Mormon Dad Believes, Daughter Doesn't - Katie & Matt Todd | Ep. 2116

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dillon. It is February 7th, 2026, and today we have a super exciting interview. We are interviewing a father and his daughter, both raised LDS, and the hook or the topic for today is what happens when an adult child or a Mormon teen slash Mormon young adult decides to leave the church? What's that like for a parent? What's that like for the teen slash adult child? And how do they navigate it gracefully and skillfully, probably with some mistakes, such that in the end, maybe their relationship is even strengthened by that entire process. Definitely not ruined. And that is what we're going to be covering today. It's part of this bridge building theme that we've been trying to build on for the past year or so. where we want to interview believing Mormons, active Mormons, faithful Mormons, and make sure that we're not just focusing on ex-Mormons and deconstruction, but instead are providing you content that helps build bridges, that helps unite families, heal relationships, and that can bring our families and our communities together instead of more polarization and divisiveness. Please subscribe to this channel if you find this content valuable. We're like 3,000 away from hitting our 300,000 mark on YouTube. It would be really helpful to reach that 300,000 mark, not just for the algorithms, but because it helps other people want to come on the show when we have 300,000 subscribers. And it'll let you know when new episodes are coming out. So please subscribe. Thanks to our donors for making all this possible. And without any further ado, I want to welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast, Matt Todd. Hey, Matt. Hello. Thanks for coming. My pleasure to be here. I assume you're the dad. I'm the dad. Okay. And joining us also is Katie Todd. I guess you're the daughter. Yes. All right. I just want to say thank you both so much. And I don't know if this is going to hurt your feelings, Katie, but thank you especially, Matt. because I think you represent the believer in this dyad. Is that right? That's right. Yep. And it's no small thing in 2026 for a believing Mormon to be willing to come on Mormon Stories Podcast, right? You know, I'm happy to be here. I just, I love and respect Katie, and I'm sure I wouldn't be here if it weren't for her, but, you know, I'm happy to be here. Wait a minute. You wouldn't be here just for me? I wouldn't be here just for you. Oh, my goodness. Well, I'll try not to be heard about that. No, that makes sense. Well, thanks for doing it. And, yeah, I think that I am predicting that your love for Katie is going to shine through and be inspiring to a lot of people today. So thank you for that. Thank you. And, Katie, it's no small thing as well that you're willing to come on here, be so vulnerable, and to share your story as well. So thank you. Thank you. Anything you all want to say before we jump in? Should we just jump in? Nothing in particular. Yeah, let's go. Okay, so let's start maybe with you, Matt, if that's okay. I guess my first question for you is, were you raised LDS, and what was your moment of bringing life? Just really, what was it like, just really briefly? Yeah, I mean, I was born, my parents were both members of the church. My dad's a convert to the church. My mom comes from pioneer ancestry. And, yeah, I think I was kind of raised in my, you know, young years there, pretty typical LDS upbringing background. Are you comfortable sharing, like, what city, state, high school kind of thing? Yeah, so I was born in Rexburg. Okay. Lived there until I was five years old. Yeah, okay. And then we bounced around a little bit throughout the country. Okay. And high school was where? So I did my first year of high school in South Carolina, and then we moved to Provo, and I finished high school in Provo. Okay. So I make you a bulldog or what? Timpview. Okay. Yeah. So BYU after that? Yeah. So my dad, the reason we came to Provo was my dad taught at BYU. Oh, what did he teach? So he taught mechanical and manufacturing engineering. Oh. Okay. So you attended BYU with your dad as a professor. Yep, as an undergrad, and then I stayed there for law school as well. Okay, but you decided not to become an engineer. Yeah, I did. Well, I did do my undergrad degree as chemical engineering. Oh, wow. I did an engineering degree, and then my dad was actually part of the reason why I ended up going to law school. Okay. So. And you do patent stuff. I do patent a lot. So I'm sure there was some connection between getting a science-based undergrad to then help you be a really good patent attorney. Yeah. Okay, cool. That's fun. So I'm assuming that did you end up doing the typical meet your fiancé at BYU and temple marriage kind of thing? So we actually met in high school, senior year in high school at Tempview. We had an English class together, and we met each other there. We went on three dates that senior year in high school, and I didn't really get to know her really until through letters when I was on my mission. We exchanged letters, a lot of letters, every other week. I would write her, she would write me, and I think that's where I really got to know her. Okay. Okay, so you got home, got married relatively quickly. It's in a year, yeah. Okay. It took a year to get married. Temple marriage? Yep, temple marriage. Oh, Provo Temple? Provo Temple that no longer exists. The little dreidel that you spin? The dreidel temple? You know what I'm talking about there? I know what you're talking about. Katie's like, what is she talking about? I think I remember. You see the photos. Yeah. Okay, okay. All right, so that's weird. it doesn't exist anymore. It's strange. It's strange to think about. It's not there anymore. Yeah. When I was in the MTC, we would visit. That's where we would do the endowments each week. Yeah. I fell asleep once. In the MTC, I was so exhausted. During one of the weeks that we did the ceremony, I fell asleep. I started snoring and all my companions were laughing at me. Anyway, that's a memory I have in the Provo Temple. That did no longer exist. Okay, sorry, squirrel. So, all right, so Temple Marriage, Provo Temple, this is sounding like a very Mormon story. And, yeah, so how many children did you and your wife end up having? We've got three daughters. Katie's our oldest. Okay, so, all right. So once you graduate from BYU Law School, did you stick around? Let's see. So we built a home in Highland after graduating from high school. We liked Utah County. We wanted to stay in Utah County. My first kind of real job out of school, I worked for a law firm that's based up in Salt Lake. But we liked Utah County. So we built a home there on the edge of Utah County as close as we could get to Salt Lake. And I would do the commute up to Salt Lake every day. So Highland and Alpine is just such a special area in so many ways. But to get there early was kind of a good move, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that we could afford to be there now. I mean, we've been there 20, 22, 23 years. Yeah. It's been good to us. Yeah. I love Highland, Alpine, Lehigh. Okay. So, yeah, let's bring Katie in now. So, Katie, what are your earliest memories of being raised in your family as a Mormon? That's a good question. I think I feel like my dad would remember more than I would. But I definitely remember we did like family home evening every Monday. We did scripture study like every every morning. Yeah, I think it was pretty much every morning. Like I remember setting aside like probably 20 minutes before we'd go to school and we would read the scriptures and then have family prayer. I always went to all the mutual activities and then, you know, the church on Sundays, which was three hours at the time. I remember like going into Young Women's, I was very passionate about getting my like Young Women's medallion. So I got that pretty, pretty early on. I think I was 14. You got it young. Yeah. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah, I think something that is a little unique is I went to like an LDS-based private school from kindergarten to 12th grade. Oh, wow. Like a charter school kind of thing? Kind of, yeah. It's actually a private school, not a charter school, but yeah. What's it called? American Heritage. Where is that? It's right across the street from the Timpanogos Temple. Oh, and so let me ask Matt really quick. What made you want to put your kid in American Heritage? It was my wife's doing. Okay. Sorry. I shouldn't have assumed. And she could tell the story better than I could. But she somehow became acquainted with the school and just fell in love with it. And we love the school to this day. I mean, I just love spending time down there. It's just a wonderful environment, wonderful teachers, wonderful faculty, administration. It's just we just love the environment. And I think she felt like I want my kids to go here if there's any way I can do it. I think that's kind of how that came to be. What was part of it an interest in do they integrate faith with education? They do. Yeah. So you wanted and I'm guessing there's some of the sort of constitutions inspired. Founders were inspired. America. Katie's Katie's nodding. Yes. And also, so I think I'm zoning in. I think I'm tracking like it's a combination of faith and country and education, Mormonism all rolled into one. Was that part of it? Yeah, I think so. And Katie would know best because she actually went through the curriculum. But, yeah, that's my impression. Okay, all right. So, Katie, talk about American heritage. I mean, I'll have to say I've had several people reach out to me saying that they grew up going to American Heritage, meaning that there's at least a certain percentage of people that end up leaving the church who go to American Heritage. I don't know if there's a connection, but they want to tell me I went to American Heritage as if it's like something important to them that they wanted to communicate. So, Katie, what's it like? Yeah, I actually loved it. I loved being there. I did leave. I wanted to try public school, so I left American Heritage and went to public school for half of the academic year in second grade, and I didn't like it, so I wanted to go back to American Heritage. It has, especially going into high school, there's smaller class sizes, and so you have a really good group of friends, and I feel like the teachers are very involved, and they I don't know, like you just develop these close relationships with teachers and then also with your friends. So overall, I think it was definitely a very positive experience. Some, I think some things are a bit of a culture shock to people to hear about because we would start like a lot of classes with a devotional and a prayer and like a hymn. And so sometimes when I tell people that they were like, what? Like they didn't understand how that would even be implemented. I mean, BYU does that oftentimes. BYU starts, a Division I university often has professors start classes with prayer. So you just started young. Yeah, yeah. And we did have uniforms, and they were pretty strict about the uniform dress code. I feel like it got more lenient as I got older. I don't know if that's an actual accurate statement. Like the school got less intense? I think so. Like in like we weren't allowed to wear ankle socks when I was in like middle school and elementary school. And then they kind of went away with that. Even like we couldn't have more than one like bracelet or hair tie on our wrist and our nails like couldn't be painted like cool colors. They had to be like clear or like pink. And did you feel like there were religious pillars or foundations for those types of rules? Yes. I think they would kind of argue that it's like you show like your faith and devotion in like little things. So they're like, it's not actually about this little thing that we're doing. It's just the bigger message and principle that is like being enforced. Kind of obedience culture a little bit? Yeah. Okay. Not to make that sound pernicious. I think rules can be very helpful. Right. Of course. