Cortney Nicolato of United Way of Rhode Island on Leading with Data, Taking Political Risk, and Making Change Stick

Most organizations approaching their 100th anniversary would be looking back and celebrating past achievements. United Weight of Rhode island is doing the opposite. Under Courtney Nicolado's leadership, they're taking bigger swings than ever from meeting $100 million racial equity commitment ahead of schedule to becoming the go to source of real time community data for state policymakers. Courtney returned to her home state after building a national career because she wanted to help the communities that helped her. Growing up as a latchkey kid in Pawtucket, she transformed United Way from the inside, first rebuilding the board and staff to reflect Rhode Island's diversity before asking anyone else to change. And when others began backing away from equity commitments, her response was clear.

0:07

We have been doing equity since 1926. Whether we've said the words, whether we didn't say the words, we were doing the work in the DNA, not changing.

0:54

This is a conversation about what it takes to be both an emergency responder and a long term systems builder, about earning a seat at the policy table with data instead of survey results, and about building organizational culture that will outlast any single leader. It's Courtney Nicolado on the business of giving. Before we dive in, I'm thrilled to share a milestone and a gift. This year marks my 50th year serving nonprofits and to celebrate, I'm giving away 10,000 free copies of my book Cultivating Nonprofit Excellence. This 350 page guide distills a thousand CEO interviews and 150 focus groups into battle tested strategies for hiring, onboarding, feedback, collaboration and leading teams that thrive even in tough times. Why free? Because transformative tools should be accessible to every leader. No fees, no catch. Just my thanks to a sector I love. Thousands are already transforming their teams with these insights. Grab your copy at denver-frederick.com that's Denver Frederick. Now let's meet today's guest. Welcome to the business of giving.

1:04

Courtney, thanks for having me. I appreciate being here.

2:19

It's a delight to have you here. United Way Rhode island is approaching the hundredth anniversary, your centennial. Congratulations on that.

2:22

Thank you. I feel like I look good for 100.

2:29

For listeners who may only know the United Way name from workplace campaigns, how do you define what the organization is today and how it has evolved in recent years?

2:32

It's been so interesting to we're doing like a history poll right now. We're deep looking at all the various ways that United Way Rhode island has served our state. And so for folks that may not know United Way Rhode island, we serve the entire state. Yes, the tiniest state in the country, but we serve the entire state. We're one of the larger United Ways in the country. We have about 100 staff and are about a $20 million annual budget. We also run 211 here in the state of Rhode Island. So the largest call center I call the front door to social services here in the state. So we have this interesting. We're kind of like a hodgepodge of. Some folks think of United Ways when they think about employee giving. Some folks think about United Ways around impact, United Way. Rhode island does all the things because our state is so small. But in this history poll that we've done, what I think I'm so proud of is that United Way has been here for Rhode island at every big major moment that they needed us. So from everything from the Great Depression to major hurricanes that have occurred to a really large station nightclub fire that happened here in Rhode island in the early 2000s and Covid and now through all of the federal administration changes and what we've done consistently across the board and every single time and is we've convened community to talk about the major issues facing our community and what we needed to do to shift that. We have convened donors and we have convened our government officials. We have also invested in community and we've invested in really solving long standing issues facing our state. So super proud to then get to see that threaded throughout the hundred years.

2:44

Oh, I love that. Anytime I can't really understand an organization, I always go back to their origin story and then I go through their history a little bit and it provides a fresh lens to understand them better because there's so many threads that you just suggested that really tell you what we are and who we are, because it remains very much the same. Well, you are a Rhode island girl. And then after building a national career in Texas, what drew you back home to Rhode Island?

4:29

I grew up as a low to middle income kid in Pawtucket, which is one of our northern cities in the state of Rhode Island. I had folks lifting me up throughout my journey. I was a latchkey kid like many in their mid-40s. So I had neighbors and friends and teachers and coaches really lifting me up along my journey. And so to have the opportunity to go work at the national office of the American Heart association to help really make systemic changes in communities across the globe was such a rewarding experience. But I kept going like, I want to do it in my state, I want to do it where I grew up. I want to help folks who helped me. So there was always like this Tug Rhode island has this tug to bring you back. And so the opportunity presented. I was reading the Providence Journal like a good Rhode Islander and saw that my predecessor was retiring and this was about eight years ago now, and saw the opportunity and said, you know what? This is my opportunity. Because I know United Way really, truly is that convener and change agent. And so, no, knowing that United Way had those tools in its toolbox made this opportunity really the perfect one.

