Sunday Special: Wicked, Good?

I'm Kevin Russe. I'm Casey Newton and we're the hosts of Hard Fork, a show from the New York Times about technology in the future. About the future that's already here, Kevin, every week on the show we bring you news from the front lines of tech, interviews with key news makers, wacky experiments that we get up to and we just generally have a lot of fun. Yes, so whether you're curious about developments in AI or just what's happening on TikTok, we are here for you. So that's Hard Fork. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Sunday Special, I'm Gilbert Cruz. Wicked is back. Wicked for good has just been released. This is film number two. The first movie, simply titled Wicked, came out almost exactly one year ago today. And Wicked for good is going to be one of the biggest films of the year. Being me to talk about it is Kyle Buchanan, who covers Hollywood for the Times and who recently profiled Ariana Grande, one of the stars of the film. Hello Kyle. Hello Guilder. And Madison Malone Kertcher, who covers internet culture for the Times, but more importantly for the purposes of this conversation is an Azean. She is a wicked enthusiast. Yeah, we'll go with that. Hello Madison. I'm thrilled to be here. We're going to try not to spoil too much of this movie, but we are going to talk about some specific scenes. So if you're the type of person for which that is important, keep that in mind. All right, to get started, I think listeners should have a sense from all of us of where we stand, wicked wise in relation to Wicked, how Wicked fight are we, how Wicked piled are we. I've never seen the Broadway show, but I've seen the first movie several times. I enjoyed it. Saw the second movie. Listen to the music. Kyle, we're going to start with you. What's your relationship to Wicked? You know, I came to Wicked as something of a virgin. I had never seen it on stage, which made me feel like a little bit of an aberration, but I actually think that gave me a very sort of clean perspective on the movie project itself. And also, this may well be how people come to Wicked in the future because the movies are such a phenomenon that I think a lot of people and future generations will experience this as a movie first situation. Madison, you are slightly... Perhaps slightly more or less green, I guess, in this particular... You're a little different from Kyle here. You were familiar with the musical. I am familiar with the musical. I have seen it on the Broadway. When Wicked returned after the pandemic shut down, deep in the pandemic, my little sister called me and said, we have to be there the first night. We like Wicked, but this is not like a musical that we have a deep, long, sisterly tradition of. And I said, why? And she goes, the first line, Glinda comes down from the bubble and says, it's good to see me, isn't it? And my sister said, the crowd is going to go nuts. It will cure the depression we've been sunk into for years. And she was right. She was really right. Being there that night was for lack of a better word, magical. Was that the first time that you had seen it? I had seen it in Chicago of all places. And also I grew up as a young millennial musical theater geek with blonde hair and a gentle curl as it were. So what I'm saying is I did sing for good at my eighth grade graduation with a girl like literally never saw again after that day. I think this was a formative experience for many. Some people come into your life for a reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's because they can also like hold a pitch. Before these movies came out, would you say that this was something that you had ever been interested in seeing a film version of? I mean, Ben interested. I don't know how closely you followed the production of Wicked the film. It took decades. Is that right? Yeah, very long time. It was sort of like Lucy and the football for many of us online. It was like, Wicked movie is coming. Wicked movie is coming. You know, I was working in entertainment journalism. You'd get dribs and drabs of announcements. And we'd all sort of be like, yeah, OK. Sure. See you when I see you. So yeah, it was exciting to finally see it become made manifest. So now that we've established where each of us stand, I want to sort of focus on these two movies for a bit. You know, the team behind this decided to split the story into two separate films. Essentially, Wicked is act one, Wicked for good is act two. This was a choice that, you know, in the lead up to the release of the first film last year, a lot of people were talking smack about. They were like, why are we doing this? This is a musical in which you're going to have a second movie full of lackluster songs in which there's not a ton of plot. The first film, however, was an undeniable success. It was financially successful, culturally dominant, somewhat critically successful. It was nominated for best picture. What? What are you staring at? Which I still think is crazy. The first movie, just to remind people it's about Elphaba. She becomes a Wicked Witch of the West. You're green. You have Glinda, who becomes the good witch. Oh, God, she's so good. We love you. Takes you through their school years where they go to Shiz University, which is... I'll say it like a question. A name they should have chased for the movie. Elphaba. You can room with Miss Galinda. They form this unlikely friendship and the movie ends with arguably the musical's biggest hit, which is Define Gravity. There's no fight we cannot win. Just you and I defying gravity. Kyle, you've spoken to members of the cast and the crew over the past couple years. Did these two films always feel like they were going to be a success? I think people hoped that they would be, but there was enough precedent to suggest that they wouldn't. I mean, when you look at the really big musical theater phenomenon that have come out on film, something like, you know, Les Miserables or Phantom of the Opera, they