826 Ask the Senior Nomads; What Europeans Are Talking About

When you spend the first 12 years of your retirement traveling the world full time, people want to know how you do it. It's just the two of us and we're on the board of directors, we're on the task force, we're on the budget committee, it's just the same over and over and over again. And so you just have to get along. I go the doodly way, he goes the straight way and we end up in the same place. Coming up, the senior nomads answer your questions for making long-term travel work for you. We'll also check in with friends from Europe on some of what they've been talking about lately and to hear what they expect from the European Union. The idea of Europe for me personally really is people getting together, working together. For me Europe was the possibility of studying abroad. While in Britain, regrets over their divorce from the EU remain. Peace, prosperity and predictability. Brexit has undermined all three of those things. Come join us for the hour ahead on Travel with Rick Steves. The world may be a lot of things lately, but boring it is not. Coming up today on Travel with Rick Steves, we've assembled another panel of friends from Europe to tell us what they've been thinking about and discussing in their countries, especially how they view the ideals of the European Union as an increasingly divisive political climate gains traction on their side of the Atlantic. Let's start the hour with another visit from Debbie and Michael Campbell. We recently invited listeners to email us questions for them to learn more about how they were able to experience the world, living as the senior nomads. In 2013, Debbie and Michael Campbell kicked off their retirement by traveling. They packed their bags and bought a one-way ticket to Europe. Within a few years they had sold their home in Seattle and were calling themselves the senior nomads, sharing their adventures and advice to help others do the same. Twelve years and ninety-five countries later, they finally put down their suitcases and have an official address once again and it just happens to be my hometown, Edmunds, Washington. We've interviewed Michael and Debbie several times over the years and we've invited them to be our guest again as we've invited our listeners to send in their questions about this enticing retirement plan. Debbie and Michael join us now on Travel with Rick Steves to answer your curious emails about making the road your home. Debbie and Michael, thanks for being here. Thanks. Thanks, Rick. Wow, what a great trip and now you're home. This is amazing to me because fifteen years ago you probably never envisioned this. Your daughter ends up marrying, falling in love and marrying a Frenchman I guess. Yes. So you go over there and you kind of, oh, this world's an interesting place. You ended up on this twelve-year odyssey, now you're back. What does it feel like to be settling back in after twelve years in ninety-five countries and now you're back home? Well, it's wonderful to be able to see family and friends just about any time you want to. You're not trying to cram it into a short return to your hometown, not necessarily your physical home. So we are renting a home now and it's lovely. Michael, how about you? Well, it allowed me to get deeper into my love of the Seattle Mariners. So there you go. I've enjoyed that. I also took two classes at Edmunds College, which was just a great experience. I plan on continuing to do that more. So active lifestyle as we, even though you're not this vagabond on the road, traveling around like some kid with a backpack. But we'll be on the road again soon. That's good. Now you wrote on your website, which by the way is really cool, seniornomads.com, where you keep all your blogs, that Debbie is the dreamer and Michael is Mr. Practical. Does that work together to make a good traveling duo because you're still together and you're still smiling after 47 years of marriage? It works really well. I mean, I go the doodly way. He goes the straight way and we end up in the same place. So it's good. Usually she calls me Captain Spreadsheet. And yes, it has worked. I mean, I love that. I love that, that you compliment each other with your idealism and your practicality. She travel planner, financial guru, and I'm fun and food. Fun and food. That's a t-shirt right there. I'm fun and food. All right. Hey, well, let's read these. I'm going to read these emails that some of our travelers have sent in when we said you were going to be joining us. Kathy from Edinburgh, Pennsylvania wrote, I'm retired. I love to travel, but not ready to be a full-time nomad. I'm interested in recommendations for the best places to call home for three or four months out of the year based on weather, cost, and available activities with a sizable expat community. She'll be going solo. So that's interesting. She doesn't want to go like you guys 12 years in a row, but take three months on the road with an expat community. What would you think? She should get herself to San Miguel de Allende in Mexico. It is a wonderful colonial town, high desert, so many expats, so much to do there. We love it. We go every year. Very good answer. Scott in Washington, DC writes, what would a realistic budget for two of us traveling six months a year? I think that's the hardest one to answer simply because we all have different resources. Let's assume they're wondering it's going to be tight. Let's just say somebody is trying to be creative about this and hoping it doesn't cost as much as you might expect. What's a reasonable low-end budget for this? I'm really just so hesitant. You can couch surf and you can stay at the Ritz and everything in between, and you can stay in one country in one place for longer periods of time, which cuts down on your expenses, or you can kind of giddy up around Europe three nights in every major city. I think it just depends. What country you're going to and how fast you're moving? If you stay put in an expensive country, it can be cheaper than moving around in a cheaper country. Maybe, but I was going to say, if they go to the Senior Nomads Facebook group page and join, you can search that body of information from 19,000 travelers, and many of our members will share their