Wemby and the Spurs Slay OKC With Michael Pina. Plus, Nick Friedell and Cam Johnson.

All right, coming up, we got a loaded Zach Loeschow on Monday. Michael Pinas here. We're going to talk about the Spurs ending the Oklahoma City Thunder, Winstry, preview the NBA Cup Finals between the Spurs and the New York Knicks. Do a check-in on the Spurs, the Thunder, the State of the West. Then we're going to go down in the standings. After we do some headlines, we're going to talk Cavs and Zion coming back and a bunch of Porzinga stuff. And then we're going to go down in the standings to look at the West playing race and zoom in on some teams I haven't talked about much this year. So far, at least this deeply, the Jazz, the Blazers, the Grizzlies, and then my old buddy Nick Friedel, Missed Ya Nick, coming on to talk Warriors 13 and 14. Just lost a couple of crazy stuff games. Crazy schedule to start the season. What do we think of the Warriors? They're in the play and raise too. It's play and day, I guess, in the West on the Zach Loeschow. Then not in the play and at all. Cam Johnson from the Denver Nuggets and the Young Man in the Three or the Old Man in the Three podcast. Stop spy for a chat too. We got a loaded show today. Hope you'll enjoy it. This episode of the Zach Loeschow is presented by Amazon Prime. The holidays are here and they move quick. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery is your miracle play, getting whatever you need there fast. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. From stocking stuffers to that perfect gift for the MVP in your life, it's on Prime. Head to amazon.com. Prime to shop now. Welcome to the Zach Loeschow. It's Monday morning and we've got a lot to talk about starting with the NBA Cup. The finals are on Tuesday. The New York Knicks against the Oklahoma. Wait. The San Antonio Spurs ended the Thunder's million game winning streak, dealt them their second loss of the season and Victor Wimbanyama has come back game. An absolute thriller between two teams who have a little spice, a rivalry that could define the NBA for the next five years, five years plus Chet Wemby. There's maybe not beef there as Chet says, but there's something there. Awesome game. Awesome moment for the Spurs. And now we get the final Spurs. Thanks, Michael Pino. What's going on? How you doing, man? I'm good. You like that game, boy? We got two teams, 18 and seven identical records facing off for the NBA Cup in a game that does not count in the standings. So they will enter at 18 and seven and exit at 18 and seven. And that, I mean, we just got to start with the Spurs because we, the entire NBA media was talking 73 wins. OKC versus the field. I said, I tentatively had reached the point where I would take OKC over the field, despite the fact that I think at the very least Denver could give them a run for their money in a seven game playoff series. The whole Western conference watched that game and we're like, yes. OK. A little vulnerability was shown. Wemby came back a little rusty, some awkward turnovers, some limbs flailing here and there. Defense was there. Lob Dunks were there. Close the game. Spurs win. Castle sensational performance. And Stan Van Gundy just said it right out loud. He says the Spurs can contend this year. Now he didn't say championship, but I assume that was the implication. Are you there with those Spurs, Pina? I think I am. And I wrote this in a little preview on theringer.com of tomorrow's final. I think if Wemby Njama is healthy and able to play 35, 36 minutes a game throughout an entire playoff run, like why not? I think that this team is mature beyond their age. You watch someone like Dylan Harper, who just gets better and better by the quarter almost, it feels like, and just looks like he's 28 years old. Devin Vasell is, I thought his defense in that game against Shay Giller-Shaler-Zander was phenomenal. I thought that the, you mentioned Steph Castle. He looks great. He looks like one of the more improved players in the entire league and he won Rookie of the Year last season. So I think that there are definitely some flaws with this team, but when you have someone like Victor Weminyama, he just covers up so many of them and he fills the box score, but at the same time, he makes the box score look like toilet paper. Like everything is superficial with what he does. His impact just kind of pervades the entire game. And I'll give you a really quick example. I don't mean to ramble, but Victor Weminyama is worth it. At the start of the fourth quarter, Mitch Johnson had Victor Weminyama basically go to the nail at the start of the quarter and they threw him the ball. He draws a foul on Jalen Williams, who's the Oklahoma State Thunder regarding him with a small, draws a foul with a rip to remove. Next play, do the same thing. He just turns around, shoots a jumper over Jalen Williams head. Next play, Kaysen Wallace digs in to help to anticipate the pass into Victor. I think it was Harrison Barnes or Darren Fox just flips it over to the weak side and the Spurs get a three, wide open three. So he's just, I don't know what you do with him and he keeps getting better and better. So to answer your question, yeah, I thought that SVG was right on point with that prediction or that call of that possibility for sure. Another great stand moment in the broadcast was, he spent a lot of the broadcasts justifiably celebrating the quality of the game and the quality of the NBA Cup. And then he was like, so it was kind of like Stan just, you know, being very positive about the NBA. And then it was like, then he said, this is what can happen by the way, when you give NBA players a few days off and it's like, yeah, yeah, I can maybe 82 games is too many Stan. Maybe you slipped that one in there a little bit. But look, you mentioned Harris, just you mentioned a lot of stuff. Darren Fox, boy, there was a lot of angst over the summer about the max contract, about how is this going to work with Fox and Castle and Harper? And are we already going to get to a point where they've got a trade Fox? And I've been wrong about a lot of stuff. We're going to get to my worst preseason prediction later in this podcast. I said, I think Fox is going to have an awesome beam team level year. I think this is a total non problem because he is there to make sure that neither castle, who by the way is averaging four