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Okay. So. All right. So, I mean, most of us who are Mormon growing up, you know, three hours of church on Sunday, which is what a lot of us grew up with, plus young men's, young women's during the week. And then once we're in high school, seminary, like that's a lot of religious instruction. But you had that on steroids because you're getting extra religious instruction from K through eight. Right. Yeah. In Utah. Yes. Yeah. And also really quick before I go there, there's patriotism. What was that like? Just the whole constitution, founders, America. Yeah, I think it was introduced to me so young and I didn't question it for such a long time that I didn't think much of it. I think there was definitely like a whitewashing of history, which of American history. Yeah. Yeah. And there were just so many things that I wasn't familiar with. Yeah. But also it's not terrible to grow up loving your country and learning about your country, right? I enjoyed that growing up. Yeah. Okay. So what was it like? How was your faith in elementary, middle, and then high school? And like, what was that? Sorry. Like, did it get strong or did you start noticing problems early on or were you totally in it and then something happened? Like, how did your faith arc develop in that context? Yeah, I was totally, like, totally in it, especially through, like, middle school and then high school. And then I started kind of questioning things the end of my junior year of high school, and it was pretty abrupt. Like, I – Okay, so through your junior year, you're, like, in it to win it. Yeah. And, Matt, I'm assuming that you and your wife were full Orthodox believers all through this time as well. Is that correct? I think that's a fairly accurate description. Okay, before we just assumed that, were there bumps before Katie had her bumps for you or your wife? I don't know that there was ever anything significant. you know I mean I think we all have questions and you know things that raise in your mind and you think oh that's kind of interesting or odd or whatever I do remember I read Rough Stone Rolling in this kind of time period so that came out around 2004 2005 yeah and it must have been in that I don't know exactly what years but before 2010 you know I think I probably picked it up and read it and enjoyed reading it, but there are things in there that you read it and you think, okay, that's a little interesting, and I didn't necessarily understand that whole picture before. So I think there were things like that that you read or you learn about, and it takes time to process things and just kind of think through, what do I think about that? Are you comfortable sharing the top three biggest things that surprised you reading Rough Stone Rolling? It's been a long time since I've read it. But some of the things I think that are still in my mind is just the feeling of that Joseph, as he was going through these experiences, he was figuring things out as he went along. He never had a full picture, I think, of the whole thing. I think he was peeling layers kind of of an onion and trying to figure it out as he went. I look at it, you know, as kind of a precept on precept type, you know, way of developing something. And that was interesting to me. The church says an ongoing restoration, right? Yeah, yeah, that was interesting to me. I don't know that I had ever thought about that before, of that he had questions, you know, and he wasn't sure exactly what he was doing. I mean, you're reading things in there about, you know, the washing with whiskey, and it's just kind of funny things that you read it, and you think, okay, that's a little odd. Oh, like when they did washings and anointings, temple washings and anointings, but with alcohol. Some of that very early stuff. Yeah, it's just, when you look at it from the perspective where you are now, you look back at it and think, okay, that's a little different. Okay, so just the idea that Revelation wasn't some big totalistic channeling of a finalized policy, but instead Joseph just kind of trial and error figuring stuff out. That was one big thing. Figuring things out bit by bit. Any other big things stick out? You know, I think that the polygamy things are always interesting. You know, just the whole history of the development of polygamy from its early beginnings and stumbling. through how that would work and whatnot. That's always a thorny issue, I think. Yeah, yeah. And Richard Bushman did touch on it, but he didn't really go into the depth. There's obviously more. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, even what he did cover was kind of groundbreaking for a faithful Mormon to have written. In 2005, yeah, I think so. Okay, so that hits you, polygamy. Should we stop there? I mean, those are the ones that I think that come to mind. And it's probably been, you know, 20-ish years since I've read it. But you didn't have like a faith crisis, or it was just like, aha. Yeah, I don't know that I would describe it as anything of a real faith crisis, but it did make me think about things. It was a head-scratching. Yes. Instead of a crisis. Yes. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay, so should we jump, Katie, to what happened in your junior year? Sure. Are there other parts of your childhood, adolescence, or Mormon story that's important background to share before you talk about the big reckoning? I think the only thing that I want to mention is I kind of felt like I was a part of two different churches. Because there was the church on Sunday and at Mutual, and I never felt like I really belonged very well. like with the girls and I had a hard time feeling like I fit in and I feel like they weren't as like orthodox and strict with the requirements as, as like my school was. So I definitely felt like it felt like two different like expectations. So I never, I don't know. I had a hard time always feeling like I fit in and belonged into like my ward. You mentioned in your outline feeling anxiety at just even your baptism. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think. Yeah, this is a funny story. Before the night before I got I was baptized. I obviously you're taught that like children are accountable once they're once they're eight years old and you're baptized. And I felt like everything. There was no way that I could be perfect. Right. Like, obviously, I'm going to make mistakes. and it was very anxiety inducing to me to like have to sleep the night before and then like the next day I wake up and suddenly I'm like accountable for everything. So there was a lot of anxiety just along like worthiness, I think. That's kind of what I, and it sounds kind of morbid, but I was like, would it be better if I just like died, you know, before I'm eight? because then... I had those thoughts. I had those exact thoughts. It's like, why would I want to keep living? Like, die while I'm good, and then I'm guaranteed celestial kingdom. That is a very common thought in Mormon theology. Yeah, and I had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, I had it worse. I had the thought the... This is a terrible thought. I never wanted to do this, but this is what made sense to me purely logically. That But the most logically, the most charitable thing you could ever do is kill all babies before they turn eight. Because you'd be guaranteeing their salvation in the celestial kingdom forever if you just killed all children and babies before. Because there's the Mormon teaching that anyone who dies before the age of eight automatically goes to the celestial kingdom. Somebody said that at some point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, that's what we should do. But of course, I never did it. Huh? It's a little twisted. Well, I mean, it's just trying to make sense of the theology and like draw it forward. Anyway, I get you. Thank you. In a demented, twisted way. I get you. You mentioned also your parents not making you go to church. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. Yeah, so growing up, I think I was always pretty willing to go to church, and I wanted to be there because I felt like it was the right thing to do. And there were definitely a couple times, like as a teenager, that I just didn't go because I didn't want to. And they didn't give me much pushback. And it's interesting because now, I mean, I go to church with my family like at least twice a month. And I think that might be part of it. It's because it was never really shoved down my throat. You'd probably remember more. That's kind of what I remember, though. Yeah, I think we just tried to encourage you to go, let you know that we felt like it was important to be there. But at the same time, we're going to let you make your own decision, but we're going to make sure that you understand this is how we feel about it. I think that's what we tried to do. And I'm curious, Matt, as you're reflecting on Katie prior to her junior year, every parent wants their kid to be a righteous, faithful, strong testimony Mormon. I assume you did too. I definitely wanted that. Yeah, I mean, that's why you sacrifice and make all the decisions you do. Were you like, up until her junior year, like, we're doing it, we're doing it, honey, we're doing it. She's like Nephi in female form. Were you feeling good about her Mormonism? Yeah, I think generally we felt like she's turning out to be what we hoped she would be, you know? You weren't like, oh, she's a rotten egg, or like she's a layman, or she's, you know, kind of straying. You were feeling, she was on track. I think we felt very good about kind of the general direction. The trajectories. Yeah. Okay, okay. Okay. So what happened? Your junior year, what was the big thing? So I. And what year is your junior year? Oh, gosh. I graduated in 2020. So this would have been 2018. 2017, 2018. Okay. 19, 19. Yeah. Because 19, 20 would have been your senior year. Yeah. So around there. Okay. So around 2017, 2018. Yeah. I think so. Okay. Yeah. I. Pre-COVID. Yes, definitely pre-COVID. Okay. Okay. How it kind of started, because I think I naturally kind of questioned everything. And I was interested in just, I don't know, just exploring things. And so I read, this is kind of random, I guess going back to the teaching that like America is, you know, it's, I'm like trying to think of the right word. Inspired. Yeah, it's inspired. I mean, the Book of Mormon teaches that America was prepared by God for his chosen people, honestly. Exactly, yeah. So I guess going back to the whitewashing of history, I got a published copy of Columbus's diary. And so I read it, and there's obviously atrocious things. It's not good. Give us some examples based on your memory. There was just a lot of definitely human trafficking, sexual assault, sexual abuse. And racism. Yeah, definitely racism. yeah um and so i i read that and that's pretty bad sexual assault racism and human trafficking pretty bad yeah not great and colonialism i mean that's all yeah very bad all right so it was the first time that i had been like exposed to the other side of things and initially i was like well this can't be true because i was taught i was taught this like this version you know and I just knew that that stuff was wrong and so I I um once I learned that that actually like some of that obviously did happen it made me question kind of the narrative that I had been told and so I ended up I don't even remember how I got it or how I knew about it but I ended up reading like the CES letter and it's funny because I I read it you don't remember how you first heard about it? I don't remember. I don't remember. It's kind of a blur, to be honest. But I remember I read it during class. Like, I was on my phone during class. Let's slow down there. So, for those who don't know, CES Letter is a PDF in a website written and published by someone who's now been excommunicated while he resigned when he was facing excommunication. But he basically, Jeremy Runnels is his name. We've done entire episodes with him, but basically he was faithful Mormon, deaf, lost his, you know, learned about a bunch of church history, lost his faith, wrote all about it, and it's called cesletter.org. So that's just to give our Never Mormons a background for what we're talking about. So he published that around 2014, 2015 time period. So it would have been around for a few years when you discovered it. Yes. Yeah. And it just talks about polygamy, Joseph's folk magic, peepstone in a hat, book of Abraham stuff, race stuff. Like it basically hits the 10, 15 biggest challenges to Mormon church truth claims in one 80 page document. And it can cause people to lose her faith in literally a couple hours. So I'm just, I want to slow down. So why would you even, like, I feel like Mormons are often immunized or inoculated to say anything that makes you feel uncomfortable is that the adversary is dark force. It's Satan. So, like, I would think Mormon girl raised in Highland, Utah County, going to American heritage, you would see CES letter and go, no, that's Satan. That's evil. That's anti-Mormon. Not even going to read it. So was it your disillusionment with Christopher Columbus? They cracked you open, do you think? I think that's part of it. I think the other part is I was so confident in it. And I'm like, if something is true, then it doesn't matter what you're going to read or what information you're taking. What's true is true. So it's not going to change anything. I think if something is true, then it should be strong enough to withstand that. So I never really bought into the information control kind of aspect of it. I just believed that it would kind of stand on its own if it was true. And the C.S. letter starts with that quote, if the church is wrong, it should be harmed. If the church is true, it cannot be harmed. If the church is wrong, it should be harmed. Something like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, okay. I mean, that's solid logic, but it can take you hard places. So anyway. So you're a junior at American Heritage in Highland, Utah County, and you start reading about peepstones and polyandry and Book of Abraham. So what's that like? Yeah, I was done pretty quickly. With what? Just with the church. What? Yeah, like I just was like, okay, like the end. Wait, so you were raised for 16 years faithful in Utah, and your testimony evaporated in like an hour? I was fast. I don't remember, like not more than a week probably. Dang. I think he would remember more of like the specifics of what I was talking about at the time. but I think I knew what things were right and what things were wrong. What do you mean? Like I feel like I had my own moral compass and I just recognized that things were