Lynn Hoffman and Judy Gold Discuss Laughter as Therapy : A Heartfelt Exploration of Comedy and Resilience

Comedy saved me. Welcome to Comedy Saved Me. I am Lynn Hoffman. You know the moment when you're about to say something completely inappropriate, you know, maybe at a family dinner, but then you remember you're the funny one. So suddenly it's not inappropriate anymore, it's just material? Well, our guest today has built an entire career on that exact instinct. I love it. She's a two-time Emmy winner who somehow made being loud and perpetually annoyed into an art form. She has been banned from more Thanksgiving dinners than she's been invited to and she wouldn't have it any other way. And she's also proven that sometimes the best therapy isn't just a couch. It's on a stage with a microphone and talking about everything your mother told you never to discuss in public, but lucky for us she never listened to her mother. Well, if she listened, she just chose to do a type 5 about it instead. Today on Comedy Saved Me, author of the best-selling book, Yes, I Can Say That, Judy Gold Judy Welcome to Comedy Saved Me. Thanks for that. What a great intro. Thank you so much. I love it. Well, I love it. It's true. It is true. You really have made this an art form and I've been following you for my whole life. Oh my God, I'm so... No, you're not. We'll be right back with more of the Comedy Saved Me podcast. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Comedy Saved Me. Judy, welcome to Comedy Saved Me. As you were talking, I was thinking, I remember as a little girl, you know, I come from a family of secrets like most Jews. And I remember in the living room or then we weren't allowed to sit in the living room unless there was company. Wait, was there plastic on the chairs too? No, we weren't that bad, but it was like, no, you are not allowed in there. I played piano, so I was allowed to go in and sit at the piano, but that was it. But I remember always thinking as a young girl, like, why are we not talking about blank? And why is no one saying anything about blank? And I just never understood it. And I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you people? You know? Yes. Like, why? I totally, I felt the same exact way. Example, family, I won't say who it is, but someone had a kid early in life and didn't find out until the wedding when the best man got up and said, oh, look, the daughter's here and nobody in the family knew when the daughter was 16. Yeah. What is that shit? It's crazy. And you know, that person who's a person, you know, has to feel like, wait a minute, like I remember that brings me to my sister's wedding. We're at my sister's wedding. I'm there with my ex and our son who had just been born. Let's see, he must, he was months old. And my neighbors were invited to the wedding. And what my aunt said to my neighbor, how do you know Jane, my sister? And she said, oh, well, we're Henry. That's my son's godparents, her and her husband. And my aunt said, who's Henry? And my mother never told my aunt that we had a baby because we were gay and it was 1996. And my aunt was so pissed off and all my mother's friends were completely pissed off. They were like, oh my God, we would have sent a gift. Like, what is wrong with you, Ruth? And so, you know, it was a turning point, but it was like, no. Why do you think that is? Why? It's about them. It's about their shame that their daughter's a lesbian, but no one cares, you know? No one cares but you. It's so true. My best friend came out to me and I'm like, and? Right. But in that, my mother's generation, she was born in 1922. Like, it wasn't, but her sister, no one cared. And she even had friends, you know, she had this one friend, Doris, who I love her. I think she's actually still alive, but her son was gay. And I'm like, ma. I built you talk to Doris about having a gay kid. Well, she didn't tell me he's gay and I'm not going to bring it up if she doesn't bring it up. So they're all, you know, walking around with the two gay kids, but never saying anything. It was ridiculous. When did you first realize that humor, I suspect I know after this conversation, but when did you realize it was going to be your survival mechanism? Like was there a specific moment, like maybe at the wedding or when you were talking about? No, no, but way before, way before. You know, a lot of, I don't know. I've read somewhere a lot of comedians grew up around depression and I had a depressed grandmother. I had a lot of generational depression and because of trauma, but my mother was definitely depressed and I was the youngest and I was the, you know, identified patient, you know, that term where like you're identified as the mentally ill one and the family when in fact you're the only normal one. Right. Yeah. So I was like, they were all like, what is wrong with you? And I was actually the only one who was like questioning this behavior of not talking about stuff. And I think, you know, having my grandmother and my mother be depressed, like I wanted to make that, I know that, you know, you know, that once you make them laugh, everything changes. The whole, and I was bullied a lot as a kid. And I think, and I often, I'd said this before, I said this in my book that when you're laughed at and humiliated your entire childhood, at some point you want to control the laughter. You want to get up there and say, no, I'm going to, I'll make you laugh. You're not going to be laughing at me. You're going to be laughing with me and I'm going to control your laughter. And so I think that had a lot to do with it as far as I was concerned, but humor is a weapon and it's a salve, you know? So, and I think- It's a unifier. Total unifier. And also, Jews have been using humor for thousands of years to get through, you