This episode of All Songs Considered comes to you from the NPR Music Podcast, where you will also find New Music Friday every Friday with your host, Stephen Thompson. Hello, Robin. Stephen, you're also a host for Pop Culture Happy Hour. You report on the Billboard charts. I was going to try to promote some of your stuff. I was like, you really actually do quite a lot. It's alarming. I thought this guy didn't actually work here. Yeah. Every day I'm like, how is he still here? And then I had to make a list here. Does he get a check? Are we paying him for this? You've also been known to write the occasional feature for NPR, including one that you have been doing for a number of years now. Every year around this time of year, you have been ranking the best song nominees for the Oscars. Yeah, I've been doing this since 2019. Every single year that I have written this feature, Diane Warren has been nominated. I think she's like on her ninth year in a row now. She is on her ninth year in a row being nominated from her total 17 nominations for Best Original Song. It would be, in a way, it would be more mind-boggling if most of the songs were any good. We're going to get into it on this episode because that's what we're going to do. We're going to, in your own words, cruelly, cruelly rank the Best Song nominees for this year's Oscars. What is it? What's your criteria? Is this like, do you rank these based on just the quality of the song or what you think the chances are that it's going to win? It's definitely never based on odds of victory, though usually at some point in the article I will say, like, expect this one to win. You know, this is the odds on favorite or whatever. But I'm really trying to rank them just in order of quality. And I actually think this is a pretty good crop of songs. Oh, yeah. Certainly compared to last year. Yeah. Last year was, I thought, an unusually weak batch. This is an unusually strong batch. I'm going to just let you rank these and, you know, I'll defer to you. I think we're probably going to be mostly in agreement here. But let me just, I'll quickly say what the nominees are and then we'll just start with number five and work backwards. You mentioned Diane Warren, her song Dear Me from the Relentless, the Relentless documentary. The documentary Diane Warren colon Relentless. That's the name of the documentary. I Lied to You from Sinners, Sweet Dreams of Joy from Viva Verdi, that documentary. Golden from K-pop Demon Hunters and then Train Dreams from the film Train Dreams. What do you got at number five? It is the song Dear Me from the documentary Diane Warren colon Relentless performed by Kesha. Everything you're feeling now won't always keep you down There'll be better days Dear me, don't worry about it You're gonna be alright You'll see, you'll see Dear me, it's gonna be alright, alright Trust me, all of the pain is all gonna fade You might think you can't do it But you're gonna get through this It'll all get better soon, you'll see Dear me I know you feel like nobody understands What you're going through You just wanna run and hide Everyday feeling like the whole world's against you Dear me It gets better You're gonna be just fine You'll see, you'll see Dear me, it's gonna be alright, alright Trust me, all of the pain is all gonna fade You might think you can't do it But you're gonna get through this It'll all get better soon You'll see That's what I'd say to you Dear me Dear me Dear me, dear me I'm writing you this letter To let you know You might think you can't do it But you're gonna get through this And we'll all get through Dear me, dear me I'm writing you this letter It's gonna get better Everything's gonna be alright You'll see Oh, that's what I'm saying to you Dear me It is staggering. It is staggering the number of songs she's had nominated. Seventeen. Seventeen. And she's never won. No, she has never won. And I will say, in Diane Warren's defense, I think Diane Warren should have won two Academy Awards. All right, let's hear it, because I have won. Okay, I think she should have won twice and been nominated roughly five times. Okay. I think I Don't Want to Miss a Thing should have won over When You Believe from Prince of Egypt in the late 90s. I think her song with Lady Gaga, Till It Happens to You, should have won over the Sam Smith James Bond song. That was 2016. That's the one that I had down. I thought, of all of the years, that's the one. If you had to pick one. It was the strongest song in that field. It was the most heartfelt song in the field. It was the song that had the most to say in the field. Incredible performance during the ceremony, too. Incredible performance by Lady Gaga. It is a great song. The problem is this particular run that Diane Warren has been on ever since, the songs feel extremely generic. This is my biggest problem. She's been writing the same song for like 40 years. I'm not dismissing the themes of the songs. They're important. They resonate with people. But it's always, we're going to get through this. We're stronger. It's, I'm standing with you. I'll rise. A lot of them are like, I will prevail over the obstacle that I face. And very often the lyrics, you know, are not much more insightful than you would find on the nearest throw pillow. I will say this. I'm not a big fan of many of her songs, but I became a fan of her after I watched that documentary. Oh, she's a pistol. She really, I really, she won me over. That's one word for her. She is relentless. But, you know, all the stuff