Welcome to Music Matters Podcast with Darrell Craig Harris, talking about all things music with celebrities, artists, music business insiders and more. Ryan Sully from Builders and Butchers. How are you doing today? Great. How are you doing? I'm very good. So you are up in Portland, correct? Yeah. So you guys are a Portland-based band. You've been around for quite a while. I think since 2005, right? That's right. That's right, yeah. Yeah. So for most bands, that's a lifetime. It's pretty rare to be able to keep it together for that long. You guys have your seventh album coming out on April 3rd called No Tomorrow. So how have you guys been? It sounds like you've been very busy. I know you do a lot of shows too as well. Yeah. You know, we're not as busy. So the height of the touring aspect of the band was kind of like 2008 to maybe 2012. We toured a ton. And then we had kids and got married and had to get different kinds of jobs where we couldn't just like, you know, have a, you know, a pizza delivery job and quit it to go on tour. We kind of had to do. So we've kind of really played a lot less, but consistently every year, you know, we play, we try to play 20 or 30 shows different places and mix it up and try to be strategic. But you know, that's trying to like thread that needle of not ruining your life, but also being able to play. Keep the band viable. Yeah. I know I'm a musician too. So I totally get all that. What you want to do when you're in your 20s, it's harder to do it. You get older. You guys have managed to keep it alive. The new album sounds killer. I was checking it out a couple of days and your all your music is great. What kind of style you would say you're in? To me, it seems like Americana, but with an edge is an intensity to what you guys do. Yeah. Somebody said recently it was apocalyptic Americana and I like, I like that. Yeah. There's an intensity. And are you the lead singer? Is there a different? I am. You are. Okay. Yeah. Cause your voice is really cool. It's very interesting. I hear like a little bit of Jack Blight smashing pumpkins in there. You know, a couple of different things. I don't like the label people, but I really love your voice. Like I said, it has a certain intensity. Who are some of your early influences as a guitarist and singer? Geez. I love singers with weird voices and not classically trained. I feel like, you know, whatever the songs come from, they come from a different, more interesting place. So like, of course my like, my North Star is kind of like Tom Waits. Oh, okay. You know, or like, obviously Bob Dylan. I love, like, and, and, and as far as like, um, an intensity or like, uh, you know, performance wise, like Nina Simone, like just being intense and, and really not leaving anything left after the show is kind of like the idea, like really get every ounce of it out. Yeah. And everybody you mentioned, and I always go back to kind of like Willie Nelson, Die Party, which has nothing to do with you two, but you hear a couple of notes and you know exactly who they are. And that's such, you think about all the billions of people in the world. That's such a rare thing. And you have a voice like that. It's a very unique voice. Thanks. So how, tell me about the band. You guys have, have you guys all stayed together, main the same guys since 2005 or has it been different members? Pretty, I mean, like pretty much like one guy left, you know, the band fairly early with some substance abuse and some mental health stuff. Um, but other than that, we are the same. Um, in the last few years, we've added a, like a viola player who's a good friend, but like the guys have remained kind of the same. Basically, I mean, a couple of them have switched positions in the band, but like we're all, you know, at the end of the day, we've all been friends for so long that, you know, it just makes it much easier. It's more like brothers than, than a typical band. And we, we have a lot of fun together when we're touring and we're playing together. And it's like a feels, even though it's work, it's work, but it feels like a vacation from like regular. Yeah, the band, the brothers kind of thing. I think that that's kind of the thing you hear about like bands like the Stones bands who have been together for a long time. Cause as you know, it's pretty rare for any band to be together that long for over almost 21 years, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, I, I, I don't know if I'm the best at this, but as, as the kind of front man and person driving the band, I really try to make sure, you know, every guy, every all the guys have different life stuff and just try to make sure everybody feels like they're not just getting bowled over by my desire or ego or something. And just be like, Hey, you know, we don't have to do this show. If it's going to wreck your life, like nothing is a, I know there's shows that like it's like we, you know, should it's a good financial thing or this sounds really fun, but try to just keep a long view of it and like, you know, we can skip that show if it's going to mess, mess things up for you or, you know, it's, it's very much a with a, with the idea of us just continuing in mind and not trying to like rule the world. Right. Yeah. And it keeps it, it keeps it more like a little bit more democratic. It's bad. It's hard to have a band fully democratic. Doesn't always work. No, it's, it's a, yeah, it's not, it is and it isn't, you know, it's basically like the, the UN Security Council, everybody has a veto vote. Yeah, there you go. But, but, you know, they, they use it sparingly. Yeah. Oh, I got you. I was reading that you guys kind of got your start doing a busking and home concerts. Tell me about that the early years of when you guys got started. Yeah, you know, we've all been in bands like punk, a lot of punk bands and just like weird, you know, whatever kind of bands and had done that thing. And all those bands kind of breaking up or winding down at the same time. So people, we just kind of like naturally just started like playing in our living room, just acoustically and we're like, this, this has some juice to it. I don't know how else to say it, but like, this is a cool sound and let's not plug in. Let's do something different. And