know, even to this day, I mean, I do so many fundraisers. Jews always have comedians for fundraisers. The Knights of Columbus, do they have a comedian? No. They have some polka dance instructor or something. But we know how to laugh. And you know, I often say, you know, you're in a comedy club. You don't know who's sitting next to you. They could have completely different opinions about the world, views about, you know, politics and yet you're laughing together and it brings you together. It makes you a unit. I think for, you know, I started, I did my first set in 1981. Oh my God, I'm so fucking old. But I think that in the last 42 years, I mean, a lot has changed. But the most surprising thing for me honestly was when Trump got elected or before when he was campaigning and he was the only president that the like his followers, because it's a cult, would get, you couldn't even make fun of his hair benign issues about him because he couldn't, he can't take a joke. He wants to, you know, arrest people who make fun of him. But it was, you know, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Clinton was a goldmine. The other Bush, the Obama, like there was never a president who, you know, wasn't excoriated by comedian. And it's part of, it's like a stand up comedy really began here in America because it's such a direct result of our First Amendment rights. I couldn't agree with you more. It did. Yeah. I think it started in Boston at the comedy connection with some friends of mine, like, because then all of a sudden, all of the comedians, you'll agree, were all on the biggest television shows and movies. Oh, I love the comedy connection. I love the connection. I love Calhouns. Do they still have Calhouns? Yes. I don't know. I don't know if it's still there. I haven't been back in so long. But yeah, I mean, it really was the best. And it did start. Nick's, all the New York and Boston comics had such a camaraderie because we would just go back and forth and be able to do so many sets in a weekend. Yeah. I love Boston. I mean, everything you just said, especially about growing up, I was bullied. Of course, the main reason we were bullied is because we were Jewish. Well, mine was because I was six feet tall at 13. Well, that's my next question to you. Was not only, I mean, like, as a kid, I was five, nine and a half. And I wore a size 10 shoe, my grandma, when I was in junior high. And kids were relentless to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were hard. You were six foot three. So I would imagine that's even more. Oh, it was terrible. I grew up in New Jersey in a small town and they were just, they were very anti-Semitic and racist in my town. But there was a pretty decent sized Jewish community and we were used to it. We were used to these anti-Semites and their stupid cross burning and all this crap. You know, I walked into school every day, walking down the hall multiple times a day. Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Orca, big like it was constant. And we didn't have headphones. We didn't have anything to help us tune it out. To just, you know, tune it out. Yeah. And, you know, the thing I'm so grateful for is I didn't have to go home and go on social media and it was continued. So, but it was relentless and it was constant and just, you know, it took me until my 30s to walk by a schoolyard because I would cross the street because I was so traumatized by it. And then, you know, I had to go to schoolyard because I had kids and I realized, you know, but I mean, I would walk down the street and I'd hear laughing behind me. I'm like, oh, God, here. You know, it really, I don't know, it stays with you. And you know, I remember saying to my kids, if anyone is bullied at school, you stand up for them. You know, you go to their defense, blah, blah, blah. And my kids are like, mommy, we're in New York City. No one bullies anyone. I'm like, okay, great. Thanks. Thanks. I grew up in the wrong town. Right. My mother grew up in Manhattan and always said it would have been so much easier to bring you up in New York City because no matter how weird or strange or odd or different you are, there's someone more odd, more strange, more different. And there's a group that gets together of all of you. And you know, it's just, I don't know, it's such a different, that my kids are so much, you know, different than I am. Thank God they're growing up well adjusted and people are people and you're not labeled whatever it is. You know, you are who you are. And that's just so huge. Right. So important. I don't know what I would do. I mean, the name of this podcast, Comedy Save, I mean, people will always or often journalists will ask like, oh, what would you do if you were an comedian? And it's like, I don't know, I would die. I mean, it's really, I think most stand-ups who continue like come in my 40, whatever, second year, whatever. And I think in my 20s, I'd still be getting on a subway with my notebook going down to the comedy cellar to try out new material and be as excited as I was 40 years ago. No. But you know, I went to the cellar last night, I was talking to some, I'm like, this is what it's all about, you know? It is. It so is. And you know, based on your music and theater background too, do you feel that like classical training helps or hinders like authentic real comedy? I mean, stand-up comedy is an art form. Whether or not you are willing to admit it, it is an art form. It does what art does. It connects. It creates emotion, a reaction. And yet you don't need a theater background. You don't need, although a lot of comedians are musicians as well because, I mean, it's really all about the timing. And so a lot of comedians play musical instruments. Theater acting is a whole different ball game. Improv is a whole different