Donovan Mitchell’s Career Moment + Full Conference Finals Previews & SGA’s Historic MVP

At John Lewis Money, we know your home is more than an address. It's the sunlight pouring in. Well, sometimes. The coffee on tap and the best spot on the sofa. It's why our home insurance is thoughtfully designed with three levels of flexible cover for the home you've created. Because when you notice the details, you notice the difference. Search John Lewis Money. Terms and exclusions apply. John Lewis Finance Limited is authorised for insurance distribution and credit-broken by the Financial Conduct Authority. Music Hello, and welcome to the Hoop Collective Podcast. We talk about the MBA, what you're doing on Sunday evening. Joining us from New York City, where the Eastern Conference Finals will begin on Tuesday night is Tim Bond-Temps. Kaz Corner, sending a New York City led by its hero, Brian Winters. Well, they send 25 buses of Kaz fans to New York, to the Garden. Doesn't matter. They've got their fearless leader on his way here. It's all the matters. Joining us from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, where earlier this evening he attended Shade Gilgios Alexander's official MVP press conference, and he will be at Game 1 of the Western Conference Finals, on Monday is Van McMahon. Howdy, partners. I would say 25 busloads of tickets at the Madison Square Garden prices that I saw online. If Dan Gilbert does that, I will be awfully impressed. Well, let's just say that Dan Gilbert had skin in the game in a Pistons Cav series. Yes. And hey, I'm happy for Donovan Mitchell. He finally gets that curse off his back of never been to a conference finals, and he gets to fulfill his dream of playing playoff games in Madison Square Garden. You know, he's done that before. When did you do that? They lost in a playoff series the next three years ago. Oh, there you go. There you go. Three years ago. That's right. Well, he has made it to the conference finals from the first. I got to tell you, this was a very difficult series to get your arms around Cavs Pistons as the second round comes to an end on Sunday night. The Cavs winning Game 7 in Detroit, 125-94. The Cavs lost Game 6 at home by 21 points on Friday in a wet noodle performance, where Detroit looked like the team that was playing in the elimination game, and the Cavs looked like they were playing a regular season game. And then it was the Cavs who absolutely played with vastly different force, vastly different focus, and it was the Pistons weaknesses that were brought to the fore, particularly the lack of any ability to help Kate Cunningham on offense. For a seven-game series where the last three games were determined, were won by the road team, it was a curiously non-dramatic finish. Bon Temps, I don't know if I've ever seen a series quite like it. Certainly, we have seen over the last decade, road teams win. I believe there's been more road game seven victories over the last decade than there were like the 30 years before it. Road victims are winning more, but not in a situation like this where you see an absolute annihilation. And the Cavs deserve credit. They played their best basketball when it mattered. But if I was a Pistons fan, I would be pretty upset by the way this one went down. Yeah, I mean, look, the Pistons kicked away a chance to end this series in Game 3, those Kate Cunningham turnovers, and they kicked away Game 5. And it's very hard to win a series when you... Well, their fans would argue that the referee in Game 5 was... I mean, look, yeah, I mean, they should have got that call. I mean, that call looms even larger now, obviously. But at the end of the day, they were... And I was... Lead the charge, certainly, on how they got screwed on that call, but they were up 9 with 3 minutes to go, and they had a ton of turnovers and blew the game. And Kate Cunningham had those 3 turnovers in 35 seconds or whatever it was in Game 3 when they had a chance to go up 3-0. Series would have been over. They lost that game. And, you know, the Cavs, Donovan Mitchell had the one great half in this series, mostly stunk. Otherwise, it certainly compared to what his standard is. And he was the best player on the floor by a mile in this game. It's a big fan's point. This was easily the biggest moment of Donovan Mitchell's career. Like, if they lose this game as the more talented team going into the series, and they blow Game 6 at home, and they lose Game 7 due to Detroit, and they go home, there were massive changes ahead for the Cavs pretty clearly. And that would have been a big mark on Donovan Mitchell's resume to not get this series done. And I think the opening couple minutes of the game, him immediately attacking and not like trying to draw fouls or not trying to do anything else but getting in the paint, creating buckets for Jared Allen, who was awesome, creating a bucket for Evan Mowbly, who was awesome in this game. I think it really set the tone. It caused the Pistons Bigs to sort of start getting panicky about what the Cavs Bigs were doing. That opened up stuff on the perimeter and it snowballed from there. But he was the best player on the court, which is what you need to have in a do or die game like this. And it's going to be a really long and really fascinating summer for Detroit, who had a great season, breakout year, even more so for Kate Gunningham, obviously a breakout year for Jaylen Durin. But his free agency is going to be fascinating. The extension discussions for Isar Thompson are going to be fascinating. And if you watch the Pistons in these 14 games they played in the playoffs, when frankly, if Franz Vagran got hurt, I don't think they would have beat Orlando, this is a team that's pretty far away from being a true contending team. And Trigin Lengen's done a really good job his first couple of years, but this is where the challenge of going from a rebuilding team to a real contender. This is the really hard part, is trying to get from good to great. And the Pistons have a lot of work to do to make up the ground on these other teams in the east. Yeah, I'll just be like fully transparent. I got to watch the first couple of minutes before Shays Press Conference started. And then by the time I got out of there, it was halftime. And so I saw very little of this game that was actually relevant. But having said that, like listen, the concerns about the Pistons roster, obviously reared their ugly heads during the playoffs. And that is just the lack of creation outside of Kate Gunningham. And obviously just the lack of like offensive talent outside of Kate Gunningham. You know, Dennis Jenkins is a nice young player. He's a success story of a dude who broken a league is an undrafted two-way. You know, he's not going to be your secondary playmaker. Jay Nivey was supposed to be that guy. That unfortunately, and quite obviously, did not work out. There's a glaring hole on this roster. And Asar Thompson doesn't profile to be that type of player. Jaylin Durin is a, you know, his bond temps called him a dependent. Offensive player. I, you know, I'm, I would, as the stock dips, I'll still buy Janet Durin's stock. But, you know, he's never going to be a guy like you run offense through. You know, they, they still have flexibility. They still got a bunch of picks. There's still ways to do it. But, you know, as much as I've compared them to the thunder a couple of years ago, even after Jaylin