budgets. Talking about budgets, yeah. They share their spreadsheets. They share everything. Is couch surfing still a thing if you really want a tight budget? No, no. Did I age myself? I don't know. I think the problem is short-term rentals like Airbnb now cost almost as much as hotels because it's become a great way to make money, I guess. Well, you've probably seen this in your travels. I think hostels have really become much nicer than they used to be. Hostels is a great idea. Older travelers can go to hostels. It's not just for teenagers. Every city has different kinds of hostels. There are hostels that are party hostels, and there are hostels for older travelers that just want to have a great community and a member's kitchen and don't want to spend a lot of money on fancy extras. It's sort of industrial strength rooms and a member's kitchen and a lounge. Another way that our followers travel is through an organization called Trusted House Sitters. There's a lot of house sitting around the world, and it often comes with pets. We've had friends that have stayed places two and three months looking after animals. Debbie, that fits your philosophy of traveling with a mindset that we are living here. We're not sightseeing. We are living here. It's a fundamental different approach. If I was going on an extended trip, I would have your approach. When I'm going on my in a batting cage hitting all these little sights out of the park, I'm going quick like typical Americans. I love that philosophy. You got for the longer trip. For the past 12 years, Michael and Debbie Campbell were able to spice up their retirement by relocating to a different Airbnb or guest house every few weeks in 95 different countries around the world. You can see how others are trying their hand at long-term travel on their Senior Nomads Facebook group. There's a shortcut to it from their website, seniornomads.com. Iris in Stockton, California writes, How did you handle keeping tabs with doctors back home regarding current medical issues and prescriptions while traveling for extended periods? We came back once a year and had our annual physicals. Anything else, we just took care of on the road. Your doctor must have been so impressed and envious that once a year you'd drop into hometown for your checkup and then you'd go, You're getting younger. All of your signs are younger. What are you doing? I think what the good news is to give yourself permission, there are doctors all over the world and good doctors and there's dentists. We've gone to dentists all over the world. People think you've got to come home for good medical care. You were on the road for 12 years. And some prescriptions that we pay a fortune for are cheaper overseas and some of them are over the counter. I found that in your pollute. Steve in Davenport, Florida writes, What is your secret for emerging from your years of travel with your relationship intact? How did you deal with conflicts between each other while you were traveling? It's my turn. It's just the two of us. We're on the board of directors. We're on the task force. We're on the budget committee. It's just the two of us, the same over and over and over again. And so you just have to get along. And we've talked oftentimes about rowing the boat in the same direction and it has enhanced our marriage multiple fold. That is quite a compliment to your ability to communicate. I mean, mutual respect and communication. You're making decisions all the time. I remember when I was younger trying to, because I had one travel partner for every long trip. And it occurred to me, we're not tied in a three legged race. We don't have our legs tied together and walking everywhere at the same time. And there's nothing wrong with saying, you want to do that, but I don't. Why don't you go do that? I'll do what I want to do and I'll see you in three hours for lunch. A lot of people think that's insulting. No, you have to do that. Michael would go to football games and I would be so happy. And sorry. There you go. But also forgive and forget. I mean, you just cannot hold grudges at any level. You could write a book. I could write another book. A book, Lessons from the Road for the Good of Your Relationship. Faith in Lawrence, Kansas writes, my husband and I both fully retired in the past year and we want more travel. How did you decide where to go and how did you prioritize your travels? We have a hard time deciding where to go next and what is a must see. How did you decide where to go and prioritize? I think it's such an individual thing. What books do you read? What are your interests? Where are you curious about? That's a good way to put it. It's like choosing a book. And also to remember, you've got a lot of travels ahead of you. It's not like I'm not going to do that. Let's just front load this one and we'll do that one later. Start in Europe. Start with the easy ones and then spread out as you go. And also, some people want to go visit gardens. Some people want to golf. Some people want to go to historical sites. Just find a priority or a passion and follow it. And I know from your website, which by the way is seniornomads.com, that some of your most endearing countries, some of your best experiences were in places I wouldn't have thought would be the highlights. Uzbekistan or something like this. You don't look like adventure travelers to me. You look like people I'd meet at the Eiffel Tower. And he'd tell me Uzbekistan was a favorite. Well that opens a lot of opportunities up to me. Okay, the next question is from Rob in West Bloomfield, Michigan. My wife loves Southern Italy and wants to move there. We have visited numerous times and the topic comes up over and over. During your nomadic years, did you ever consider a permanent residence abroad? We do. We consider it all the time. Wow, this is great. Could we live here? Should we live here? What are the visa requirements? And then we also thought a lot about tying up our limited resources in a fixed asset print home on foreign soil and the illiquidity of that. And ultimately the finance department, the two of us, concluded that that just didn't fit our financial profile. And your captain's spreadsheet, is that your name? Yeah, captain's spreadsheet. So you got that figured out in a very logical way, it sounds like, Debbie. And now we have a three-year-old grandson and I'm not going anywhere. But I would encourage anybody who wants to live overseas to dig in there. It's certainly doable, but just keep in mind the visa requirements. Michael and Debbie, it is so much fun to travel with you because you're just so inspirational and tempting and fun-loving and just darn impressive of what you've done and the relationship that has grown, I think, I would say the last 12 years have been a pretty beautiful part of your 47-year marriage. Totally, absolutely. What's probably the place on earth that you haven't been to that people would go, you're kidding, you've been to 95 places and you haven't been there? Hawaii, Alaska. Jamaica, maybe. Jamaica. Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka. I'm with you. That's an amazing place. Hey, this is Travel through Xtives. We've been hanging out with the senior nomads who are no longer the senior nomads, the senior homebodies for a couple of weeks. Michael and Debbie Campbell. Once again, their website is seniornomads.com. Happy travels even if you're just staying home. Thank you. Thank you so much. The Campbells write about their senior nomad adventures in their book, Your Keys, Our Home. We'll hear what kind of political concerns are on the minds of our friends in Europe next. It's Travel with Rick Steves. One of the most eye-opening parts of traveling is talking with locals and discovering how people in other countries wrestle with their own political and social challenges. And then, to realize how similar these issues are with the ones that we're struggling with in our country, I've found it fascinating and genuinely instructive to look at how Europe's political and media landscapes shape public conversations. What's in the headlines? How are the stories being framed? And what cultural values influence the way Europeans respond to the same problems that we're dealing with here in the United States? I've asked a few of my tour guide friends from Europe to join me today to find out what they're talking about in Europe lately. Agnes Soroka joins us from Gdansk in Poland. Michael Dempsey is a British man who lives in Italy and guides around Germany. And Holger Zimmer is from Berlin. Holger, Michael, Agnes, thanks for joining us. Welcome. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Well, let's just say we've got a Brit, we've got a Pole, and we've got a German, and we're going to talk about not how the world relates to the United States, because Americans believe that kind of the United States is the hub and all news comes in and out of the United States. And of course, it's not quite that simple. And if we were to vanish, like sometimes it seems we're trying to do, people still have their news that has nothing to do with us. One of my most interesting experiences as a traveler was in India. I'm a real news junkie, and I was in India for a month, and I thought, I'm not going to read any news from the United States. He has English language press, and I read the Indian Times and the Indian News Week. And I got all excited about what's going on in India, not related to my country. We Americans tend to be so ethnocentric that way. And today I'd like to just be immersed in Europe without all this America stuff. You know, we have a thing called a news junkie. Do you guys have something like that, Holger? Yeah, I would say. I mean, I'm a broadcast journalist. So my day starts with getting ready with what's happening. And as we are, especially Germany, is the center of Europe. We are surrounded by neighbors and friends, and we want to know. We want to know about the French election. We want to know about the Polish prime minister, and we need to know what's going on in the welfare state in Scandinavia. So yes, we are looking closely to what's happening around us. You know, I never quite thought about it that way, but you are surrounded by very interesting and diverse things going on. Other countries might not have the variety of news around that all impacts you because you border it. Agnes, what's the appetite just for news in general? Oh, I would say we have even more interesting friends and neighbors around. Tell us about your neighbors. From a historical point of view, and currently having war behind our border with Russia invaded Ukraine. And you know, I'm from the generation, and I remember solidarity from 1980. But I do remember solidarity of Polish people and whole Europe when Russia invaded Ukraine and we fled the borders with help. Wasn't that a beautiful example of solidarity? Yes, it is. It was a few years ago, and Poland kind of led that, and people were inspired. Those were four months and a few millions Ukrainian distributed all over the country to our homes. You guys are literally, I guess you're on the border of Belarusia, right? Yes. And we went close to the action. Exactly. I remember once in Poland, Putin was angry at Poland, and he said they were going to boycott Polish apples. And Poland relies on selling apples to Russia, I think. And everywhere I went, people were eating apples to be patriotic. And it was said basically, F Putin, eat an apple. Yeah, that was a middle finger showing to Putin. Exactly. Apples were everywhere. And breakfast table at the hotel on the main square on the trains. I've never eaten so many apples in one week than that one time I was in Poland. You know, that is our character as well. We always wanted to show our individuality because for so many years we were either invaded, occupied from all possible directions, but we found a way during solidarity, but we found a way now. All together. How many people in Poland? How many millions? Almost 40 million. 