4:56

I love the Rhode Island Journal and magazines like that and I pray that they don't go away someday. I know, because they are so invaluable. Let's talk about a couple of things you do. In 2021, you launched Live United 2025, and that was $100 million commitment explicitly focused on building racial equity rather than the traditional United Way language about helping everyone. How did you know it was time to make racial equity the explicit center rather than keeping it implicit?

6:11

What was really important to us was we saw the data. The data did not lie. The data told us that there was disparities in health care and education, in workforce development and access to workforce development. And we have been working in the world of equity for a long time. But we also knew we were looked at and viewed as a role model in our community. And it was really important for us to double down and be bold and say, if not us, then who? And so while we continue to serve Rhode Islanders and all Rhode Islanders, we did targeted and really focused programming and investments to make sure that we were also combating those challenges that had faced our communities of color for so long. And so when we said we were going to invest 100 million over the course of five years, we had folks go, yeah, right, okay, good luck. How's that going to happen? And we actually met that hundred million dollar investment in four years. And this is in areas of everything from insur, ensuring that kids in marginalized communities have access to summer learning programming, to ensuring that we were increasing opportunities around workforce development for our state and investing in our higher educational institutions and areas like that. So we are so proud. Live United 2025 is now wrapped as we are in 2026, and we have exceeded our expectations in meeting those goals. But we also know that there is an immense amount of work to continue to do. We were merely starting scratching that surface.

6:40

Let's talk a little bit about that. What are two or three outcomes from live 2025 that you are most proud of? And how is that experience shaping where United Way Rhode island heads next?

8:09

Yeah, and I'll Give one example in how we're building strong families and then how we're building strong nonprofits. So on the strong family side, one of the areas that we had heard loud and clear is that folks wanted to increase certification program. They wanted to build a better tomorrow for their family, but they were working two or three jobs or their car couldn't get to the site for certification, or they needed a computer to complete a certification training or program. And so it was always the social needs. There was always a desire to grow and build economic mobility and financial mobility for their family, but it was the social needs not being met. So we partnered with the Office of Post Secondary Commissioner, which is our higher ed institution here in the state of Rhode island, and we worked with them. And I call the team the busters, right? Getting all of these big social issues and just blocking and tackling them away. And so anything from tires on cars to computers to we removed a face tattoo off of someone because they weren't getting interviews. And those social needs not being met changes the game for so many Rhode island families. When we started the program, the social components weren't being met. And when Office of Post Secondary Commissioner came to us and they're like, what's the issue? We kept saying, it's the social needs, it's the social needs. And so they only at that point had a 29% completion rate, and then now they have between an 89 and 92% completion rate at any given time. And so it's like, see, we knew this, right? So that's one of the things that I am so proud of on. It's a program called Rhode Island Reconnect that we do in partnership on the strong nonprofit side. Coming from Dallas and living and leading in Dallas. One of the things that I noticed when I came back home was the non profit sector here in the state of Rhode island did not have the same supports that I had in Dallas. In Dallas, we had the center for Nonprofit Management, which provided really critical, wonderful tools, helped me as CEO for the first time figure out how to buy a payroll system. I didn't know how to buy a payroll system, but really gave me that kind of technical assistance, business assistance that organizations yearn for and really need. And so when I got home, I said, we need this, we need to build this. And so we spent a good year and a half working with our sector. We talked to 42 other centers from across the country to say what worked, what didn't work. And two years ago, we created the alliance for Nonprofit Impact and The alliance has about 500 organizations as members. They have been the translators of all the federal changes that have been happening. We're providing nonprofit organizations everything from HR support to legal support to shared services to leadership development trainings. Really, truly a technical assistance resource center that I believe the nonprofit sector here in Rhode island so very deserves.

8:20

Fantastic. Courtney, was there anything that surprised you most about what nonprofits are actually seeking help with?

11:20

I think that there were a couple. Of course, when we first did our survey, nonprofits were like, help us connect with funders money. I get it. I get it. And so that was definitely one that we heard loud and clear. And so we've done that. We've created more space where funders are visiting with nonprofits. They're getting to know our nonprofits. I think there was a lot of things that we all figured would be the case. Nonprofits are mission driven businesses. I can get on a soapbox and talk to you why that's so important that we talk about nonprofits as businesses. And so this really gives the nonprofit community those business tools that isn't always readily available for them. And my opinion is that the nonprofit sector is the center point, the anchor of all that is good in communities. And if they are not working, then our community is not working.

