Dare to find radical empathy for the people around you - Murugiah

I've had this opportunity in the new exhibition to explore some sculptural works. Now I'm thinking, right, follow the fun. I had a lot of fun on these sculptural works. Paintings are a joy to me. They've become part of what I do, so I can just keep doing them now. What can I add on top? And it's not about growing in that ego way. It's more fun to me to explore things three-dimensionally next. You're turning these slowly and slowly these characters that are coming from the 2D digital screen into a more tactile, painterly way, into a more three-dimensional way. What happens next is clearly there's animation, there's 3D animation, there's live-action film. Eventually I will become a filmmaker. This is what you want to hear out of it. At some point I will make a live-action film. Who knows? We'll see. Welcome to the Daring Creativity podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Rady Malinic, I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that inspired lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you're there to create? There are artists who chase opportunity and then there are artists who simply do the work, so honestly, so personally and so completely, that the opportunity has no choice but to find them. My guest today is Murugayo, a London-based multidisciplinary artist, trained in architecture, working across illustration, fine art and design. He's been developing a new body of work, a acrylic paintings that fuse his iconic digital aesthetic with something far more emotionally raw, rooted in his Sri Lankan heritage and shaped by years of deliberate, unhurried craft. In this conversation we talk about following the fun, the danger of chasing reward and why the most personal thing you can make is always the most powerful. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Murugayo. Hey Murugayo, it's so great to see you again. Welcome back to Daring Creativity. Hi Radim, thank you so much for having me back. You are one of the elite club of returning guests that had to come back. So much that you're doing right now, so much that you're pushing on so many different fronts, in personifying, embodying the concept of Daring Creativity, I'm excited to talk to you today because you got something to reveal that your thing is quite important and pivotal moment in your career so far. So let's talk about it. But if someone didn't listen to one of my first episodes of second season, who's Murugayo? Who are you? How would you introduce yourself? For new listeners of our conversation, my name is Murugayo and I'm a multidisciplinary artist living and working in London, trained in architecture and I work in illustration, fine art, design and generally being a creative person. You see this is said for the new listeners of our conversation. In our previous conversation we covered almost your journey from the beginning to now or what was now then and now I think we're going to cover now, the future because I would like you to reveal what have you been working on since, obviously since I haven't seen you podcast wise, I've seen you in person, but you've been working on something so important that I wanted to talk about it. What goes into such project? When did we last speak? What year did we last speak? 24? 24. At the tail end of 2023, beginning of 2024, by this point I had been making work with a new, aesthetical influence from the years of 2019 up to 2023. I used the pandemic to create a new art style with the wealth of experience I'd gained from transitioning from architecture to illustration and art in 2012. So 2012 to 2019, wealth of experience, developing what I liked, what I didn't like and then on the pandemic here in 2019 I developed a new art style and that took me up to our conversation 2023, beginning of 24 and in that time, because I have spent the last 2019 to 2023 developing the aesthetics of this style, this new style influenced by my Sri Lankan heritage, my Western upbringing, I started to think I wanted to get more thematics in place. I wanted to talk more emotionally and personally about the work and to do that, I started to also move into analogue production. I wanted to make acrylic paintings, trying to replicate my clean lines and flat colours of my digital aesthetic and try and see what I could do, what I could add with an acrylic painting. So I was doing a lot of things here, wanting to speak very personally and emotionally with each piece and I wanted to see what I could do with acrylic painting, what kind of things could I add. So really trying to make something more personal at this time and I started making small A2 paintings of very specific ideas. An early one was called Myopic and it was one of my characters surrounded by vines and as you pan up towards the painting, you see these brightly coloured flowers and faces and it was a piece about not being able to see the wood through the trees and if you could climb up those vines and climb above those brightly coloured faces and flowers, your mind would be clear. So I was trying to make a piece like this which took a bit longer, so that would be the theme of the painting. The aesthetics moving to acrylic painting, I wanted to create something that was tangible, a little bit more textured, an addition to my bright colours and bright flat colours. So the way I did that was I do a digital drawing, I transfer it onto a thick heavy stock watercolour paper with red ink, because red ink is more forgiving when you paint. Then before applying these flat colours, I decided to do these acrylic drip texture washes and I would drip this acrylic wash over the painting, over this transferred drawing onto this paper and I would move the canvas around, the paper around and allow these drips to move across to create this textured background only a human being could do. This is a physical act of moving the paint around so that it drips in only ways that I can decipher and then determine. Then I would fill in my colours on top, so then you have this tangibly made emotionally presented image and then when I shared that on social media, I started my description of each piece with ever feel like and then I went into the description of the piece, ever feel