The Gut-Muscle Axis: Lose Weight, Heal Your Gut and Build a Super Body with Dr. William Davis

We know, for instance, with very good evidence that regardless of the method used, if you reduce calorie intake, it could be a diet program, could be a meal replacement program with reduced calorie meals, could be a bariatric procedure or reduced stomach volumes like lap-band gastric bypass. It could be a pharmaceutical that reduces your interest in food and induces satiety with very little food, but there are all variations. When you reduce calorie intake, you will lose muscle. Well, welcome back to the podcast. Great episode today with New York Times best-selling author Dr. William Davis. We are talking about the gut muscle axis, how to lose weight, heal your gut and build a super body. If you don't know Dr. William Davis, he wrote the book Wheat Belly, which was a number one New York Times best-seller, a phenomenal book, and he also wrote the book Super Gut. And he reveals in this book how muscle mass is the missing link in most weight loss strategies and how modern approaches such as calorie cutting and weight loss drugs interrupt the body's natural systems and often accelerate muscle loss and disrupt gut health, setting the stage for weight regain and chronic illness. So again, his new book is Super Body. He is a board certified cardiologist. So he comes from the cardiology, mainstream medical background, but he has some strong opinions about modern medicine and what most cardiologists out there are doing that he expresses in this interview. You guys are going to enjoy that as well. He's super opinionated and he's super just full of personality. And so I really enjoyed this interview. Lots of great information, really going deep on a lot of the key microbes that help support your gut, your metabolism, that help get rid of things like SIBO that these gut microbes help they secrete bacteria, Cytans, which are natural antibiotics that kill off the bad bacteria and they help reduce the amount of microbial endotoxin, LPS, reduce inflammation in the system. He talks about a, he calls it a yogurt non-yogurt that recipe that he makes with specific human organisms like lactobacillus ruderi, which he talks a lot about in this interview. So you guys are going to learn about that. A lot of really good information here. You guys are going to enjoy it. Please go out and check out his book as well. Again, it's called Super Body, a three week program to harness the new science of body composition and restore your youthful. And you can also check out Dr. William Davis' website, drdavisinfinitehealth.com. You're going to enjoy this interview on the gut muscle axis. Please leave us a five star review if you're enjoying the podcast and share it with somebody that you know and that you care about. And we're going to go into a quick ad from one of our sponsors. God bless you guys. You're going to enjoy this episode. And here's that ad. And then we go right into the interview. Well, I love listening to podcasts. And one of my favorites is the Dr. Josh Axe show hosted by my good friend Dr. Josh Axe. Every week he shares how to balance your hormones, restore your gut, boost your energy and slow aging without relying on harsh medications or quick fixes. He shares both ancient biblical practices and the latest breakthroughs in nutrition, herbal remedies and lifestyle medicine. And he sits down with world renowned experts to have real unfiltered conversations he won't hear anywhere else. So if you're ready to take control of your health, renew your energy and transform your mind, body and spirit, tune in to the Dr. Josh Axe show every Monday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. Well, here I am with Dr. William Davis, New York Times best selling author. Most of you guys are familiar with his great book Wheat Belly. He also wrote another great book called Super Gut. And today we're talking about some of his findings and what led him to write his newest book, Super Body, a three week program to harness the new science of body composition and restore your youthful. And so we're going to talk all about that. Dr. Davis, welcome to the podcast. Honored to be able to have this conversation. Well, thank you, Dr. Juggers. Happy to be here. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about conventional weight loss strategies. You know, there's a lot of things that people have been doing for years, counting calories, for example, all different types of, you know, radical weight loss diets. And you know, today's day and age, now weight loss injections, things like ozempic, wagovi that are extremely common. And people have gotten, you know, mixed results with these things. But what is your take on all of these different strategies? As you know, it's been decades of blundering, misinformation, misinterpretations, bad things. I mean, bizarre things, right? Like liposuction and reducing the volume of your stomach with some surgical procedure. But you know, I hope that with all the blunders and discoveries that have been made along the way, that we emerge with some kind of concrete wisdom, a real understanding what's going on. And the GLP one agonist world, all those drugs that people are now crazy for, have brought it to a head. Because we now know it's not as if this thing enters a vacuum, right? It enters a world where we have a much better understanding than we did say even 10 years ago. We know, for instance, with very good evidence that regardless of the method used, if you reduce calorie intake, it could be a diet program, could be a meal replacement program with reduced calorie meals, could be a bariatric procedure or reduce stomach volumes like lab band gastric bypass. It could be a pharmaceutical that reduces your interest in food and induces satiety with very little food. But they're all variations on the same theme, reduction calorie intake. And we know, we now know with absolute confidence, a lot of this work, by the way, not from pharma, not from some little clinic in Louisiana, but NIH data and other very credible sources. We know that when you reduce calorie intake, you will lose muscle. You will lose huge amounts of muscle. About 25% of all weight loss is consistent across study after dozens of studies. 25% of the weight lost will be muscle. So if you lose 40 pounds, 10 pounds would be muscle. So I tell people, well, think about 10 pounds of ground beef on your kitchen counter. That's a lot of muscle to lose. And we know, we now know with confidence, when you lose that much muscle, the principle determinant of your base metabolic rate, of course, the rate at which you burn calories for breathing, digestion, et cetera, that you will not maintain the low weight, you will regain the weight and you'll regain it as fat, mostly in the abdomen, abdominal, visceral fat. So you lose that weight, you may think you've done, I had a great success, much of which was muscle, you maintain a low calorie diet, and even an extreme exercise program. You know, I talked to Danny Cahill, nice guy. He was the winner of the eighth season of the biggest loser TV show. And he, over seven months, he lost 239 pounds. Unbelievable. He looked great, though all the contestants at the close, by the way, had spanks underneath to conceal the skin flaps. But anyway, he wins the $250,000 of losing all that weight, looked terrific on the surface. He leaves the show, maintains the low calorie, this guy is super, super disciplined, maintains a low calorie diet, and two hours a day, six days a week, resistance training, aerobic exercise, regains all the weight. He said he'd go back every year to the reunion that the producers of the TV show would host, and he saw all the other contestants all re-eating all the weight. But it's a vivid illustration that if you lose weight by cutting calories, in this case also extreme exercise, you will regain the weight as fat. And that's been borne out, by the way, with the GLP agonist. There's one very important study from a UK group, Wilding is the primary author. Same thing, GLP agonist. You lose all this weight, you stop the drug, because most people can't afford that kind of money forever, or you want to spare yourself some of the awful side effects. By the way, blindness. Optic neuritis is one of the big side effects. Blindness! And so you stop the drug, you regain the weight, not as muscle, as fat. And if we believe in this evidence, you're