40 million people flipping the apple at Putin. Correct. Michael from England. What's the... Do people have an appetite for news in England? What's the environment there? I think there's less of a sense for the importance of what's going in neighbouring countries in the UK for many. I think we do have a more insular mindset in England. Certainly I don't want to speak for Scotland there, but England and Wales, I'd say that's true and I think that's reflected by the choice to leave the European Union. It's reflected in the polling too for the Reform Party, which is basically a far-right populist party under Nigel Farage, who was one of the architects of Brexit in the first place. Where did the far-right people, Farage's base, where do they get their news? I mean, Trump's base gets their news on Fox, obviously. Yeah, so the BBC is coming in for a lot of criticism right now from such quarters from the right and I think they get their news from GB News, which is a... Compete with BBC. Yeah. So, you know, PBS is in Trump's crosshairs and he doesn't like it for understandable reasons, and Farage would have the same sort of frustration with BBC, maybe. Absolutely, because of its charter to be even-handed. Right. Even-handed. It's the world round. Well, let's tell both stories. Right. No. This is Travel with Rick Steves. I'm joined by Michael Dempsey from Britain, Agnes Seroca from Poland, and Holger Zimmer from Berlin in Germany, and we're talking about what Europeans are talking about right now in their news. Hey, another thing that I'd like to talk about just, sort of set the groundwork here, is how do you guys see yourselves? I've always... It's always been curious to me. I see the EU flag, I see the German flag, and I see the Bavarian flag on the city hall. Was this person in Bavaria, let's say Munich, would he think of himself as Bavarian or German or European, Holger? Well, I think in general, yes, we do have strong regional identities, especially in the South, like Bavaria is kind of like the Texas thing. No, Miesel and Mier, like we are special. But like to me, personally, I grew up like in the middle of Germany in Hessen, but I don't speak the Dalek so much. I have different... my parents were different, but with the history that Germany had, my upbringing was pretty much like to be patriotic or to like your country. That is a no-no. That's not something you do. And I only actually learned to come to understand that actually Germany is an amazing country, a beautiful country with great people and wonderful nature while traveling and coming home and saying, hey, it's not so bad to actually be happy about it. I'm not proud of anything because it's not... You know, I was born there, it's not my choice or I didn't do anything for it. So I'm happy to be growing up in this country, but I never had this idea of like, oh, I've got to be proud of patriotic. No, I think it's one of the countries that's got good things and got bad things about it. So to me, I think I feel myself more like someone who likes kind of European spirit, like I probably feel more European in a way of like enjoying the good things of all different countries around us than really like be Deutsch. That's part of the heritage you have from the last hundred years with the oppression helmet and the goose stepping and of course the whole Hitler thing. And I find that must be kind of awkward because it wasn't you, your grandparents and so on. But still when you look at a monument in England, I see heroes from World War I on a monument. You don't see heroes from World War II on a monument in Germany. No, and that's good for good reasons. There weren't heroes, but they still are human beings that were killed who are in a sense victims of tyranny. I think it's even says in memory of the victims of tyranny. War and destruction. War and destruction. Yeah, I would say it really is a double-edged sword. And but by now I would say like I'm happy to enjoy the good sides of Germany, but I'm also pretty much know like what I'm critical of my country. Yeah. Yes, Poland is a very important country, but it's kind of a new country into the relatively new country into the whole Western European mix, the EU and so on. So we think of Spain and Italy and France and Germany as the big players, but Poland is as big and as populous and it has a very important economy as well. How is the European Union working out for the people of Poland? For my generation, Europe started and opened for us. Well the beginning was Solidarity in 1980 and then we were the first country to get freedom out of the communist regime. Before Berlin Wall collapsed, Poland was a free democratic country just several weeks. Anyway, for me Europe was the possibility of studying abroad. The possibility of going abroad without showing our passport on the border as we discussed is troubling. Isn't that something that's a big deal if you lived in the Warsaw Pact? Yeah, that was impossible. So we just had our small bubble. If you wanted to go skiing before that bubble, you went to Zakopane. Exactly. Now I can go to Alps. One place the Poles went to ski, Zakopane. The Bulgarians, one place they went to go to the beach, the Black Sea coast. The Hungarians, what's the big lake? Oh, Balaton. All the way, you had to go to those places and suddenly Europe is your oyster. The world is your playground. We always wear, you know, central mathematical point, central mathematical point of European continent. It's very close to Warsaw and very few people remember that. Isn't that interesting? And that was a big decision we made here in our staff. Thank you very much. We have a guidebook and if you want to sell a guidebook to Poland and Hungary and Czech Republic and former Yugoslavia, you call it Eastern Europe because that's what Americans know because we divide Europe by the Iron Curtain because that's so fundamental to how we see it. There's free and communist Europe divided by the Iron Curtain and it's east and west. But of course, the people who live there, like you said, Poland is geographically the center of Europe, not Paris. And historically we were always very much to the west, but mentality placed us behind the Iron Curtain and that's why this is such a great place. So the EU is a pretty good thing considering your history. Well, exactly. You'll never be gobbled up by Germany or Russia again. Wow. We're getting a look at some of the ongoing topics that our European friends have been discussing lately right now on Travel with Rick Steves. Our panel includes Agnes Sieroka. She's a tour guide from Gdansk in Poland who started out showing the sights of Polish history to her elementary school students. Michael Dimpsie is a British tour guide who specializes in German language tours and destinations and also lives in a small town in