turnovers per game and is one of the least efficient isolation players in the entire league. And I don't even care because you're so goddamn good at everything else to make sure he and Harper don't get overburdened, particularly if you get to the playoffs against the best defenses in the league. This is a total non problem. And it's been a total non problem. Fox is averaging 24 a game, 49%, 39% on threes. The pinky finger is not bothering him anymore. It's a really well balanced attack where they can have two of those three guys on the floor at all times. And if you're going to face a defense like the Thunder, you need minimum two high level ball handlers, if not three, to just, you're going to have to try every crack, every part of the floor to try to break them down and make sure castle, like they run a lot of games where castle is never the only point guard on the floor where either Fox or Harper is with him. And lastly, you mentioned the Spurs like lots of teams putting a wing on Wemby and putting their center anywhere else but Wemby, both to Rove and to chase Wemby around with the speedier guy. And that guy in the starting five is Harrison Barnes. And Harrison Barnes is averaging 13 points a game and shooting 41% on threes and almost 60% on twos. He's had enough juice to kind of break that scheme a little bit. Sohan has not and Sohan is on the fringes of the rotation at best. And sometimes the Spurs will play four guards around Wemby to make it harder and harder to that. They'll put Champaign in there with the three guards and Viselle has been awesome. I can't, championship contender, I don't know if I'm ready to go there yet because the West is just so good. And three playoff series wins for a team this young. I think Harper and Castle are going to have some growing pains moment. So I'm a little below that. They're a no brainer, top six team. And more broadly, my guess is the way Castle has played lately, the way Harper has played all his rookie season, the fact that we just got to see they're starting five together, all these guys together for the first time all season, the fact that Fox and Wemby and Yama have still barely played together. I think Harper and Wemby have better pick and roll chemistry so far than Fox and Wemby. And actually that's good for the Spurs because the latter combination will come up. If I'm seeing Antonio and I'm looking at all that and I'm looking at Yannis injured with a lower leg injury and he's had a bunch of those in the last few years, I think I'm probably just going to sit it out. And I suspect the Spurs at this point are like, we got to see what we have before we even entertain the idea of as great a player as that is, the kind of roster upheaval that that indicates for this season. That's my best educated guess on their stance. They're awesome. I don't think they can win the championship. I would bet heavily against them making the finals, but I don't want any part of this team into playoffs. Winning the championship is really hard, as you said. And I think for me, the label of contender can be pretty generous. I would not pick them in a series against the Denver Nuggets, the Oklahoma City Thunder, probably the Houston Rockets. So if they can play one of them and get some injury luck and Victor goes crazy and Dylan Harper takes another step. And as you said, Steph Castles cleans up some of the turnovers, then who knows? But De'Aaron Fox has been tremendous, as you said. And I wrote this today, but mentioning Yannis and the pursuit of him, I would also sit this one out. If I was a San Antonio spurs, I would be super patient with the nucleus that I have. I would let it grow organically. I just love the young talent. I love how it's coalescing around Victor. And if I was the spurs, that doesn't mean I won't be aggressive in a different way. I would look at the Bucks and I would ask, can we get Gary Trent Jr.? Can we get some three-point shooting? Can I get another wing for the playoffs? You can't have too much shooting. You can't have too much two-way versatility. So that's kind of where I would be at if I was San Antonio. No disrespect to Yannis at all. If I were the spurs, that's kind of what would be my goal here in trying to improve my team in the short and long term. I want to see the team. We still have barely seen the team. Another guy who needs to get name-checked is Kelden Johnson, who is doing everything you want out of Kelden Johnson as a six-man kind of player. Vacella is shooting 40% from three. We've just had an A-plus year across the board. And on Yannis, I'm starting to wonder if this is just not going to happen until the summer. If what we thought going into the season, that his leverage really kicks in to high year in the summer when they can offer him the extension and he can indicate that maybe I'm not going to sign that extension, because I'm not sure who the team is that's going to bowl them over this season. I don't think the Bucks are even entertaining this right now. I don't think they're taking calls from whatever. I don't think they're doing anything. Briefly on the Knicks, offensively, they're up to second in the league and just ran roughshot over a pretty goddamn good Orlando Magic defense in the semis. Second in offense, 11th in defense, fourth in net rating. That's the roadmap. And I thought that semifinal game was one of the best Brunson cat two man games, two man game games of their season so far in terms of how they, they leveraged, oh, you're going to put your centers on cat because Josh Hart has played so well that you don't feel comfortable hiding them there. We're going to, we're going to run that two man game in lots of different ways. We're never going to spam it the way you might want us to spam it. We're going to have Brunson back screen for cat. We're going to run some inverted pick and rolls. We'll run a lot of straight up pick and rolls. And I just love the way the ball is flying around for them in both the half court and in transition. They look like an awesome offensive team. The bench is a little hit or miss and needs to get healthy with Deuce McBride and Landry Shamet, but they look sort of as, as advertised. And you know, the cup is a bonus obviously for either one of these teams. I think the Knicks look great offensively. And if they can hover around where they are defensively, and if they have those three wings, heart bridges in N and