Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America! (with Bronwyn Newport)

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I can give you a little spoiler. There's discussion about my citizenship coming on the show. I have an event around it. And I think in confessional, they didn't ask me, of course, because I'd already studied, but I think they asked the other women some of the questions from the citizenship test. So if that makes the episode, I would love to see how many of them know the answers to those questions. I cannot wait to find out. Hey, everybody, it's John LoveIt. Welcome back to LoveIt, relieve it, presents Bravo America. I'm sitting down with some of my favorite personalities from reality TV, because you cannot understand the dynamic and politics today if you don't understand the dynamics of reality television. This is how Congresswoman Sarah McBride put it on Ponce, America, earlier this year. Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are treating me for a couple of reasons. One, it's because they want attention, right? They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention in a body of 435 people. And the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw a wine in their face. Today, I am joined by the one and only Bronwyn Newport from the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I talked to Bronwyn just before she went to record this year's reunion. It was a great conversation. Bronwyn opens up about what it's like to live her life on camera, what it's like to see herself in ways maybe she didn't expect. She opens up about the on-screen dynamics between her and her husband Todd as well as with her mother. Bronwyn also reflects on what it was like leaving the Mormon church in ways in which she didn't feel supported when she was younger and why that has led her to stand up for trans kids and gay kids today. What I appreciated most about this conversation is how thoughtful Bronwyn is about Real Housewives, about why she went on the show, about celebrity and having an image and being vulnerable and trying to build real friendships in this manufactured environment and not only what she's learned about these other women, but what it's taught her about herself. So I think you really enjoy this episode with Bronwyn. You can also check out her sub-stack threads of individuality and Real Housewives of Salt Lake is airing right now on Bravo. That further ado, from a new port. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ So out of the gate, you show up for your first episode and you make it clear you're gonna bring some looks that you're gonna show up with some style. So here's my question. Have you noticed in your, is now your second season that other housewives have stepped up their looks in competition? I don't know if it's competition, but I think like when you raise the baseline, right? There's an expectation that everybody has to play at that level. Maybe I'd like to think that about myself. You've raised the game, you've raised the bar. You've raised the bar. Christians here on O said recently that you're the only housewife he likes to dress in part because you actually pay for the clothes. And then you have style. He appreciated that some of the looks you brought in your first season were just things that you had from him. So in all honesty, most of what I wore in my first season, I set out to wear things I already owned. I didn't want to purchase anything for filming. It's always really last minute anyway. It's kind of like tomorrow you're doing a mob themed party and there's not a ton of storefronts in Utah that I shop at anyway. A lot of stuff comes in FedEx, okay? For other places. So it was like this fun drag race challenge for me all the time. What did I have in my closet that I could restyle? And it was a way that I always knew I was showing up really as myself, cameras or not, if I wore things I already had. So I wanted to talk to you about the most powerful reality TV engine in America today, which is the Mormon church. Somehow, why are people so obsessed with Mormons on television? I don't know. I guess I got out of Mormonism at the wrong time because I got out of the church and then they blew up on reality TV at Instagram. I know that a lot of the bloggers originally like Instagram Mommies and all that kind of stuff, Mommie bloggers were from this era of Mormonism that really pushed journaling. And like scrapbooking and Instagram was like this beautiful new tool to do that with. But yeah, I think Utah's just this kind of cluster of very odd personalities trying to manage in a high demand religion for sure. Are you watching Secret Lives in Mormon? Why? I just started. I had not watched because it felt really close to me and I sometimes always think, maybe I wouldn't want people to just know me from the show. So I try to give other people that benefit, but I couldn't stay away from it. What do you think so far? I mean, I have to give them credit. I think I put my whole life out there. These girls are putting their whole life out there. It's wild. It's wild. So you're raising the Mormon church. You're 19, you're expelled from Brigham Young for getting pregnant. What is your relationship with the church now? Yeah, so I want to be really clear. I wasn't expelled for bringing pregnant. I was definitely put on a suspension. Oh, the suspension. And then I chose not to go back. And in the past, I've been kind of, oh, I didn't go back because I was pregnant or I got kicked out and I want to be really clear. I did not specifically say you are pregnant out of wedlock. You can't be here. But it was obviously not going to work for me after that happened. But to be fair to the to be why you, I was suspended and chose not to work my way back in. So my relationship with the church is like, I feel like with all my neighbors just on my street, I know them. They live by me. I hope the best for them. But I don't really talk to them every day. I have eight acres at my house. So I see my neighbors when I drive down the street. And that's how I'd like to feel about the church. If it works for somebody else, great. The church wasn't awful to me. I know a lot of other people have a lot of serious trauma from their experience in the Mormon church. I just realized it wasn't for me and left. I don't know. I have this very complicated feeling of I feel for people who've really struggled with their leaving the church or their family as affiliation with the church. I didn't have that. But I can see where it works for some people and where it has not worked for others. I also have a lot of family who still go. So I try really hard to be not even neutral, but like positive to neutral about it for their sake. But you must also hear from young women who are still in the church, maybe in similar situations or feel similarly alienated. There's this moment, this season, where it's very clear that your mother still feels a lot of the same feelings from 20 years ago to this day. And I wonder what you say when young women reach out to you now who are still in the church. Yeah. So it's a beautiful thing for me that sharing parts of my life resonates with people. And they do tell me their stories. And they want to talk to me about it. And I think it's something that I just thought this is happening to me. It's just my family feels this way. And my family's connection to the church and its culture feels this way. And when I left the church, so many people that were still in the church kept saying, it's not the church brown one. It's people who go to church that had that opinion. And I think that really messed me up because my experience was the church did not agree with me being pregnant or me being a single mom or some of my LGBTQ friends relationships. And I really got this like kind of twisted sense of no, that's a culture or that's like somebody's interpretation. No, it's not the church promotes. Let's be clear. It is. And I think even this year as I've gone through it and talked to people, I've realized another layer of how I have a tendency to just be like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's okay, I can handle it. And if I can handle it, it wasn't that bad. No, it was pretty bad. It's still pretty bad to this day with some of my family members. And that's hard to admit, but it's truthful. And that's okay to be truthful, even if it's hard. So you've been advocating for trans kids and trans teens. You've talked about how you and your fellow housewives are free to get gender affirming care. And so trans teens should be able to get it as well. There was a moment where you were talking about that your daughter came and said, she needed this care. You'd want her to have whatever was the best care that whether it's gender affirming care or any health care. Yeah. And there's a way in which it really did feel resonant with the conversations you were having with your mother this season and feeling like maybe you didn't get the care and support you needed when you were young and I wonder if you feel that connection between how isolated you felt when you were younger? Yeah. I think I talk a lot about gender affirming care as a place where somebody might feel comfortable with that. But for me, I'd really much rather call it just care. Whatever care your friend, child, partner, neighbor needs, they should have is really how I feel about it full stop. And I think like I was saying earlier, I've realized there are big gaps in my life where I was not getting what I probably needed. And I don't know that that's anybody's fault necessarily. I think my mom had no experience with that. I think the way she was raised and the church that she's really a part of just don't function in a way that she knew how to give it to me didn't even know I needed it maybe. But I think we always have a tendency to kind of do what our parents did or go the exact opposite way. Nobody kind of has a great area of with parenting, right? So absolutely, I have set out to be very