Williams came up short in that second round series against the Mavericks, which wasn't as long as this series, but I would argue is a more competitive series. Against a better team. You still felt like, hey, Jaylin Durin can be that secondary guy. You know, Chet Holman. Jaylin Williams. You mean. I'm sorry. Jaylin Williams can be that secondary guy. Chet Holman, you know, like you felt like, hey, they, they, I think they have their big three. You don't, you don't look at the pistons and feel that way. Okay. So yeah, we'll talk about the calves just more in a second, but just to, the, then this particular game, um, Kate Cunningham had a bad three point shooting night, which happens. He was ove seven on them and when he's not hitting a three point shot and the calves can pack the pain because they're not guarding a Sar Thompson. They're just not guarding them. Um, there was, it was one time tonight where a Sar, where he was being guarded by Evan Mobley. And a Sar caught the ball from the corner and Mobley just stood on the block and looked at him. They, they started, they did that for most of the series. Right. I just think, uh, look, not to cut you off, but there's so much, there's been so much talk about a Sar Thompson and I mean, there were, before the season, there was talk, well, this is, might have to max Sar Thompson. They're going to have to give a ton of money and like, I, he's a really talented player. He's a phenomenal defensive player. A guy that bad on offense cannot be, in my opinion, a starter on a championship level team. He just can't be. It's, he's, so, unless he gets a lot better on offense because he's such a zero. And if you're playing four on five on offense to this degree, this late in the playoffs, which, you know, game seven of the conference semi-finals in the conference finals, it just doesn't work. You can't be that much of a liability at one end of the court or the other. Like we've talked about it so many times. So much of the playoffs is about not having a giant weakness for the other team to exploit at one end or the other. Could be a guy who's a really talented offensive player. Say, Trey Young is, for example, the other way, right? Phenomenal offensive player, zero at the other end. Like, it makes it such a challenge to build a competitive team around that. And particularly with the where the league is at now from a shooting standpoint, that's where I just really wonder what Detroit is going to do going forward. Cause if a SAR is going to be a key piece for them, it just makes the rest of their build so incredibly hard to be good enough to be a real champion. Well, you've got to have terrific shooting elsewhere and they just don't have it. Well, and if you're going to, and then if Jalen Durin's part of it, I think it's impossible. Honestly, like I just don't think you can go through those three guys as your main guys. That's where you're at. Jalen Durin had seven, seven points in this game. He averaged less than 10 points a game in the series. Just, it's just back breaking. I mean, they get to seven, game seven, which is, in all honesty, arguably the most important player for the Pistons in this series after Cade, Cunningham was Duncan Robinson because Duncan Robinson forced floor spreading. When the Cavs won games, you know, one games four and five, it was when Duncan got hurt. And when they came back in one game six was largely because Duncan, not largely, but significantly he comes back and hits four threes to help stretch the Cavs defense a little bit. But anyway, Tobias Harris goes, oh, of six in this game. Unfortunately, his hot streak, which was, you know, the first eight or nine games of the postseason absolutely withered away. Here are his last four games in this series. Six of 17 shooting, six of 19 shooting, two of seven, although the Pistons won that game, game six, handily. And then tonight, oh, of six, just not there to provide assistance. Well, and again, if you're relying on Tobias Harris to the degree they were, where he was their number two scoring option, like that's not, it's not good enough. They were close to getting to the conference finals, do they? They were close to getting to the conference finals in the completely weak half of the bracket. Well, anyway, Marcus Sasser, Marcus Sasser, who JB Bickerstaff just searching for a guard who could get some scoring, played more and more as the series went along. He goes three of 12 in this game. There was just no place for the Pistons to go. It was just, you know, a bad situation. Then on the other side of Cleveland, you know, you mentioned a little bit Buntems, but I think the game plan really, really, they had two facets of the game plan offensively. Donovan Mitchell in games five and six. So he had the 39.5 in game four, one of the most remarkable scoring halves in NBA history in the playoffs. In games five and six, Assar Thompson and Cade Cunningham did a brilliant job of him. They also brought help, but he was 10 of 35 shooting in those two games outside the overtime in game five. In game five's overtime, which got there with the controversial non-call, he made three baskets, but the rest of those games, he was non-effective. He also, in the previous three games coming into this, had only had eight assists total. So he wasn't creating. He wasn't getting a shot going. So they come in tonight and the Cavs, the part of their game plan was to absolutely make sure to get switches, to get Thompson or Cunningham off of Donovan. And then when Donovan got that, he really looked for the big men. Yes, he tried to get downhill, as you mentioned earlier, but when he got downhill, he looked for the big man. The Cavs just ran some basic high-picking rolls tonight, and Donovan was just looking for Jared Allen and Evan Moby coming off the roll. It was really nothing special. He was just, it was something he hadn't really done, and he looked for them. And so you end up with a game where Evan Moby goes seven of 10. Jared Allen goes eight of 14. Donovan has eight assists. Eight assists the last three games total. Eight assists in this game. Eight of eight off his passes, by the way. Is that what they were? Yeah, I think he had three assists in the first two minutes. So those two guys, and he totally set the tone for the game right from the jump. So James Harden plays 36 minutes, goes two of 10. So he has a non-impactful scoring game, but I'm going to tell you something. He only had one turnover in 36 minutes, which is a vast improvement. And Donovan had none. Right. So vast improvement, those guys taking care of the ball. So, yeah, I mean, James Harden was invisible, which is fine, because Donovan Mitchell was Donovan Mitchell, which by the way, is what this team was supposed to be the whole time. It was supposed to be Donovan Mitchell looking like a first team, all NBA caliber player. And other than that one half in the series, he just hasn't really been close to that guy. And again, this was the biggest moment of his career, and he stepped up and was awesome and was exactly the guy that he was supposed to be. And like, as much as everything else that happened, like a lot of times this comes down to the best player, right? And Donovan Mitchell played like the best player, and Kate Cunningham did not. And like for everything else that went on, that was a huge part of why the game went the way it did. And Mowgli, 21, 12 rebounds, six assists, a couple steals, a