like you can't see the woods through the trees and then I would go on a little bit and then I would title the piece and present it. I would do that a few times, I did that over the course of after we spoke over the course of 2024, oh there's a cat, I would do that quite a few times and then in early March of 2024, I contacted the Quentin Blake Centre for illustration. I had seen that they were developing a new centre for illustration, a new museum gallery space and on that site, and there's the main building, there's this very long building, on that site was a small windmill space which they described as potentially a space for activations and small activities and I had contacted the centre saying oh I've just started making these paintings, I've got this body of work but I've just started making these small paintings in A2, it's a cylindrical building, I'd love to exhibit them in this cylindrical building as a series and one conversation led to another and many months later they came back and they said look about that small windmill space and your series of paintings, instead of doing that would you like to open the new centre with a debut solo exhibition of your entire body of work that you've developed from 2019 to now? We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lax Coffee Co. The first creative speciality coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lax Coffee Co. offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices and you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins, coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel at laxcoffee.co.uk. You can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order. I have so many questions, like you made me think of so many things because I start this conversation with a blank piece of paper, I listen to what you've got to say and find some dots that I want to join and ever feel like it feels like a sign of times because what you did, you have created your own opportunity. The more I think about what we do and how we do it, especially in now in 2026, to sit back and relax and wait for the world to show up on your doorstep is not going to happen and creating your own inroads and your pathways and actually saying, hey, I want to be there, it's half of the conversation already not filled in. So what I want to know, what did it feel like? Because I'm going to ask you about the transition from the digital into acrylic and physical and how did you get to it? But I'm going to ask you that question later because I want to know about your hopes and your expectations from this email that you send off and say, I'm making small a2, a2 is not small, a2, a2 pieces and then you present obviously you proposed it. What was that feel like? Did you leave that email at that time but you're hopeful? What was your expectations? That's what I want to know first. I had no real expectations. I was just very happy and content with these pieces I was making. They felt truly personal to me. The work I was making from 2019 up to 2023 was about developing a visual aesthetic, but it didn't really have this very core emotional thing that I'm obsessed with this connecting with your feelings, this sensitivity. I wasn't ready to put it in the work at that point. It was very much about describe or present a visual aesthetic of bright colors, busy compositions influenced by South Asian culture and Western upbringing. But now it's time to just turn the dial up a little bit more and add this emotional heft to each piece. So personally I just felt very confident in presenting those ideas so I thought it was the right time to speak to someone about it and see if I could share them with somebody and luckily, very luckily, they responded in a big way. This is the cure for anyone who really feels like that one email is putting all your money on 32 black because you are in motion. This is an add-on to what you've been describing because if you're in transit, if you're developing, if you're looking at that emotional heft in your work, that's your main thought process, that's your main activity. Doing this is like an antidote. Sending one email, I'm not expecting anything that can still make you feel content because you are still moving forward. Whereas sometimes it can be that especially in a social media driven world and I hate to say that we have made things easier these days and it means almost like if you don't get a reply straight away, you feel almost instantly rejected. If you don't have that sort of wealth of experience and slight more maturity because your instinct will tell you if I'm not getting email straight away back, maybe they don't like what I do. Whereas people are busy and that's the thing. And I'm loving the fact that it is the one thing that you wanted to do. You would regret not sending that email because where it's taken you to be actually opening the Quentin Blake Centre for Illustration in Clarec and Well. It's the top of the CV. It's the top of the career portfolio statement right now because you're the one doing this and it all started because you wanted to do it. Absolutely. I think one of the other reasons that I was asked to expand my initial request into a debut solo show was because between the years of 2019 and 2023, I was also practicing illustration and art in a multidisciplinary way and public art sculptures, festival branding, personal work, health and collaborations, everything. Many different projects and I never stuck with one type of client. I always pushed for a different type of client every time. I think, I don't know this for sure, but I think the Quentin Blake Centre had seen this varied portfolio and thought, wouldn't this be an interesting way to open a museum gallery space about illustration? Look at what we can tell young people, kids, new career artists, mid-career artists, late-career artists about what you can do with your work and the variety of things you can do with your work. So aside from what they would say, which is I'm also very talented, which is very nice of them to say, but I think the main thing that they are trying to say is look at all the different stuff you can do with this work. It's interesting you mentioned the T-word, talented, because I have never thought about