Scouting NFL Free Agents With Matt Bowen | Hoge & Jahns

what's up welcome in hogan johns back with you presented by old national bank every play matters whether it's on the field or in your financial life the best teams win by delivering excellence at every level old national bank where relationships and results matter remember fdic C. Welcome in Johnsy. We got a big show. I've been excited about this pretty much all weekend. Well, it's good to be here. I survived the show in studio with Greg Braggs Jr. So it's good to see you. Survives a good word. I'm kidding. It was good. He did a fine job. I thought he did an outstanding job. You did the Braggs Chris Emma's sandwich. Yeah. It's a bold place to be. You have to describe it like that. Yes. That was the seating arrangement. You were in the middle of them. I thought it was a good show. Good job. Thank you. Thank you. People want to check that out. They can from Monday's episode of CHCO Bears. We'll be back at it on CHCO later today as well. But right now we are live on YouTube here on Hogan Johns. Thank you for being here. Thank you for watching or listening later as a podcast. Appreciate all of you. Good morning. We got a big show for you today. Excited about this one because the combine is coming up next week. And as much as the combine, of course, is about the draft and prospects, and measuring measurements and measuring measurements. Yeah. Yeah. All this stuff, hand length. It is also really to me, the kickoff of free agency, because a lot of the groundwork for free agency is done in Indianapolis with all of the general managers and head coaches, everybody all there for what is really more of an NFL convention rather than an NFL scouting combine. That's a little bit of everything. So I think it's time to talk some free agency, isn't it, Johnsy? Let's do it. Matt Bowen, of course, does a great job. Chicago area forever. High school football coach. He just dropped his top 50. Well, he had his top 50 free agents, and now he's got his best fits for those top 50 free agents. This story just dropped this morning, So it's a great day to have him on and talk about which ones fit best for the Chicago bears. As we bring in ESPN analyst, Matt Bowen to Hogan Johns. Once again, what's going on, Matt? What's going on guys. Thanks for having me. When are you headed down to Indianapolis? Next week. Probably head out on Tuesday. You know, for us, it's easy. We get to drive, right? So I drive down on Tuesday. I usually go Tuesday to Thursday. Probably get in contact with the, obviously people I work with at ESPN, but also see some coaches and scouts and i'm getting older now guys i'm almost i'll be 50 next year so a lot of the coaches i played for are not still in the game but some of them are and especially some of the position coaches i played for it's always good to catch up with them and and adam you know this now as a high school coach i go down there to steal right yeah coaches get some ideas what are you guys doing on coverage and i start to think can i do this at the high school level some of it you cannot obviously but some you can and really it's more about the teaching aspect it's one thing to have scheme and to have someone teach you how they play quarters or cover two but really the fundamentals and the technique that goes into developing the athlete is what i look forward to talking about yeah it's one of my favorite weeks of the year because you can just really you can hit a little bit of everything along the way you can you know get the meetings you need to have uh as you said even just hey what can i learn to take back to the to the high school level you can knock out all the nfl draft information you need just catch up with people that you work with um and of course you start to hear these whispers on free agents and who might fit with what team which teams are already interested in certain players um so i'm excited to jump in with this uh with you today i mean first of all um great piece i can't imagine the amount of work it goes into looking at just the top 50 free agents that that are out there i I mean, this is why NFL teams have hold departments that handle this all year long with their personnel, their pro personnel departments. So we appreciate the work you put into it. And now we want to talk a little bit about who you think fits for the Bears. You mentioned a specific safety, the position you played. So we'll get to that in a second. But everybody is curious about edge rusher. So I want to I want to start there. And number one on your list is Trey Hendrickson, who you like as a good fit for the Indianapolis Colts. How do you feel like Trey Hendrickson or maybe some of these other guys that are out there, like a Cam Jordan, Cleo Mack, Marcus Davenport, really any of these guys, would any of them be a good fit for the Bears and what they need when you obviously watch a ton of Bears football, where their deficiencies are on the edge? Yeah, I would mention Jalen Phillips, too, who's finished the year in Philly after the trade from Miami. I had him in my top 10. You know, Bowie Maffey from Seattle is another one to look at just because of the skills and traits. That's the first thing you do is obviously, just like you guys were talking about in the intro with the NFL combine, the height, weight, and speed, the traits, they do matter. That's part of this process. And Adam, to your point, putting this together as a top 50, I'll get to my top 100. Right after the combine, I'll have my top 100 on. When you do your best fits, what are you looking for, right? You're looking for one, the player traits, the team needs, the scheme, the fit, the scheme. And is there a coaching connection? Right. A lot of that, if you look through my piece or, you know, I go back to when I played my last year in the league, I went to Buffalo bills because my DB coach was there. Right. Someone who I played for in Washington, there was a connection there. I felt comfortable going there. So that's part of this process as well. And ultimately the thing I cannot predict is the money. Right. Right. And that's a big part of free agency. so I'm sure everyone on social media agrees with all my top 50 oh um creating fits and uh I've already looked through some of the comments they do not agree but that's okay oh I got one omission I'm gonna bring up don't worry but this is this is an exercise where I focus on those key kind of foundational pillars to do it you mentioned Trey Hendrickson would he be a fit in Chicago absolutely he would absolutely I might like him in Indianapolis too I think Indianapolis when look at the kind of the arc of their roster right now more of a win now mode okay with gm chris ballard used to be in chicago you know they went out and got sauce gardener last year they're capable of making splash moves not that the bears aren't we saw what the bears did in free agency last year you think about trey henderson and dennis allen's defense and those four man fronts one the effort level is outstanding i use the term second reaction sex that means someone who makes plays late in the down because they have that motor they have that effort and they continue to rush to the quarterback you know with in dennis allen's defense a lot of twists a lot of stunts they'll use multiple fronts to scheme one-on-one matches but it's really the the stunting that i think trey hendrickson would be excellent at whether looping inside or getting that vertical push up the field um and he has a history of production right and now you're all talking about an older player and that's one thing about free agency when you put this list together you know you have to look at the ages are the guys in their prime years are they at the end of their careers how much time do they have left can you get high level production from Trey Henderson for the next two years, I believe you can. After that, I can't guarantee anything. But you're talking about the next two seasons. Yes, that would someone, if I'm in management with the Chicago Bears that I'm having a discussion about this week and heading into the combine because that's someone you can target to make your defense better. So Khalil Mack, obviously a former Chicago Bear, wants to be on a winning team, I would imagine at this point in his career, coming off injury. But he's your 22nd overall player on your list currently. what does he have left? I'm sure there's some interest from a lot of teams just because of his resume, but what are you seeing on film from Khalil Mack? Well, I have a good point. He did have the elbow injury early in the season, but he did come back from that injury. It was, I thought, very productive over the second half of the season. Khalil Mack's an older player. Everyone understands that. When did the Bears trade for him? Was that 2018? 