couple blocks, and he was a game best plus 31. Yeah, obliterated jail and during like just that. I mean, that was a no contest. Jared Allen, I want to just point out in game seven against the Raptors had 22 points and 19 rebounds. And then 23 points, 13, seven rebounds in this one. Yeah, those guys were great. The Cavs. And I don't like stats where their historic stats would like, you know, go Oklahoma City has won 14 straight game threes against San Antonio. Why don't care about 1999. None of these guys were there for any of them. Right? But I will say it is fascinating that the Cavs have won, I think, six straight game sevens dating back to, remember that game, Cavs Celtics in 2008 when the Celtics won game seven in this round. And it was LeBron had 45 and Pierce had, Paul Pierce had 41 classic round two game. Cavs lost that game seven in Boston. They have not lost a game seven sense in six that they've played. That's a loud stuff. I think four of them have, at least three of them a bit on the road, maybe even four of them. And more relevant to these Cavs right now, Jared Allen had a reputation as a playoff shrinker. Right? I mean, what was his quote after his first playoff? Something like, I didn't realize the lights were bigger. The lights were brighter than I thought. It's something along the lines of the lights were brighter than I thought. Yeah, somebody had like the lights were. Yeah. And to his credit, you just said what he did, what he did in these two game sevens, like when they really needed Jared Allen to deliver so far in his playoffs, he stepped up, he's come through and had big time performances. And by the way, him and Moby are going to be absolutely critical in this series. Because if you can take Carl Anthony Towns out of the series, I would say you have to take Carl Anthony Towns out of games to have a chance to win the series. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. This episode is brought to you by Expedia and Visit Scotland. Start your story in Scotland. Experience the pool of wide, untamed landscapes and fresh cuisine that feels rooted in place. Discover castles steeped in legend and feel the genuine warmth from locals you meet in a place that will stay with you long after you leave. Start planning your own Scottish holiday today at Expedia.co.uk slash Visit Scotland. Or any other new Voxel on top of all other offers. Search Voxel car offers. Offer to private individuals, 1000 pounds, including the AT, saving on new car orders between 15 to 31st of May. Must be registered by 30th of June, 2026, 18 plus seasons to supply. All right, so let's turn the page to what is happening in less than 48 hours as we're recording this. Cavs going to visit the Knicks. The Knicks pick up home court advantage as the three seed. They were also 0-3 against the Pistons in the regular season, although I don't think the Knicks of the current vintage compare that much to the regular season. So I think the bigger factor is that they get home court advantage, not that they avoided the Pistons. I don't think the two teams were the same as when they played in the regular season. The Knicks are going to have nine days, nine or 10 days off between games. That is a really good thing for OG Annobe. OG Annobe, hopefully will be back from that hamstring issue. Josh seems he'll be ready to go for game one. So you have one team that's well rested, one team that's coming off back to back seven game series. The Cavs will have some rhythm. Obviously the Knicks, Bontemps were playing their best basketball of the season, just blew the 76ers right off of the court. This matchup, the Cavs obviously, they are going to probably try to lean on their front court just as they did in this series because the Cavs front court depth is stronger than the Knicks. But the Knicks front court historically has given these Cavs problems, specifically Mitch Robinson, who has kicked the Cavs in the backside numerous occasions. And so that will be a key, I think, early thing to look at. Obviously, whether or not the Knicks have are able to continue to get this. The Knicks offensive production has been dramatically impressive. I would argue that of the eight teams left in the second round, do I want to say this? Do the Cavs have the weakest defense? They certainly have the weakest defense of the remaining teams. The Cavs defense is going to be stressed against that New York offense. But Bontemps, how do you see this shaping up? I think the Knicks are pretty heavy favorites with their recent form coming into the series. I'm going to pick the Knicks. Might be. I'm going to pick the Knicks in five. The Cavs have been pretty awful for these first two rounds of the playoffs. In the irony, and they have been, like, Brian's the leader of Cavs Corner. Will you not say this has been a very disappointing showing through the first two rounds, despite them being in the conference finals? Have they played lower than what your expectations would be for the amount of talent they have? I think the thing to point out is, they're eight and six so far in the playoffs. If a team is eight and six, they very clearly have exploitable flaws and also their flaws that undercut them. Now, that being said, these are the two teams that at the start of the year were expected to be here. That is the irony of the situation. The Cavs and the Knicks entered the season as the co-favorites in the East for a reason. They both have a lot of talent. You saw in this game seven today, the Cavs played much like the team they were supposed to be. That is why this has been sort of an infuriating run for them, because they have not really looked like that team for the most of these playoffs. They have wheezed their way through a Raptors series where the Raptors were all banged up with injuries and couldn't really score. And they then wheezed their way through this series against the Pistons, who had one guy who could really handle the ball and often couldn't really score and still almost won the series anyway. But in game seven, you saw Donovan Mitchell look like a star. You saw the Biggs play great. They hit shots on the perimeter. They did all the stuff they can do. And they're going to have to play like they did in game seven repeatedly if they're going to beat the Knicks with the way the Knicks are playing. Now, Hey, McMan, quote, fresh quote from Kenny Atkinson. Uh-oh. The tactical adjustment we made was avoiding a star Thompson. We were just like if he's near the ball, throw it to somebody else. Fontemps was like put him on the bench. He's not a slow starter. But listen, and then, yes, avoid him and then fight him. It was avoid him on one end and invite him to shoot it on the other. Yeah, that's true. It's true. I mean, they should have, I mean, it, they would have been better off benching him, honestly, and playing him in different, off the bench instead. But anyway, that's a separate discussion. You know, Tony Allen, one of the all-time great perimeter defenders. I forgot where he said this. It might have been when he was doing some podcasts and stuff with Chris Rarnab. But he basically said, they're getting guys who have jumpers like me out of the league now. And a star Thompson is a modern day, you know, he's a bigger, stronger, faster Tony Allen. That's what he is. And we'll see if he can develop a jump shot. The Warriors 2015 title run turned when they were down to one against Memphis and they