you that because I think you're very unique. You are incredible in your expression. I feel like when the ingredients and the elements are so one of a kind, the talent almost feels like that's just a benchmark, that's just a sort of foundation because the expression that you put into your work, it's like nothing else I've ever seen. We are bombarded with thousands of images every day and what you've created and what you've developed, then as you said, you were doing so many different things and so many different fronts that it feels like coming home to what you were always meant to be doing because I can only encourage people to listen to the other conversation that we had, maybe not just now, but maybe some time of a time, but leave this conversation now. I'm trying to say to these listeners, stay here, because it was a long journey. You did lots of different things that made you physically ill, that made you feel they were not showing you the light to follow. When you mention it's a debut show, sometimes people can think, I wish I had a debut show much sooner, whereas I feel like a debut show for better or worse. It's coming at the right time of your life because what you bring into the world right now is fucking astounding. Thank you, Radham. A debut show at the ripe old age of 38 years old, having not decided to put on any exhibitions in white box galleries in West London or East London or wherever. But it wasn't something I was looking for, it just happened this way. I mentioned talented earlier. It's a result of a lot of hard work. It's not born from nothing, it comes from working extremely hard and presenting the work after many years of developing it. That's what I call talent, it's hard work. I think it's hard work and the decision to double down on who you are, on sticking with the knowledge. I'm not going to use the word believe, but with the knowledge that you know you've got something that you want to share with the world and you're not going to let go until you get to that point, right? It's so interesting. I consume so many interviews with creatives and filmmakers and artists and I consume a lot of documentation from what my other love, which is cinema. I watched a clip of Bong Joon-ho accepting his best picture Oscar for Parasite. I'd known Bong Joon-ho's films prior to him winning this award for Parasite, but he used his acceptance speech to say the most personal is the most creative. Then he pointed and he was like, that advice came from Martin Scorsese and he pointed to Martin Scorsese in the audience and the whole Academy Award audience stood up because they understood that Martin Scorsese who won almost honorary Oscar for the departed, they understood that Martin Scorsese's influence from a world of cinema had been so big and it was amazing to see this acknowledgement of an entire industry to Scorsese, but that then passed on to a very different type of filmmaker Bong Joon-ho for Parasite and Martin Scorsese makes very personal films about violence and religion and guilt if you think about Killers of the Flower Moon, but those things he talks about in every interview being extremely personal to him, he talks about being in rooms growing up and seeing violence as a young child and putting that on screen. So it just spurred me on to make things that were even more personal with no real understanding of how they might be received. It's beautifully said because how long can people stand, how long even have you been searching to find a personal because there's a beautiful sort of statement of patience in what you've created so far because you were not chasing as you said wide-box galleries of here and there and it can feel so debilitating to think is it my time now, is it my time now, is it my time now because now the question is important, but the question that we're really asking is am I ready? Have I got something to share? Because the fermentation, that long process of creating more than mean something, that impact as long as it takes to make is going to be also tripled with the impact that's going to come after this because it's possible to do things quickly, but as quickly as the things come they also go. So when you think about the process of movie making, how many years sometimes it takes to make a movie, sometimes decades and it's admirable how those people don't let go because they believe in something they would let go because it's the personal reasons that's that expression that you can't fake. I just watched Sirat last night Oliver Lashay's movie about, I'm not even going to spoil anything, but the trailers are about people who go to a rave in Morocco, I'll just leave it at that. What comes after this film is madness and something I don't know, there's not expecting, but I watched an interview with him and he was like, yeah, I've been trying to make this film for 10 years. I've been thinking about this film for 10 years. So I got asked recently, oh, when's your next exhibition going to be? And I'm like, hey, I've just got the first one. So just hold on. But my response was 10 years time because you need time to develop new work, you need time to live life and express what you want to express. And then in 10 years, I'll be able to put it all together again and see it's like going out and making an album. It takes a long time. Yeah, you can shortcut things because we have created so many patterns that we can recognize in making work easier. But the good work that takes time. I remember reading Kill Your Friends by John Niven, which is a killer of a book. It's absolute blast. And somehow at that time, I think I read it about 15 years ago. And I remember reading about the fact that they were turning into a movie and it's taken 20 years to turn into a movie. I'm not sure why they put James Corden in it, but that's another question. These things take a lot of time and it's just like, believe and believe and believe because that journey, as you say, would you put now into your work more thematic, more emotionally have like, those things come with time. And I feel they come with more reward because you immerse yourself in the meaning and the purpose in the discovery of who you are and what questions you're asking of yourself that you can transfer onto the medium. It