about her childhood and her relationship with her parents, particularly her mom, that really kind of broke my heart. And I came away from that documentary not liking her music any more than I already did, but liking her a whole lot more. I did find it illuminating as somebody who ends up having to write about her at this time every single year. I appreciated seeing the movie and kind of getting that perspective on it. But listening to these songs in a vacuum, this is the fifth best out of five. So Dear Me, from Diane Warren, in at number five, what do you have at number four? Well, now we're getting into songs I really like. It really does start getting more difficult. Like these next couple and then the next couple. Exactly. It's either going to be like what three or four are going to be and then one or two are going to be is where we might have some disagreement. Exactly. These are in tiers. And I don't think there's necessarily a wrong answer if you're ranking between three and four. I think these are both solid songs. The song I went with at number four is the song Train Dreams from Train Dreams, performed by Nick Cave and Bryce Destner. I've seen a grizzly big as a house Walk across an open plain Heard of a boy called Elvis something His voice could drive young girls insane I've seen a man from a mile away Shoot a bobcat through the brain But lately I've been having dreams Crazy dreams I can't explain A woman standing in a field of flowers Screaming a locomotive train Crazy dreams I go on for hours And I can't begin to tell you how that feels I seen an elk with twisted antloops throw bright lightning across the sky I seen a man with a broken curse leap from a bridge and try to fly I've seen a boy who was a dog who became a man who forgot to die Lately I've been having dreams, crazy dreams I can't explain A woman standing in a field of flowers And a screaming locomotive train Crazy dreams that go on for hours And I can't begin to tell you how that feels The space that connects me where I am now To the place where I'll one day be It's measured in the words that we speak And the strange and wondrous things I've seen It's measured in truth, it's measured in love measured in a tendency to pains measured by a girl in a field of flowers screaming dream of a midnight train this has been going on for years years and years and years and years and years and years and years and I can't begin to tell you how that feels Thank you. So I had this one at number three. Sure. Myself. I actually went back and forth. I switched them back and forth. Okay. Is number three for you Viva Verdi? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I had these two flipped. But well, you make your case and I'll tell you what I think. One of the criteria that I use when I'm ranking the songs is how is the song incorporated into the movie? And this song, absolutely, this is a closing credits song. And that sometimes provides a little bit of a strike against something as far as the purposes of ranking. I do appreciate about this song that it is directly expounding on the themes of the film. This is a song that is clearly written in concert with the film and the filmmaker. This is a movie that is about a life in total. It is about visions of death and kind of an accumulation of a mix of kind of traumas and wonders. And the song is about all of those things and really speaks directly to those things. Bryce Dessner gives it this kind of gorgeous, very Bryce Dessner-y arrangement. Nick Cave, who certainly has an extremely large amount of gravitas as a singer, as a performer, as a lyricist, somebody who has also lived a life full of trauma and wonder, invests the song with a lot of, like I said, gravitas. And I think it works very well. The only thing that ticked it from number three to number four for me is that it is not incorporated into the film. Interesting. You're dinging it for that because it is the only one that is just a true by the book. Kind of almost recitation of what happens in the film. Yeah, here's the end of the film. It's the credit sequence. So we need a song. So they go to Nick Cave and say, well, you write us a song about the movie that we can tack on in the end. I get that. But I guess if the whole point of having a song like that at the end of a movie is to sort of send you out of the theater in a certain headspace. I mean, I would assume the movie has done that. But if you need this song at the end, like, here's how you should feel. I think you couldn't have gotten anybody better for this than Nick Cave. His voice is perfect for it. It's earthy. It's kind of, it's oaky. It's like, you know. It is oaky. It's like it's full of whiskey and age and time. And that's sort of what the movie is. It follows this guy. You mentioned some of the themes. One of the other themes is just the vastness of time because you follow him from his childhood in the 1800s all the way into old age. I think he lives to be in the city. Into the 1960s. Into the 1960s. And to me, this was a stronger song than what you have. Yeah. I mean, I've really gone back and forth. And as we're discussing it, I'm like, maybe I should put it at number three because it is a strong song. And I will say, I mean, you saw Train Dreams, the film as well. I think it's a beautiful film. And it is a film that perfectly nails its final frame. Yeah. The final frame of the film. Can we? Is this a? I don't think. There's no reason to spoil it. OK. I mean, it's not a plot. It's not a plot point. It is just a perfect