wrong and I couldn't comprehend or like I couldn't believe that those things would happen in like God's church. So then I was like, well, this isn't God's church. Let me ask you about that. So like critics of Jeremy Runnels and the CES letter would say, oh, no, no, no. the history isn't a problem. It's that Jeremy manipulated and deceived people and contextualized and framed the history in an intentionally deceitful way to rob people of their faith. But the facts themselves aren the problem It Jeremy deceitful cunning evil contextualization Did you then or have you now considered that it was actually Jeremy spin that took you out not the actual information Or did you find a way to sanity check or to verify the information Jeremy was sharing? Yeah, I definitely verified the information both with the Gospel Topics essays because all that information is in there. Like it's, it's not anything that's okay. That's really that different. And those were out by then. Yes. Yeah. Um, and then I definitely talked to my dad about it. Cause my, my dad was also very familiar with church history. So like that week you reached out to your dad. I, yeah. I mean, let's talk about that. Do you remember when in the year this was? Cause I remember some specific things, but I don't, I don't know when other things exactly happened. It's been like March. Okay. yeah like end of junior year so like march or april okay okay so you talk about like sometimes things are so intense in mormonism that you would be afraid to tell your parent i'm going to say already it's an amazing testament to your dad slash your relationship with your dad that if you're going to tell me you felt comfortable talking to him about this i'm going to say that's remarkable. You're already nodding your head, Matt. I'm grateful that she felt that way and I think still feel kind of feels that way. She's very open. Yeah, but that also means she felt safe, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, Katie. Yeah, I didn't even think about not telling him. I was like, I find this interesting. I want to talk about it. Who do I know that I trust that I can talk about it? That's amazing. That's rare and amazing. So I'm going to call that out. Thank you. Okay, keep going. So I've got to talk to Dad. Yeah. Were you thinking Dad will fix everything? I think, yeah, I think I was just curious if it was true, if the things that were in there, if they were true, and I was interested to hear his perspective and what he thought of it. That's, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay, cool. So do you remember what you told him? And then do you remember how? And then I want to hear both of your accounts of how you talk through the issues. I think the biggest things for me were polygamy, the book of Abraham, and then race in the priesthood. Those were the big three. Okay, wait. Polygamy, race in the priesthood, and the book of Abraham. The book of Abraham. Okay. And for those who don't know anything about those, give a one or two-sentence summary of each one. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess starting with polygamy, I was familiar that polygamy happened, but I wasn't ever told the specifics. And so specifically, like underage girls. No, we're talking Joseph Smith specifically. Yes. I mean, I would always be confused why people would argue to like, like with Joseph Smith, they'd say, oh, it's not like it wasn't sexual. Like it was just for, you know, the next life. When obviously Brigham, like he had 55 wives and I don't even know how many kids he had. Lots. So I'm like, why are you making that argument if it's not going to apply to the next prophet? Well, I'm hearing two things. One, you were never told about the details of Joseph Smith's polygamy. And this is not, we're not talking 1970s or 1980s or 1990s or even 2000s. We're talking late 2000 teens. you grow up in Utah to almost adulthood and often to adulthood, never once in a Mormon context ever hearing any discussion about Joseph Smith and his plural wives and, again, underage wives and the sister-mother pairs and the sister pairs and the mother-daughter pairs. And that's important. and then so it's that you weren't told and then the details and the bad excuses for it. So I think that's all really important. And it might be hard for people to just understand that that's even possible, but that just speaks to the bubble. I call it the bubble. But when you're raised Mormon, even in 2026, I just interviewed David Archuleta. And like he gets off his mission, knows he's gay, is trying to struggle with it. The November 2015 policy happens, which we're about to talk about. And he admits it. He was just like, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. And he's gay, you know, and he didn't want to even deal with it. So he like it didn't even really faze him. Yeah. Even though he's trying to figure out his life, it didn't faze him. He was gay. So, I mean, that's just an example of how strong the Mormon bubble is. I don't mean to belabor the point, but I think it's important. Yeah, and I have a specific memory. The only specific conversation I remember about polygamy in church was at a young women's lesson, and they kind of brought it up for a little bit, and then they were just like, oh, with the pioneers, too many men passed away, so you had all these women that didn't have a spouse. So that's why we practice polygamy. So that's what I had been told, and that's what I believed. And then when I learned that that isn't actually what happened, I felt like I couldn't trust what I had been told. So it kind of started unraveling everything. Yeah. And what's really confusing for people to really understand this whole timeline is prior to the Mormon and ex-Mormon Internet and, you know, Mormon Stories and CES Letter and Mormon Think and all the things that happened in the mid to late 2000s, all that led to the church coming out with the Gospel Topics essays. which then was the church finally starting to try and be honest about its history that then would make it so that maybe someone's inspiration in 2026 would be a little bit different so i will admit the church is better in 2026 than it was in 2013 and much better then than it was in 2000 but it's not that the church was forced to get better and um so you were on this early generation of people that had the gospel topics essays to validate the information available to the internet. And that's important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you polygamy book, a book of Abraham. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. I think the thing with the book of Abraham is it's just illogical. Like just that, um, just that we have, we don't have obviously all the papyri, but we have a good amount of them and we can see that the translation, it's not like accurate. And there is, you know, there are different apologetic arguments, but none of them could satisfy my questions. Yeah. They just didn't make sense. Yeah. There's, it is not a translation by any standard. You have to re, you have to redefine the word translation to claim that Joseph Smith translated those papyra into what we now have as the book of Abraham. So the apologetics didn't work for you? No. Okay. And then how has the church been racist? What are you talking about? Yeah, right. Yeah, that was really hard for me. I think a repeated theme in this is seeing the church implement policies and doctrines that harms people. And I just have a really hard time reconciling that with being God's, that he would be involved in something that would harm people. And so I think the racism is a big example of that. And once again, there's just no way to rationalize or explain that. So you're talking about Brigham Young's racist statements. Yeah. And I think it bleeds over even today. Like we still have remnants of that. Yeah. And the Book of Mormon, Lamanite curse. Yeah. Yeah. And the priesthood ban, those things. I was taught, like, I was explicitly taught that, like, Native Americans are, like, descendants of the Lamanites. Like, I remember being taught that. And cursed with dark skin. Yeah. Because their ancestors were wicked. Yes. Right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, I've already made this point, but let me just say it in a different way. Like, I think I bear the honor, the dubious honor of having spoken with more ex-Mormons than anyone in the world. And so I can tell you how this often goes. Well, I've already told you, daughter loses her faith. She's terrified to tell her parents and just hides it and never talks to them. That's what I would predict is the average experience. You obviously didn't do that. But the second thing I would say is the reason why most people wouldn't come out to their parent is because the most likely reaction of a parent is this is evil. This is terrible. Stop reading anti-Mormon literature. Put it back in the bottle. you're bad for even asking these questions. So, so stop, you know? And so, uh, and that would be a horrible thing to hear as a 16 year old, um, Matt, that's not how you reacted. So tell us what it was like for you and how it was that you made a miraculously non-average parental response as a believing Mormon to his daughter's faith crisis. The one kind of scene that I remember from all this experience was it was in April. So this would have been April 2019. The thing that I remember. It was when they reversed the 2015 exclusion policy. Let's go back. So tell everyone what the 2015 policy did, unless you want me to. You probably do a better job, but it was basically like children of LGBTQ parents couldn't be baptized and they had to like denounce their faith and they couldn't be baptized until they were 18. After denouncing their parents' marriage. Yes. It's like you as a Mormon kid can't get baptized until you're 18 because your parent is gay and when you're 18, the only way we'll let you get baptized is if you tell us you condemn and denounce your gay parents' legal same-sex marriage. Just mind-blowingly barbaric, horrible policy. Good intended, I think, but just disastrous in effect. Yeah. Yeah. So you didn't like that? I think I was okay with it. Like, I was like, okay, like, maybe this, you know, I had a hard time with it. But up until, because I think they reversed it in 2018, right? Like April? I think it was 2019. 2019? He would know best. Yeah, I don't know. It was like a little less than four years, but almost four years. Yes. Yes, and so once they reversed it, I think it just added accelerant to the fire. And what's wrong with changing your mind? Yeah. Well, if you claim that both are revelation, they contradict each other. That God did it in 2015 and then took it away in 20, and he happened to accidentally take it away after there was a massive public outcry and bad PR for the church, and a gazillion people resigned from the church. It seems like there's a simpler explanation. Which is? that they're just doing what they think is the right thing to do. They're doing the best they can. What's that? They're doing the best they can. Of course. That's a valid perspective. But, I mean, it can't be that God did both. Is that fair? Yeah. To me, it kind of goes back to the comment earlier about Joseph figuring out as he goes along. And I think it's the same thing, you know. No, that's valid. But we're not always raised with that expectation. We're raised to think, oh, God says do this. Okay, we'll do it. That's what God wants. So even though your dad had this mature perspective, I guess probably because you were partly a product of church education, the church probably didn't teach you. This is an important point. We raised our daughters, LDS, after we lost our Orthodox faith. We thought if we just kind of had our influence on our kids that they would absorb our Mormon worldview that we felt good about. The surrounding culture is going to be way more influential on your kids than you are as a parent. And so it doesn't matter how cool or progressive you were, Matt. Your daughter, it sounds like you picked up the church's perspective on prophets and leaders and infallibility. Yeah, I think the other aspect of this is we didn't talk about this kind of stuff until I brought it up. So it might have been different if my parents kind of explained their more progressive views on these things. Okay. Because I wasn't, I didn't know that he thought that or knew or thought about things that way. Yeah. I think also, I think you've described before, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you kind of also have a tendency to see things in black and white. Yeah. Rather than shades of gray. Like any good lawyer, right? Yeah. I'm kidding. Were you that way before law school? Were you a shades of gray guy before law school, or is that partly your reality? I think the shades of gray thing has been probably a progressive thing throughout my life, and I can't really pinpoint when did that begin. No. So it's hard to say. I think shades of gray is a healthy way to see life. I think so, too. Yeah. But, you know, not everybody gets that message. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you feel like you, do you feel okay with your dad's characterization that you were kind of black and white? Yeah, I still am that way. Whoa. Okay. So challenge us on the shades of gray thing. Yeah. I think, I mean, it just goes back to there are things that are wrong and there are things that are right. You know, like I just, I'm just not going to leave that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So when the church in 2019 reverses the November 2015 policy, after they'd called it doctrine, they then undid the doctrine. That made you feel what? I think that that's when I was like done. Like I had already kind of deconstructed my testimony, but I wasn't exactly sure what I, you know, like if I still wanted to be involved or what I wanted to do. But once that happened, I, yeah, I was, I was pretty much done. And I remember I called, yeah, I called you pretty, pretty quickly. I remember the phone call. You want to talk about that? Yeah. I remember the phone call. So it was over General Conference weekend, if I'm thinking of the same thing you are, April 2019. And I was actually in France with our second daughter, Katie's younger sister, on a school spring break field trip. Went there with a bunch of American French students to Paris. and I remember I was on it it was a Sunday it was that general conference Sunday Sarah and I, your sister were on a train going from Paris to go see some friends in Lille, I served my mission in France oh cool and so we were on that train ride and Katie called me and I think you were at probably my parents house for general conference and you just kind of, you know, let it all spill out that I can't do this anymore. And I just, I remember the feeling that I had at the time was just to let her know that I believe in her and, you know, I have confidence in you and in your ability to make a decision that's going to be good for you and your life and the fact that I'm your dad, but I'm not going to be here forever. You're going to live well beyond whatever I might live. You've got to make your own decisions. But I remember also, I think, talking about take your time. You know, there's no hurry to make a decision. Take your time to think things through. and I think this has been a theme with you and I for a long time is use your noodle God gave you intellect and use that I just think that gift of conscious and the ability to have a conscience and that to me is priceless I think above all to be true to what we feel within us is, is good and right. And I, I think I, that's what I remember from that phone call is just encouraging you to, you know, listen, listen to yourself, whatever it is that, that you feel like you ought to do. But also I, I think I encourage you to spend time in, in the book of Mormon, spend time in, you know, those things that I know have been an anchor in my own life, um, from my own experience that those things have, have been important and key to me and they still are. Um, but just encouraging you to, I think that those things could also be helpful to you. But I, I just, I tried to make sure that she felt love and confidence and it's all going to be okay. No matter what you decide or what you do, I'll still love you. You know, you'll always be my daughter. I mean I'm like beautiful and I was like said almost no Mormon parent ever you know what you just said right like I don't know in my experience that's like a 99th percentile healthy response but incredibly rare are you feeling do you want to tell us what you're feeling right now I just I feel gratitude You know, I just I just feel love, I think, for Katie. Just I I think I I think I got some of that same perspective on things for my own parents. And I think I've tried to live my life in a way where I never wanted my children to be afraid of me. I wanted them to feel that they could always come to me with anything or everything, you know, whatever was on their mind. I wanted them to feel like my wife and I would be a safe place, that they could come and we could help them through whatever that might be they might need. Wow. I'm moved. Thank you. And Katie, what was that like for you to get that response? And did you realize how rare that response was or not? I definitely didn't realize how rare that was. I also don't think I realized that until I moved out to go to college. And I started talking to my friends that had left the church, and a lot of them, they still feel like they can't talk to their parents about these kinds of issues. I think initially I was so focused on myself and like what I was feeling. And I definitely went through like the anger, the anger phase. And so I didn't in the moment, I didn't recognize how. Like thoughtful and like empathetic his response was. But, yeah, definitely looking back, I yeah, I appreciate it. And it's been like a repeated thing like that. that isn't the only conversation that we've had that's, that's been like that. It's so tricky. Cause like the fish doesn't know the fish is in water. So if you grew up with that dad and mom, you're going to be just like, Oh, that's just dad. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's exactly, that's exactly what it felt like. But that's why this story is so remarkable to me. Do you have other thoughts really quick? I don't know that I have anything else to share right now. I just, you know, just like anybody else I think I'm trying the best I know how parenthood doesn't come with any there's no instructions you pick up little bits and pieces as you go along you make mistakes along the way we've made plenty of mistakes but maybe this is one area where maybe we did something right you know okay so you didn't feel some huge sense of relief that he still loved you and you just knew that You knew beforehand you would be that way. Yeah, I don't think that that was ever in question. Yeah, because, like you said, there's parents that will disown their children or will put them in a wilderness camp for a summer, you know, or ground them endlessly or shame them. Worst of all, just shame them as bad and evil or guilt trip them into silence or acquiescence. Like, really, really painful, hard stuff. And I don't blame those parents because, like, if the church is true and the gospel is everything and the stakes are eternal, then I could understand why a Mormon parent would be intense about it or even hurt or angry or upset. Like, let me ask you this, Matt. Like, you raise a – it takes a lot of work to raise a Mormon kid as a devout member. So like, and it, I think even today you would say your kids eternal salvation is one of the most important things to you in your life. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So like how, like, did you feel fear or anger or disappointment? Not in who she is, but I just think about some of my own family members whose kids left the church. They gave their everything to raise their kids to be faithful Mormons and then their kids leave. And it's just like, why did why did we spend decades, all the sacrifices to them just have our kids leave? It's the emotions must be really hard underneath. Yeah. I definitely felt some of those, you know, fear, scared. What did we do wrong? And, you know, all those things I think that anybody would kind of feel under those circumstances. But what about worry for her soul? Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think it began to change my perspective, and it's probably still changing today, of how I look at the big picture. And I think as a believing Latter-day Saint, I think where I came from, sometimes we have too small of a view of what the picture really is, what God is really doing and how he's going to go about doing it. I think the picture is much broader than any of us realize. Or, you know, I just think there's and I think I'm beginning to see that. I think I think that's still a work in progress. What I think you're touching on is what I understand is being Leon Festinger's cognitive dissonance theory that if you're distressed about a situation. One of the most natural ways to cope with the distress is to think differently about the situation. And it sounds like you had a certain theology or cosmology of Mormonism that maybe was more constricted or limited. And what you've done is matured or developed your Mormon cosmology or theology in a way that helps you to feel less worried. Yeah. Or that you feel is more accurate. I mean, something, right? Right. Yeah, I think that's true. I definitely have a different perspective now than I did then. On like how heaven works and the judgment and the afterlife and all that. I just think, you know, I think I've always felt some things matter more than other things. I've always felt like the way that we treat other people is very, very high on the list. and a lot of the other kind of do's and don'ts and little bells and whistles I think you could describe them as bells and whistles of kind of the restored gospel those may come around but can we learn how to treat other people well while we're in this life and if we can do that I think that's maybe the biggest part of what we're intended to learn And I still, you know, I believe, you know, God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality, eternal life of man. I believe that, but I think I have a bigger, more expanded view of that might look different for different people. And the pathway may be very different for, you know, some people versus other people. But I think in the end, I just trust in God's goodness that he knows what he's doing. And we don't necessarily understand what the picture really looks like and how he's going to get it, how he's going to want it to be. But I just trust in his goodness. Love it. I mean, just the core of like treat people kindly, that's huge. But then God, trusting God, like if you're a believer, be a believer. But just trust God that he's more powerful and loving than a rigid, constricting Mormon theology interpretation might allow. Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's generally fair. I just have a, I think I have a more expansive view now of what, how we might get to the be all end all than I would have, you know, 20 years ago. I love it. All right. So, Katie, what was that like for you to have your dad? I mean, again, we've already said you were swimming in the water of his love anyway, so it must have just been like a Tuesday. It was just a Tuesday. So going back a tiny bit, Julie asked, this is just kind of funny, did you have a faith crisis at your desk at American Heritage High School? What was that like to lose your faith as a Mormon girl at your desk at American Heritage High School? in like Utah County. I think it was isolating because all of my friends were, were definitely like active and believing. And there is a risk, like this is probably a little irrational. Like it's probably not a hundred percent accurate, but I was worried that if I kind of stepped too far out of line, I would get in trouble at school. And there was like the possibility that I'd get suspended or expelled. So I felt like there were only a few people that I could talk to it, like talk about it. But you thought you might get expelled from high school if you talked about your Mormon doubts with other students? Kind of. And I'm an anxious person. Like, I'm not saying that that would have happened. Yeah, no, no. You just thought about it. That was a thought that I had. Sure. um because we i mean we had like an honor code like like byu and it was basically like for the for the strength of youth so pamphlet yeah it was basically that put into like a like a contract um so i think there were yeah there was definitely a lot of isolation and fear but i felt like i had an outlet to talk about it with my parents and so it wasn't debil like it wasn't debilitating and but it does set you off from your peers in a very orthodox mormon town which and the funny the funny part about this is i'm still really close friends with one of my friends from high school she has also since left the church and she actually like mentally left before i did but we never talked about it yeah that's a that's a bizarre aspect of mormonism that like I've met married Mormon couples where both lost their faith, but neither felt safe telling the other. They wouldn't talk about it. So they were in parallel, not believing, but in parallel, keeping it from their spouse and parent child. We're like a father lost his faith, but wouldn't dare tell his spouse or children. And the child loses their faith, but wouldn't dare tell their parents. and so they're both suffering in silence in parallel living under the same roof. That's kind of wild. It's nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nuts. Okay. So you had your dad as an outlet. What about your mom? You don't have to talk about her. Yeah, we can talk about my mom. She, and this is also like a repeated theme, so this is good to bring up. Initially, I think it was really hard for her to have those kinds of conversations, And so I'd say the first few years we didn't really talk about it much or she would like separate herself from the situation. Since then, we like, yeah, we talk about it with her too. I think me and my dad are a little bit more like I like to analyze things and like really kind of fall down the rabbit hole and think about things. and I think we're similar like that and so we can have I don't know we're just more interested in having that conversation but I feel the same way like I feel like I can talk to her and approach her about anything I'll just say from the standpoint of like all the people I've talked to because of the way Mormon culture is and particularly like the proclamation on the family I think the Mormon mom tends to take more personally choices that the kid makes because if the dad's primary