2018. 2018. So now we're talking some years, right? We understand that. I think if you brought in Khalil Mack, guys, he would have to be a situational rusher for you. Look, you pay for that. You pay for someone to hit the quarterback on third downs. We understand that, right? But I don't think he's going to give you, you know, 40, 50 plus snaps a game at this point. I just don't think that. But there's still value there because he is still so powerful. His technique is upper tier in terms of how he sets a path to attack the quarterback. And I still think he plays with excellent energy on the field. And overall, he's throughout his career and even, you know, the second half of last season, he is a disruptive player. And look, some guys are not. I was not a disruptive player. I was an alignment assignment guy. Some guys who played the defensive end position are physical and tough, but they don't have high-end, you know, quarterback production in terms of hitting the quarterback. Khalil Mack does have that. So if you're looking for Mack even later in his career in Chicago, he would be someone that would play for you in your sub packages and in critical down the distances. so the uh the one free agent that you did target to the bears in here a very interesting name um number 41 on the list cam curl safety from the los angeles rams who of course picked off caleb williams um in the playoff game uh if memory serves though this would not be the first uh addition in the secondary the bears have made of a corner that killed them in a playoff game because didn't kelvin hayden have that big interception in the super bowl and then he ended up coming back and playing for the bears a few years later so what do you like about cam curl uh at this spot and uh his fit in the bears defense well with cam curl one he's an interchangeable safety what i mean by that is he can play free safety he plays strong safety You know, he can get to depth and cover too. He can spin to the post. Not a true post safety in terms of elite range, like a Kirby Joseph in Detroit. We understand that. But someone that can play over the top. And I think he's an excellent run defender. I think he's got really good forward ability. I mean, forward ability, the ball is in front of you when you're in the deep half or in your quarters and you're breaking downhill with some urgency and with some speed. You see that consistently on his tape. And I think an excellent run defender. Something to improve the Bears' run defense. What is something that needs to be discussed offseason? Now, Cam Curl is not a high-level playmaker. He is not. He does not make a ton of plays in the football. But he doesn't give up plays either. So you have to look at that and say, well, if I can get a safety, alignment and assignment perfect, very tough, very physical, brings an edge to my defense, does not give up explosive plays, helps me in the run game. Well, that's someone I'm looking to target, right? Especially when you're the Bears now and you have two open spots with both Brisker and Bayard heading to free agency. Now, could there be a situation I kind of like where you bring in a cam curl and you re-sign Kevin Byard? Because then I think you have two interchangeable safeties. You have the high-level communicator in Byard, someone who showed much more reigns this past season in Dennis Allen's defense because he is such high level in terms of his football intelligence. And someone in Byard who made a lot of plays in the football this year, right? So I think those two would complement each other very well. But there's other safeties. I mean, Brian Cook from Kansas City is a free agent. Reed Blankenship from Philadelphia, Colby Bryant from the Seahawks, Jalen Thompson from Arizona. I think you could look at, and look, when I get to my top 100, I bet there's at least 10 or 11 safeties in there. And that's just how free agency works. You know, when you're a safety in this league, I'm not saying it's a replaceable position because it's not, because it is very valuable. But a lot of guys hit free agency and a lot of teams are willing to let them hit free agency. and that's just the nature of i've been doing this the top 100 free agents for espn for the last five years and it's always very safety heavy so if you're a team like the bears you will have options in terms of what you like and what fits and dennis allen's defense so uh that that's where i wanted to go here because i i thought it was interesting you have jaquan brisker then just a few spots behind cam curl at number 44 and you do not have kevin Byard on the top 50, which was the omission I was, I was referring to earlier. I'm assuming that just has to do with the age of Byard, but because I have so much respect for your football opinion, Matt, this, I, this, I find this super interesting because I imagine there's a lot of other teams that have a similar thought as you do in terms of the age. And to me, just even seeing you, I know you know how good Kevin Byard is and you even referenced in here. It'd make a lot of sense to bring him back. The fact you don't have him in the top 50 to me, just off the top of my head, I'm like, well, that would probably increase the likelihood that he will resign with the bears in my opinion, because I don't, maybe his market out there isn't what you might think it would be after leading the league in interceptions again. No, it's a great point. And I, and I really went back and forth on that. So in my original top 50, I have my next five out, right. And Byard's in that list. So he's going to be in my top 55 when this top 100 comes out. And I went back and forth on it because, one, you know, it's a great discussion. We're just talking about Khalil Mack, who's in his, you know, has put a lot of the years in the league. But two things with safety. One, positional value, right? Age and play speed. That's what I look at. Okay? So positional value is going to hurt Byard. It hurts Briscoe. All these guys have moved down quite a bit. I mean, my top safety, I think Brian Cook was at number 25, right? um also i thought that byard even though you know if you look at the tape over the last couple years there is a little decline in play speed that's that's natural though when you get up you know in past 10 years in the league you know you're playing a long time play speed naturally declines but like i said when we were just talking about him the range improved this year okay there's something about the fit with da's defense right there's something about the fit that allows him to put himself in a position to make plays in the football, right? Now, does that mean it works, let's say, for the Colts or for the Bengals? Do you get the same level of production there in a different scheme with a different coach? I don't know that. So that's why I have Byard a little lower. And