OB playing at this level and Mitchell Roberts and healthy, I think they can kind of hover around a slightly above average defense. That's the roadmap. Like they're checking every box you wanted the Knicks to check in the post-tibs era. They've been phenomenal all season. They are, you know, talking about championship contenders. They are in that category. And a lot of that is because they're in the Eastern conference, but that's something that you just get to benefit from. Yeah. I think that, you know, particularly going, doing what they did against in Orlando Magic defense that really loves to, you know, limit three pointers, which they did a pretty good job of in that game and forced Jaylen Brunson into a lot of Iso ball. I thought the Knicks handled it really well. I expect to see the Spurs do the same thing and they have the personnel to switch a ton and to kind of live with the long twos and just hope that Jaylen Brunson doesn't make all of them, which he's capable of doing. The Knicks have been phenomenal and they seem to have figured a lot of stuff out rotation wise and their offense is just, it's humming. Brunson is unbelievable. 29 a game, 49% shooting, 55% on twos. And it just feels like for a guy who's so small, when he goes up for these 17 foot jump shots, he's because of his footwork, he's opened up so much space. And if he opens up that much space, it does feel automatic. Like it's just going to go in. And Orlando, they're fine. They're going to be fine. They just need to finally get healthy at any point and figure out the Palo Frans combo. And in terms of the cup final, I don't want to belabor it. It's going to be a fun game. I'm just watching the big man matchups. Does Wemby guard heart or does Wemby guard cat? Does cat guard Harrison Barnes or does cat guard Wemby? Everything flows from there. And who guards Brunson? Boy, I would love to see Steph Castle versus Brunson to start the game. By the way, Houston Denver tonight, speaking of the other Western conference teams, that's a nice cup break headliner, Houston Denver tonight. Okay. You want to do some quick headlines with me before we get to some of the West play in teams that I want to talk about. Let's do it. Headline number one, the Cavs, three and six in their last nine games lost last night to who did they lose to last night? I already forgot. Charlotte Hornets. Oh, the Charlotte Hornets in overtime, right after sneaking out a win over the Wizards, and I love this trend that's emerging that any team who beats the Wizards in a close game, their entire postgame media is about how disappointed they are in their performance in just barely beating the Washington Wizards. Look, you can, as I've said many times, you can wave all this away. Garland's hurting. Mobley's out two to four weeks now with the calf strain, the two scariest words in professional sports right now, calf strain. And, you know, their lineup, their core lineup numbers are still all very good. Streus is missed the entire season. He's critical for their identity. Sam Merrill has been out for a little while. You can wave it all away. This is, I opened the whole season saying this is the existential existential crisis season for the Cavs. The existential crisis is here, despite all the mitigating factors that I just talked about. They are barely over 500. What are they, like three games over now? 15 and 12, which again, in the East, A, on one hand, not so bad. They're two games out of third. They're five games out of second. That's a lot. They're reaching the point where, yeah, they'll probably be in the top six. Yeah. Maybe they'll get home court in the first round. Their road to the conference finals or wherever they think they're going to get to is going to be much harder than we all assumed it was going to be before the season where they were penned in as the number one seed or number two seed in the East, the odds are they're not going to get there. Garland is hurting and that feels like a permanent thing. Every game there's five instances where you see him wince or start to limp or start to kind of kick his foot around to see how his toe is feeling. And, you know, DeAndre Hunter and Jared Allen got benched last night in the fourth quarter and overtime. DeAndre Hunter is shooting 30% on three is the defense in the rebounding are as meh as ever. I would start, I would go ahead and start shrews when he comes back healthy and put DeAndre Hunter back into the six man role. And Jared Allen getting benched is like a non event now. It happens all the time. And I'm, I'm like Def Con two for the Cavs right now. That's all. No other notes. Is Def Con two, is Def Con one the worst Def Con? You got to watch more fun military movies. Start with War Games, which came out before you were even born. Def Con one is the worst. Okay. You can go on to this, the new one that came out to Catherine Bigelow one, which I will not say anything more about other than. I saw that one. Listen to Sean Fenton. He's rant about it. I saw that one. The ending, we don't need to get into it. As you said, so then you should know your Def Con's. Yeah, I get confused. Um, the Cavs, they've been really bad. They, I thought that their effort in particular in that gaming in Charlotte, it was an early start, the effort was just atrocious in the first half. And you can see Kenny Atkinson, he's just, he just looks like a man completely fed up with what he's watching. Um, I don't, I've been teetering back and forth between excusing this team because of injuries and just being patient with them and thinking that there was a crisis. And I'm now teetering, I think, towards this is not good. And the standing stuff that you just mentioned, being in the East, only two back from, from third and the Celtics in third place, but like losing to the Warriors at home without Jimmy Butler, Steph Curry, Dream on green, uh, losing to the Celtics without Kata, who has been Wilt Chamberlain this season. And Derek White, very concerning beating the Spurs, but the Spurs did not have Castle, Cornette or Wemby. And that was kind of a competitive game a little bit. I mean, I, I just think like with Evan Mobley's injury, this could get real bad, real fast. And there's just so expensive. I don't know what you do, how you pivot. Um, it'll just be really interesting to see how they approach the trade deadline, although they don't have a lot of flexibility