image to sum up that moment. And then you get in that final frame, you are then kind of drifting into the song. That is the perfect way to experience this song. And I think the power of the song is greater coming out of that scene than it is as a freestanding video on YouTube. So Train Dreams by Nick Cave from the film Train Dreams. You've got that at number four. all right we're cruelly ranking the best song nominees for the oscars this year stephen thompson here uh we've done let's see at number five we had diane warren's song dear me and then at number four you had trained dreams by nick cave and bryce desner so that means at number three you've got sweet dreams of joy from viva verdi ¶¶ Suddenly soaring higher, higher, pleasing the sound, say to thee. Burning, never heard, never rhyme. Spreading with spells of desire, resisting, and pressing, and finding a wrong explanation. Ah, sweet records of joy Ah, ah Fly, fly so high over time slipping by In a flow of desire we awaken Then suddenly sound bound to a wild and sea Fly into the world's love, friends who live We're been never learned and never quite Spread away spirits of desire Is this singing presence of life May our love and salvation Now, sweet dreams of joy Sweet dreams of joy Sweet dreams of joy Sweet dreams of joy So this is definitely the most left field. So left field. Entry in this category. A plus for something totally different. And honestly, like, I was impressed because, you know, they release a shortlist of the 15 kind of candidates for nomination a while before the nominations come out. And so you can see what songs are eligible for nomination. There are 15 of those songs. And when I was looking over that list, this was the one where I was like, well, there's absolutely no way that's getting nominated. And then it was. And I'm really glad that it was. I mean Viva Verdi the film itself is this very very slight documentary about a retirement home for musicians in Italy founded by the composer Giuseppe Verdi who died in 1901 And he wanted to create a place where retired musicians could kind of live without having to worry about anything and could mentor young artists. And the film itself, I don't know if the film contains enough insight to support a feature film. I think it might have worked better as a documentary short. But the song in question, which is excerpted about halfway through the film, is an operatic piece composed by Nicholas Pike and performed by Ana Maria Martinez. And it is this kind of lovely freestanding piece that gives you a sense of the emotion and depth and grace of what a piece like this can do. It is a very uplifting piece. It is called Sweet Dreams of Joy. I think lyrically, it's maybe a little cloying, but musically, it is really grand and sweeping and beautiful. And I think the story of this film is kind of interesting because the song, this song in question was released in 2017. That's how long they've been working on the film because it is absolutely eligible for an Academy Award. It was written for this film, but this movie was largely made so long ago that most of its subjects have died. Yeah. And, and so this film is finally coming out. It's, it's finally come out. You can, you can stream it on a streaming service called Jolt, which is like, are we just naming streaming services after energy drinks from the nineties? Well, there is prime. You can watch it on, you can watch it on surge plus, but you know, it is a very little scene film and it is a very little heard song. If you go to YouTube and kind of click on the videos for each of these songs, you know, how many times has the video for Golden from K-pop Demon Hunters been viewed on YouTube versus how many times has the video for Sweet Dreams of Joy been watched? It is like low five figures if you combine all of the YouTube videos of this song. Well, again, sort of like comparing it to the Diane Warren when you got Golden in the mix, it's just not a fair competition. But But everything that you said and just that I love, I actually don't find it terribly cloying. To me, it's like, again, it's more of a mood piece. They do sing at one point, time slipping by in a flow of desire, reawakened. But more than anything, though, it's really capturing just the awe and wonder that you might feel in old age if you're lucky enough to reach that. Yeah, if you have lived a full life. And so, yeah, it absolutely is a song where you take it when you take it in the context of the film, it accumulates more power lyrically. Absolutely. And I did just find like, man, that song absolutely worked on me. It created that kind of swell of wonder and joy that you would want a piece of music in this context to bring out. Some great little bits of wisdom in this film that I wrote down as I was watching it. Life is a maze in which you must not lose yourself. Life is a maze in which you must not lose yourself. I love that. Like it's not a road. It's a maze, right? Here's another one I wrote down. If you keep your mind busy, the body will follow. Yeah. We are old, but the music inside us is young. So you had it at number three, which brings us to... Now we are taking a gigantic leap. Huge leap here. And I have given this so much thought. and I'm betting that you and I don't agree on these two. I bet you're right. Okay, so you tell me what you think is number two. So what I went with at number two, and I agonized over this because I love not only both of these songs, but both of these films. At number two, and I will explain