12:00 P.M. with Patrick Ball, Katherine LaNasa and Valerie Chu

You check on her? I need to brush up on my ASL. You know sign language too? Princess here knows six languages. I know French. It's not a contest. Je parle en plus français. Ah, très bien. No shit talking in front of me. I get enough of that from her and Berla. Welcome to The Pit Podcast, the official companion to HBO Max's The Pit. I'm Hunter Harris, a screenwriter and cultural critic. And I'm Dr. Alok Patel, a physician, journalist, and I just finished watching episode 6, 12 p.m. in the pit. A lot happened. A lot of interesting character moments. We're going to get into all of it. We're going to be joined by Patrick Ball, who plays Dr. Frank Langdon, and Catherine Lanasa, who plays charge nurse Dana, also known as Hunter's favorite pit character. I definitely felt a sense of disappointment in him. I mean, I really felt heartbroken, But I think when you're a mother, you know not to take this stuff personally, that, you know, that people screw up. And we'll also talk to one of the show's writers, Valerie Chu, who worked on this week's episode, about how the writers work on character arcs and dramas while also weaving in the medicine. Those tiny moments of humanity from Dana, we talked a lot in the room about how her exterior and her toughness is almost like she's calcified this season, but then you get little peaks of light coming through. And this is one of those moments. Today's shift starts now. Episode six. I want to do like a little recap on all these really big and important character moments that happened this episode, because there were some real moments of tension and friction that I want to talk about. Oh, for sure. And, you know, obviously, you know me and I love all the medical jargon and terminology, but there's there's an underlying message with each patient scenario and each kind of encounter also like there's so much happening in this episode yeah let's get into it so we start off very sad louis died and robbie and langdon kind of have a moment where they're looking at each other thinking how do we save him and they just can't resuscitate him it was it really like broke my heart. I love Louis. Should we get PCC? Too late for that. And he's not an ECMO candidate. Nothing else we can do. No, I think we're done. I think the Louis' development throughout multiple episodes kind of came to this climactic moment. And like, I was, I feel like we were there in the air with them also being like, oh. And when Dr. Robbie said, not an ECMO candidate. ECMO, extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, fancy way to say a life-saving invasive technique to basically give someone artificial lungs and hearts. Oxygenating your blood for you. When they said he's not a candidate, that kind of was the hint to them. They're like, there's nothing we can do to save him if we can't save him right now in this moment. Yeah. Watching everyone kind of come to that same conclusion that there's nothing more that they can do was really sad. I know. I was like, oh man, Louis. But there's one little moment that I have to give Dr. Robbie, or I should say Noah Wiley credit for. Remember, we were talking to some of the actors and they were mentioning how hard it was to do chest compressions in this setting and how hard it was to fake it. Noah Wiley is nailing those chest compressions, I think. Like, I'm looking at that. I was like, that was some good chest compressions. No, it was. It was like kind of sad to say that him like trying, like the physicality of that moment, I thought played really well. Like it really tugged at the heartstrings. And of course, this episode ends with like viewing Louis' body. And I think it's Langdon, right, who finds a photo. And then we have all this kind of like wonderful, lovely, but very heartbreaking moment. I didn't expect this, but that hit me the hardest emotionally out of anything we've seen so far in the show. He never really wanted kids. But Rhonda wore him down. And when she finally got pregnant, he changed his tune. He got excited. And then about a month before the baby was due, Rhonda and the baby were killed in a car crash. Though he never really came back from that. I love that that is treated sort of as, like, how would we find that out otherwise? Like, that he's known this forever, and that we're just now all learning this together, like, with the rest of the staff. That was really special. Emma holding his hand was really sad, because it is, like, her first day. And compare that to how Ogilvy reacts, I mean, my goodness. Like, Emma's a good egg. So then later, we have a pretty, like, tender moment, I would say, between Dr. Langdon and Nurse Dana, where Dr. Langdon kind of apologizes for his behavior. He's, like, doing the 12 steps. And Dana's like, no, we're good. Don't worry about it at all. Look, I... I, um... I've been working the 12 steps, trying to make amends. I was really selfish. I lied to myself and I lied to you. I'm really sorry. You can check me off your list, kid. We're good. Okay. Yeah. Got a lovely patient for you too. Let's get you back on the horse. It was like layers being peeled back from the onion that is charging her Staina. Yeah, and also- Because she's such a tough, tough person and she was like revealing a little bit of her softer human side. That she couldn't stay away from the pit. That she like went home for a couple weeks and got bored. And I'm like, I get it. Like you have kind of the coolest job in the world. It's like this toxic relationship, you know, where it like hurts you and you have problems. But then you're like, I miss the excitement. I miss the roller coaster. And