at all. And it's kind of like a, uh, they're in the bunker, they have who they have. And we'll see what happens. But I just think like the offensive approach, the, the, the, the three point volume is kind of getting to a level where they're just jacking up threes. And Kenny Atkins talked about Kenny Atkins and has talked about that. And it's been a little worrisome. Um, but yeah, I just, they don't have their guys, but at the same time, like you would just expect a little bit more, um, from who's playing given. Like the, the star power, Donovan Mitchell is having a tremendous season and playing really well, um, didn't play really well against the Charlotte Hornets, but I, I don't know that it's not looking good in Cleveland. It's not looking good. Well, you mentioned the threes and, you know, the other sort of, if you want to wave it all the way and assume everything's going to be fine and be the dog in the house that's on fire, um, meme, uh, is there, there've shot threes very poorly and their opponents have shot threes very well. And both of those things would figure to regress, especially for a team that lit the whole NBA on fire last year. I just don't love a lot of the threes they're getting. I mean, they're getting some great threes like they always do, but it just, their drives are way down. Their paint pressure is way down mostly because Garland isn't Garland. And they're just shooting tons and tons of threes without the requisite sort of rim pressure to create the best ones. And there's just been too many games this year where if I'm Donovan Mitchell, I'm like, I get, do I have to shoot 35 times again? Like, do I have to do this again? Because I'm getting kind of tired of shooting 35 times. I like shooting. I like scoring. I'd like to not shoot 35 times. I'd like to go back to last year where I was praised for sacrificing my own offense for the sake of the team. And now I've done this 180 where it's like, all right, I guess I gotta shoot 40 times tonight for us to win headline. Number two, Zion's back. I checked the box score this morning. I did not watch Pelicans bulls last night. Uh, and I was like, Oh, Zion forgot about Zion came off the bench, played 15 minutes with Derek Queen, which is the pairing. I'm interested to watch and see how that works. And they were plus seven together. I don't want to, I've talked a lot about the pelicans. The only thing that's interesting, they got a couple of wins recently. Uh, they've won two in a row and they're up to five and 22. They're only a game behind the Kings. They're only a game and a half or two games, really behind the Clippers. Uh, they're now tied with the Pacers and wins. Pacers are six and 20 or one, one win behind the Pacers. They're kind of tightening up, uh, the, and the one, and with the wizards winning the sort of tank race is temporarily a little tighter than it looked even a week or a week and a half ago. And that obviously impacts the value at the tighter that gets or the more wins that New Orleans gets that pick that the Hawks hold, um, becomes an asset that is a little bit more, and it's a great asset regardless, but it's a different kind of asset when the pelicans are one of the two worst teams in the NBA with a bullet versus in this clutter of like the five or six worst teams in the NBA. And that brings us to headline number four. Um, Chris stops for Zingas is going to be out at least another couple of weeks with illness related issues. We hope he gets well. I just don't know what to make of the Hawks. I don't know what that means for the Hawks. They remain to me the most interesting, Janice team, and that they hold that pick that half belongs to Milwaukee. They hold half a piece of Milwaukee's pick next year. Um, they have the big expiring semi expiring salary and Trey young, although I'm not sure how expiring it is. They have Reese's shea. They, I think, um, like San Antonio and Houston are playing so well that the upheaval factor and young talent factor mitigates against them, making any crazy, any sort of earth shattering decisions right now as we talked about. I don't, we're not, I'm not going to do the whole Janice trade landscape. They, they are the one team I could see looking in the mirror and saying, Hey, look, if this poor Zingas thing is just, it's not going to happen. Like we just can't, are not going to be able to count on him. We're currently playing Moe Gay and Asa Newell as our backup centers behind the Congo who's been outstanding. Um, and we think we can make a leap, like a real leap with the honest, both this year and we think our roadmap for the next three or four years is like way, way better with the honest than without Janice because we're not sure what's going to happen with Trey. Like there's a lot of factors that would sway me to think pretty hard about it. And this poor Zingas thing is one of them. Now it would also make me think, should I just see what the price point is for Anthony Davis and just try to do that maybe? Cause I look at the Hawks and I was a huge Hawks optimist before the season. And they're 15 and 12, they're playing fine. They've been a little bit better without Trey than with Trey, but they just look kind of like an average team to be like, they're just not, they're, they're not as good as I thought they were going to be. I don't think Trey returning is going to really change that. Their total point differential for the season is plus 15. I just think they're not good enough to really do anything serious in the playoffs. And I just wonder what they think of that combined with the fact that I don't, they know much more about poor Zingas than you and I do. But from the outside looking in, it's hard to look at him and be like, oh yeah, we'll just pencil him in for like playing every playoff game if we get there. Yeah, it's a bummer for sure. I thought he had his health situation under control. I'm sure that's extremely frustrating for him and all the best. Hope he gets well soon. I guess when I watch the Hawks, my expectations for them have kind of dipped a little bit. They're just, their defense has been very up and down. And when I watch them, I just, I kind of just focus in on Jalen Johnson and see just how much better he is getting because he's just a nightly triple double threat. And when he has the ball in his hands, basically anything can happen. He's, he's been brilliant this season. And he, he