Thirteen w. Bree Essrig

Hello, you and welcome to You Are Good, a feelings podcast about movies today. We are talking about 13 and we're talking about it with Bree Esrig. I am your host, Alex Steed. Welcome. You are good at feelings podcast about movies is exactly what it sounds like. This is the show where we talk about movies and we talk about the feelings they evoke. We are not film critics. We're here to ask, what's this movie all about? And how does it make me feel? And why does it make me feel that way? That's what we do here on You Are Good. Please pardon any issues with the audio both in this intro in the episode itself. I'm recording this on my phone, this introduction because I am unexpectedly away today or I'm away, but unexpectedly forgot my mic. And then the audio in this episode on Bree was traveling, so it wasn't sort of the most ideal situation for recording, but it's great because we get to talk with Bree about 13. So it's a super fun conversation. Just know that we know that the audio is not ideal, but we had a lovely time talking about this movie. Heads up, 13 covers a lot of ground with regard to the nightmare that being a 13-year-old girl can be. We talk about all sorts of things. We talk about substance abuse. We talk about sex. We talk about self-harm. We talk about cutting. We talk about sexual abuse. We talk about many things in this episode. So this one's a heavy one. I will have a specific trigger warning in the episode when we talk about self-harm and cutting, but just know we're talking about a lot of stuff throughout this episode. So if that's something that you're not feeling today, just know that that's in here so that you can make decisions accordingly. 13 is a 2003 psychological coming-of-age, drama teen film. That's what Wikipedia says. Directed by Katherine Hardwick, written by Hardwick and Nikki Reed. It's loosely based on Reads of Life at ages 13 to 14. The film's plot follows Tracy, a middle school student in Los Angeles who begins dabbling in substance abuse, sex, and crime after becoming friends with the school's popular girl, Evie. Bree Esrig is an American actress, writer, host, internet personality, and only fans model. She is very funny. How are you doing? What's going on in your world? How are you feeling? What are you paying attention to? What are you watching? What are you thinking about? What are you reading? I want to know all about it. Thanks everyone who said kind and lovely things about the Kiki's Delivery Service episode. It sounds like it was a joy for many of you. I'm really glad. A lot of people are like, thank God, this is what I need this week, some Kiki. And I'm really glad to hear that. I had a wonderful time with Livia putting that episode together and I'm glad that y'all enjoyed it. These here are good. It's becoming spring in Los Angeles. That means it's basically summer for any other place. I am enjoying all of that. I haven't said it in a minute. I don't know. I can't remember what I say week to week. So maybe I did say it recently. But remember, it is a weird and wacky time all the time these days. So the ways that we stave off dread in the face of all of that is we show up. We find community that we can tap into, be a part of, contribute to, engage in, engage with. We push back against the bad things. We push ourselves to show up in ways that we are happy and satisfied with. We're at the end of the week. We can go, you know what? I did it. I did a good job. I did a good job. I showed up. I don't give in to despair because that's what they want. And we're not going to give it to them. That's what we're doing out here. However you end up showing up, whatever you are reading right now, whatever you're doing, whatever you're watching, however you're engaging, whatever, whatever, whatever, do not forget that you, my friend, are good. You are good at feelings podcasts about movies as made possible with and by your support. Thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon and Apple Podcast subscriptions. This month, our bonus episode is weird, the Al Jankovic story, because we're going to cover UHF this month in the main feed, both with Josely Paulett. We had a remarkable time talking about each of these movies and I can't wait to share them with you. So thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon and Apple Podcast subscriptions. We can't make this show without you and we appreciate your, you're keeping this thing afloat helping us do the thing. Really, really appreciate you. Help support our friends in Gaza and in Palestine more broadly. Palestine Children's Relief Fund is a great place to start doing that. If you're not already, check out the link in the show notes. There are all sorts of campaigns, all sorts of ways that you can help contribute. But if you're not doing, not doing anything right now and you are in the position to do so, that is a great place to start. All right, let's do it. Let's get into it. Let's talk about 13, shall we? Hello, Britt. Hi. Welcome to You Are Good at Feelings Podcast about movies. I'm so excited we're going to talk about 13 today. That's the movie I've ever made. Ugh, the best. Before we get there though, can you just tell me how people know you? Some people probably know me from YouTube, from being a sketch comedy creator from way back in the day. And then maybe hosting on a show called SourceFed. Yeah, and then I kind of pivoted into the adult industry. So now I do only fans and still creating content. Never really stopped. You're very funny. Thank you. Every time you go like, I like, when I'm flipping through stuff, I like rarely stop just because it's a person, but every time I watch you as I know, I'm like, I know I'm going to laugh. Thank you so much. That means a lot to me. Yeah, it's really true. I share your shit a lot with people. It's really hard to forage my daily story memes. It's hard to do daily stories. It is. It's hard. I never take a day off. My God, it's so admirable. I mean to make a video a week. And if I do, I'm like, thank God I rose to the occasion. Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm excited to talk about this with you. Me too. So tell me about your history with 13. So I grew up in a really sheltered household. I was not allowed to watch R rated anything. And I would have to go to my next neighbor's house to watch anything that I wanted to watch because her parents didn't care at all. And my parents were like, I need to read like the reading. I need to see what the movie's about. I want to read reviews about it. So I had heard about 13 and I was like, I need to see this. And so I went to Courtney's house and we watched it and I was 12 when it came out. I think it was 2002. And I was like, if this is what 13 is going to be like, I'm in for a ride. This is crazy. It's like the craziest thing I've ever seen. And I remember after I finished watching it, I was like, I want to make movies now. For sure. This is like my path because I can't believe somebody could make something this amazing. Yeah. I'm shocked that this was Catherine Hardwick's first movie. I mean, this is like a huge lift. And it's, it's, there's so many things that we'll talk about about how it came together in the development. But I wonder how much the prophecy was fulfilled for you. How was 13 for you after seeing this movie? Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say the movie heavily influenced me personally outside of like, wow, I can't believe people get to make movies and that looks so fun. And then it like sort of started like in, in indie movie craze for me. I was just like, oh my God, people can make movies with their friends and they could just and just a camera and like go do stuff. But I think like being a 13 year old for me because I was so sheltered, I really had this heavy impulse to just rebel against my parents. And anytime they were like, you know, don't do that. I was like, well, I think I should. I really think I should though. Like it would be so fun. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Like I did get kicked out of summer camp for piercing kids ears. That is true. Do you remember that phone call? Like, do you remember how that transpired? I set a building on fire when I was 12. I was a real spicy kid. So I wonder. Movie kids? No, I really fantastic question. But I mean, like what I saw in kids is what I saw in my own childhood, which was like feral, unmonitored children. I was kind of the opposite in having like, you know, parents who wouldn't let me do things. I had parents who not unlike the mom as portrayed by Holly Hunter in this movie, well intended clueless. Yeah. Well intended clueless under supported. And so I was just like, I can do whatever I want. That was my dream. But now back as an adult, I'm like, I guess I'm glad I had the, I don't know if I did choose between like unmonitored or sheltered. I would love for it to be somewhere in the middle. But I would love to, if ever there is a situation where I am responsible for raising children, I would love to strike a middle ground between those two things. But do you remember what the trouble was like for the camp piercings? Also very parent trap coded. Very parent trap coded. Maybe that was the influence of that. So I remember my, I got back from camp and my parents were like, you have a bunch of piercings in your ear. What happened? And I was like, my camp counselor gave me this one and I gave them to everybody. And so they were like, well, the camp called us and said that you can't come back next year. Oh my gosh. And then I found out this was like several years later, the camp never kicked me out. My parents were so pissed that I did that that they said the camp kicked me out. Oh my gosh. The camp didn't even care. It was my parents. That's wild. Why didn't they own it? Because they were like, they didn't want to take the fall for being stripped all the time. That's yeah. Because they were. That's really good. They were just such buzz kills. Yeah. I appreciate their approach there. It is a little twisted and, you know, but it got the job done apparently. Well, that summer camp was wild. It was like a summer camp for Nepo babies up in Lake Arrowhead. And it was like people's kids were there, like