it's also part of her identity. And we also get a little moment where she calls Langdon slow. Like he coming back is not as quick as he used to be, which I thought was pretty satisfying, which I also thought was important for her to say that like somehow she's the one to say that to him and he would get it the right way. He wouldn't be insulted. She like gave him that little like cake, like a little brother, like, all right, you healed. You're good. but like I need Dr. Langdon back now. Right. Like buck up. That's the attention that Robbie isn't giving him. Hunter, I feel like throughout season two, we've had these light touches on technology in the clinical setting. We've been talking about this tension regarding AI that's building up between Dr. Robbie and Dr. Al Hashimi. Now Santos with her charting issues starts to use AI and there's a little bit of an error in a patient chart because she didn't proofread what the generative AI wrote for her. A little bit of an error. I'd say a pretty substantial error, a few actually. Dr. Alashimi. Yes. Dr. Santos was just using your AI tool for her charting, and it hallucinated a history of appendicitis. As I mentioned to Dr. Santos, generative AI is not perfect. We still need to proofread every chart it creates. The patient also has a history of headache, followed by Dr. Park from urology. That should probably be neurology. Unless urologists are now treating migraines. Let this be a teachable moment for all medical trainees or people adopting tech, you have to proofread. I'm just going to take a stand and say the machines are not going to be as accurate as a human is. Yeah, I'm like, what else could be in that person's chart now? Or like how many other mistakes have happened that Santos like hasn't caught yet? But also neurology versus urology, I've had to fix that correction on the phone. Really? That's like people hear like neurology at 2 a.m. And they're like, wait, are you talking about urology? Urology is like bladder, right? Urology, yeah. Think kidney and bladder. Okay. Neurology. think brain yeah but even if i was saying something like clonidine or clonapin two different drugs we're talking about the difference between treating blood pressure and anxiety and that's so easy to make that that mistake wow but this is an interesting full circle moment because you see santo's like trying to figure out use these tools then she finally uses the tool that dr al-hashimi is like use ai use ai and then a mistake happens and someone angry comes down and is like, what is this appendectomy? What is this mistake? I mean, my goodness. I'm kind of over Santos complaining about the charting. I'm like, girl, just stay late like everyone else. Also, I don't understand why she's the only one who, like, do the other ones, are they not doing their charting? Because I don't see them charting, but somehow she has all the charts. I don't know, something's not adding up. And I don't know why Dr. Al-Hashimi is so hard on her about it. Like repeating your R2 year, come on. That was very aggressive. Like I am very team Dr. Al-Hashimi, but that was that one little moment when I was like, homie, no one's repeating R2 year because they didn't finish charting. in one shift. We're Santos defenders. I would be in residency forever if it came down to not finishing charts on time. And all my colleagues listening who are watching this podcast are nodding their heads. There's a lot of interesting patient encounters. One thing I love about this show is you get an interesting patient coming through and you just never quite know what the lesson is going to be or what the writers are trying to teach us. You have this potential case of poor treatment and malnourishment in a correctional facility. And this patient, Gus, also a great moment to really see some of the heart come out in his staff. And then you have this Evel Knievel style accident with this motorcyclist, Brandon Lee. Presumably he like fell from a motorcycle pyramid or something. And there is this, again, this back and forth about motorcycles and helmets and this undertone of what Dr. Robbie is doing, the risks and all this. What was your takeaway? Well, I mean, you know, of course, this patient is the one who's like so gung-ho on Dr. Robbie going in the sabbatical. And it's like, well, sweetheart, you're laid out right now. You're literally in the hospital. I don't know if I should be taking your advice. I like how everyone is like, hmm, a motorcycle accident. Dr. Robbie, what do you think? They're like looking at him and, you know, there's, were you wearing a helmet? And he's like, I was. Of course. So that's good. Someone said like, oh, they're still in fashion. Yeah. It was interesting. Of course. Of course. Of course. Here's my question though. You know, aside from the fun of the moment, if you will, do you think that this case is going to have some type of impact influence on Dr. Robbie and the sabbatical, him wearing a helmet. Is there a foreshadowing moment that we're seeing here? Okay. So I don't know if Dr. Robbie is going to actually make it to his sabbatical. I don't know if he's going to go because I feel like they keep mentioning it and all these little like cases that come in and kind of challenge like the motorcycle thing. Should he really leave? Like, is he leaving the ED in good hands? I don't know. I'm thinking that maybe he's going to bail at the last minute, but I do think that there's definitely some type of foreshadowing that maybe the motorcycle of it all might shift or change. Because I know he's looking forward to it, though. We'll see. So you think it's deeper than just this Evel Knievel mishap? Oh, totally. 