. the doors will shut and you will be no exit the rest of your life. That is a closed system. And he kind of implied that they approached him in certain cases and because of the fact that it was this closed system he didn't want to engage. Wow. So, very interesting. So they end up with your stuff. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, they were, when the British police at the time was the NHTCU, National High State Crime Unit in the UK, at first they said to me oh you'll get six months it's a computer misuse act 1995 in Britain six months community service no time and then they went to America and visited O&I and other top brass and when they came back the tone had totally changed it was just really serious which of course eventually turned into facing 70 years in prison so it was a huge like using a hammer to crack a nut it was you know David and Goliath, that whole thing. So wild. Well, excuse me, like you said earlier, I was just a guy, normal guy, interesting UFOs, happened to have some IT skills, a little bit of hacking, black process, nothing genius level. And then next thing, you know, boom, it just blows up. I'll try to make an example of you. So when you think about those chemicals, and we'll get into our mutual interest in Thomas Townsend Brown and anti-gravity experiments. so you think that they could have been used to create special alloys or what you might call metamaterials and ufo world yeah which allow for greater thrust in these anti-gravity experiments like one thing that is true about the byfield brown effect and this anti-gravity experiment is that if you use an insulator in the middle that is considered a high k dielectric which means it stores and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism, a lot of electricity. It stores electric fields in it specifically. The thrust you see in the experiment is much greater from the negative electrode to the positive electrode. So do you think that, you know, I guess barium is actually in Townsend Brown's documents. Like he talks about it all the time. It's pontium titanate. Exactly. So and then what was the other? I can never pronounce it. Molybdenum. Molybdenum. And you looked into that, and that's for creating alloys? Yeah, I think it's a strengthening alloy. It's been a long time since I looked into it, but I think that's what it was. It was like a strengthening alloy. Any other chemicals? It might even have a shielding. Not gravitational shielding, but like radiation shielding or something. I think maybe similar to lead, but I'm not a physicist, so don't quote me. But it's super interesting if it's used on current space vehicles. Like, people should go out and look that up, because if it is, you know, that might be an interesting lead. Yeah, do some patent searches. Yeah. Any other chemicals? Leibdum and barium strontium. Strontium? Yeah, strontium. And strontium is also mentioned in Brown's stuff, I believe? I can't remember any others. Okay, but isn't strontium, I believe, one of Gary Nolan's pieces that he has at the Stanford lab that he thinks might be UFO metamaterials that come from crashes, I believe has strontium in it. Yeah, and it's a good dielectric. I forget it's K constant, but I know it's high. So it's also a high K dielectric. Yeah. This is crazy. So you have a list of non-terrestrial officers. Yeah. yeah so and then what is the fleet to fleet thing mean this is fleet to fleet transfers because it was a it was one spreadsheet but it had taps so there was the officers names there was ship names and there was material a material transfer do you remember the ship names no okay but what okay what when you're looking at this what is your instinct as to like because there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have you know and people make up the secret space program solar warden stuff what was your you're in the moment what are you thinking when you see this well that's exactly where i was imagine you were me ufo guy you know quite an active interest um and then finding this and so obviously that's where my first thoughts go so i'm thinking non-terrestrial officers that's a baseline for the whole document so they're not on earth but i was thinking well they could be they're probably it's probably people they're not non-terrestrial because they're not human they're non-terrestrial because it's non-Earth based so it's out of space so Space Force was my first thought it's got to be a Space Force obviously secret and then with the chemicals and stuff and the ship names and fleet to fleet transfers there was more than one ship and then exotic materials and so you know it's kind of two plus two equals four yeah obviously it's to do with my mindset that's what i was looking for so that's how i interpreted well you know what i would do if i was office of naval intelligence and i hated gary mckinnon you know what i would do i'd make up some bs secret space program call it solar warden send people down the wrong trail when actually I do have real deep space fleets and transfers and Sherlock Warden did come after me yeah it did but I'm still trying to get to the so what do you think the fleet to fleet transfer of what? of people? I think the materials first you have the people then you have the ships then you have the chemicals metal elements okay and do we think that the material is being transferred between humans? Do we don't think that the material is being transferred between extraterrestrials and humans, do we? Or do we think the material is being transferred between humans? I think, yeah, ship to ship. So I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics train. Like a supply chain in space or something? Yeah, just a basic, because the army is all about, or the navy or whoever, is all about logistics. Right. And a lot of these materials, if they are layered extremely thinly, and you have kind of atomic layer deposition style stuff we know that manufacturing in space and in zero g environments allows you so a lot of these materials they go it looks like it was built in zero g like this is so crazy no faults no so like maybe they built it in zero g and then they like conflating it with the ufo stuff which actually just shows up around nukes and in other contexts or whatever But like they might have built it in zero G Yeah. Yeah. That's the old cam's razor explanation, isn't it? That's the simplest. Okay. So there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't make. Physically impossible on Earth. On Earth. Yes. Yeah. That's fascinating. I don't think, has anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this, like we're doing now? No, this is fresh and unique. I love this. This is fascinating because, I mean, that makes sense. That makes sense. Like, the other stuff doesn't make sense. I mean, sending people 20 and back through the sun into a portal or maybe that's possible. I don't know. Super soldiers on Mars. No. Yeah, super soldiers on Mars. I just, we need more evidence. I'll entertain, you know, whatever, but you need evidence. You know, you can't just... Yeah, I'm open to all stories. Yeah, but this is fascinating. Okay, so it's like a space supply chain logistics. It's like a space factory, essentially, where they're creating these metamaterials that you can't make on Earth, and you need deep space to create them. Yeah. And then so the non-terrestrial officers would just be humans overseeing this supply chain, this space supply chain. Yeah, this is really good, because I never even saw it in that way before. Ah, this is fascinating. and what's ironic is they're probably making space travel that much easier by creating these high dielectrics which involve greater thrust in the Bifield-Brown effect so they're like making their own program more powerful yeah, such a fit this is fascinating wow alright, I like that, I like discovery as we go yeah, I mean who