there's a discussion to be had on Brisker too, because Brisker is a younger player, but someone who's had concussion issues. That has to be discussed when you have your free agent meeting, right? So that's why I have him a little lower than comparable to Reed Blankenship or, you know, a Brian cook. You mentioned that like every year you see safeties like they they kind of fill up your list Like why do you think that is And then if you the bears without a single safety under contract like how do you balance targeting that position with your potential options in the draft specifically at number 25, where I think there could be some very good safeties available. Right. Well, I think Adam, what the safety position is there are certain types of safeties, right? If you have elite post range, I don't think you hit free agency. if you have the ability to cover down the slot consistently, I don't think you hit free agency very often, which you see with a lot of these safeties are, they can play in split field coverages. They're tough. They're physical. They can spin down and play in the run front. They're not elite playmakers in terms of their on the ball production. So I think that's why you see a lot of safeties who are very good football players, what you need on your roster to win games and Sundays where you need your defensive backroom, especially the veteran players. They also help you on special teams, but if you don't have those traits that separate you in terms of man coverage, postability, or, you know, elite playmaking talent, I think that you get into this grouping, right? Where you're not, again, I don't like to use the term replaceable, but teams are looking for more. So before we switch over to offense, I want to stick on a couple of our defensive positions because it is entirely possible the Bears decide to move on from Tremaine Edmonds just for cap purposes. I've been screaming since I feel like October about how they have to get faster on defense. So play speed is, I think, got to be a big conversation with anybody who they sign. So now there's one, there's, I'm just wondering if you have any linebacker replacements that would make sense if they were to move on from Tremaine Edmonds. One name that popped up on your list that has a connection to Dennis Allen because he was there when they drafted him in New Orleans is Alex Anzalone, who's been playing for the Lions in recent years. And then I don't know if Leo Chanel would quite be the same scheme fit, but I'm curious. Those are just a couple names from your list that popped up in my mind going through it. Yeah, Anzalone is, I would say, when you're looking at his tape and you watch how he plays, he looks like a pro, right? very tough very smart keys to run extremely fast can be productive in the pass game in terms of dropping in zone coverage matching and carrying underneath and to your point in Dennis Allen's defense you can scheme him as a pass rusher really that's a blitzer right we're not talking about a true pass for but someone that can walk up into the front can be a part of an inside stunt or somebody you can just blitz from the second level uh Chanel is interesting I'm glad you brought him up Adam because you know I look at what Spags did with him in Kansas City and obviously Spags defense there's some similarities with with dennis allen's in terms of what they do from you know their coverage foundations but their linebackers they do a lot of things and chanel played in the front a lot he's got second level range he can track the ball in the run game um would he be a fit maybe he would you know but i think you'd have to scheme him specifically to his trace and one name you did not mention who has high-end traits is quay walker from green bay quay walker is a free agent heading in the free agency you talk about someone has the second level range the run and hit traits someone that can blitz someone that played much better versus the run this year than he did in past years with green bay is quay walker so i think adam would you it would come down to what do the bears want right do they want someone in the middle of their deepness that fits in what they want to do from a scheme perspective or are they going to take someone like Quay Walker, who has all the traits, and say we can make him work in our scheme? Now, Deshaun Wright is number 37 on your list. He was one of the Bears' best playmakers this season. But I'm curious, what did you make of him in coverage? You look at pro football reference and the coverage numbers aren't very good, but the turnover production was outstanding. Like, what do you foresee in his future? I know you don't have them returning to the Bears on your list. Right. I'm going to the Giants because I think they need playmakers. And to your point, Adam, yes, you're paying for consistency and coverage, right? But ultimately, with Wright, you're paying for someone that takes football away, right? And that gets you paid in free agency. It just does. You know, the on-the-ball production matters. Now, I don't think Wright has excellent top-end speed. I think he doesn't have excellent recovery speed. And you've seen that this past season. I think sometimes at the top of the route, he gets disconnected, you know, and look, I've played with guys who are playmakers and what happens with their eyes, right? Where do their eyes go? They go back to the quarterback. They're always looking to make a play in the football. That's understandable. So you have to live with the good and the bad at times, right? But I think he will have heavy interest in free agency because he made so many plays last season. Plus he's got the length. He's got some of the physical tools you really want at that position. you look at the Giants their new coordinator Denard Wilson Denard played with me in Washington um you know learning to Greg Williams they want to pressure they want to play man covers they want to play cover two well right fits all that because he has the length of play press we saw in Chicago a lot of cover two this past season we can jam and sink and try to bait the quarterback in that outside window and I think he's a willing run defender okay and that's the one thing about corners as everyone says you know and you guys are younger but you don't have to be steve atwater okay he just you don't have to be cam chancellor as a corner you have to get the ball carrier on the ground be willing to tackle him i don't care what it looks like i really don't is he down so we can go on to the next player now right i think right is a willing tackler says he need improvement sure you can work with him you can coach him up during drills and all that stuff that we talk about his coaches, but is he willing to do it? If they're willing to do something as an athlete, you can coach and you can improve. Well, it will be interesting to see what the Bears do at corner. If they do lose to Sean Wright, Tyreek Stevenson's going into a huge contract here. Obviously, Jalen Johnson coming off the injury. You mentioned Elante Taylor. He's number 12 on your list. You have the best fit being the Rams, but you also mentioned the Bears and the Raiders being good fits, too. What do you like about that possibility for Alante Taylor coming over from the Saints? Well, obviously he understands the system, right? He knows the system. He can walk in day one, understand the terminology, has the coaching connection like I talked about at the top, and that's a big part of free agency, but a very urgent and versatile defender. You know, Taylor can play on the boundary, in coverage. He can play in the slot. He can pressure. He can tackle in space. More of a ball disruptor than playmaker. And what I mean by that is someone who has a lot of passes broken up, right? And not a lot of interceptions. Okay, so that has to be