ball game. Theater, you know, people will say, what's the difference between, because I've done a lot of theater in my career. People say, what's the difference? And the difference to me is in a theater, they're ready to listen. You have to keep their attention. At a comedy club, you have to get their attention. And there's no fourth wall. And theater acting is about listening. And comedy is about knowing and being aware, hyper-aware of everything that's going on in that room. And also listening to the response of the audience. And, you know, it takes years to know what you're doing on stage. So I feel, and I feel like it's the art form has changed so much now because people are getting stand-up gigs because they go viral with a funny video on social media. And yet they don't have the skills to headline a show in a comedy club. And yet the bookers will book them, not all, but most will book them because they'll sell out. Yeah, I was going to say because of money, of course. Wait, they'll sell out. But I've heard numerous bookers or club owners say, well, they sold out and they didn't know what they were doing. And I booked them several months later and no one wanted to come to the show. So. I also think it's the reason people are doing crowd work specials. It's because they're not writing material. And when I started, crowd work was frowned upon unless you were great at crowd work. It was your skill. And there were a handful of us who were great at crowd work, but it wasn't. You had to write material. You had to have the goods in order to get a late night spot, which would then get you more work. And it was just you'd go on the road for months to try to develop your act. And it's not like that anymore. These kids today. We can say that now, can't we? Yeah, we can. Get off my lawn. Can I ask you, is funny funny? I mean, you know when some people make a joke and they go, what too soon? I mean, if it's funny, right? It's funny. It's funny. It's funny. You know, it's involuntary, your laughter. And I remember talking when I was writing the book, I was friends with Gilbert and Gilbert the greatest of all. And he said, he said, what the thing I do and understand is I'll say something and people will go and then stop themselves from laughing because they're like, oh, wait, I'm not supposed to laugh at that. And he's like, why would you stop yourself from laughing? You know, and it's so 100 percent true. And I, a baby, a baby's born. What is the first thing you do? You try to make that baby laugh. That's all people. It is part of the being a human being. It's a sense of humor. And also, when you take the comedian's intent out of the material and you say, well, I took it this way and the comedian did not mean it that way at all, but you are stuck and you're like, well, that's how I heard it. It's like, no, that's how you heard it. Then move on. Then be like, well, I heard that. And you know, a comedian can argue and say, no, but this is what I'm saying, you know, and that person feels so empowered to post something or, you know, like giving a restaurant one star because you didn't like the shoes the host was wearing or something. You know, it's, I use this as an example a lot and it is that when you murder someone, right, and you go on trial, when? Not even if. Yeah. If you murder someone and you go on trial, right? Yeah. Your sentence is determined by your intent. Did you mean what were you thinking? Did you plan it? And yet a comedian doesn't get the same consideration when they're telling their jokes. It's ridiculous. I have never heard that before, but that is amazing. You have to like, you have to put that in the dictionary or something or get that more well known. Oh, please. No one cares. It's been a fight for 40 something years. It'll never go away. Yeah. The last question I always ask is laughing at yourself. Oh, the best. There's a lot of people that don't know how to laugh at themselves. Oh, then, yeah. Would you say that would be helpful in terms of healing and mental health? If you can't laugh at yourself, Trump, you know, you have, first of all, you have to have self-awareness. You have to have humility. You have to not take yourself seriously. I mean, why do you think comedians love being roasted? Like it is the greatest compliment of all to have one of your friends write a joke about you. I mean, my 60th birthday, my son and my partner, at least, they planned this surprise roast. It was the greatest night of my life. And you know, SNL, if someone did a parody of me on SNL, it'd be like, oh, what? Yeah. It gets compliment in the world. Yep. There is real, that is, I'm sorry, it's a personality defect. There is something wrong if you cannot laugh at yourself. No, I agree. Period. I agree. Full stop. Judy said it, so it is true. Personality defect. Yeah. Your material often draws from your mom and motherhood. Was anything ever too personal to share in a routine or is nothing off limits if it's funny? I guess I kind of asked this before because if it's funny, it's funny. Yeah, but now it depends on the person. You know, like my mother loved it. She was my biggest fan and she would purposely say stuff and know it was going right in the act that night. I love mom. So she was all in and oftentimes after a gig, I'd call and she'd say, how did we do? I love it. She really loved it. My kids, well, Henry, the older son, went when he was in adolescence and high school, was like, yeah, you're not allowed to talk about me in your act. And he was so addicted to Law and Order SVU. So he used to be like, I'm getting a cease and desist art. I'm like, Henry, shut up and stop watching Law and Order. So there was a funny story where I said, okay, I always do check with them now before I post anything or do a joke about them. I'll say, can I put