knows it is speculation but the idea that we have people in deep space or we have like literal alien like men in black style like aliens walking among us and then we put like navy suits on them commander suits on them they're like you're a non-terrestrial officer or whatever that makes less sense both of those make less sense just don't look at his huge armor-shaped eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah he'll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally but like you know it's like that we're stuck between those two options like that or, you know, it's like aliens in, like, you know, military garb or, you know, literally humans that we've sent into, like, super deep space or whatever. I've never believed in any of the stories of alien contact with governments. I think it's just outlandish. Yeah. No, I think a lot of that stuff is pretty ridiculous. It feels like passage material that, like, is meant to send people down the wrong trail or something. Yeah, at least it doesn't feel like there's a ton of good evidence. I do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people experience things, you know. And, you know, have you ever had anything like that? I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. It was back in 2006. My girlfriend and I are in what we call a bed sit in the UK, tiny flat, on the first floor, not the ground floor. and uh we'd gone to bed we'd gone to sleep and i was suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain in my left heel and it felt like two or three a.m felt like i've been i was in deep sleep it'd been a few hours like what the hell's that like i kind of leaned forward to check it out like something had bitten me then immediately i just went oh i was asleep again in the morning i woke up and weirdly i don't know why i'd gone to bed with my socks on or at least one sock on and then I remembered what had happened during the night and I pulled the sock off and in my left heel there were two perfectly circular holes both about 5mm in diameter and one still had a flap of skin hanging off it, like a hole punch used for paper but about this far apart what? I know and I thought what the hell, on the first floor I was trying to think of every possible conventional explanation was it a rat with perfectly symmetrical five millimeter teeth had come to my bed and bit me in the lab i'm on the first floor you know not the ground floor where like rodents could be um no explanation whatsoever um i can't say much more than that because but i did um later as i got more into electronics and electromagnetics i did like scans and stuff and anything come up couldn't find anything wrong but a few years later i found out because this is some this is something i'm always researching i'm looking for an answer because i still haven't got one there's a company i don't know if it was verisign there's some chipping like electronic chipping company and their process was exactly like that no way yeah a double injection um and then years later i've got two bumps that formed where those holes were and then moved around and i still have those bumps what on my hill today do you think a human did that do you think an alien did it i'm thinking some kind of government tracking government tracking which i feel ridiculous saying it well do you feel ridiculous saying because you had a 20 year you know yeah prime ministers were negotiating with american presidents yeah on your behalf uh because the american government had it out for you so i don't think you know i think for a normal person being like, you know, they wanted to chip me or whatever, like, that might be a little paranoid, but I think in your case, I'm not so sure, man. Yeah, but even so, I wasn't running away, you know, I was on bail, everything was safe, I was contained, as they would put it. But yeah, I just can't explain that. It's just weird as hell. Interesting. And do you still have that in your foot? I still have the bumps. Can I see him? Yeah. I hope no one's got any foot fetishes or the opposite. Maybe you can start an OnlyFans after this. All right. Striptease time. I bet you've not done this before. Start for everything. This is wild. Are we ready? Yeah. Yeah. So this company, Veritas. No, I think it was VeriSign or something. VeriSign. It definitely began with a V, but I can't remember. And they do these little chip implants? Yeah. so when I woke up with the holes they were kind of around here in the corner but now they've moved slightly so one's there, it's a lesser and the other one's there the other one's big that's like very easy to spot yeah, and that's the other one I think that's shrunk over time actually yeah, it feels smaller wow weird the company Gary is talking about here isn't called VeriSign it's called Verichip And yes, it's done work in human microchipping. In fact, the company has produced a tiny RFID microchip about the size of a grain of rice that implants under the skin, transmits a unique ID when scanned, and links to a database with personal or medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool. To think something so small can connect you to everything that matters. when your life and all you love are on the line. The chip was introduced to the market in 2002, just a few years before Gary's experience in 2005. And according to Gary, the company's double injection method would cause something that looks exactly like the two bumps on his foot. I'll let you decide if that's a coincidence or not. If you look a little deeper, Verichip's corporate lineage runs through applied digital solutions and prospectus filings showed that the implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of Raytheon. What we do saves lives. It protects peace and democracy throughout the world. Yes, that Raytheon, one of the largest defense contractors in the world, deeply embedded in military systems, missile guidance, radar, and classified electronics. By the end of the 2000s, Verichip themselves had secured the rights to technology that would allow the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1. The proposal described an implant that could determine whether a virus was present, what kind it was, and how serious the threat might be. At that point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person. It would be monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data. Completely dystopian, to say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology was likely used in retaliation on an ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnon. So if that were surgically removed, what do you think you would find? I don't know. Maybe two lumps of unanalysable material. I don't know. I didn't have so much good equipment back then, but now I have really good stuff for electromagnetic analysis, radio frequency. analysis and i'd rather do that first before having it removed you should do all that yeah just do it like tomorrow okay i'll ask my local doctor i'm just saying i'm just saying you know you don't want uh the names to go missing like in the you know non-terrestrial officers like you want to get like do it now you know yeah yeah figure it out uh so what i joke we're we're in between your implant experience and then this possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials and I don't know where to go my head's exploding um but uh yeah I mean is there anything just going back to the materials thing and the the fleet to fleet transfer it's just so fascinating and it's fascinating that you're into Townsend Brown too oh my it's like you have this like hermetic connection to this whole subject like you were meant to like see that or something like Like, anything else as far as takeaways from that document, you know, and interpreting it? Because it was – James Fox came out with the program, and he, you know, did this great piece on you. But