more likely to be pre-diabetic, a type 2 diabetic, infel-resistance, risk of carinary disease, dementia, breast cancer, is now greater. Than it was. So as you likely know, there have been now 3,000 lawsuits filed against GLP agonist manufacturers. And I don't think the class action stuff has started yet. When people realize, yeah, you take the drug, you lose weight, you stop it, and your health is destroyed. We also know, with large databases, epic Norfolk, NHANES, Asprey, all these large databases that have tracked in total about 60,000 people for as long as 20 years. And we know that people who lose weight, almost always by reducing calories, will die several years younger. And your last few years are more likely to be dominated by falls, fractures, frailty, loss of independence, and acceleration of conditions like dementia. So in other words, farmers pocketing billions of dollars while destroying your health long term. Yeah, it's a big issue. And so in your book, you talk a lot about muscle mass, we call it the organ of longevity. Muscle is so critical. And this is something that these conventional methods, I mean, some of them, like you talked about with Biggest Loser, they're having you do extreme exercise, but probably too much exercise, because their goal really is is how many calories you can burn rather than the type of exercise that's going to help you have optimal muscle mass. You know, I talked to my colleagues who are so, they're raving about these drugs. Oh, don't worry, don't worry. I insist on all my patients going to the gym and engaging in resistance exercise. Well, let's look at this, another NIH study. So in other words, when I say NIH, we hope it's unbiased. It's not paid for by pharma. It's meant to be in different scientists, not paid for by some industry group. So they took a bunch of people with BMI's of 50, super obese people, put them on a very strict low calorie diet, and a very intensive exercise program, like Danny's program, two hours a day, six days a week, which is heroic. I mean, that's a tough regimen to maintain. And over seven months, they lost about 123 pounds, which is spectacular, of which 17.4% was muscle. So less than the expected 25%, but still dramatic. And when they had their metabolic rates measured, formally measured, the same, it was no different. About 25% reduction in basal metabolic rate, meaning you can eat a low calorie diet, very small portion sizes, maintain extreme exercise, and you will regain the weight as fat. So the the jury is, it's in, it's clear cut, cutting calories, regardless of the method, but particularly in our day and age, pharmaceuticals is a death sentence. It will program you for earlier death, disability, and it does not spare you from all the, the problem is, of course, it's so tantalizing to people to lose 40 pounds, 60 pounds, oh, a size four dress, 32 inch pants. And it's so enticing, not recognizing, you just signed a death sentence that instead of dying, let's say 82, you may die at 75, 77, and your last few years are not going to be good years. They're going to be very bad years. And so this is what, this is what the FDA approved, because they did, they had no long term outcome data. They didn't prove that this will, I mean, you'd hope extend life by losing weight, but it doesn't, it actually abbreviates life. I have a very important question for you. Do you know if you're getting enough magnesium? Because four out of five Americans aren't. And if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time, you know, I'm a huge advocate of magnesium. And I just find that so many people are not getting enough. And I know the more stress I'm under, the more magnesium my body is using. And I have less energy, less focus, tighter muscles and trouble sleeping. Ever since I started adding magnesium breakthrough from bi optimizers to my nightly routine, I've been able to quiet my mind and get the best sleep ever. And unlike other magnesium supplements that might be giving you one to two forms of magnesium, magnesium breakthrough contains all seven forms of magnesium designed to help calm your mind and help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. All bi optimizer supplements are best in class. And if for some reason you feel differently, you can get a full refund. No questions asked. They're so confident that they offer a 365 day money back guarantee. So don't miss out on the most relaxing sleep ever with magnesium breakthrough. Go to bi optimizers.com forward slash Dr. Jockers. That's B I O P T I M I Z ERS.com forward slash Dr. J O C K ERS and use my exclusive code Dr. Jockers all one word Dr. J O C K ERS to get 15% off any order. Let's make this the year you finally start sleeping great again. Yeah, and that's important to know. So really, when it comes to weight loss, the goal shouldn't just be weight loss. The goal should be really optimizing your body for longevity. And a big, a big component of that is muscle mass. Now in your book, you talk about like this relationship between oxytocin and muscle mass, which I found really interesting. I'm a certain of so I got really excited when the animal evidence and now several other lines of exploration, a group of University Texas Dallas, Jim Versalovic's group. There's a Cincinnati group that showed with Roteri with with restoration of Roteri, a microbe that virtually all of us have lost in the modern world. Very interesting microbe. So if we were to sample the gastrointestinal microbiomes of rabbits, of dogs, of moose, of zebras, of gophers, they all have lactoseous Roteri. If we were to study the microbiomes of people living in the savannas of Africa, Tanzania, the jungles of South America, Brazilian rainforest, for instance, or the Highland jungles of New Guinea, they all have Roteri. We've lost it because that species is very susceptible to common antibiotics. So it's meant to be, of course, a ubiquitous microbe in all mammals, suggesting it's probably very, very important. We've lost it. So all we're doing is restoring it. Now, if we believe the animal data out of MIT, that was the initial inspiration. Very elegant work, by the way, by a cancer group, because we know from a lot of cell culture type evidence and mouse evidence that Roteri seems to have protective effects against cancer, particularly colon cancer, maybe some other forms also. So they're giving their mice this microbe, lactoseous Roteri, and they're watching all these unexpected effects. Their hair, their fur grew faster. They shaved them. The hair grew faster, healing time in half. Likewise, skin wounds, healing time cut in half. They did a really cool experiment. They gave a bunch of mice a really crappy diet full of hydrogenated fads, sugars, mentaminic fast food, but they gave half Roteri, other half placebo. Well, the half they got, the placebo got old, got fat, lost their fur, stopped mating, stopped playing. They got old and fat and died. The group that got the crappy diet and Roteri stayed slender, maintained thick fur, mated, played. They stayed young until they died. And there were some other measures they made, increased lean muscle mass, increased testosterone in the male mice, increased neoptitode, about 300% increase in oxytocin. And that effect has been corroborated now by that Dallas group that's done some very elegant work. Now a university Cincinnati group, we've been struggling to corroborate it. So I don't know in two mouse studies and two human studies, we have yet to corroborate that. So I'm confused. I'm a little bit uncertain about what that means. So I'm looking, I'm thinking, well, I'm not sure I can explain the discrepant results across different clinical studies. But I think that one lesson that emerges is that Roteri is unique, very different from other microbes in that it colonizes the entire gastrointestinal tract from mouth to anus. Very unusual. Colonize the mouth, the esophagus, the stomach, the duodenum, the juju, all the way down to the very end. That's very unusual. And it takes up residence in those areas, but specifically the small intestine, the 24 feet of small intestine, where it produces bacteria, that is natural antibiotics, effective mostly, mostly in killing fecal microbe, we say gram negative proteobacteria. These are species like E. coli, Salmonella, Campylobacter, Citrobacter, Pseudomonaset. Your listeners may recognize that they're also pathogens. For instance, they cause a lot of urinary tract