couldn't quite translate that gigantic, overwhelming enthusiasm to, you know, big Bafo box office scores. And then you had, you know, outright bombs like, do you have enhancements or cats that maybe did a little bit of damage to the actual, you know, brand on stage. So it was not a done deal at all that Wicked would be a success. And in fact, I think that's why it took so long to get off the ground. Yeah. It's interesting to think about that because movie musicals, since the invention of sound have been one of the mainstays of sort of big Hollywood productions. They've obviously gone through peaks and dips. You had, you know, you had the phase where we're making Dr. Doe little and stuff like that in the late 60s and that was pretty awful. You talk about Les Miserables. I think we were both working at Vulture at the time. I was so excited because I love Les Miserables. And I think within the first 15 minutes, I was like, this is going to be rough going. Stars in their multitudes. Russell Crowe is a great actor. He should not have been in that movie. And yet, Wicked Part One was a great success. And I think that's in part not just because of the film, but also because of the lead up to the release. I think we've all observed how the way that actors and stars do the press circuit now is as entertaining sometimes as the film itself. And Ariana and Cynthia were on what seemed like a 32 month press tour. It just lasted forever. And Madison, you observed so much for this one. As the chronically online person in the room, yes, the pink and green blur that was the press tour for Wicked Part One. Ariana and Cynthia were everywhere. And notably, they were everywhere together. This is a film about sisterhood, which apparently means you can never leave each other's side. They are everywhere. They're constantly in costume adjacent dress, like, lest you forget. Like, I am green and she is pink, which is which you could not forget. You could not escape it. I think perhaps the biggest and most viral moment, though, that breaks out of this particular press circuit is. And I will now... Kyle, can I have your finger? I'm delicately clutching Kyle's picture finger. The moment in which the phrase, holding space for defying gravity enters the digital lexicon. It was a... What should have been just an incredibly, potentially, incredibly mundane press junk at interview? This week, people are taking the lyrics of defying gravity and really holding space with that. An interviewer named Tracee Go Cress asked arguably just an insane question about people online, running space for the lyrics of defying gravity. Ariana and Cynthia are incredibly consummate professional polite, but you can tell behind their eyes they're going, what is this person asking us about? I can't remember which one of them says it, but they're like, oh, I didn't know that was happening. It was Cynthia. I know that. I didn't know that was happening. I've seen it on a couple posts. I don't know how widespread, but, you know, I am in queer media, so... Yeah, that's right. And it goes on to become this moment. Brands co-opted. It comes in meme. This phrase transcends the film in the way that marketers sit in a room and go, okay, how can we figure out how to have an old and space moment? Like, it was one of those. The sort of thing you cannot fake. I have to say, it must have been amazing for Ariana Grande and Cynthia Rivo, because you're asked the same questions over and over. You're some variation of the same questions. And then, for this one magical moment, they have no idea what's going on. They really have to respond in real time. I also think that Ariana and Cynthia, you know, they have this ability on screen and certainly when they sing to sort of match each other's frequency. They can also do that emotionally in real life, but certainly in this case, where nobody was quite sure what anyone was doing. And yet, the moment continued to heightened, heightened, heightened until it reached an absolutely absurd place. I don't know that anybody involved knows how they got there, but God bless them for doing it. That's so beautiful about it. There is still magic in the world is my reaction to that video. So we also wicked for good. And I would love to talk about it. Listeners, again, you've been warned. It's been 22 years since the musical came out. And about three days since the movie came out, we're going to talk about it. There's a bit of a time jump from the first film. Haven't you heard? I'm a wicked witch of the West. Alphaba has been officially branded the Wicked Witch of the West by The Wizard of Oz, played by Jeff Goldloom in this film and a Madame Morrible, played by Michelle Yo. The Wicked Witch can't endures forever. The two of them, there's still been Mean Tannables and Alphaba is still trying to free all the animals. Linda has been made like the propaganda face of this new administration here. It's more important than ever that you lift everyone's spirits. She's tasked with wearing a lot of pink, lifting the spirits of the people of Oz, but the thing is she still loves her friend and she still wants the best for her. Alphaba, they're coming for you. There's a lot of other stuff that goes on. The film is darker than the first one. There's a lot of not very subtle political undertones. Let's talk about it. Madison, you, as we establish, are the biggest fan of Wicked in the entire New York Times building. What is your understanding of the difficulties of adapting essentially the second act of the show to its own film? Notably act one ends on the highest note in the show, right? It ends on that riff and defying gravity. There's quite literal hype to it. There's an immediate crash that follows on the second act of the show is fairly thin. Both in terms of content, there's not a ton of plot left to happen. The big twists don't come until the last ten minutes or so. There aren't that many songs. Quite literally, there just aren't that many numbers. Frankly, I'm so sorry to anyone out here