started putting their center in Drupalgate on Tony Allen. This is a man, I'll never forget this book that I read when I was a kid about Ted Williams. And Ted Williams said that the pitcher that affected him the most in his career was Bob Feller. That he would think about Bob, if Bob Feller was pitching like game three of a series, he'd be thinking about him before the game one of the series. And so that's the greatest, I thought it was like one of the greatest compliments you could ever give was that Ted Williams, one of the greatest hitters of all time, would be thinking about a pitcher, would get in his head two days before he pitched against him. I remember when I covered the series Memphis against Oklahoma City. Tony Allen, this is Durant like pretty much when he was just ascending to being, I think he, I don't know if he won the MVP that year, but I was that was that that 2012 series when they had all the overtime series, overtime games. I think this was the infamous Mr. Unreliable headline series. That's correct. It's one of the great series I've ever covered, seven game series, the Thunder one and seven. And I remember by game four, because it was in Memphis, Tony Allen had hounded Durant so much that there would be times where Durant would come off, he would run around screens and sometimes they would stagger screens, they would run them off around two screens and Durant would catch the ball. I saw this multiple times. Durant would catch the ball at the top of the key. The screens having caught Allen, Allen would be 10 feet behind him, eight feet behind him and Durant would immediately turn his body and protect the ball because Allen had been there so much that you just assumed he would, this is seven foot Kevin Durant, how tall is Tony Allen? Six four, six five, Tony Allen. And what I'm saying is this is one of the greatest scores in the history of the game. And Allen, like Ted Williams, the Bob Feller, Allen was in his head that he didn't need, his defense was so strong that he didn't even have to be there to defend him. And so when you compare somebody to Tony Allen, it is a defensively, it is a very high compliment. Assar Thompson is awesome. I voted Assar Thompson first team all defense. He's a tremendous defensive player. Offensively, he's got a lot of room for growth. That's all. This is what makes the playoffs so awesome. It's why they're, it's so incredibly fun is as you go through them and you get deeper and deeper into the playoffs, your weaknesses as a team and as individual players really get exposed and there's nowhere to hide. And it is what makes getting through the four rounds so fun to watch because you have to watch how teams evolve and react and learn. And you know, Assar Thompson is still a super young player. He's got a very long future out of him. Hopefully he becomes a better offensive player to match how incredibly impactful his defense is because he does some of the most fun defensive stuff you'll see anybody do in the league. But to go back to Cavs, Nix, the thing I'm going to be really interested in is Donovan Mitchell and James Harden have looked tired at times during this series and during this run. They've had to play every other day for a month. As you said, they've had to play two seven game series. The Nix are very rested. The Nix have a lot of guys they can throw at both of those guys. And the Cavs, ironically, the guy who's probably best suited to guard Jalen Brunson on the Cavs is Keon Ellis, who's barely played. Other than that, they don't really have a lot of guys to throw at Jalen Brunson. And you know, like we just talked about Assar Thompson, between him and Jalen Durin and some of these other guys, the Pistons have several guys that they could sort of just ignore. When the Nix are rolling out there, Summon OG is good. And by all indications, he'll be ready to go for game one. Like you can maybe ignore Josh Hart, but Josh Hart is a terrific shot creator. He gets into pain, creates shots for other guys. But especially if they're bringing Langer Shamet off the bench, they're bringing Deuce McBride off the bench, like the Nix are an offensive juggernaut, especially the way they're playing. And with the perimeter guys the Cavs have, the Nix can really take advantage of that, I think. So to me, this is about, can Donovan Mitchell and James Harden play at a high level consistency, consistently, which I think they're going to need to in this series? And what are the Cavs going to do to try to slow down Jalen Brunson? Because that to me is going to be a real challenge for them based off the personnel they're going to have out there. Well, and the strength of Cavs defense is obviously they're two big guys. It's Mowgli and Allen. And against the Pistons, Mowgli and Allen could pack the paint and basically just put a wall around the rim. And you cannot do that, especially against the Nix starting lineup where they've got self-proclaimed, greatest shooting big man of all time. And they can put five guys out there that even Josh Hart, you have to respect him as a three-point threat. I mean, he's shooting 39% from three this year. That's been one of the huge revelations of the season. And Kat, you have to fear as a three-point threat. You know, if Annobe's health, you have to fear him as a three-point threat. So they can spread the floor where that's the biggest weakness of the Pistons is just that you can really clog things up for them on the defense bin. And the Nix also have a lot of guys to throw at Donovan Mitchell, too, in particular, I think, to Miquel Bridges and Hart. They can put McBride on them a little bit, maybe even try to put OG on them. They got a lot of guys that could cycle through and wear on him. And, you know, he was incredible today, but he's got to be like he was in Game 7, I think, consistently, if they want to beat the Nix. Donovan and Hart have been both very up and down in the postseason. Now, what the Cavs might say is that's the point, is that they have the two of them to share the ball handling, to share the offensive creation, to share the, you know, getting hammered and going to the basket, to share all that stuff so that they have the redundancy. That's what they would probably say is the whole point of this, is that Donovan doesn't have to be great. Because a couple of years ago, like against Boston, he was trying to carry them and he eventually broke down in the series. I don't know that he has to carry them. He has to be great, though. He's got to be a lot better than he was in the series. He's got to, he can't be, he was a passenger for a lot of the series. He's got to be doing what he did today. He doesn't have to, he doesn't have to be necessarily the best player on the court. But he's like, he was just not very good. But again, by Donovan Mitchell standards, his standards very high. He had a 31 point game, a 35 point game, a 43 point game. And then today he had 26, seven rebounds, eight of six. Today was truly that one half, the 39.5 from the 43 point game. And today, where the two times you're like, Donovan Mitchell looks like the guy on the court. And like, for them to beat this next team, I think he's got to play like that a lot more than twice. He's got to be really good. Probably three or four times, at least. Yeah, but we'll be charting that series very closely. I will be joining Bon Temps for that series. You guys just have fun together. Yeah, that's some Cleveland days coming up. Some big Cleveland days. All of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.espn.