different with my daughter and that comes with its own very different sets of pluses and minuses. The way I'm parenting isn't perfect. But openness and transparency is a big part of it for me. And course correcting. I think one of the first things I would tell my daughter always is if I'm wrong, yeah, I'm happy to admit that. I wanted to model for her that being wrong is okay. That changing your opinion is actually an amazing thing, not a bad thing, that knowing more and thinking differently is great. Is there any party that that ever feels like, you know what, there needs to be more people like me in the Mormon church. There need more people that are seeking this kind of openness and trying to bring other points of view into your own life, your religious life, what have you, that people should stay and try to, as you said, the people make the culture of the church and be part of that culture. You know, I don't know what the Mormon church needs me anymore specifically. I don't think they want me and I don't think they need me. I give them far. There's a lot of things. There's a lot of things. But I'm gonna lump them together right next to me. But I do have this conversation with my husband a lot about Utah. My husband works in New York. So many of our friends are on the East Coast. A lot of my businesses in LA or in New York. And we have this conversation a lot about why I want to be in Utah. We don't really have family that's close by. We just like to ski and that was kind of a ski home that's evolved over time. But I think my voice is needed in Utah if I can, not just like pop myself on the back, but I think we do need people who are willing to say, I feel differently. And here's why or I've had a different experience. And here's what it felt like. I don't know if they need me in sacrament meeting, saying those things, but they might need me in Salt Lake, saying it. They might need you in Salt Lake. All right, that's good. So you had never seen an episode of Real Housewives of Salt Lake before joining the show. Is that right? I'd seen clips on Instagram. And I knew some of the ladies and I'd watched all the other housewives, but I had not specifically seen Salt Lake. No. What was happening in your life that you thought, I want this? This is the next step for me. Yeah, I am an interesting phase. When I start my first season, my daughter was done with school. She was just graduating from high school. And she had not gone back to traditional schooling after COVID. She'd stayed doing like her own program through homeschooling. And so she was really kind of like ready to leave the nest. We're still working on that, but she's supposedly ready to leave the nest. My husband still really works and has involved in what he's doing. And I felt like for the first time in my adult life, maybe I had time and resources to do something that was just for me. I did not realize how much I was going to overlap with my daughter. My husband when I said yes. Well, yeah, I mean, look, there's a lot of people who have a moment where their kids are leaving the home. And some of them say they take up cooking. You know, they they decide to paint or draw a new hobby. You decided I want to. I really turned up the heat. I didn't just learn how to cook. I like got in the pot. Right. And there are moments when you're talking to your husband, Todd, on the show where, you know, he's saying, why are you going to go spend time with people that you're in a fight with or that aren't being honest? But on some level, what do you feel? What do you feel like you're saying? Like, why are you doing this show? Yeah, Todd really has a hard time with the show as a show. Yeah. See, Todd. Yeah, Todd's always kind of confused by the parameters of how the show works, I think. But also, it does make sense in terms of our dynamic, because I really did do this show to be friends with these women. I did do this show. I say to everybody, it's been really interesting getting to know most of the women on the show and really interesting getting to know myself. Literally seeing yourself in a different way, watching yourself back, watching your relationships back, seeing what they look like, maybe seeing a pattern I didn't know that I had or that I always did until you literally see it on camera, has been eye opening to say the least. I really thought, I'm going to be friends with these women. We're going to have fun. My mouth can be real slick, so watch out. Don't upset me. But I have less made friends than I've learned to make friends with myself first. OK. I've had really except who I am and where my flaws are. And then, I think I can be friends with the women after that. We're getting there. All right. I want to talk about that piece. I want to say on you, because that's interesting. So what are the patterns? Like, what is a pattern that you saw? I said, oh, I didn't understand that about myself. Yeah. I would have said before doing the show that I was a very loyal person. I would have said that that's something that people really valued in their friendships with me. And as I watch on the show, I think because I was new, it's very, I'm so, I have a lot of respect for the women who built the show and what they did, not knowing what they were doing and building an audience. But to come into an established group and an established group on camera is a really tricky kind of group to break into. So it's hard to not have loyalty from them, but to be expected to show it and who am I loyal to and how science can be killer be killed for sure. You know, when we sit down for a group event, but I didn't realize how quick I am to be like, nope, that's not what was said. This is what was said. You know, I end up kind of spilling the secrets all the time. And it took people kind of saying, I don't like that about you. As I watch the show, I don't like how often you, it seems like you run and tell, you know, there's not a lot of nobility and reality TV. And so me kind of being like, no, let's just all be on an open playing field. You said this, let's have some accountability for it. Really? That's how it felt to me in the moment. And watching it back, I'm like, no, I'm kind of a snitch. Actually, that isn't so fun. I don't love that about me. There's a better way to, you know, there was such an episode a couple weeks ago where somebody told me something and I was uncomfortable with what they told me. And thinking about it now, the best way to handle that would have been like, this makes me uncomfortable. You should talk to someone so yourself. I don't want to be part of this conversation. Instead, I kind of like did my little joke as a, you know, defense mechanism and I'm like, he, he, that's awkward. I was just going to kill you for saying that. And then I went home and felt so bad. I called that person and said, this is what's being said about you. Heads up. And that was a really bad way to handle that. In the moment, in the moment, I thought it was the right thing to do. We're friends. This is a dark thing that's being said about you. Heads up. But in true housewives form when we all sat down together for a lunch, it came up. Bronwyn said this to me that you said to her and I was like, wow, I don't know if I liked the way that that looks. It looks like I was loyal to no one when I was trying to be friends with everyone. But you're also on camera for every one of these conversations. So yes, sure. You can call and tell someone you heard something. Yeah. But they will learn about it because it is on camera. So is it actually disloyalty or is it a kind of, are you aware in the moment that you're performing? I'm trying to figure out for myself. Like I said, I think everybody kind of feels so like, what is Todd doing? How does he not know how the show works? I don't know how the show works sometimes either. I really am trying to be friends with Whitney and I really am trying to be friends with Meredith. And Whitney was telling me something about her experience with Meredith on a plane that she really wanted to confide in me. And then I thought, damn, my friend Meredith is really going to hate that we had this conversation and it's going to surprise her. But friendship is different than TV friendship, right? It is. Right. My observation of you in the plane in Brullio is that you came away okay. You seem to try to suss out what happened to defend Meredith, but ultimately conclude that there was more truth to what the others were saying about it. I think I felt like I had a lot of questions about how it could have happened the way everyone said without there being some kind of video photo, law enforcement, you know, confusing, you know, confusing. Yeah. Banned from American Airlines, you know. I didn't know about it. Like if somebody, I like that was so. I let's talk about this actually. I'm actually interested in this because I'm now I'm watching this and and the claim seems to be that Meredith loudly went on a tirade. Perhaps for as long as two hours drunkenly yelling about Brittany on a commercial flight in which there were other passengers and doesn't seem any flight attendant said anything. There doesn't seem to have been any repercussions. I mean, we've traveled if somebody was berating a passenger to the point where there would have been some kind of intervention. So at the very least, something's exaggerated, right? That's what I felt like when I first sat down with them. I was like, there's no way this happened. There's no way this happened. And everyone has a pretty similar story other than Lisa Meredith of what happened. And all I can say, I wasn't on the plane. I don't know. I'll never know. Almost like an audience. I know. I can't. I also don't know. I've talked to all of them. And I think all I can say in this is Meredith doesn't think she did anything wrong. And that's fair. She can feel that way. She has to in a group of friends be able to hear many of her friends saying, you made us uncomfortable. You made so and so feel scared. You made someone so