discussed, too, when you're talking about the price you're going to pay to sign him. But Taylor would be a fit, there's no question. You know, and he can play on the outside. You know, the thing about the Bears' corners this year was that I don't think Jalen ever got going, right? And it's a good teaching point for any level of football, that if you miss training camp, if you miss the preseason, If you're not practicing at top speed, it's really hard to just suddenly come on the game field and be the same player you were. I think we all would all agree that Jalen Johnson, while he played good football at times this year, wasn't up to his standard, right? And that's because of the injury. That's all it is. He's not losing talent. He's not losing speed. And, you know, the way NFL practices are structured now, you're not hitting during the season. You're not playing at top speed. And just to throw someone out there. It's one thing if you're playing guard, no disrespect to a guard, right? But it's not, you know, it's not high-level collisions. It's not a top speed. If you're playing on the island out there and you haven't been through practice, you haven't been through those days in August where your body feels like it's going to shut down, then your body's just not ready to play. And I think we saw that at times with him this year. But with a full offseason, healthy offseason, you still have a top tier one at the quarterback position with Jalen Johnson. one one last defensive question for you and this is kind of a an editorial question too like when like a Bradley Chubb gets released and I'm sure your article is like already well into the editorial process like what's your response to that where would he fit in um on your list if you updated it today and I guess like would he be a fit for the Bears I know he just played in a 340 fence but he's still Bradley Chubb but like what's your take on that okay from the editorial process there's nothing I could do about today right I know that feeling right now you could go back and do that right I could call my editor right now and say look we need to put Chubb in there um you know I go back and again I'm old and you guys but when I work for the Chicago Tribune once it was published man hey nothing you could do so um but no he will be in my when I release my top 100 he will be in in that column for sure and that's what i'll do over the next couple weeks and you know when someone gets released and now adam once that's published and someone gets released then he that player has to go in so i mean someone has to fall out right if it's a high-end player that gets cut then we will make adjustments from an editorial perspective to put them in there but bradley chubb could he rush the pass from the edge absolutely again and remember with with dennis Allen. I'm not saying this is has to be 100% all the time, but look at the physical profile of his defensive ends during his time in New Orleans. You know, someone like a Montez Sweat. Okay. So you're looking for players with that type of physical profile. It doesn't mean they have to be. It doesn't mean you can't convert an outside linebacker to an edge rusher, right? Doesn't mean they have to do that. But historically, the physical profile has mattered to Dennis Allen. Yeah. And quickly, like, does Cam Jordan still have something left in the tank there? It'd be interesting. Would they, you know, that's someone, a name to keep an eye on, again, because the coaching connection, especially later in free agency, Cam Jordan is not going to be a day one free agent signing. We understand that. But some of that I've always, you know, I was never in that position. I always thought it'd be really cool to be like a 10 year vet and say, no, I'm not coming to camp, man. Oh, yeah. I'll be there week one. Yeah. Yeah, you sign up. You sign like August 15th or something. Right after they ended the big long grind the first few weeks of camp. Get two weeks of practice in and go. But now Cam Jordan at this stage, again, situational rusher. Something that can help the Bears. But, yeah, it's an interesting name. And I think that's going to be the fun part about free agency because you released the top 50, right? There's 50 more players that put in this thing. And I haven't gone through all of them yet. But I think the fan base has to understand that if you're not spending a ton of money on day one of free agency, it's okay. The Bears have done that in the past. We know that. But you can get, and I don't have the list in front of me, but you can get quality safeties, you know, midweek of free agency. You're going to find quality football players, especially veteran guys that can sign to a shorter term deal that can help you win next football season. I'm gonna throw one more defensive guy at you uh because one of our our viewers that's always in the in the chat live Eric Bochanton asked about this earlier N'Kobe Dean um especially because you have him on your list here and it's and when I read this I was like oh that's scary because we're talking about a blitzing linebacker and you got him you love the fit for Minnesota and Brian Flores and I'm already picturing him being a big problem in the NFC North next year Well, N'Kobe Dean, I do this piece every year. It's like my top 100 traits or skills in the NFL, right? And it's like the most accurate thrower, the most powerful, you know, blocker, stuff like that. You know, you go through the whole list. One of them is the best blitzer. And I had N'Kobe Dean on there. Because if you're a running back in protection, and he has a runway to start, you know, from about eight yards from your alignment, you better be ready to get your pads down. I mean, he is physical. He is urgent. He had the knee injury, but you saw this past year when he came back from the knee injury, but really, really good football. Coaching a big fan, Joe, you know, high level college coaching. Someone that can play as a downhill, you know, box defender, run defender, but also has enough juice to get to the edges of the formation and track the ball laterally. And from coverage perspective, yeah, he's in a drop in coverage. He'll be your middle hook, your zone defender underneath. but could the bears look at him? Absolutely. And we're talking about Minnesota, Minnesota really has cap issues right now. That's the tough part about doing this piece too, because I have a lot of players to teams that have a lot of money and did not have good seasons. You know, you look at the Raiders, look at the Titans, you look at Washington, the New York jets, obviously have a ton of money to spend. So what could a team like Minnesota make it work? Yeah. We all know the cap, they can make it work. But I do like the fit with Flores, But again, for Chicago in the middle of that defense, I'd like to see that too. If you're the Bears and you have four of the five spots up front, like offensively set, you have some questions about Ozzy Chapillo's future because of his torn patellar tendon. Kron Amagaji, he hasn't stayed healthy. Braxton Jones, he's a free agent. Theo Benedict, the undrafted free agent from the University of British Columbia not too long ago. Like what free agents would interest you if you're the Chicago bears? Like we had AQ Shipley on our show from, from the super bowl. And he's like, if I had to, to do this for the Chicago bears, I would take the, the veteran free agent left tackle over drafting a rookie, especially early on in the draft. Like, what do you think the bear should do? That's a great, great question. Cause Trapillo obviously has the knee injury and with the patella you know, I'm not a doctor, but just being around guys who have had that injury, you know, it's similar to an ACL rehab. So you're talking around eight months, maybe longer. Could he be back for this next