the Italian Alps. And Holger Zimmer is a guide in Germany and across Europe and is a broadcast producer for RBB Public Broadcasting in Berlin. Now, when you think of the European currency, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. How do you build, how do you have a currency for 20 or however many countries use the EU? What do you put on it? Well, Poland, despite the fact we are members of European Union since 2004, we still use Polish currency. Oh, so you don't have to worry about that. Yes, we still use Polish laudies. But other countries do. And that's a challenge. It's just how does Europe get along together? Holger, what's your... You see what I'm trying to say? It's a trick to get 20 countries to give up a little of their sovereignty to do it. I mean, because Germany is the kind of... Typically, Germany will be right there and he'll take care of it. Yeah, but to be honest, to me the euro was like... Personally, really, it's a bad decision. Maybe it's like being that nostalgic, but I really thought our German mark was a good, very hard and healthy currency. And now we're kind of like... We're kind of floating in space with this uncertainty of those... All the different member states having very different economic power. And that is... More productivity. Absolutely. I mean, Germans would have a stronger currency because Germany is more productive. Has been yet, okay. Because of a number of things. But when everybody has the same currency, some people can freeload on that and some people weigh it down and some people boost it up, but it's more cumbersome, I think. It's a complicated thing. It is a complicated thing and it was a political project more than an economical need, really. I'm interested to talk in the next five or 10 years, you know, where we stand. What might happen with that? But does that threaten the European Union? I don't know. I think it's more the other way around. I think it's more like the political implications of that euro could actually be difficult affecting like, you know, the economy. What do you think the major accomplishment of the European Union has been? Of course, to sit down and say, listen, let's after hundreds and hundreds of years of bloody wars try to get together and work together. And that is a beautiful thing. And that's absolutely what I love. That overrides all the other things that you could make an excuse for the European Union because I think your economies are intertwined now where you can't really imagine going to war because a free trade zone is an important part of it. But you've also got that interwoven economies. But I think the idea of Europe for me personally really is like people getting together, working together and the whole idea of like the Schengen zone or like which is free kind of travel or free product goods traveling freely. I think that is for me would be secondary. The first thing is the idea of like Polish from Poland to Denmark to Spain, Italy finding common values and common ground. I think the visionaries who set Europe into motion were standing on the rubble of Europe in 1947. And they said twice in our lifetimes we've bombed ourselves and we've got to rebuild these cities. We've got to weave our economies together. We've got to create a European Union just so we don't go to war again. And it's been totally in that consideration you've got to celebrate the EU. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're looking at many of the political trends and big issues in the news in Europe lately. We're gaining perspectives on what people are talking about in Europe right now. Our guides are Agnes Rokob from Gdansk in Poland, Hogar Zimmer from Berlin in Germany, and Michael Dempsey who is a British man who lives in northern Italy. We have links to our guests with each show's notes and that's at ricksteves.com. Michael speaking of celebrating the EU, you guys took off Britain. Now Brexit is kind of old news now isn't it? What's the assessment now that it's gone? I was just in London and it seems like it wasn't as dire as people were predicting but what do you think? I think it's every bit as dire. If not more so than people were predicting. Again I'm not speaking only in terms of the economic impact which has been significant and detrimental but also in terms of how British people relate to the rest of the world and how their values and ideals are informed. But yeah look that's got to be based in peace, prosperity and predictability and Brexit has undermined all three of those things. I'm encouraged however to see that the British government right now are making approaches to the European Union in terms of something called the European defence pact as part of a coalition of the willing that is looking to deal with the clear and present danger from the east in the form of Vladimir Putin's Russia and the war in Ukraine. But Brexit did not threaten NATO and Europe's collective defence. Oh I absolutely think it did. It did huh? I think that's why it has also been demonstrated that Vladimir Putin was contributing to the Brexit campaigns. I mean that's been established. Isn't that something? There's evidence based claim. Putin is just like he's a busy little guy. Putin would be delighted if he was delighted by Brexit. He would be delighted by any damage or diminishing of the EU and there were British politicians who were wittingly or unwittingly colluding in that. I don't know. To me being an outsider of British politics I think correct me if I'm wrong but one of the issues that made Brexit happen was the idea that people said listen we'd rather want to let's say decide for ourselves how many and what kind of people we'd like to leave into our country and that is something that is an issue that is not just talked about in Germany. It's in France. It's in Italy. It's like the issue of immigration. The issue of immigration absolutely not just only like helping people in need but also at the same time what numbers can we actually take in and what kind of people are coming into our country and does it help us? As you said Agnes like contributing to the economy maybe or helping an aging population but also on the other hand how much of like really a benefit is it? And I see a lot of actually to be honest quite negative points of