cry. This person felt like you were out of control. And at least be able to say, OK, I went further than I thought. Or I went too far for you. I don't know. I'm picky about apologies. I like them to be actual apologies, not dancing around, you know, over and angular. But to not have anything to be sorry for when everyone feels so wronged, I don't know. This is a big mystery for me. And I'm on the show. So this is where I'm sort of, this is where I can't understand that when the real ends in the show begins, because there is something that seems, something strange that seems to be happening, which is about the power dynamics in the show, which is there was a way in which Lisa and Meredith were kind of like the alphas of the show. And then they're on this plane. And then they get off this plane and all of a sudden Heather and Brittany and Mary are saying, this was a big deal. And now we're going to do a party for Brittany to make her feel better. And on some level, it's making a moment of something none of us will be able to see, but something that does put Lisa and Meredith on their heels. I could see that. I think for me, something I'm learning about reality TV is, I've been a little defensive of myself and my family. I keep feeling like, since the cameras have been here, I happened to have had a very difficult two years. Lots of health problems in my family. And some marital challenges that the spotlight magnifies and all these kind of things. But I also, if I'm being totally honest, think any time cameras came to my house, you're going to see the same basic human concepts. For me, it's this idea of image and intimacy. What do I share versus how do I want it to look like what I've shared? Connection versus control. Do I want to connect with these women? Do I want to control my dynamic with them? I also think for me, a big part of it is self preservation versus self revelation. You can't be friends with somebody if you don't reveal who you are and be vulnerable with them. It is being vulnerable on how so I was maybe like the worst thing you could do is come in and tell these women where all your weak spots are, right? So I think you're always going to see that. And I think each of us on the show handles each of those, you know, push pulls differently. Some of us show up with a prettier exterior and a more controlled version of ourselves on camera and some of us are really ourselves. And I think for me, when I watch the season's episodes back, I didn't feel this way while we are filming, but there does feel like this dynamic shift, maybe within the group of people who are willing to share, people who are willing to admit when they're wrong, people who want to hear what other people are saying, and some friends in the group who maybe don't want to be told when they've hurt you or when they're wrong or when you differ from them. So I don't know if it's a power dynamic in terms of standing on the show, just a different type of relating in a friendship. I always am really trying to be friends with these women. I see you smirking and we like to not share about that. I really do want to be friends with them. So I always look at it from the lens of, you know, Lisa and I've had a hard time. We have since I've been on the show, you know, Lisa says we were acquaintances before the show. I thought we were friends. Whatever that is, it's different now than it used to be for sure. And we've had a hard time and I'm as much to blame for that. I think as she is, if I'm, you know, being totally fair and taking, you know, my own culpability and things, but I think part of it is for me, the friendship is more important. And maybe if I can speak for Lisa, she wouldn't want me to, but I think maybe the show is more important for Lisa. So she wants to be right on camera. She wants the audience to feel like what she did and how she handled me was correct. Whereas I don't really care about the audience, things about her versus me. I'd like it to be good between us or at least neutral, which I think you see me try this season. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a good thing to have a good time. But there also is that idea in the back of your mind that there are cameras there and someone's going to watch us at some point like how much of a punk do I want to look like? Like at some point, you just stand up for yourself. Right. But the end also part of this is saying what you want the cameras to see is to see that you don't care about the cameras and really just care about the friendship. So in fact, I'm caring about the cameras, right? Of course. It's, yeah, it's very tricky. We're going to take a quick break and we will be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. Love It or Leave It is brought to you by Mint Mobile. You know, you don't have to let big wireless in your overprice phone bill suck the joy out of the holiday this year because right now all of Mint Mobile's unlimited plans are 50% off. You can get three six or 12 months of unlimited premium wireless for 15 bucks a month. 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When your expensive wireless present into a huge wireless savings future by switching to Mint, shop Mint on limited plans at MintMobile.com slash love it. That's MintMobile.com slash love it. Limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan required, which is a $15 a month equivalent taxes and fees extra initial plan term only over 35 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required availability speed and coverage varies. See MintMobile.com. And we're back. So when you say that there are people that are trying to control their image, you're talking about Lisa? She would be one of the offenders of that, I would say, yeah, sorry. No, no, I'm just curious. Because I have to say, like, it's hard to even track what's happening between the two of you. And it does seem that, like, maybe there's a conflict that wasn't on camera that is now playing out without it being spoken about. Is that possible? Yeah, I think for me, I don't think anything that's happened on camera is on the phone. On true. You see what I say, you see how I act, you see a lot of my genuine reactions. If I've said, if it's happening and cameras are filming, they can have it. So I don't keep anything off of it. I think for me, it was the idea in my first season that Lisa was willing to say things about my family that I don't think she would have wanted said about her family on camera. And so I kept feeling like, okay, well, if we're not friends, it's none of your business what happens in my family. And if we are friends and you wouldn't put that on camera, why should I have to put it on camera? Like, there is a, I don't ever know if we are show friends or real friends. I think maybe right now or neither. Right. A few weeks ago, you and Whitney had a conversation about open marriages. Yeah. It's a first-in-house wife's history. Did you talk about talking about that before cameras were rolling or did it just happen? It just happened. Another thing I've learned since being on reality TV is listening is key. You got to listen. You have to listen. I think it less would benefit me more when I started hearing, you know, all this drama with the plane was so crazy. We need to, you know, film some things and get everybody caught up. The drama I had on the plane was that I saw this tweet about my husband. I had no idea what happened or didn't happen with Meredith and Brittany. So I went into filming those lunches and meetups thinking they all knew what I knew about the tweet about my husband. I assumed the drama from the plane was them all coming to me. Is your husband cheating? What's going on with the two of you? Lisa just said this on the boat and now there's this tweet on the way home. That was my experience on my flight home. And if I had just sat there and let them talk first, both Mary and Whitney, I would have not shared quite so much, right? I really thought I'm going to sit down. They're going to come at me about this. I just need to be open. How I feel? I'm embarrassed. I'm hurt. We got to figure this out. And they were like, what are you talking about? Are you embarrassed and hurt about Meredith and Brittany? You brought it up. I brought it up both times. Wow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For both Whitney and Mary were like, what? Neither of them had seen the tweet. Neither of them were so. I was so in my own experience and they were so in their own experience that we had no idea what the other was going to say. Wow. And that conversation happens. Do you then call Todd and say, hey, FYI, this thing just came up. I'm sure going to be put like what happens after that is on camera. Yeah. Todd and I had already had kind of a tough discussion about it. I talked to Todd before I talked to the women, of course, because I came home and saw it and he was at the house and it had not gone well. I was upset and exhausted and, you know, he hadn't even really wanted me going on the trip in the first place. So we started at a pretty bad spot and escalated from there. And so Todd left early for a business trip. So he and I were checking like a little, I mean, maybe the first time ever that I've just not responded to as tax or calls in our entirety of our relationship. So I spoke to both Mary and Whitney and multiple days went by before I told Todd that that had happened on camera. Usually I debrief with Todd about everything I film. But that was something I filmed kind of in my own little lane without Todd. You've had some serious conversations with your mother this season with Todd this season. What does that do? Like what does knowing it's going to be films? How does it change? How you talk to each other? So the amazing thing about both my mom and Todd and frankly, my daughter Gwen is that they really do not remember or care that the cameras are there. That's three of them are 100% themselves always. And of the three of them, everyone to talk to me before cameras come about