season? Sure. Maybe not in September. We understand that. But maybe at some point in their season, yes. But then you get into the same discussion we had before with Jalen Johnson, someone who didn't practice, didn't go through camp, which can create some question marks in terms of what type of level of production you're going to get. I think Benedict is a quality backup. I think that's what he grades out. is. It's somebody you want in your roster, but that's what he is, a quality backup. You know, the one tackle I have out there is going to get paid. You know, that's Rasheed, you know, Rasheed Walker from Green Bay, you know, and he's a left tackle. He's in my top 10. And when you are a free agent left tackle in this business, you're going to get paid a lot. I don't know if the Bears go to that point and say, we're going to, because you are going to overpay, right? That's part of free agency, especially that top 10, you are going to overpay. I don't think the Bears would do that. I haven gotten to the rest of the tackles yet Adam but like we talked about there will be opportunities for the Bears to go get a left tackle and free agency And again it might be on a two to three deal It could be a one year deal but there will be veteran players out there to acquire. So what I would do if on the bears is I would go after a veteran left tackle and draft attack. Cause I think you have to go for someone that can play now. And you have to always think about roster construction and development. And one thing I'll say here is, and you know, Trapillo did play good football at times for the Bears this year. With rookie players, you cannot expect immediate results. I think we saw that this past season, and you see it every season. You know, pass rushers in the NFL, the young players, usually you'll see more development the second half of the season, right? But some guys you don't see to the second year, and it's hard to put a young player out there, especially at the left side in this division against the pass rushers they have to go against and expect immediate results. So that's why I would bring in a veteran. and from a coaching perspective i don't think there's anything wrong especially with ben johnson the way they had their camp last year which was more physical than more teams is having daily competition you're not trying to make people happy in this league you're trying to find out who the best player is i mean you don't care about people's feelings you don't i've been through it i've been cut three times no one cares it's i want the best football player in the field right and from a coaching perspective that's what i'm gonna do every day in practice try to get the best player in the field, especially at a key position like that. Because if you hit at the left tackle position, you're not talking about the Bears as having one of the best offensive lines. You're talking about them having the best offensive line in the National Football League. And that's what they would be if they found a quality left tackle that could play at a high level that was on a track to eventually be a Pro Bowl player. Now you're talking about the best offensive line in football, paired with Ben Johnson, who was a top five play caller, paired with the offensive balance they have, and paired with what you saw from Caleb this year. Because Caleb this year, you cannot watch Bears football this year and tell me that Caleb Williams did not develop at a high rate because he did. He developed as a high rate as a thrower in terms of pocket mechanics, his eyes from the pocket. And more importantly, find a player that made as many plays that he did in critical moments of football games to win. So you have a lot of foundational pieces here to build around. So hold that Caleb thought for just one second because I want to circle back on that. But with everything you just mentioned in terms of not caring about feelings, foundational pieces, I just feel like Ben on offense is always going to be, if he can find a small upgrade here and there, he's going to take it seriously. So I want to bring up running back real quick because I think, look, I think the DeAndre Swift match, repairing, let's call it, because they were together in Detroit, went pretty well last year. However, I, we, we do have the evidence of what they did in Detroit that, you know, if there's a Jameer Gibbs out there, they're not afraid. He's not going to be afraid to go upgrade and get somebody super special. Is there any, are there, we'll set the draft aside. Are there any upgrades in free agency in your mind? You have a couple of running backs on your list. Travis ETN's name is one that's sort of come up a couple of times in connection with the bears. is that worth exploring or do you stick with swift i think everything's worth exploring i think you have to discuss all these players in your free agent meetings and say to your point adam are we getting better here because if you are you have to have that discussion okay travis etn um dual threat traits you know a slasher in the run game has home run ability i think the upgrade there is the overall pass game impact and what he can do as a receiver over swift not that swift's a poor receiver he's not and to your point adam i think bears fans in general have found more appreciation for deandre swift this year because of how hard he played what he did for this football team made a lot of plays um you know you know rico dottle i don't think it's the right compliment you know look going through the list you're talking about his pairing with one guy right both downhill physical and decisive runners you want someone if you're going to replace swift who has that dual threat impact as a receiver you know davante williams is on that list you know when you talk about him as a pass catch look davante had a great season in dallas i think he looked explosive again he had that north south power but when you talk about him as a receiver it's what is it it's more screens checkdowns and swings which are valuable to your offense but if i'm the bears i want some that creates matchup issues for my office in the past game that's to your point travis etn is breese hall is also out there as well you know breese hall was my top running back on the list because Brees Hall can run with power. He can run with finesse. He can run with patience. He has home run ability in both the run and the pass game. And I think when you watch him play, when he's healthy, which he is again, he can be a difference maker. Okay, you started talking about Caleb Williams there a little bit. And, yes, we would both agree with you. The highlights and the most crucial of moments in games was something else. but what would you like to see from him in year three? Like if you're making a checklist for his development, what is on it? More consistency and rhythm as a passer. I think, you know, Ben does a great job and all the top coaches do. Shanahan, McVay, LaFleur, you're talking about the top play callers, getting their quarterbacks to throw on rhythm, right? They can do it through play action. When you hit that back foot, the ball's out, right? You know where you're going with the football. You can see the coverage rotation. You read your conflict defender and you drive the football. We saw that a lot from Caleb, but I think more rhythm, more consistency. And that also includes ball location, right? I think at times Caleb can be more mechanically sound in the pocket, even though he showed development this year, more mechanically sound, especially on deep out breaking routes. You know, when Caleb throws the deep out of the deep corner route, I call it the seven route. This sounds very simple, but sometimes you have to aim smaller, right? Aim smaller, you throw smaller, right? And I think those outside the numbers throws, he can be more