role is to provide, he's working all the time. It's the mom that stays home to quote, raise the kids. So if the kid leaves or loses their faith or gets into trouble, oftentimes it the mom that feels that more deeply and specifically feels that whole what did I do wrong thing way more deeply than a dad might on average Is that fair Yes that totally fair I also think like I noticed that I have a hard time finding women that are active and believing in the church that are willing and familiar enough to talk about, like, polygamy and things like that. And I don't know if it's because they have, like, we as women have a different experience and it's more personal to us. Because I think the thing with polygamy that was so hard for me is that I just see myself in those women's shoes. And I think for women, it's harder to rationalize. And so they just don't want to talk about it or think about it. So like all of the active believing like members of the church that I've had conversations like this with, they're all men. Yeah. Another possible explanation or contributing factor, I think there's different brain types. And I'm not saying all women have the same brain type and all men have the same brain type. I'm not saying that. However, I've talked about two types of Mormons, validity Mormons and utility Mormons. A validity Mormon cares about whether something's true or not, like the evidence, the facts, the logic. A utility Mormon cares about whether it works, whether it makes you happy, whether it's good for raising kids. And sometimes men on average are more validity Mormons caring about facts and evidence and truth. And sometimes on average, I found women to be more utility Mormons about whether it's just working. And for me, that I think contributes to some of this dynamic, not all. Because there's exceptions always. Right. That makes sense. Yeah. I've seen that too. Okay. Okay. Okay. So your mom eventually all got to a good place. Okay. So what's it like? So did you, like, let's just say between your loss of faith as a junior and your graduation, did you still graduate from seminary? Did you hide this from your bishop? Did you just play along? How did that make you think? She's had some good bishops. Okay. She can tell you about them. And this would have been after Thomas S. Monson lowered the mission age for women. So you would have had to also face this decision of all your female peers going on missions and what you're going to do about all that, plus BYU or not. Like, yeah, so many things. I'm just trying to empathetically channel what you would have been thinking about your junior and senior years. Yeah. I so yeah going into my senior year I did still graduate from seminary I graduated from American Heritage obviously COVID threw a wrench and everything so I was only in school till March yeah yes um I do remember I I would push back like a little bit against teachers just because I was interested in having those kinds of conversations but I I was starting to feel more comfortable with talking about the doubts and things that I had. Yeah. What's the other part? Sorry. Yeah, so how did you, did you, what did you do about a mission? What did you do about BYU? What did you do about, like, all your friends going on missions, all that? Yeah, so for a mission, I never felt like I wanted to serve a mission, So that wasn't a big problem for me. I never really thought about it too much. My friends, we kept in contact. I think COVID threw a wrench in everything, so we kind of fell out of contact for a few months, probably close to a year. And then I just have, like, one really good friend from high school, and we still are in contact and see each other a lot. I think, I mean, a lot of things with high school, I just left in high school. College, I didn't think I wanted to go to college. You didn't stop going to church in high school? No, I didn't. And I still technically haven't stopped. Okay, cool. If she's home with us, she'll almost always come with us. I think just because she wants to be where we're at, you know? Yeah. And we have what we call the cool Sunday school class that she enjoys. I love this. I want to get to that. I love that. I love that. Okay. But before Julia wants to know, did you ever want to talk to your younger siblings or did you like not talk to your siblings to not infect them? Or did that get stressful with your parents? Them telling you don't ruin your younger siblings. I talked I definitely talked to my younger siblings I think my my younger sister that's in the middle she I'm not I don't want to speak for her but I know she's not at like an orthodox place either but I don't think she is as interested in like in actually like deconstructing everything and thinking about things so I think we just have different personality types but we definitely yeah we definitely talked about it and I've talked about it with my youngest sister too but she's quite a bit younger. Did you feel the urge to get them out of the church or did you feel, oh, let them have their own journey? I didn't feel like I wanted to get them out of the church. I feel like I would have this information and I'd be like, this is so crazy, I feel like I should tell you this, which I guess it could sometimes cause some problems, but it definitely wasn't motivated by trying to get them to leave. It's such an ex-Mormon impulse or doubting Mormon impulse to want to, number one, tell everyone. But number two, sometimes you feel angry and betrayed or hurt by things like patriarchy or racism or whatever. And you feel like you want to get people out. And I just think on average, sometimes that can be effective if that's your goal. I question the ethics of even that being your goal. But I also think it's rarely effective. it more often than not ruins your relationship and sometimes strengthens their faith. And so I think I just have to say I'm calling balls and strikes here. I think that was a wise, ethical approach. Yeah. I think that also goes into maybe why we have such a good relationship, because he was never forcing me or like putting the pressure on me to go back. And I try. I mean, I definitely am not perfect at it, But I tried to not want to convince people to leave. And so I think having mutual respect and just meeting each other where you're at and giving, you know, giving that person space to do what's best for them, even if it's different than what you would do. I think that that's the foundation. I think that's the theme of this whole episode, really. You know, just let people trust their noodle, trust their conscience. Yeah. show them love and, you know, support them on their journey, right? Yeah, yeah. I think that we can all be aware of the same information and come to a different conclusion. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. Yep. Amen, brother. Amen. I love that. That's just the world we live in. Yeah. Okay. So, all right, that answers the sibling question. So, yeah, what did you do post high school? Yeah. So I work with horses. I love like working with all kinds of animals. So I took that year. I worked as like a working student, which is kind of like an intern at a horse facility. So this is like equine assisted therapy? No, it's just like as a trainer. Like I just worked under a trainer just working with sport horses. I thought that that's what I wanted to do. So I taught a lot of lessons, mucked a lot of stalls, rode a lot of horses. and I got pretty burned out. It was way better doing that, though, than trying to do that COVID first year college. Yeah, it was great. Yeah, that hurt a lot of people. Took a year off and worked with horses. And it was really good because I, once again, like. It's like a mission. Yeah. It's like a horse mission. Well, once again, like my parents weren't like pressuring me to go into college, to go to college. And then I decided that I wanted to go on my own. And so I decided that I wanted to go into animal science with the hopes of going to veterinary school. So I went up to Utah State up in Logan. Go Aggies? Yes. I love it up there. Yeah. I love everything about Logan and Utah State. Me too. So I've been up there. Yeah, it's been like four years. Um, and what has Logan been for a non-belief? Cause Logan's still 75, Utah State's 75% members of the church, right? Yeah. I, so I think I have a little bit of a different perspective cause I went up there already, like I had lost my testimony already and I knew I didn't want to be involved in the church. So I never, I've never attended like a YSA ward up there, but I'll just say like, you can find your people. Like I've, I found a good group of friends up there and I, yeah, like I've never, I've never felt like I don't belong up there or I don't fit in. Like there, there are people up there. Did you go ahead and attend student wards? No, I never did. Oh, wow. Yeah. And you're still able to find a friend group. How do you find a friend group in Logan, not in your ward? Well, my, my best friend, she, we just met through mutual friends and I can't explain it. Yeah, and we're definitely at a very similar place with religion and church. I meet a lot of people. I'm still involved in horses, so I meet a lot of people at the barn and in classes. So, yeah, there's lots of places to meet people. Also, Avalon Hills is an eating disorder residential treatment center in Cache Valley, and they do equine-assisted therapy. Yeah. but also I know because I'm an Aggie nerd and went there for nine years and I did nine years of grad school at Utah State can you believe that? That is crazy if you're going to do it you may as well do it there it's great education but yeah at the time I was there they had a partnership with Washington State University for like a combined vet program but I've seen they're building a building like a vet sciences building now to have their own veterinarian degree Yeah, so I'm hoping to be there. So we'll see. She has applied to vet school in the fall, and we're waiting to hear back. That's so cool. It's so scary. Yeah, you might be in the inaugural class. Maybe. Well, I guess technically the inaugural class was this last year. Okay. But the second one. Yeah. Same thing. But yes. The penultimate is the second to last. Is it inaugural? Is that a word? Sure, yeah. What's the second inaugurated class called? I don't know. Okay, it doesn't matter. Okay, so you're on track, hopefully. Did you apply to other schools or just Utah State? Yes, I did. And it is so, that school is so competitive. Is it? And it's saturated. So Utah is my last hope for this one. We applied to three and we got two no's and we're waiting on the Utah State. Fingers crossed. Hey, life is long. You know what I mean? Yeah. I started my PhD at age 40. Okay. So I'm okay. Well, and it's not uncommon for people to take, like, multiple cycles. And so I'm sure if I don't, like, it's meant to be, and I'll find something to do for a year. It's okay if she doesn't get in this year. Yeah. She would be a great vet if they'll let her in. Okay. So really quickly, I want to get back to your relationship and Mormon stuff. But there is a, some would say stereotype or trope, others would say a legitimate question around like, can a teenager young adult in 2026 America be healthy and moral and thriving without religion? In other words, is modern young adult life so treacherous with social media, with cannabis, with alcohol, with, you know, STIs or unwanted pregnancies? Like, and I'm just being intentionally ridiculously apocalyptic. But like with all these challenges and all the anxiety and depression, like if you don't have religion, if you don't have Mormonism, you're just going to get you're going to become, you know, lost and a drug addict and a sex worker. I'm being extreme. But like, how have you found living what seems to be a healthy, successful life without religion at all? Have you done that? I don't think anything has changed. like I I think I'm like struggling to put it into words but it's like I have my moral compass and I know what's right and the church doesn't fit in that and it's not like that's not a reflection on me that's a reflection on on them and like the organization that's kind of how I view it I know that is definitely a worry I I do remember in high school one of my teachers he asked me he was like Like, so, because I think he was kind of pushing back of, like, well, what, like, why wouldn't you, like, murder someone? Or, like, what's going to keep you from, like, sleeping around? And I was like, I don't even, that feels like kind of an offensive question to ask. Because that's not even, I don't know. It just, I feel like I already have, like, my moral compass and I know what's right and what's good. And so it's, nothing has really changed. Yeah. And just for the viewers and listeners, I'm not. Obviously, lots of people in the world raise healthy, happy kids without Mormonism or religion. But I think as Mormons, many of us were conditioned to think or fear that you can't be healthy, happy outside the church. Whether the church wants us to think or feel that is different than the fact that many of us do. I know I was terrified to raise my kids outside of the church. Yeah. You know, even after I lost my faith. Okay. Now, I'm going to push back on you a tiny bit. Because you're saying the church didn't fit in your moral structure, but someone could argue the church gave you your moral structure. I think I would. I mean, my perspective is I think a lot of