infections and food poisoning. So fecal microbes are not good for us. It's okay to have some in your colon. It's not good to have it in your sandwich or in your small intestine. Well, Roteri, so colonized entire length of GI tract, produces bacteria, especially something called Reuterine, and it kills off. So we had this huge problem, as you likely know in the U.S., and worldwide, that about half the population, not my speculation, evidence is already in existence, about half the population has allowed the excessive proliferation of fecal microbes, all those E. coli's and etc., that have then ascended into the 24 feet of small intestine. So we say small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Well, the small intestine, as you know, is not well adapted to having a flood of fecal microbes. Those are very inflammatory. They live and die in the space of a few hours. When they die, they shed their toxic components, particularly their cell wall components like lipopolysaccharide endotoxin, that enters the bloodstream. We say endotoxinium. So there's at least a three to four-fold increase. It's probably worse than that because the method of measurement underestimates it. So it's probably several-fold increase in endotoxin. Well, what does that do? Well, it's responsible for effects on the brain, anger, hostility, violence, hatred, headaches, depression, anxiety, cognitive impairment on the skin, rosacea, psoriasis, acne, on joint pain, rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, on the heart, coronary disease, coronary artery rupture, atrial fibrillation, impairment of left ventricular function. In other words, we have to rethink, reconsider all we thought we knew in light of this whole sequence of events, loss of important species like rhodoride, loss of its capacity to inhibit colonization of the small intestine, and then the entry of bacterial breakdown products from those gram negative proteobacteria into the bloodstream. In other words, it's a way that the gastrointestinal microbiome can export its effects. And among its effects is the erosion of muscle and the expansion of abdominal visceral fat. In other words, all the things that are affecting modern people, not entirely, there are other causes, of course, bad diet, etc. But we know that now this disruption of the gastrointestinal microbiome, but specifically loss of species like rhodoride and some others, has ignited this process of loss of muscle, expansion of abdominal fat. Yeah, that's an important connection right there. And it would make sense that the LPS, the endotoxins would drive up a stress response in the body. And so, by reducing that, so that stress response is antagonistic to hormones of connection like oxytocin, for example. So, where I'm linking this is, as we bring down the stress hormones by reducing the endotoxin, it would make sense that the weight off the scale, the weight would be coming off, and now oxytocin levels would arise. And so, there could be a connection as far as that goes. And this is really what we're talking about in your book with the gut muscle axis. And we know that, obviously, issues with the gut are linked with, like you talked about, we talked about the gut brain axis, the gut skin axis, you know, the gut endocrine axis. But here you're talking about the gut muscle axis. And when the gut is out of balance, and when there's problems with the gut, it's going to lead to an inability to build healthy lean muscle tissue. Absolutely. You know, it's gotten pretty bad in this country where there really has been a wild, unrestrained, expansion of abdominal visceral fat. You can see it sometimes in a big protuberant abdomen, but sometimes you can also see it in a person with a flat tummy. And if you formally look at that, it could be through a bioimpedance scale, it could be through DEXA, it could be cross-sectional CT or MRI. You'll see that there's a lot more visceral fat, even in slender people, the so-called skinny fat phenomenon. And, you know, I often think, if we hadn't made all these huge blunders in health and nutrition, we would know a lot of these things. But because we did, and one of the lessons that's been learned recently, because of the obesity epidemic, is that abdominal visceral fat also drives the deposition of fat in other organs. It has relevance to heart disease, for instance, because when you have fat around the heart, so-called epicardial fat mostly, fat around the heart, it accelerates the growth of atherosclerotic plaque, heart attack, sudden cardiac death. So, abdominal visceral fat, so-called ectopic fat, specifically here, epicardial fat, accelerates heart disease. You can deposit ectopic fat in your joint spaces, like your knees and hips. You can see it with an MRI. You see globules of fat, and that's in inflammatory. It accelerates the degradation of cartilage and takes you faster to bone-on-bone arthritis. You can deposit fat in your pancreas, where damage is beta cells, and can convert a type II diabetic to an irretrievable type I diabetic. But one of the things also is this so-called myosteatosis, that is the deposition of fat in muscle. So, we know that people with all these problems, abdominal visceral fat, insulin resistance, distortions of hormones, as you point out, like cortisol and testosterone and others, and you deposit fat in muscle. So, it adds to the loss of muscle. So, muscle with fat in it, myosteatosis, causes much greater weakness, much greater impairment, and actually programs you for earlier death. So, it's not just an appearance. People think, oh, it's just an appearance thing. I want to fit back into my old genes. Well, that's great. But recognize if you don't do it, you're programming yourself for all kinds of nasty business in your future. Yeah, I mean, that's super key. It's super important to understand that you've got to promote healthy muscle tissue in order to burn fat effectively, right? And that's so key. Otherwise, you're going to start building that visceral fat like you were talking about. If you're busy with work, family, and activities like I am, you're probably using up your electrolytes, leaving you wired, tired, and depleted. You see, what most people don't realize is that if you're under stress or doing intermittent fasting, eating a low-carb diet, training hard, or even just living an active, busy life, you're losing more electrolytes like sodium, potassium, and magnesium than you probably realize. And most electrolyte drinks don't come close to replacing them. That's one of the reasons I use relight from Redmond every day. It's made with Redmond's Real Salt, an ancient, unrefined sea salt from Utah that naturally contains trace minerals. And it contains two types of magnesium for better absorption. There's no sugar, no artificial ingredients, just a clean formula that actually works. And it has unique trace minerals that improve cellular hydration better than any other electrolyte formula on the market. I drink these electrolytes every day because I can feel the energy boost. I have better mental clarity while I'm working and greater strength gains in the gym. And they've even improved my sleep quality. My routine is simple. I use the unflavored relight while fasting in the morning. Then a flavored version, my favorites would be strawberry and lemon lime. I use those around workouts. If you want to try it for yourself, go to redmond.life forward slash dr. Jockers. That's redmond, R-E-D-M-O-N-D dot life forward slash Dr. Jockers. Use the code Jockers at checkout for 15% off today. Now, what are some of the key nutrients? Like when we look at our nutrition and our diet, what are some of the key nutrients? You know, when we think about muscle, we think about protein. But what are some of the other things that you found that are really important for healthy muscle tissue and for really just a healthy metabolism? So that rudder, I of course, plays a role via a variety of mechanisms, which we're still trying to validate and explore. It could be oxytocin, it could be reduction myosteatosis, it could be a reduction of abdominal visceral fat and thereby, I mean, there's a bunch of things that we have yet to explore. And you know, one of the things we're not pharma, we don't rip people off for billions of dollars. So we have to chug along with our very simple modest clinical studies and try to answer these questions. It takes us longer because we don't have billions of dollars. Pharma would laugh at us for the money we spend. They say, oh, it's our rounding error for us. But ruddery. Now, we don't just get ruddery because the original MIT studies were in mice. And the product they used was actually a commercially available product made for babies, made for infants. So the dose was tiny. You know, adult doses are much larger than a newborn's dose. And so I just reasoned. I got that microbe. That the original product had 100 million counts of two different strains of ruddery. 