accurate in terms of his ball location. But to me, it's just the playing on rhythm. Because if you get Caleb to play on rhythm at a higher rate, then this offense has so many opportunities. Because that doesn't include what he can do outside of structure. This is all about playing the quarterback position in terms of in the pocket, seeing my read, getting the ball in the time, and throwing it with precise accuracy, precise location. When he does that at a higher rate, now you're talking about someone that can be an all-pro player. That's what he can be. because he has the highlight plays off of that. He has the plays that, from a coaching perspective, I can't teach. And Adam, you know, you can't go down to any high school field in Illinois right now and say, throw the ball like Caleb. Okay, Coach, what does that mean? You know, they can't do it, right? Because he has the arm talent. He has all the traits we talk about when he's outside of structure. Now you pair that with Ben Johnson's offense, which is a big part of this, and Ben Johnson's coaching, which I think you saw this year that Caleb was coached hard. And that's what the best players want. They want to be coached hard. They want to be held accountable. They want their coach to tell them everything they're doing from a negative perspective so they can grow at the position. I think you saw tremendous growth from Caleb this year. And that's a part of Ben Johnson, but also part of this offense and what it creates with all the formation of versatility, the motion, the movement. I go back to the game against Philadelphia. That was my favorite tape from the bears this year, one the run and the past game, but how they utilize the tight ends in Chicago, how valuable they are. love them and commit to this offense and plus the receiving talent they have on the outside. I mean, this is a team that has, I think I put that Adam that piece, we're talking about the super bowl that has all those foundational pillars on offense outside of left tackle, which we're just talking about. That's as close as you can get right now. So there should be incredibly high expectations for the bears offense and for Caleb Williams going into his third pro season, because now when he gets back to house hall in the off season, it's not learning new terminology, right? It's not watching tape of the Detroit Lions, right? Because that's probably what they watched last year in Ben Johnson's office. Now you're sitting in those meeting rooms, you're self-scouting yourself. You're seeing how different coordinators around the league played against you and what they took advantage of, what they exposed. So this Bears team in general should be much more prepared. Remember, we go back to the beginning of the season, it was an 0-2 start, right? The loss to Minnesota was a bad loss. In the Detroit game, they didn't compete. You look and you're sitting there like, man, this is 0-2. this is not good and look what they did when they finally started picking up the offense having more experience with the offense and now you have a full season of games to look at in the study and say this is what we need to do this what we need to improve it should be a much different offseason and you do have high expectations because i i saw that early prediction bears over bills in the Super Bowl um so you I imagine if you're going with that you are definitely thinking that Caleb continues to make another jump going into year three and year two with Ben Johnson right and let's be honest um when you're asked to make a Super Bowl prediction in in early February right um there's a lot of things have to happen right but it's part of the job you say yes and you do it so um a couple things here one I picked the Bears the things we just talked about the offense but it's also put in there there you know if the bears had a pass rusher right a couple pass rushers how they address the safety position is a big part of this discussion right um to your point adam what they do with the second level defense if they make a move at the linebacker position and on the perimeter to your corner so there are a lot of moving parts to this you're looking at a team that's i look at coaches too with ben johnson and dennis allen i don't think you can get a better pairing right now i mean that's up there with spags and andy reed in terms of high level defensive thinking, aggressive defensive play, a defense that lived off of taking the football away, which again, is part of your identity, part of your culture that you're teaching during practice in the meeting room and what they can do from an offensive perspective. So I do think, and you look at the NFC this past year, now obviously every team's going to make adjustments. Every team's going to improve or get worse. We're one of the two, but the bears are in that mix. They are in that mix with LA, you know, with Seattle, with a healthy Philly team that can be explosive on offense. With the Green Bay Packers, they're on the mix. Now, on the flip side, look over the other side with Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills. Again, Joe Brady takes over. Offensive play call is your head coach. Need to make some moves. Need to improve what they have in the perimeter at wide receiver. Need to get faster in the secondary, especially at the safety position. But, again, they have pieces there, and they have, in my opinion, the top difference maker in the NFL at the quarterback position in Josh Allen. So that's why I look at it that early. You start to think, okay, this is the high probability they're not going to be perfect in making this pick in February, but you start to look at the key factors that could make it happen. Matt, you're the best. Appreciate all your time. This was a long discussion, but there was a lot to get to. Always love talking ball with you. Doing a great job at IC, Catholic Prep, great program. in this Catholic League right now over in Elmhurst. We'll see you in Indy next week. Looking forward to it. Let's catch up. All right, guys. Thank you again. We'll talk soon. Thanks, man. All right. There he is, Matt Bowen. Awesome stuff. Make sure you check out the full list, ESPN.com. If you go look at it right now as we're recording this or as we're live right now too, it's the first thing you go to ESPN.com. It's right there as the headline story, as it should be today. All right. We're going to react to that. I have a couple guys I want to bring up, too, on my own, including one special teamer. No surprise there. That's all coming up. But first. Well, Johnsy, what if you could have reliable and intelligent Wi-Fi? Isn't that just nice and general? But what if you could keep that intelligent and reliable Wi-Fi at the same price for five whole years? That is the Xfinity five-year price guarantee. Imagine Wi-Fi that makes everything in your home work together. It finds and fixes problems before you even notice them, like super intelligent Wi-Fi with a six cents. And it's going to let you stream the game even when the whole family is online at the same time. That's all your devices working in perfect harmony for five whole years. And the best part is there are no annual contracts, no hidden fees. Xfinity's best equipment is included too. So take it from us. A lot can change in five years. Championships are won. Records are broken. Dreams grow bigger. But your Wi-Fi, that should stay reliable. The price should stay put. So lock in your price and unlock the possibilities with Xfinity. Learn more at Xfinity.com. Xfinity, imagine that. Select plans only. Restrictions apply. And Adam, a well-built wardrobe is about pieces that work together and hold up over time. That's what Quince does best. premium materials thoughtful design and everyday staples that feel easy to wear and easy to rely on even as the weather shifts see this hoodie oh yeah looks good right it's like the softest material i think i've ever had i absolutely love it everything is built to hold up to daily wear and still look good season after season just like this hoodie it's one of my favorites right now plus they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com slash chgo for free shipping on your order. Three and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com slash chgo. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash chgo. Winter is here and is your homes heating up for the challenge. Now is the time to schedule your Four Seasons furnace tune-up. Are you thinking about a whole home generator? They've got you covered because Four Seasons, they guarantee same-day installation for all your heating, cooling, plumbing, electrical, and generator needs with no extra charge for nights, weekends, or holidays. Right now, save up to $4,000 on furnaces and comfort systems with Four Seasons heating, air conditioning, plumbing, and electric. Furnaces that start at $39 a month and furnace AC combos from $57 a month. Call today and save $50 from your trusted local experts. It's Four Seasons, your trusted local experts for heating, air conditioning, plumbing, sewer, and electric that have been serving the community and the Chicagoland area for over 50 years. So trust those local experts for heating, air conditioning, plumbing, sewer, and electric. You know it, it's Four Seasons. So go to FourSeasonsHeatingCooling.com for all their special offers and money-saving coupons. That's FourSeasonsHeatingCooling.com. hope everybody enjoyed that conversation with matt bowen uh really really good stuff i know i feel way more prepared for free agency now than um i did before we started that conversation an hour ago And again make sure you check out the full list of free agents Can wait for the top 100 as well. It is time now for the big takeaway presented by Xfinity. Imagine that as we will discuss our biggest takeaway, Johnsy, from that discussion with Matt Bowen. And I think we got to go with the one guy that he did peg as a you know ideal fit for the Chicago Bears and that was the safety that picked off Caleb Williams and ended the season in Cam Curl what did you think about that he had me at run defense I feel like there's going to be continuous conversations Adam about improving the pass rush and we know just how important that is but the Bears run defense also needs to improve. And that starts up front as well, but it also means having safeties that can play in the box. And if Jaquan Brisker leaves a free agency, if you need someone to pair with Kevin Byard, because I feel like Kevin Byard should return or will want to return, and the Bears will have him high in their list to four returning players, I think Cam Curl could be a good pairing with Kevin Byard, just like Matt Bowen said. yeah i i like it i think um it it would be affordable um again i kind of go back to i don't necessarily personally agree with it having brisker ahead of byard but i also understand the concern really it's because to me the whatever age concerns you have about byard and they're fair. I mean, he's getting up there, but Brisker's concussion history has me a little bit more hesitant than Bayard's age and whatever slowing down might be occurring there. You know, that being said, if Brisker goes out there and doesn't have much of a market because of that, and you can bring him back at a reasonable price, I'd bring them both back. I wouldn't have any problem with that as long as you, you know, continue to have, I don't know if Elijah Hicks is going to come back or if I'm Elijah Hicks, I'm probably looking for an opportunity maybe to start somewhere. I always think about Deion Bush in that situation. He was mostly a backup here and then he, he managed to go out and free agency and get the opportunity to play more. So it's it's, it's going to be like he said, it's going to be really interesting to see what the bears end up doing here with safety. Cause there's a lot of moving pieces, but cam curl, if they go from the outside uh does make a lot of sense so we got a super chat on this is from alex the bears fans 1989 he asked for our thoughts on signing cam curl as well so i mean here here they are uh i just think it's like matt made an interesting point that safety is a position that sometimes you could wait on i'm not saying you're gonna do this with cam curl you're definitely not gonna do with kevin buyer just because what he did last season for your team but it's something to watch like how long can you wait like where's that second tier like how much of a separation is that first tier safety to your second tier and again like we brought up in the conversation with matt i think there's some very good safeties to consider in the first and second rounds of this draft and we know dennis allen has a history of targeting safeties early in the draft if he feels like the player is good enough yeah well and remember remember how they got byard right he he was let go and then so that made that allowed him to to sign early and the bears took care of that right away so um there's always moving pieces with all this and um but i do like cam curl if he's an affordable option and again matt bowen has him down in the 40s on his list so that was the big takeaway presented by xfinity imagine that um and i'm also going to be watching those linebackers too. I've always appreciated Alex Anzalone's game. That's why I brought that up. He does have a Dennis Allen connection. But regardless, I'd probably have to go back and watch a little bit more tape on Anzalone. Anzalone's going into year 10 of his career too. And so his play speed, it would be hypocritical for me to be like, oh, go get an older player who's slowing down when I just spent months talking about how slow they were on defense. And so, but those are just, like Matt said off the top, you're just trying to connect some dots here early on because the coaching and player connections matter a ton. Here's the thing, too. You're not going to sign Alex Anzalone to like a five-year massive contract. Sure. You're looking for, call them temporary fixes if you want, but these types of moves are made across the league. Like, you have to make different moves to fill out your roster, and you try to come up with the best roster you can. Sometimes that's a veteran free agent who can do different things and his experience matters, whether that's as a pass rusher like Cam Jordan or at the second level in Alex Anzalone. Yeah. That's why Leo Chanel is interesting to me too. First of all, I mean, if you look around the league, these Wisconsin linebackers, they just... There it is. Yeah. I know they're good. Well, name a bad one. Because they're there. Pretty much any linebacker that was part of any Jimmy Leonard's defense is there. Wisconsin is in the league, whether they're outside, inside, Matt Ginkle, Leo Chanel, TJ Edwards. Even like the undrafted guys make careers for themselves, the NFL. TJ Edwards, Jack Sanborn. So with Leo's younger, he didn't overlap with TJ. He came in at Wisconsin after TJ left, but he is younger. I just wasn't totally, not totally sure about the perfect scheme fit, but good player, though he seems to find the ball. So that was just another name to bring up. I'm going to bring up another name here, and this guy I know is fast, but he's on the other side of the ball. I would love to see the Bears go out and add Rasheed Shahid for the Super Bowl champion Seattle Seahawks. Now, he Hogue's push for I didn't know what else to say. It works. We're going to keep campaigning here. And by the way, Dennis Allen connection. I realize he's on the other side of the ball, but he was in New Orleans and Dennis Allen was the head coach. So he at least says he's going to have the insight