who's in this for the wizard, but wonderful, sentimental man reprise. These are the songs that we, the musical theater, Gurley's skip. You don't like the guys. Yeah, obviously. No one is watching Wicked for the men. Okay. Well, apologies to people magazine. I suppose. That Jonathan Bailey. That is sexiest man of life. But it's very thin. There's not a ton of plot. A lot of it exists simply to tie in the world that Gregor McGuire, the author of the book, has built around the existing Wizard of Oz IP. So, you know, the Yellowberg Road, Dorothy Gale, the entire story you know. And love so much happened before the house dropped in. Like, mostly the second act exists to tile those things together and make you go, oh, and then you get for good and we all cry. That's a really good song. But it's interesting too because as somebody who came to this material very fresh and with a cynical eye of, oh, are they really splitting it into for maximum profit. When I watched the first movie, I was surprised at how complete it felt. Agreed. It felt to me as though all of the real questions of this property were answered by the end. I know why she became the wicked witch. So I sort of wondered to myself, what more terrain is there to cover in the second movie. And I think having seen it, the answer is it doesn't feel necessarily like a complete and urgent movie in the way that the first one does. But I do think it works as sort of an extended coda with these characters. If you like spending time with these two in the first movie, well, here you go. Here's two hours more that you can have to wrap up that experience. I do think like even if it doesn't feel like this film has the same stakes as the original, that people, that audiences will appreciate that extended time that they get with Cynthia and Ariana. Yeah. And as someone who again wrote about Ariana for the times, it seems like a lot of this film was really predicated on her character, her character arc, her performance. How was your understanding of what she and the director, John Chu, sort of tried to do with Linda? Yeah, even when John decided to split these movies into two, the first script he printed on green pages and the second one he printed on pink, you know, just to sort of indicate that the second film in a lot of ways, the arc is Glinda's or at least the most interesting conflict here. Yeah. You know, Glinda has sort of bought into this fascist ideal that the wizard is espousing because it means that she gets to wear a lot of pretty pink dresses and be famous. But within that gilded life, within that bubble, she's dying inside. She doesn't have access to her friends. Everybody's kind of turning on her and she has to keep espousing these lies. And I think Ariana plays this really well, you know, I think all of Cynthia's highlights, at least the major parts of that performance that everyone will remember are in the first movie. And a lot of the really strong dramatic material that Ariana gets is in the second one. Madison, what did you think of the film? Herendable. That is extreme. Herendable. Hideo Deus. I'm running out of Ozzy and Slank from my memory. I didn't love it. It just felt thin. And I agree to your point about the first film feeling just beautifully composed. I went into that movie with very high expectations and I left having them met if not exceeded. I was deeply impressed with Ariana Grande, who was giving Doris Day. If she wore a highlighter from Pat McGrath, just genuinely was very impressed by both of those performances and the film. And left thinking, okay, let's see what they got for part two. The new songs didn't do a ton for me. There's not a ton of... There are two new songs. There are two new songs, one of which is called The Girl in the Bubble. It's incredibly heavy. And it... It all but stopped short of having Ariana, you know, poked the bubble in the end. You're saying a musical theater song is heavy, huh? You know, there's some room for subtlety. Uh-huh. Isn't it a time where her bubble... to pop? There simply isn't enough plot to sustain it. And also by nature of the politics of the world we're living in right now, so many of the undertones just feel I've already used heavy-handed ham-fisted. They just... It's... There's no magic. There's only drudgery. Yeah. I agree with you that some of it does feel heavy-handed, the sort of the present-day resonance is. But the original book, and by virtue of that, the original musical, that stuff is baked into there as well. When Greg Irwin McGuire wrote this in 1995, when the musical came out around the time of the Iraq War, you know, it was sort of a different idea of who's in power and what are the messages that they were giving us and who are the people that are spreading what some consider to be propaganda. And that comes down to the difference between a 45-minute second act and a two-hour-and-eighteen-minute second act. Yeah. Because at a certain point you're just saying the same thing over and over again. So many banners in this movie. So many banners. And they're budget. Every scene is like, here's new banners from the sky. They're all saying the wicked witch's pants. At a certain point, we got it. I want to push back on something though, which is, you know, you're criticizing the heavy-handedness of the fascist message and the metaphors. But I don't think they worked on our dear friend Gilbert Cruz because Gilbert is very anti-animal after having watched the wicked movies. This is Gilbert does not want those animals to have rights. This is totally unnecessary to what's here. Gilbert. I love animals. Uh-huh. Prove it. You just don't want to listen to what they have to say. I just, I don't know that predicating alphabuzz entire journey on wanting to advocate for animal rights is the strongest or most convincing motivation for a character. Animals are great. I don't want to hear them talk. I don't know. Let's just, do we care this much about the animals of us? What is the animal system? We see one animal who's