the foundation that she has probably goes back to that. But that's just my opinion. I mean, that's my observation. I'm not going to disagree with that. I'll just say that it's like hypocritical. Like, like, obviously there's good things that I took from it. And then there's things that obviously aren't good. So, yeah, I'm not going to disagree with that. What's hypocritical? Tell me what you mean by that word choice. Well, just like, I'm trying to think. And it's nice you were able to concede that. Because I think we, I think we just like we fought, we, we like, we become doctors and lawyers and PhDs and, and like Mormons, ex-Mormons can just be exceptional. people, Mormons and ex-Mormons. And then if you're ex-Mormon and you're really hurt by credible things, legitimate credible things oftentimes, it's just so easy to go, it's all bad. The church is evil. The church is terrible. The church needs to be destroyed. And I'm always just like, okay, I get the trauma. If you feel that way, it's legitimate because you feel that way. And, like, didn't it do a lot of good until it didn't? Like, can there be a mindset of I graduated kind of like I rode the raft across the river and I'll leave the raft for someone else but I don't need to destroy the raft it got me across the river I don't mean to be telling people that's what they need to conclude because other people have more traumatic experiences than me but I do I do think that's a legitimate mindset what do you think yeah no I think that that's true I think that that's true for a lot of people I think um I like totally just no it's true for a lot of people not true for everyone right but you're saying you're okay with this framing that maybe graduating yeah I think the church holds its members to a higher standard that they hold themselves to and that's that's what I see as hypocritical so yes like they make really good members and there's really good people in the church and that's probably partially or like mostly due to the church, the church's influence. But I don't think that a lot of like the historical leaders held themselves to the same standard. Yeah, sure. Yeah, that's fair. But also, it's just so complicated because I'm reading, I'm 30 episodes into my series on Joseph Smith. and there's two things that are undeniable for me. Well, several things, but one is how incredibly hard it was to build a lasting faith community. When I look at what Joseph had to deal with, it's impossible to not feel admiration and respect for his resilience and how hard that job was, but also like how effective he was because look at the scoreboard. It's a church that claims in or between 5 and 17 million members in 2026 worth half a trillion dollars that's affected a lot of lives. And like how many of us have that legacy? So on the one hand, I see that. And then on the other hand, of course, I see all the horrible, painful, bad things that he did. And so it's the only thing I can conclude is both. And yeah, I think it's impossible and inspiring and a lot of bad things happen. And that's just I almost want to say that's life, you know? Yeah, I think there has to be room for both. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm not saying marrying 14-year-olds is in any way acceptable or mother-daughter pairs or polyandry, marrying other women married to men. Like, I'm not excusing that. You're saying that's fair. You're agreeing with me? Yeah. You know you're agreeing with John DeLitt right now? I can't excuse any of those things either, you know. But I think it's, I like the perspective of looking at it as that everybody that you look at in organizations, I think, kind of fall under the same umbrella, is there's going to be good and bad to anything. Even really bad. Is that fair? Yeah. I mean, some people are going to have a bad experience that may harm them seriously. Like child abuse or child abuse cover-ups. You're going all the way with that, right? Yeah. I mean, there are some things that just should not be. Yeah. But on the other side, you know, there's a lot of good that happens as well. And I think that's true of anybody or any organization that we look at. I think we, you know, we ought to get away from cardboard cutouts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, for me, part of what bridge, you know, this is the bridge building themed episode and bridge building doesn't mean everyone has to arrive at the same conclusion. It means we need to learn to talk about hard stuff, get better at talking about hard stuff. And that's what y'all model for me. So that's part of what bridge building means to me is getting better about talking about hard stuff. I think it also means seeing the gray or seeing the multicolor of things and not having everything be either divine or evil, like good or bad. It's being able to say, what's in this mix, in this stew, can we step back and acknowledge the good and the bad? If we're a believer, acknowledge the bad. If we don't believe anymore, still acknowledge the good so that we're not in our mindset always so polarized. Because I think polarization is harming relationships and society. What do you think? Yeah, I agree with that. I think one thing that comes to mind is because I go to church pretty frequently with my family and my parents. There's ex-mormons that are like, I'll never step in that chapel ever again. How is it that you're willing and able to step in a church that you just have no belief in theologically? And the members know where she is and she's welcomed. I love this. How is this possible? I don't know. No, but I mean like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess the first thing that comes to mind, because I'll have people like in the ward that will come up to me and they'll have kids that have left the church and they just like express gratitude that I'm there. and they're like, oh, you need to talk to my kid and get them to come here. And I'm always kind of taken aback by that because I'm like, I feel like you should, the reason I'm here is because my parents talk to me and know exactly how I'm feeling. And I want to be here. I'm not doing it to gain approval or any sort of reward from them. I just want to be here to spend time with them and support them. But, yeah, I think it works because I'm candid and, like, I think everybody knows where I'm at with things. So you're out to your – is this your home ward you attend? The one you grew up in? Yeah. In Highland? Yeah. But you're open with everyone, but it has to be respectful. Yeah, it's super respectful. Yeah, yeah. So you're not trying to take other people's faith away when you go to church? No. And I think I'm pretty quiet. Like, occasionally, I'll make a comment. Because we have, like, a Sunday school class that is, is it gospel doctrine? Yeah, I mean, it started out as a gospel essentials class. But, you know, we do kind of follow just the typical gospel doctrine lessons now. But it's a small kind of intimate class. We just meet in the bishop's office, and there's as many as we can cram in there. People like to come to this class, but I think everybody knows each other well and where they stand and where they're at. And they recognize that people are in different places, you know, faith wise. And Katie's very welcome there. And, you know, people will solicit. What do you think about that, Katie? You know, occasionally it's a neat place to be. I mean, that's, again, just like I was expressing marvel at your reaction to Katie. That's like what I want every Mormon ward to be. And I'm so thrilled to hear that it's possible. Are you feeling emotional again? I'm just grateful. Of what? I love our ward. You know, I love, I just. You have a special ward. We do have a special ward. You've been there a couple decades now? Yeah, we've been there 20 plus years. since Katie was one when we moved into that neighborhood there. Yeah, wow. So you've built up this capital with this ward community that's really matured in a way where the ward is healthy. I think so. Relatively. Yeah. Everybody's got their, you know, like I said, any organization there's always going to be good and bad, but by and large, I sure get a lot out of that ward and neighborhood. They're wonderful. I love that. I want every ward to have, it's like, I desire all to receive it. You know what I mean? I love this. I want this. I want every Mormon ward to be like this. I don't need people to leave the church or lose their faith. I want people to be able to stay or leave and be respected. Yeah. Wherever they're at. Right? Wherever they're at. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, let me ask you this question, Matt. Like, there's this credible fear that believers naturally have that doubt or history or information or criticism is a virus that spreads and infects people. Now, obviously, your daughter doesn't believe anymore, and it hasn't infected you or your wife. So, obviously, that's a bad metaphor, although it's not a bad metaphor because viruses don't take everyone down. Some viruses get people sick. Some viruses don't. And I'm sure, Katie, you don't like the idea of truth or your perspective being viewed as a virus. Is that true? Yeah. But, I mean, you know, go with the metaphor for a second. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. From a believer standpoint, doubt or history or criticisms of the church are like a virus. How do you, and I would even say your ward members, resist, do you conceptualize it that way? Or if you don't, how do you frame it so that you don't treat her like the enemy? You know what I mean? You or your ward or your wife. With your kids is another example, right? So many parents are like, you need to stay away from your younger siblings because you'll infect them with the doubt virus, right? But you don't, it just doesn't seem like you see it that way. How do you see it? Yeah, I mean, I think everybody has felt that at some point. but um okay so you have felt that i think yeah i think we've all felt that at some point but to me that when i when i when that feeling does creep in i think it's important to recognize that's coming from a place of fear and i i think generally speaking when we do something motivated from fear that's typically not going to be a good thing um and so i i think i just i typically choose to look at it as, you know, most people are going to be exposed to these ideas somewhere, somehow, anyway. I just feel like we should, you know, let's do this in a way where we can, I think the overriding principle to me is let's love people, Let's try to not be afraid. You know, help people where they're at. And let them make their own choices, whatever those choices may be. Continue to love them, appreciate them, no matter what they choose. I think that's, to me, that's what the gospel of Jesus Christ is actually about. To not be afraid. To not be afraid. It's almost like Jesus' argument in the preexistence. Like, let people choose. Let people choose. Right. Is that right? I think so. Yeah. OK, let me read you a quote. Julia. Julia comes from an LGBT standpoint. And so she's like, man, I wish more parents would respond to their Mormon LGBT kids like, you know, like Matt did to her daughter who lost her faith. Right. But so Julia shared this quote. And let me be clear. This is a quote from former prophet Russell Nelson. And I'm not trying to get you to talk ill of the Lord's anointed or even trying to put you between this quote and Nelson. But I do at least, I mean, there's two possible options. Well, three, I agree with that quote. Or B, I think Nelson's wrong. Or C, I read that quote differently than maybe some would. So let me read you the quote from former prophet Russell Nelson. And then I want to hear your reaction to it. Is that okay? So I think this is a quote according to Julia from Nelson. While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. In other words, there needs to be conditional love. That's how some would interpret that quote. Love should be conditional. In other words, and I'm saying how someone might interpret this. Like, no, no, no, I'm going to be stern with my child or kick them out or make them feel bad because love is conditional. Love is, you know, you do what's righteous and love is a consequence of that. But there needs to be tough love where you're mean or harsh or strict or punishing because love is conditional, not unconditional. So, yeah, how do you respond to that? Yeah, I don't know that I've heard that quote before. It would be interesting to hear the context, you know, when it was given and whatnot. But, I mean, my feeling is love ought to be enduring. And, you know, I don't know that it necessarily should have conditions on it. I mean, there are times when we do need to correct or discipline or, you know, And it's a fine line, and I think we mess it up half the time as parents when we're trying to do that. But I think at the end of the day, you really want your child to understand that no matter what, I'm going to love you. No matter which path you choose, I feel for Julia. You know, just kind of that background of if I had a parent, if I had a child that was struggling with LGTB identity and what do I do with this? I mean, I would hope the way I would respond would be you're going to do what you're going to do. But I want you to know that I love you no matter what. And I want you to never forget that. That's what I would hope that they would feel. julie said she's crying so because i think