Hugh Hefner's sons and as well as his kids. And like, we all got mono. We were all just like throwing piss filled water balloons at each other. I know those camps well and I have like, I'd say like 10% of my friends went to a camp like that and always as debauchers is like my childhood that I just gave a glimmer of was because I was unmonitored. Sometimes I'm like, you guys had, we're operating on another level. Like 14 year olds going to camps like that were operating at another level. Yeah. But we didn't burn anything down. How did that happen? Like what did you do? There was an abandoned building that someone had just bought and has since in the past 30 years renovated it. But friends of mine and I in a very like stand by me or Goonies, you know, coded childhood were like, we're going to turn this into our clubhouse. And it was an old lumber yard and it was filled with accelerant chemicals. And while they were out doing something, I was filling a little cap of one of the bottles with accelerant and like setting it on fire just to see the colors. I was such a little pirate like such a little transfixed pyro and I was a kid and I heard them coming and knew that this would be frowned upon. And so I like, like got up quickly, knocked the bottle of accelerant onto the open flame. It exploded on me. So I was on fire. I'm fine, by the way. And then the fire shot into the bottle of accelerant, which shot into a stacked bottles of accelerant. Oh, it wasn't just a fire. It was an explosion. No, it was a fucking explosion. You probably didn't even have like the whereabouts of filming. Like you were just like, there was nothing to film it with. You had a clunky VHS, you know, there was like nothing you could do. Yeah. It was really remarkable, really remarkable. What happened? So the building didn't burn to the ground, but it hollowed out. We rode away on bikes and one of my neighbors who was 18, by the way. And this is like just like small town, like, you know, you had there's so few people around you just hang out with all the people who around. This is like another problem. And my neighbor who was 18 had stopped or maybe he was 17. And that's why he didn't get into big trouble. But he stopped at a store along the way and he's like, Hey, there's a fire at the building next door. And the fire department came. And I remember he was my next door neighbor. And so I remember I was eating dinner with my father and I looked outside and saw the cops at his house. And I remember like, I remember the exact size inconsistency and shape of the tomato that was in my mouth because I couldn't move my mouth. Like I was just like, and then I was like, maybe they won't come just in my head. I was like, maybe they're not going to come here. And then of course, two hours later, they came to my house and they were like, we'll see what happens. And we'll see what happens with charges being pressed and then sort of any of that. But they really kind of dropped that it was possible, if not likely that I would be removed from the house by child services. And that was kind of the last that I engaged. Wow. So you didn't even get that much trouble. No, I my father ground me the only time I was ever ground. And then I think he just saw it weighing on. I think he saw the enormity of the situation weighing on me. Yeah. And he's like, you're good. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, you're good. Like, I know you are never going to do this again. And true. But I absolutely got into a number of other circumstances. See, this is why I'm never having kids. You're teenagers. Like, I am not dealing with that ever. No, no. I'm good. Well, and what I can't wait to talk about, because when I asked our audience what their experience with this movie was. Yeah. And for many, it was either like, this was the thing that I watched that was so unlike my life. And it was scary for me. Or this is the thing that I watching it was so like my life and so like my friends lives that I was very drawn to it. And in retrospect, it really bums me out. And this was the life, this exact life as portrayed in this movie was my cousin who I loved and admired in a big way. And was like a year older than me. And I just wanted to be and would act extraordinarily like I learned my pyro tendencies from that cousin. And she was extremely cool, really terrifying, extremely confident, but also in retrospect, maybe like deeply, deeply, deeply insecure. And just like a fucking menace. And anytime we hung out together, like I too was a menace. Like you couldn't be in the gravity of that person without being a menace. Yeah. So yeah, I love these girls in this movie. I love them. Me too. I don't see myself in either of them. I guess I'm like more of a Tracy, the Evan Rachel one character in a way where it's like I'm, it didn't end up that way permanently. I could get into bad shit. But I was also the bad influence. Okay, great. So in one way I was like leaving the Nicole or the Nikki Reed character, but I don't know. Like I'm somewhere in the middle where it's just like, yeah, I can have fun, but I'm never going to take it too far. And I didn't luckily, luckily I could have. Yeah. I just for some reason. Yeah. What do you think stopped you? I mean, this girl somehow hits rock bottom before seventh grade is over. So that's nice for her. And unfortunately her mom's, I was so nervous that the shoe is going to drop on her mom sobriety and Jeremy sister sobriety. Although when he does come back, he looks a little uncocaine, but I was worried that that shoe is going to drop. But I'm so happy that it'll be she has like some active figure in sobriety. I know. I think so a couple of things stopped me. One, when I was in 10th grade, I started shoplifting. Oh, sure. Yeah, the best. And I got caught. And I got in trouble. No. And I had to work at the fucking store that I shopped at for a summer for free. Oh my God. So I just got a job at like Carbelt Ice Cream and I was like, yes, I'm going to be making money this summer. And then the store busted me like a clothing store. And they're like, you're going to be working here all summer and you're not getting paid. So I had to spend the summer between 10th and 11th grade. My God. Working at the clothing store. And every time I went in, they were like, here comes the little criminal. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, it seems like it seemed like it worked. It rained me out. I was like, yeah, after that, I was like, I'm good. When I ended up going to boarding school, I did new drugs. Of course. I did dabble with the drugs, but in a controlled fun way, not in like a help kind of way. Totally. More like, oh my God, these cool seniors are inviting me to smoke weed with them. Yeah. Once. Such as the boarding school way. Yeah. And I did drop out of the boarding school. I was going to say, you're like, you didn't get on the Piltrain. No, I never got on the Piltrain. And it's like acid was like the one drug that they don't have a drug test for. So that was why I did it. Cause it was like, I can't get in trouble for doing acid. They'll never be able to prove that I did it. Unless they give me a spinal cap. And it's so for like acid is acid was like the one drug that I found when I was a kid. Terrifying. Like it was like anything that was like that much of a commitment for someone who was so unregulated with their ADHD. I was like, I don't know if I could show up for this, but you know, it was also a God Son for people who are getting drug tested. And I say it was like one of the best days of my life. Like in high school was like 12 hours of just pure bliss. I had the best time ever. And I didn't end up taking acid until I was like 23 after that. Yeah. It was like a one time thing. And it was just incredible. It changed my life. I love that for you. I love that for you. I later would develop a heavy regimen of hallucinogens. But yeah, as a kid, I was like, I don't know, this is above my pay grade, but I'm so glad. I'm so glad that it works for you. That's expensive. I had no money as a teenager. It's like someone was offering it to me. I would do it, but I wasn't going out of my way to spend my own money on drugs. So let's get into like what this movie is because I think the reason I didn't see it is by the time it came out, I was 19. And so it as a phenomenon had passed me. I think it was very conf, unless you experienced it as you did being like a young kid who came into this movie, even in the reviews I read, people are like, this movie is confusingly marketed and like no one knows who it's for really. And so and not bad. All the reviews are like good, but they're like Roger Ebert. It's like, who's this movie for? It confusingly looks like it might be for 13 year olds. It's actually not. Yeah. I mean, that's when my friend's mom let us rent it for a while. Probably because it looks on the cover. Like it makes sense that it would be for 13 year olds. And I think as a result, like I extra wasn't engaging in movies that were purportedly about 13 year old girls at that time. So I missed it. But when I did, when I did start to hear about it, it was from people who had experiences with the movie like you. And often they talked about it almost like I was so surprised by how delighted I was by this movie because like some people have traumatic associations with this movie. I think like they see in the movie their own sort of like either like cutting I saw and I was like, and I resonated with that as a young person. Some elements of over and implied eating disorder. There's just like a lot of sexual menace. Like there's like a lot of stuff in it. I have some questions about this movie's racial politics we can talk about later, but all of the menace comes from black people, which we, I'm sure got talked about somewhere. I didn't think about that. You're right. Yeah. It's like there is a, there is a like, but it's not surprising like this girl's dad in, do you have any background in Los Angeles? I can't remember. Yeah, I grew up there. That's why it was so exciting for me to see it. I was like, this could be my life. I assume that because the dad is in works at NASA that they're like in or around Glendale, right? And they're going into Melrose. And so there