that in my act? Yeah, they're usually fine about it. But I mean, he's 29 now. But there was a time, I remember, he must have been in high school or earlier, junior high. And I said, well, Henry, I'm a comedian. And Joy Dayhart was one of my mentors. She was always like, you know what, you're a comedian and everything is material. I'm like, yeah, you're right. It's true. I said, Henry, what if I change? I'll change your name. And he said, okay. What name do you want? And he said Jerome. And I'm like, okay, that must have been on some Law and Order episodes because who the hell picks the name Jerome? And so I'm in Provincetown and I go on stage that night and I tell this whole story. And the whole show, I'm like, so Jerome and they're all laughing. And after my shows, I used to take the kids to get ice cream and we're walking down the street to get ice cream. And one of the people in the audience is like, is that Jerome and Henry? Oh, geez. Was so, I was like. You were fired that moment, weren't you? Yeah, he was like, oh my God. So, yeah. So I had to be a little careful when they were growing up. But yeah, I don't, I want to make sure they're okay with it, especially now with social media, but there wasn't social media before. So it didn't matter. And you could go into a comedy club and no one was taking videos and taking contacts. You say intent, but there's also context. And which is you take a bit out of context or just a few sections of a bit and isolate them from what you're really saying. And there you go, cancellation. Yeah. But I don't think anyone really gets canceled. I agree with you. I don't think so either. People just like to spout off. But on this note when I'm talking about, this is going to sound really strange because you wouldn't normally ask this as a question. I don't know if I would normally would, but I, can you share, Judy, a low point in your life that has nothing to do with your comedy material, but where comedy pulled you back, maybe from the edge or really saved you? Oh my God. Yeah. There's two. There's two. And they're both pretty intense. So in 2010, I had a clinical depression, a nervous breakdown. I woke up. I remember I had just finished working. It was like January 3rd or something. We were in Washington, D.C. I woke up and I said to Alisa, something's wrong and I couldn't talk. I could not talk. I could not. I literally had a nervous breakdown and I went through this awful, I mean, it was, I really understand depression now. And I realized I had diurnal depression, which is there's nocturnal and diurnal. So nocturnal is people can't function at night. They get really depressed that, you know, and diurnal is during the day that, and once the sun goes down, you feel a bit of relief. But I will, so I had diurnal. I've never heard that before. Ever. Yeah. Wow. And so like William Strion who wrote about depression, he had nocturnal and most people have nocturnal, I think. I could not function at all. I couldn't eat. I couldn't talk. But at night, it would lift and I would try to go do stand up. I wasn't myself, but I could go through the motions, I think, because I had been doing it for so long. But it was, it took honestly years to get out of that head. Lot of cognitive behavioral therapy, learning that, you know, defining your thoughts of like, okay, so this is not real. This is a thought that is not based on reality. This is based in fear. Like I really learned, it's really, it's an amazing type of therapy. It's called DBT or CBT. I have a toolbox now, but it made me realize that my entire life, I had some type of diurnal depression because I couldn't, I didn't want to go to school. Obviously, I didn't want to go get bullied or everything, but I was anxious all day long. And when the sun went down, I did feel a bit of relief. But I had a perfect storm of things that happened to me. I had, my mother had had a bad fall and I remember I had to go get her and meet her at the hospital. And then I was with her and this rehab center had a room available and I said, mom, you're going to go to the rehab center. So I'm going to go to your apartment and get some stuff. So you have it there and I'll, the ambulance will take you and I'll meet you there. And she's like, well, how long do you think I'll be there? And I knew she was never going home again. I knew it. And it's being that being, I mean, I have siblings, but they, one lives in Arizona and one wasn't available that day. But I mean, we all chipped in. It wasn't like, you know, it ended up. But that experience, knowing your mother's never going to go home again. And I had just done a pilot for a show that everyone thought was getting picked up. It didn't get picked up. And I also found out that the person who was managing my money, I was like $80,000 in debt. So I had no idea. Yeah. They were paying my taxes on credit cards, like 0% credit. So anyway, perfect storm, like you said, perfect storm. And I just had this and I, and I swear the resilience from doing stand up and being on the road and, and alone. I mean, look, when I started, there's no phones. There's no computers. You're isolated. You can't even call home because the cost on the hotel phone would eat up your whole salary. You're a woman. You're by yourself, sometimes in these comedy condos. I mean, just to get on stage for a friggin half hour a night, you know. And you know, everything is character building. So I think that I finally got out of it. That's my biggest fear that it'll happen again, but I don't have a likelihood that it'll happen again. And I have tools, you know, the toolbox, as I said. So that was one thing that where I think comedy saved me knowing that I wanted to get back on stage and hearing laughter and stuff. The other thing is this past June, I went on an LGBTQ mission to