11:27

I will second that. Let's move on to 21 1. Rhode Island's 211 has become a national model with the highest per capita usage in the country. And I think you have a walk in service as well. How did you come to see 211 not just as a helpline, but as infrastructure that reveals patterns in community need. And what would some of those patterns be today?

12:19

Yeah, so with 211, we take about 214,000 connections or contacts with.

12:41

That's a lot for Rhode Island.

12:46

That's a lot of Rhode Islanders. And so for folks that are listening, Rhode Island's total population is 1.1 million. Right. And so 214,000. That's a good pulse check on what's happening at any point in time in our state. We also took a unique stance with 21 1. We have a mobile unit that goes to 55 different locations every month. We have in person in Providence where you can come in and seek services in person. We have a chat, we have the calls. I often say everything but carrier pigeon you can get to us. And so we do that very purposefully because we want folks to feel and trust that we are here to support them. Because I do believe that there's a vulnerability that comes when someone has to say I need help. Right. And so we want to make it as easy as possible for folks to come to us and say I need help and they've got a compassionate person there to help them and support them. And so I think our secret sauce of the program has really been the multi dimensional aspect of how you can get to us, number one. I think also it's been exceptionally helpful to have two on one as we think about solving long term issues in our state. Because I can see data in real time at any point in time on my iPad, I can go right to the Power BI dashboard forward and see exactly what's happening in Rhode island, what are the needs? And we've used this in a number of different ways. One is where we see gaps in community need. We're investing in those communities, utilizing our Community Impact Fund dollars to invest wisely in those communities. We're nurturing and we're recruiting volunteers to meet specific needs so that organizations can scale and do what they need to do. Additionally, we utilize this data to really have meaningful policy conversations with our elected officials. And so Rhode island, if anybody knows Rhode island, it is very motivated by policy and very motivated by elected officials. And so to have that data in our back in our hand at any point in time to say this is what's really happening in Rhode island, this is why investment in XYZ housing is a prime example needs to happen has been invaluable to our ability to move the needle on those key issues.

12:48

Yeah, you've been working closely with the speaker on housing and there are a lot of United Way leaders who shy away from that. They don't want to get into the political realm. How do you think about the role of philanthropy and how it should play in shaping policy?

15:01

Yeah, I think that there's a difference between being nonpartisan and being active in advocacy. There's a very distinctive difference. I am very active one because our state really necessitates me to be very active in understanding what's happening with our elected officials, how they're thinking about policy, how they're shaping change. They come to us first for data. They ask us to help them draft legislation because there's so much trust there. And so that's a really important component of our work. And as you mentioned, I sit, I work very closely with the House Speaker, Joe Sir Carchi specifically and his commitment around housing. That is something that we've been advocating and working on for decades. And it's really been now that we have the leader in Joe Sikarchi and our ability to provide data and insights and stories. And that's been the ability to move the needle in ways that I think, quite frankly, my predecessors dreamed of. And so policy and advocacy is such a critical part of our work now more than ever. But I do think also we have to be where decisions are being made. And nonprofits and philanthropy cannot move unless we are at the places and spaces where decisions are made. So that's the way we look at it.

15:14

And I love what you said about data before, 2 with 2, 1, 1. It really underscores the death of the survey because when you see real behavior of people, that's how they feel. If you do a survey, they're not lying to you, they're probably lying to themselves. It's just. It can mislead you and down the wrong roads. But not when people say, this is what I need right now. It really becomes honest data that can inform and empower.

16:33

I agree. One of our legislators said to me, and I haven't forgotten it, and what they said was, when I get five emails on an issue, I pay attention.

16:56

Yep.

17:06

And I really appreciated that candor. But what I also said was, well, I can give you 214,000 examples.

17:07

That's right.

17:15

So that really opened their eyes to sit back and go, oh, this data is people. Every call, every contact is a human that has a need. And I can then break it down by their district, which is even more fun. And oftentimes they'll say, well, this is what I'm hearing from my constituents. I can go, well, this is actually what's happening in your community.