can get very dangerous thinking about the reward, what comes as a result of what you're doing. I did not expect anything from that email from the Quentin Blake Center. I just was like, I'm excited about this. I want to share this. The most important thing to me that I'm practicing every day is really just exploring my own understanding of life and love and who we are as human beings. What comes as a result, I think I'm coming from a place of privilege here, but I've had now quite a lot of fun projects. And it's so cliched, everybody says it, but the end result is actually not what it's about. It's the journey you've gone on to do that project or even just the process of making that project is much more fulfilling because you can remember the hours on the table, the hours spent writing email, exchanging emails about a project or making the work itself. That's what you go back and remember. I never understood it until right now, where we're coming up to installing this exhibition. I'm like, oh, all of the hours spent developing this work and having meetings and talking about it, it was the fun stuff. What people are going to say about it or react to it. I'm excited to hear it, but it's not something that's important. So this is what you quote eloquently describe as your personal experience of, okay, what is the next thing? I was actually personally asking you what is the thing about was to outcome all for the work of the creative expression. But what you've taken it links it back to my book, Daring Forever, which is about a role of our brain in pursuing these things. Because as humans, we don't really understand who we are, how we are hardwired, what's the vehicle that we've been given. And I've been looking at one of the chapters is the chapter on permission. And I've been looking at like the motivation, like why some of us are more motivated, why some of us are in no less motivated, turns out just like the color of our eyes or genetics, like the dopamine receptors differ from one another. Some people go wider receptors, some people actually go smaller receptors. But dopamine is the chemical that actually is the wanting. The thing that gives us the happy nowadays to fuzzy feeling is actually opioids. This is why addiction works for you. Well, because we are chasing for that warm feeling. So the dopamine thing is that we were not built or designed for pleasure. We were built for pursuit. This is how we work as humans. So we are actually going after the pursuers, hunter-gatherers, which were still undeniably in some form, go afterwards next, go afterwards next. And we don't always appreciate it climbing up to the top of the hill and go in, I'm going to spend here a few years just to enjoy this. We're like, okay, this is this hill, where do I go next? What is what is the second hill? What do I go next? So I think there's a lot of understanding we need to do and passion to one of the reasons why we wanted to write this book is how do we understand ourselves in this process because we've got so much on our thinking plate, let alone to misunderstand how we are operating as humans, that when we have a clarity about the one, which is what I call the vehicle, what we've been all been given, the shell we can operate, our brains, then we can focus on, am I in the right place? Am I doing the right thing? Because pursuit is ultimately, when you think of your name of your show, it's ever feel like, to me, it's a pursuit of the next. A pursuit of the next, yeah. I would like to talk about real quick, you mentioned about questioning oneself and imposter syndrome, right? It robs you of being in the present. It robs you of being in the now, asking, am I doing the right thing? Just be. Another thing I've been doing is following the fun, which is it which helps you be in the present, right? I've done these paintings now for quite a while. I've had this opportunity in the new exhibition to explore some sculptural works. Now I'm thinking, right, follow the fun. I had a lot of fun on these sculptural works. Paintings are a joy to make. They just they've become part of what I do. So I can just keep doing them now. What can I add on top? And it's not about growing in that ego way. It's more fun to me to explore things three dimensionally next. You're turning these slowly and slowly these characters are coming from the 2D digital screen into a more tactile, painterly way, into a more three dimensional way. What happens next? There's clearly this animation, there's 3D animation, there's live action film. Eventually I will become a filmmaker. This is what you want to hear out of at some point I will make a live action film. Who knows? We'll see. I am very sure that you will. But I have to ask you about those two words you just said, just be. Because how long would you say it's taking you to realize that just being is an option? I've said it just now. I transitioned from architecture to illustration and art in 2012. But my true love was art and movies when I was 18. So it was 20 years since I went to architecture school. It's been a long time, let's say. So finally living in the moment, living in the present, just exploring what you want to explore next. But that comes with a lot of privilege, right? I have enough clients and work. Don't get me wrong, I still struggle every month, every year. Brutal honesty, I made half as much money as I did the previous two years this year. I made half as much money. My income dropped from whatever to half of that. And that is scary stuff. That is a result of surrounding factors in the world as a result of politics and wars and all sorts. It did not stop me from wanting to explore painting, sculpture, personality, humanity, because those are at the core theme of who I am underneath. So I will always find a way of presenting this work in whatever way I can. What you did, you have come to a junction in the road where you ask yourself, who do I want to be in the room as? It's easy to carry on straight ahead with the comfortable. If I was to borrow from Steve Jobs his quote, just do your thing. Don't bump into the wall to your margin. Fit in and whatever. Whereas when you get to that junction, you go, do I stay on or do I take left or do I take hard right? It's never going to