Israel for Pride. And it was my second mission. My son lives there. He moved there in August. He plays professional basketball there. So I was just there in November and December. But while we were there on this mission, Iran started bombing Israel and we spent a lot of time in the bomb shelters. We were stuck there. We couldn't get out. There's 10. Holy shit. Ten of us in our group. The airspace was closed. Goosebumps right now while you're saying that. I can't even imagine. It was, you know, I learned a lot about myself and the Jewish people and the Israelis and how resilient they are. But humor not only saved me, but it saved our group. I think my making fun of, you know, finding humor. Did you start doing stand up in the shelter? No, no, no, no. I was, you know, just I'm just being, you know, making jokes, you know, making light of the situation. I mean, sometimes there's you can wallow in sadness and fear or you can make a joke. And as you know, in the Holocaust, you know, they were there's a whole book called Humor in the Holocaust. There's a quote in there of a woman who said, we joked about everything because it was the only thing that made us feel human laughter. And so I, yeah, so that that experience. And I just was in Florida last week working and I saw one of my what should we call it shelter mates. We called each other shelter husband and shelter wife because I would get a mat from the gym I stole a mat from the gyms because we were in the parking garage underneath the hotel. So we could sit on and he brought a pillow and it's sort of like, and every time we went down, we knew what to do. And he said that sort of saved him. I think humor has really saved me. But those two experiences, those are the most poignant in my life. That's pretty incredible. I mean, just hearing you say that story about joking in the in the bomb shelter and joking in the Holocaust. And I think of my grandfather when he was dying in his last breath, he was making jokes with the nurses. He knew he was going to die, but they came out of the room laughing. Your grandfather, he's so funny. Sorry, we're laughing. He died, but he's so funny. He must have been amazing. But that's us. Yeah. I mean, look at that. Look at the Jewish people. And by the way, for anyone who's listening, you know, I've been to Israel three times since October 7th. The Israelis do not disparage the Palestinians. They hate Hamas. They want peace. They don't they're not obsessed with this, you know, it's a terrorist organization. You know, the only place you can be gay and not be killed is Israel. And if you're Palestinian and you're gay or trans and will be thrown off a building and you escape to Israel, you're granted asylum. You're given health care. You're given counseling. You're given a job like like do your due diligence before you start, you know, your anti Israel, anti Jewish. It's it's just it's unbelievable the amount of anti-systematism. But I'm going to keep talking about it and I'm going to keep making jokes about it. Well, thank you for saying that, you know, I think more people do need to speak up about that just in general. Please. I talk to people now, friends, and I'm like, listen, you don't understand. I've never seen this my whole life. You know, this is my 50s and I've never seen this my whole life. I remember asking my parents about the Holocaust when I was a kid. And I said, how long ago did that happen? And they said it was about 30 years ago. And I thought that wasn't that long ago. I mean, that could happen again, couldn't it? And my whole life I've always thought, man, that could happen again. Yeah. Auschwitz was liberated 17 years before I was born. Seventeen years. Now think back 17 years. I think it was yesterday. Twitter. Twitter was. iPhones. No, iPhones. What? No, I mean, yeah. Seventeen years is nothing. And yet here we are again, every 80, 90 years. And it's our turn. It's our generation's turn. And yes. Yeah. And we have to we have we're not going anywhere, people. We're not going anywhere. And we don't go anywhere. Thankful for all of the contributions we've made to your life. OK. Oh, it's so annoying. I like to get let you just let it breathe. Fucking assholes. We'll be right back with more of the Comedy Saved Me podcast. Welcome back to the Comedy Saved Me podcast. So coming out, coming out in the 80s and 90s, took a lot of guts for you, speaking of that, because I came out in the 90s. I came out as a gay parent. It was a big deal back then. It was huge. I mean, there's this Netflix special. I'm so proud to be a part of called Outstanding, the History of LGBTQ Comedy. And it's really. Just and Patriowitz directed it. And it is. It's fascinating and everyone should watch it because you learn about the entire movement and how representation, how important representation is. And I am not by any means the first comedian to come out. But I was one of the first to come out in the straight clubs. I was working all the straight clubs. I had had an HBO special, but my son was born. Here I was as a gay parent. First of all, I'm not going to hide who I am. But like, what kind of message is it to say to your kids, listen, I love you. I don't talk about you on stage. I talk about everyone, everything else. Number one. And number two, you know, you know, I came out because of my son, but it was because of him that that it made it more. Palatable and easy to come out because I was up there talking about parenting stuff and all the people in the audience were like, oh, my God, that's the same thing as that. Oh, my God, that's so funny that, you know, and it became that they had forgotten that it was a gay family. Now, when I hear, you know, young comics, people in their thirties mostly, some 40. Oh, my God, I'm so old. But talk about. I would go to my basement