this 10 years of unhinged people coming in. We don't really know who they are once the story and that to me is an issue that we also need to talk about and I think that is something that... So there's a reality. You can have a big heart and say open the doors, bring these people in but you can also have a practical take on the consequences of that. In a minute we'll continue our discussion on the impacts of Britain's referendum to secede from the European Union. It passed by a 52% vote 10 years ago now. And we'll ask our guests what are the ideals they hold for the societies they live in. That's just ahead as we hear more of what people are talking about in Europe lately on travel with Rick Steves. We're touching on some of the topics you might hear people discussing in the cafes and town squares of Europe right now with three friends who are well versed in explaining things to the American visitors they guide on tours in Europe. Michael Dempsey is British, used to live in Berlin, now makes his home in a small town in the Italian Alps. Wogers-Hemmer is raising his family in Berlin and also produces arts programming for public radio there. And Agnes Siroga comes to us from Gdańsk in Poland. Keep in mind that while the news headlines keep changing at a dizzying pace lately, our discussion was recorded in February 2026. So it centers mostly on the longer term issues that the nations of Europe continue to face. Michael, just to finish up a little bit about Brexit. If I'm an English voter and I'm sort of assessing how Brexit has impacted my life now that it's quite established, what have the impacts been? Well, what we're talking about for a small majority now of British voters is regret. Now there will be others who we're talking a small majority over 50%. I think we feel somewhat isolated. Others will say, well, we have our sovereignty back. In terms of what that actually means, in terms of practical benefits, I'm sorry, I can't answer that question. I don't see any. So I don't think we give up sovereignty through participation in the EU or compromise it or diminish it anyway. I think we pool it and it is a confederation. I think you deploy your sovereignty in what is an economic, diplomatic, political, defence-driven, I don't know, kind of union. And we've now got no access to that. We have to pay effectively tariffs to trade with the EU. I mean, there is no more frictionless trade. There's a mountain of paperwork to do for people who want to trade with our biggest trading partner, which is the EU, I think the largest single market in the world. And yeah, again, in terms of national security, we no longer have the levels of cooperation that we used to. And that's why, yeah, I think the British government certainly are approaching an incremental return to the EU, at least in terms of alignment. Yeah. So they're softening the split as well as they can. Holger, I've been thinking about the ideals of America lately because people in the United States wonder, what makes America great? And we always say it's the ideals. And one of those ideals is pluralism. That's the idea that different groups can coexist with equal rights, sharing one country without forced conformity. Do the Germans have a sense of these kind of ideals that are just universal ideals or do they think of that as American ideals? Oh, interesting question. I would say that's maybe I really would like to get this question a bit broader because to me, I don't really consider myself Germany as only one entity. I think I would really rather go in the European way. If you talk about pluralism, pluralism for me means I do enjoy the fact that we have such a variety of cultures, traditions, food and everything. And that is part of my heritage too. You know, yes, I'm born in one country with this very special sort of like sausage and meat and whatever you, but I do, to me, the same thing. I love to go to Italy for food. I love to have tapas in Spain, you know, or go to Polish and have pierogi. So it's that is more what I think is like cherish that. And that's maybe reflected in the idea of like Europe, of the regions, like not so much like one big roof and everyone is the same. And, you know, but more like cherish the differences. Yeah, I'm just thinking when you talk about that, you said the word diversity. Wow. Diversity is a word that organizations in the United States are taking out of anything printed because you can lose funding if you even say the word diversity. The EU literally funds diversity. If you're representing a small ethnic group that isn't a big national organization, your state capital is not going to give you any money, but you go to Brussels and you'll get some money because that's diversity. That makes the menu more tasty. And you got the EU, you got fascism, you got what's going on in these angry right wing governments. And a lot of it is just, do you embrace diversity? Do you celebrate diversity or are you afraid of diversity? Agnes, when you think about us talking about these ideals, you've been under communism, you've been free now, you've seen what's going on in Ukraine. What are your thoughts about these ideals that we all strive for in Poland? You know, diversity was always part of our identity because Polish borders changed so many times and we had so many different nationalities and small groups speaking different languages. And after the Second World War, when borders were decided without any small culture consideration, and during communism times, these small ethnic groups were not able to speak their language. It was forbidden to have small cultural identity. Under the Soviet Union? Under the communism times. So after the change after 89, now after Poland joined European Union, that's why that's the great power of diversity and European Union is funding, as you said, small cultural identity can flourish. So if there's a, what's a region of Poland that might now? A region of pride. For example, I live in Poland and that's part of Pomerania. So as you said about Pomerania, see, I don't even, I know nothing about Pomerania. And let's make that clear. Pomeranian dogs do not origin from Pomerania, but it's for another group. That's all I know about Pomerania. OK. But talking about flags, we have European Union flag, we