so, you know, it made it awesome because we could show up anywhere and just wherever there was people, a line of people or like, you know, of a lot, something was happening downtown and we knew a bunch of people would be around, we'd just go and play. And it made us be able to like, I don't know, it was a great way to learn how to be a band without the pressure of a show or the pressure of getting an audience and just playing for the joy of playing. And I, for me, that's kind of carried over to some extent, just, you know, just kind of like the ethos is not like, hey, we're, we're the band in your audience. It's more like we're part of your party, you know. Yeah. And I think that that's important. It's also you mentioned too, it's important to remember why you started playing in the first place. I think a lot of musicians over as the years go by, they kind of sometimes forget that. It's like, yeah, this is supposed to be fun and I want to enjoy what I'm doing. Right. Right. Yeah. I think, you know, I see a lot of bands kind of, we have a lot of friends bands that have blown up and while, you know, it's like on one hand, it's like, yeah, you're super successful. It's almost like you're a slave to your success. And you, and you have so many people that are kind of like making money from your efforts that they're pushing and pushing and pushing. And, you know, it takes a lot to say no. Well, it takes a lot to say no. And, and you, and you like, you know, but then you think like, do I want to be doing this in three years or do I want to be doing this for the rest of my life? And if you want to be doing this for the long call, it's really important to figure out how, how to say no to things. Yeah. And I agree. Yeah. And in business as well. Yeah. That only play. So tell me about the year. I mean, obviously Portland has had a lot of great bands and just in that general, in that area, there's been a lot of great bands. And I've been up to Portland. I mentioned my brother lives up there. And in those early years with the club scene there, it was pretty vibrant. It seems like there was a lot of places. You tell me, but it seems like that was the case. Yeah. There's, there's still, I mean, for the size of the city, Portland has an unbelievable music scene of bands and places to play, like the number of places to play, there's a hundred places to play, you know, and its city is not that big. So compared to other cities of the same size, it's like, you know, four or five times the opportunities. So there's this, but the other really cool thing about Portland, at least for the most part, you go to cities like LA or even San Francisco, New York. There's this real competition, like between the bands and you're playing here, so I can't play there, you know, and here just like feels like people who are like that don't get supported. And it's more like just like, yeah, we all want to see the scene be good. You know, we all want to support each other. And like one of my biggest, one of my, like this point where we're at, favorite things is, you know, if I have a friend who has a band that's new or starting out, I love to like have them open for us and play in front of like a full show and like give them that feeling and that little boost. It's like, it's awesome. Like there's nothing bad about that, you know, it's great to like, you know, and a lot of bands do that too, or like they want to, they want their friends to succeed. Yeah. And I think, and I feel like that too. Like I've always felt like being a musician was sort of like you mentioned brotherhood or like colleagues were colleagues. It's not competition. I've never seen it that way. And I understand where that comes from. And I come from the LA music scene in the 80s and 90s. So I totally, I totally get that whole deal. But tell me about songwriting because I really like you guys have a very unique thing and we were kind of talking about that before we started. You have sort of like that aggressive Americana thing. And it's just really, so tell me about songwriting and how you guys approach that. Yeah, you know, it's for me, like I generally bring the songs kind of like the melody and the chords, you know, and the words to the band. And then we do rearranging out of bridge, extend parts and take it apart. But, you know, I had the kind of the bones of the song. And it's weird with this band, it's very. Like, you know, when I was a lot younger, I used to write a lot more like personal songs, like I think most people do. And I realized that like those weren't fun for me to sing and didn't connect with people. But then when I started writing like story songs and more like metaphorical songs that connected with people more for whatever reason. And so that's just kind of continued on with this band. And it's, you know, you can draw from a more interesting place because a story could be about anything, you know, if it's personal. I've always like think sometimes, unless it's like a really good song, I'm like, why are you whining about your love life or what? You know, yeah, I don't care about your love life. I don't care about your love life and a million love songs have been written. But like, has anybody written a story song about what it's like to live in the trench in World War One for a year or some weird thing? And it's like, or some historical thing or, you know, I find the I'm really captivated by the story of the the American West, you know, is such a fascinating story and how the everything happened there. And so I really like kind of write from that place a lot of the time. Yeah, who are some of your favorite songwriters? Like I said, like, like, you know, Tom Waits, Bob Dylan. I mean, I have many, many really close friends like my friend Dustin Hammin, who is a band called Run On Sentence, that like he's my favorite songwriter and he's one of my very best friends. And he he's very much like nomadic guy who just goes and plays shows around. And, you know, yeah, I mean, I've got a million different. I love everything from like old punk rock to Nirvana to, you know, all kind. Like, it's such a cop out answer, but I love everything. You know, my daughter's, you know, 13 and getting into Jeff Buckley. And I'm like, re getting into Jeff Buckley. I'm