be paved with just as good conditions and the same sort of financial reward. It's that nihilist penguin meme, isn't it? Do you know that nihilist penguin meme with Verne Herzog? Is that what I'm describing? Verne Herzog, it's gone around the internet. It's a nature documentary that Verne Herzog is narrating and making and he films a penguin deciding whether to join their tribe on one side to salute and warmth or to go towards the mountain to certain death and the penguin looks back at the comfort of penguins and looks towards the mountain and then just heads towards the mountain and then Verne Herzog, he just says, but why in his very thick German accent? It's gone around the internet and people have misunderstood it, but it is about nihilism and I think it, I don't know, my approach to the work clearly, I think this junction where you decide to not stick to the one road and you go to another, cheesy as it sounds, I think it comes from my love of American pop punk music, music that is deeply rooted in suburban boredom and kind of like an FU attitude, teenage angst. I still haven't grown out of that, so maybe that's what's the actual thread of why I'm doing what I'm doing. You actually, at that instance, you followed that dopamine was just, why would I get up at six o'clock in the morning and work on this? Why would I send this email? Why would I do this? Because we can choose and you mentioned about privilege quite a few times. We know how good we have it. This is a Disney land. The thing even just being able to do this podcast to share with thousands of people across the world, you having a show, you actually being able to have clients from around the world ask to it, this is freaking amazing. And we go, but is there more? The privilege to wake up in the morning, spend a few hours painting and then go for an hour's walk in the sunshine and not have to answer to anybody and then to come back and write emails. I don't know if everybody's built for this life. Some people like to go to work and they like to compartmentalize as the thing that they do to them and living and I just never could do that. If I can actually interject on that one, no, that's not for everyone. I think that's why there's only few of us doing this because we need people to do the other jobs. We need other people to be in the role instead, kind of create a society. When you were saying this, made me think of a quote by Rory Saviland who said, unfortunately, the world is full of people who don't believe in magic. That's why you get corporate companies. That's why you get corporate structures. That's why your politics, people don't believe in magic. And when you put yourself almost on the fringe of the society by doing what you really believe in, what is almost the only option of what you want to do, you create in the magic for those who actually appreciate it. Because when you add up your day in life, it's like to some people, to most people in those jobs, if you're like, oh, I wish I could do that. Even walking for an hour in the sunshine, that's a dividend of this career choice because not everyone can do this. And it's the gratitude for the smallest things that then filters back into your work and creates the sort of societal representation of a snapshot of how we see the world is that we need people like you to do that because the people working for Deutsche Bank or where in the other days with JP Morgan, they won't do that. It might also be to do with coming of age, turning 38. Do you know what I mean? I just had my birthday a couple of weekends ago, getting to a point where a lot of your friends around you are having children and you are at this junction, another junction of deciding, do you have children? Do you pursue not having children and just enjoying your life in a different way? It started me down the train of thought of all of this work that I've done, all of this enjoyment that I've had at work. Is that it? Is that all that this life is? I've got to live my dream. I've got to, I get to go back mentally to the lonely little kid in the art room at school. When everyone else was playing outside, I was sat in the art room because that's where I felt comfortable. I get to go back and tell that kid, hey, you've done it. You've done it. And then that kid will be like, cool, what are you doing next? You've done it. You've done the art thing. What are you going to do next? And that definitely means starting a family probably. When you think about it, it's a perception. It's our perception of the world because you'll have people with seemingly, I'm going to call it regular lives. And they'll be like, okay, you've got your show. What is your next show? They don't really think about the journey of how long it takes to get to this point of life because you're not going to have someone with five kids when you have an next child. It's enough. So I think we don't always have encounters with people gone deep on themselves. And I think when you talk about a child in the art class, in the art room, not telling him, and you've done it, you've gone far, that takes a lot of retrospection and looking back and actually looking into yourself. Who am I? Why do I create this? Why does this thing come out? And where did these shapes come from? Like there's a physical influence. There's a world of movies, there's a Sri Lankan heritage, the macabre is in there, but that's your unique mixture of things. I'm an introspective guy, I think. I just didn't really know I was an introspective guy. Oh, I didn't know I could be an introspective creative person until recently. That's what's messed up. I wish I had done it from a long time ago. There is only one ingredient why happens and that is time. We just govern more experiences, more view and, as you said, introspection in our own lives because you got to try to make sense of your own life and a melee of other souls around you, but to be comfortably with yourself on your own, to hear yourself, what you actually think, what you want, what you want to achieve, that's a gift on its own because I have mentioned this a few times on the podcast. Now you get people who are comfortable in the chaos and then there's people who are too uncomfortable to be on their own, that makes sense because