100 million sounds like a lot. But as you know, with microbes, it's trivial. So I asked, well, you could take, you know, 100 tablets a day. Well, that's stupid, right? No, it's going to do that. And it's very expensive. And it's kind of gross. So I reasoned. Well, let's ferment it. Now, let's ferment it. It's something that looks and smells like yogurt. This is a way. So as you know, microbes don't have sex. There's no male and female microbes. They just double themselves. So ruddery doubles about every three hours at human body temperature. It's a microbe of dad. By the way, that's what we're doing with a lot of these fermentation products. We're fermenting human sourced microbes, not the stuff in kefir and yogurt. That's all great. That's all great. Great microbe. But we're going to specifically ferment microbe sourced from humans. So we take the ruddery that doubles every three hours at human body temperature. We're going to let it ferment or double 12 times 36 hours human body temperature, more or less. We count the number of microbes in a method called flow cytometry. It's the laser assisted counting method. We count about 300 billion. So we increase the number of microbes about a thousand fold. And then we consume this thing that looks and smells like yogurt. I call it yogurt. I regret that because people think, oh, I can buy at the grocery store. No, you can't buy at the grocery store. Different microbes, different methods used. So prolonged fermentation, I'd like to add some prebiotic fiber. It's kind of like adding cow manure to your garden. You're going to have bigger tomatoes and more of them. Same thing here. And then we do this and we get these. So the key here is to get these super duper high counts. You could do as a probiotic, but it's kind of hard to get really high counts because you'd have to pay hundreds of dollars a month to do. So this yogurt, not yogurt, looks like yogurt, is an inexpensive, easy way to increase microbial counts. It could be rhodorite. It could be lactobacillus gasarii that shrinks your waste. It could be bacillus subtilis that has all kinds of fantastic effects. It could be bacillus coagulants that helps athletes and people who have heavy physical labor to recover faster because it reduces muscle injury during strainless exercise. It could be bifidobacter infantis that you feed to a child that improves its metabolism of human milk, oligosaccharides and breast milk, and it improves their neurological maturation. They have a higher IQ later in life. They're less prone to type 1 diabetes, asthma, autoimmune diseases, less likely to be obese as an adolescent. It could be lactobacillus crispotis, the dominant healthy microbe in a woman's vagina that without it she has all kinds of problems. Like candidate vaginitis and urinary tract infections are really restoring. In other words, it's a way to restore human. I didn't really recognize how it was at a beer brewing store. And I'm talking to the guy. I said, what are you fermenting? Well, we have saccharomyces, serovicia to make wine and beer. We sometimes use lactobacillus brevis for some other added effects. And they said, what are you fermenting? I said, well, human microbes. And these guys were horrified. Oh no! What? They were terrified. When I say human, we didn't go to somebody's poop and get the... No, no. It went through a whole process of purification and it becomes commercially available. So it's not like it came directly from poop or breast milk or skin or vagina. It goes through a whole process. But that's what we're doing. We're fermenting human microbes because all of us, exposed to all the crap we're exposed to. Antibiotics, glyphosate, which is an antibiotic, by the way, as well as an herbicide. Other herbicides, pesticides, microplastics, emulsifying agents, synthetic sweeteners like aspartame. On and on and on, we've decimated the gastrointestinal and other micro, white microbombs like brain and vagina and skin and prostate. So all we're doing is trying to identify the microbes that seem to be of greatest importance. There's hundreds of them. You can't replace all of them with yogurt. You go nuts and you can't get all of them. So we choose the ones that I think are, we say, keystone or foundational. The ones that seem to, once you restore like rhododri gas, right, and some others. It somehow opens the door to the restoration of so many others. Ficalibacterium, acrimansia, parabactiroides, lagnospiraceae. All the things that we've lost because of our overexposure, all those nasty effects. Yeah, it's a really good breakdown now with this yogurt, not yogurt. Is this something people can make at home? Is this something they can purchase? How do you go about doing that? Yeah, that's the whole purpose. We want to help people make it at home. So you can't buy, at least not currently, because it takes prolonged fermentation. A lot of manufacturers don't want to do that. I'm always marvel with you. Buy a bottle of scotch or whiskies, age 12 years. Imagine you start a business and they say, when you're going to sell your product, well, 2042. So I'm always impressed they do that. Same thing here. If you're going to ferment for 36 hours or so, it varies, by the way, with the microbe. So for instance, bacillus subtilis, cool microbe, IDNA sequenced, a strain I have, and it's got the genes for seven bacteriaisans. It's a bactericin powerhouse. Not all bacillus subtilis, but some of the strains. And one of the strains I have has this extraordinary capacity. So it's going to be one of the things that we use. So one of the things I've been doing is, so if you're in the 50% of the US population or more that has SIBO, well, how do you get rid of it? Well, you could take an antibiotic, but as you know, Dr. Jockers, antibiotic goddess in this mess. Do you really want to take another one? And so what I've been doing is asking this question. Well, okay, you've got 30 feet of fecal microbes inhabiting your GI tract. What if you took a commercial probiotic? Will it go away? No. You might have a reduction in bloating or some minor effects. So what if we chose microbes that we know will colonize the entire length of the GI tract, or at least the small intestine, and colon, and we know produce a lot of bacteriasins. So I chose three. Lactobacillus rotari, lactobacillus gastari, and the most recent recipe I tweaked to replace the bacillus coagulans with bacillus subtilis. There's nothing wrong with coagulans. It's just, it's not very reliable and fermentation and dairy. So subtilis, very easy to ferment, high counts. We ferment, ideally, individually ferment, you can co-ferment, but they compete with each other. And I think subtilis probably takes over at some point. So ideally, you individually ferment and you consume quarter a half cup of each per day. And so far, it has been miraculously effective in normalizing breath, hydrogen gas that is correcting SIBO. Now we will do a formal clinical trial. I'm debating how best to do that because you can't do it as yogurt. You can't have people make yogurt. It's too variable. We probably have to encapsulate it. But then the question becomes, what's the dose you want of each microbe? And that's an uncertainty. I think it's somewhere between 50 and 100 billion. Some people argue that dose of microbe doesn't count. Oh, it does count. It absolutely does count. And I know that with RotoEye, for instance, and when you get to about 50 billion or higher, is where you get a lot of big, 40 billion actually, and higher, you get a lot of big biological effects. So that's one way to tackle this issue. Now I also cringe, once again, it's all the blunders we've made as a society and diet that taught us lessons. So if we hear nonsense, like cut your saturated fat and cholesterol, and people say, well, that means I can't eat organ meats. I can't eat liver. I can't eat stomach. I won't eat brain or skin. In fact, I'm going to buy