have Polish flag, we have flag of Gdańsk city, and we have flag of Pomerania as a regional flag. And they do speak different language that was forbidden during communism times. And even before that, the largest Jewish population I understand anywhere outside of the Holy Land, I guess, was in Poland. Yes. That was World War II. For centuries. For centuries in Europe. Exactly. The more you understand about the complexity of this, the more it's just boggling to think that Europe could get this together. I've read a couple books about the European Union and the Constitution and the idealism and it meets with reality sometimes and political reality and people's concerned about refugees. If you've got a small country of six million people and you're homogenous and you let in a million refugees, you're going to have some consequences and that you can't undo it. So it's a complicated thing, isn't it? Certainly complicated. Yeah. But what's simple is that, yeah, we kind of depend for a positive future upon a shared solidaristic sense of shared European identity. And I'm deeply concerned that the right in Europe that focuses on ethnic, if not even racial based nationalism is getting in the way of that. We're looking at political trends in Europe right now on travel with Rick Steves from a European perspective. Our guides are Holger Zimmer from Germany, Agnes Soroka from Poland and Michael Dempsey, a Brit who settled into a small town in Northern Italy. Lately, I've been thinking about how America impacts the world economically. We just, you know, our president knows that he can really bully people around with tariff policies. I'm wondering what the thought is in Europe on America's impact potentially to the economy. And if we can intimidate Europe into going our way with economic threats, must be kind of a strange place to be in Europe. Holger? Yeah, big time. And I think what Michael was saying earlier, the word like predictability, I think that is really what's kind of gone out of the window. And that's difficult, like ideology, like in terms of like, how is our friendship with the United States going? You know, and of course we can differentiate between people on the ground and the government. That's always a good thing to do. I mean, you know, think about Bellisconi or think about the Polish government or so it's always good to not equate the people and the country with the government, the current government. But when it comes to economy, I would say like we are really like in unstable times and you never really know what, what kind of the next move is that this is there's unpredictability coming from the United States, which really has so much power. Yeah. I think predictability is a foundation of economics, whether it's even if it's not the best as if it's predictable, at least you know what you're dealing with. So yeah, we're kind of in unstable times. And I think that's maybe that's what Michael also was saying. It makes Europe having come to terms to, to what are our solutions? You know, what are all our own answers to instabilities and threats? And personally, I'd rather think of Europe as an ideal sort of working together on many levels. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of like this idea of like a United States of Europe or something because I know what bureaucracy and really corruption looks like in Brussels and in the European Union. So I'd rather not have more of that because that's something I don't trust. I understand there's a lot of powerful lobbyists in Brussels. Big time. Absolutely. More than I would have liked to think. I thought, oh, I thought Europe was above that. But it's a lot of the laws are written by lobbyists, to be honest, in Brussels. And that's something that we have to really take into account. How is the economy in Germany just in general right now? Oh, I would say we're in pretty deep waters. Yeah. Not to. So it's actually we're, we're facing different with, with difficulties with energy policies that probably are, are not doing us very well that we did in the last couple of years. And also we have a really decline of car manufacturing and all the, the surrounding industries like those people who work for that. So at the moment, I actually see pretty bleak for German economy now. Michael, when you hear Hoger talking about the German economy, do you think, well, that's pretty much the same all over Europe? Or does it vary a lot from country to country? I think what excites me and what, what gives me a sense of hope is that the uses of adversity for the European Union rather than Great Britain in this instance, where there is a single market, of course, mean that we could make some progress. We've got a very, very small window, in my opinion, between the probable removal of Victor Orban from Hungary at the next election and the probable arrival of a French president from the far right thereafter. What we need is to do a lot more that takes us towards the United States of Europe to be able to centralize the mechanisms that enable us to become more competitive and more productive and all the rest. National governments can't do that anymore. Agnes, Michael was just talking about Orban being defeated, the Trump's favorite friend, the wannabe dictator or autocrat ruling Hungary, who's done a great job in rewiring that society to be not a democracy. What do you think the future is for your, for these kind of leaders? You've had that in Poland, but you pulled back from the brink. Well, and we came back to those waters again. Because, yeah, we've struggled with the right wing government, majority of our government, two terms. And again, an example of solidarity, because last fall, more Polish people decided to vote for, you know, to get the reed of the right wing part in the parliament that voted for solidarity in 89. So there was a great success. However, next year, presidential elections and Polish people decided to elect a right wing president, surprisingly. No, I expected that. A plurality or a majority? Majority. A majority. Well, this is Travel with Rick Steves. I'm joined by Michael Dempsey from Britain, Agnes Serocha from Poland and Holger Zimmer from Berlin in Germany. And we're talking about what Europeans are talking about right now in their news. You