there is a fine tuning in either of the worlds. It doesn't mean that if you want for the other day, you didn't things right because our societal view of artists or creatives, bankers, bus drivers, there's like, if you're ex, then you must be feeling like the ex I'm thinking. We don't always see the intricacy of the soul. The bus driver could be the most amazing artist, but we're thinking we're just a bus driver. What we're all is very woo-woo, but we're all just human beings trying to exist. And I find life more fulfilling if I put myself in the bus driver's shoes and I go, I wonder how he's feeling today or I wonder how they're feeling today. Empathy, radical empathy for the people around you helps you as an individual be introspective later because you just being a bit more aware of your surroundings and then at intern it makes you more aware of your own internal feelings. Am I going to become like a guru of some kind? I think what you're becoming now, I think it's a very kind human being that actually cares about others because that I believe that's where your work comes from right now. I want to talk about a bad of show. What's gone into the pieces that you're creating? Is there some societal response to how you see the world right now? What is the main body of work? What does it look like? What does it say? Sure, I can't share too many specifics about specific pieces of work, but I can describe you what's going on in a wider context. There are three rooms in this show. The exhibition space that I have been given is a U-shape exhibition space, which is a very unique exhibition space with multiple entrances and exits via lift or stairs. You really have to think about what journey you're taking your visitors on, how you're separating the work and yeah, the feeling of your visitors when they go through this space. The first room that you enter, we have created a directional motion with visitors. We were thinking about it being a U which can connect. We were thinking about, oh, you could send people either side of the stems of the U and take them through to the curve of the U, but we've decided to take them one way and round the other. The first room is a room of how I build worlds with other people while influenced by my own personal work. So it's the collaborations mixed in with some of my digital personal pieces. It's a clear direction of here's what I've been doing personally and digitally at the beginning of this 2019 to 2020 six period. And here's how it's worked with collaborators, movie posters, book covers. There's a magic the gathering piece in there, which is quite fun. And then we transition into the second room, which is this giant U shaped space, the bottom of the U. And there is a very exciting large scale sculptural piece in there. And then as we go round the U, we get into the next stem of the U to complete it. And that is where there is a lot of introspective painting work. Some of that work that I first contacted the Quentin Blake Center about to exhibit. And that work has been expanded in a very big way. The paintings have gotten bigger. The detail has gotten finer. And the exploration of theme of personal growth or personal theme has gotten even more introspective. And there are some exciting sculptural works in there too. So it's a three room piece, three room exhibition. And there's a lot of work on show it in those spaces. And in addition to that, we've got an exhibition shop, which I've been working closely with the Quentin Blake Center to deliver a range of fun products to sell in the exhibition as well. It's an opportunity I never thought I would have had. It's just so fun to just pinch myself every day and be like, this is what are you doing here? I love in the radical gratitude for the situation. I did signal earlier that I was going to ask you about the technical skill because you talked about the canvases, the paint, the layering, the texturing. So let's put a bit more color on that process where you're responding to a rival of generative technology, new AI and all of those things. And you're taking it into almost tactile textured pieces where they mean so much more and they feel so much more. What was that physical learning of these techniques? Did you know them already or are you still constantly searching and learning new techniques? The last time I used analog techniques was 16, 17 years old. I'd made a lot of lino prints at school. I made a lot of paintings and drawings. I could draw incredibly realistically. I could recreate images in black and white pencils. So that was the last time I used them and I was quite good at it when I was at school. And then obviously architecture training, very digital. We made a lot of handmade models in the CNC machine and the wood workshop. We would use our hands tactically. And we were actually throughout architecture school, we made a lot of tangible items. They just weren't drawings. There were books, there were models, there were physical pieces, one to 50 scale models or a phone board and stuff. So I was lucky to be at university at a time where all of this stuff was encouraged to be made by hand. But then in 2012, when I transitioned from architecture to illustration and art, digital products were at the forefront, I think, Wacom tablets and graphics tablets and clients were demanding a lot of work digitally because of the quick turnaround. So I stuck to that. But I always want to get back to handmade stuff. Eventually, I'll want to do lino printing at some point to further sit next to that kid in the art room and be, hey, now we're making lino together. So I've always wanted to do it. And after 2019 to 2024, I built enough of a client base in digital work that I thought, maybe let's try some analog stuff. But during that time of 2019 to 2024, I always chose projects that had a tactile part of the work, either it be it a book cover, which you could end with a physical copy of a book, or a movie poster, which had a limited run of screen prints that you can make at the end of this process where you could decipher, paper choices, hollow foil, screen printing techniques. I was always focused on a tactile thing at the end of each project to the chagrin of my other fellow movie poster designers who would take on