100%. 100%. I think that Dr. Robbie is really being faced with, what's it really at stake here for him going to the sabbatical? What is he looking for on this long ride? I think we'll see. And again, kind of continuing on with the theme of this episode, I feel like, which is patient encounters and their underlying meaning, which I cannot wait to talk to Valerie Chu. But we see Roxy and she's with her death doula, but then also some type of push and pull with her husband and her not wanting to go home. Is it because she doesn't want to be at home? Is it because she doesn't want to be with him? We don't quite know. We also have this powerful moment with this patient who needs a sign language interpreter. And again, to me, that scene strikes me as a moment of really being able to be there for patients with cultural competency and accommodating them and making sure that we have the same amount of resources and equity for all cases. But I want to just with Roxy what do you think is happening at home with her Do you think what is the reason that she doesn want to be around her husband She like go away dude I be right behind you No No I riding in the back with you Yeah, I'll stay with her. You sure? Yeah. Okay. I don't think it's that she doesn't want to be around him. I think that she, that it's emotional to be at the end of your life and also to see the kind of toll that she's taking on her husband and on her family. You know, being a caregiver is a lot of work and very like personally draining. And I feel like maybe she feels responsible for kind of taking over his life with her care. And it's almost maybe a way of exercising her own agency, like regaining a little bit of like dignity. Like I want to stay in the hospital. I don't want to be burdened anymore. And I think it's very moving. And I wish she could understand that a little bit more. But I mean, he can't. He loves her. He can't see past that. And I respect his persistence. And when he says things like, I want to take care of you, you are my wife. And like you mentioned, she must feel some type of guilt. And it's the caregiver population in this country is only growing. And I feel like this is probably a very common scenario, sadly, that a lot of people are going through. Yeah. I wonder too, how much of it is like, I don't want to like have to adjust their home life anymore to her illness. Like, if she stays in the hospital, then it's just one less piece of medical equipment that their sons have to be surrounded with and see every day. And I think that's a real moment of like her trying to care give for everyone else in her life. Moment of the episode for me though, was nurse Dana when, uh, that man like grabs Emma's arm. The beg, spit and curse for food, but you gotta stay strong. Hey, I've been waiting for an hour. When am I going to see a fucking doctor? Excuse me. Perhaps you didn't see this, which is strange because they're all over the place. Aggressive behavior toward healthcare workers is a felony. $2,000 fine, possible jail time. Got it? Dana immediately springs into action. And you also see kind of the trauma response to like how she was treated last season when she was punched. And she's very no nonsense about it. And I like that Emma is introduced to the pit with that moment, you know, that she sees like you can really advocate for yourself and you should not take that kind of behavior lightly or you should stand up for yourself. I thought that was really good. And she deflated that dude's anger. Yes. And the way that she even like brings the hospital bed, like arm back up to like block him even more. Just the physicality of that. That was so good. I don't know if I have a moment I have like five moments at the episode but I'm I have a quote award okay the quote award my opinion goes to Whitaker who says always listen to the nurses they run the ER we just try to stay out of their way I mean everyone should be agreeing with that like no they're really like I love all the nurses and I think this is a great episode where they're just as quick just as like interested in patient care obviously but you know no they're good at reading people all of these nurses i think that's like they're really good interpersonally especially when you have like medical students like ogilvy where i'm like oh my gosh even when he like tells whitaker oh louie croaked oh my gosh no they're the nurses that are like understanding the push and pull dynamics emotionally did you guys hear about louie yeah a chronic alcoholic go figure hey uh fento d in south 20 is ready for discharge but could you get lupe to call him a ride i need to check on louis uh actually whitaker he croaked what five minutes ago robbie called it because they're teaching residents that more than just patient care they're teaching them about empathy yeah about bedside manner and like the minute ogilvy says that and then perla and tagalog is like fucking you guy yeah yeah that was a really good on it i was like yeah because we were all feeling the same way too i mean i was like uh ogilvy you don't know what you're talking about this is louis there's a fun fun i mean there's there's many little quick medical moments that i really like in this episode one line again charge nurse dana she's so fast when they have those pastries and it seems that like administration sent them down yeah and there's always comments about frustration you know about again like we are burned out they are not getting a staffing they're not doing anything but they're giving us food yeah what She do like blood money donuts or something? She admin blood pastries. Yeah. Which is awesome. Every single one of them can