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. So all of ESPN, all in one place, sign up or activate now. All right, McMahon, while you were, well, Bon Temps and I were keeping a very close eye on this game, I missed the Shea press conference. So now you can tell us what was going on while Game 7 was happening. You know, just kind of your typical Shea and BP press conference. A lot of the same stuff as last year. Express great appreciation for everybody from the top of the organization on down, the fans, et cetera, et cetera. Quite a nice gift for his teammates. Actually, there was a gift basket. I got the complete list here, the Ashams, but all these guys show up, you know, they flank him on the, I guess, stage where you want to call it, the press conference, and they've all got these trench coats. How did Shay know he was winning the MVP? Like, I thought he was... Oh, geez. I guess he did a lot of shopping after Shams tweeted it this morning. Maybe he read the straw poll from Bon Temps. Oh, has that been a foregone conclusion for a while? Bon Temps, what was the straw poll results versus the Shay final? 88 to 83, I believe, was the first place votes. Is that correct? I had this up earlier and then I took it down. Let's see. I want to say it was like a 13 point difference. Yeah, 88, I think, was in your straw poll. He ended up with 83 first place votes. Yeah, they had 958 total points in the straw poll and in the... This one, he had 939. Yeah. I mean, and look, Shay finished the season strong and obviously was the clear front runner going into that. But, you know, all these guys end up, or they show up, wearing these trench coats. And so my one question to press conference, I was like, what's up with the trench coats? I thought there was like some great symbolism. It was just like, no, we're a fashion conscious group and these are Burberry. And he said he was glad to see everybody's trench coat fit with the exception of Chet. I've never seen a trench coat look like a crop top before, but this thing barely, I think it barely covered like maybe it went down to his waist. So he said he's gonna have to... Are you sure Chet didn't, Chet being the swag master that he was, didn't take scissors to it and say, I want to make this my own? They're gonna get one customized to fit Chet. He said he said he might have to get them too, but he, show him some of the list of his gift baskets. I'm gonna botch the pronunciation. You know, these fancy AP watches are the Audemars Pigway or something. I don't even know how to pronounce it. Audemars Piguet, that's not bad. Not a bad pronoun. That's a pretty nice watch. That's, you know, probably engraved with, you know, with, Shay P26 on the back, customized PXG golf bags and sets. Is that good, Wendy? PXG is, I didn't know Shay was a golfer. Yeah. He's also not a drinker, but they got custom Don Julio 1942 bottles and custom Levi's Canadian... I would rely on you. I know you're not a spirits man, but I don't know. I don't know what kind of beverage that... PXG is a, you know, it's a mid-scale brand of clubs, Parsons, Palsons. Don Julio 1942, some of the good stuff. I mean, you know, well, I won't... Bon Tepes, can you comment on the Burberry trench coats? What can you... Oh, no, that Burberry knows high fashion. We can't afford it. But you know, Shay's got a Levi's deal. That's a window purchase. That's a window purchase. Levi's Canadian tuxedo sets that are customized with their numbers stitched on them. That's actually pretty cool. Some of these stuff, some iPhones, some colognes, some other stuff. So, you know, Shay, Shay takes care of his teammates and if he did, he thanks his teammates for setting all the screens and, you know, pass them the ball. He said, even though I never passed you. But so, yeah, celebratory mood, but also like, you know, hey, let's smile and enjoy this tonight. But they know they got their hands full tomorrow. Hey, do you remember a couple of years ago when Embiid won the MVP and Hardin gave him like the super sweet Rolex was like worth tens of thousands of dollars? Hardin gives nice presents. What was... Oh, when he gave a little baby the honey buns? I mean, and by honey buns, we mean $100,000. There's got to be more to that story. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, here this is Shay giving gifts, but I mean, like Hardin gave gifts to Embiid. Like, how's that? How does that work? Well, Shay's doing pretty well for himself. But, you know, this is interesting. When I think MVP and Spurs, obviously, I first flashback to Dave Robinson getting the MVP. This is exactly what I was thinking about. I have the game up. Keep going. I have the game up. So Dave, this was 95, correct me if I'm wrong. That's correct. He got the MVP and it was, was it in the middle of the series? It was before game two. Okay, before game two of the series. And let me just set the scene here real quick. Rockets win the 1994 championship. Paquem is the MVP of that season. The first year Jordan's playing baseball. 95, they come back. They are playing the Suns in the second round. They fall down to the Suns 3-1. And then when the last three games of the series win game seven by a point. I don't remember how they won game seven by a point. San Antonio is the number one seed. David Robinson is had a brilliant year. The Rockets are in to play games one and two of the Western Conference finals. And I was a 17 years old. I remember this series vividly. Before game two, at, that had to have been the Alamo Dome, right, McMahon? At the Alamo Dome. At the Alamo Dome, David Stern, in fact, I went back and watched the video tonight of David Stern handing Robinson, making a statement, handing him the trophy. Now you may take over the story. And Akema Lajuan went out in game two. And this is one of the most famous one-on-one playoff matchups in an individual game that you'll ever find. Completely just dismantled David Robinson. And it was essentially a statement saying, you think that's the most valuable player in the league? Let me show you and leave zero. 41 points, 16 rebounds. No threes. Boy, he's down. He's, he's stunk. David Robinson had 32 and 12. Wasn't like he got shut out. But if you've ever seen the highlights of Akeem's, the dream shake, and he was seeing that from that game, or he's getting Robinson off balance and everything like that. I just went and looked up one of my favorite stories I ever wrote was in 2017, Ben and I cover Rocket Spur series, the infamous Rocket Spur series for some people, because that was when Kauai Winter didn't play in Houston in game six, and James Harden in one of his many playoff no shows did not show up in game six. I was gonna say, I didn't play in Ben Harden in show. That's right. But during that series, or during those playoffs, I wrote about this series, and I talked to Akeem on the phone for the story, him and David Robinson. And to Akeem, I was just looking at my story and now you guys were talking. And Akeem claimed to me on the phone that he, that the warning of the MVP had nothing to do with his performance in that series and the way it went. And I, and I, I just politely listened along and included the quote for context. It's that sure. Well, and Wimby might make a similar claim tomorrow, but I don't think he will. I think he will just say that he