know, every country is dealing with these same dynamics and some of the same root concerns and they need to be addressed. I mean, half of the society is upset about something pretty bad to make those kind of compromises to embrace this sort of thing. I'm just wondering, what are the, we've got abortion, we've got gay rights, we've got refugees, climate change. What are some, what are the big culture war issues, Agnes, in Poland? Well, especially, well, gay rights. This is something that we put under the carpet, especially in the nation. And is relatively homophobic. Exactly. And around 90% of Poles are practicing Roman Catholic. So that is an issue. Catholic country and the most homophobic country. How about abortion? Is that a big issue in Poland? It is. It is an issue. So that's predictable and people will vote. I know people, you know, bless their hearts. They'll vote for abortion more than they'll vote for democracy. Well, there was a bill prepared to buy abortion several years ago at any circumstances. Next day, thousands of Polish women fled streets. So, and it was banned and stopped. Michael, I think Ireland has a lot of these Catholic related culture war issues that they've struggled with over the decades. What's about, how about Britain? What are the big issues that divide people? So I think a lot of it's manufactured by right wing media, but there has been a big focus on writer JK Rowling and the trans issue. So trans, that would be a classic example to me of a culture war issue. Sure. Absolutely. There's three trans athletes on girls basketball courts in an entire country and people vote on that basic thing. I think that's diminishing. I think the intensity of the culture war is kind of diminishing because it's emotionally rather than rationally led and people can only hold an anger for so long or hold an outrage at the same time. At the same time, we do actually have bigger stuff for the 24 hour news cycle to worry about. So I think that's that's diminished somewhat, but there's a residue of intolerance. There's a residue of dissatisfaction, a discontent disgruntled voters who seek then to express themselves emotionally at the ballot box and reform profit from that. This is Travel to Rick Steves. We've been talking with three European friends, Michael Dempsey from Britain, Agnes Schroeder from Poland and Hoger Zimmer from Germany. And we're talking about what they're talking about in Europe. And a lot of Americans, when they travel, they want to join the conversation. So to wrap up our conversation, I just I would love one tip from each of you on advice for an American tourist if they want in your country to get into a good conversation about some of the things we've been talking about right now. Would they be welcome and how would they they find that, Michael? So I would keep it nonpartisan. And I would kind of say, so where were you 10 years ago in your sort of daily life in terms of how does that compare to where you are now in your daily life? So I would say, OK, let's say it's 2026. Now, how were things back in 2016 for you compared to today? That'd be a good way to. Yeah. Can I buy you a beer? Yeah, yeah. Agnes. Talking about beer. Well, I think always common ground is food, food, drinks. That helps to break the ice and get deeper into other issues. But first, come out of your bubble. Be friendly. Assume you're interesting. Sit down in a bar and remember, get into a conversation. I mean, I think we are. It's fair to assume that we'd be an interesting person to talk to from anybody in Europe, giving what's going on in the world right now. Holger, any advice? Yeah, I think like for a German, but maybe also even European point, like we love to talk politics. We love to like bring it on like exchange arguments and, you know, maybe go into like a nice little debate, but still, you know, agree to disagree. And maybe I like the idea of going back like what you know, 2016, what you just said, Michael, but I also would say like maybe you can open the discussion to say like, hey, what are your dreams? What are your aspirations for like the future? And figuring out what maybe what troubles us both. Like, you know, if we're talking about Americans and Europeans, like, you know, what are your qualms and your things, you know, then we figure it out that maybe we can find common solutions, even though we might have different ideas politically or socially. But we might find out that the bottom line is, hey, we all want the same thing and we'd be happy to work together if we just get rid of those like ideological, what's the word, choy club in English like blinders. Well, you guys, I'm inspired by this conversation. When I go to Europe, we've got a lot of things to explain. And so do Europeans. And we can all sit down and learn from each other because we're all struggling with basically the same issues. That's kind of what my takeaway is. None of us have it perfect. We've all got struggles and we're all within our own countries. We're in the same boat. And beyond that, we're still in the same boat because of this amazing, ever smaller world that we get to call home. Hogers-Emer, Agnes Shrioka and Michael Dimsey. Thank you very much. Thank you, Rick. Thank you. Thank you. Let's get together and feel all right. Travel with Rick Steves as produced at Rick Steves, Europe and Edmunds, Washington by Tim Tatton, Kazemura Hall and Donna Bardsley. You can find links to our guests, listen to a podcast version of the show and search the archives at ricksteves.com. Slash radio will look for you again next week with more travel with Rick Steves. Hey, I'm Rick Steves. I teach Europe TV shows, guidebooks and bus tours. And I wrote a book called Travel as a Political Act as well, because I've learned that the very best souvenir is a broader perspective. You can broaden yours by watching my travel specials. TV shows on Iran, Palestine, Israel, the story of fascism in Europe. That'll blow you away. And hunger and hope, lessons learned in Ethiopia and Guatemala. I've got shows ranging from Martin Luther in the Reformation all the way to Cuba. I love how 1400 years ago, Muhammad said, don't tell me how educated you are. Tell me how much you've traveled. You can stream these shows and many more for free at ricksteves.com.