boneless, skinless chicken breast. Well, you've rejected, you abandoned consumption of very important nutrients, but with relevance to muscle, fat, et cetera, what I call shape and body composition, is the collagen and hyaluronic acid you've abandoned, both of which have dramatic effects on your shape, body composition, how much muscle you have, how much fat you have, where it's located, and other effects. The ladies will say this to me. They say, oh, don't tell me about hyaluronic acid. I know all about it. I pay $150 a month for an ounce and put it right here. And I lose my cr- Well, yeah, that's great. What did it do for the rest of your body? Skin on your neck, on your abdomen, thighs. What about the other effects of hyaluronic acid, by the way, endlessly fascinating? It's a fiber. It's one of the rare fibers from animals, right? Fibers from animals. So hyaluronic acid, a fiber, abandoned because it was in brain and skin and other organs. So most people are getting no very little hyaluronic acid in their diet. But when you get it orally, not top, you can do it topically, but orally, it's a fiber, it blooms very beneficial species, fecalobacterium, acrimansi, laconspiracea. It goes to the hyaluronic acid, provokes collagen deposition in the dermal layer of skin. So you lose your wrinkles, reduces wrinkles. It causes moisture retention. Ladies love the plumping effect. They say that's what they call it. It looks like you're a teenager, that kind of plumping effect. It also reinvigorates moisture in the vagina, because the uterus cervix of vagina is largely hyaluronic acid. And of course, the lining of arteries, the hair-like lining of arteries, so-called glyco-calix, that is the regulator of tone, of constriction or relaxation. What's the glyco-calix made of? Hyaluronic acid, abad joints. Well, hyaluronic acid stimulates production of collagen, because joint cartilage is 70% collagen. It also adds to the synovial fluid, lubricating fluid. So hyaluronic acid, this critical, wonderful, fantastic fiber, abandoned by almost everybody. So now, if you and I say, well, we want you to eat heart and pancreas and kidney, people say, yuck, oh, we've been made so squimmy, so we resort to supplements. Likewise with collagen, a lot of similar effects, a little different mechanism. But as dermal collagen adds to joint cartilage. Now, is there hyaluronic acid in if you were to make your own bone broth, just different joint capsules and bones? Would it be in that as well as the connective tissue if you're eating more of the cartilaginous tissue, which again, we don't, because we consume the chicken breast rather than the joint? I always say the healthiest part of the chicken wing is actually the synovial joint on the top. In my knowledge, no one's tested hyaluronic acid. There's a big void in knowing what different parts of the body and different methods of preparation do in providing hyaluronic acid. It's very poorly studied. Collagen a little bit better. My only concern with doing it with bone broth, as opposed to other broths and soups, is that the prolonged boiling with the use of vinegar, we now know mobilized is lead. Bone is a repository for heavy metals, but including lead. And so now there's two modest studies showing us that there's lead in bone broth. So because of prolonged boiling and the addition of vinegar to mobilized minerals. So it's okay to include some bones, but don't use extended or prolonged boiling. Don't add vinegar and add the things you're talking about, tendons, ligaments, meat, organs, whatever, because that's a great way. But it's not clear to me how much hyaluronic acid you get. It's also hard to know how much collagen you're getting. So I do encourage people, because everybody's so squeamish about this, to resort to some of the supplements and maybe you don't have to take a full say 20 grams of bovine collagen, maybe at least if you're doing a lot of broths and soups and slow cooked meats to mobilize the collagen, maybe only take 10 grams of bovine or something like that. In 2026, I'm not just getting back into my normal healthy routine. I'm actually helping my body turn back the clock. Now you might not know this, but the things that happen to our body as we get older, stiff joints in the morning, longer recovery from the gym, hair thinning, nails breaking, even skin losing that smooth glow, these can all be fixed. They happen because your body's collagen levels start to naturally decline beginning as early as your mid 20s. You see collagen is often referred to as the glue that holds our bodies together. So you can imagine that a decline in collagen production has some big impacts on your body. But that's where a bub's natural collagen peptides come in. You see bubs helps restore collagen levels closer to what your body naturally had in its youth. So your joints feel stronger, your hair and nails grow healthier, and your skin looks smoother. And it's super easy to use. Just mix bubs into your coffee, smoothie or juice each morning. It's tasteless, odorless and dissolves instantly. No clumping, no weird aftertaste. On top of that, bubs is built to the highest standard. No junk, zero sugars, sweeteners or fillers. It's third party tested, NSF certified for sport, whole 30 approved and sustainably sourced from grass fed pasture raised cattle. It's trusted by over 100,000 customers and was named the best collagen of 2024 by health.com. So live better, longer. For a limited time only, our listeners are getting 20% off at bubs naturals by using the code DrJockers, drjockeress at checkout. So just head to bubsbubsnaturels.com and use the code DrJockers and you're all set. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Yeah, and you'll also get some in ground beef, actually ground beef takes the cartilaginous regions that you know, people don't enjoy because they're tougher to chew, which actually is good for your jaw, right? Believe it or not, but our ancestors like great point. Yeah. But the ground beef is your cheapest beef, right? And they take all of those unwanted parts that are rich in the collagen and have the hyaluronic acid kind of put them all together. So that's also a good buy. Excellent, excellent point. Yeah, great, great. So you're talking about hyaluronic acid, the collagen, right? Making sure you're getting collagen, any other key nutrients? You know, this is not very exciting. But I like to address the nutrients that are largely lacking in modern life, not because of the diet, but because of the way we conduct our lives. So as you know, we work indoors. If you're like me, you live in a northern climate, you wear clothes outside. Over age 40, you lose the capacity to activate vitamin D. So these are all vitamin D deficiency situations. So we restore vitamin D as a subling. I'd like to say go outside, but where I am, where I am, you really can't, it's 20 degrees, it's gray, it's cold. So we take vitamin D and of course to replace sun, we get exposure to the red wavelengths of light as well. Now, if you're lucky enough to live in southern climate, go outside. You probably will have to act the subliminal vitamin D also. But vitamin D, magnesium, because we have to filter our water. You can't, there's almost no magnesium remaining in modern produce and modern produce is so filled now with microplastics from soil. So is sublimin, magnesium, iodine. People have forgotten that iodine deficiency of course was one of the largest public health problems all throughout human history. All we have to do is go to the museum like the Louvre in Rome and look at all the statues and paintings. You'll see all the people with goiters and large thyroid glands from lack of iodine. FDA recognized that in 1924. But how do you tell an illiterate American public back then? No internet, no TV, no radio. So they launched a poster campaign. Use more iodized salt. Keep your family goiter free. People listened, did it, and it worked. Goiters went away. And then idiotic dietary advice, cut your saturated fat and cholesterol, et cetera. And people started to develop, coupled with the proliferation of processed foods, people develop insulin resistance that causes sodium retention. FDA not recognizing this said, all right, cut that salt, even though it was the FDA's original advice to use iodine salt. So people cut back on their salt use. And now they are most people are marginally iodine sufficient. And that has thyroid implications and other. So