shouldn't want it. But, and there's a couple differences here. Number one, Akeem was fresh off winning the championship, right? Whereas Wimby, this is his first taste of the playoffs and Shays won his fresh off winning championship. That's the first. And then obviously, that doesn't matter to Victor though, but go ahead. I know. And then obviously, you know, this is not a one on one matchup. These aren't two bigs matching up. Now is Wimby, like the will he have a lot to do with the defending of Shays? Absolutely. Shays probably not going to have a whole lot to do with the defending of Victor Wimmy and Yama, but you know, it's the two faces, the franchise on these are the, this is the first time we've seen two teams with, with this many wins play each other since I believe the last bulls, uh, jazz finals. But I got to talk to Shays for a little bit after his press conference today. And the majority of its first store that are running the late this round or early in the finals, depending. Um, our buddy Matt Tummelsen, the, VP of propaganda for the thunder, he said seven, 10 minutes. We're big fans of Teddy Tummelsen. Well, we're fans of the old man too. Yeah. Because he said seven to 10 minutes and I took 14. But, and he said, he said, then he said, Tim, we got to go. I said, one more. And I asked, I said, listen, man, I, in so many words, I said, you know, Wimby's going to see this and he's going to be, he's going to feel a certain kind of way. And like, you know, basically, what do you, uh, what do you expect? You know, going into that series tomorrow. And he said, this, in this profession, this league guys are extreme competitors. You don't make it, uh, to be this good in this league. If you're not a competitor and if you're not super confident in your ability, and if you don't think the highest of yourself, that's how you achieve things. You have to think for your achievements. No different for him. And he said, obviously he presents things that you've never seen. So the challenge is obvious. Everyone knows the challenge and none of this stuff matters if you don't win. So he's basically, you know, he's not talking trash. He's basically saying, I understand the guy thinks he's the best player in the league and we understand the challenge. And he'll let his game do his talking from that point out as, as she would say. Bon Temps, were you surprised at all that Victor finished third in the MVP voting behind Yokic? Nothing, nothing against Yokic. No, I wasn't, I wasn't that surprised. I mean, you got, you remember. Was Victor surprised? That's what I wanted to know. I mean, Victor, I'm sure was surprised he didn't win, but I, um, I remember the Nuggets ended the season winning, I believe their final 13 games in a row. That's correct. You're right. We had Victor second and Yokic third basically with the same totals reversed. But that was before. Um, I believe that was the Friday before that incredible game that the Nuggets won against the Spurs on either Saturday or Sunday of that second to last weekend of the regular season. Um, When Joker had like 40 points, 13 assists and zero turnovers and hit the crazy soundboard shuffle and overtime over Victor. So I'm not shocked it went that way. I mean, again, what the only thing that mattered was the chair was going to win in a walk, which is what he did. And, um, I mean, look, I, this series has got a chance to be an all time great series. I spent a weekend talking to a bunch of people in the league for a story that's going to run Monday, um, preview in the series and sort of from what people in the league are going to be watching. And we had talked to a lot of people for stories and different things in the league. I've rarely had people be as excited to talk about something as they were to be breaking down this series. And like from a pure basketball perspective, um, this series has everything you could ask for. I think from a conference finals standpoint, it's automatically the best series since when Tim and I covered a decade ago between the Warriors and Thunder, which looked like it was going to be the start of an unbelievable rivalry and obviously was immediately short circuited by Kevin going to the other team. I don't think you have to worry about Victor. I don't think you have to worry about Victor or Shay doing that this time around. Oh, no. Um, and that looks so great. These teams are going to be meeting in the playoffs. I would say most years for the next eight to 10 years at least. That's what somebody said to me for the story. They said the thing that I'm most excited about as a basketball person is that these teams are going to be going head to head and have, having to almost certainly beat one or the other to get through or one of them is going to have to win against the other to make it through for maybe the next decade. And I mean, they were, they brought up Magic and Bird. They brought up Jordan against the Celtics and the Pistons. They brought up Bird Magic, who would make that except for by the way, Chet's not part of that. Well, no, this was just about the teams. Like it's, it's just, you know, it's like, am I glad I went two years, three years ago and watched Victor's first game against Chet in the preseason. I mean, it's, it's incredible. You discovered Victor and Chet. You brought him to the masses. You've brought so much joy to all of us. It's going to be an unbelievable rivalry going forward. Say what you want. This is, you know, Wendy was in on the ground on, on Webby. Except he's not covering the series. It's such a, it's such a sad thing. He should be, should be wrapping them in a loving embrace before this massive series thing. There ain't no love for the ESPN, you know, studio shows go and it's not his fault. He'll get it. It's true. And get it every other year. It's true. This quote from a, from a assistant coach that you had in your story, Bond Temps was, I think, one of my favorite. And really, I think is a, is a fair sort of assessment is the way the league kind of looks at this. Shea is bleeping good, but he ain't a cheat code. Wemby is a cheat code. Yeah. And this is, this series is a clear cut opportunity for Wimby to say, Hey, I told you, and I'm showing you, I am the most dominant player in the league. It's my league now. He has that chance to grab it and say, it's my league now, because right now it is Shea's league. He's back to back MVPs with the finals MVP in between. Wimby's got a chance to take it. And and if Victor takes this one, if Victor takes this one, you might, we might just be a rat for a long time because like these guys are just getting started. Yeah. And Spurs obviously coming with a ton of confidence in part based on the regular season success that they had where they go for one against a thunder, you know, three, three and one against what I would say like is the real deal thunder with Shea in the lineup. A huge part, you know, we just talked about a Sarr Thompson and his, the fact you don't have to guard him being such a factor in that series, a huge part of the thunder success was being able to pack the paint and say, you know, Shea, you're not going to beat us. The guys got to beat us and basically giving invitations to Alex Caruso to case in Wallace and to Lou Dort to shoot threes. Caruso and Wallace were both five of 21 from three point range against the Spurs this year. Dort was a little bit better. Dort was eight of 21, which isn't bad, but