kind of come into this year. I thought he was more like a flow player who would just kind of not really be able to pick his spots, but just kind of go with the flow of the, of the game and, you know, make reads on the fly, be in transition. But like this year, he's really the three balls falling, which is really nice. But he's like getting to kill spots and he just has a lot more poise to his game offensively. So I've been enjoying him. But, you know, I don't really expect too much from the Hawks in the short term right now. Well, and the other thing with Jalen Johnson is as great as he's been and he should make the All Star team. I do look at him and I wonder, there's sort of a chaotic team, like a frenetic team offensively, a lot of cuts, a lot of movement, a lot of improvisation, a lot of like possessions that get messy. And then they clean them up with like kind of interior passing and improv plays. I do watch them and think, is he ready to be crunch time, slow game, elite defense? Like, does he have enough at this point to really run an offense and be a go to scoring option in those scenarios? And I'm not sure that's the case. And that's fine. Like that could be fine. He's very young. He needs awesome. And he should be a no brainer All Star. Like his defense and his rebound need to be a little better, by the way, which like, again, he's a triple double threat. But if you watch them, he misses some pretty key box outs here and there every game. But then you have to wonder, like Jalen Johnson plus Yanis plus a Kongu, does that three some work, if you go that direction? Actually, I think it probably does. But I don't know. I just, kind of a man year for the Hawks in a half decade for the Hawks. But, you know, things looking up, either way, things are looking up. That's the good thing for the Hawks. Either way, no matter what you do, you're going to have some interesting stuff this offseason. And by the way, if you just vaporize Porzingus, because before the season there was this like, well, if they extend Porzingus, what's the number going to be like? I would assume from the Hawks perspective, that's over. And I can have a lot of cap flexibility going forward as a result, almost no matter what I do. Yeah. And I don't know. I liked Ace of Nool had a pretty good game against the Sixers last night. I thought he was good. Yeah, he looked, looks spry. He had good touch. He made some really nice passes that I didn't know he had in him. So that's positive. And Nikhil Alexander Walker has also been tremendous for them this season in a bigger role than I'm sure they or he anticipated. But, but yeah, I just, I kind of echo everything you said about the Hawks and just sort of the security blanket of this pick from the New Orleans Pelicans has to feel good. Shout out Paul George, by the way. 35 points on 11 of 21 shooting has been quietly exactly what the Sixers need him to be in a maxi world. 17 a game on decent shooting. And I looked up, I looked up some pick and roll numbers. I ostensibly looked them up to talk about John Morant, which we will do of all 189 ball handlers who have run at least 50 pick and rolls this season. Paul George ranks fifth in points per play directly out of those pick and roll. So he shoots or a guy one pass away shoots. And number one, with a bullet, in overall points per possession for his team on those plays. Number two is another headliner. Number two on that list is bones Highland, who has stepped into the starting lineup for the Minnesota Timberwolves with aunt out the last couple of games has stepped ahead of Rob Dillingham and Jalen Clark in the wolves rotation and has played the best ball of his career and has sort of sustained, calm, chill, okay, just make the right play. Don't force it all the time. And is playing, if this, I need to see it for a little longer defensively, it's always going to be an adventure. But if he has given Chris Finch another bit of an option with Mike Conley's health always up and down, it's just I'm just I'm just watching bones. That's all. It's a big deal, you know, for the Minnesota Timberwolves. I thought his first real taste of being in the rotation against the Suns. I watched that game last week. He played really well. He gave them energy, he hit some shots, did not watch the Kings game. But I was, I heard this thing that Austin Rivers said recently about bones. And Austin was his teammate. Boy, it is awesome. I want someone, I don't think my wife likes me as much as Austin Rivers loves Bones Highland. My God. And he's little on the bench role. I don't, by the way, I don't love the like analyst on the bench thing for NBC. It's just, it's a lot, there's just a lot of talking. And I'm not sure it's additive in a way that it's meant to be additive. But he was in that role and he just loves Bones Highland. Yeah. But he did say a point I thought was interesting. And maybe I'm forgetting the early days in Denver and how weird it was for him. But he's always been on good teams. And he's always had been on teams with a lot of depth and not a lot of, not a lot of opportunity. And so this could be Bones Highland's opportunity to show off his skill. And he's always had a lot of talent offensively. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see. And real quick on the NBC announcer point, I kind of feel bad for the play by play guy. I feel like he's kind of on an island and lonely is how I would put it. Yeah, it's a strange setup. Maybe it'll grow on me. But it should be noted the general manager for all the flak Bones has taken over the years, the general manager who brought him to Denver brought him to Minnesota too. So if Tim Connelly likes a player, you got to pause and say, okay, what am I maybe missing? Because Tim Connelly's track record speaks for itself. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA season on FanDuel, it's all about the boost because game days mean your chance to boost your bet and make every play pay off. That's right. All customers, all of you get a 25% SGP and Parley profit boost. The games never stop on the FanDuel. You've got more ways to make every win bigger. So lock in your bets, boost your odds and make every night count with FanDuel official sports betting partner of the NBA. Must be 20 or over and president select states are 18 and over and president DC, Kentucky or Wyoming opt in required bonus issued is not withdrawal of both profit boost tokens for six and supply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER-RG-HELP.com call 1-888-789-77777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Okay. I wanted to hit three Western Conference play. I want to do Western Conference play in Mania today just because there's some teams I haven't hit that hard. It hit them in a while. Zooming out, the West has sort of maybe begun to sort itself out at least preliminarily. We have a top six that I don't think is going anywhere. These are going to be the top six teams. They've been the top six for a while. Phoenix is a strong number seven. I think Phoenix and Golden State probably belong in their own mini tier at seven and eight. And then Memphis, Dallas, Portland, Utah are all kind of jostling for spots nine and 10. And then a tier below them for now Clippers, Kings, Pelicans. I think the Pelicans are going to elevate a tier. I definitely don't think the Kings are going to elevate a tier. I think the Clippers could just because of where their incentives point and where Utah's incentives point is we'll get to. But I think there's some interesting teams in here. Can we start with Portland? Portland has only played 10 home games, fewest in the league, 16 road games. They played the second toughest schedule. They are 10 and 16. Fields disappointing, 18th in offense. That feels about right given that this is the team that can't shoot straight and they've had no Drew Holiday, no scoot Henderson, no point guard, no traditional point guard period for a while, have played some games without Klingen and Time Lord recently. 20 second in defense is the part that feels disappointing given how this team was built. And again, Drew Holiday, Blake Wesley was a menace, Thible has barely played. They're a completely different team with Klingen on the floor in terms of defense and rebounding still feels disappointing. They are 27th and opponent free throw rate. That's horrible. 26th in defense of rebounding rate, although they are almost like number one with Klingen and number 30 without Klingen. And opponents are scorching hot from mid range. So that would cool off a little bit. There's some interesting, this is a team that if they got healthy, and I have no idea what's going on with scoot at this point, but if they got healthy and particularly if they got like the Drew Holiday that showed up for them for the first 10, 12 games of the season, they could put something to not crazy, but I think they're better than their record. And one of the reasons I think they're better than their record is Shaden Sharpe's last week has been very encouraging to me. I'm very reluctant to sort of say that there's anything transformational happening because I've had these little blips with him before and then he goes back to playing the way he usually plays. But there's some, even beyond Avdia, who's been amazing all year. And one of the big stats of the Blazers is 117 points per 100 possessions with Avdia on the floor. That's like a top 10-ish number. 99.8 with him on the bench is embarrassing even given the injuries. I think there's some stuff worth looking at under the hood here though. What's interesting to, or are you just out on the Blazers? Like this team's just disappointing and bad. No, I enjoy watching them. I could, I think Denny Avdia has been one of the stories of the season. I mean, you just hit such a great stat. No player has had a more positive impact on their team's offense this season than him. Leads the league in drives. Just has kind of mastered the, I'm going to rip my arms down low and make you, I'm going to dangle the ball in front of you and you're going to slap my forearm and I'm going to get to the free throw line. His playmaking has been excellent. He's like fourth in potential assists in the entire league. And that has been necessary because, as you said, they do not have a point card, have not had a point card for quite some time. I've had fun watching this team. I, you know, the Shaden Sharp experience is, I think I've been pretty down on him this year. I thought he was, he's been pretty disappointing given just his shot selection, but to be fair to him, I don't think that he's well suited to be in an offense that does not have a point card and someone to settle things down and organize sets. And also that game against the Warriors that he had last night was just absolutely ridiculous. And he was doing whatever he wanted and hitting absurd shots, getting to the basket, which he can do at will. So like the outlines of a superstar are still there when you look at him play, just given his athleticism and how dynamic he is, but I just wish the decision making was a little bit better. And that could come along. He's still very young, but I like the Blazers. And I think you talked about incentives before we started. This team, I think is the only one really, or out of the three, this team has the most incentive, I would say, to make the playoffs and play in a playoff series, given their draft situation and just given kind of their composition and how they want to progress as an organization. I think that they are the team that really wants it this year. Well, and after last year where they had that hot second half run and they kind of got into play and race and they talked about how much they wanted to get in there and fell short, six of their next 11 games come against the Kings, the Mavs, the Pelicans, the Clippers, and the Jazz. A bunch of them are at home. So if they want to start to make something over the season, it's going to happen now. I agree with you on Shade and Sharp for most of the season. And I say that as someone who has been pretty strongly like top 5% bullish on Shade and Sharp. He was in my most intriguing players column that never ran, Wink Wink last year. It was a wonderful section. And he's just one of those guys who you just need to bag the off the dribble 18 footer with 15 or more on the shot clock. It doesn't go in enough. It comes at the expense of better stuff. And there's too many of them. There's like four or five of them per game and it should be pretty close to zero. And last night against the Warriors, he showed you what he could do when he does bag those plays. And I'm not talking about five of seven on three. He's been hot from three lately. He's like 40% in his last 10 games. I'm talking about like lefty hesitation