we add back iodine. Unless you're coastal, eat lots of seafood and seaweed, which most people can't. Now this is iodine. We have this problem now with mercury and fish, cadmium and shellfish, microplastics and shellfish. So we get iodine. And then of course omega 3 fatty acids, because no one wants to eat brain anymore, rich in DHA, is hazardous to eat too much fish because of the mercury. And so we submit omega 3s. Now it sounds like a random list, but it's really not. It's just meant to address the common deficiencies. But the great thing is when you restore those four basic things, they synergize to minimize insulin resistance, insulin resistance, the driver of abdominal fat, expansion and the erosion of muscle, and the driver of myosteatosis. So even though it seems random, it's intentional, addressing deficiencies and synergize to minimize insulin resistance. Yeah, that's a great list right there. And that when you improve your insulin sensitivity, that's going to improve testosterone levels, really all your sex hormone production, which is going to help you maintain muscle mass and build muscle mass. Also, you know, insulin is an antagonist to growth hormone. So hormone is your quintessential anti-aging hormone that helps you maintain your muscle mass and helps you burn fat. So all really good recommendations right there. And Dr. Davis, what are some of the top foods that you talk about in your book to help reset, feed and nourish the microbiome? So I think of the microbes in your gut, kind of like your dog. Let's say you tie your listeners tie their dog up in the backyard on a chain, and then you forgot, you got distracted, you forgot to feed your poor tied up dog for five days. What's going to happen to your dog? Dog's going to die. So you do have to feed these creatures. But it's a great symbiotic relationship because they feed on things that you can ingest, but you cannot digest. And so these, of course, are fibers in various forms. Ironically, of course, we went through 40 years of being told, get more fiber, get more fiber, get more brand fiber. They're talking about cellulose fiber, which is like saying to your listeners, hey, I think you should include more sawdust in your diet. In other words, it's indigestible by both humans and by microbes, at least the human type microbes. And so we resort to the fibers and related things, some polysaccharides and other things, that microbes are able to process. And if you feed them, they do fantastic things for you. One that proliferate all those beneficial microbes like fecalobacterium. Fecalobacterium, by the way, you don't hear much about, but it's a really cool microfecalobacterium prosnitii. And it's meant to be the dominant producer of a fatty acid butyrate. If you feed it properly, right? If you don't feed your dogs in a diet, if you don't feed your fecalobacterium with things like inulin, fructo-aligosaccharides, galacto-aligosaccharides from legumes and root vegetables, hyaluronic acid. Fecalobacterium loves hyaluronic acid. So we're going to bloom fecalobacterium that in turn produces beneficial metabolites like butyric acid butyrate that in turn nourishes your intestinal wall, goes to the skin, acidifies the skin, healthy skin. Ladies are crazy for skin, that's why I mentioned it. Acidic skin. There's only two parts of the body I'm aware of that should be acidic. Acid in the mouth is bad. It erodes your enamel. But acidity on the skin is great. You want acidic skin, makes your skin look healthier and younger. And acidity in the vagina, you want the vagina to be very acidic like a pH of 4.5 because that's how it fights off the pathogens like candida and garderella. And hyaluronic acid as well. Okay, all right, quick point. So we get that those fibers that species like fecalobacterium convert to this butyric acid that it certifies where it's supposed to and mediates other beneficial effects, better sleep, better dreams, lower blood pressure, lower blood sugar reduced, potential for fatty liver, all those kinds of wonderful things. So it's the fibers that come from foods of course, like root vegetables, onions, garlic, shallots, legumes, black beans, white beans, chickpeas, lentils, rutabagas. All these things that come from now that the difficulty is of course in our modern world is unfortunately soil has now become so overloaded with plastic. Farmers are using for instance what it's called plastic mulch. It's essentially dark colored plastic that gets absorbed sunlight and heats the soil so it promotes growth and inhibits weeds and maintains moisture and adds huge amounts of plastic to the soil. There's actually fertilizers that are made with microbeads of plastic to which the fertilizer is bound. So the farmer is spraying his fertilizer with plastic, with microplastics. So you and your family eat a carrot for instance, you just got a huge load of plastic. You eat an apple, typically non-organic type, where the farmer doesn't care what he's applying. So we get that issue to deal with also and it's now becoming clear in emerging science that microplastics and nanoplastics, smaller, have consequences for the microbiome. It disturbs the microbiome probably by disrupting the intestinal barrier and cultivating inflammation. That makes a lot of sense. I also had read a report a while back that these researchers looked at what was different about all these different individuals with Crohn's disease about their gut microbiome. The only thing they actually found that was similar with all of them was they all were depleted in fecal bacterium prusnitsii that you were talking about. That was the only common finding. Some people at higher E. coli, some people at higher Campylovacter, all these different other findings, but that was the only similar finding they found across the board was this significant reduction in fecal bacterium prusnitsii. So glad that you brought that up. Huge butyrate producer. Did you know that most olive oil on supermarket shelves is already stale and lacking beneficial antioxidants? And even worse, many of them are laced with toxic seed oils like canola oil and corn oil. But true fresh pressed extra virgin olive oil is not just a cooking ingredient. It's a potent health elixir. Unlike refined oils, fresh pressed extra virgin olive oil is loaded with high levels of polyphenols and anti inflammatory compounds that protect your heart, boost brain health and act like natural medicine. In fact, they contain this really powerful polyphenol called olio cantal, which provides anti inflammatory benefits that are similar to the drug ibuprofen. And because it's cold pressed and consumed within months of harvest, you get maximal nutritional value and a peppery kick that proves it's rich and health boosting antioxidants. This fresh pressed olive oil is liquid gold that transforms a simple salad, roasted vegetables, and a hunk of crusty bread into a gourmet meal and acts as a natural medicine at the same time. If you love olive oil like I do, here's a good tip. The most delicious olive oil you'll ever taste is fresh from the farm. That's when olive oil is at its peak of flavor and nutritional goodness. Supermarket olive oils can't compare because they sit on the shelf for months growing stale. And that's why I get my olive oil direct from small award winning family farms. Thanks to a fellow named TJ Robinson, also known as the olive oil hunter. TJ's farm fresh oils are vibrant, grassy and incredibly delicious on salads, bread, veggies, pasta, meat, fish and even desserts to let you taste the difference freshness makes. TJ will send you a full size bottle normally $49 free if you'll pay just $1 shipping. That's how he introduces people to his fresh pressed olive oil club. Just $1 for shipping and a free bottle is yours. And there's no commitment to buy anything now or ever to get your free bottle and taste the difference freshness makes go to DrJockersOleveOil.com that's one word drjockersoleveoil.com that's drjockersoleveoil.com go there today for that $1 bottle. Now let's transition to your your your super body program your three week program. What does that look like and what will people learn with the book? Well, we have to retrace some steps in diet. So while I talked about this concept many years ago as under the wheat belly title, it still applies. You know, people think, oh, he's talking about being gluten free. No, no, no, no, no, no. There's a lot of reason as you know