forget about extra shifts. Won't hire more nurses. Won't pay us a decent wage. Won't hire security that can actually protect us from patients, but absolutely send donuts. Sure you want to go into this line of work? I'm going to get you one. Of course I do, but I'm not taking admin's blood pastries. A two-tonning? Usually the joke is about pizza parties. I think that's like a corporate burnout joke where they're like, oh, hey, you know, everyone's burned out. We can't afford rent, but C-Suite bought us pizza. Yeah. I honestly think hospitals stopped buying so much pizza, especially around the pandemic, because of how much people made fun of it on social media. Straight up. No, you could be right. That's very astute. Yeah. People were just like, I don't we don't need a pizza party. Like during during Nurses Appreciation Week, nurses are like, wait, we can't pay for parking. We're burned out. We don't have support staff. Please do not buy us more pizza. Right. Yeah. Pizza over support staff is crazy. Yeah. Or admin blood pastries. I'm going to open up a donut shop called admin blood pastries. you know, I'm a Nurse Dana fan. Like, I write for her like no one else. We got to talk to Catherine Lanasa, who plays Nurse Dana, and also Patrick Ball, who plays Dr. Langdon. I just immediately wanted to salute how incredible they are in the show. They're acting. But in my mind, I was like, you got Dr. Langdon, heroic senior resident, goes through a struggle, end of season one, comes back season two. What is that like for the character? And then with Catherine, I wanted to be like every single nurse I work with salutes you and how you portray Charger and Staina. And even non-nurses like myself. You look good, kid. How are you feeling? Oh, yeah. Great. You know, it's been a... It's been a journey. I bet. Thanks. Robbie, you're on? He's in with the trauma, but if you hurry back, you can catch some of the pass-ons there in Norton. Thanks. I'll keep an eye on him. Patrick, we want to start with you. Langdon starts season two on the outs after having a deal with his drug use and goes to rehab. How do you think he approaches reintegrating back into the team? I think it's probably a pretty scary day. I think he's been away for 10 months. I think last we saw him, he said some pretty desperate things to his mentor, Robbie, who I think is very important to him and has been probably one of his closest relationships in his life. and I think that relationship has been greatly damaged. I think over the last 10 months, he has gone through rehab and has probably had to do some soul searching that he hasn't previously had to do and he's probably been at home with his wife and two kids and had to be present as a father and a husband in a way that he has not. And I think he's also been, you know, parked. he's been stopped i think there there's an inertia to to being in the pit of just moving fast and always jumping on the next grenade and he there's a rhythm to that and he is not on that rhythm and uh he's coming back in and i think it probably feels a little bit like jumping on a moving train a lot of moving parts katherine i tell you i work with a lot of nurses and charge nurse dana is like a crowd favorite. Thank you. Because you come across as like, Charged Nurse Dana is running the ER, but then it also is like mother hen, like part badass, part burned out healthcare professional. Then there's compassion in there that we see in the bedside and with colleagues. But we know that Charged Nurse Dana is also human. And in this episode, in the very beginning, starting to kind of express in this experience with the assault. How is Charged Nurse Dana processing it? What's going through her mind? I don't think she's processing anything very well. Like I had a little story that I made up for myself, which was that she was kind of white knuckling it after the punch. And, you know, she decided not to press charges. It's the story that we'll find out. One of her daughters was like, you know, this isn't really working for you. Maybe you need to get some therapy. And so in my mind, she's did a little bit of like group therapy. You know, her mother died when she was 16 is the back story on her. And that's around when she started volunteering at the hospital. So I think she's kind of run away from her own grief her whole life. So I think the punch was really significant in that way. And I think we're going to see, I think I made up that she did that and that she probably did some self-defense so that she could feel a little empowered. It just was what came into my imagination. but I think we're going to see someone that is really still not that well knit together, you know, when any type of violence comes up in the ER, any type of aggression comes up. You'll see a Dana that's responding to that in a different way. I think that, you know, there's a Robert Creeley poem, a North Carolina poet actually, that says, you know, something like never deny the people in their place. It's just like that's the whole poem, but there's something about taking people out of their place that's very humiliating, you know? And I think that's a place where she felt a lot of pride. She probably lifts her whole family up with that job. And, you know, it's a hospital in her town, and here she is running this big part of it, you know? And I think it was a really big deal, very significant. Can you talk to us a little bit about the dynamic between both of your characters? Because at this point in the season, we see Turchiners Dana kind of tell Robbie, hey, either you're, like, icing him out or you're letting him back in, you need to make up your mind. How do you think