dribble blows by his defender. And when he does that, I'm starting to think, I don't know what's going to happen here, something bad. Two defenders converge on him and he right away kicks the ball to Jeremy Gran and the corner for a three. Then he got a hockey assistant transition a couple of plays later. There was another pick and roll in the first half. He turned the corner lefty one hand pass to the opposite corner shooter who I think missed the three. And it's like, if you can bottle those kind of decisions, bottle like instead of the 18 footer, he is so crafty off the dribble. And he's not a super physical player, but he's pretty big and he can get where he wants to go. He can get to the basket, I think more than he thinks he can get to the basket. And we saw some of that. Like there was a pick and roll where I think post dropped on defense, drop back, Quentin posted and Shayton Sharp was like, dude, you have no chance. I'm just going right around you and you got an end one. Last night, if I'm Tiago Splitter, I'm sitting him down and I'm watching film of all of these plays and being like, you're not going to score 35 a night on 12 of 18 shooting, but you can play like an all star if your decision making is like this. And it's kind of been like that for the last three or four games. I'm always like, I don't want to be Charlie Brown with the football and with Lucy. So I'm going to be cautious, but I've loved the last week in the Shayton Sharp experience. And if that's a real thing, they are going to become must watch TV because he's a, he's also just a crazy dunk waiting to happen. Yeah, that play you just called out the one-handed pass or the left handed pass to Jeremy Grant. There was a blow by a buddy healed a few plays before that I had in my notes. Sharp makes three passes. We know he can do it. So just like with an exclamation point, like that was it's three passes on a possession for him are steps in the right direction. And you just haven't seen it as much. But as you said, he's kind of teetering in that direction. And when you add that to just the lightning bolt athleticism and the ability to get to the basket and the turnarounds and the, I mean, he should be able to get to the free throw line at will. So he's been fun. He's been really fun. And that isn't to say anything about the dunks and the putbacks and all that sort of stuff. But he's been, he's been really good over the past few weeks. He's a top five in the entire NBA top five of like, oh boy moments when you watch, when like, if he gets any kind of clear space in front of him, you immediately perk up because he can fucking fly. And he likes to go after people. It could be in the half court. It could be a leak out in transition. It's like, it's just, I sit up at my seat in anticipation. It's like peak Zach Levine basically from, you know, bulls, wolves days when you just didn't know what was going to happen. Soco is not bad. Got wizards freaking way of him. He's not bad. The only downside on Denny, I don't, I don't, I don't take any pleasure in saying this, Michael Pina. I think he's taken the whining at the ref's throne from Luca because it's just incessant. It's every single play. He doesn't get a call. It's the same palms up. Like what yelling at the rest? It's like every time, if I were a ref, I'd be like, you know what, just for fucking spite, I'm not giving you the next three calls. Stop yelling on every single play. Stop whining on every single play. Who do you want to do next? Memphis or Utah? Let's do Memphis. The Memphis Grizzlies 11 and 14, seven and three in their last 10 games. All but one of those wins came against the pentagram of hell in the Western Conference, the Kings, the Pelicans, the Mavericks, the Grizzlies themselves, so they can't beat themselves and the Clippers. And then the other one was against Portland. And just as soon as Zach Eadie got rolling, he's out again for a few weeks to deal with this ankle injury. Zach Eadie is plus 113 in 284 minutes. In 11 total games, he is 42nd overall and overall plus minus. That is a crazy number, even though it came against mostly bad teams. He's out. Ja Morant is back. I thought he looked pretty engaged at least on both ends of the floor against Utah on Friday or Saturday, whenever they played Utah one in Memphis. But he's had a miserable season across the board. And with Eadie out, Morant in, it's going to be very interesting to see how Memphis sort of pivots, if they can keep stringing some wins together. Obviously, they haven't had Ty Jerome the whole season. They haven't had Scottie Pippa Jr., Brandon Clark. Like it's a pretty deep injury list of guys that are good. But it's just a shame that Eadie was playing so well and the team had sort of walked into a new identity around him. And he goes away. Morant comes back and we'll just have to see. But I don't know what's interesting to do about these guys. Ja Morant, anytime you watch him play, particularly this season, well, he's capable of anything at any moment. This year, it hasn't been great. One of the more inefficient players in all of basketball. I mean, I'm trying to think of something positive to say. I mean, I love watching Cedric Howard. He's really great. And kind of coming along, he had a, after a hot start, kind of a down month, I would say, relatively speaking, look like a rookie being in the starting lineup, but really poised, really knows how to just like draw contact. He's been great. Love players who have a wingspan. He's the longest plus wingspan in all of basketball for his position. I guess like what I really want to talk about is Jared Jackson Jr. And just the disappointment that he has shown this season. And I guess there's been some frustration with regards to how the rotation is kind of the shorter stints and the rotation for him and his inability to catch a rhythm. He's averaging five and a half fewer points than last year, fewer shots. I think defensively, he's really kind of taken a step back. And the Memphis Grizzlies are allowing opponents to shoot 70% at the rim when he's on the court, which is just like an aberration for him. That doesn't normally happen. So he's been really interesting in so far as how he has struggled given the extension, max extension that they just gave him and just kind of where this organization is and when or if they pivot away from these 22, 26 year olds that they thought