where things are going. In fact, that one conversation my mom and I had about my pregnancy and that experience that I had no idea that's what she was going to talk to me about. We were, I was like folding up an inflatable costume and I thought we were going to talk about my dad, which was this huge thing that was happening at our house was my dad's care for his Alzheimer's and dementia. And the fact that it took that turn, I think you kind of see me being like, are we doing this or you know, whatever. We were already in it and everyone was there. And I've been really clear that we will do it if it's happening and it is something that happens when my mom moved in with me. This is something we have just danced around for almost 20 years in our relationship. And so is there some way in which the fact that you will be filming it because you're filming something, what we should have something to film. We're going to record something. There should be drama and something of interest taking place between us. Is the fact that there is a camera there, make the conversation deeper? Does it allow you to say things you otherwise wouldn't say? How does it change? It has to change something. Yeah, I don't think that I think, oh, I need to have something like salacious and compelling to say when I turn the cameras on. I guess I think really highly of myself because I just always think they're going to be interested in what I'm going to say. That's good. That's a good way to be on the show. I'm like, what am I going to say to this? I'm just, you're interested. Of course, they're a camera. I just figured the cameras are on that they're going to catch me doing something stupid or funny or weirdly dressed. And true. That's been so cutting if they don't like it and play somebody else's. But once the camera's around, like, so in that moment with my mom, when she started talking to me about how I was raising my daughter, I was really offended that she would dare bring that up. And then I kind of felt like you become friends with the production crew and the camera crew and the audio guys and everybody involved in the production. And I was like, I can't believe she's doing this in front of everybody. And I can't believe she's saying this in front of everybody. And I had that moment and then I was like, but we are doing it. So I must will just say what I need to say to. And I think you kind of see it, especially in that conversation that I ease into it. I kind of am like, making jokes. And I'm like, all right, you don't really mean that. And it was a long time ago. And I kind of like, I'm trying to buffer it. And then I'm like, well, actually, the way you parented me work, let's actually have this conversation. We're going to have this conversation. Okay. And I don't know if that's a green flag or red flag about me. I'm like, no, no, no, okay, let's do it. You know what I'm saying? It does change because there is an audience immediately. It's not like you film in a, I mean, even in here with you, there's an audience in here. You know what I mean? There's people in here. Yeah. So I mean, I already know I'm a neurotic, anxious person. I already know somebody is listening to what I'm saying. Let alone when it goes out into the world. So yeah, having the camera crew there, having the production team, having a show runner or producer there, I'm like, what are they thinking about this? Okay. I can't think about that. This is a conversation I have waited 16, 17 years to have with my mom. If she's willing to have it with me, cameras are not. Let's do it. There are moments in the first season you were filmed where Todd is pretty harsh and it does seem like he took feedback from that, that from the reaction to the public to how he spoke to you, he wanted to change how he spoke to you. But clearly that wasn't something that could be on his mind when he was having those conversations the first time. You have this conversation with your mother and it's rare, I think, to see someone say what is not considered the therapy correct way of talking about this. She still feels that it was hard for her to quote, hide your pregnancy and that was still hard for her without her saying, but that was the wrong thing to do and I love you and I shouldn't have, there's none of that. She's not at that point. Does she see the feedback to that? Is she thinking about the cameras or I guess you're saying she doesn't? So neither Todd or my mom thinks about the cameras, I mean to their detriment, poor both of them, honestly, you know what I mean? I even have a line of like, oh, I would never say that on camera. I think everyone has like, oh, I never do that on camera. And I think I show everything, but it's been really difficult for both of them. Neither of them are like super social media savvy, but we are not impervious to other people's feelings about us and both of them have taken a significant amount of backlash for their interactions with me. And I don't know that that's totally fair. One because I love both of them and so I'm going to feel for them. Even if I'm having a difficult moment with them, I don't want anybody else to feel it. They're my mom. That's my husband. I can argue with them. I don't need the public arguing with them. I don't want anybody making fun of them. And also I don't know that it's wrong to express your real feelings. When you say there's no therapy speak in there, no, neither Todd nor my mom hand holds me, babies me, any of those things. And for the most part, I benefit from that. I think a lot of people benefit from having somebody in their life who will tell it to you, no holds barred. I could use a little more softness from both of them, but are they villains because they're willing to be real about how they feel? I don't know. That's an interesting thing for me to think about. My experience with Todd and my mom both is that both of them are, I think, too hard on me and feel differently than I do about a lot of things. When it's good, that's a superpower for me with them. When Todd and I are in a good place, I think we're a great couple because we see everything differently. He pushes me to feel differently. I push him to think of different things. When it's bad, it's really hard. So you see those really hard moments and I don't know that that's fair to judge Todd or our relationship just on those hard moments. It's also not unfair to judge him on the things he doesn't says. It's really tricky. It's really tricky to watch a show and feel like you have a real understanding of who somebody is. Yeah. Well, with your mom, I actually, it's refreshing that this is not somebody who has already kind of absorbed so much social media and therapy speak that she feels, I continue to be hurt by the fact that you being pregnant was miserable for me. That's what she feels. I think better to have it expressed than forget it's not the feeling. But then there's the fact that that's still how she feels and how surely you would like to figure out how to work with her, talk to her, get to a place where she doesn't still feel that way. I don't know. I am at a real place of accepting my mom. I'm really at a place of accepting my mom. I know who my mom is. This was maybe the most honest she's ever been with me about it. I think before I assumed she was embarrassed to church, I assumed that she thought my parents weren't good parents. And that's why I did all these things that were naughty or I should have known better than or that she wanted something for me that I didn't achieve. And I thought it came from this place of like a social stigma. For her to say, it was so hard for me is the first time that I've heard how she internalized it versus what it looked like to maybe like the church ladies that she was friends with. And I can deal with that. For years, thinking my mom was just like embarrassed to go to church and what other people might think of me, I didn't know how we had a close relationship if she cared more what other people thought of me than what was happening between her and I. So I know it was harsh for her to say that, but it was harsh in this way of like, okay, there it is. That's how you feel. And we can move from here finally. I don't know that I even need my mom to say it wasn't hard for her. If it was hard for her, it was hard for her. Right. I think all of your feelings are valid and real. I don't think you always have to believe every thought you have and I don't think you have to act on every thought you have. But if that's how you feel, it's how you feel. And she should be able to say that to me. And I should be able to take it. Hold on one second. We will be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It Or Leave It coming up. Love It Or Leave It is brought to you by Bombas this time of year at sensory overload everywhere, but one feeling we're still chasing the cozy feeling. And Bombas has the sock slippers and basically everything to get you there. There's something weirdly therapeutic about fresh socks. And the sock scientist of Bombas have found a way to channel that energy into everything from slippers with sinking cushioning to the perfect fitting ankle sock. And that feeling, it doesn't stop after one where it just keeps going. They've got answers for all your gifting questions. What do you get your son's new marathon training girlfriend? 