17:15

Oh no, that's great. A bigger chair at the table, that's for sure. And it's non solicited data that people are just taking the initiative because this is what's going on in their lives. Courtney, you rebuilt United Way's board composition, its operating system, its internal culture around equity principles and other things before asking Rhode Islanders to transform. Tell us a little bit about that, the resistance you encountered and how you move people along that continuum.

17:37

Yeah. One of the things when we were really doubling down on our work inequity, we said, well, no one's going to believe it unless we do it ourselves. And I have always been a firm believer you got to jump in first and then ask others to jump in with you. And so we did just that. We did an equity assessment of the organization, we did an assessment of our leaders, we did an assessment of how we do compensation, we did an assessment of how we do our grant Making so that we can ensure that we were redistributing Power Dynamics. That was an incredibly important part of the work that we did. Additionally, we looked at our board and said, do we have the right people in the right seats representing the right thing? And we had lots of great humans, but we did not have the proper representation. Now we have one of the most diverse boards in the state. One of the things that I really do love about my board and so grateful for is when we go all in, we go all in. We're all committed. And so that's really allowed us to utilize our governance practices, really cast a wider net to obtain board members. We've built pipeline in our board and really introduced young individuals of color, non profit leaders, et cetera, to serving on the board at United Way of Rhode Island. And so that's been really, really successful. We have one of the most diverse staffs in the state. I believe the last number I saw was 70% are humans of color on our staff. And that's all way up our leadership management team as well. I am the first woman CEO.

18:06

I shouldn't have been absolutely and will.

19:45

Not be the last name, will not be the last. But I don't take that for granted and I take that role very seriously. And part of that is how do we then extend that commitment to our communities across Rhode Island? And so it's been a labor of love and it's been a lot of hard conversations and lots of, yeah, we've always done it that way and we're no longer doing it that way.

19:49

But are you concerned about the snapback that some organizations are seeing across the state? I mean, it's a different time than it was three, four years ago. That's for sure.

20:13

That is for sure.

20:22

I'm wondering what you're observing and how you embrace it and get your arms around it to say, we're going to fight this.

20:22

Yeah, it's been really helpful to have conversations. We have such good relationships. I'll give you. Our corporate partners are a great example. We work with 300 corporate partners across the state and they were like, well, what do you think about what's happening with the federal demands on diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging? And what does this mean to you? You have racial equity in the mission of your organization? Like, what does that mean? And my response is always the same. We have been doing equity since 1926. Whether we've said the words, whether we didn't say the words, we were doing the work in the DNA, not changing. Also, I am A firm believer that United Way should be the group that jumps in first and should be the one that unites, literally and figuratively, the community. And so in order to do that, we've got to take the risk. But we also have built such trusting relationships that it really hasn't caused any problems. And so people really admire the fact that when the going got tough, United Way stayed exactly where it needed to be. And that's where we plan on staying.

20:28

Yeah, that's great. And also when this period passes, people will remember that.

21:32

Yeah.

21:36

So the long term, they'll say they were there. They didn't back off when federal funding cuts threatened. Speaking of which, nonprofits, last year you launched United Is the Way and that was an emergency response. How do you navigate both being an emergency responder while at the same time you're looking at the sector as a strategic advisor and have that long term lens?

21:36

Yeah, it's a great question, Denver. And I think one of the things when we launched United is the Way we needed to respond to the moment. January 21st, a year tomorrow, we're filming this talking in January. But one of the things that was really important in that moment, I won't forget the date because it was my birthday, so.

21:58

Oh, there you go. Well, happy birthday.

22:17

Thank you. Didn't feel good when all of those executive orders were coming out and people were trying to figure out, what does this mean for my organization? What are we going to do? How does this look? And we were translating as quick as we could, but we also quickly learned that there were critical services that were going to go away if we didn't do something. So our goal was to reduce service disruption as much as possible, especially at the most basic of needs, to support Rhode island families as they were going through it. And so United Is the way was a 500,000 plus. We ended up getting some additional funds from organizations and donors to put out to support organizations that were providing the most basic needs, food, shelter, et cetera. And so that was exceptionally important and exceptionally successful. We wanted to also make sure that those were unrestricted gifts, meaning those organizations have the ability to do what they need to do with it. I think that's something as funders, we need to do a better job. And we are a big proponent of trust based philanthropy. And so we live into those principles of trust based philanthropy. So United Is the Way was really focused on making sure that one, we had the right resources to expend and expand our programming at United Way so that we can ensure things like 2, 1, 1 and our community outreach had all the resources that they need because we did see 100%, 200% increases in calls January and in October of last year. But also making sure that our nonprofit partners had the ability and the funds that they needed to extend and continue really important services for our state. So to answer your question, United is the Way was really of how do we help in this moment in time? We also continue to fund through our Community Impact Fund those long term, really gnarly issues that need to be addressed. And with real focus on providing things like multi year grants to nonprofit organizations. Because we need nonprofit organizations have the time that they need to make the change that is necessary. And so doing both is hard, but necessary. As a funder like United Way, speaking.