a teacher, not a very good teacher as far as I could tell. And that is what we're supposed to base our entire love of this animal underclass on. I'm just imagining Gilbert going to rate my teacher dot com and looking at Dr. Diliment. I do not understand the animal hierarchy in us. Neither do I understand. As you recall. At one point during this movie, I'm taking notes in a notebook, like, you know, a good little journalist and a Gilbert just shoulders me like elbows me in the shoulder and takes my pen and scribbles in his hand. We get to the end of the film and I'm like Gilbert, what? Well, it is the only note you took the entire movie. Yeah. What'd you write down? I wrote down what is Oz's political system? The entire first half of the movie I was like, so is the, is the wizard a dictator? Where's the government? I understand there's this council of governors and Nessa Rose is a munching governor, but canonically, munchkin city also has a mayor. Like that's the source text. So I agree. You see my confusion? Yeah, no, I agree. Okay. She's green. Just go with it. I'm you're right. You're right. I'm thinking too much about it. All that being said, there's some pretty great highs of this. I've found for good quite emotionally moving. There's a scene towards the end where they are in the tower and Elphaba puts Linda behind a door and says, you have to hide here. The door, she puts her deposit. Dorothy is coming. Take the book, hide here. There's a split screen and the two of them are on opposite sides of the door for quite a long time. And I just like these two love each other so much when are they going to kiss and they never did. That's something that they arrived in rehearsals according to John Chu. Really? When they were just simply rehearsing it before, I think they'd even gotten to London where they shot this film. Ariana and Cynthia were singing that song and then essentially mime the door. So their relationship, their bond is what informed the staging of that movie ultimately. Yeah. Madison, what are the scenes that stuck with you? Good or bad? Well, we have to talk about the cardigan and the shoulder. Okay. Well, there's a slightly racy scene for PG Movie, I feel like, in this film. Kiss me too fiercely. Which is a fiero who's played by Jonathan Bailey. The man people are coming to see Wicked for My Sincereous, the sexiest man alive. He is a glindest fiancé, but since the first film, he has been in love with Elphaba. He is the head of essentially the Wizard's Royal Guard at this point in the story, but he makes a decision to flee with Elphaba. They go to her tree house in the woods and they have a love scene. And Elphaba takes off her robe, which I was wondering is she just going to wear this the whole movie, the she ever bathed, like what's going on. And she puts on a very ratty looking gray sweater. And there's a lot of shoulder action. Rattie chic. Rattie chic. It's this long coat sweater that looks like it's from a costuming plot, from a like modernist take on cats. That is Grisabella's costume in some college production, a black box of cats. They don't have unique glow in a, not yet. Maybe post wizard. I was maybe I'm just a bit of a prude, but I was surprised at the heat that was generated in this scene. I was honestly surprised to get even just the amount of bear shoulders. The very strong implication that these two characters had slept together, it was a little bit of a relief to me. I thought, okay, they're not pussy-footing around this. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't think of the very last time that it was clear that two characters in a big tent pole movie had hooked up. I'm happy for them because he turns into a scarecrow at the end. At as far as I know, he has no genitals. Madison, what do you think audiences are going to walk away from this movie feeling good about? The moments in Wicked For Good that touched me are the ones that are these like intimate little moments between Ariana and Cynthia who do have this undeniable chemistry. And that is really the love story that this entire franchise is about, right? The relationship between these two women. And it's so clear, even it's easy to become cynical watching the never ending, green and pink, press tour, and feel that this is a little contripe. But there's this scene, it's actually in the trailer, where they're talking and Cynthia says something like, just look at me. Not with your eyes. But theirs. Look at me. Not with your eyes with theirs. And you can just like in these micro movements of her like perfectly little eyebrows, you can just the emotion that Ariana Grande is able to telegraph and the feeling she has towards Cynthia. And also towards Elphaba, this is a show that is deeply special and important to Ariana Grande and has been since she was a child. You can feel that sitting in your seat. And I think that is actually sort of a big takeaway that people will have not just from this second movie, but from both of these movies, which is Cynthia and Ariana are delivering something that is remarkably human-sized, given the epic scale of this project. And they're not afraid to play these characters very real and intimate and small when they need to, which I think makes the big moments feel even bigger. Yeah, it is the human moment. It's not the animal moment. That's my point. Like we don't be so. You're lucky right into that one. Humans are animals too. Well, do you own a pet? I have a dog and I love it very much. Tracks. What does that mean? I'm just saying someone who owns a pet, subjugating an animal. We treat that dog. Goddamn well, okay. You'll but I'm going to need to know your thoughts on Zootopia too. All right. All right. We are going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about why this franchise has done so well, it's continuing to do so well in what is by all accounts a pretty dark time for Hollywood. We'll be right back. I'm Robin and I am excited to open my cross-play app. I'm challenging John. My colleague