she feels about Langdon coming back? And how does he, does he see her as like a supporter of his? I think that, you know, I have a child around Patrick's age and I have a younger child as well. You know, I think Dana is a wise old mother that has seen a lot, you know, and kids mess up. You know, Dr. Robbie doesn't have any kids. You know, his one steps on. You know, he doesn't really know the journey that you take with children as they become young adults. Some of them, you know, go astray and they mess up. And I think Dana believes in redemption. I think she really believes in this kid. I definitely felt a sense of disappointment in him. I mean, I really felt heartbroken. But I think when you're a mother, you know not to take this stuff personally that, you know, that people screw up. And so I think she wants Robbie to give him a second chance. You know, give him a second chance or fire him. You know, let him go somewhere else. But this is torture. It's torture. And from your side, how do you see Dana? Yeah, I mean, I think Dana is a pillar for Langdon. and I think she always has been. I think she's a pillar for everyone in PTMC. And I think also she's like a friend. She's like a close, close friend and somebody that Langdon depends on frequently. And I think when he comes back after this time away I think it can be difficult to look someone like that in the eye There a lot of shame there There's a lot of guilt about having let a mother of sorts down like that. And to have everyone around you know that you are not okay. I think there's a lot of guilt there and I think it can be difficult to come back with the same familiarity. But I think also you walk in the door and you realize, oh, actually maybe Dana isn't just a care machine that is just here to take care of me and make me feel better. feel better. And maybe because of the work that I've been, that Langdon has been doing over the last 10 months, he maybe sees Dana, uh, in a different way and sees like, oh, she's actually not just here to make me feel better. She actually, uh, is struggling in a way that, that might be new or maybe I didn't notice before. But I think he is confronted with the fact that this cycle of care is a two-way street in a way that feels new. You know, at the start of season two, the first episode, people are thinking, you know, Langdon kind of had to take a step away, season one. Also, Dana may be retiring. She's burned out. We see Langdon chilling with the penguins hat and the way in triage coming in. And obviously Nurse Dana did not step away at all. What do you think it was like for Chargers Dana and Blankton to be away from the ER for that period of time? What was missing? I think for Dana, it's something that she knows that she does well. You know, I've talked to a lot of ED nurses, and that is usually the thing, is that they felt like they could do it better than somebody else. The one in Pittsburgh, the charge nurse at Allegheny told me that her mother was dying and she saw those nurses and she thought, I can do this better. I know what's needed here. And she went to nursing school and became a nurse through that experience. So I just think it's definitely a calling. And I think there's really nothing like feeling really competent and useful at something. and I think if you have that one thing that you do, you step away from it, you kind of have a loss of a sense of self, right, or a loss of purpose. So I think, you know, returning was really the only way to get that back. Yeah, I think well said and I think Langdon's the same way. I think he derives a lot of identity out of being first to arrive, last to leave. I'm going to work harder. I'm going to move faster than anyone. And I think that has covered a void that has been covering a wound. You know, I think there's probably a lack of self-trust there and a feeling of uselessness that is constantly being defended against by being like, I know that I'm being useful right now. I know that I am helping others. I loved that moment of Catherine saying that, you know, she in real life has a child around Patrick's age, but that maybe because Narcena is a mother, she feels a little bit more, it's easier for her to forgive. She's used to people, you know, kids making mistakes and kind of forgiving them and moving on in a way that Robbie might not be. I thought that was like pretty astute. But it's also interesting to kind of try to get inside Patrick Ball's head about like, what is the trajectory of Dr. Lange going to be? What is the sense of identity as a doctor going through this, but then also as a husband and a father? There's so much swirling around in his world. For Outside the Pit this week, let's talk to someone with some inside information. Let's hear from executive story editor Valerie Chu, who wrote this week's episode. Super excited for this one. Okay, Valerie, you're an executive story editor on The Pit. Thank you for being with us today, because I have so many questions about writing for a show like this. Okay. First, like, what were the earliest conversations like in the room about breaking season two, and, like, where we pick up the story and these characters again? Yeah, I think, you know, season one had a slightly different process in terms of character development, because Scott Gemmel already came in with extremely fleshed-out characters. He, Noah describes it as like he, when he pitched the show, he pitched these characters as though they were people in his life. And so we had an amazing groundwork for season one because he had all these ideas for their arcs, for the tent poles, like the mass casualty. So going into season two, it was a bit of a clean