like, oh, yeah, dude, he's amazing. And like, or, you know, Rufus Wainwright is one of my favorites, too. Like there's there's things to pull from every songwriter and there's brilliance in everybody's approach. So I just like to listen and really like, like, what's what's that guy doing in this song? That's that's really interesting. And that's a great way to be because you're always learning if you keep an open mind like that and you're willing to kind of invest your time into new artists and people also people that have been around for a long time. But like you mentioned, you kind of rediscover them. And that's exciting. Tell me about this album because I know tomorrow did you guys self produce? Yeah, we saw our drummer and keyboard player kind of multi instrument instrumentalist guy Ray Rood, you know, took the reins of producing. So and we all had a voice in that. So yeah, we self produced it. He has an incredible situation where he basically, you know, his roommate has an at home recording studio with like amazing gear and mics and everything. And it's like a professional studio. So we have access to that without having to own it or without having to be charged to use it. So we have this kind of like really cool situation. So we could record over there anytime. And, you know, the records tend to come together slowly because of everybody's schedules, but, you know, just keep plugging away until it gets done. Yeah. And it's it's it's nice to have that because obviously, you know, it's so so rare. You know, and I happen to go into debt to do a new album, which is which is awesome. And, you know, you're at the studio and the clock is ticking. And so sometimes, you know, some cool stuff can come out of that pressure. But sometimes it's just a bummer because you spend a thousand dollars on nothing. So it's kind of like, you know, yeah. And you still, you know what? And the album sounds great. So it's it's really it's often not about the money. You know, people have and these days people are making great albums on their laptop. It just depends on it also depends on the song that the music is touching people, reaching people that that's the most important factor, I think. Do you guys have plans of doing new shows to help promote this album or what's coming up with that? Yeah, we're doing well in, you know, we have a couple of release shows in Seattle and Portland on the night and the 16th of April. Those are kind of coming up. The one on the 16th, I'm really excited about because there's a band of cellists called the Portland cello project. Oh, cool. There they do like all kinds of and so they're going to join us on about half of our set for the release show. And it's just we did a show with them before. And it's just epic like to have, you know, multiple cellos chugging along. And then we've got we've got a tour in Germany in May and then we're doing, you know, Southwest in June and then in September, we're doing a bunch of shows in like the Southeast of America, which we don't do very often. So we're we're doing not a ton, but doing, you know, some this this kind of thermo and full. Yeah, strategic. Is that's the word? Yeah, we do strategic. We do we call them rock and roll weekends. We go out, you know, for a four day weekend and, you know, just enough to like have fun and make a little bit of money and just like, you know, learn the songs, play the songs and play places that we need to play. So right. Yeah. And it's, you know, that's the thing, like as I've gotten older, I'm 60 and I've been playing for since, you know, whatever, four decades. And it's nicer to be able to kind of pick and choose instead of having to do gigs. Do you find that that's a nice luxury to have that? Absolutely. Like, yeah, yeah. It's it's a totally different like mindset as far as like, yeah, we were like, this sounds like fun. This is a cool opportunity. Let's do it. And if we can't do it, it's OK. You know what I mean? So it's it's much more casual and it's just way more fun. Yeah, fun is the key word. Fun, fun equals longevity. That that's a that's a really important thing. So you guys have been doing this for a long time and you've learned a lot, I'm sure along the way. What's some advice you could give to younger musicians, younger bands, in terms of like keeping your keeping it all together and finding a path to move forward. Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. I would say if you're the front person of a band, you're the person driving it. Keep the relationship between you and the rest of the people you're collaborating with as the most important thing, preserving that relationship, fostering that relationship and put that before your needs to have like control or, you know, a dictatorship or whatever. Like like put put your band first and make them feel heard and appreciated and that everybody has make sure everybody like has a voice in the band. And it's not just like you taking over for your your vision. If if you want to be a band for a long time. Yeah, it's it's nurturing that that relationship. And thinking about like, you know, you're you're playing for an hour and a half. But when you're on tour, you're living together for the rest of the hours and sleeping a lot of times in the same room and whatever. So the hang and the compatibility is as important, if not more important than the music, the musicianship or like, you know, how good or how like or even musical vibes, like it's it's better. The personal vibes are extremely important. Yeah, you mentioned the hang and that I've often said that too. Like it's great to have virtual players, but if they can't hang in as they can't because most of the time is spent off the gig. Most of the time is spent in the van, right? And a lot of times because of the way brains work, a lot of people who are virtual also players are not like social animals. Exactly. Yeah. They want to sit in their room and master their craft and not like have a beer and sit by a lake. Yeah, have excellent social skills. Yeah, it's it's it's definitely a challenge. Talk about you guys have really big streaming numbers on Spotify and consistent. I think you're like over one hundred and fifty thousand a month listeners, which is quite a that's quite an achievement. And also you have a