and I would watch you and, you know, I get letters like I watch your special with my parents, and that's how I knew they were OK with gay people. And I, you know, I would go say, who is this loud Jewish lesbian screaming and she has a family. You're like it was, you know, it was for these kids who live in. You know, these isolated areas with not small minded, but, you know, people who are not exposed and have opinions because based on no no knowledge they're ignorant about that, you know, there they see someone that they can relate to and are like, oh, OK, you know, and just like I did when I was growing up, you know, watching, you know, Mary Tyler Moore and, you know, all like all these shows were, you know, there's Mary. Yeah, good times. Yeah. The Jeffersons. Yeah. Maude, Maude was a huge. And there's Maude. Yeah. I love her. Yeah. So, yeah, representation is everything. It is. And really, you were like breaking down doors and didn't even realize it. Are you you must have been like, am I the only one that doesn't realize that it's normal, like I'm normal? Hello. Well, I came about. Yeah. That's such a that's I like that. I mean, I came at it as like. That there's nothing like what is your problem? You know, like they're the ones with the problem. You're fine. I'm just living my life like everyone else. Yeah. Yeah. And I come out the anti Semitism, I think, in the same way on stage. I'm like, OK, oh, you can't laugh at that because you just remembered you hated us. I mean, come on, people. The fact that you can even do that, too. I mean, that shows so much to people in the audience. How does that make you feel, by the way, when you've changed someone like that, when you make somebody who. Oh, my God, there's nothing. You know, I'm really just want them to laugh. But when I get these letters or someone waiting after, I mean, now I'm telling you people write to me and wait for me after the show and say, you know, I was in the audience and I didn't want to say I was Jewish because I'm afraid. But thank you, thank you. You made me feel proud to be a Jew. I like this is what's happening now. And I mean, on the other hand, I go into the comedy clubs and I see these gay, trans, non-binary, whatever, comics on stage. It's nothing. It's as no one gives a shit. And yet, for me, it was like people leaving or don't talk about this. You're doing this game. You can't bring this up. You can't bring that up. You're doing a TV show, you know. And no, I again, there's that little girl going. With you people. So I think that when I'm on stage, I'm incredulous. Like, I don't understand. No, I'm going to call you out on your shit, on your hypocrisy. So, yeah, it's really it's yeah. And so many, I don't know if you know this, but a lot of comics are like, I'm not doing my Jewish material anymore. I'm like, you have to do your Jewish material. Why? You know, people turn. I never let me tell you something. October 8th, after October 7th, when I got on stage, I did like a benign Jewish show. I get to think about my mother. I never felt pushback, not even when I was gay in the straight clubs like that. The silence, I didn't even compare to the gay stuff. And I said, what is are you fucking kidding me? Wow. It happened that fast. That fast. Yeah. OK, so I'm not crazy. You know, you're not crazy. I'm telling you, you're not crazy. I mean, you probably are crazy, but you're not crazy. You have to be a little crazy. Yeah. I mean, all Jews are crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Don't tell anyone or say, did you ever go anywhere? This happened to you. You went to like a visit a friend in a town you've never been to or a state you've never been to and they're like, oh, my God, I've never met a Jewish person before. Oh, yeah. I was like always kind of like, really? I what did you think? What do we do? We have. And I didn't even know what that meant. Now I know what that means. I had no idea. Something on the Internet where someone wrote either on Instagram or something. Did anyone ever get asked? I've heard that people would say Jews have horns. Did anyone ever get asked? And there was like a thousand responses. Everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Like, really? You thought that was true. Right. It's. Isn't it better being naive, though? Kind of what I want to put my rose colored glasses on and forget about all that. But right. Well, there's a difference between naivete and ignorance. So real full ignorance. You know. Yeah. Yeah. That is true. Well, I think what did you use the word to describe yourself as a kid? And when you were growing up, because you were different, but you weren't. You were felt like you were the only normal one in the family. Oh, the identified patient. See that I would call the black sheep marching to the beat of your own drum. Right. Things totally from a different perspective. Right. The black sheep is like, oh, you're weird. The identified patient is also. Oh, you're weird, but we're normal. This, you know what I mean? Yes. Yes. And it's like, no, you're not normal. Yeah. You know, black sheep is just different. She doesn't fit in, but identified patient is like, where the fuck did you come from? I like that. I like that. Yeah. All right. That that's pretty cool. Yeah. Especially when you know it, when you're young. Right. It's like you're cursed because you figured it out and now you have to deal with it the rest of your life. Right. And now all these decades change. You have to keep up with all the time. It's good to have kids, though, for that reason. Isn't it good? Because you can then you can then you're creating a human being with your values. And yeah, my kids came out damn good. So. And that's and that is what like really speaks volumes about who a person is. But then again, also, there's