digital marketing jobs where they'd get to design a poster for their favorite film or TV show. But it would just be this social media thumbnail to advertise this. And I was, what are you doing? Hey, credit to you, you're making money from it. And that's good, you're earning a living. But I just felt so sad that this piece of art that someone had made for this film or TV show never saw the light of day in somebody's hands. So when it came to 2023, 24, I was getting on making things by hand for myself, personal paintings. That's when I moved to the acrylic painting technique. And it just came naturally, it was very easy to transition a digital drawing to a piece of paper. And then the tactile part of the process is the painting, it's the viscosity of layering of paint. Do you keep this solid color that you're applying very solid or do you only do one layer and then it becomes a little bit thinner so you can see the textured wash underneath. And you can make those decisions. That's the intuitive stuff, that's the stuff that AI can't do, right? It's human being being like, oh, that blue looks more solid when it comes out the tube, that's great. This pink does not look as solid, I'm going to layer this up a bit more or keep it thin. That's interesting, I'm going to challenge you on what you just said because you say AI can't do that. I think AI can do a lot of things, you just can't have the reason for them. Because when you talked about the tactile nature of the things that you've chosen to do, it's ultimately plain to us and it's like you want to have more than just one-dimensional experience because I've used AI on various manual tasks of expanding artworks and whatever, something that you would do as a retoucher and AI can fake it really well. Yeah, we're talking about like literally silly things, right? Like nothing heavy and you can feed back to sketch and say, okay, I want this paint texture to do and it produces something but it doesn't have that tactile feel, it doesn't have that, what would you describe it? Because the purpose behind it and the reasoning is what makes the piece unique, it makes it personal because I believe that's where we will always win. There's this huge chat from lots of corners about AI, it's the taste, people talk about taste but we're thinking, when the fuck was the taste for the last 30, 40 years? We always had the taste. Don't tell me that now taste is important because it always was important because it comes from us if you care. When we won't win is when those robots get sentient and then they can make their own art and make their own decisions and the AI that they've been training on gets put into them, into that sentient robot. Then they're just living beings, they're just other beings but I think we're quite far away from that singularity of sentient robots. Would you buy a robot paint thing? This is the thing. Hell yeah, it would, I'd be so intrigued to see what a sentient robot would be making about their own experience and what their understanding of the world is because they're sentient, they're another being at that point. They want to be hopefully respected because they also have the physical power to destroy us all. Wow, you have taken me somewhere, I wasn't expecting. You've seen Terminator, right? They fucked us up. Would like to believe that I was still an imagination. I'm being silly, I'm being silly. At the moment, yes, AI can't produce tactile, intuitive decision making. They can't make a brushstroke which is the choice of the human, it can't fuck up, it can't make mistakes. Like half the reason I make my paintings look the way they do is because I can't do certain techniques, right? I've made decisions to go down the path of specific techniques. I think that's what ultimately human beings respond to and we watch movies all the time and their biggest movie of the year is Sinners, the second biggest movie of the year is One Battle After Another. They both have very visceral, tactile looks and feels to those movies. So we're still proving our love of tactility every day. It beautifully brings me to what you just said, the founder of the Quentin Blake Center for Illustration, which is Quentin Blake himself, who says, I have long dream of permanent place with illustration above the door and now the amazing realities that we have it. I'm proud to think that the center has my name on it. Illustration is a wonderful universal and varied language. Here we shall celebrate its tradition and welcome the astonishing diversity of visual language from across the world. When you talk about sentient robots and Quentin Blake, they couldn't be further apart, right? Absolutely further apart because the reason why Quentin is so many people's favorite illustrator, why his career is so beautifully celebrated is because it comes back to tactile nature. It comes to that jaggedy, the unpredictability, that jaggediness, like the realness of it. His illustration is fantastic, but it's not too far from what you potentially or anyone can do. It didn't feel so far because it gives people hope that everyone can tell a story. Quentin's work, it is about that scratchy style. It is about that irreverent humor, but it's also about capturing life in a very subtle and beautiful way. This is somebody who has been around for decades, who's been able to present this work, which is really about humanity and fun and silliness, and then also done it in this extremely intuitive human way. The scratchy style is beautiful work. He's just capturing life, reflecting it back and presenting it to the world in his work. He also happened to have collaborated with Roald Dahl on a series of books that captured the imaginations of many kids. It's this combined thing of commercial projects with very personal work as well, so it's a mixture of everything. When it comes to comparing Quentin to robots, I don't know. I'm sure a robot or an AI could replicate the style, but it can't make those intuitive decisions that make the work human. It's something that's very hard to explain. You'd have to ask someone, a random person, and compare a Quentin Blake imitation drawing made by an AI generator versus an original tactile Quentin Blake painting, and you can see the difference immediately and