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Right now as you're hearing this of moving the last of my non-Bombas socks into the trash and replacing them with Bombas socks, thereby completing my full Bombas sock drawer. And I recommend it. They're super comfortable, soft. They're really well made and long lasting. I just highly recommend them. You know, they also help people. But again, not on my mind. All right. That's how good the socks are. I'm glad they help people. I wouldn't want them to stop. I wouldn't get them even if they didn't. Head on over to Bombas.com slash love it. Use code love it for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash love it. Code love it at checkout. All right. Brahmin, you made this choice at this moment of transition in your life to go on a show where the relationships always have an asterisks because they're on camera, right? Where you're subject to withering public scrutiny. And you're doing it at time when your daughter who you're seemed to be so close with and have a great relationship with is leaving. And the two figures in your life are deeply ambivalent about you being on television. And you have like, I think, as you said, they're both really hard on you. And so watching you, it's the world is hard on you, the other women are hard on you, the people on the show are hard on you. And I wonder if you feel that like we watch you in two seasons. It doesn't feel like there are a lot of people have your back. Yeah. And you know, that's something that I've learned about myself watching this too. I think that I told my husband after the first season, I said, this is what I was worried about. I feel like nobody's ever totally knew me and understood me and loved me. Just full stop. I feel like there's this like wake in my history of like, you know, my mom, you tell my mom joking about it. I was an oops baby. We've been joking about that since I was a little girl. You know what I mean? That's tough. That they'd already had two girls and a boy and they were done. And my mom actually goes further and says like she thought it was a tumor in her stomach. And she was like a tumor would have been easier. I mean, like that's something that like it's family lore since I was a little girl. That's, you know, part of like the makeup of who my personality and who I am. And, you know, to not feel like I fit in in high school, I was kind of a geeky awkward weird kind of kid. And I love it now, but that's hard in high school, you know, to have a pregnancy and have somebody say I'm not interested in being part of it and their family want to hide it. And, you know, you still see the fallout of that years. I mean, decades later with Gwen's grandparents last season, I said to Todd after the last season, like I just assumed that the more someone knows about me, the less they're going to like me. Like that's just like how I feel about myself and watching myself back. I do see that happening, but I also see what I feed into how that happens. I allow this negativity and craziness in my life. And I, like you said, I put myself on a show when my daughter was leaving and I was very vulnerable and was like, who wants to look at the two hardest relationships in my life? Well, I don't have much else going on. I'm like, I am a massacast. And that's my choice. And I do, I don't want to sound like a Todd and muzzle apologist. I do love them, but I think that change starts with you. And so when I watch the episodes, I feel like I need to stand up for myself. I need to say that's not okay. Or you can't say that to me anymore or you're entitled to feel that way, but it doesn't change how I feel about things. I had not to be like, I turned 40 this year in my whole life changed, but I turned 40 this year in my whole life change. I do, like I do my dad passed. I did the second season of this show. I don't feel a ton of support. Oh, it was from the women, none from muzzle and Todd sometimes on camera. I love them, but God help them. And then my dad passed right after we stopped filming. And I turned 40 and I just was like, I don't know, I didn't like come on here to burn everything to the ground, but maybe I need to burn everything to the ground. Maybe I need to show up differently for myself before I expect other people to show up differently for me. It's fine. I didn't put the connection to turning 40, man. What is it? People think that you turned 40 and then do the middle-life crisis. It hits at 39. It hits when the 40s coming. People need to be warned about this. Yes. Because you think, oh, I'm not 40 yet. I'm not. Where were you last year? I was on the other end of my crisis from when I turned 40. Yes. I've said this about myself, which is there's a curve for liking me. Okay. And you start up here and you think, wow, what a charming, interesting person. Yeah. Then it's like, oh my God. Okay. Right? But, but. And I think maybe this is something that's true of both of us. You slowly win him back. Sure. You know what I mean? And then you end up back here maybe even higher than when you started. I would love that. I would love that for myself. I think that's what, I think that's your trajectory on the show. I do. I genuinely do. Okay. I feel so much better about things. I think, I honestly think that's my view of you to be honest. I'm thinking about it in real time. I'm just going to say that your public is here. I think it's fine. Okay. I liked you and then I hated you, but we might be coming back around. Well, no, I was like, you came on. You were interesting. You were confident out of the gate, which is hard to do. You were funny and smart. And I remember watching you when you first showed up and thinking, they thought they could kind of batch you around a little, but you're too smart for that. That's cool. And then I did see the trajectory of the kind of like turning on people, right? But now here you are. I was so excited to see you because you're one of my favorite people to see on the show. So I think, and I think that's what a lot of people are feeling. But I think it's a real thing. I think a lot. I don't know. I don't want to like extrapolate too much, but I think a lot about like victims and like sympathetic victims and like who we feel sorry for and who we don't feel sorry for. Like there's a lot of news stories that I'm always interested like where the trajectory of that information goes. The more we know about somebody and what actually happened between that divorce or that whatever, right? And it's interesting who is sympathetic and who is not and who we feel for a root for, right? And I feel like sometimes with me, not to like feel sorry for myself, but the way that my upbringing and my trauma and like some of the darker parts of my psyche are is that I like almost want you not to like me. I'm like, here's all the bad things about me. Just like eat them, take them to adjust them, like that's what and then you can leave if you want. But if you stay, you at least you know what you're staying with. And that's a weird way to handle people. Yeah. I didn't even know that I did that until I was literally watching myself be like, I mean, I saw myself in the first season I was on there being like, I'm not going to keep a secret for anybody. If you said something crazy, I don't care if I like you or if I don't like you, I'm it's crazy. Like a defense. That's a weird thing to do. Like that's, it's weird. I think it's honest. Not all honesty is necessary. No, thank you. You know what I mean? Well, sometimes the meanest things you'll ever say is like I'm just being honest. Yeah. When somebody says I'm just blunt or I'm just telling you the truth, watch out. That's coming next is probably unnecessary. Yeah. To be fair. That's true. Okay. I expect that maybe somebody's not going to like me. And so it's just easier if I give you a reason for you not to like me. And then it's like, well, I knew you weren't going to anyway. And it went exactly the way that I thought. And it wasn't like I really cared. And I really tried. And I think some people are effortless and cool and just like wake up that way. Easy, breezy, beautiful, whatever. Those people. I am not that person. I try really hard. I'm super shalant. You know, like really. Yeah. Right. I try so hard and it doesn't work. It is devastating for me. So I think sometimes it's easier to just be like, I wasn't going to try anyway. It doesn't matter to me. We were never going to be tight friends me and you. And that's something I had to see myself doing. Like you know it. And then sometimes you know it. Yeah. You have to see it. Yeah. Has it been gratifying though to also feel like you're being embraced by people that are watching that like do you feel seen in the way you're hoping to be seen? I think that there are parts of my story that really resonate with people and that is one of the most beautiful things I think you can do is connect with somebody on a shared experience or like on an empathy level, not a sympathizing kind of a situation. I also think it's really freeing for somebody as like Virgo and Narotic and Control freak as me to be like, there are some people who no matter what I do are going to hate my guts. They just do. I'm a stand in for somebody in their life. They can't stand or can't speak to or can't fix it with or they just don't like my upper lip. Somebody told me I have a punchable upper lip and a DM. Oh, I didn't do it. You know what I mean? And I was like, well, it's not something I'm planning to change. So you're just going to always hate like it's interesting to know that there are some people who I could never do any wrong and some people who I could never do any right. Like if you told me that before I did the show, I'd have been like, I don't think I could handle that. I couldn't. And I've had to learn how to. It's very freeing to realize that how other people feel about me. I know everybody says this. It's really none of my business. And it sometimes has nothing to do with me. Well, it almost always has nothing to do with you. You're about to record the reunion, right? Yeah. And so going into that reunion, who do you right now feel like is like in your corner, who do you feel like you need to resolve things with? Who are you think is you're never going to be friends with? Yeah. I think I would say Mary Whitney Angie in that order are who I'm close with. I speak to Mary quite a bit. And it is me reaching out. I love Mary. I love confiding in Mary. I love when Mary kind of sets me straight when I'm spiraling out of control. Mary is, Mary might be the softer Todd in my life at this point. Okay. I mean, interesting. And Todd and Mary actually really get along and really respect