22:19

Of unrestricted giving, I had a guest on the show by the name of Kevin Starr of the Malago foundation. And they're a champion of unrestricted giving. And he made a wonderful point. He said, if I know better where the money should be directed than the organization I'm giving it to, I probably shouldn't be giving it to them in the first place.

24:24

Right? Exactly.

24:43

Who am I to know better than they what needs to be funded? As I mentioned before we started, I started at the United Way and we were into payroll deduction and workplace giving. I want to ask you about workplace giving today. It's under pressure nationally as younger workers give differently. How are you evolving the model to stay relevant? And what do you wish business leaders understood about impact beyond that one time check or payroll deduction?

24:45

Great question. I think one of the things workforce and workplace giving is evolving. I sit on the Global Advisory Council at United Way and we're constantly thinking about this, constantly thinking about ways how can we engage younger group of donors? How can we think about our relationships with our corporate partners in a different way? In Rhode island, we've been exceptionally fortunate. Giving right now is up 22% year over year. Our corporate giving is up. We're seeing a lot of folks really leaning and trusting in United Way in our work. We're actually seeing a lot of new donors and a lot of younger donors coming to the table. Now. Do we want more and think we need more to build that pipeline? I don't think I would be the CEO if I said yes, like, we're good, we're all set. Like, this is not my job. But I do think that we are seeing a trajectory that we want now. Part of that is we had to take inventory inside to say our systems need to look different, our technologies need to look different. How we approach and connect with donors need to look different. And so we brought on social media experts, we brought on different marketing experts, we brought in a different level set of talent to help us as we were engaging in a different way. Companies also are looking at how they're giving in a different way. And so how we approach, I think I would say years and years ago and maybe when you worked at United Way, you'd go up to a company and say it's time of year for your employee giving again. Let's talk about how you want to do that.

25:11

Yep.

26:47

Now your relationships with your corporate partners are year round. You're doing lunch and learns in those companies and really talking about key issues that you know that's important to them. You are conducting volunteerism opportunities for their employees. You're having, they're part of your affinity groups, whether it be our Young leaders group or our Women United as an example. They sit on your committees. And so it's really important that you look at a multifaceted relationship with your corporate partners and really show that you're embedded within the DNA and the fabric of who they are and what they do. And I think the other thing that's exceptionally important is when I meet with a CEO and we talk about what's happening in our community, blah, blah, my first question is what's keeping you up at night? It's not, as you think about the community, what's keeping you up at night? What's keeping you up at night? Because I know part of my job is to ensure that that CEO not only sees a value in working with us, but also that we are distributing value back to them. And so I think that has been a shift in workplace giving even over the last 10 or so years. That will continue to evolve, I think in the near future as well.

26:48

Yeah, you got to understand them before they're going to understand you sometimes instead of 100%. Tell, tell, tell. You know, Courtney, the work you're doing goes well beyond programmatic changes. It's cultural transformation around equity, it's data driven decision making, it's sector leadership. And I also know you want these changes to stick and you want these changes to last well beyond your time here. What are you doing to embed these ships so deeply that they truly become. This is how we do things here rather than this is what Courtney championed.

28:05

Yeah. So I am a complete and utter nerd around change management. I am self proclaimed, but I am a total nerd about it. I have studied under folks like David Shore at Harvard, who is really just a rock star related to change management and understanding organizational shifts and cultural shifts for change. And so I have been the leader after a legacy leader twice, and I've lived to tell the story.

28:37

Yeah, those are tough to shoes to fill.