that's not the most common response and i'm not saying mormon parents are bad i just think they've got that fear of like oh my gosh if they're gay then blah blah blah blah blah so i've got to act in a in a harsh way yeah it's follow thought i i i mean I can see where that comes from because I know I've felt the fear myself just in the things that I've been through. And again, I have to catch myself and recognize that's coming from a place of fear. And that's I shouldn't take counsel from my fears, you know. Well we going to plaster this all over the tick tock and instagram and facebook because julie just said he such a good dad that what julie is saying so katie knows all my thoughts she knows i'm not i'm not perfect i don't think she'd bring you on here if she was obsessed with your faults i think the other thing about this is because because he gives me space and like understands where i'm coming from i'm able to understand like where he's coming from and i totally like i totally understand why why mormon parents um you know like they panic and it is out of fear and i i think it often helps like if if you're having a communication or like a conversation with your parent and you're like explaining and i've asked him this like does this make you feel this way like i'm trying to understand how it's affecting him and i i don't think i was interested in understanding how it affected him until it'd been like a couple years that I had like deconstructed everything. Yeah, I don't, because he just always gave me the space and the encouragement to communicate how I was feeling. And I feel like I didn't do the same thing for him until after I had kind of already thought through everything. Yeah. And I'm just going to, I'm going to now speak to believing Mormon parents out there. And I know you may be reluctant to take any advice from, you know, Mormon Voldemort. But trust me, I've spoken to tens of thousands of ex-Mormons. And the ones who resign from the church, hate the church, would never want to ever go to church again, and who would like be a torment to their family relationships. Almost always they do that when they feel rejected by their parents and demeaned and mistreated and unloved. we create angry, bitter, you know, disruptive ex-Mormons by how we treat them. And I want you to, you know, rewind if you need to or watch this episode in full at your own leisure. What did you just hear? Katie doesn't believe anymore. And she's got a great relationship with her parents. She doesn't try and take the faith away of her siblings. She is still a member, and she still attends half of the Sundays of a given month. Why? Because her parents didn't reject her, didn't shame her, didn't make her feel terrible, but said, we trust you, we're not going to act in fear, and we're going to let you have your journey, and we're going to love you. What? Unconditionally, within reason. I just think that's the answer for you, you believing Mormon parent. You want the best outcome with your doubting or disbelieving child. The best answer for you and for them is love and acceptance and charity. I think it's the best outcome for everybody. Am I wrong? I think that to me is the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes. I think that's it. It's also Jesus, right? Keep going. How so? How did Jesus? So like Greg Mattson or Cardinalis or whatever, like Mormon apologists would say, no, Jesus said, I come to divide mother from child. They can find quotes in the New Testament. They like mock Teddy, but they call it Teddy Bear Jesus. And they say, no, no, Jesus came with a sword and he turned the tables so you could be harsh. and I'm not again asking you to address my characterization of them and I don't mean to say that what I just said is really what they think. I'm exaggerating to set up a point, which is what's your understanding of Jesus? Given that some would say he flipped tables, cursed an olive tree, and said he came to divide mother from child, How do you interpret the gospel of Jesus Christ as it relates to this scenario? That's a good question. I mean, I feel like we have enough of the divisiveness already in the world. And I just feel like if we're going to work on something, let's work on loving each other, treating each other better, understanding one another. I just think better things come from taking that approach than any alternative. And that approach is what? To try to love. To just try to love and understand, listen. Go one level deeper on what love means. Like I'll tell you, kindness, trust, connection, closeness. Like keep going. To me, it also has to do with just acceptance of the reality of the way things are, that I'm okay letting Katie or anybody else make their own choices, and I'm not going to nitpick you over those choices. You know where I stand. You know what my standards are, and it's okay that yours are different. I think that's a part of it. I think it's also like validation, like feeling validated and understood and that people believe you. Like even if we disagree, like you believe that I'm being authentic and true to myself. And I think that that's the biggest impactful thing. Thank you for sharing that, Katie, because that's like one of the most stereotypical tropical tropes that believers tend to want to put on people who lost their faith, that they never believed in the first place, that they wanted to sin, that they were just looking for an excuse to sin, or that they're bitter, or that they're angry, because ultimately those are all insulting. But what's even worse is you're ignoring that so many people leave the church as a matter of conscience, as a matter of love, as a matter of courage, as a matter of integrity. In other words, they're almost living truer to the values their parents or their church gave them. It's an expression of the values, the positive values they got from their parents or their church. Am I putting those words in your mouth? No, I agree 100%. And I would extend that. Those are the values that I got even in my LDS private school. Like, yeah, that's just what I was taught. And I, I like implemented those. And also love for truth. Like I, when I lost my faith, I basically said Mormonism led me out of Mormonism because it taught me truth matters. I'll say what is truth. Tis the fairest gem. Do what is right. Let the consequence follow. And that's, that's how I ended up here. You know what I mean? Honestly, I still haven't tried beer. Like it's not because I wanted to sin. You know what I mean? It's, that's not it. Yeah. And it's not because I didn't believe, because I believe. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. But also, I'm not telling you your beliefs are illegitimate. That's probably nice, right? It is nice. Yeah. I think just that we can all recognize that, you know, we can come to different conclusions. We don't feel a need to push each other, you know, that we can just, we can understand each other and just live together in peace and harmony. Why can't it be that way? Yeah, like, why can't it be that way? Like, why is this so hard? You know? And I think part of the reason it's hard is we don't have enough role models. And I think that's why I just love today's episode. Like, you could say after 2,100 episodes, I'd be bored of this stuff. But I've got, like, hair standing up on my arms because this is so powerful and so beautiful. Yeah, I said it. so what else do you all want to say about where you are now and and counseling to non-believers and to believers i think we've done a lot of counseling along the way but i want to give you each a chance to give advice to quote your own side or to the other side or any other parts of your story you want to share i want to give you all the time to finish whatever you wanted to sure. Or we can wrap it up, whatever you want. I mean, the, the, the only thing that comes to mind, and I think I've already said this before, but you know, it, from the perspective of, of a, of a parent who's just trying the best that they know how, um, just, uh, I, I, and I, I continue to try to do this. I'm not perfect at it, but to just try and take things from a perspective of faith. Don't take counsel for my fears. Let people have their own choices, you know, and try and give them good advice. We still do this. I still give Katie advice on here's what I would do in a given situation or whatnot. and I think she often will listen to what I have to say but she's going to make her own decision with any given thing and I just need to be okay with that and I need to be able to step back and say at the end of the day she's going to be her own person she's going to make her own path and I'm going to be dead and gone someday and she's going to continue on hopefully she'll have some kids of her own one day and I would hope that she would be able to instill and teach them things that would be valuable to them. You know, that she might have an experience similar to maybe what I've had as a parent. I mean, there's nothing like just trying to be a parent and raise kids the best you know how. That's all you can do is just the best you know how. That's all I can do. amen Katie I think it's interesting because listening to him talk about that I think the same things are applicable on the other side of the spectrum and just I think the biggest thing that I've learned is the importance of validating the other person even if we disagree and just recognizing that they are they're doing like the best that they can and they're being authentic to themselves And even though we might disagree, we don't need to, like, change each other. We don't need to try to convince each other of, you know, our different perspectives and just giving each other room to do that. I also think it's important to continue to have room to change. Like, I think our relationship has definitely evolved and a lot of things have changed since, like, it first started. And I think that's just a part of the process. Love it. Yeah, like you can reduce it to the same rules for both sides. Validate, love, respect, empathize, and differentiate, but stay in connection. Build on common beliefs, but also learn to talk about differences and learn to be okay with differences. It really is the same rules for both sides, isn't it? It is. Yeah. It is. And I think believers sometimes feel just so hurt or shamed or guilty that someone lost their faith or defensive. and then, you know, people who lost their faith feel angry or like they have to justify or accusatory or, you know, like they want to be understood. And I think that drives a lot of the unproductive conversations. Let me ask you this, and Matt, it's okay if you're just like, yeah, let's not go there because I don't even know if it's the right thing to go. But like, I love the idea, believe it or not, of believers having role models for knowing the difficult parts of the church, the history stuff or the, you know, but still believing. Do you want to share like picking up three or five topics and say, I know that people find X thing to be a problem. Here's how I work that through in my mind. Do you want to do that or would that pollute what's otherwise a perfect, literally a perfect episode? You can go through any of those that you want. And I, you know, I think I'm very, I'm relatively familiar with the facts as they stand. But to me, at the end of the day, you know, earlier in the conversation, you talked about kind of the utilitarian versus the, you know, the truth side thing. And to me, there are very few things that I know. And the things that I would be comfortable saying I know are the things that I know from my own personal experience. And those things have to do with just kind of guidance in my own life, strength that I receive from spending time in the scriptures, doing the things, you know, that should do as a faithful Latter-day Saint. But there are a ton of things that I don't know, but I believe or I hope. And that's kind of where I am. You know, I just feel like there is enough to keep me rooted in the gospel and able to choose to believe that holds me there. and it's definitely faith-based. I mean, to me, there's a balance between the things that would support and the things that would say, no, that's all just a bunch of garbage. And in my mind, I've felt like it has to be kind of closely balanced for there to be a real choice there for me personally, to be able to have a real decision to be able to, and what I do is I choose to believe. In spite of the things that don't make sense to me, that I don't totally understand, but in spite of those things, I think because of the good things that I've seen flow into my life, that's kind of where I'm at. And if you don't mind, and I know, Katie, you're about to say something, so I want to hear, but let me just say quickly, I heard two things there. One is what I call epistemic humility, where it's like, you know, this is where I tend to believe, but I'm open. I don't have this certainty. And that allows you some flexibility, I think, which is quite useful, allows you to bend and not break belief wise. and then the second thing I heard is that you lean more towards a utilitarian belief than one that's dogmatic I think I probably do and that's again I think that's a solid way because theology, doctrine, history are understanding it but they all change there's plenty of things there that can make you scratch your head and think that doesn't make sense to me I don't really understand that