slate. We were trying to figure out, you know, how much time should elapse. I think we liked the idea of 10 months because it allowed our characters, since we cannot do traditional character arcs in a show that's in real time, it allowed us to give a little more juice in terms of like where the characters have grown since season one. So that was sort of the easiest decision, I would say, in terms of how much time has elapsed. But in terms of character stories and arcs, it was sort of figuring out how to not try to outdo ourselves, but stick to the character, stick to the things that we had already planted in season one. I'm trying to get into specifics here. Like, we knew that we wanted Mel to sort of have a harder day. I think we did have kind of more time to talk as a room about the characters in a way that in season one, it was sort of more fleshed out before the writer's room came into it. Cool. Now, speaking of character development, I mean, Hunter and I will sit and just deep dive in what we think is happening with characters behind the scenes. But I'd love to ask you, this episode, big moment with Langdon and Chargers Dana. And I would love to hear from you as a writer who was kind of putting this together. What did you want the audience to see there? There's like friendship. There's laying to worry about betrayal. There's this, am I upsetting my mentor, my motherly figure? What did you want the viewers to see? Well, it was sort of born out of the idea that I feel like this is a nurse-centric episode. And as we developed this episode, it sort of became more clear that it was a Dana episode. We don't do that on this show. We don't highlight specific characters episode to episode. And this was a unique opportunity because we were trying to go through the nurse lens to kind of highlight Dana. And so it was kind of twofold. On one hand, I wanted to show how she really is the mother hen of this group. And on the other hand, it felt like after six hours, we haven't really gotten a sense of Langdon's last 10 months. You know, a lot of beginning of seasons tend to be set up and, you know, you're not going to lift back the curtain right away. But once Langdon is six hours in, like, who is that person he's going to talk to? Who's that confidant? And how is his confidence flagging six hours in when he's sort of feeling insecure about being back at work? And then the other thing was, like, we tend to kind of look back at season one and the seeds that were planted. So when I wrote that scene, I kept going back to the beautiful scene that Scott wrote in the finale of season one. And it's in that exact same kitchen space between Dana and Langdon. And it's when he's telling her he's trying to suss out what she knows, whether she's heard about him stealing the meds. And even just the blocking, Noah and I talked about like having that same sort of like him leaning over at the sink as she's trying to make coffee. Just this idea that 10 months later, these characters, they haven't talked to each other, but there's still kind of that closeness because they've known each other for so long. And so I felt like it sort of served two purposes. We got to know a bit more about Langdon and, like, who is that person he's going to open up to in the ER. But also we get to see Dana in her finest moments. And also another peek behind the curtain in terms of where she is with her PTSD. Like, in that scene, he asked her, like, he didn't know what happened after that day in terms of the guy who punched her, the patient who punched her. So he asked her, like, whatever happened? And that was sort of a way of, like, not, I wouldn't go as far as to say re-triggering her, but it's a way to sort of remind the audience that, like, this was kind of a hard decision. And Catherine made a beautiful acting choice to sort of, like, look away from him when he asked that question. And you can tell she's just sort of like putting on this like straight face because she doesn't want to think about it. They ever, uh, arrest that guy who punched you? Yeah. I wanted to know if I wanted to press charges, but I didn't want to go through all that. Thought I was done. Really did, but I got bored of him, so. When we talked to Scott and John earlier this season, they described like character as the core of the show and then the medicine as the wallpaper. Yeah. And I want to know from you, like, how does that carry into a story like Louie's that is super character driven, but also like medically, you know, interesting as well? Oh, Louie. Yes. Yeah. That was a big debate in the room. I was in the beginning. We didn't know if we wanted to kill him off because I feel like on this show, what I love about our process is that we're never doing anything for dramatic purposes or for like, you know, I often talk about gratuitous television. if it's like overly sexual or overly, you know, like if things are sensationalized just for the purpose of dramatic storytelling. So we didn't want to just throw in a death for no reason. And there was a big debate about whether he should die. And I was on the side of no. But I think it sort of dovetailed nicely with the fact that this was a nurse episode. And I spoke to a lot of nurses for this episode who talked about what it is like for those unhoused patients who come in. The nurse that I spoke to, whom I love so much, she's the charge nurse. Catherine, you know, has sort of shadowed her and gotten advice from her, but she works at L.A. County down by USC. And she talked about how, you know, you see these people every day, but it just sort of feels like run-of-the-mill, and you're taking care of them. Sometimes they