I think a lot of people do take what you found and run with it as far as just the people out there, like their interpretations of it when they see, you know, people discuss it. So this is your interpretation that it's some sort of supply chain in space or something? Well, we stumbled on that together. Together, I guess. Yeah, I really connected it in that way. There was a supply chain. It just came to my mind while we were speaking. And in light of what we both know now, it does make sense in terms of potential propulsion, the materials that might be necessary for that as a dielectric. So it's pretty amazing. No, it makes total sense. There was a company called Made in Space that tried to do this for a while. There's now a probably more promising company called Varda Space, which does this. like factories in space. At the end of the day, you can think of the value proposition as this, is we can do special chemistry because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing engineer. And then often commercial companies are doing things that have already been done in classified settings. And so the stuff that was done in classified settings might have been this, you know, who knows? I mean, right now, I think we it's like we have that are known like six people in space, like six astronauts, like on, you know, the ISS and on various space, you know, Chinese space station, they have an astronaut or two. So the idea that how many officers were on this list? At least 40-ish. 40-ish. So maybe they're in space or maybe they were also, and maybe they were in orbit or maybe they were just managing this non-terrestrial, you know, kind of atomic layer deposition process or you know materials manufacturing or something yeah i've always thought they weren't aliens i thought this is bound to be because it says non-terrestrial this is not extraterrestrial so in other words they're on a fleet that isn't based in space on earth when we talk about a speculative secret space program we should establish something clearly there really was an uncontested, very real and now declassified secret space program. The U.S. Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA's more public facing ones. In the 1960s, while the world watched Saturn V rockets rise under the banner of Apollo, the Air Force was developing the Manned Orbiting Laboratory, a military space station designed for reconnaissance of America's enemies and other orbital operations. 17 military astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built. Titan III rockets were assigned. Launches into polar orbit were planned from Vandenberg. And then, in June of 1969, exactly one month before the Apollo mission reached the moon for the first time, the manned orbiting laboratory was cancelled. Advances in automated spy satellites made human observers redundant. Vietnam was draining resources. The Apollo program was imminent, so the classified space program was folded. But in defense culture, cancellation does not necessarily mean disappearance. Programs are restructured. Personnel are reassigned. Infrastructure is absorbed into deeper compartments. So what happened to the military astronaut program? Where did the classified orbital expertise go? And what was really going on with the classified space program? In 1993, former Lockheed Skunk Works director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA alumni event. Rich had overseen programs like the U-2, the SR-71, and the F-117. Stealth aircraft that had lived in total secrecy before becoming public knowledge. At the end of his presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich's final slide showed a black disc-shaped craft flying into space. He closed with the famous words, we now have the technology to take E.T. home. Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just two years later. But towards the end of his life, he would privately say things that sounded very similar to this UCLA speech. speech, things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could barely dream of. Just before Ben Rich passed away, when I was talking to him, he told me, this is at the end of a 45-minute conversation, he said, Jim, we have things out in the desert, and he wasn't referring to Area 51, we have things out in the desert that is 50 years beyond what you can comprehend. end i can count to rand a hell of a lot and he said if you've seen movies like star trek or star wars we've been there done that or decided it wasn't worth the effort ben rich's son michael rich was the president and ceo of rand corporation for decades rand was the santa monica based federally funded research and development center evaluating the prospects of project orion Nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets, and enable long-duration missions. Not coincidentally, RAND has also conducted comprehensive research on the non-engineering side of deep space travel, crew psychology and isolation, life support logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities. Rand Corporation also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity-manipulating deep space propulsion work of Townsend Brown, his work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967. President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities in his diary entry from June 11, 1985. Lunch was with five top space scientists. It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier, and some of the developments there in astronomy, etc., are like science fiction, except they are real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such we could orbit 300 people. You read that right. Not one shuttle crew, not a single mission. 300 people in Earth's orbit in space. If you ask your favorite AI conversation agent, it'll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today. But we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s? In 2020, Haim Eshed, former head of Israel's Defense Ministry's space directorate, essentially the father of the Israeli space program, publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien representatives were operating on underground bases on Mars. These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades, and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a secret space force, Stargate. With visible cooperation from the U.S. Air Force, the production of the show Stargate leaned on real-world military structures and culture. In fact, two sitting Air Force chiefs of staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper, appeared on the show as themselves. These guys literally ran the Air Force and were showing up for cameos on this show. The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an honorary brigadier general, in recognition of what the Air Force described as the program's positive portrayal of the service. The show's central premise? A classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility. Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff. Or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret. Strange stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think. Like this stunning revelation shared with Ross Coulthard on Chris Ramsey's Area 52. There was a conversation I had with someone who I trust, who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon. Wow. And I, what do you make of that? I didn't know what to make of it. It's important to remember that the public didn't even know the NRO or National Reconnaissance Office existed for decades. The parallel classified Air Force astronaut program wasn't fully declassified until 2015. So is it so crazy to think we might have experimented with covert human spaceflight and exotic material supply chains since then? The benefits of building materials in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of its lower gravity environment, behaves in ways that are basically impossible on Earth. Without gravity, there's no convection, no settling, no buoyancy tearing materials apart as they form. Liquids stay perfectly mixed. Crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws, potentially outperforming anything made on the ground. So it's also not that crazy to assume that we've experimented with this technology for extremely high value metamaterials used at the highest levels of aerospace. Now, where would such a program be headquartered? NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston is not only where McKinnon found UFO related images and spreadsheets. It's the NASA complex that specifically focuses on human spaceflight. The notorious line, Houston, we have a problem, refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So if you were operating a manned spaceflight operation involving a material supply chain, that's exactly where you'd put it. I should be clear, too, like both of us aren't trying to fully pour cold water on UFO crashes. Like, I think. No, not at all. I think like I think Roswell happened. I think that Virginia happened in 1996. So it's always yes and in the UFO world. Like it's like all the, but I think intentional conflations also are systematically done by the intelligence world. And it's important to be able to parse through all these things. Yeah. And of course it's, it's human nature to super associate stuff with something you want to be true. So we can all fall down that hole as well. Yeah, no, of course. Um, well, I, I'm officially, uh, shocked. This is crazy. I mean, And the Navy does do like the most exotic materials stuff as well. Like there's this place, Naval Surface Warfare Crane, that does this. Battelle Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic material stuff as well. And so, yeah, I really, I do wonder if, you know, yeah, some of this is human made. And then if you say it's of alien provenance, then it's this like perfect, you know, kind of black box where like people can interpret it however they want. and yeah it's a great shield isn't it good umbrella it is and then the fact that and what's wild is that like you're now experimenting with materials like you literally have materials in mind that make the byfield brown effect like you're interested in these anti-gravity experiments that involve some of these chemicals that and materials that you saw yeah which is wild yeah Yeah, since 2007, since I first read about Bifold Brown. How did you read about it? How did you come across it? I don't remember precisely. Because that's early. Yeah, it was undoubtedly researching UFO stuff. Antigravity stuff specifically would have brought me to that. But, yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can do this in your home garage or shed or whatever. You don't have to be a scientist. You have to be a scientist to understand the mechanism, which no one as yet does. But you don't have to be a scientist to do it on the bench and try some experiments. Because a capacitor, two conductive plates, in between them sandwiched, an insulator, a dielectric that stores electric charge. So, you know, what's complicated about that? and if you read all the so-called research into the BB effect none of it's exhaustive none of it it's all oh I did 5kV DC I did 10kV AC obviously Buehler went very far there are a few people that went far Army Research Laboratory but no one's done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of dielectrics a multitude of different plates the mass of the plates not just the material uh is it ac is it dc do you use a side wave do you use a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth wave or um how long is your pulse what's your delay is there's so many well there's quite a few parameters compared to a lot of stuff but for a home experimenter it's doable within a few hundred hours i think and i've probably done about 60 hours all told. I've done thousands of hours of reading, but probably 60 hours experimentation. So you've done 60 hours of running the actual experiment? Oh no, no, no, like research into materials trying, yeah I did try, I mean I started off with lifters. Trying to bake a foil and that was interesting, but it's bolts of wood and bake a foil and there used to be a website called Blaze Lamps and they had some really well-informed guys there ex-aerospace that knew all the like aerodynamic mass and stuff and they said, just like Army Research Laboratory they said there's no way that this battered you know, metal foil sheet, which isn't even perfectly smooth like an airplane there's no way that aerodynamically that can be pushed just by ion flow, just no way ARL said it was like at least 10-20% above what could be achieved by ion flow Which is exactly what Brown said. And so for the audience, Townsend Brown is this mid-century, very mysterious inventor who started with the Navy, then joined Martin Vega, which was, you know, pre-Lockheed Martin merger, you know, the year that Skunk Works formed. and then kind of popped up in all sorts of three-letter agency contexts and was shoulder to shoulder with elite American military brass, people like Curtis LeMay, just this very mysterious figure who consistently claimed that he would get these positive results in these antigravity experiments or what he called electrogravitics. There's even a video of him popping champagne from the Bonson lab at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost, studying anti-gravity and literally convening all the best theoretical physicists on the question of gravity in 1957. And it was all sponsored by Wright Airfield, which is where all the UFO rumors come from. They were literally paying for this, you know, for a lot of this research. Yeah, weird connections. and so if you take what he claimed about his own experiments at face value, you'd have this crazy update against SpaceX and chemical combustion. It would be this total paradigm shifting thing. It's not a small deal. It's a really big deal. And the thing about Brown is we know for a fact that he was one of the number one radar guys in the Navy. There's an FBI file from 1942 or three that basically says he knows more about radar than anybody in the Navy. And that's that's number one. Number two, electrohydrodynamics, which is not electro gravitics. It's the manipulation of airflow with electric fields, which is how that the tinfoil, you know, balsa wood, you know, DIY foilers work and fly. but it's also what made it into the b2 stealth bomber and i'm pretty sure i kind of have the receipts on that too so like that so you have these two things where he's like the best like ehd you know electrohydrodynamics and radar and then he's claiming that he could also merge electromagnetism and gravity which is the holy grail of physics theory and so it's like okay so like he's right on two out of the three things but he's a total quack on the third thing and there's so much smoke around it and then now you have the lead electrostatic scientist at nasa who could is the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is only attributable to conventional electrostatics and he's saying that no this is it works it works in a vacuum so you can't do it with ionized air. Physics in its current form cannot explain this. And his own experiments, Charles Buehler, who you mentioned, are derivative of Townsend Brown's work. And so, like, I think there is so much smoke. There's a Japanese experiment that you mentioned, the Musha paper. Yeah, Musha Takeda. I forgot his name wrong. They say that they get, you know, a successful result. In that case, I think they submerge the whole thing in transmission oil, which also you can't ionize transmission oil. Like, you know, that's not going to work. So, yeah, are they coordinating with these people in the U.S.? Are they like some deep state thing in Japan? Like, I don't think so, you know? It's like this global thing. So, yeah, this is wild. So we were setting this up, and, you know, I was talking to you on the phone, and you were like, yeah, I'm super into Townsend Brown. I was like, what, this is going to be the best interview ever. Well, yeah, to make sure I really enjoyed your, I call it your Byfield Brown special. I don't know if that's what you... I'll take it, yeah. Let's call it the Byfield Brown special. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you. Well, kudos to you for being in Dept Townsend Brown in 2007, because The Man Who Mastered Gravity by Paul Shatzkin was this great biography. That only came out in, I think, around the pandemic, and he had this other version of it that wasn't really edited super neatly or concisely. I think that might have come out in 2009 or something, and he kind of stepped away from the project. But 2007, you're talking about Townsend Brown being on the dark corners of the web. That's where I used to live. It sounds like it. Yeah, man. And wasn't Paul LaViolette who first introduced the idea of the B2 using that? Yeah, so here's where I think Paul LaViolette got wrong, because he wrote this great history of anti-gravity. and he talks about microwave beam propulsion alongside Townsend Brown's Byfield-Brown effect he's a really brilliant guy he had his own theory called sub-quantum kinetics oh yeah his whole which is fascinating and he seems like just a brilliant I would have loved to have interviewed him he died a few years ago sadly he's dead yeah it sucks no wait I was in email contact with him I thought up until two years ago but obviously got that wrong and we were going to have a I was going to start a podcast. Oh. And he was going to be my first interviewer. Oh, dude, that would have been the best thing. But he said he had hip problems. He was undergoing hip surgery or something. So, oh, man. Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a real bummer. But I think where he, and it's an amazing book, and everybody should read it, but I do think he says that the B2 had like an anti-gravity drive, and I don't think that's correct. I think. I thought he just said the leading edge. It was like a capacitor. Yes. So the leading edge was one plate and the trailing edge was another plate. Yeah. And I think he's right about that. But I think that just manipulates the airflow. Like that just makes the airflow reduce the lift to drag ratio. Yeah, it wasn't a full drive. Or increase the lift to drag ratio. Sorry. Yeah, so it made it slightly faster. Yeah, it makes it more aerodynamic and faster. I mean, maybe there's some real electro-gavitic thing happening. but there's no there'd be no way to like fully say because it's happening not in a vacuum so like maybe there is something you know actually happening there that is you know top secret and it super yeah it top secret but i also don know why they would necessarily declassify the b2 if it was using electro gravitics per se i will say there is a guy named william gunston who is the preeminent aerospace journalist in the uk um or was uh and you know as part of like the royal air society and has all these awards and stuff and for um i think it was like air international magazine he did like a history of you know aero engine tech since world war ii and then he gets to townsend brown and he goes with townsend brown like you know i will refrain from talking about you know leading edges charged to millions of volts positive followed by trailing edges charged to millions of volts negative because i don't want to end up in the tower of london and then he caveats it a little bit more so like i don't know if that caveating is genuine you know unsureness of what he's saying in the tower of london which for the audience was a place of torture was a place of torture does he mean professionally or like as a whole like giving away secrets or if he's literally saying these are state secrets yeah and then i don't know if the caveats are like i don't want you know i really don't want to be implicated for having said this so i'm going to sprinkle in some doubt or whatever i don't know but it's interesting yeah but um so so you you are do you want to pull off one of these experiments or oh hell yeah um I'm planning it by April of the latest. I've been distracted for a while and had to do other things. I'm only doing these experiments in a 10 by 10 foot shed. And they're not expensive, but they consume a lot of time. Yeah. And I'm basically doing industrial processes in a garden shed. So it's a bit... I've got... But the first thing I bought, because you have to heat this stuff to a thousand degrees, the calcium covered tightly to a thousand degrees and then I had to buy a 10 ton hydraulic press I bought a gas furnace and then because of the geometry and stuff that wasn't unusable so then I bought an electric furnace which is much smaller and easy to manipulate this tiny disc so cool it's only 40 millimetres across I'm starting off very small so I've got to make that into what they call a green body make that solid I bought really high quality silver paste as the plates. But then after that, you have to think of when you've got these two plates at 30 kilovolts or more, you get arcing currents, you get sparks, basically. So I have to find a way to stop that. And my first thought was to have very small disks on top of the 40 millimeter diameter calcium cover titanate, CCTO. but there's other ways to do it as well so I've got to figure out a path and then complete it because I really want to see it float, I want to stand there in my shed turn the on switch on and see this thing arise. That would be amazing if you made something levitate you would kind of, the haters would have nothing to say what do you say at that point? You say it's AI and I It's not real these days, it could be AI Yeah, sure. That's a good point. Would you do this in a vacuum chamber? Yeah, eventually. I do have one vacuum chamber. That's for my resin. It only goes down to like minus 99 MPA or something. But I mean, Gravitech has done it in a vacuum chamber. They used to contract for NASA. Who's Gravitech? Gravitech is under a different name now, but they've got, I can say to the videos, what's his name? not Henry something I've had a few emails with him as well yeah they've done it in a vacuum a proper vacuum like you know minus hundreds of tall shout out to Gravitech I want to check that out I've never heard of that he's got a different company now but I've got his email I'll send you oh please yeah get him one man he'd be glad to I'd love to and he now does stuff for satellites I think like private satellites whoa not using this actually I don't even know enough to comment. But yeah, he's done it in a vacuum. Interesting. And it is less of an effect. Why wouldn't you pursue it, like, you know, more substantively after that? Sounds like he just went straight to satellite. I think, yeah, I think he wants to be commercial, make money, do well for himself. And probably, maybe that's as far as he wants it to go. But it works in a vacuum. But also you have, like, Jean-Louis Naudin, a French kind of YouTube scientist, I want to call him. I don't know his credentials, for real. He's done it in vacuum tubes. he's isolated the electrode in the tubes. But I don't know what the pressure was. I mean, yeah, so you're right. There is this whole global community of DIY independent creators, aerospace professionals who in their private life just want to pursue this, or UFO nuts or whatever outside of, you know, whatever they're doing. And most of them say that there's a there there. There are very few people that say there aren't a there there. The ones that do, I believe there's, you know, an Air Force, the guy, his last name is Talley, and he's an Air Force guy. And I think he consistently uses very low voltage and tries to explain it