Okay, I love that. I'm okay with that. I mean, that really answers any specific issue. We could take issues one by one, but that framework can really explain almost any problem into not being so much of a problem, right? I think so. I think so. Just to recognize that there are things that we're not going to understand, that are not going to make sense, that are going to seem wrong. and some of them could very well be wrong because we're all humans. Prophets are human. Sometimes we tend to put them on a pedestal, but we probably do that more than we should. That they are human beings and they're going to make mistakes just like the rest of us. Yeah, I think that's the reality of the situation, in my mind anyway. all right your turn kitty um yeah the the one thing i was gonna say is he i think he's more familiar with church history than i am oh um which is interesting wow yeah um really i'm older yeah no i think that he is so i think seeing him that he's put in the time and effort to like research these things and really think about it i think adds to like his credibility and i can take him at his word. Oh, wow. So I think that that's been very... That's remarkable. Yeah. Because a lot of believing Mormon parents, for example, just don't want to learn. Don't tell me. Don't infect me. Yeah. I don't want to hear about it. Because when you dig into any of those topics that are troubling, it's unsettling. To me, anyway, that's been my experience. It's unsettling. It's heavy. and you kind of have to wade your way through it. But each time I've done that, I come back to a point of I'm okay with the big picture. Even though there are things that don't make sense to me, I can't understand that. But the big picture, I'm okay with. Yeah, and it's weird because, again, I've mentioned this a lot, but I'm reading John Turner's biography on Joseph Smith, And it's not making me believe more, but it is making me have more empathy and compassion and respect for Joseph Smith than I had before. So in other words, it makes me feel more favorable towards Joseph Smith, more empathetic towards the church, and even towards its modern leaders, when you just really see in detail how it all happened and unfolded. It's funny, and it's interesting, and it's miraculous, and it's tragic, and it's terrible. And guess what? That's a lot like my life. Yeah. You know what I mean? To see any individual more as a man or woman with all of the good and all of the bad and just every, you know, nobody is a cardboard cutout. And again, people are going to be like, yeah, but he dated 14, you know, he had sex with 14-year-olds or he, you know, was a predator. And I'm just like, yeah. And the more you're empowered, the more you're susceptible to those things on average. And that's part of the human journey, not to excuse it. It's horrific. Abuse is terrible, horrific, inexcusable. And look at Jeffrey Epstein. Like pretty much every powerful, important person in the United States was freaking in his Rolodex, right? Because power leads to a lot of bad stuff. And Joseph had power not to excuse him and not to say everyone who has power is a predator because they're not. Okay, Katie. no yeah I agree that makes a lot of sense and I yeah yeah I'm trying to think what okay no no it's good it's good you're doing great you're doing great okay so just to kind of wrap things up this has been really powerful I really love how things are so okay let me ask you this Katie is there so like there have been like Like, I, in a moment of vulnerability, well, I thought, you know, I've lived in my neighborhood like seven or eight years, never attended my ward. Like, I'd like to kind of get to know some of my neighbors and, like, just see what church is like again and, you know, not become a member in good standing again. But, like, I'd kind of want to visit my ward once just to see what it's like and to meet people and to be friendly, right? Just, again, in the spirit of bridge building. so I reached out to my bishop I still haven't heard back, it's been like months but like so many ex-Mormons were furious at me saying I was disgusting saying I was a traitor but you're going to church so let me take it one step further for you is there any world where like let's say you fall in love with someone and they're faithful you're like oh you know we love each other okay you're saying no already I don't Yeah, that wouldn't work. What? What wouldn't? I couldn't. Yeah, I don't think that, like, my future partner, I don't think I could have a relationship with somebody that is active and believing in the church. Okay. I don't know why that's the line because I'm thinking about it and I'm like, well, I have that relationship with my parents and, like, a lot of my family. but I think I think it would be really difficult for me because I think I would well and I guess this goes back to it I feel like I would always be trying to drag him out and he'd always be trying to drag me in and that just wouldn't work I get it well what's kept you from resigning? like still going to church but resigning your membership that's a great question I don't know yeah I'm not sure I've thought about it a few times I've come close a few times. I just haven't. I think it feels like a big step and it feels final. I also, maybe some of it is like a subconscious worry of how it would affect my family, like if they would feel like how that would negatively affect them. and just for me personally I don't think resigning my name would do I don't think it would have a big impact on me so I just haven't done it I mean it's not like the church takes you out of their database they still keep you in their database right? it's literally just a field on a record in a database but I will say that like I'm in a lawsuit with the church right now they're trying to sue us or they're threatening to sue us And we had a mediator yesterday who was Catholic from Dallas. And she's like, oh, yeah, I stopped going to church a long time ago. But she would have never thought to resign. Like in most Christian traditions in the United States, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, evangelical even, if you lose your faith or leave your church, you don't resign. You just don't go. Or maybe you go on holidays. But, like, this idea of needing to resign or feeling the need to resign is actually pretty uniquely Mormon. Yeah. For good or for bad. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's just unique. There's no rule in religious American life that says you have to resign when you stop going or don't believe. And you haven't stopped going. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, that's interesting. I think maybe part of this is, too, because I know a lot of people resign so the missionaries don't, like, contact them or, you know, they don't have, like, family members. They don't get bugs. And that, like, hasn't been a problem for me. So it's not causing me any issues. So that's probably part of it too. Yeah. And I always just need to give these disclaimers. If you hate the church, that's valid. If you want to resign, that's valid. If you never want to step into a church again, that's valid. Like part of what we're saying here is that trust your experience, be kind, but do you. And every choice, every path deserves love and respect. and we're just all going to do better when we treat each other that way. So just because I'm trying to shine a light on other possibilities, some that are bridge-building and less polarizing, less extreme, more nuanced, does not believe that even I think there's any one right path or preferential paths. I just think everyone's got to just have their journey. I think that's just it. And I just want to show lots of different types of journeys instead of just a particular journey. That's all. In any direction, yeah. Okay. Well, I will say that this may be my favorite sort of like mixed faith family episode I've ever recorded because we got it in two hours. We've got great video and audio quality, and y'all were just fantastic. And people love the parent-child dynamic. And by the way, we've done phenomenal parent-child episodes that I don't want to say this is my favorite, but like I do love that we got it under two hours, and I think that's actually almost unheard of. Anyway, thank you so much to both of you. Thanks to you, Matt, Todd, for being willing to come into Voldemort's den, you know. Oh, you're welcome. this is actually the second time that we've met you won't remember this thrive right but we met at thrive was it like 2022 yeah which thrive was that do you remember it was it the south palace it was at the provo oh uh library okay i'll remember that one yeah that was in the fall of 2022 yeah she wanted to go she asked me if i'd come with her and i sure i'll go with you That's amazing. It was a neat experience. That's when Tiffany Rowe gave a keynote at and Nemo was there. Is that right? Yeah. That was a good one. That's cool. Yeah. Well, good to see you guys again. And by the way, there is a Thrive coming up in St. George. I don't know if this will air before or after, but, yeah, there's going to be an amazing Thrive in St. George in the later part of this February 2026. Sam Young's going to be there. Jeremy Ronalds is going to be there. Brandy Bell is going to be there. I think Julie Hanks is speaking. Greg Prince is speaking. So many amazing presenters are going to be there. So if you want to have a great relationship with your believing parent or disbelieving child, go to Thrive, right? Invite them to come with you. We were not the only ones there who were you know, a believer or a non-believer. It was fun to see that there were others in that same situation besides just us. Yeah. And yeah, you can check out Thrive at Thrive Beyond Mormonism ThriveBeyondReligion.com Check that out if you want to host your own Thrive or attend another Thrive. This is not a Thrive commercial but since you mentioned it. Yeah, it was influential and impactful. That's great. All right. And also, Katie Todd, I think you more than anyone made this happen because you applied and did the video with your dad and all that. I hope it was good for you. Yeah, no, this has been awesome. Oh, good. Yeah. Well, Julia says this episode is so good. So you've got the John and the Julia thumbs up. But really quickly, please subscribe right now on YouTube and Spotify. That really helps. We really want to get to 300,000 subscribers. Thanks to everyone who donates to make Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation possible. And if you're not a donor, our ad revenue is in decline for whatever reason. I don't really care, but it does make things financially tighter. And our donation revenue is in decline because I'm not harping on it all the time. I'm just getting tired of all this fundraising. So if you value this content and you want to see it continue, the way to do that is to go to mormonstories.org slash donate and become a monthly donor. Enough said. Also, if you want, if you think you've got a great bridge building episode or a great, interesting Mormon story, we would love to have you apply. We do get over a thousand applicants, but we only find about 50 a year that we feel like are going to be really good for our audience at the time. So we have a low acceptance rate, not because we don't get great stories, but because we're looking for stories that are going to connect in a special way. And there's a lot of duplication and a lot of stories that we've told a lot. And so if you feel like you've got a unique Mormon story, if you're a great storyteller and you feel passionately about your Mormon story, just go to mormonstories.org. slash apply. You'll fill out a quick form, record a three minute video. If you want to know the secret to getting accepted, it's to be a great storyteller with a great story. Um, and, uh, to demonstrate that you watch and listen to enough Mormon stories that you understand why our audience would find your story valid valuable. If you're just like, I had X thing happened and I I think it's an important story, but you really can't don't have a sense for how common your story is or what might be exciting or needed or unique about it. Knowing our audience, then, you know, you might not. But but in this case, like how often do we have a believing parent willing to come on with a nonbelieving adult child, come into the Voldemort's den and really tell they keep. Why are you laughing? you when I say Mormon. Why do you keep laughing when I say Mormon? It's obvious. I'm just speaking facts here. Sorry. So, yeah. So, like, this is a cool story and hopefully you can see why we picked it. Like, I think it's pretty obvious today why we picked this story. So if you've got a story, if you're a storyteller like this, I don't want to sit too high of a bar. Apply. MormonStories.org slash apply. We would love to consider. And if we don't consider you, it's not because you're not an amazing storyteller or don't have an amazing story. It's because we get so many applications, we can't choose them all. So don't feel bad. We're doing our best and, you know, take a risk. But who knows, maybe your application will lead to good things, even if you're not accepted, or we may reach out to you later, or you apply another time with a different angle. You know, lots could happen in this world. But please apply if you're interested. Thanks for your support. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.