on the person, the player. um now he was traded from the saints to the seahawks in the middle of the season i would have actually been fine if the bears had given up a draft pick for him uh back in the middle of season now that you didn't great you didn't have to give up that pick now you can go out and sign him if you want the point here being look devin duvernay was a good returner for the bears there's no doubt about it he did a good job but if you want special if you want breakaway speed if you want touchdowns there's another level to get there and it's kind of the same conversation we just had about the running back situation you can settle for good because you can't you know pour all the resources and all the top top guys but to me Shahid see Shahid's got some limitations as a receiver the route tree kind of doing everything within your offense which is why he's not going to cost you, you know, what Tyreek Hill cost at when, you know, at the peak of his career, right? We're talking about probably a returner first, who's got the explosiveness to really give you touchdowns there, maybe, you know, two or three touchdowns over the course of a season, give you a good field position. You know, he's certainly not Devin Hester, but in today's football with, I mean, there really is no Devin Hester. So you're trying to get the fastest guy, best returner you possibly can. And right now, Rashid Shahid is in that conversation. I'm also would be interested to see what Ben Johnson can do with him on offense, though, because he does have a knack for putting up an explosive play, you know, once or twice a game as well. And I think that Ben would, you know, if you're if you're moving on from. Olamide Zaccheaus and, you know, potentially DJ more, if that ends up happening, who's filling some of those reps. And so I think Rashid Shahid in this offense and that speed would be awesome addition, especially in the return game, but also on offense. I think this answers a question I think we had from our friend, Mr. Ferrier as well. I'm 100% with you on this. Of course, there's some like line, whether or not you cross it just in terms of how much money you want to spend on this position. but there were multiple times throughout this season where I thought Devin DuVernay was just one more gear. Yes. So to breaking, to, to taking it to, to Peter, to the end zone. I thought the scheme and the setup, and especially with the way things have changed on kickoffs, like Richard Hightower does a fantastic job of scheming special teams right now, in my opinion. And there were multiple examples. I thought this year, Let's say the long 50 yarder against the Vikings. Can Shahid take that to the house? That was a great return by Duvernay. But if that extra gear is there, that extra level of speed is there in the return game. Is that a touchdown? There are multiple examples of that this season where I felt like Duvernay was just missing at this point in his career, just missing that extra gear to take it to the house. Even just 15, 20 yards further. Yeah, you're rarely you'd love to be able to block up returns perfectly. but you almost never go untouched all the way to the end zone. And if you do, it's usually still because you made a guy miss. Like there's always, you can't block up everyone. The math just isn't really there. And you're always trying to put double teams into your return scheme too. So you double team the most dangerous cover guy. Like, you know, all these things are actually plays mean run in the return game. And so you do need a guy who's got that extra gear and that elusiveness to make the key guy miss and to take it to the house. Now, Matt Bowen has Rashid Shahid 26 on his list, so he's not going to be the cheapest addition. And I also love that throughout his list, whether it was running back or receivers, he puts the explosive numbers in there for you to understand because we all know teams, and especially the Bears and Ben Johnson are looking at this, Shahid has 29 receptions of 20 or more yards in his four-year career. And that's with not really playing 100% of the snaps as well. Because like I said, he's a little bit limited in the full wide receiver route tree. But yeah, I think we made our point here. We're all in on Rashid Shahid if the Bears can add him. And explosive stats like that, like when you're doing your research for the draft, everybody at home, it's that time of year, the combine starts next week. Like those explosive like stats are the ones you want to look for when finding fits for Ben Johnson's offense, whether it's that receiver, running back, tight end, especially returner. Like that's what he wants. He wants explosive plays. He wants that juice. He wants those big chunk yardage plays. So keep those in mind when you're doing your pre-draft analysis. Yeah. um Blake brings up a fair point there in the comments that he might you know there's not a ton of wide receivers out there in free agency so he might get priced out and and you do need to be do need to be careful about that um all right anything else we should get in we have a mock draft yes Hogan Johns mock draft 1.0 coming out in print on Wednesday and there might be a a mini pod that comes with it yeah we're back there will be there will be yes 100 and it'll be here on youtube as well we'll have a like a shorter edition uh mini pod for you to we'll take you to the hogan johns draft room we'll argue we'll bang some tables exactly exactly and i and i'm not gonna lie i've been kind of struggling with this one already um there's a lot of edge rushers but there's i don't know that they're they're not all perfect i mean very few are they go in the top 10 if they're perfect but um yeah this is new for recently new a picking in the 20 like mid the mid 20s it's a different ball game i don't you don't have your pick of like whoever you want of these stud guys in the top 10 no well this is good yeah it's okay no it's a good thing it's a good thing, but I'm just saying it's been a little bit of a different process in terms of trying to figure out. There's a lot of organizations who have found a lot of good players at this point in the draft. Sometimes you got to trade up. Sometimes you stand pat and trade back, trust your board. But the Ravens, the Eagles, the Steelers, they've been okay picking in this range of the draft for a long time. Yep. And that's going to be the challenge for Ryan Poles and his staff now. All right. So be on the lookout for that tomorrow. first mock draft dropping and we'll have a mini pod to go along with it we'll also have a full episode for you on thursday as well and then next week we head down to indianapolis and we'll have a couple episodes for you from the nfl combine thank you so much to matt bowen for giving us you know basically 40 minutes of his time i can talk all day to matt i know i could have kept going and i really could have gone through almost every single one of those guys so uh we appreciate it from matt it'll be good to see him next week at the combine um please hit the like button on your way out if you enjoy that conversation based on the comments that came in live seems like everybody did so thank you very much uh please hit subscribe if you're here for the first time and uh you want more of these episodes and if you're already subscribed take the link send it off to a bears fan you that you know and say hey you need to be listening to hogan johns if you're a real bears fan. We know all of you guys are. And if you're listening the old fashioned way as a podcast, please rate and review the pod wherever you listen to it. Greatly appreciate each and every one of you watching, listening, however you consume the show. Again, look out for that mini pod and the mock draft. Otherwise, we'll be back with a full episode on Thursday. See ya. Thank you.