at the New York Times. I played the word grunge, which has a G, which is four points. She got that triple word multiplier. I'm going to take facts and make it faxes for 30 points. I might just take another two letter word here with low, gets me at 23. I think this will put me back in the lead if my maps are mapping. I like to play it more from Mr. J. J. J. Point of view and see where I can block the other player from scoring high. I'm pretty competitive. It's fun to beat friends and co-workers and also get to learn new words. I think he thinks he has us in the bag, but I'm not so sure. All right. We're going to talk about Hollywood right now. Hollywood has not been doing great this fall. I don't think that's a secret. The industry, I think, has been struggling to get people into theaters for years now, certainly since the pandemic. And we have seen the past few months as trend of movies with the world. The past few months as trend of movies with people who at least used to be regarded as movie stars really sort of bombing at the box office. You're not not making a dent in any way. I think I saw the stat that if you adjust for inflation, which we always must do, I really don't understand what that means. And exclude 2020 because of the pandemic. This October's box office is only one month, but this October's box office was the lowest monthly total on record ever. I'd love for you to talk through what is happening in Hollywood right now. And we're just wicked fitted. It's been rough, man. Like you said, yeah, a lot of these films have been underperforming no matter the star power. There's a really lovely Channing Tatum Kirsten Dunstrom, what he called Roofman that came out that I think back in the day, what it made, at least $60, $70 million, would have been a word of mouth hit. And people just simply didn't go. There are success stories this year. You know, you have sinners, one battle after another, weapons. But in two of those three cases, what sinners and one battle did very effectively, in addition to just being good movies, is they felt like events. They felt like you have to see it in this premium format. And if you don't see sinners in I'm act 70 or one battle after another in VistaVision, are you really doing it right, bro? Like you've got to go see it in the right format. And that creates the feeling of this actually is special. This is a particular thing that you ought to do. And a small movie can feel like an event, but you've got to make sure that people feel if I don't see this, I won't be part of the cultural conversation, that it will move past me. So there's stakes to going to the film. And Wicked has that. You know that the cultural conversation is going to be about Wicked during these few weeks. So you've got to go at some point. One of the other things that a movie can have to state the obvious, is a connection to IP, which is a phrase we've used, intellectual property, franchises, pre-existing sort of already baked. Law. Law or names that sort of do half the work already to getting people in theaters. Wicked is based on a very long chain of IP. It was never called IP back then, but you have a book that came out in 1900, and then you had a movie musical that came out in 1939. Still one of the most famous American movies ever made, The Wizard of Oz. And then you have this book in 1995 by Gregory McGuire. You have this musical in 2003, and now you have these two movies. Kyle, I'm wondering how much of the success of these two films you attribute to the fact that this is, you know, at least in America, sort of a story that's been around for so long, and this is a part of it. The OZIP. Exactly. You know, this is an interesting test case, because obviously I think that when we grew up and I would wager most of the listeners, The Wizard of Oz was ubiquitous. You would always see it on television. Everything's giving. It's a gross house. It is a Thanksgiving film. At least once a year for more than 30 years. Certainly felt like one of the top three most famous movies ever made. And probably one of the top three movies most watched. You could pretty much count on anybody you met having watched that movie at some point. I'm not sure that that is true of the generation that is coming up. What a 10-year-old have seen The Wizard of Oz as many times as we would have by 10. Or what a 10-year-old have seen it at all. You know, they're not watching movies that are ubiquitous on TV, because they're more prone to watch a Roblox playthrough on YouTube. So I don't know that. You just really depressed me. Well, I'm saying that this might be an interesting case of the tail wagging the dog in the future that people will be coming to The Wizard of Oz predominantly through Wicked, and not the other way around. And it's going to be particularly interesting because Wicked for Good, the second film, really relies on how well you know The Wizard of Oz, particularly the movie version of that, because the characters are getting into places a lot has implied. And I don't know if young kids today are going to get all those references. One thought just in terms of IP, yellow brick Roblox. I think this is the tie-in we've been looking for. I think that's right, but I also think there's a possibility where that makes Wicked for Good more enjoyable to those viewers, because I think if you have read the original book, you've seen the film a Gajillion Times, and you come to Wicked, the twists at the ending are quite obvious, right? It's not really a surprise. I was like, I saw that coming a mile away. But if you can't see it coming a mile away, I can imagine the ending of this film would be that much more satisfying if scratchy faced scarecrow man comes as a genuine surprise to you. Yeah. I guess I was surprised, and again, I have listened to the show, and I've seen scratchy bootleg. I guess I forgot how much the second act really ties into The Wizard of Oz, which is a film maybe like, maybe like you. I've seen dozens and dozens of times either in full