each other, which I appreciate and love. Whitney and I have spent a lot of time together this season. And there's more episodes to come. I know what we filmed and how it all kind of pans out. But I respect most of what Whitney does. And I respect that when I don't respect what she's done that she can handle that. When she and I disagree, she can handle that we are friends, but we disagree. Not everybody can handle that. I like Angie. I don't ever want to fight with Angie. Angie's got a slick her mouth and even I do. Angie and I should never come to blows because it will be World War III between the two of us. But Angie's also busy. And so I just see and talk to her less than Mary and Whitney. I feel like I'm in a good place with Heather. I'm in a decent place with Brittany. I think Meredith and I were really bonding over certain things this season. And it really was meaningful to me. And I think in maybe future episodes, you'll see me trying to figure out if Meredith and I are as close as I think we are. And if we are, can that new closeness sustain some criticism I have for her? And so we'll see how that goes with the reunion. We haven't seen all those episodes yet. We will before we film the reunion. And I kind of could see it going either way between Meredith and I. I'm hopeful for positive always. And then on the Lisa front, there's a there's a mirror to what you're talking about, which is I feel like people have seen you being vulnerable. And I think with Lisa, it seems like that's not happening, that there's sort of a wall up that's maybe it's bothering you, maybe it's bothering everybody. But do you hope to resolve that? Do you believe that you were wrong to think it was a friendship? Like what, what are you learning as you film this season about what it is like to think your friends with somebody and then discover it wasn't what you thought? Yeah. I think at the beginning of the season, you see kind of the fallout of our reunion from last year. I was very hurt that she said we were never friends. I was very hurt that she seemed to want to embarrass me and like do this whole thing at the reunion that felt very mean spirited and like digging and whatever else into my life and kind of exaggerating things to make not only are you not my friend, but you were never good enough to be my friend. And I'm not going to treat you even like subhuman at this point. And you know, I really don't respect how I showed up at the beginning of filming. I came in and was kind of like, okay, well, we're not friends. And this is what we do as enemies. I'm going to do it right back to you. And it didn't feel good. It didn't feel good as we were filming it. And I know so many people have messaged me and were like, good for you standing up to her about the lawsuits or you look so funny, whatever. That was all honestly just like hate filled for me to get that mad at her to feel that confident while she is yelling your gout dicks. I don't know if I can say that on here or not. You do it every morning. You said I'm probably going to say anything. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Then I can say anything. And for me to kind of respond, you know it had gone really far between the two of us. For me to be like, I don't care. I say what you want to say. This is, you know, whatever. That's not how I want to be. I want it to hurt when a friend hurts my feelings because I want us to be friends. It should hurt that she was saying those things to me. And it should have hurt her that I went for her too. And I think after I watched that back, I was like, damn, things were really bad between the two of us. I was willing to do something and be something I don't want to be. I'm not going to say she dragged it out of me. And I showed up and chose to do all of those things and say all of those things myself. But it's not who I want to be. And so you see me have this moment of a truce with her. And I've really tried to stick to that. I don't speak about her husband. I don't speak about her kids. I don't bring up anything I hear, negative, positive, neutral, nothing. If she says something funny and I'm in the room, I will laugh. If she's not speaking to me, I don't make eye contact with her. You're very self-conscious. But you're very thoughtful about what it is to be on this show. And I wonder if... I had a lot of therapy before I was on the show. And I think my therapist probably wished, okay, so my therapist divorced me. I'd had the same therapist for like 10 years. And she was like, it is time to go. You need to be with someone else. Like this is now becoming its own issue that you won't talk to somebody else. Like we shouldn't be talking for 10 years. And I was like, but I love you. And she was like, that's the problem. You should talk to someone new. Broken up with by your therapist. That's not how it is. If I go to someone else, I have to explain all these things that you know about. I know. You got to go through all the old stuff. And you know what she said to me? She said, actually, you don't. If you and I have dealt with it, you don't need to tell them all of those things. You can just meet them where you are now. And I was like, but they would need to know to understand me. And she was like, then you and I haven't done as much work as you think we have. And I'm not the person for you. She did break up with me. And I sometimes wonder... Left you no way in. Just cut off every excuse. She was done. She had a mission. She changed my number. She moved. She changed her middle name. She was born I and I love her. And I miss her. And I talk about her all the time. And sometimes I'm like, I wonder if she's just like scrolling Instagram on a Sunday and sees a clip of the show. And it's like, damn it, Bronwyn. We talked about it. We worked on this. Seven years ago. So it's interesting to know better. And then not always show up as that better version of yourself. Well, that's not the thing. We all often we all know better. Of course, we know better. But it's so hard to show up as the better person we know. Who wants to be the bigger person? It's exhausting. Sometimes you want to get in the mind. No. Do you think the other housewives on your season have a level of reflection about it like this or do you think part of like, is that a weakness for you? Because it seems like to me being oblivious is a strength. There are times when people say, you know, I've read commentary that like, at least as not somebody I'd want to be friends with in person, but I love her on the show. And then I feel like the same kind of behavior from me is really heavily criticized. And I'm like, damn, what would it feel like to be so delusional and just like be lauded for it? Like, queen delusional behavior. And I'm not that I'm saying she is, but that's, you know, commentary I read or whatever. I think everybody has different reasons for doing the show. I really wanted to be friends with these women. I really wanted to like try something new for myself, see what happened. I really, really wanted to be on drag race as a guest judge. I did housewives to do that. Other people want to show their businesses, other people want to make money. So I think everybody shows up as the version of what they want. So you know, love me or hate me. I really want friendships. And so for me, you're seeing me in real time trying to figure out what a friendship with each of them individually looks like and as a whole. And what the layer of cameras on top too. It's wild. Hold on one sec. We will be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of love at our leave it coming up. Love at our leave it is brought to you by Aura Frames. Maybe you can relate to this. Maybe you say this year is going to be different. You can plan ahead. You can think about a perfect gift. And then all of a sudden it's last minute and you're what you're shoving cash into and envelope. You're buying a gift card this year. You can skip the panic and give an aura frame. Why is it so hard to find a personal gift for the people you're closest to? Well, now you don't have to worry so much about it because you can get a frame from Aura. And then you can give them the pictures they would love to see on their digital picture frame. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. So there's no gift wrapping necessary. You can even pre-load photos before a chips and keep adding from anywhere. Any time upload unlimited photos and video to your frame for free. Just download the Aura app and connect to Wi-Fi. It only takes two minutes to set up a frame using the Aura app. The app allows you to share photos and videos effortlessly at any time straight from your phone. If you want to personalize your gift, you can add a message before it arrives. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling, Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Love It at Checkout. That's AURAFrames.com promo code Love It. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holiday. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout terms and conditions apply. Okay. Often does politics come up. It's in the news while you're recording. There's a lot happening in the world. Do you talk about it while you're filming? They don't use it. Do you know that it's not going to be something they're going to use? There are a few times it's come up and I know that they're not going to use it. So if it's something I really care about, I will say how I really feel about it. A lot of times I just know it's not going to be used so I don't get super in depth with them. I also think my husband has business partners who I very much differ from in political opinion and it is a conversation at our house ongoing. How do we show up in this day and age and deal with family members, co-workers, neighbors, people we love and care about who feel differently. John doesn't feel differently than me, but he works with people by choice who do. Where does what's best for his business cross into I don't like it or it makes me uncomfortable but Todd for the first time the other day said, oh yeah, do you and everybody on the show feel the same way? I know I was like, damn, Todd, no we don't. Okay, no we don't. I feel very differently than some of the women on the show about major things. Yeah, of course. It's hard to just us out who's a Trump voter in this group. I don't know who anyone votes for everybody votes. You don't know. Everybody votes in their own little booth and the privacy of their and I have not yet voted as a new American citizen. I know. I have not voted yet. So I'm not going to speak about anybody's voting habits, but I do hear things. I can't extrapolate from how people behave and what they do and I hear about donations and other things and I think, huh, yeah, nothing's I would do, but they probably think nothing's I would do about me all the time. Brittany, I wasn't going to bring it. She seemed like a lost soul to me. I feel really nervous for her when she's on screen because it's like, I don't feel like you're like with you, you've had good moments on the show, you have moments where maybe I think you probably look back and say, oh, I didn't like that. Sure. Would you feel like a strong, thoughtful person who is like in control of the decisions they're making? Yeah. And I see this person on the show and I'm like, I don't know why I'm watching this moment with the daughter. I don't know why I'm watching this moment with an ozman. Yeah. I feel like I feel unsafe. So I think for better or worse, I know who I am. So sometimes when I'm nervous, I really am confident and I can like turn it on. My daughter always says, you know, I'm really mad when I'm like serial killer calm. I don't like lose it in scream very often. I just get like really focused and I'm like, I remember exactly where we were and what day it was. It was two o' nine p.m. and you had a serenely in blue shirt on. You know, like I get real intense when I'm upset. Or I kind of like cry and crumble. I don't really have a lot of in between. I like can handle it or I cannot. And I think sometimes what I feel like with Brittany is that she gives us the impression she can handle it. She will poke the bear a little bit with Meredith. She will taunt me a little bit. And then when we give back a version of that to her, maybe it's too strong. Maybe it's harsher than I think it is, but she does seem to not be able to like handle the rat-a-tat-tat of it. You know, she wants to like start it, but she can't finish it and maybe even can't like middle it. You know what I mean? And so that is an interesting thing where I do feel for her watching it back. I'm like, damn, it looks like we bully her a little bit. But I'm like, no, I was there and I lived that. And she definitely brought that tick tock up. Or she definitely called me a gold digger. And I was like, oh, what's the ozman of it all? You know, whatever. But then there is this feeling that like she's the oldest of the group. You know, she's had multiple marriages and divorces. Not that that's a good or bad thing, but just like, you know, if Todd and I didn't work out, I would think she could be somebody who told me what it felt like when she got divorced that time. Or you know, whatever. But I don't feel that like real surety from her. I don't know. It's really tricky. I don't always know what's going on there. So it's interesting because I like want to be friends with her and she almost feels like a little sister, but not a little sister, but also sometimes she's like so frustrating. I'm like, no, we are going to do this. Anybody else who said that to me, I would have a clap back for her. So we're going to fight because you feel nervous for it. You feel the same thing. You feel kind of like like almost protective because it feels something not quite right. Yeah. I said to somebody the other day and I don't know this is the best analogy. And maybe I shouldn't repeat it. I was like, sometimes it feels like a little kid kicking my chair. I would never turn around and yell at a little kid. So sometimes I want to be like, please stop kicking my chair. Please stop kicking my chair. And then I do yell at her, you know? And then she's like a five-year-old and she can't handle it. So I'll say this. I love that Brittany is very herself and people used to say this to me and I didn't take it as a compliment, but I mean this as a compliment for Brittany. She does bounce back from disappointment and she rebounds very well. Yeah. I mean, she can take a beating from all of us. I mean, we all yelled at her on this printer van and she like, you know, toss, toss, glint on her hair and like got it back together and kept going. You know, I would have gone home from part of the art. Yeah, you would have been like leveled. Yeah, no, that is interesting. I thought about leaving a couple of times in part of my art and I didn't go through that Sprinter van, Mei-Lay. You know what I mean? So there's part of me that's like Brittany is so tough and she knows what she's doing. And I think there's something very specific she wants out of the show and I like see her angling for that. And then other times she doesn't show up that way and it's interesting to like watch it happen and have grace for it but also be frustrated and buy it. Because you're, because you're dinner, sometimes directed at you. Yeah, maybe Brittany and I have like the realist friendship of all of us then because I know her weaknesses and I like respect and like them, but they also dreamy nuts because that's the most honest relationship I have on the show. A lot to think about. I have to really consider if I mean that or not. Yeah, we're going to close my mind. We've got to get a new therapist. You're a Broadway producer. Yeah. You cabaret. Queen of Versailles. You have Chris and Chenowit, Steven Schwartz, F. Murray Abraham. What the fuck? I know. I know. I was bummed. You know, I was too. And I would, you know, Queen of Versailles got real messy right before the opening and like what my involvement was going to be and something my husband really was like not, you know, excited about my husband's really a numbers guy and he was hearing a lot from people behind the scenes that it was not going well. And I kept being like, it's going to go well. Christian Cowan's doing the costume. It was Christian, Chenowit's in it. Like the story is everything. And it's, this is kind of what I was talking about earlier about like what's interesting, how things play out, who we root for, who we don't, who, what's this like Queen of Versailles just lovingly imploded. It just imploded. And I feel awful for the people who work on it, who were so excited about it. And put so much time and dedication into all of the roles that go on to put on a Broadway show. But it's interesting what we will say is too far. I see a lot of people saying like the story's not, you know, appropriate right now. Or it was glorifying over consumption or, you know, all these other things. And it's interesting to me what we'll watch and be like rooting for and what we will say. Nope, that's too far. Right. I saw it in previews. And what I thought was, oh, this is a show, the Ghost Work conversation, where as they're making it, they're not thinking about what the show was meant to be, but actually they're worried about the criticism. So you feel the kind of layers of, it's too much glorifying wealth. It's, you know, I mean, like you feel those things kind of being layered on top of it. And then it kind of falls under the weight a little bit. Yeah. Well, I saw a lot of commentary on Instagram from people saying, well, if you haven't seen it, you don't actually know how it ends. And I was like, but I shouldn't be going to a show wondering how it ends. I should be going to a show open minded about it. Right. And if the audience was already sure what they were going to get from this, like no matter what the ending was, it was doomed. Yeah. If you go into it with that mindset, so it's, I feel sad for everybody involved. I really do because so many people, it's not just the big names, right? So many people put everything into this and it's an opportunity for everybody. And it's hard when a dream never works, you know, no matter what it is. But I don't know. It's, it's really interesting in our society right now. What people will just glum onto and say, like, absolutely not. Like it felt like a mob mentality towards that show. It did. I think it's exciting that you want to support Broadway shows. Like I love going to musicals and very few seem to be working. Like are you going to look for another opportunity or keep doing it? Well, yes, my husband has a very good friend who was a Navy SEAL and then did like consulting. They met because he did consulting for my husband at HP and he did like Miami Dolphins and like this very wide, weird career history that's very fascinating. And he's the kind of person who I'll see him over dinner and he'll be like, how are you? And I'll be like, good. And he'll be like, don't lie to me. This is what's going on. And like immediately make me cry. Like he just gets right in on the tender meat, right? And the way he's fascinating. But he now does investing in Broadway shows. And so he does it from this whole algorithm and storytelling and all these components that are so fascinating for me. For me, it's really about storytelling. You know, when we first got into it, Kavare felt like a story that needed to be retold in this moment. Yeah. To a new audience, to fresh eyes who were maybe experiencing a very same situation. I get the same time really wanted to be part of Suffs and was like desperately trying to get in on Suffs because again, felt like a story that needed to be told in an election year about what it feels like to really talk about women's rights. Not just women's reproductive rights, but women's rights in general. So for me, it's always about storytelling. When I get dressed in the morning, when I go see a Broadway show, when I'm trying to figure out what's going on with me in