myself, at number two is I Lied to You from Sinners, performed by Miles Caton, written by Raphael Sadiq and Ludwig Goranson. Something I've been wanting to tell you For a long time It might hurt you Hope you don't lose your mind Well, I was just a boy About eight years old He threw me a Bible On that Mississippi road See, I love you, Papa You did all you could do And they say the truth hurts So I lied to you Yes, I lied to you. I love the blues. Somebody take me in your arms tonight Somebody take me in your arms tonight Somebody take me in your arms tonight Mmm, mmm, mmm, mmm. Mmm, mmm, mmm, mmm. Somebody take me in your arms tonight. Alright, alright. Somebody take me off tonight Somebody take me I hope we can stand it, stand it all But I'm only a fool, didn't preach at all See, I'm full of the blues, holy words I know the truth hurts, so I lied to you So the future, speak your words I know the truth Yes, I like you I love you I love you Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't you talk about you? Don't you? Will somebody take me? We need Chicken in your house. PLANNING THIS grouping You're a moan I will use Excellent You'll use Self acuerdo executive takes advantage of car Hisлей agency is Miami The senior directorial communications I mean, to me, this is just a staggering, staggering piece of music used more brilliantly in the context of the film than any of the other pieces in this bunch. But go ahead and you tell me why you think it's number two. And I fully acknowledge you agonized over this. I absolutely agonized over this because my favorite scene of any movie this year and my favorite scene of any movie for the last several years is the scene in Sinners in which this song plays. This song is performed at Smoke and Stack's juke joint in Sinners at about midway through the film. Miles Caton is performing the song. The song absolutely lyrically expands on the themes of the film. He is a preacher's son and he's sort of talking to his father in the song. The song then spins out into this fantasia where in the film it is incorporating not only thousands of years of music's past, but some ideas of music's future. And so you see tribal dances You see this kind of futuristic you know Jimi Hendrix of the year Like P guitarist There breakdancing There a DJ Beats come in. It's incredible. It is an incredible scene. The only reason I rank it at number two, first of all, I'll talk about number one in a second. If you take the song and divorce it from elements of the film having less to do with the song, If you remove the song from the visuals that Ryan Coogler adds, it loses some of its luster. If you listen to the song divorced from the film, I think there is a kind of midpoint of the song where the visuals are doing most of the work. And then the song soars visually and sonically at the end. Well, OK, so this is why I ask you. This is a minor quibble. This would blow away the field most years. This is why I ask what your criteria is, because if you're just talking like, is this just a great song versus this song? Is this also, you know, which is the better just song or is it how important is it to the movie? I would argue that this song is more important to the movie than what you have at number one. Golden is to K-pop Demon Hunters. Great song. Again, it's it's a real Sophie's Choice for me, too. But for me, what it came down to, I would have put Sinners at number one because it is such a critical part of the storytelling in the movie. That movie is almost half the movie it is without that scene. That scene, to me, is what takes that movie from this is a really great, fun popcorn movie to, oh, this movie is now blowing my mind. It is so, so, so hard to rank them. I think this is absolutely not only musically but just cinematically the best moment of Sinners. I don't think the movie would be only half the film it is without it because I think there are so many other incredible scenes in that movie. I'm totally exaggerating. But I will say that when this movie came out, I was like, Oscar, it is 100% a shoe. And then a little bit later on in the year, then we get Golden and we get K-pop Demon Hunters. And I thought, oh, no. Like these two songs should not have to go up against each other at the same Oscars because it is so close. It is really unfair that one of these films didn't come out last year. I mean, one of these songs is going to win, so I'm going to be thrilled. Can you imagine if this is the year they're like, Diane Warren, it's your time. We have neglected you for far too long. This is your year. All right. Well, so let's just go to number one. We'll talk about it and we'll hit the song and we'll let the song play us out here. So you've got Golden from K-pop Demon Hunters, number one. If you somehow have not heard the song, it is performed by EJ, Audrey Nuna, and Ray Ami. And in the film, Golden is performed in the film by the fictional K-pop group Huntrix. And it is like their hot new single. We are to believe as we watch the film that this hot new single is the biggest song in the world. That is one of the hardest asks that you could give songwriters writing a song for a movie. Well, that's true. This song that we are writing for this movie has to be seen as taking the world by storm. Well, you know what that makes me think? How many moments in movies where there's that thing that you've been imagining that they've set up and they never show it or whatever because they know, like, it doesn't matter. Your imagination is more powerful