that it was there. The Thunder offense wasn't very good with Dort on the floor. You know, you remember Christmas where I think Caruso, I believe he missed his first 10, first nine or 10, he ended up two and 12 and that came from three. Now I think that you'll, you'll see a lot of that again. Having said that, there's risk involved in that because Caruso, Wallace and Dort are exactly 40% from three in the playoffs. They're 40 of a hundred. So they're 40% at volume. And Caruso, he hasn't been a good three point shooter in the regular season with the Thunder. He's shooting it better than 40% in playoff games with the Thunder. So the, you know, I think those guys, those, their defensive stoppers or formative shooters, I think is going to be a huge factor in this series. Another thing that you wrote about here in your piece and you quoted some scouts on was the match up Spontemps. And, you know, in the last series, the, you know, we talked about it leading up to this, but the last series, the Timberwolves spent quite a bit of time putting Rudy Gaubert on Steph Castle. And, you know, Castle hit some shots in that series. I didn't go well for him in the finale, I asked for sure. But this, some people you talked to suggested that Shay could start on Castle and that Chet Holmgren would start on Julian Champagny, who also hit some shots. The biggest question, I mean, that really on both sides, it's just going to be interesting to see how everybody matches up off the jump, right? So let's just go right to the very opening tip of the series. Last year, Mark Dagnall went away from Isaiah Hardstein in game one and went small to start the series, went back to the normal starting lineup they have in game four. I didn't like that at the time because the Thunder were the favorites going into the series. And it reminded me of when the, the 07 Mavericks like reacted to the, we believe, Warriors and went small and were like reacting to the lower seed. Even though obviously the Pacers were a great team, I'm not denigrating them, but the Thunder were a 68 win team. They won play in one way. I thought it was an admission of weakness walking into the series like, well, we can't play the way we're going to play. It'll be interesting to see which way they go to start the series. Like will they try Isaiah Hardenstein in the starting lineup from the beginning and who will he guard? And do you try him on Victor to start? Do you try to put him on Steph Castle to start? Do you try to put him on Champani to start? Where do you put Shea? Where do you put Chet Holmgren? Can the Thunder get away with playing two bigs against the Spurs? If not, that obviously changes things. If they have to go small, if they have to have just Chet out there, then Chet stay out of foul trouble. Like you said, on the other end, like what ways can the Thunder sort of do different things to try to get Victor Wimmyn Yama out of Shea's way and out of these other players' way to be able to create space? Do you do it a lot of times what the Wolves did and try to get bodies on them? Do you try to play five out as much as possible and try to space the floor even more? There's just so many little tactical wrinkles in this series with these two teams with the amount of depth they have. And the other thing that came up a ton was the sheer amount of ball pressure that the Thunder play with and the relentlessness they attack on the perimeter with. And how will the Spurs guards and in particular how will Safon Castle and Dylan Harper handle that? Because those guys have been incredible and their development has been a remarkable thing. For as incredible as Victor is, it's really the development of those guys, which is why this team is where they're at because those guys are so far ahead of schedule, maybe even more so than Victor. But this is a different challenge. Like going up against this Thunder team and the Mountain, Kasein Wallace and Lou Dord and Alex Caruso were all top 10 perimeter defenders in the league and they're all going to be out there for 48 minutes a night. So how are they going to hold up against that over the course of seven games? Because as one person said, if you could take care of the ball against these guys, you've got a chance. But anytime you give up anything to them in transition and you give up fast break points, to turn over, like we've talked about 100 times, it's just death to you if you're given up fast break transition points off turnovers to the Thunder. Well, and that's one thing that was remarkable to see during that stretch of the three games and 12 nights when the Spurs won all three. And it was a relatively healthy Thunder team is just how unbothered their young guards in particular seemed by the pressure. I mean, Steph Cassive is 20 points shooting 55% from the floor, 43 from three point range. He was basically 20 and five. And then Dylan Harper didn't shoot it as well. But you know, there were times where he looked like just a poised vet and you know, had a three to one assist to turnover ratio. Fox played well in those games. It's a different beast in the playoffs. I get that. But it was surprising to me to see just how comfortable they felt against the best defense by a significant margin in the league. By the way, I'd be surprised if she starts out on Castle. I don't think the Thunder want to give shade that physically taxing of a primary defensive assignment. Like the cell can get hot. Champini can be a laser from three when he gets going. But it's not the same kind of just physically taxing assignment to guard one of those guys. My guess is she's going to get one of those guys. I would guess you're right. And also, like I said, some of it just will come down to who do they decide to start? Like, do they decide to go small right off the bat? And do they play case in wallace instead of Hartenstein? Hey, do they decide to start Jalen Williams coming back off this hamstring, which also true. He felt good enough to play in game four. And obviously up three, oh, they're going to take it easy with him and be cautious. You know, he's been out since what, April 22nd? So I can't do the math. That's 25 days. We had three and a half weeks or so. But do they put him right back in the starting lineup? You know, especially as well as AJ Mitchell was playing, you know, what's his minutes limit? You know, these are things that I assure you, Dagonal, it's not going to reveal pregame. We can ask, we will not get very far with that. But you know, that's part of it because as much as we talk about Wallace and Dort and Caruso, Jalen Williams was an all defensive player last year. And he's, maybe their most versatile defender, and the only reason I say maybe is because Caruso is so versatile. But he's a huge part of their defensive success as well. Obviously, the Spurs deserve a ton of credit for their performance against OKC this year. And I was at the NBA Cup game where they obviously played great in one and Victor came back from the injury and played. Then it is worth calling out though, just to go back to like how much different this could be than those matchups. You want to know, for our guy, Stats Williams, who guarded Victor the most in those games in the Thunder Spurs games this season? Kenneth Williams. Kenneth Williams is the answer. And Kenneth Williams is a nice player. I suspect he's not going to see very much time. He hasn't been in the playoff rotation this