a crapshoot because you just never know. You know, you never know. Yeah. But in the industry, because I'm you're so generous with your time, Judy, I really appreciated two Emmys and accolades, a bestselling book. You had a popular podcast, which is still out there, isn't it? Yeah, you can still listen to it. Yeah. You've had specials and gigs and stuff in the past. They're a little tough. What fuels you in terms of where? What gives you the strength to keep going, especially during these times as we've just described in myriad ways? I think that. I don't know. I've, you know, I have this thing on my desk. All right. You have to read it to me unblind. Never, never, never give up. I don't know. Like it's so weird. There's so many times I fantasize about, oh, it's to be real estate age. No, I couldn't. I couldn't be a real estate. I I don't know what I would do without being able to get on stage. I don't know. I mean, even during covid, we were doing like zoom shows and going outside. We go to Central Park and do stand up. I mean, I don't know what keeps me. I love it. I love it. I have something to say and to go in the clubs and that the audience is filled with 25 year olds and to make them laugh and be relevant. It's just that it's the greatest feeling. It's so great getting getting a laugh. It's just the most amazing feeling. Judy, I can imagine you as a real estate agent. Just by the fucking house. I know. I couldn't deal with people. I sleep better when I do a set because I like get all my angst out. Yeah, I understand that. Yeah, you like to talk a little bit. I like to talk on stage, but like when I. First of all, I never want to go out to dinner with a group. I can't stand group dinners. Why not? What's the worst? What's the problem? I'm around crowds all the time. Oh, yeah. I want to be with people I want to be with. But I want to like have a conversation with them. So I hate groups and I just hate bars. I mean, I won't. But people are like, oh, you want to go? I'm like, no, I don't want to be around loud and crowd. I don't, you know, so. And a lot of time. I'm so used to being by myself because I spent so much time on the road. I kind of I'd like being alone. Yeah, when you're around people all the fucking time. Come on, you can't be. You cannot be rude to your fans. No, of course not. You have to give them time. They came to see you, even the crazy ones. And then there's also the, you know, I liked part of your show and the other part was very if. And I'm like, OK, I'm sorry I offended you. They have to come tell you that. They can't just leave. It's like it's it's about them. You realize as you get older, nothing is about you. It's always about them. So. Yeah. Let's just talk about your book. Yes, I can say that. Tell me a little bit about it, what fans can see in it and read about it. And what's what's a truth that you share in the book that others avoid? Well, the book came out in 2020. Really? Yes. In July of 2020. Right in the middle of the pandemic, I didn't get to do a book tour. I was asked to write it by an editor at a publishing company because they had seen me on a vice TV piece about comics being politically incorrect or political correctness and stand up. And I am against that. But but I am a free speech. I believe you should be able to say in this country, whatever you want, and should suffer the consequences of that if if need be. So they asked me to write this book about free speech from the perspective of a comedian. So I wrote it. And I'll never forget, the first review was about this woman was like, I really learned a lot. You know, there's a lot of history in it and a lot of arguing. Like I wrote it with a friend of mine. I had him help me write it. We had all these chapters about different parts of like stereotypes. And I don't know, I have I have the book somewhere, but, you know, all different chapters about different types of speech and comedy. And I used comics jokes from ages ago and current as the evidence to support what I was saying. And my friend, Eddie would would write with me. He would I like this is the point I want to make. And we would argue back and forth all day long until we had it. We had it down. And it was the audio book is fantastic, by the way. It was in the New York Times. Oh, there's an audio book, too. Yes. Oh, I know it came out and it did well. But, you know, it was COVID where, you know, no one read. It's so funny. You have all this time to read, but you're going to make bread instead of reading. Then when this stuff happened with Colbert, and Jimmy Kimmel, it got they did a second printing just recently because it is so relevant right now. And I I had I did a show about it as well. Like we turned it into a theater piece directed by B.D. Wong. And it was fantastic. And it's back now. It's back. People are buying it and reading it because of what is happening to these late night hosts. Here's a big message in the book. Satire. Humor. We are we're the truth tellers. That's why people laugh because it is all seeped in truth. Satire weakens propaganda. And that is why dictators, authoritarians, hate comedians, they're killed and jailed in other countries. And for a network to bow down to an elected official, the president of the United States. This is an America. We have taken our leaders to task since the beginning of time. The whole White House Correspondence Dinner. I don't you can't even attempt the White House. I mean, that says a lot about about someone. I I note in the book, not that I'm making a comparison that was at 1934, 1933. Hitler passed the treachery act, right, which meant listening to or telling an anti Nazi joke was an act of it was a felony punishable by imprisonment or death. OK. That was, I think, thirty four something the year before that. Hitler was banning