than anything we come up with. We're just not even going to bother. And then every now and then someone will do it and it works. like the the u.s version of the film the ring there's this vhs tape right that you can't watch you're gonna die and the whole time i'm watching the movie i'm like they're never gonna show that it's a mcguffin it's like you're never gonna see it's the suitcase in pulp fiction right exactly oh that's another great one but they do show the video and holy god in heaven it is the most horrified like they they could not have pulled it off better and that's so true in this case right When you set the bar for yourself that high. Oh, you're making, I don't know, man, you're starting to make a case here. And then you clear it. It has been promising this song throughout the film, and then the song is better than you think it's going to be. Yeah. That is the experience of watching this movie. This movie would not be, you said, you mentioned, you said about Sinners, like, oh, this wouldn't be, this would be half the movie without this song. What would this movie be without the exceptionally high quality and craftsmanship of the songs that run throughout it? Yeah, I don't know. Well, I guess the two distinctions that I was making with Golden and I Lied to You is I Lied to You seemed more important to the story and it is an incredible song. To me, Golden was a better performance maybe. Sure. Like the vocals on it are – I mean, EJ is a staggeringly talented singer. Insane. An insane performance on this song. But you're making a strong case. Well, and let's also take one more thing into consideration. And this is an X factor that nobody really wants to talk about when they're choosing things to win awards. But, I mean, both of these movies were phenomena. This soundtrack was a phenomenon. And the song, Golden, was one of the biggest hits of 2025. It absolutely blew up the charts. It was number one for eight weeks. It was a massive, massive pop cultural sensation of a variety that you don't usually get. And let's face it, Robin, these are not the only parallels between the movie Sinners and the movie K-pop Demon Hunters. There are like weird plot echoes. That's actually true, yeah. Between these two films. I'm not the first person to point that out. And you have two authentic cultural phenomena that like were made for these films like out of whole cloth. Well, I think Golden may be unstoppable at this point. I suspect as much. It got the Grammy. It got a Golden Globe already. Is that your prediction? It is my prediction in this category. I don't want to spoil the Oscars preview that we have on Pop Culture Happy Hour dropping this Friday where we predict we make all of our predictions in the major categories at this year's Oscars. But I will give you a sneak peek into that episode and say that I'm more bullish on Sinners' chances of winning major awards than some people are. I suspect that Sinners is going to have a very, very good night at the Oscars. I don't think it will win in this category. If it does, it might be a signifier of a greater sweep for that film. Well, as always, All Songs Considered wouldn't be possible without the help and support of Otis Harder, Deputy Director at NPR Music. The executive producer for NPR Music is Saraya Muhammad, and our fearless leader here at the Mothership is Sonali Mehta. Steven, in addition to Pop Culture Happy Hour, you will be back with a bunch of new releases on Friday. Yeah, we'll talk about the James Blake record. We'll also have a lightning round with picks from a bunch of members of the NPR Music staff. But for the other records that we're talking about for March 13th, you're just going to have to listen to the show. A friend of mine told me when he was a kid, he had to give oral book reports. He would just read the first page or a couple pages or whatever and say, and if you want to know more, you'll just have to read the book. All right. Thanks, Stephen. Thank you, Robin. I'm Robin Hilton. It's All Songs Considered from NPR Music. I was a ghost. I was alone. How to watch in. How to get. Given the throne, I didn't know how to believe. I was the queen that I'm meant to be. I lived too large, tried to pick both sides, but I couldn't find my own place. Caught a path left child, could've got too wild, but now that's how I'm getting paid. Could've seen your stage. I'm done hiding, now I'm shining like I'm born to be. We dreaming hard, we came so far now, I believe. We're going up, up, up It's our moment You know together we're going Gonna be, gonna be golden Up, up, up With our voices Don't want to get you so on then Gonna be, gonna be golden I'm done hiding Now I'm shining Like a butterfly Oh, our time No fears, no lies That's who we're born to be Waiting so long to break these walls down To wake up and feel like me Put these patterns all in the past now And finally live like the girl they all see No more hiding, I'll be shining Like I'm born to be Cause we are hunters Voices strong and I know I believe We're going up, up, up It's our moment You know together we're going Gonna be, gonna be golden Up, up, up with our voices Going together just a woman Gonna be, gonna be golden I'm done hiding Now I'm shining Like I'm part of it Oh, our time, no fears, no lies And soon we're part of it You know we're gonna be, gonna be golden We're gonna be, gonna be Gonna be, gonna be growing I gave it another duty You know that it's our time, no fears, no lies And soon we're part of it We'll see you next time.