just, like, keep coming in. But then, like, when someone dies, like, it really does affect you in a way that you didn't expect. You just expect that person to always be there. Again, going back to the idea that we knew the nurse was going to be the centerpiece of the episode. And how can we sort of show that you know they are the ones who are with these frequent flyers these unhoused folks day to day They the ones who are you know checking in on them They the ones contacting family trying their hardest to find anyone who might have known this person would care about their passing. And I think it was one of those things we sort of stumbled in, like those happy accidents that happened creatively. I can't say that it was necessarily planned, but it ended up working out really well because you see how every nurse is affected by their passing. And then just this idea that I really loved, you know, we tried to kind of set up the mystery of who was this person. We've seen them every day or every other day or frequently for the last few years, and we don't know who they are. And then you find out at the end of the episode that Robbie, you know, during one busy, one slow night, got the whole story. And it was very much in line with the actor's journey. His name is Ernest, the actor who plays Louis. He didn't know that he was going to die. And then when he found out, he was understandably really upset because he felt like, wait, this character hasn't, we don't know who this is. We, we haven't like gotten a backstory or anything. And then the story goes that he read the script and he went up to Noah and he was just like tears in his eyes, like so moved because now Robbie gets to tell his story in that eulogy. And it sort of goes hand in hand with how I assume like for a lot of the patients, you might find out about their life when their family comes in and tells you, but not until after you've treated them, not until after the fact. And I appreciated the way that we structured it so that we would find out about that later. Wow. The depth of the medical research and the fact that you mentioned you were talking to nurses to learn about characters and workflow and emotion just kind of speaks to what comes across on camera. Sometimes I watch a show and I'm like, Valerie obviously sat in on med school classes because of terminologies on point. But even like the fun nuances, like in this episode, admin blood pastries, hilarious quote by Charger Stena. Whitaker then says this amazing line where he's like, nurses run the ER, your best bet to stay out of their way. I just wanted to ask you, like getting the medical terminology correct, making sure the medical accuracy is there versus writing out characters. You mentioned that Dr. Sacks is like, we want characters first, but how does that process work for you? Well, I can speak to the blood pastry moment. So I actually, shortly after we started The Room on season one, I decided to start volunteering at the L.A. County USC Hospital. And my thought behind that was I don't have a medical background. I feel like a bit of a fraud writing a medical show when I haven't, you know, been in that profession. And I felt like the ER is a very uncomfortable place where really hard things happen. And if I'm not willing to sit in that discomfort, I don't know, personally, I just feel like a bit of a fraud. So I started volunteering there and just, I can't do much obviously, because I'm not like certified or anything, but just observing the space and seeing how people interacted and seeing the little moments of connection between each other, between patients and healthcare workers. The blood pastry idea was pulled from my experience there, there was a day where admin and, you know, like, obviously they have really good, like intentions, but, um, you can be real. Yes. Yes. So they, they, they sent down these, um, iced drinks for, I think it was nurses week. And I just saw the charge nurse, similar to how Dana reacts. So furious, refused to have any like coffee. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not taking that, like, just so angry about just even this gesture without, you know, all the other things that they, all the support that they lack in the ER. And so I kind of just took that for the story. And I thought it was really, I don't know, it also felt relevant to the statement we try to make in terms of like, you know, there are these gestures that are made, but not real changes that are and support that's given to the healthcare workers that really need a substantive, like, administrative change to kind of allow them to do what they're doing. I'm trying to think back to your question about approaching character. I mean, Scott always says, just let the characters guide you. And I think on this show, now that we've had, season one for me was a lot of figuring out how to write the show. I'd never written on a medical show and then kind of watching the actors do what they did on season one being able to hear their voice because when we started writing I think when I wrote my episode in season one we had not yet cast the show wow so it was hard to hear the voices in my head Scott obviously had that down because he knew them and had been developing them but I am somebody who I I actually hear the actor a lot better and it helps me write when I'm writing rather than just kind of, I know character traits and whatnot if I don't know who the actor is, but it's not the same. And so in season two, I felt like it was just more about listening to those voices, thinking about what we've already established, new angles in which we could see these characters. And, you know, there was a little