away. And I even, I spoke to this one Navy scientist, and he was like, Talley's just a bad actor. Like, he's, like, brought on the scene. Like, he's like this guy in UFO World named Sean Kirkpatrick, who's the former Aero Director, who's, like, brought on to, like, you know, dismiss. He's a fun man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know Tim Ventura, or propulsion? Yeah, I do. Yeah, he's a good guy. Yeah, he had that guy on that had similar effects with very low voltage, like 5 kV, 5 kilovolts. I think it was Bueller, no? Because Bueller thinks of the electric. Oh, yeah, he was. Yeah, so this is the NASA electrostatic fleet. I get confused because there was a previous Bueller in my old documentation for like pre-2000s. Whoa. Unless that was his dad, or maybe it was because he, was he like mid-50s now? Maybe it was him. No. In your old documentation? Yeah, yeah. I've got documents with a Beulah, and I didn't think it was him, but maybe it is. We didn't do that doc swap. We said we'd do a doc swap. Oh, yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. Do you have a lot of compiled information about this sort of stuff? Oh, sweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah. Interesting. New zip file. and in terms of free energy there's one thing I found, not I found, but I found the guy that discovered it so Lenzi's law stops the motor rotating because of the counter electromagnetic force if you look at the formula for that the strong element of that is the inductance of the coil and this guy found that if you increase the his name is Fane Hines, if you increase the inductance of the coil, then the rise time of the opposing magnetic field that slows the turning of the motor down when you're applying power to a load is delayed, just like delaying timing in a car engine. And he found that not only could he delay it enough to stop the CEMF, counter-relatural motor force, dragging, creating electromagnetic drag, when it's past a certain point, phase angle, it assisted the rotation. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So your standard electric generator is a disc with magnets and underneath it, coils. And he found that when the magnet is spinning around, it gets to what they call TDC, top dead center above the coil, with his method, because it delays that opposing, because when the magnet, let's say it's a north pole facing down, and it cuts into the coil that creates a south pole in the coil that opposes the incoming movement of the magnet and then when the magnet is moving out of the coil it creates a north pole which accelerates it out and he found that when you do this stupidly simple but incredibly effective time delay the CEMF rises in such a way it's late on the income so the magnet gets pulled in and it's early on the outgoing so the magnet gets pushed out so it accelerates the incoming and the outgoing and he took it to such an extent that eventually there's no opposition at all and you can actually reverse you're not reversing Lenzi's law because that's an inaccurate physics statement but you're reversing the effect in effect of the URL and I did a small experiment I'll send you the video I did the most simple magnetic emoji you can I had a cylinder shaped magnet, which is diametrically magnetized. It's not north on top, south on the bottom. Each curved half is a north and south poles. I had that in a vertical shaft rotating. And I show it with a normal generator coil, which when you attach it to a load, the power input needed increases to support the load. And the rotation slows down. well when i put his coil on which has higher inductance when you tell that coil to power a load the rotation speed increases and the input current goes down the complete opposite of motor theory motor generated theory whoa that's the one and only thing i've seen and been able to replicate that works in terms of free energy and this guy is now he's got contracts with siemens Phillips with him he's talking to China it's about to blow up whoa and I've been following him since about 2007 to on overunity.com the first forum I saw him on what's his name? Fane Hines where is he based? he's Canadian physicist mmm yeah dude you are deep down the rabbit hole of alternative propulsion and energy you've got to interview this guy I would love to he's like your general kind of crazy man genius he's um not so good at social interaction but he's got it man it's typical of somebody who makes real breakthroughs like that for them to be I think he's got a lot in his mind I think he's got a lot in his mind as well fascinating what do you think this chip in your foot does it ever burn or buzz no sometimes close no basically you've gotten no incremental information on it outside of just a couple of lumps that have moved over time towards the inside of the arch of the foot strange have you ever uh had a sort of like any sort of men in black experience or experience with you know strange men in suits showing up at your place or no but my lawyer had her office and her car robbed really which is obviously not men in black has more earthly powers. No, nothing. Men in Black. Did, okay, so when you hacked in to all of these sensitive American military sites, how did you get caught and what happened next? Oh, man. Yeah, I got lazy, got egotistical. I thought, oh, I can go anywhere I like, look at anything. And I started making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses so I was making direct connections to you know the target and I was using like free AOL sign up CDs so I wasn't being at all you know like a professional hacker I was just yeah I thought I could just do it I thought oh these guys don't even know don't even have passwords they wouldn't even know I've been here but yeah eventually obviously when that guy right clicked the LAN icon and disconnected me that was Naza and they reported to BT, British Telecom, which is my internet service provider at the time, and said, who's this IP at this time? And they said, in fact, they didn't have my name at first. I don't know if my internet account was my girlfriend's name or if I were using her aunt's internet or something, but the horrible thing was when they came, when the national high-tech crime unit came to arrest me, the warrant was for the whole house, and they came early in the morning, arrested me my girlfriend my girlfriend's aunt's daughter who was only like 12 or something at the time so it's quite a horrible experience extended family and all my fault and why are they arrested 12 year old uh what just a question sure not not arrest on detain not to jail yeah yeah that's still uh it must have been traumatic for yeah because they didn't know who the person was they knew someone at that address yeah yeah yeah and um and unfortunately yeah my ex-girlfriend's cousin he was quite um antithoriotarian and quite alternative mate i think they thought it was him oh it must be him he's got purple hair he must be the guy oh so yeah i'm laughing now but it's horrible because it affected so many other people you know my stupid curiosity but james mentioned something about guys looking over you at your bed or something like like at night or something oh no that's probably when i was arrested because i was arrested in my sleep wait so you were rested in your sleep? yeah the National High Tech Crime Unit I'd been up all night playing Galactic Civilizations 4 some big space game and probably smoking still as well and gone to bed late so I was asleep at 8 in the morning my girlfriend was getting ready to go to work knock knock knock choosing her dressing gown they're patting her down and pushing her into a room then they're coming to my room I'm in bed and I've got Gary McKinnon I'm Jeff Johnson from the National High Tech Crime Unit you're under arrest for computer misuse and then from that point onwards the UK was like okay with more