books and it's just a repeat. Like they're banning books in Florida. They're banning books in libraries. Where are you? Banning books in Florida. Oh, my God. They've been banning books and all these. Oh, you have to you have to look it up. They ban books in libraries and school libraries. And yet we have a president going after not only a journalist who are asking questions he doesn't like or a joke, you know, that is. It's it's mindboggling. It's mindboggling. I don't. This is not America. So I wrote this book and it's having a resurgence now, which I'm very happy about. But it really helps you to understand. Why people feel threatened by standup communities. And there's also a reason there's always a comic on a panel show. You know, there are all these pundits and then there's like the funny one because they're going to tell the truth. They're going to call you out and say, oh, come on. You know, they're not afraid to do that to make it. Funny one. The funny one always gets all the shit under the stick. They have to wrap it up and make it palatable for everybody else so they can keep their job. Yeah, exactly. Totally. Do you feel that comedy saves audiences to or just the comedian? Oh, yes. 100 percent saves audiences. People say, oh, my God, I needed that laugh. Oh, my God, I hadn't laughed in so long. Oh, my God, this happened. And then I went out and I laughed. You made me forget about blank. It is so laughter is so important. And laughing at the right stuff, you know, not not being mean or. You see authoritarians on television and they're never they never laugh. They don't laugh. Or if you see them laughing, it's their whispering in someone's ear. And you know it's at someone else's expense. Whenever I see someone who is authoritarian, laugh, it's always at someone else's expense. And I don't know, you got to stop taking yourself so seriously. And not everything is about you. That's one of the chapters, too. It's not about you. No, Gleedian woke up this morning and was thinking about you when they were writing their material. You know, yeah, that's true. Like a joke. Don't laugh at it and move on with your fucking life. If comedy went away tomorrow, what what do you think would save you? Nothing. There's no nothing. There there's nothing without laughter, nothing zero. What is your proudest bit or joke? Not necessarily the biggest laugh, but maybe the biggest truth and some advice for anyone thinking on getting into this for a career or even just to help them through a tough time in their life. Wow. Wow. That was a double question there. I know. Proudest bit. No one's ever asked me that. Proudest. Yeah, I have a few jokes that I love. Like I have an Anne Frank joke that about it's one of my oldest jokes. And I love that joke so much. It's about how we would have gotten caught because there's no way my mother would have cut her mouth shut. You know, and then I act out this whole thing about her screaming at me for not. Do you see how I just I went like this? Yeah, you go like that. I can't even help it. You know that, you know, Jude, if I asked you to watch that dish 10 minutes ago, mom, shut up, we're going to get caught. That's why we're going to get caught. And we're all going to die because you couldn't wash a goddamn dish. And I love that joke because it's so layered in, you know, terror and yet guilt and mothering and just and taking this horrible situation and finding humor in it. So that's one of my favorite, I think, bits that I do. I haven't done it in so long. So advice. Tell the truth. Never steal material. Do the work. Do the work. Get on stage and do the work. There's something you get from being on stage that you can't get any other way. But in the meantime, write your act, work on your act, be ready. You know, you get opportunities in your life and you want to be prepared. And people I've seen hundreds of people fizzle out because because they didn't do the work and they were writing on this or writing on something else. But enjoy the journey. And you have to. It's not that you have to want to do it to do it. You have to have to do it. Like I have to do it because it's not. Come on. It's not the greatest life. I mean, I think it's great life. But the fact that I brought up two kids, I supported a family being a comedian. I mean, that's the most incredible thing and that my kids see that their mother followed her dream and did what she loved. And now I have a son playing professional basketball in Israel because he wasn't afraid to follow his dream. And my other son works with kids with behavioral problems. He's following what he loves to do. And I think there's a lot to be said about that. But for comedians, don't ever compare yourself to anyone else. Don't listen to what people say. I mean, there's so many people who will tell you shit. Follow your path and do the work and tell the truth and get on stage and write. Great, great advice. And also what we also learned in this podcast from Judy. And read my book. Yeah. I guess I can say that. And also, humility. I wrote this down, by the way, while you were talking because I just wanted to double back. Humility, self-awareness, intent and context. They're really important things. I mean, they seem so simple, but when you go through life and you have the hindsight to look back at it all, it all makes so much sense. And you also lead by example. So it's obvious it passed on to your children. So congratulations for that. Thank you. And everything that you're doing. And you're right. You made a living being, making people laugh. And what better way could you make a living? Oh my God, it's the greatest living in the entire world. It is. You look amazing. Judy Gold, thank you for being on Comedy Saved Me. Thanks for having me. All right, thanks for being had. You're welcome.