bit of like, we did come into the room this season with more, I guess, agenda for the types of medical cases we wanted to see. But at the end of the day, like people are watching because they, they relate to these characters that Scott has created. And I think the challenge was just layering it where some people would have a more dramatic change over 15 hours. And some people would just be having a bad day. I mean, that was Whitaker's story for season one was there wasn't a big life change. He just had a really bad first day. It feels like a nose goes like who's going like just a really bad day today. Exactly, yes. Season two is Santos, so yeah. I gotta ask you, I don't know if you have one or 50 answers, but do you have like a really proud moment in this episode? Favorite moment? Favorite moment? I can tell you what moment made me cry. I don't really cry on set when I'm watching. I have this awareness that it's like we're filming and we're on set. When she, when Catherine is wiping down Louis' body. These frequent flyers, they can be a real pain in the ass, but you miss them when they're gone. Like, she just delivered that in such a way. I think it was the combination of her humanity cleaning up the body and also just, you know, you see that she's lived through through so much with this patient. And you see how, like, those tiny moments of humanity from Dana, we talked a lot in the room about how her exterior and her toughness is almost like she's calcified this season, but then you get little peaks of light coming through. And this is one of those moments. So the layers that Catherine was able to play in that scene and then seeing Leticia, who plays Emma, her vulnerability and her shock of like she's probably seen you know this she's seen people die but like the intimacy of cleaning a dead body and like them addressing that in the scene the combination of that just it moved me to tears in a way that I that doesn't happen often and I remember Noah called cut he turned around looked at me and he was you know quipping that he was just he was amused that I was that I was crying like in a good way um that you know the power of like his direction and Catherine's performance and Leticia's performance had like had this emotional impact on me so that moment was really great and then just seeing you know just seeing more of our nurses seeing more of um Perla her emotional response um giving more to Kristen who plays princess. Um, I think I'm just proud that the idea of having a nurse episode was Scott's idea. And we just really didn't know what that would look like. It, it, it was quite challenging, honestly, to kind of figure out how to shift that perspective because we had done so many hours from the doctor's point of view. And also the challenge was how to serve our regulars and not take away from them while also highlighting nurses. So it was probably, I would say, our toughest episode to break because we had to kind of flip the script and like think outside of the box. We hadn't done an episode from their perspective. But I'm just proud of the way that it came together and that, you know, we get to see the little in-betweens. We get to see these moments of patient care, which is really one of the many things that nurses do so well. Valerie, thank you so much for talking through this episode. Thank you guys. I'm like, I'm inspired. I hope all the future college writers you talk to are also inspired. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Thanks for creating this masterpiece. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I was like lost in listening to Valerie's thought process. Like I have experience in writing scripts for news and documentaries and science-based stories. But like hearing how Valerie like wrote the characters while maintaining the medical integrity, but with this attention to emotional detail, incredible. Yeah. I mean, also TV writing is super collaborative. And I liked how she was talking about breaking story across character, across all these different medical cases and how so much stuff is like reflected from the writing of Scott and John. You mentioned her process, her thought process, and I can envision Valerie walking in circles in her writing space and with papers all over the ground and being like, how does Santos handle the situation? And specifically, what is Langdon going to do with charging her stay in it? And then it just comes this act of brilliance and we see it on camera. I think you're describing the Pelican Brief. It's some sort of Alan Pakula sort of conspiracy. It's very tense and stressful. I'm just hoping that there's a generation of writers who are like inspired now. That's it for today's episode of The Pit Podcast. We'll be here every Thursday right after new episodes drop. And before we go, we want to hear from you, Pit fans. So leave us a question, a comment, and maybe we'll address it on a future episode. You can watch us on HBO Max or listen wherever you get your podcasts. The Pit Podcast is a production of HBO Max in collaboration with PRX. Executive producer of PRX is Jocelyn Gonzalez. Our managing producer is Courtney Florentine. Our editor is Lucy Perkins. Our production managers are Edwin Ochoa and Tony Carlson. Our video producer and editor is Anthony Q. Artis with assistant editor Damon Durrell Hinson. This show is engineered by Tommy Bazarian. Special thanks to Joe Carlino. The executive producer of HBO Podcasts is Michael Gluckstadt. The senior producer is Alison Cohen-Sorokach. And the associate producer is Aaron Kelly. Technical director is In Sung Kwong. I'm Alok Patel. And I'm Hunter Harris. We'll see you next week in the pit.