Brittany, it's always about how am I connecting to this person's story and who they are and what they're trying to tell me about themselves. So I hope there's more Broadway in my future. Yeah, of course. So I have a question. As you said, you became a US citizen quite recently. It's in the last year, right? Yeah, this year. Why didn't you become a citizen when you were a kid at some point? And then why did you want to go through it now? It feels like buying stock and Theranos after. You know what I mean? It's like a cool time to push your chips forward on America. Right? I know. I know. And everyone says that has that kind of criticism from me. And I feel the exact opposite. I'm not critical. I'm glad. We're glad to have you. Welcome. Thank you. It's a messy family. We've got a lot of issues. It is. But more than Marriars, what I said. I feel like I married myself into this family tree somehow. No, my parents are not US citizens. Both my parents were born outside of the US and moved here as adults and had my siblings in the US so they just were automatically US citizens. It was something my parents were like desperate for them to have. They just had it. I was important in the US and it was not foreign. When we traveled, my parents didn't have US passport. So we always went through as a family no matter what. I was not odd by any way or shape or form. And then we moved to Europe when I was a little girl. And it just like people think my name is weird or they don't know how to spell it or pronounce it. That's my name. I've always known that. It's not weird to me. Brown one feels like a normal name. It just felt like who I was that I was in the US citizen. So I went through all of high school and college and I didn't really think about it until I was kind of seriously dating Todd. And he would be annoyed that he had global entry and I did not. And that was honestly the first time that I was like, this is kind of weird that I don't have it. I mean, I've always paid taxes. I've always done all of that. Like since I was a teenager teaching little kids gymnasque classes after school, whatever. And then I kind of, over the last maybe 10 years felt a shift in my politics. I think most people go through like a understanding and college of what works for them separate from what they grew up with or maybe reinforces what they grew up with. And that all kind of happened at once for me being like, oh, I want to do more than donate, speak out, you know, give money, right? And volunteer. I want to actually vote. And then my daughter was turning 18 and was able to vote. And it was upsetting to me trying to convince her that this was this important, sacred thing when I never gone through any of the hoops to do it myself. I just talked about it. So I decided to do it. And it was something that I had a really intentional way I wanted to do it. I wanted to do it all by myself. You know, Todd has the resources and connections and all kinds of things to have probably made it easier for myself. Yeah. You get a rich person to back those through the back door of the EMV kind of thing. Exactly. Or you know, he's done some stuff. Different government contracts that his, you know, private equity firm, that kind of I'm sure somebody could have been called, you know, whatever to help me get to the right person. If I really wanted it, I'm just being honest. But maybe it's like, okay. How about this? I'm not a passport. Here's the thing. Yeah. I mean, probably. I know that sounds awful, but I probably could have had an easy time if I wanted it. But I decided if I was going to do it, so much discourse is said around just become a citizen. Just do it the legal way. Just immigration would just be solved if everybody did X. And so I was like, well, I'm going to see what it feels like. And I will tell you, I'm so glad I did because it is difficult. It is a lengthy process. There is a lot of fear involved in it. And I went through it at a really spicy time. I really did. So I was approved at the end of 2024. I'd already done my application. I'd had my interview. I took my test. And the Salt Lake City Office doesn't do same day citizenship after you take your test and have your interview. They give you a date to come back. And I had a date for February. And the administration changed between when I was approved and when my swearing in date was. And I spent all of December and January panicked about what that meant for me. Was it going to change? Were they not going to be doing swearing in? Were they going to revamp my application? Was that to start all over? And so I really was panicking. And then my green card was set to expire before my swearing in date. And we were filming for Bravo in any moment. You have to be ready to travel and do all these things. And the thing that's interesting is your status as a resident can expire, but you're typical your card, your physical card can expire. So I am allowed to go in and out, but it's very difficult if your card is expired. So I was lost in translation. I hadn't had my swearing in date. And you can't apply for a new green card when you have been approved to be a citizen. So we had this limbo zone and all these ice raids started happening. And I was like, wow, people don't think that a, I mean, I'm white and I'm married to somebody successful and wealthy and I have time and resources and privilege. And I was like, this could be the early dark for me. I could have a problem. And going to my swearing in, my green card had already expired and you have to show it to check in. And I thought, you know, I could get arrested going for my swearing in. It is scary. You know, I had days where they said, come this day for your interview and you get a week's notice. If I had a typical nine to five job, I might not have been available at 10 30 on a Wednesday. If I didn't have a printer at home, if I wasn't a native English speaker to answer the questions and understand exactly what's being asked on an application, there's a lot of things I think people don't understand about what it looks like to actually go through the process to become a citizen. And in all transparency and honesty, I freaked out mid-January and hired an immigration attorney. I was scared to death that in those last few weeks, something was going to happen. You were okay though. You went through the test. You were going to always see. You were done and approved and you're approved and you have a swearing in date. You just have to come back and it's actually this really fun thing. And it's like they do it as a group. But everyone does the oath together and everyone gets to talk if they want to. And I wore it like a little red one, blue outfit. It works. And it's very ridiculous. You get this piece of paper that literally you cannot lose because it is, you know, your citizenship hinges on this piece of paper. And you also have to mail it in to get your passport. And I was like, but if I mail it in and I lose, it's very stressful. It is. And I hired an attorney and he went with me to my swearing in and he said to me, stay in the parking lot in your car. I'm going to go up and check you in. And if there's the presence of ice, I will just make sure that there's no issue. Like when you check in, there's like a list and they have all these things. Whatever. And he goes, I just want to see what it feels like. Even me already approved just coming for a swearing in. It's like a nice ceremony. He was like, let's just see what the vibe is in the office before you come up. Let's just make sure. That's smart. And I think that people need to understand that. It's not so black and white. You're illegal or you're not. There's so many nuances to what it looks like to have the legal, as people say, process to a US citizenship. Do you get any questions wrong in the test? I did not. But they asked them to me verbally. I got to do it verbally. And I always tell people, I studied 45 minutes a day for like three or four weeks. You could have studied four to five minutes and passed the test that I was given. The questions were ones that I already knew. There was a lot I didn't know about like the Spanish American war and things like that that I was really worried about. But one of the questions was, I needed to name a local representative for myself. I needed to be able to name some of the colonies. I think it was like five of the original colonies. They asked me about like legislative executive, you know, all the branches, that kind of a thing. So there were things that I felt like I did have a good grasp on. But I mean, I made flashcards. I got the US citizenship for dummies from Amazon. I did the whole thing. And you're going to see a little bit of it on the show. That's exciting. You will. I imagine by the way, also there are a fair number of citizens that would have also struggled and needed the flashcards. I actually think, okay, Bravo's not here. I can give you a little spoiler. There's discussion about my citizenship coming on the show. I have an event around it. And I think in confessional, they didn't ask me of course because I already studied. But I think they asked the other women some of the questions from the citizenship test. So if that makes the episode, I would love to know. I would love to see how many of them know the answer to those questions. I cannot wait to find out. That is honestly terrifying. Bravo Newport. Thank you so much for your time. So good to talk to you. Great conversation. Really appreciate it. And I'm excited for your next Broadway show. But I'm also excited for this reunion. I got a lot to look forward to. I'm not going to invite you to the reunion, but maybe we'll go to a Broadway show together. Okay. Perfect. Good deal. Good deal. Let me hold you in. It's up in one event. If you're already scrolling endlessly, which we know you are, don't forget to follow us at CrookedMedia on Instagram, TikTok, and all the other ones for original content, community events, and more. 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