When it comes to the Epstein files, we often hear about the famous people mentioned in them. But a reporting team at NPR recently focused on a place, the interlocking center for the arts. It's a prestigious elite school up in Northern Michigan for really talented young artists, people who go through there. I mean, there was Josh Groban, Chapel Rhone. That's Ava Berger, an intern here at NPR. She co-reported a story recently about Jeffrey Epstein's relationship to Interlocking. We found out that Epstein was an alum. He played the bassoon in the 1960s out in Trilocken. And he would come back later in the 90s and early 2000s and donate almost a little bit over $400,000 to the school. The largest chunk of that donation went to building a cabin on Interlocking's campus. Epstein and his co-conspirator, Galein Maxwell, would stay there for brief visits. Just before they were convicted for sex crimes, Ava learned how those visits worked. So Galein Maxwell would contact a school administrator. We'd like to come and stay in the cabin. The administrator would say, yes, great. What do you need? And Galein would get back and say, I want, we want these things and we're coming. Once they're there, they really were on their own. And that's where the story takes a turn. This lodge was his base there. And while he was there, he was walking around campus and he had a little dog with him with Galein Maxwell. And that's where he ended up meeting to a 13-year-old and a 14-year-old girl. Those girls, now women in their 40s, became wrapped up in Epstein's orbit. The first woman who testified in the Galein Maxwell trial, she described years of sexual abuse. The second woman who we talked to, she described a relationship that was manipulative and controlling and an abuse of power. Consider this. To unravel personal stories of how Epstein and Maxwell gained access to girls at Interlocken, it required reporters to spend days sifting through documents. After the break, we'll hear about how those documents led Ava and her team to real people, whose stories shed new light on how Epstein and Maxwell used their access to a highly respected institution to target girls. From NPR, I'm Adrian Ma. This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. You can send, spend, and receive an up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart, get Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com, T's and C's apply. It's considered this from NPR. Reporters here at NPR notice the name of a highly respected youth camp popping up repeatedly in the Epstein files. Interlocken Center for the Arts. When intern Ava Berger started combing through these documents, she knew there were stories there. If she could only find the right thread to follow. As we sat down for this week's reporter's notebook, I asked her what it was like to look into the Epstein files. It's a mess. The Epstein files are really a mess. There are redactions in some places of people's names that aren't victims and then they're not redacted in other places. Then there's so many repeats of files. You'll have an email chain and you'll have one email. The next file is the second email and the next file is the third email. The last file is all six of the emails on the email chain, if that makes sense. It's a lot of it is just going through. I saw this. I saw this. This reporting involved hundreds of documents and sifting through and piecing a lot of things together. How do you go about assembling a coherent story from all that? When I was looking at these documents, I was trying to find a theme. The one point that stuck with me was from a statement that interlock and release and it said they did not allow unsupervised contact with donors or students. It just didn't make sense in my head how that could be a policy when we knew that Epstein had met two campers and gone on to have relationships with them. I was trying to find details that explained that. What could tell us how Epstein got access, how he was able to have a lodge on the cabin, how he was able to get in contact with these young girls? Those were the details I was looking for. I think when we look through so many pages of documents and anyone who looks through things, you have to have something in your head that grounds you into why is this important, why does this matter? To me it mattered because it was so horrifying to think that I went to a summer camp growing up that these young girls who loved and trusted this place could end up in the situation they were in, which is they met Epstein and Maxwell and were in their orbit for years. Can you say more about verification because with countless pages to sift through and all kinds of conversations and records, how do you verify what you're looking at and know that you're getting the accurate story? So part of it was using other documents to verify what we were seeing. But a big part of it is, is actually my conversations with these, I talked to two former administrators, were really, a lot of them was me saying, do you remember this? What does this specific detail mean? What did you mean by this? Why did you tell Epstein and Maxwell this? And a lot of that doesn't make into the story because we are just trying to confirm with people who were there at the time what this means. So that was a huge part of our corroborating the details. And then talking to that other woman who met Epstein and Maxwell on the campus, she was also able to fill in some gaps for us that we wouldn't have known otherwise. So I think the interviews is the really key part that we needed to take it a step further. We couldn't just rely on the documents. So in the story, you interviewed a woman who was a camper at the time who talked about how she met Epstein and Maxwell. And in the story, she's anonymous. Can you tell us about the process of what it was like engaging with her and asking her to tell her story? Because it sounds like it could be difficult. Yeah, it was really difficult, Adrienne, especially because talking about this can be retry-gring and bring up thoughts that she might not have had for a really long time. And another part of it that I didn't know, I mean, we see all this reporting on the Epstein files and we see a lot of the victims speaking out and wanting the Epstein files released. But there are people who were part of that world who do not want anything to do with this anymore. Who want people to understand what they went through, but seeing the photos of Epstein and Maxwell everywhere is not a good feeling. And I didn't realize that there was so much nuance there. These people are not a monolith and that was really what we got from talking to her. That you can want your story shared, but not want your name out there and not want to be the center of attention with all of this. You might just want to be living your life. It's been years now and you want to move forward. Yeah. Do you have this general sense of how long she talked to you? Hours. So it's been a couple of weeks since you published this story. What's the reaction to it been? It's been very- within the alumni community. It's been very large. We've- people have reached out to us and shared stories from that time period. And I think in general, people are really horrified. There's a sense that this campus soul in the- it's a campus school is so beloved among people. And it's just so a place of such happiness. And so it's really hard for people to wrap their heads around. How could this happen? Ava, we mentioned earlier that you're an intern at NPR. How did reporting this story change how you think as a reporter? Yes. I think it goes back to that woman we were talking about. And that you never know. And this- I've- you've- this can apply to so many stories. You never know what the story is until you talk to the people who are part of it. And she really helped us understand what this story was. And that I can never overlook voices versus just a document. You know, like you always have to take that next step and interview that next person and reach out. Even if you think someone won't respond, sometimes they do. And you really never know. So my- what I've taken away is just- it never hurts to go the extra mile. Ava Berger, thank you for taking the time to talk about your reporting with us. Thank you, Adrian. This episode was produced by Gabriel Sanchez and it was edited by Tim B. Aermias and Adam Rainey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. And it's considered this from NPR. I'm Adrian Ma. One of you here this podcast without sponsor breaks. 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