is still this like suburban isolation, even though it's like right in Los Angeles. And then you go into like some elements of the city and like you see the city, they go to like Hollywood at some point at night. And these things were like, even now that I walk around it and I'm like, this is like vaguely menacing in some ways and then to think about like unchained kids going into it. I forgot how I got there by way of aside from the racial politics, but I assume that like this is every time I heard about this from people, it sounded like more menacing than I actually found the movie to be. And I was very surprised by how sweet it is. Yeah. I mean, it has a happy ending, whether you feel that way or not. I mean, she escapes it. Yes. And she and her mom meant they're a relationship, it seems like, which is great. Yeah. I love it. But it always seemed like a cautionary tale to me. They've like just don't walk down. Totally. Like none of this is presented like, you know, a Bredeastern Ellis where there's like agnosticism or like a lack of morality intentionally sort of implied upon it. Like this movie is like, this is a scary place for these people to be the whole time. Yeah. And I think a lot of the, I wouldn't say glamorizing is the right way to put it because I think certain aspects of it are kind of glamorized in some arts. Like I'd say the self harm stuff is not glamorized at all. But like giving a random guy head for a piercing, you know what I mean? Like there's some stuff where it's like, we're young, we're having fun. And then it's like, oh, this is dark and fucked up. So it's like, it really also lays between the two things. Totally. Yeah. And I would say like the chocolate thing was glamorized for sure. Oh God. Absolutely. That was like, I see you. I see you. And that is my future. I remember telling what I had stolen by like age 16. Like I was like, I wonder just like an approximate and put it all down and I was like, it's like several thousand dollars worth of stuff. Like when I was like, I was like prolific. Kind of like a rite of passage for white, suburban, like, isn't it? Like, what is that? I don't I do not know. It is, it is common. It's extremely common. Yeah. So OK, so I'm going to walk through the plot as much as possible. OK. And please feel free to speak up about any of these plot elements. We open. I love the opening. God, I love this movie. I was really like, it's so good. It's so good. We open it and we'll be like in the same way that like if this was a comedy, this thing would be happening to this character and then it would freeze frame and it would be like, I bet you're wondering how I got here and then we go back. But in this, it's shot like documentary cinema, cinema verite, where our lead character, Tracy, is sitting in a bed talking about how her face is numb and asking to get hit as hard as her friend can hit her. Yeah. And that happens for quite a while. Yeah. Hit me. I can't feel anything. Hit me. Oh, it's so. Oh, I loved it. Oh, and you're like, oh, we are in for something. Yeah. And then we cut back to sort of what got us to this place. And we'll return to this scene, probably like in the third act. So we walk through how we got here. And so we have Tracy, who has started middle school. It just like vaguely not vaguely Los Angeles. I'm sure someone knows where this actually takes place. But is it in Venice? Because they do spend time down in Venice. Because I know I've watched. I remember when it came out, I watched the director commentary. And I watched they had a commentary track with the two actresses. And they were talking all behind the scenes of it. And I think they shot a lot of it in Venice, but I don't know if it's supposed to take place there. That makes sense, because I do know that they I mean, obviously they shot the tattoo piece in Venice. And, you know, Catherine Hurdwick, her next movie is Lords of Dogtime, which takes place in Venice as well. And is also another like coming up in Los Angeles was difficult for many people. I also like asking your parents to go to Melrose from Venice after school. The other day, I decided not to go to a thing because I looked at its address and realized that it was in Venice. And you're like, no, mom, just drop me off. Hello. No. Where am I supposed to go? It's going to take me two hours to get anywhere. Girl, I have a whole ass life like I can't do that. Her mom, who's played by Holly Hunter, is recovering alcoholic. Ebert, in his review, referred to her as clueless yet caring, which I really kind of found interesting about this role where it's like a mom who like clearly cares and is in distress about the situation. And perhaps part of her own life helped foster the creation of this situation on the red resentments that exist within the situation, not to mention like her absolute ship for brains, abandoned father, who has abandoned her entirely for his career, who is also plays an asshole dad in Friday Night Lights. You know, her mom really cares, but does not know what to do when she is suddenly confronted with like what feels like the overnight transformation of her daughter. Because that's the thing. She already has parentified her daughter, Tracy, to be the she's she already knows that she's a good kid. She gets good grades to pick up the slack while she's working. Meanwhile, the son can go off and do whatever the fuck doesn't even matter. But Tracy is a good girl and she will have dinner ready when I need her to have it. So it's just like I never have to worry about her. She almost put her in that category right off the bat. Yeah. So I do I do see that review making sense because she is clueless because she never had to worry about her before. So why what happens all of a sudden where she suddenly has to start paying attention? Right. It's suddenly like terrifying. And we get the beginning. I mean, I really loved the opening of the movie because a running you know, a running theme is like Melanie is busy. Melanie also can't say no to anything if it looks like it's doing some good in somebody else's life. It's very admirable. She's like not there's like not a negative thing about Melanie outside of just not necessarily knowing what to do. But it is an adept to her own kids. Yes, for sure. Never around because she's always helping everybody else and she's not being quite as present in her own children's lives. And she's in like her crazy friends, children's lives. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I've and I have been in places and I often will talk with people who are going through in one way or another where, you know, it becomes very easy to give of yourself as a means of avoiding yourself. And I really see that in Melanie. Yeah, she's a really great character. Yeah, she's a really spectacular character. And she's working as a hairdresser in the opening scene of the movie where we see not in the opening scene where we see Tracy getting slapped, but in the opening scenes where we start to see where she comes from. She tries to read her mother a poem that she has written for class. And it's interrupted immediately, which again, sort of like shows us where things are for her. And then she finally reads the poem and her mother says, like, it's really heavy. It kind of scares me a little bit. And like this is kind of the beginning of her telling what is going on underneath. Do you remember, like, what she actually says in the poem? Because it's like it's like she's really going through it from the get go, even though she's not actually sort of doing any of the harmful stuff. That's a good question. I don't remember the exact poem, but I remember being that agent, writing that type of poetry where I'm like, I'm trying to say something and no one can understand me. It was sort of the same like vibe of like, I don't know if it was like a self harm or like a cry for help about the self harm specifically. Right. But we already know what we'll learn later that she has been self harming for a while. Yeah. So I think it's kind of that. That's like the first cry for help and it's ignored. Yeah, the poem is he was crippled, but only his body was cracked. It is not simple, nor is it an easy matter to explain. Let's just leave it at that, she says, and she closes the Holy Book of Lies. She covers her eyes, denying to herself what she thought happened. Yeah, I don't necessarily know what's going on outside of like I would have written that when I was 12. Yeah, but it is giving like my mom is not paying attention to me. Totally. Well, and her mom does like her mom is in the program. Her mom is probably reading the Bible a little bit. Her mom is definitely reading the little book, which she refers to. Sort of in the movie at some point. They say it works when you work it. Yeah, exactly. It does sound like a pretty pointed like her. I think her mom recognizes herself in it immediately and is like, I don't know about this. Yeah. And this poem is later referred to when things go off the rails for her by a teacher who's like you started the year by writing one of the best poems I've read. And now you're failing everything. But we also find that her mother has a relationship with Brady, who's played by Jeremy Sisto in his prime, like in Jeremy Sisto's absolute prime. And when you when Sisto shows up, you're like, this guy is probably a creep, but somehow he isn't. Yeah, he does other terrible things, but like you automatically assume this guy is going to do some fucked up shit. And thank God he doesn't. For sure. I was like, there's no way we're getting Jeremy Sisto in his prime and he's he's going to be normal. Doing that where he's holding the chicken and like moving. His chickens are cool. That is the funniest thing. I still think about it like it haunts me. He's so funny. He's really good. That's the thing. It's like these characters are so well written and the acting is so good. Also, he's got to be like 10 to 15 years her junior Holly Hunter's junior. Oh, interesting. I didn't even think about that, which I think is great job, Holly Hunter and great job, Jeremy Sisto. Like you guys really got each other. They really disappeared. I mean, the entire cast disappeared. They are just those characters to me in that movie. I agree entirely. The