or in part. And I just side note, if you are a parent and you have not shown your child, The Wizard of Oz already, shame on you, and you should do that immediately. It is one of the great things that this country has ever produced. How did your son react when you showed him? He loved it. Was that post-wicked? It was not post-wicked. I think we showed it to him. Did it scare him? Yes, there were a couple of parts. It's scary. It could be okay. The wicked Witch of the West in the 1939 musical is scary. There are lots of things that are weird about that movie and sort of offbeat, but it is beautiful and it is something that everyone should experience. So please show your children The Wizard of Oz, either before or after going to see this movie. This has been a public service announcement. So wicked for good, as we said, it's sort of pitched to be one of the top-grossing movies of the year. Kyle, I'm wondering what is missing in movies that this movie is providing to viewers, providing in the marketplace. It feels like it's sort of filling a hole that desperately wants to be filled in some way. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a really incredible contrast that can be drawn here. At a time when it's hard to get almost every demographic to the movies, you have one demographic, young girls, who will not just go to the movies, but will go over and over. That repeat audience is why wicked became such a phenomenon and you can trace that back to movies like Barbie, even all the way back to Titanic, that if women really like something as they do with K-pop demon hunters or Wednesday, they will watch it multiple times, they will discuss it with their friends, now they will make fan edits. The bounds of their fandom and obsession are ultimately very lucrative in a way where I'm not sure that we actually have enough product coming out to satisfy, probably the most loyal fan base there is, the most loyal demographic. So much of what we're seeing and what we're seeing not work is aimed at either young men or older audiences who simply aren't showing up. Then you have this slice of the demographic pie where they're not just showing up, they're showing up once, twice, three times, four times and bringing their friends. So what he's saying is could you hurry up with practical magic too? We're waiting, we're ready, I've got 22 bucks at nauseam. Practical magic too, you've got devil wears prodded too coming out. But then also let's make more properties that I think, you know, young women want to feel like they've stumbled upon these things themselves, that they are part of the ground floor in making these things a hit. Lady Bird. I think my mother's ears just perked up about an hour and a half away when she heard you say practical magic too. There's no one who's more excited for this film. It's a dollar to call me. Madison, I don't know if you would call yourself an Aussie, but you have been part of a subset of this fandom from the beginning before there was ever. I'm just trying not to claim like stolen green valor, but I think we've established that I am a long time fan. Okay, okay, I don't want to speak for you. What do you want to speak for the animals? No one should speak for the animals. What was the, can you tell us like what, what has the fandom for this been like? What was it like back when it was just on Broadway? Yeah, Wicked has always been an extremely online musical, because if you think about it, Wicked the novel, boil it down, it's fanfic, which is a deeply online genre. And it's also quite obviously a story about being other, whether that's as a queer person or a person of color or really anyone who has any experience of feeling not part of the in-group can watch the show and really connect to it. And those are the communities that historically congregate in online spaces, right? And that's chat rooms, forums, boards. So it makes perfect sense to me that this group of people with whom the show resonates, present company included, then found themselves looking for the community who was also feeling that resonance and we found it online. Broadway also for many is an online experience. If you don't live here, if you can't afford to see an exorbitantly expensive show, that leaves you with the internet. You said you watched a Scratchy-Boolegg. A lot of people experience Broadway online through, and I'm not suggesting anyone film a Broadway show while they're sitting in it. Do not do that. Do not do that. It's rude. But people have and people do. And so for many fans of this show getting to see it only happens through a camera that was snuck into a theater and then uploaded to YouTube. Okay, I am still new to this world. So what are some of the ways in which fans like serve and engage with each other over wicked? I mean, some of my favorite wicked rabbit holes are their entire compilations online. Knights were the flying mechanism didn't work. No flying lights, but Elphaba doesn't get off the ground. And so you just kind of got, you know, I did a mentality where ever standing in the middle of the stage at the Gershwin holding a broom on the ground, getting louder and louder, but not going up. Oh, no. And then there's also my favorite compilations are people who are hyper-advertising, who are hyper-analytical about the riffs in the show. So like the incredibly small differences between how actresses who have played these roles sing them. People get very obsessive about who their favorites are, being able to identify them within one note. It's an incredibly fun game online. I highly recommend if you haven't, haven't spent some time. Grace corner of the internet. I'll do that over the next guy. Yeah. We don't have anything this year approaching holding space, but you know, still once again, this has been a press tour, a marketing cycle that has been pretty intense, Madison, I know you have wanted to use green deodorant for your entire life. What is it like as someone who has been a wicked fan for so long, just to see sort