huge amount of views on your YouTube page. Talk about how that's helped you guys and and been been useful for what you what you've been doing. Yeah, I'd say it's like a I it's really the Spotify thing is this weird black box to me. I am not a huge fan of Spotify because I can like the business practices and just for a number of reasons. They don't, you know, pay bands fairly and they and they really like, you know, push the Taylor Swift's of the world. And, you know, the indie artists are kind of left picking up the scraps as far as like the bandwidth of what they push. Right. And so that is a bummer. But at the same time, it's nice to see like, OK, this is a song that I didn't expect for people to resonate with as much as they are. So, you know, you can kind of look at the plays and look at from each album and like, oh, people are really liking this song. Let's incorporate that. And so you can kind of like you can if you're a band that wants to do this, you could make a set list that is more fan friendly, you know, because you know, OK, people are listening to this. They probably came to hear these five or six songs. So we kind of have to play those. So you have a lot more information as far as like what you are, you know, audiences liking the the the weird part about it is like, you know, there are bands where, you know, you know, the band Pedro the lion. Are you familiar with that band? Yeah, yeah, I've heard of them. OK, so like he he has a third of our monthly listeners on Spotify, but he can sell out a 1200 person place here in Portland two nights in a row and we can get half that for one night. You know, it's like the numbers are really don't necessarily correlate to like ticket sales. It's it's super, super weird, you know. Yeah, it's always the conversion into sales is the challenge. And I mean, the thing is, too, as you mentioned, that people also with streaming, they're not used to paying for music so much anymore. And and also concerts have gotten pricey, unfortunately. If I was going to give getting back to your question before, if I was going to give somebody some advice who's doing a band now, I would say find find novel ways to promote your band that aren't what everybody else is doing. So don't buy, you know, an Instagram ad instead. Like for this record, we like basically got the address of everybody who'd ever ordered anything from the band. And that took a lot of work and then mailed them postcard with like, here's a QR code to buy the record and get on and get on like an email list and like mine your emails. You'll get so much further, like really interacting with your fans directly rather than hoping, you know, that you can through some weird gatekeeper thing like Facebook or Instagram, where they like, you know, purposefully devalue your post unless it goes viral. Yeah. And and also, too, those are people that have already invested in the band. They've they're already they've already proven that they're interested in spending not only spending money, but they want to know what you guys are doing. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think anything that's physical, people are so digitally whatever you want to say, it's just it's everything is so digital now that like any physical anything, people are like, wow, a thing, a real thing. The tactile. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you guys actually have you have a as a 12 inch final that's coming out with this album as well, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. It's like, I, you know, I grew up with albums, of course. I'm I may be older than you, I don't know. But but I love I still love that experience. I just did an interview with Sun Records, and they sent me three different vinyl, three different vinyls. I was like, oh, how cool. So yeah, one of the one of the kind of secret weapons of our band is that, you know, our the artist that does all of our art is, you know, the same guy. And he's so talented and he's an old friend from high school and has become a successful comic book and just general artist for hire. And so we'll just send him the demos and he comes up with these album art that's just like, like our first record won a bunch of awards. Some something or other for album art a year. Like it's he's unbelievable. So yeah. And that you mentioned that, actually, I saw that. And it's really cool. All your album art stuff is really fun. And that's important because that's what people see. That's that's the sort of the face of the band on the record, of course. So tell people how they can find you if they want to check out schedule and maybe buy an album or that kind of thing. Yeah, just the builders in the butchers.com would be the best. We have all of our shows are listed there that we're doing this year. All of our merch that's out. I wanted to mention, too, we just. Somebody just a fan living in Australia who makes role playing games, made a role playing game based on the band. And it just got funded through Kickstarter and got like fully funded. So that'll be available later this summer. Like we got we've I'm really excited about the different things we have coming out. So it's fun to be creative and just try different things. That that's always always fun for the fans, I think, too. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. I love what you guys are doing and I love supporting indie bands, especially you guys, because you've been you've been around for so long and out there killing it. It's exciting. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for the, you know, doing this and helping us get the word out. I really, really also appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. So everybody, please check out the Builders of the Butchers, the new album, which is the seventh album. No Tomorrow is coming out April 3rd. Check out the website and social media pages and all that stuff. And also, the YouTube is really fun. You have a lot of videos up there with all the songs from the albums. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Ryan. Yeah, thanks, Darrell. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for joining us. And please consider subscribing to our podcast and follow us on our social media pages for guest announcements.