only standalone terrible performance is the Vanessa Hudgens character, who is like her sweet innocent friend in the beginning, Noelle. And then she disappears. Good point. Yeah, they really are really underutilized, maybe on purpose, Vanessa Hudgens, who my introduction to Vanessa Hudgens, because I missed all of high school musical because of my age, was Spring Breakers. So good at it. Oh, yeah. I was like, who is this? I love this person. And then I was like, oh, nothing else they ever did was like this. Cool. Yeah. I mean, high school musical, I think it is worth revisiting for you. I think you'll love it because it's just so silly. And everyone does the best they can. Hopefully you'll come back for high school musical because I do need to I do need to experience this in some way. So we can see if it is a hot shine, which she does not do in this movie. No, there's also a guy who I looked up who we meet later in Hollywood, who has voodoo juice, I think is what he refers to in his drink. And I looked him up just because I was like, I kind of recognize this guy. He and I share the same birthday in his credit in the movie is ganky guy. He's attached to the piercing guy. No, he's the guy when like she leaves the movies to go. They both leave the movies and he's like, do you want me to help you look for your friend? Right. And he's walking around like drinking some noxious juice that makes her immediately sick. Not an ideal guy. Yeah. So first day of school, Tracy goes, I love a device where the most popular girl in school's name is used in full the entire time. Like the most popular girl in school's name is Evie Zamora, who everyone refers to as Evie Zamora for at least the first third of the movie. And it is the cundiest name of all of her. It's perfect. And the shots where they're like, that's her. And it's like freeze frame on her face, freeze frame on her belly button piercing, freeze frame on her jeans. And I'm just like, oh, gagged. Gagged. Yeah. Absolutely. And she, you know, Tracy is not being noticed at home. She's being ignored at home. How can I be acknowledged at school? And at some point, Tracy's made fun of for what she's wearing. She's either upset about it or says something about it to her mother. Her mother takes her shopping. She comes back to school looking cooler. And she is recognized by Evie for wearing good clothes, I guess. And then Evie is like, and then this is this is the important thing. And remember going in this movie when I looked at that looked at the date. 2003, Friendster premieres in 2003. So social media does not exist in this time. If you want a phone number, it is written on a notepad in your pocket. That is how Tracy gets what she thinks is Evie's number and an invite to go shopping on Melrose. And what does she experience when she tries to call Evie? I think it's just a fake number. Yeah. And then she's like, oh, I already know where this bitch shops. Let's go to Melrose. I'm just going to meet her. Which I love that Tracy takes the initiative to just do it instead of. I'm just going. Yeah. She's like, I'm just going to go home and then start stealing immediately. I'm just like, you're just really cranked into the world. Like there's like no time to stop and think everything just happens so quickly in this movie, the escalation. It's also the beginning. It's the first thing we know about Evie is she only lies. Yeah. With the with the phone number, like the everything about her is not true. And there are some parts in the movie where I get like nervous about if you take the movie only at its text, like there's a part where they go to the adult guys' house down the street and they are, you know, through Evie's lead, they're like coming on to him. And like he tapedly tries to stop it and then does not stop it. And it feels like it's like kind of lowly decor. Yeah. But the entire framework of the movie is like, why are these girls like this? And like you are shown all of the reasons in ways that they are like this. And like you're even shown it's like Evie feels a little villainous in some of the ways that Evie feels villainous, but she's 13. Like all of the adults around her are in one way or another enabling this, including her mom, who we're going to get to meet later. Well, her mom is the biggest wire of them all. So it's like, of course, she's going around lying. That's exactly where she got it from. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, she goes in and confronts the girl or doesn't confront the girl. She meets the girls on Melrose, realizes that they're shoplifting, goes outside and has a chance encounter with a woman sort of having some situation on her cell phone, steals the woman's wallet, which is full of cash and introduces herself to the girls again with a stolen wallet full of cash. And they go on a shopping spree. Yeah, that was her initiation that she decided to bring upon herself. No one asked her to do it. She was just like, this is he sees them doing it. So she's like, I think, hey, one up. Here we go. Yeah, you're stealing panties from a store. I have I have a fistful of cash, which matters fact, I must say. Absolutely. It is really impressive. The technique, too. She's just like looking out at the, you know, whatever the horizon in her hand just creeps into this woman's purse. It's a good technique, too. I would never have the balls to do that. And it really just shows what happens when we are operating distracted. So OK, so she's in now because, again, to your point, like she has self initiated herself into the game. Yeah. And she, you know, this is the this is the the beginning of the movie. Like this is like maybe sort of I have trouble with the way that this movie unfolds, because again, it does feel documentary in a lot of ways, even though it's not I have like trouble articulating where we are in an act structure. I don't even know if the movie necessarily has an act structure outside of the fact that it's like the first and second act mashed together of an immediate rise in a sort of like abrupt fall. And then the third act is just like sitting in the fall for a while. So I think the more I think about this movie, it's like obviously a cry for help. Everything she does is a cry for help. But I think it's like your mom is so blind to what is going on. And she's like and her brother, like she can't even get her brother to notice her. But even get her brother. And I think she's so desperate for anyone in her family. And I think she chooses Eve specifically because she wants her brother to notice her. And I don't think it's that obvious upon first watch. But like she wants somebody from her own family. And I think Eve is the way to get her brother to notice. Right. Because I also noticed that where her brother is very attentive to her until they go to school. Yeah. And like it is clear that they have very recently had a close relationship. And when he returns to school, her brother's number one interest is girls. And he and his friend groups, number one interest. So that's all they talk about. And it's through it's like not just interest. It's like straight up objectification. We'll see this come full circle when later she is in Hollywood and she's approached by two boys and one of them says something like dirty, like gross and objectifying to her. And it turns out to be her brother's friend and she's with her brother. And her brother kind of realizes that he's like, I was also objectifying that girl. And like that was my sister. Yeah. Which, you know, there's a lot to unpack. They may not have a proper structure, but it all everything always comes full circle in this movie. Nothing is like undone. Like everything is supposed to be has like a loose end gets tied up in some way. I agree. I never felt like it's like great. And this is what it was celebrated for a lot when it came out. It's like it's really exceptional filmmaking. And there aren't a lot of movies that I can think of like it. And even though it doesn't necessarily have a structure to your point, like these things all are in conversation with each other. They never feel like it's like a loose strand. And yeah, I agree. I mean, I do think that, you know, even when with regard to how their childhood has been and how scattered their mom has been, we don't know like how new to soriety her mom is, by the way, with regard to the way that she talks about it. So this could be a very recent issue. Like she's she has a sponsor, but like the way she talks about group participation and I want to be clear, like, you know, groups and anonymous groups, etc. is not obviously the only way to maintain sobriety, etc. But that is the way that she is maintaining sobriety. And it seems like she still has kind of a tenuous relationship with her commitment to that process. And that and that's largely dictated by like how fucking crazy and overwhelmed her life is because she's doing a lot of lifting because dad is fucking gone. So yeah, I think that she is trying. I mean, I think that like the person who was there for her in a lot of ways was her brother. Her brother is now solely interested in girls and interested in the most popular girl. That this is where we learn Evee's name initially. And so obviously the incentive for Tracy or not obviously, but the incentive for Tracy's is like, well, if I could be friends with the most popular girl, like people would notice me. That's the thing, because it's like if you really think about the movie, like would she even have chosen these specific girls? Was she even in their radar? I don't even think they're in the same class. I know she's like in the class with one of the other popular girls, maybe not Evee, but the blonde girl who at the end is like, I'm a mermaid. They're in class together. I love that like that kind of girl who's like a bruiser and like a little dumb is like one of my favorite people from high school. She reminds me, do you watch Euphoria? No, I don't. There's a character on Euphoria named Beebe and people call her vape girl. Because she all she does is she just hangs out with the popular kids and vapes and says the funniest one liners. But she is like she's like Cookie Monster, Pajama pants girl. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, classic. That's her. Like they took the Harmony Corrine route and cast like an actual Cookie Monster, Pajama pants girl. Like that's who she is at our core. That's an actor. And so that it's a mermaid girl is giving that 100 percent. I really love her. She was like, I think maybe the most perfectly cast person in the entire movie because I was like, I know that girl so well. She's so iconic. Yeah, absolutely. Our source and I said kind of dumb and I don't mean it with regard to the person who I'm about to reference, but the girl who reminded me of the most of that in my school and I've mentioned her before on the show, because this is like an all time or quote in my life was Mandy Payne and her sister was Tisha Payne. And I was in the car with them once and Mandy accused Tisha of stealing her big lighter of baking her, as we would say. And Tisha's like, no, I did it. And she's like, yes, you did. And they go back and forth on that. And then she finally goes, Tisha, you can suck a fart out of my ass. And I was like, I love these girls so much. I love everything about them. Yeah, the Donnie Darko Stibbling Conversation where you can suck a fuck. You can suck a fuck. Yeah, I was like, I am just standing in admiration. So they now they're joined at the hip. It's interesting because this movie was written by Katherine Hardwick and Nikki Reed and Nikki Reed is who plays Evie. I can't find a very interesting fact about cast members from Twilight, including Nikki Reed and the other actress's name is Sarah and this. No birthday listing on their Wikipedia on their Wikipedia entries. I wonder if they pay for that service. Allegedly, Nikki Reed was the Tracy in her real life dynamic. But was she how old was she when they wrote this movie? Was she they wrote it when she was 12 and they shot it when she was 13. Oh, yeah. It was like a really quick. They wrote it in a couple of days. And then they immediately went into pre-production. And then it came out like 14. I think Evan Rachel would was 14 or 15 when they shut. Yeah, so I mean, it really is in a lot of ways kids coded, but from a different angle, obviously. Yeah. What do you think is going on with her character? Because we, you know, she has this guardian. I can't it's not her real mom, she keeps saying we. But also she's right. I was going to say she's never said anything that it's she's she's an extremely unreliable narrator of her life. There is that element of close girl friendship that I recall at the time. And I know that I've heard sort of a lot of friends or partners or whoever talk about in retrospect in their preteens to teens where there was like a sapphic element to their relationship, even if they weren't overtly queer. Like that there is like a queerness to sort of the closeness of that time and a confusing sort of piece about that. And the actresses came out later and said that they were the first loves of each other's lives. I bet like they were so close the entire movie. And then they're out in the movie. They're all of these like longing glances. There's one point where we don't know necessarily if it's like a dream that Tracy's had or if it's a thing that actually happened where she imagines or in real life in the within the movie, Evie is spooning her and tells her that she loves her and then she essentially wakes up and she's not there anymore. What do you think is happening inside of Evie? That's a good question. And I think it's so interesting that they had Nikki Reed play Evie instead of Tracy. That will always trip me out. And I think it's maybe because she already had like the tongue piercings and the belly button running and all that. Maybe I think she was already into deep. And she was like, I know this world better than anybody. But I think Evie was in love with Tracy. Yeah. It rings to me like Evie is in love with Tracy. And Tracy just wants to be Evie. I don't think Tracy is in love with Evie as Evie is with Tracy. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think like I do think that Evie wants this family. Like I think that like I don't necessarily love all of the imagery they use for her mom's self obsession. But like it is not uncommon when you meet a lot of people in the city, which I love so much. I never have a bad thing to say about the city. But you do meet a lot of people who because of like what the city trades on, there is like some level of like others blind self obsession. But her mom is like very image obsessed. Like she's she's a person who has cosmetic surgery, which like, you know, I think like we were having much less nuanced conversations about, let's say, 23 years ago than maybe we're saying now. But like her mom is like extremely self obsessed, self interested. And she recognizes herself too. She's like she chooses to get these cosmetic procedures and then cries about it. They cut off my ears. I'm botched and botched. It's like, you're fine, girl. That's a facelift. You got a facelift. Yeah. Yeah. You need to let that heal properly. OK. And I think like her mom like was was probably like, I think based on when they go into the kitchen the first time and Tracy sees like promo photos of her, I don't think her mom's important, but I think her mom is in like Cinemax movies. And that's the thing. It's like, of course, it's her mom. Her mom is so vain and self obsessed that she's like, you're not my daughter because I am young. I am young and beautiful. I'm too young to have a child. Sure. So very obviously her daughter. And so for her to say, Brooke is my guardian. And so that's so sad. Totally. Sad. She just wants like a normal family, but I think she does fall in love with Tracy. Yeah. No, absolutely. I think the same thing. And it's it's it's fascinating. So like the so basically like the whole middle of the movie is them in the misadventures that occur when the wheels start coming off, including getting a piercing that, again, as you said, the heavy implication is paid for by oral sex with a teenager. Not ideal. Weird. I don't know necessarily an accurate portrayal of what is on and off board on Venice Beach, but it's a weird place, you know, so. Trust me, I tried. I'm sure it's happened. And for that, not for me. Not for me. This is where I want to say this is the beginning of every scary person who does a bad thing in this movie, with the exception of like the one white guy who has a pinball machine in his house are all people of color. I got to be noticed. Thank you for bringing that up. You're right. Yeah, I get it. Get a weird, skeezy tattoo from a guy. You know, that whole element. There's not necessarily anything like overtly menacing about the guys that they start seeing, but it is kind of like they go out of their sort of like comfort zone in place and they're spending time like with black people who are listening to hip hop and like that's where like the drugs are ultimately happening. And then like later, there's like the weird confrontation with like a young black dyke who comes in to beat up you. I know. Although the next your neighbor who's like kind of dabbling in like pedophilia, he is white. Who is that? Who? Which one is that? That he's like, he's like a big actor now, too. What is that? The one with the pinball machine? Is that the guy? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Total. No, he that's what I was. I did. I did say I like the one exception is that guy who he's like, I'll let teenage girls into my we had this guy who lived next door to me when I was a kid. I'll let teenage girls like into my house and then like whatever happens, like that's, you know, that guy eventually I think got arrested in my my hometown. Speaking of my hometown, the actress Sarah Clark, who is in Twilight also, who is like kind of Holly Hunter's friend throughout the movie, maybe sister, maybe cousin, can't quite tell. She lives in my hometown of Kurdish man, which is very funny. Nice. Yeah. Hell yeah. The Captain's Harwick multiverse. I love that she just casts the same people in everything. Me too. She's like, I know how to work with these people. That is like my dream is like wanting to be filmmakers, just making cool shit with my friends. That is like, I love that. I do too. I love people who have like a company, you know, like a theater company. Yeah. So throughout this, they're just getting into all of the trouble that they're getting into. They are drinking, they're doing drugs, they're selling drugs. They are shoplifting throughout. Like this stuff will be recognized. This stuff is recognizable to me and to my own my own childhood. There's like disordered eating. There's self harm. Fresh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Like there's all of these things are like things that like, you know, kids who are feeling out of control in one way or another are like often seeking some sort of control from. But the sad cycle is usually just like sends them further out of control. Yeah. All while this is happening, the relationship with Brady. Again, I'm surprised that things are going well in the ways that they're going. Like he in the past has been distracting. We get a glimpse through a flashback of I guess, what do we think happened? Why was Brady gone and at a halfway house for some period of time? It's like a question. I mean, he relapsed. Yeah. He relapses in the flashback. Right. Well, yeah. Yeah. No, totally. We he's he's relapsed and it seems like the relapse was bad. Like it seems like it wasn't just like he did drugs. Like he might have had some sort of psychotic episode and he had it at the house, which again, these are all things that are extremely they're understandable from a human level, but are terrifying and disorienting when they happen around young people. Mom is realizing that things are truly out of control, tries to get dad to come and do something anything. He comes and just shows his hand at being extremely aloof and invested in his own self and his career. Not surprising. These are this is like a real textbook. What is that classic book? Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. Like this is like Children of Emotionally Immature Parents of the movie. And things are getting worse. The brother finally does start to notice because he sees her out. He's realized kind of these behaviors. And throughout the movie, there is an angling in which Tracy is trying to get Evie to come and live with them permanently, even though she is essentially already living with them permanently. She's delivering a number of lies to the Holly Hunter character, saying that she's getting abused by her mother's partners. The details of the abuse are getting sort of even more severe throughout the movie. It's pitched. Can she come and live with us all at the same time that it's acknowledged that she may be the reason why things are getting so kind of crazy? And finally, Holly Hunter brings Evie home to go check in on her mother, who it's been reported that like she's just kind of missing and then finds out that she is actually very home and what she is recovering from is cosmetic surgery. Yeah, these are both really traumatic things to be a teenager around, like both having Tracy is like having to deal with mom's boyfriend, who's an addict. And then Evie having to deal with her mom's face cut open all the time. Like that's those are both like really intense things for children to have to be around. So my father, the twist on the being unmonitored is my father was a generation older and was in was in bad health, the starting when I was young. And so when I was 16, I was the caretaker for him when he had half a lung removed. Like that's like being around like medical stuff and all that is like so disorienting for a kid. And again, the reports where I was like initially nervous by the text of the movie, but then like the sort of the subtext for me is what makes it work is I'm like, well, we have this girl who it looks like she's like making up accusations, right? Which is like not sort of ideal. And she's making up accusations about like what she's experiencing as abuse at her house. A, she's 13. B, I think like what she's trying to do is describe the feelings that she has about being essentially like neglected by someone who's extremely self involved. And no one's going to take you seriously at 13, especially 25 years ago. If you're like, I feel bad because I'm being neglected. Like people are going to be like, well, is your mom there? Yeah, cool. OK, you're good. Like suck it up, idiot. But she's like, let me say things that like articulate like the pain that I'm feeling. But like, I know I won't be listened to if I say what's really going on because people don't give a shit. And that's a thing. It's like they both deal with their pain inwardly and outwardly, like Tracy self harms and Evie outwardly harms other people around her. They both deal with me in two different ways. And it's just so interesting. And Evie drags everybody else into it with her. And totally. And she's more general about it. Just a heads up for exactly the next two minutes. We're going to be talking about self harm and cutting. I just want to give you a heads up because if that's a thing that you don't hear us talk about in any detail, it's not like gruesome detail or anything, but we do talk about it. So that's the thing that you want to skip straight up two minutes from when I get done with this little blip. And that's that'll get you through. All right, let's get back to the episode. Yeah. And, oh, God, when Tracy, again, I have sort of like moderately minimal experience cutting with self harm. But I but many of my friends and loved ones have have some history with it, you know, from from minimal to extensive. I was a part of her. Yeah. And were you when she first dives in with little sewing scissors, like, girl, we got to up the game, like, girl, like, we got to that's it's supposed to hurt, but that hurts in a different way. Like this is a different way. It was a little too intense for me. Yeah, because I was like, my soul harm was like piercing like I would after I was like piercing kids. Yeah, I was piercing myself. And then I'm like, that's minimal damage, but it feels real, feels good. I'm going to put we're going to put a big sort of warning over this section for obvious reasons. But like, I was the same, like, because I started like scars started to get noticed with cutting. Exactly. And then I was like, but you know what I can do is I can really go to town with a needle. There's also like, you know, choosing to get into bad relationships with people knowing that they're going to hurt you. So like, there's like so many versions of self harm, which been there. In there. Oh, shit. We're just like everyone listening, including myself was just like, I mean, like cutting is like the very obvious, like TV team. Yeah, it's the one for one to one. Yeah. Yeah. But no, I can hurt myself in a number of different abstract ways. Even the eating disorder stuff for me, like I have an eating disorder that started when I was really young. That was a self harm thing. Wasn't to look good. No, it's control and and and, you know, feeling out of control and it's it's all sorts of things. People again, it's like people equate stuff with like the text of the content and not like everything that supports it. And it's yeah, it's like people think it's like about vanity. And it's like, no. Yeah. And you also don't have to have such a troubled life. Like it doesn't have to be as bad as in this movie for you to need to do it. You know what I mean? Like my parents would leave me the fuck alone. And I wanted some sort of control in my own life. I wanted like to do what I wanted to do. And so self harm was a way that I could do it for myself, which is so fucked up being outside of it now. But like back then, I was just like, it's the only way the only way through for sure. Yep. All relatable. Well, so they drop Evie off and it's it's effectively kind of what we realize is going to be the end of their relationship. Because Evie feels abandoned in the situation for reasons that I mean, there are no heroes in this particular place. Like everyone has been put into a weird situation with the exception of Evie's mom. Like she is kind of villainous, but like everyone is put into a weird position. Tracy leaves when she shows back up at school. Evie has gone back to pretending she does not know who she is. We see that the dynamic has changed. And then she's walking home. Tracy is walking home or something along those lines. Jeremy Sisto picks her up and is like, your mom wants me to take you back. And she walks into everyone's worst nightmare who is going through an out of control time, but thinks that they're going to get it together tomorrow and intervention. The worst intervention ever. But it does lead to one of my favorite vocal stems of all time. Which is what? If fucking stinks in here, Mal. Evie's mom calls Tracy a cunt. I was like, whoa. Where do you think she learned this shit from? Evie was or Tracy was playing with Barbies before she met Evie. So many good lines. It's really perfect. Yeah, an intervention. God damn, I can't even imagine like an inner being a 13 year old girl having an intervention hosted by your mom, your former best friend slash quasi girlfriend's mom as well. And that person is also there. And the person who introduced you to all of it. Right. I've been here. I have been not in this specific thing, but that thing where you're essentially held accountable for things that like everyone else in the room was way more guilty for. But you're like, I just I'm new here. Like, I don't know. I can also say in Tracy's defense, she didn't just learn this from Evie. She learned it from her mom and her mom's boyfriend. Right. Absolutely. Like she was around drugs before even came along. I think everyone is trying to put the blame on Tracy. And it's Tracy is such a victim. Like, even though she is like the brunt of it, she really is like the true victim of this story. I agree entirely. And there is an extremely convenient laundering that's happening by way of her mother who not once. I mean, she does have the moment where she's having a bit of a breakdown and she's in the shower and she says something like I'm terrible or something along those lines. And that's like the closest we get to her being like, perhaps are we here because of some of my own shit? I mean, yeah, I will say I don't think I think she's flawed, but I don't think she's a bad mom. I think she really was good as she could with what she had at the time. And she's she's doing a lift on behalf of two parents because one person is gone. Exactly. And she's there. She does care. Totally. And she's also doing the real like, addicty people pleaser thing with the ex. Like, she's on the phone with him and she's like, oh, that's great. That sounds like a great opportunity. And it's like, fuck this guy. Like this guy sucks. Your ex husband sucks. And she's like trying to show up in like a good way for him. And it's like he's left. He left. He's abandoned. And something that actually doesn't come full circle. I know I said everything in this movie comes full circle, but something that doesn't is the relationship with the brother. Like, what is his deal? What happens with him? Because he is also off the rails. As far as I'm concerned, he's off the rails. He's hanging out with the same people. Tracy's hanging out with a little older. To me, I thought a lot about this and I feel like there are like two reads. As one is that this is only alarming when it happens to girls. Like, I think that there is that kind of standard where it's like there's like boys will be boys. And part of boys being boys is like their absolute chaos monsters who like walk around like objectifying the girls in their lives. But the other is like, I also I'm not saying that this is the case because we're not given enough evidence. But like, I remember in all of my groups of chaos monster friends, there were like people who were there and participating, but like had it totally under control somehow. And he could be one of those. Like, we never get the sense that he's unhinged. Like he's just kind of around it. And as a result of him being around it, he can see her. But I also just think that there's a gender double standard. Totally. Because they're like, mom knows I smoke pot. He says that and it's like, really? Yeah. What are the rules at this house? It's like she Tracy is constantly getting punished for something that everybody else in the