29:04

Those are tough shoes to fill. But what I've seen in what sticks is one, when something is connected or there is a correlation to our mission, folks are here for a reason. They are at this organization doing this work because they have a deep belief in what we're doing in that mission. And so culture shifts only really stick when you can see and feel one, that my work matters and that my work is making a difference. And so that is a big part of what we do and what we think about. So we're constantly helping folks understand and see firsthand what the impact of our work is doing in community. We are in community all the time. That is something that's really important. I call it the bucket filling moments. Those moments where we can go and we can visit with folks that we are so proud to invest in and work with so that we're not all sitting at one building and just wondering what's happening. We're actually seeing it too. So we're an active participant in everything from the advocacy work to our investments work to our volunteerism. And that really is such culture builders in our organization. We're proud to be a best place to work. I've been CEO seven years. We've been best place to Work six because they're too late to fill out the application for the first one.

29:06

So congratulations on that.

30:25

Yeah. But what's been really important to us is that we're constantly looking for feedback. We're constantly bringing our team along. We're constantly having conversations about what can we do differently and better. But we're also holding ourselves and each other accountable through that process. I think the last thing I'll just mention is that we have worked hard to make sure that we not only care about you as an employee, but we care about you as a human. And so making sure we have things like employee resource groups that are providing specialized support, our employee assistance program, various other tools, but really, at the end of the day, it's really making sure that folks know that we want them there and we care about them and their family. And I think that's what built the culture of our organization. And setting high expectations, but giving high support.

30:27

Yep. Yep. I've spoken to a lot of people about this as well. I wrote a book on workplace culture and nonprofits. And visited 150 organizations. And But I remember what one guy said. He said that you have to value somebody as an employee and as a person equally, but the person comes first. And if you value the person first, the employee will come along and not the other way around. And that has always stuck with me.

31:12

Yeah. Great.

31:38

Let me close with this. As we mentioned earlier, you United Way Rhode island turns 100 the Centennial. How are you thinking about that? Milestone is both the celebration of heritage and a vision for where the organization and Rhode island itself is headed.

31:39

Yeah, I'm very excited. Our anniversary is officially 6. 26. 26. So 6-26-26. Thank you to our forefathers for coming up with that date. Make it nice and easy. But we're not the first United way to turn 100. We're not the last. But we've got such an amazing legacy to celebrate. We've got so many corporate partners that have been with us 85 plus years of that hundred. And so one of the things that Rhode island is very much is a hyper local community. So we're going to celebrate that by being in each of the neighborhoods and communities across the state at various events that are meaningful to that community. So whether it's an art festival or a heritage festival or something that is meaningful to them, we want to be there. We want to celebrate our hundredth with community. So we're going to do a lot of that throughout the year. We're going to be bringing folks along where we're going to have various different events, CEO summits, Power of Women luncheon, where we're really integrating our 100th anniversary and our storytelling of our hundredth anniversary. We're writing a book about our hundred years in Rhode Island. So we're working with a partner right now to write that book and share all the pictures and the stories. And we're going to be bringing some of our donors and partners to tell video stories as well. And then we're going to wrap this all up in October. In Rhode island is a Rhode island treasure. It's called Waterfire. And yes, it's exactly what you think it is. It is fire on the water in the middle of downtown Providence. And we're going to be having a United Way water fire, where we're just going to have thousands and tens of thousands of community members come to downtown, celebrate what is an iconic Rhode island experience and celebrate the United Way at the same time. So we're looking forward to really just highlighting all our partnerships and all the things we've accomplished together as community, but also celebrating staff, former staff, former board members, and everyone who's touched this organization in such a meaningful way.

31:53

Just as I would have predicted. Inclusive. Inclusive. Inclusive.

33:54

Yep.

33:58

For those interested in learning more about the United Way of Rhode island, tell us about your website and how people residing in the state can help support this work.

33:58

Sure. So you, at any point in time can go to unitedwayri.org and that is our website. You can also go to our various social media channels. It's at unitedwayri where you can learn more about what we're happening. There's all kinds of events and ways to get involved. We actually just announced our Power Women luncheon that will be in March. And looking forward to that. And so my thing is always is that in order for communities to really work, you have to give your time, your talents and your treasures. Not just one, all three. And so if you're interested in doing that, we want to help you do that. And so it's something that we enjoy to do and will continue to do for hundreds of years to come.

34:06

Well, I can see you enjoy it. I want to thank you so much for being here today, Courtney. It was a real delight to have you on the program.

34:46

Thank you. It was great to be with you. Denver.

34:52