of the overwhelming sort of wave of wicked stuff out there? I mean, it makes it frankly easier to tune out, right? The same marketers who are in that room trying to figure out how to have their holding space moment should probably know that I think at this point, wicked fans, we're going to go see this movie a couple of times or feel very strongly about the musical. I'm not going to buy the pink ketchup. Like, don't need the eyeshadow palette. I'm not going to get the crocs. I'm making all these up. I don't know if they exist just to be clear for our legal team who is listening. It just becomes pink and green noise. Yeah. I mean, I think that one tunes out entirely. It's not lost on me that the only breakthrough moment of this film's press cycle is actually, and it sort of ties into the film like quite violent and dark. It was a man who rushed Ariana Grande on a carpet in Singapore, and Cynthia sort of like steps in to protect her. It's this quite frightening moment, and that's, I think, the one moment of the press cycle that has really broken through the noise this time. Less so, the pink and green ketchup. Well, not to sound like a capitalist shill, but I think that, you know, for people who are going through their first round with Wicked, I think maybe they do want some of those things. I mean, I'm surprised when I spoke to people for the first movie, friends of mine, who I consider to be, you know, somewhat difficult to impress when it comes to film. And they fanned out so hard about Wicked, and I, you know, I found it somewhat out of character. And then I would find out that they owned the grim re when they were 13. You know, great book. Still are they buying the ketchup? So have we reached, Pete Wicked? Like, what's next for this? It is, I've been sort of hesitant to call it a franchise, because it's only two films, but it is part of, as we said, the sort of greater Wicked or greater Wizard of Oz decades long sort of intellectual property. Like, what could be next for this? What's the afterlife of Wicked? Yeah. Well, look, there's the lesson that I hope Hollywood would learn, which is to make more properties that are aimed at and for, and that can empower young women. And then there's the lesson that I think Hollywood will learn, which is we should make more Wicked. I expect more spin-offs. I do think that... Spin-off films. Spin-off films are spin-off anything, you know, animated prequels, some sort of Shiz University spin-off. There are some other books. Yes, I mean, there's a lot that you could mine. But I think that this film ends in a way. Where if they made a standalone Glinda movie, you could see how they're setting that up. And I'm curious to see if they'll follow through on that. Obviously, you know, they'd have to come up with songs and experiences that don't exist in the Broadway show, but they've already done that to some extent in these movies. And I think they feel empowered to keep doing it, as long as Ariana wants to. Yeah. We have talked so much, possibly too much, about Wicked, Madison's Making a Face. We are going to... That is just my face. Take a break. And when we come back, we're going to end this episode as we do every week with a little game. Go to the air. I love my dog. Okay, Madison and Kyle, we're going to wrap up this episode as we wrap up every episode with a game. And today, we're going to set off down the Elevork Road toward the Emerald City. Are you too ready? Very. Let's go. Do you have your Ruby slippers? Well, for purposes of copyright, they're silver. Do you have your little dog? And your little dog, too. As well. I've got three rounds for you, so please put your hands on your buzzers. Are you ready? Let's do it. Let's go. All right, we're off to see the wizard. Round one is called if I only had a brain. The answers to all of the questions in this round have a theme. Buzz and first with the right answer and you will get a point. Dr. Jonathan Crane is the alter ego of what fear talks and spewing Batman villain portrayed on screen by Killian Murphy and Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy. Kyle. The scarecrow. The scarecrow. That is correct. This British theater legend performed in his own plays, Blight Spirits, Private Lives and Present Laughter. Kyle. No coward. No coward. That is correct. This film making icon and one time Oscar winner made his first short film, Last Hustle and Brooklyn, while a student at Morehouse College. Kyle. Spike Lee. Spike Lee. Kyle. Oh, sorry. Busting. Spike Lee, that is correct. Slats, Jackie, Tanner and Leo. All of whom have appeared in the logo for the Hollywood studio, MGM, are what kind of animal? Madison. Alion. Alion, that is correct. In 2011, Steven Spielberg and Peter Jackson teamed up to bring what Belgian comic book character and intrepid reporter with a dog named Snowy to the big screen. Kyle. That would be Tintin. Tintin, that is correct. This Hollywood actress met her husband while auditioning for the cable guy and went on to start in three of his films alongside the couple's two daughters, Maud and Iris. Kyle. Leslie Mann. Leslie Mann. Correct to recap those answers. Scarecrow, cowardly, lion, Tintin, Mann. I think you get the theme. It's lost on me. Okay, great. There's maybe no moments in musical theater that comes right from the heart as much as that final note at the end of Define Gravity, the Act One Film One finale in Wicked. I'm going to play you a recording of a notable person performing that moment. And you tell me who the person is. And there's a note from Madison. These are not obscure Broadway actors. All right. Madison. Adina Menzel. Adina Menzel, that is correct. All right. Next. Kyle. I think that might be Kiki Palmer. It is not Kiki Palmer. She does a good one though. She does. I'm waiting for that one. Madison, do you want to give it a try? Trish Paitis. I'm going to give it a try. I'm going to give it a try. Madison, do you want to give it a try? Trish Paitis. I don't know who that is. This, however, is Sabrina