you'd present that to a human being and they would be able to tell you. But the way they'd be able to tell you is that this one feels different. Then somewhere that our brains are just very good at spotting bullshit. We just know the difference straight away and sometimes you can have a render, especially at the height of the 3D development. People can do some beautiful things and you're like, yeah, you can tell. You don't even have to be an expert. It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel real. There's a certain thing that just your brain was spot. And in a way, when you talked about Quentin Blake, he captures life and presents it back to you. That's what I'm getting from your work now. You capture in your societal commentary the way you see the world and presenting it back. And as I told you at the beginning of our conversation, the way you do it is so unique that it makes me want to know more about what goes into this. What do you see? What are the connections that we haven't made for ourselves? Because how did you feel presenting these pieces to someone as important as Quentin? Did you feel any doubt? Did you feel like you were at the right place at the right time, which would be established in any way? Did you feel any heaviness, any pressure from delivering? Or did you feel like, okay, it's my time. I can enjoy this? Working with the artistic director Olivia Armad and her team gave me nothing but support and joy and pride in the work, proud practice in the work. I know nothing about curating a show, right? So I just wanted to put as much work as possible because I have this South Asian mentality of more is better, try to approve yourself or less. And the folks of the Quentin Blake Center were saying, no, we chose you because these pieces of work stand on their own. They mean something. We want visitors to stand in front of each piece of your work and contemplate it and take it in. And that gave me a lot of confidence when they said that. It took me a long time to understand, oh no, no, have pride in your own work and focus on each piece and make it mean something very important. What it meant, I think it was the imposter syndrome of presenting in the Quentin Blake Center illustration in this wider framing of your question. I don't think that will come until reactions, until the show is installed and we see how it's responded to. That's probably where it'll suddenly dawn on me that I have a national exhibition where anyone can come and tell their opinion on this stuff. Do the opinions matter though? Do they matter because you didn't create the pieces of opinions to present opinions. It's just reflections. That's his expression. They didn't matter until you have a responsibility to present an exhibition to members of the public where you want to celebrate a newly presented art form. The Quentin Blake Center for Illustration is saying we are a national museum, a gallery space for illustration. This is the home of illustration and that comes with needing the building to continue and to present future shows and to be a part of this culture in the UK of visiting exhibitions and going to art exhibits and national galleries. Being one of the first people to be a part of that in the form of my show, there is a responsibility there and you do require people to come and to enjoy and to say whether they like it or not but you really need to get people through the door. I feel an immense sense of responsibility but before the show, before I even got the opportunity, I was making work for myself but now that it's being presented in this form, there's a responsibility to get people through the door. I can agree with you. I'm trying to search for the true meaning because how many times you show up in a gallery and you don't know anything about anything and it's there and there's almost like a good book. A good book is meaningful as you find you at the right time. The show is not going to find some people at the right time, they'll get it a year later, they're not there yet. What you do incredibly well is actually you care of how you show up, you care how you want people to feel, you are very grateful for the opportunity especially attached to such something so big and that's where you get this cocktail of expression that's going to translate into something so remarkable in your career and the illustration center that will be celebrated for years to come. Let's hope so. I think I care so much because I know what it was like to not have these opportunities to... I eat... 27 years old when I was crying my eyes out in my little room, my studio room, talking to my partner saying the work I'm doing doesn't make sense, it doesn't mean anything to me, none of this is actually what I do, it doesn't feel authentic to me. 27 years old just being like that upset about why this isn't working. So I can just look back at that time and be like, yeah, it's all fine now, don't worry about it, just keep going, having a good time, just enjoy it. But the reason I can be so humble about it now is because I know what it was like to not have it then. What can I say? I think it's all happening, is the right thing happening at the right time and I can't wait to be there to see the opening, to celebrate you, to support you because yeah, it just feels like everything aligned at the right time in the right place. Well done and yeah, thanks for coming back to talk to me and as I said, come away to see your show and I definitely encourage everyone listening to this to come up and view the show. So thank you very much. Thank you so much for letting me come on your podcast and just ramble, so however long this is going to be edited to. So I'm looking forward to seeing you all at the opening of the Quentin Blake Centre in a few days, I can't wait to see you all there, it's going to be such a fun exhibition and come and say hi. Fantastic. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions. So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Maninage. The audio production was done by Neil MacKay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle including an e-book and audiobook to make the content accessible whatever you are and whatever you do. 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