to do this. One, you want to reduce your exposure to the amylopectin, the amylopectin a unique to wheat and grains. That's the sugar that comes from wheat and grains. That is extreme. So a lot of the problems with wheat and grains are because of the proteins are not fully digestible or completely indigestible. The carbohydrate unique to wheat and grains, the amylopectin a has a unique structure and it's extremely digestible. And that's why if you took a piece of bread, doesn't matter white, whole great, doesn't matter. There's no difference by that's nonsense. Put it in your mouth and chew it. Don't swallow and do a finger stick glucose beforehand and then a few minutes into you'll see a big uptick in blood glucose because you start the suggestion of amylopectin a in the mouth with salivary amylase. You swallowed of course further digestion, huge spike in blood glucose and by the way in production of small LDL particles. That's the reason why I did it originally many, many, many years ago because I'm seeing people with coronary disease, people dying of heart attacks, sudden cardiac death, going to emergency bypass surgery, stent implant, all that kind of crazy stuff I used to do. And if you want to put a stop to it, conventional advice is well cut your saturated fat and take a statin drug to reduce your LDL, which of course is absurd. That should have been discarded decades ago. And I and we saw this because you could have somebody who let's say survived something very serious, very serious cardiovascular event. Put them on high ghost lipid or baby aspirin, beta block or low fat diet exercise best they have in conventional healthcare. Comes back a year later with a heart attack. It does not work. And by the way, it's not my speculation that evidence is well sorted out. Conventional methods hardly do anything at all. But it makes a ton of money. So heart disease remains a number one money maker for the healthcare system. My colleagues doing great. They make seven figures dealing this crap out. And yet no one's paying the real tragedy, I think, is that this attention is saturated fat LDL cholesterol statin drugs, PCS gain. I is that it took everybody's attention away from the real causes of very serious collection of diseases. And among among the factors is small LDL particles, not LDL cholesterol, but small the actual lipoproteins themselves, where they come from consumption of the amylopectin A of wheat and grains sugars delivers conversion of sugars and carbohydrates to VLDO particles that are themselves also cause for heart disease and VLDO particles cause formation small LEL. And that whole process that process called Liberty Novel Hypogenesis is amplified by insulin resistance, abdominal visceral fat, deficiency vitamin D, deficiency omega three fatty acids and magnesium, SIBO and end portal vein endotoxemia. That is so that's something that's also as you know is widely neglected. When you have microbes in the colon and small intestine, the venous drainage for that part of the body is not to the systemic venous system, but to the portal venous system, as you recall, to the liver. So your poor liver takes a beating from the flood of endotoxin. And one of the effects is the amplification of insulin resistance, thereby the production of VLDO and small LDL particles. They're still flushing about cholesterol and these garbage statin drugs and not paying any attention to the actual. This is why heart disease remains remains the number one killer of men and women. It remains the biggest money maker. Your local hospital adds an $80 million new wing for cardiovascular care and has parties to celebrate their failure to prevent heart disease. I lost track of the original question, but I mean, you're so right. It's such a shame and these statin drugs just poison your mitochondria. So they bring the cholesterol levels down, but on a cellular level, you're actually getting sicker and aging faster. So you really have to get their root cause. And that's what you're talking about. Diet, right? Addressing things you're putting in your body, your diet. I was talking about the super body. You've got a three week super body program that goes with your book. And so obviously you're making diet changes or adding in these foods to help support, nourish the gut microbiome, taking out these amyloid fibers, right? Taking out the grains, things like that. What other nuances do you have in that program? So I do remind people that those four nutrients we talked about, Omega 3 fatty acids, magnesium, iodine and vitamin D, once again, synergize to normalize that insulin resistance driver of a lot of these problems that they, those, it's kind of boring, but they still count. And they're still, as you know, my colleagues are still confused. They'll say stupid things. I'll just get more sun. Well, no, that may be part of them. It's not the full answer. Or you can't get nutrients from, from supplements, of course, or you're going to have more expensive urine, all the stupid things that my colleagues tend to say. So those things still do matter. There's some variation in need, but they still matter. And then addressing the microbiome, that's the hairy part here. That is, we're going to restore microbes that you've lost, but specifically chosen for their capacity to colonize the small intestine and colon and produce bacteria. And that has proven to be far more effective than I ever thought. I did it to help get people some, some relief from some of the discomfort and gas and bloating of SIBO and colonic dysbiosis, but I did not expect to see hydrogen gas. So I don't know if you guys know about these devices, the air device. Yeah. So, so the original measures hydrogen gas, more recent measures hydrogen gas and methane, you blow into it, talks to your smartphones, zero to 10, a rise in four for hydrogen gas is abnormal. And I thought SIBO, for instance, was rare. I thought, oh no, no, no, no, nobody has it. Then I started testing for it. Lo and behold, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. Well, how do you get rid of it? Well, you could take a conventional antibiotic, but why would you? There's some herbal antibiotics that have had some validation, like the Candidabactin Regimen, the FCSO, this biocide regimen. But I used that logic of what about we storing microbes that colonize small intestine, produce bacteria, and that whole thing, the diet change, the nutrients that synergize to minimize insulin resistance, restoration of microbes with specifically ones that colonize a small intestine and produce bacteria, as well as other adjunctive strategies for rebuilding a healthy microbiome, lots of fermented foods, kimchi, sour, crowd, fermenting veggies on your kitchen counter, kefiers, those kinds of things, lots of fibers from root vegetables, polysaccharides, mushrooms, et cetera. All those things matter. And then we normalize hydrogen gas or get rid of whatever phenomenon you have. By the way, food intolerances, of course, are one of the most powerful telltale signs that you have a case of SIBO really bad. If you're intolerant to peanuts or eggs or histamine containing foods, we know you got SIBO and you got it really bad. Unfortunately, people have been talking, go low FOD maps or avoid nightshades like eggplants and tomatoes or avoid fructose containing foods or all kinds of variations. But the underlying cause, of course, is the disruption of your gastrointestinal microbiome, like the histamine. The histamine intolerance is the toughest because people say this to me. They say, well, I tried to do the, we say SIBO yogurt, Rutter-Eye Gas-Roy, Soutilus. And we know that Rutter-Eye produces histamine, some histamine. And my histamine tolerance got worse. I had asthma, skin rash, runny nose, science congestion, at whatever, whatever. And histamine therefore been labeled as a bad, bad thing. No, histamine normal as you know, signal molecule. It's like insulin. You need insulin. Type 2 diabetics have extremely high levels, but the problem is not insulin itself. And so we don't blame histamine. It's a natural, natural, if we turned off all histamine, you would die within hours. So the problem with histamine intolerance, of course, is that people have lost dozens of species that previously processed histamine for you. So the key is not to just minimize your histamine containing food. You could do that in the beginning, but to restore microbes. And we do this, we