movie is doing. And that always rubbed me the wrong way. And I'm always like, hello, take a look around, people. Yeah, for sure. This poor girl. For sure. No, I agree entirely. Yeah. That's the thing is like there is no. There's absolutely like no semblance of order that she's faced with. So she there's the intervention. Can you describe the intervention? Like what do we learn? What takes place? What is the vibe? Well, we find out all the actual drugs that they're doing. Like she empties a drawer and it's like even more than. Like Hunter Thompson. Yeah, it's like they were doing every single drug. They weren't just like doing whippets and hitting each other in the face. Like they were. Was there like a crack pipe in there or something? Yeah, it's crazy in there. It's like there was there are gongs. They were fucking tabs of acid. There were mushers. It was like everything in there. So it was like it did go a little bit further than what we saw. Yeah. But a lot of it was Evie's. Like maybe we only saw Tracy's POV. And so maybe what we see on camera is as far as it went. And maybe Evie just threw her whole stash in there since she didn't get in trouble. The sense that we get from their exchanges is like, you know, Evie's wholesale throwing her under the bus. Yeah. And so I, you know, Evie is also like the connect on all of this stuff. It's like hard to tell who's is what. But they also have like since merged lives. So it's like hard to tell who is ultimately responsible for what. And Evie says to her, she's like, I had to rat you out because they were taking me in, which is like real good fellowship. I know. And they were like they were on that level. Like they had hundreds of dollars. They had so like bags of clothes. Like they really had like a whole underground operation. Yeah. Yeah. She had eight hundred and seventy dollars. Yeah. That's a lot of money. And this is what I what I did enjoy about this scene. Like the other thing that this scene serves is having the mirror, right? Because on one couch, we have Evie's mom and we have Tracy's mom. And then across from them, we have Tracy and Evie. And we see like Evie's mom and Tracy's mom are shown together. And you're able to realize that it's like they actually have a lot in common. Like their approaches are very different. Like I do think that Evie's mom is like maybe the closest we get to a villain in this movie, though I understand to like some of the ways that she likely arrived to these places. But like to your point, we see Evie's mom actively shitty. Tracy's mom was maybe shitty last year. Yeah. And we're just not we're not seeing it because we're seeing her in recovery. But like it wasn't long ago that like maybe things were chaotic in their house in the same way. Yeah. We start off with a movie where Tracy is fully parentified. She's the mom. Right. As far as I can learn, Tracy's like, Mom, I have to get school at this time. I have my homework. I have an assignment I have to do. I can't babysit. And everyone's like, God, come on, you'll do it for it. And it's like, OK, so we already know that she had to play the mother at a certain point. Right. Well, and there are two ways that that neglect can go, right? Whereas like one is the parentification of a kid and the other is like they're just like unleashed into chaos or sometimes both somehow. So like I think that, yeah, we have this duality that exists like within the two girls and within their two mothers and we're able to kind of see them all in the same room. And then what happens is Evie's mom believing that Evie can do no wrong because maybe that would require believing that she could do wrong. You know, lashes out, blames Tracy for everything. They leave. Tracy realizes at school that she's basically failed the seventh grade, which is like perhaps one of the most embarrassing things to have to be faced with in the movie. Realizes that that's possible, which is like kind of the worst situation because I remember that also about like seventh grade is like that's where grades started to feel like they had stakes in a way that like all the other grades didn't. Like you just had to show up prior, but like seventh grade on like there's actual stakes. You have to pass stuff in. You have to you're, you know, I think the worst part of the intervention, though, is her mom finds out she's still harming because that yeah, you know, everything is out in the open. But the second she's like, look at her arm. I love that when the mom is realizing that and that that's the case. I like that she points of finger. She points of finger at Evie's mom. It was like, was like, there's something like you have no right to talk Frankenstein, which is iconic. But then it leads to like some of the best acting I've ever seen in my life, which is Ed and Rachel Wood having like the breakdown in the kitchen. Yes. And Holly Hunter and they just hold each other. And they're in the bed holding each other. And it's like day turns to night turns to day. Oh, it's so beautiful. It really is. Yeah. And they, you know, they kind of they essentially like find each other again. And that's more or less where we leave off. Well, the last shot with her with Ed and Rachel Wood on like little Mary, the little carousel thing in the park, screaming. Oh, it's so major. It's so tumblr. Yeah. So I was just screaming in a freeze frame, which is really. And the freeze frame is so good. Remarkable. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. I mean, I think that, God, I think that the reason why I assume the reason why this movie is so tender for a lot of people is like, this is, you know, I'm not a girl as people might assume, but like this resonated extremely with the chaos of the ages 12 and 13. Yeah. In a way where if you were even close to touching it, it's like not necessarily a thing you want to you always want to like dive into. And remember, it's also like one of those things where it's like being a kid and being a teenager are very different. Like I remember being specifically 13 and really wanting to feel seen and understood for who I was and not who like my parents wanted me to be your society. Like they wanted me to be like such a good girl, like always did my home. I'm like, I'm something outside of that, though. And I need you to know who I am. And you actively ignoring it for some reason. And you were like, you projected like I'm just a good kid. And I remember being like, I want people to treat me like an adult. Like I'm growing up now and I want people to treat me like I'm actually growing up. And I'm not stunted as like a little child. Yeah, I think that that software upgrade from 11 to 12 or 11 to 13 or whatever is so fast and abrupt that I can understand how it happens. And it is more complex and it happens faster than parents are ready to adjust their perception for. Yeah. And they obviously need to in order for things to go smoothly. But I understand that like for the kid, it's extremely frustrating to be like, how am I not being seen? Why am I not being seen? Et cetera, et cetera. And like to the people who love them and brought them up, it's like, you were just a pretty specific thing for 11 years and now you are a radically different thing. Yeah. It's scary for everybody. Totally. And then God add to that so much of our culture, our popular culture. Is essentially like defined by like one foot in rape culture and like a pedophilic beauty standard and like sort of like all of this, all of this stuff that like suggests that, well, everyone who you know and love don't understand you suddenly, you are also going through puberty or there's like or there's like some sort of substantial bodily change that's happening with like hormonal change, with psychological change. And a lot of the people who are paying attention to you are not good for your health. Yeah. And just like that whole it's a storm. Like anyone, anyone who comes out of it unscathed, you know, tell us your secret. I know. And the thing about puberty, it's like, yeah, our bodies are changing, but they don't talk about like the way it makes you feel at that age. And it's like miserable. Like every day is a fucking nightmare and it's like the attitude and like I am so uncomfortable in my own body. So any little thing is going to set you off. And I think adults really don't give children grace for that period of time. Like I remember my mom was like, you're so angry, you're so ungrateful. You have such an attitude and I'm like, I'm miserable. Yeah. And I think in this movie, you have like the no bra, no panties scene, which is like, again, one of the other best vocal stems from this movie. But I remember like antagonizing my own mother in that specific way because like, hello, Payton, you see me now, don't you? Hello, here I am. Yeah, we're like a little demon emergence. Totally. The demon emerges up to like give you voice. Yeah. God, it's I really, again, I think because of the way it was described to me by people and when I say it's sweet, I mean, it's obviously not sweet. It's like not saccharine in any way. But like, I think this movie loves these kids. There are tender moments in it and like female friendship, bonding, like kissing each other for boys. It's for boys. Don't worry. It's for boys. Girl, no, and please. And that was what I did too. I would tell my little girlfriends, hey, we need to get really good at kissing for boys. What a lie. Yeah, what a lie. I remember doing that exact same shit too. And I'm just like, and that was like where I see myself in that movie where it's like, but I didn't know that at the time. I genuinely thought I was doing something helpful. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's there is a again, like I just think that the movie likes these kids a lot in a way that like I don't necessarily feel that way about kids, right? Like I think that it's like very it's very verite, like in a way that I don't think it takes time to love these kids and the kids and the kids that it does love. It puts through like almost like a biblical Jobe in like quest where you're like, you know, you don't leave Job thinking that God actually loves his children. There were there were parts of that where I'm like, I don't know. But I in this movie, I feel very much like this is a movie that kind of loves with the exception of Randy. That's the mom's name, right, Randy? Brooke, Brooke, Brooke, I get the sense that this movie like kind of loves everybody who's in it, for the most part, with the exception of people who are overly predatory. I think I think that really has to do with Nikki Reed beat having gone through it. And I think Catherine Hart was being like her stepmom and observing it and then them writing it together. I don't think you would have that without the actual experience behind it. I really don't. Yeah, no, I mean, it would feel there would be so much objectification. And like, that's another thing about kids. It feels even though Harmony Cren wrote it and was around like Larry Clark was a classic, you know, old photographer who took pictures of teenagers. And it felt like that, you know, in a lot of ways. So there was objectification there. But like here, because it is someone who is like of the scene, who is actively participating with like every part of the movie, it feels like there's actual humanization happening. And even just like the the relationship between Melanie and the Jeremy sister character, like it's all sweet. Like there is a you understand why they keep showing up for each other, even though it's like obviously disruptive in the way that it is. And you see her old friends like coming and going, like they're always like, are we going to hang out? Stuff like there was like there was a lot of nuance to it. And like it wasn't just like she dove head first and there was no coming back. Like there were people around her that were trying to like pull her out of it. It was really such a good, well made movie. And I think stylistically, it's just so major. I love Katherine Harvick's style. Yeah, agreed. And I like the blue. Like it was a lot. A lot of anime influence. It felt like of like the color blue and I liked how like the poster, that one poster with the eyeballs. It was on her bedroom wall and then you would see it in the background and it was getting dirtier and dirtier as the movie progressed. And you're just like, whoa, that's going on. That's cool. Yeah, that's really great. Do you have anything to say about the movie before we start rapping? Do you have anything that you have not said that you'd like to say about it? Good question. I think I think just like some of the lines are so funny to like to this day, I just think there's and it's like the best drug acting I've ever seen. For sure. Like especially like Evan Ritchell would never have done drugs before. She's like on acid. She's like, I'm a lion. You are. I'm just like, dude, you're so talented. What the hell? Absolutely. Yeah, I think like a lot of a lot of like drug acting is like usually like quote, like out of it. But where the actual experience like kind of across the board in some ways is either like disorientation or extreme inward looking. And so I think that they do like they do that really, really well. And when they're doing the Whippets and hitting each other, I'm like, this is insane. Like they're so good at this. And allegedly Nikki Reed, when she was giving Evan Ritchell what the belly button piercing accidentally did pierce her. That sounds right. And so her reaction in the movie is real. That sounds right. Yeah, I'm sure there was probably some commentary about the responsibility of putting teen actors in this position. But I guess since Nikki Reed was her stepdaughter already. And had already gone through a lot of this. Yeah, fascinating case study. Well, I am going to ask you a question that we ask everybody at the end of the show. You're welcome to interpret it however you want. The whole point is that it's a Rorschach test. So we know that Tracy's father is played by the ship for Brans father from Friday Night Lights, who plays the devil to Coach Taylor's angel. Who in your view is the daddy of the movie 13? I think he is the more is the daddy. Tell me more. I think Tomi Zamora. I think she always had a big dig energy throughout the entire thing. She like was so experienced in ways where you're like, that's not a child. That's an evil demon who's 100 years old. She was always daddy. Yeah, absolutely. He stayed manipulative till the very end. She never grew. She never changed. She was the one character that always got away with it. And to me, I'm like, OK, well, I always wonder what happened to Evee Zamora. Where is she now? Like that's a great question. Like she's either dead or a corporate lawyer. Great points. Yes. I think probably a lawyer. It's hard to like there's seven years of her life she doesn't talk about because there's, you know, she didn't have problems with school. Tracy did. Right. Like she probably bullshitted her way through school. And I know Evee or Tracy gets held back, I'm sure. Has to repeat seventh grade. But we don't know what happens to Evee. For all we know, maybe she graduated high school early. Yeah, I knew several of these like absolute menaces who are like menaces and somehow like in the top ten of the class at all times, where you're like, what deal with the devil did you make? They're way to the top. They fluff their way to the top. They cheat their way to the top. And I think that's Evee's trajectory. And I think she probably becomes broke. I think she becomes her mother. Sure. That maybe isn't as obsessed with the way she looks. But I think she probably stays horrible. Yeah, because like there's no one. I mean, she stays horrible or hits bottom because like there's no she has no incentive for change because like Brooke is making excuses for her. But again, Evee's like the brother. It's like Tracy's brother. It's like she does all the things, but she doesn't. She's not as out of control as Tracy is with it. So I feel like people probably don't even notice. I think that that's probably the case. I'm going to say that the daddy of this movie is Jack Black in the in universe movie, the misadventures of Ezekiel Balls. Why are you talking about the movie within the movie? I loved this. First of all, I say this a lot on the show as like everyone, whatever people find out you live in L.A. or like to see famous people. And yes, I see Jack Black every week somehow. Like Jack Black is not hiding. He lives in Los Feliz and is constantly riding a motorized scooter. And it's the funniest thing on earth. And he dresses increasingly like Bowser from the Mario Brothers movie. I love that there is an end joke in this movie that there's a Jack Black like film. That's what it's called. The Misadventures of Ezekiel Balls. Why can't people say or traipsing around Hollywood Boulevard when they could have been watching that movie? They threw away the Disney snacks. Instead of sitting and watching that gorgeous film. Totally. I wouldn't have found out what Mr. Balls misadventures are, actually. And that's what that's what I would like. The real my real answer, though, is this is just a nod. I don't think he is the daddy. And I actually very rarely pick a cis man to be the daddy of any movie if I don't have to. But I loved the portrayal of the system. Like, I love the portrayal of that character where it's like a person like a stepdad or someone who's like dealing with addiction, whose presence is what is disorienting. But like he is not necessarily disorienting, although like his past, obviously, similar to her mom's past is like, what is disorienting as well? That the addicts are not played for villains in this movie. I do like that. And it's it's honestly quite surprising. Yeah, I mean, I feel like if I were Tracy and my mom kept choosing this fucking guy over me, I would feel a way about it for sure. Oh, no, I agree entirely. I mean, I think that I think that all of this is all of this is rooted to like bad decision making selfishness, like lack of emotional maturity and stuff like sort of on the on the parent level. And at the end of the day, the person who I'm celebrating in this is Catherine Hardwick for making the choice to like not vilify addicts beyond just the ways that there would be disorienting. Yeah. And I think you brought up a good point about how Mel always stays sober. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and it's it just goes to show that it's like sometimes if there's this chaos in your life in one way or another, like sobriety is good and important, but it's not going to fix everything. Like you're still going to live in the chaos, but imagine living it being fucked up, too. Exactly. Yeah. It's such a good point. Yeah. So it's a zealot balls and Catherine Hardwick. I love Holly Hunter so much. She does. I can't imagine anybody else in this role. Like she did such a beautiful job and I was like, I really can't. I can't even think about how anyone else would have played it. No, she's really she's really perfect. She's such a singular person. But to go back to the movie, I think maybe she would be involved in like several MLMs. Oh, for sure. I'm sure like I bet she's very spiritual. She's spiritual. Yeah. She's gone through some phases. I bet her Instagram stories get shared by people who know her and they go, check out what you've been posted. Yeah. Pretty. Thank you. Thank you. This is so fun. This is really until I'm glad we went glad we got to 13 and the ways that we did. No, I'm so glad you saw it. Oh, really perfect. Come back to talk about high school musical. I mean it. I'm coming back for all of that. I love that. That's a commitment. Art, everybody, thank you so much for listening to this episode of You Are Good at Feeling Spicast about movies. Thanks to Miranda Zickler for producing and editing this episode. Thanks to Bre Esserig for coming here and recommending this movie, suggesting this movie. We had a great time talking about this movie. Thanks to Fresh Lash for providing the beats to make our episode sound so sweet. Thanks to Y'all for being great in general. I'm just glad that you're here. Thanks, everyone, for supporting us on Patreon and Apple Podcast subscriptions. We appreciate you. Thanks to everybody generally for listening and telling everybody about this show. It means the world. Until next time, don't forget that you, my friend, are good. I'm so glad that you're here. We will talk with y'all again soon.