of kind of a slap on the wrist sort of thing and then it was the US that was like no we need to extradite him now and then you mentioned they changed the extradition laws to make it this sort of blanket thing that applied to you? Yeah definitely So when I was first arrested, the National High Tech Crime Unit, who were the arrested body, said to me, you'll do six months inside, maybe community service, maybe no jail time. Because under UK law, all I did was unauthorized access. You know, I didn't break anything or steal anything or make money or anything like that. But then these officers went to America, to ONI, and I must say officers of naval intelligence, because there's another ONI. there's an intelligence system I think investigation or something I don't know yeah and when they came back they had a very heavy tone a completely different tone about them they were very impressed by meeting with the top brass in Washington and yeah oh this guy caused $5,000 of damage on every PC he was on you know which is just stupid how do you damage the hardware if you just do this like software hack that we're calling a hack but you're using like off the shelf stuff yeah it's like PC anywhere yeah but I think what they call damage is the time it took them to take them offline so the machines are unusable for a while investigate them so it's you know you know what it feels like kind of white hack hacking to me because you didn't actually end up using any of the files in a way to hurt the US or their like again you can say what you will about Snowden or DeSondre or any of these guys like there's nothing you did to like knock the US down a leg as far as their tactics ability to like you know do things so it's almost like a white hat hack because the costs they incurred to take the stuff down and reset them they would have needed to do anyways that would have been what if like a malicious person had like you know yeah penetrated all these servers state actor that's what i'm saying yeah yeah so they're actually extremely lucky that you did five thousand dollars where are you buying your pcs from no they should i mean you literally white hat hackers get paid so like i think i think they should pay you all right i'm just saying please send the email yeah you know i'm serious it's like you literally you didn't do anything showing malintent once you got the info they got the info back and then they reset ideally their computer networking and architecture in a way that you know these sort of phishing attacks couldn't be done. These are basic things that you're using. Yeah. So I just like I think it's like insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in in in like middling bureaucracy who's trying to cover their ass like this took us all this. Well, you should have done it before. Yeah. What are you doing? You're not doing your job. Yeah. Yeah. If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had figured out in 2000, that would be one thing that would be like, OK. And then you used in this sort of detrimental way to American national security. I've decrypted NSA. Yeah, but otherwise, I mean, I don't know, man. That feels like a kind of crazy... Okay, so then what happens to the extradition laws? Oh, man. So, yeah, the original extradition law, which I think was 1989, was a good basic law. We accuse this British citizen of having committed a crime in or against America. We have this evidence, and it's a crime over here and it's a crime over there so we should have him in America to stand trial totally fair, totally reasonable but then, I mean this is the weird thing, in law, computer crime is a weird thing, it's a grey area because it's not physical where's your bum at the seat when you commit the crime, lots of questions that are legally intransigent, like how do you place this so what happened was I was arrested in 2002 and in March. And then I was re-questioned by the NHTCU when to visit the DOJ in August. Then they came back. Then they re-interviewed me in November 2002. And that's when their tone had changed, very serious. You're accused of harming military systems that could be used in prison. And that's when, you know, things really got serious for me. I thought, my God, this is just blown out of all proportion. but we were protected by the extradition law because there had to be evidence of malintent, etc. And when I did my police interview, I completely admitted to what I'd done because it was all on the hard drive. I said, yeah, it's all on the hard drive. I went there and I got this document, went to another place, got other documents. So I was open about it, thinking, oh, six months, like they told me, I'll be fine. And they said community service. I can do both. I'll be fine. Although I wouldn't have lied, six months in prison. but um when it came to november and then they threatened extradition then on paper it was 70 years in jail 70 years it was like 10 seven counts 10 years per count and i just i just went crazy i thought this is absolutely mad what are we gonna do and um there was a lot of um like the ufo community in america wanted me to stand trial in america like a martyr right yes it'll be great he'll come over, he'll, they'll open all the secrets, and he'll make it after, but what America actually said, the DOJ said that I'd be tried under military order number one, which is Guantanamo status, totally secret, no media interview, no media cover, no family visits, you know, me in an orange suit with my red hair, joking, sorry, but yes, it went really scary, like really scary, like over the top like well you know kafka kafka-esque yeah many people said damn hey you must have been uh you must felt horrible you must have been like the the you know world's out to get me or the the most uh powerful nation in the world uh you know is out to get me yeah and uh that that must be a scary feeling yeah well it started in late 2002 and by 2008 because we lost so many court cases and hearings, I'd given up all hope and I thought there's no way I'm going to give my fucking life to a foreign jail. And I bought potassium chloride, one of the three chemicals in the lethal injection. And I thought if I get that decision, I'm just going to not inject it. I looked up how many grams per kilogram of body weight and I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die. Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required to make a decision is whether Mr. McKinnon's extradition to the United States would breach his human rights. After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr. McKinnon's extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life that a decision to extradite would be incompatible with Mr. McKinnon's human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition order against Mr. McKinnon. that was incredible yeah it's heavy that's heavy man that's really intense and I'm sorry it got to that place because that's it's ridiculous if you look at the fact pattern it's just insane and again I'm saying that some of these other whistleblower cases there are nuances to them you know I'm saying yours I think it's an absolute witch that's crazy Yeah, I agree. It's just crazy. Yeah, I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry. I mean, that's just awful. I'm sorry on behalf of my country. Well, you're not the government, Jesse. That's true. I don't have to forgive you. Okay. Well, yeah, it's just not a good representation. But yeah. Well, America is a great country and the people are great. It's just there's been some very bad governance since World War II, in my humble opinion. Yeah. And on this side of the pond as well, the British as well. Sure, yeah. No, and it's crazy that you were, I mean, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Theresa May, all these UK prime ministers were thinking about you. You were this really important case because