achieve that with all those things, Rutter-Eye Gas-Roy, Get Rid of SIBO. One of the peculiar things that no one quite understands in this conversation got started by the Sonnenbergs, Eric and Justin, husband and wife team at Stanford. They did a very exhaustive thorough study where they compare, where they examine the effects of lots and lots and lots of fermented foods. So the curious thing about fermented foods, of course, so let's say sauerkraut, a real sauerkraut, not the garbage that's in brine and vinegar, but actual fermented sauerkraut. What microbes are in there? Well, it's got microbes like Luganastach mesenteroides, it's got Pedecochus species, Pedecochus pentasaceus, it's got Lactobacillus plantarum, it's got a whole bunch of things in there. Most of those microbes don't take up resonance in the GI tract, you poop them out. But somehow, in their passage from mouth to toilet, they nourish and trigger the expansion of those beneficial mice, like fecalobacterium. By what mechanism? Nobody knows. Feeding, maybe they were present low numbers hitting in the sequestria and the mucous baritone, no one knows. Maybe you're more receptive to it from the environment, nobody knows. But somehow all those things we talked about, restoration, keystone microbes, Roto-Ri Gas, etc., fermented foods and the non-colonized microbes, fibers, rebuild something closer to a healthy microbiome. One of the uncertainties is, what if your listeners said, well, the people in the Brazilian rainforest, in the Amazon, they have a different microbiome, people in the jungles of New Guinea, very different microbiome, should we try to mimic them? Well, that's tough, because they have stuff we don't have, never will have. They have, for instance, all kinds of spirochete species. They have, by the way, more methanogens than we do. They have more proteobacteria, E. coli, than we do, yet they have no consequences of it. So a lot of times we say, okay, if you're constipated, you've got methanogen overgrowth. Well, do we? Or do we have what appears to be an effect of methanogens in the context of an otherwise disrupted microbiome? And I think that's where we're headed. Yeah, it's a great analysis. And I would say your microbiome is going to shift based on the foods that you're eating. And so a lot of these hunter-gatherer tribes, when they're eating a lot of different foods that we're eating, and they're exposed to a lot more toxins, right? Well, not toxins, but they're supposed to a lot more toxins, environmental toxins, but they're supposed to a lot of pathogens on a regular basis. A lot of their, a lot of times they're eating foods that are more raw, that, you know, they're not cleaning their foods just like we do. And so they have a greater stress tolerance for the pathogens than we do, right? And so we consume those foods, they can be a little bit more stressful on our system. Now, final question is, you've been talking about this fermented yogurt, non-yogurt. So can you give us the recipe that you're using to make that? So we need to source the microbe first. I wouldn't, the original source I guy, I wouldn't use anymore, and I, you can edit this part, I can't mention the source that I would use because I'm having an association with the company, and the FTC watches us for this. So all I can say is, so I list the sources in the super gut book, as well as the super body book, the commercial sources, they're relatively, they're relatively easy to obtain. But in the book, you do need a device that maintains something around human body temperature. It could be a yogurt maker. It could be, ideally, a yogurt maker that has adjustable timing and temperature. It could be an instant pot with a yogurt setting. It could be a sous vide, sticker basin, anything, anything. If you live in a tropical climate, your porch, not enclosed porch, where it's 95 degrees, that would work. So it doesn't make this harder than it should. So a device to maintain something close to human body temperature. Like a mason jar, right? Like, could work. It might in your climate, yeah, in your porch or something like that, you don't want the raccoons getting to it. So you have to get it. Yeah, it works. Right. I like to add inulin. You don't have to, but you'll get more microbes. You'll also get a thicker, richer end result. So I add like a tablespoon of inulin to a court or leader. I use organic half and half. And by the way, some people say, I don't want to use dairy. That's okay. You can use coconut milk, canned coconut milk. You can ferment other things also. There's a basic rule of thumb we follow. There's, think of fermentation of microbes. There's human body temperature microbes, roti, gas, or I, many others. There's room temperature fermenting microbes. Those are the microbes in those fermented foods, the Luganas, the Pidiakakis. I mentioned that because if you want to ferment, let's say, roti as sour crowd, it's not going to do very well because it doesn't really reproduce well at room temperatures. You really have to hate it. Likewise, some of the fermenting might not all, if you ferment that human body temperature, you'll die or not reproduce very effectively. So you want to bear that in mind when you start. And this is all, by the way, all the recipes are provided in these books. So for the root, you want to keep it around 98 degrees, right? Somewhere in that kind of 98 to 100 degree range. Yeah, 98 to 102, maybe as high as 104. When you get to the 108 and higher, I pointed out because some people have a yogurt maker that's equipped to ferment usual yogurt microbes, Streptococcus thermophilus lactobacillus vulgaris, that ferment at higher temperatures, like 114. So you might have a preset device where you can adjust the temperature. And it's 112, 114 degrees and it will kill roti-ri gas-ri. So that's why, have to be a little bit mindful of the temperature. If you don't know what the temperature of your device is, run it. Plug it in, run it. Maybe with some water, if it's a water bath kind of device, with a cheap $8 thermometer from Wal-Mart or Target or something, and see what the temperature is after about 30 minutes. If it's 114, you know it's going to kill your roti-ri and other microbes. But if it's, let's say 102, you're okay. That's a great insight. You know, the different temperature ranges that you're fermenting at are going to create different microbes. And so you're talking about the ones that thrive inside of our bodies. So they're going to thrive at the temperature of our human body, roughly that 98 to 102. So really great insight. This has been a great interview, Dr. Davis. And again, guys can check out his book. It's called Super Body. So go out, you can find it at bookstorereportsamazon.com, all the link in the show notes here. And you can also check out Dr. Davis' website, drdavisinfinethelph.com. And thanks so much for this great interview and your time. Any last words, inspiration here for our audience? Only that, it's sad to say. You got to turn to Dr. Jockers. I hope you turn to me. And the last person to consult on issues of health, and it shouldn't be this way, is the mainstream doctor. Their motivations are misplaced too often, not always, I'm generalizing, but too often. And if the answer to heart disease prevention is lipitor, or the answer to losing weight is cut your calories, move more, eat less, you know, you've got an uninformed doctor who's out of touch. And so I applaud people like Dr. Jockers, who make it their business, make it their mission to educate people, and are not selling you a $12,000 a month biologic drug. Yeah, definitely. We always say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So there you go. Go out and get Dr. Davis' book, Super Body, and we'll see you all on a future interview. Be blessed, everybody. Well, that's all for this show. And I want to thank you again for spending your valuable time with me today. And if there was something you heard in this interview that you have questions on, or you want to dive into deeper, then DrJockers.com is the best place to go. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider taking just a quick moment and giving us a great review. Your reviews help us influence more people and transform more lives. And if you took something valuable away from this episode, then please share it with someone in your life. We know it can help. We'll see you soon on our future podcast. Be blessed, everybody.