Carpenter. Oh. How is Sabrina Carpenter? Next. Madison. Cynthia Arrival. Cynthia Arrival, that is correct. Next one. There's no place, no place like. Roll. Anyone? Is that Ben Platt? That is not Ben Platt, Madison. Kyle. No clue. That is Paul Miscal. What? Do you remember Glican? Oh my god, yeah. As a phenomenon. Who made him do that? That was from Saturday Night Live. Okay, we have a couple more here next. I didn't think I was going to win because, wow! Wow! Kyle. Well, that is Kiki Paul. That is definitely Kiki Paul. Very good. Final one. Oh! I even... I hate myself trying to think like... Madison. So Harvey Feistery? It is not Harvey Feistery. That is Hank Azaria. As his iconic character, Professor John IQ Nerdobound Frank Jr. from The Simpsons. Sure, obviously. Professor Frank. Final round, round three. Tidled. What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage. This round is going to take some guts. I'm going to give you a category. And you have to tell me how many items in that category you can name. Whoever says they can name more is going to get a chance to try. Succeed. And you'll get a point. Fail. And your opponent gets the point. Kyle, you are currently in the lead so you are going to go first. The first category is songs from Wicked For Good. How many items can you think you can name in that category? Oh my god, this is going to be humiliating. I'm going to say three. Madison, how many do you think you can name? Four. I definitely can't do five. Madison, you picked one more than Kyle, which is kind of a cheap way to do this. I really like it, baby. You have to name four songs from Wicked For Good. For Good. That is correct. The girl in the bubble. That is correct. No good deed. That is also correct. As long as your mind. That is also correct. Keep going. Keep going. Just keep going. Sentimental man reprise the Wicked Witch of the East. Wonderful. That new one they wrote for Cynthia about the yellow brick road that I don't remember the name of. I believe it's called No Place Like Home. Oh, okay, great. No place like home. The one on the gaping wall of the yellow brick road. All right. You proved your bonafide. You won that round. Very good. Thank you. I would have been disappointed if you had. Yes, I am. Okay. Next category is movies that take place in Oz. Okay. Madison, how many movies that take place in Oz do you think you can name? Three. That is so low. Kyle, how many movies that take place in Oz do you think you can name? Five. Madison, you can't do six since this is your move. Absolutely not. Okay. All right. It's good to know oneself. Kyle, you're on. Well, obviously wicked and wicked for good. That's too. That's too low. The Wizard of Oz were three already. Return to Oz if you want to really freak your kids out. That is a weird one. And then Sam Raimi's Oz, the Great and Powerful. That is correct. Very good. Do you want to keep going? And does Australia count? What is that? Oz. For Land of Oz. Starting the boy from Oz. Yeah, exactly. Great. I'm back. Kyle, you won that category. Very good. We are down to our final category in our final round. This is a big one. Musicals that were nominated for best picture. How many musicals that were nominated for best picture, Kyle, do you think you can name? Oh man. Nominated for best picture. That's interesting because they didn't have to win. Correct. That's what that means. I'm just going to go with five conservatively. Like, you guys, these are low numbers. Madison. How many musicals nominated for best picture do you think you can name? Let's find a round. Six. What are you doing? Kyle, do you think you can name more than six? I want to watch Madison do it. Oh boy, that is cruel. Also hilarious. Madison, you're up. You have to name six movies that were nominated for best picture. That is correct. That is correct. That is correct. We're good part one. That is correct. That is correct. In the Heights. That is correct. All right, you were so close. You did very, very poorly. Kyle, you're going to get the point. That was a good strategy on your part. But I want to hear you name some more. I'll add two more to those. Chicago, which one? And the Spielberg West Side Story, which was also... Oh, that's cheating. Hey, wow. It counts. Let's end this round by asking very quickly. What's your favorite movie musical? Hello, Dolly. Hello, Dolly. That's good. You know, honestly, for me, the sound of music. Mine is my fair lady. And it... it pates me to say this. But literally all three of the movies that we just mentioned were nominated for best picture. Neither of you guessed them, which is fine. Nobody's perfect, so they say. The more perfect competitor today, however, is Kyle. Kyle, you have won. You flew all the way from Los Angeles to win this game to win an actual prize. Oh, is it a bounty of Gold bricks? It is not... that would not have fit in this cheap tote bag that I have here. However, the thing inside is even cheaper than the tote bag. It is a plastic trophy with my face on it. Oh, wow. We call it the Gilby. I'm treasuring this. This is incredible. Congratulations. I don't know what he would say to us. It is gold. It is gold. Wow. Well done. Congratulations, Kyle. Thank you. That's so nice to see you. Thank you both for coming on. Thank you. And I feel like Madison and I had a nice good Elphabaglinda rivalry that deepened into true friendship. Put your finger out again so she can hold this. This is where we do the musical number, right? I was told there would be a musical number. That's why I showed up. Madison, thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. Take us out with a riff, Madison. That was gold. This episode was produced by Kate LaPresti with help from Alex Barron, who's also our quizmaster, Luke Vanderplug and Dahlia Hadadah. It was edited by Wendy Dore and engineered by Rowan Nemisto, original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Bae Etoupe and Diane Long. Special thanks to Paul Assuman. Thanks for listening. See you next week.