you said that the extradition law was changed literally like right after you did what you did. yeah this is one thing i didn't mention um we saw a draft of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers and it was written a british extradition treaty with america was written in american english which is kind of a clue as to who's calling the shots and um you know american spelling in an english legal document and also a lot of the phrases were almost verbatim taken from some of my charges. So I think it's not that there's anything special about me, but it was what I did. At that time, the American DOD systems were getting like 250,000 attacks, hacking attacks. If you read the General Accounting Office documents at the time, and still to this day. So I think they needed to do something, and they needed to increase the punishment and they needed a poster boy. So timing is everything, isn't it? Yeah, because there had been big hackers before you, right? Like, what's the name of the guy who hacked into the DOE, Department of Energy and, like, Atomic Labs? Matthew Bevan. Matthew Bevan. Yeah. And so this was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional hacker. Is that safe to say? or also kind of was like a vigilante? Yeah, no, I think he was more skilled than I was. He didn't just do blank password hacking. He found, you know, weaknesses in protocols. Okay. So he was more advanced. But, yeah, he was earlier. He was in the 90s. And then what happened to him? He was basically... Slop on the wrist. He did go through some shit. Don't get me wrong, Matthew, if you're listening. But, yeah, he didn't face a long-term... There are a few of these cases before you where I think in a certain case, it was like 100,000 computers ended up with malware. You know? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. If you want to know who's the most successful hacker, it's not a person. It's a virus. Yeah. The love, love, what's it? I can't remember the name. But I'm talking about specifically there's precedent for UK-based hackers hacking into U.S. systems, which neither of us are suggesting anyone do. You know, it's not, you don't hack into, you know, national security stuff. You know? this is a lesson but in those cases they did worse stuff than you and they just got slaps on the wrist and then you're this like UFO interested you know you want to know if there's like free energy or whatever like for your own edification like not because you want to do some like you know terrorist thing or like undermine you know American supremacy in any way or whatever and like they just come after you Yeah. And so they change the... Which tells you, yeah, what's important to them. Is it someone cleverly stealing money in a cyber-forward way, which a lot of people have done? Mm. Or is it UFO truth? Is it? Yeah. Well, no, it might show that that actually hit a trigger point. Like the cigar-shaped Tic Tac object flying in deep space, that might be this really sensitive thing that they just really don't want to talk about. Then the space supply chain thing, I could see that. They don't want to talk about that either. But as a counterpoint to that, that information was already out. Donna Hare's information was out. So if it's already out, why go so heavy on this guy? As a counterpoint to that, there's proof that you got into these sites. Donna Hare, it's always going to be this single sample size, end of one story told, and you can always be like, that person was crazy. But like when your case, like they have like a, you know, there's a live arrest warrant out on you now. Right. You can't go to the U.S. now. I'm on the Interpol reg list. You're on the Interpol reg list. That's crazy. I don't even think I knew that. Hopefully I'm good. But yeah, like like, you know, with with I think in your case, there's no arguing with the fact that you got into these sensitive sites. to the fact that you're saying you saw a tic-tac you know in deep space but above earth and then you saw these non-terrestrial maybe 40 some odd officers like you know that's that's like pretty it's like a little deeper you know yeah yeah but like to the point that like you shouldn't be blamed it's like you didn't sign something you didn't you didn't like sign up to like you weren't like working at one of these places you were like high in your i'm trying to think how i would manage that if I was Intel. How have we managed this guy? I think they were probably quite happy when I got diagnosed with Asperger's in 2008, 2009. Okay, he's mentally ill. It's fine then. Like a put-away. I would put him in the mentally ill drawer. Do you ever think the chip is somehow either monitoring you A or B it's like feeding you ideas or anything? I don't know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd start glitching right now, yeah. Yeah. Do you ever think it has some sort of, I don't know. No, my mind feels the same as it always has. Okay. But I do want to do some further scanning with my, well, modern enough to do. You should, yeah. Yeah. So interesting. I wish Dr., what was his name, the guy that used to scan implants? He's dead now. Roger Lear. Roger Lear. Yeah. I wish he was around and could come to the UK. Yeah, he'd be the perfect guy. Yeah. I might know of somebody else who can help you out. so later yeah exactly explain what's going on quickly i can't turn my phone off here look look yeah let's document all of this you can see my finger is on the power button and both this is like a hard reset my fingers on the power button and volume up and volume down at the same time and nothing nothing that's never happened before absolutely it's never happened before it's insane but you're with Gary McKinnon and I'm with Gary McKinnon who has a live arrest I didn't do it this was the everything I'd hoped it would be this conversation, it was so fun and I really hope you pull off this Bifield Brown effect, I think it would be this beautiful kind of vindication you know I'm not saying what you did was fine but I think you were completely persecuted in this horrible way. And I love the fact that, by the way, the UK rallied behind you and you ended up, you know, singing with, you know, David Gilmore, you know, the lead singer, the Pink Floyd, you know, and like, you have all these people, you're like kind of this people's champion. Crosby, Stills, and Nash, man, one of my favorite hippie bands from when I was young. Wait, what is it? With Crosby, Stills, and Nash? Yeah. They were like rallying behind you as well? Yeah, they did. They just like mentioned me in one song at one of their gigs, but you know, thousands of people. Ah, I didn't know that. Yeah. It's so cool. You've seen all these bands I'd love when I was little. I was like, God, it was crazy because you're really depressed, but you're seeing all your musical heroes. Yeah. Vouching for you. But you're also, didn't you sing with David Gilmour? Yeah, and Chrissy Hynde and Bob Geldof, but I didn't actually, I only sang in the same studio at the same time with Chrissy Hynde, so I didn't get to meet David Gilmour or Bob Geldof, unfortunately. Well, Wild, thank you, Theresa May, for making the right decision and letting you go. And I think the U.S. should drop their arrest warrant. I think so, too, that I could go on holiday. Yeah, so you can go on a nice vacation. And, yeah, hopefully next time I see you, it's in the States. Yeah, that would be fantastic. It would be great. Thanks for a great interview, man. Absolutely, Gary. No, it was an honor. It was a lot of fun. And, yeah, hopefully, you know, I think we made a little bit of progress here, too, in terms of piecing some things together. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, logistics, supply chain. Exactly. Oh, sweet. All right. weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full link in the description of this video.