season. So, correct. Well, one of the methods, I mean, I think we're headed for a spot with Victor where it becomes like Shaq, where for different reasons, there's no real one method that you have that is effective and scarred against him. I think we're already there now. In doing this, in the section of the story, like I wrote about, the thing people immediately came up with the most was how were the guards going to play, like is the thing to watch. Like, I just asked everybody, like, what's the biggest thing you're watching going into the series? The biggest thing most people said was, well, how are the guards going to handle it for the Spurs? And are these young guards going to be up to the challenge? Because it's a huge challenge on a big stage and they haven't been here before. The most fun thing people had to talk about though was what is the Victor versus the Thunder chess match going to look like? And how are they going to try to create space for Shaq? And some of it is Shaq's probably best midrange shooter in the league, I would say. And that's a weapon that if you're not getting to the rim, but you're getting to the midrange, that's a way to get up some clean looks against Victor, at least in theory. Kind of, because Victor can defend the rim and defend the midrange. Well, I mean, he can defend all over the place. But some of the jump shots at Victor blocks, it's like, how the hell did he get to that? Right. I mean, look, I don't want to overanalyze the series before it begins. We'll have plenty of time to talk about it. But you know, Shaq's bread and butter is getting to the elbow area, creating space and shooting. Well, he creates space largely, sometimes he creates space with the dribble, but largely he creates space with his physicality, with his arm. And sometimes he gets to the foul line. Well, Victor doesn't have to touch him to defend him. And he can come in and defend the shot very effectively. That said, Shaq's skill development and honing his ability to hit that 15 to 18 footer from all angles, from different balances, from, you know, elevating the ball at different angles, like he's a master at it. And he may have in the arsenal the ability, for all I know, he's been practicing shooting over seven foot five, whatever his wingspan is, maybe he'll bring that out. But you know, the ground, the defense radius that Wenbenyama covers is outside the bounds of the normal thing that you deal with. No, it's unprecedented. Forget outside the bounds. We've never seen anything like that before. Not with that wingspan and that athleticism and those instincts. We've never seen this before. Yeah. And that's why there was, you know, some people were saying, Hey, you've got to do some version of what, what the the walls did. And you've got to be really physical with them and get, get into those guys and make it hard. Other people said, look, you've got to run as much as possible and guard in transition and try to wear him down. Like one thing that's going to be interesting is, you know, the Spurs have done a really good job of managing Victor's minutes all season. And like not having him play huge minute loads. I'm not saying he's incapable of playing huge minutes loads, but if he has to play 36 to 40 minutes every other day with no break for two weeks against a team that's going to be flying up and down and playing at a fast pace and pushing the tempo and doing that over and over and over again and probably banging on them and having Ludort lean on them and Jim Williams lean on them. And as they are starting lean on them, like over and over again for seven games, is he going to get tired? Is he going to wear down? Like, how is that going to go? Like, because yeah, he is like the perfect analog for this Spurs team is the 1995 Magic, who before that year had never won a playoff game as a franchise and then made the NBA funds, or they lost to the defending champion Brock, it's in a sweep, but they, they were, they had a obviously a young Shaq, who is probably the best analog to Victor that we have, even if it's not perfect. They had young Penny, who is like Steph Castle in terms of this young superstar rising guard. And they had no playoff experience really on their team. They had a couple of guys with some, but their main guys had none really. And they all of a sudden just burst through every ceiling and made the fines. Like that. And I think the Victor and young Shaq comparison is apt in a lot of ways. And like that, there's not a way to stop this guy. It's just, how can you try to slow him down enough to give yourself a chance to win? Yeah, well, we're going to be watching it very closely. Playoff experience, things funny, because that, that was the big flaw that everybody was picking out with the Thunder at this time last year. I haven't yet to see, other than Victor losing his cool and slamming an elbow that cost his team a game, I believe. I have yet to see many indications that the Spurs cannot handle this situation. Well, this is when we're going to find out. Like they played, they played an overmatch team in the first round and they played an injured team in the second one. And they, they bound, they've handled it perfectly. But this is, this is a different level. This has all the ingredients to be just an absolutely epic series and an epic rivalry. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I mean, this, this has a chance to be one of the two or three best rivalries in the history of the sport. Like these two teams going at it for the next five to 10 years. Like it's, it's all, it's all sitting there. There are still a lot of casual fans who haven't seen Wimbenyama play that much. They may have seen highlights of him play. But I suspect, especially with the Western Finals on NBC, that we'll get a bigger audience that will all be on broadcast. It's a show. Oh, it's a show. I would expect there to be more casuals that understand what we have here. But we don't have casuals on this podcast. This is a huge moment for the league. Like this, this, you know, really going all the way back to 2016 when Durant left, like things have just been kind of off kilter and for different reasons. And we haven't really had, you know, the next couple of years, even when the Cavs and Warriors played with Durant there, it just wasn't, they weren't really competitive series. Nobody really thought the Cavs had a chance to win those series. This, this is really the first time since 2016 when you're going into the series. And it's like, these are two potentially all time great teams. And I have absolutely no idea how it's going to go. Like I'm going to pick the thunder to win, but I don't, I don't feel great about it. Like I certainly think this first can. And with Rostam, they're both ascending teams. Yes. They're both young guys who are superstars who are getting better with supporting stars who are getting better. I mean, Chase, 26, McMahon, 27. I mean, he's, and he's the old man of the group. And he gets better every single year. Yeah. And me being his just, I mean, it's got a chance to, I mean, it's truly got a chance to be an all time iconic rivalry. And it's, we're at the start of it. All right, here we go. All right. Thank you so much to Jackson and Mark, our producers. Thank you to McMahon and Bantams. Thank you for listening and watching the Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you as this conference final season unfolds. Adios amigos.