they would be able to build around. You know what would help extend Jared Jackson Jr.'s stints on the floor is not fouling all the time in the stupidest possible ways, like illegal screens where your feet are eight feet apart and your elbows are out. Those kinds of things would help you stay on the floor a little longer. He's been a little disappointing for sure. They're 13th in defense, which actually surprised me when I looked it up because it just felt like with triple J having just an okay year, Clark being out, obviously they've lost some good perimeter defenders via trade, etc. in the last few years that they've lost a little bit of that identity and that edge, but 13th is okay. 25th in offense is a disaster. And this, like I mentioned, Moran looked engaged against Utah. He had a chase down block. He had a back cut score or I can't remember if he drew a foul or made a layup. He had a couple of classic Moran transition passes where he slows down and waits for his teammates to catch up to him and hit Santiago Dama for a lob. It's like a trail lob kind of and Jalen Welch, who's been on fire for a month now basically for a three. I mean, his numbers are bad. We know they're bad. They've been worse with Moran on the floor. The under the hood numbers are even kind of more disturbing than the surface level numbers. So here are some of them. Only 29% of his shots have come at the basket according to cleaning the glass. That's the lowest rate of his career. He's shooting 52% at the basket. That's a career low by far. He's shooting 40% on like floater range twos. That's tied for a career low. On the pick and roll, I mentioned the pick and roll rankings with Paul George and bones at the top. There are 189 total guys who have run at least 50 pick and rolls in the league, almost 200 on points directly out of those pick and rolls. Jon Morant rakes 137th on points per possession, 161st. There are 93 players in the league who have run at least 50 ISOs on offense this year. Jon Morant is 91st in points per possession, averaging 0.66 points directly out of ISOs. And it just feels like a lot of these drives are almost prayer shots. Like he's pulling up at the dotted line or in these weird like 13, 14 feet away from the rim positions and trying to step in and just like hurling these shots up towards the top of the backboard and just they're like hope. They're either hope for a foul or hope that they just go in randomly shots. It's not even the numbers. It's just how it looks, the power, the fearlessness, the ability to actually explode toward the basket just don't seem to be there the way they need to be there. And this whole thing falls away obviously if Morant is a shell of himself. Yeah, 40% in the floater range for someone who's shooting 18.5% from behind the three point line is just like non-negotiable for just about anyone who has the ball in their hands as often as he does. I thought that the Utah Jazz over the weekend, the Jazz beat them and like the way they were guarding Jon Morant in the fourth quarter was like, it reminded me of how the Lakers guarded Rajan Rondo in the 2010 finals. It's funny you say that because it was something like you don't see bad shooters guarded this extremely much anymore because teams have gotten so smart about like we're going to talk about Isaiah Collier in a second. Like if you're going to go under screens against me, I'm going to set the screen lower and lower. I'm going to race you to the spot behind the screen. And if I'm Jon Morant, I'm going to beat you there. And so you don't see it was like the Spurs Cavs finals in 2007 where they treated LeBron like the worst shooter who ever lived. It's funny you thought the same thing. Yeah, and he just couldn't capitalize. And they were like, it was the defense of execution by Utah was so poor. Like with regard, you know, Jon Morant would try to basically hunt Keontae George down the stretch and Keontae wanted no part of switches and he would try to hedge and recover. And there was one play where he like hedged and I guess there was a miscommunication. They thought they were supposed to switch and he just turned his back on Jon Morant and tried to walk back to his man and Joe couldn't do anything with it. So that plays like that. It's just weird. It's like, you would think that the attention to detail with someone who is so explosive and dynamic would be a little bit finer and the Utah Jazz aren't a great defense. So that kind of is what it is. But he's just been, I know it was his first game back in a little while and we'll see kind of how he progresses over the next couple weeks and finds his rhythm. But he was terrible before. And I just wondered at what point is this the new Jon Morant? It's tough to watch. I don't know what else to say about it. I mean, I don't mean this facetiously. I was happy to see his engagement level given the comments a month ago and he was totally sort of checked out on the coaches and you got to ask the organization. He played hard on both ends of the floor and that's step one. Coward, he's a stud. Like there's nothing else to say. He's a stud. He's huge. He's going to shoot fine from three, defends his ass off and plays super hard. So if you watch that game, you know, there was one play where he was a fast break. He went up for a lob, couldn't finish it, fell out of bounds hard and got up so fast that he put back the follow up miss. He got a rebound. Maybe he drew a foul, but he like, the point is he fell hard. He got up so fast, the Grizzly shot again right away and he was already into rebounding position to either draw a foul or score a basket. I couldn't love him anymore. Okay, let's talk about Utah. 9 and 15 had a tough schedule. They have the marketing issue, hang over them. Maybe it's a non-issue now. Ace Bailey is now a full-time starter. Collier is back sharing some minutes with Keyonte George. Those minutes have gone very poorly. Keyonte George looks like a real guy. I had actually a coach text me over the weekend. You get these texts every once in a while from coach to me like, do you think Keyonte is like a real guy or is this just a good team? I mean, a bad team, good stats guy. I was like, he looks pretty real to me. Like every, not saying he's an all-star right now or even maybe in the future, but I think he's got a shot to make an all-star team in the future. Every part of his game has matured and gotten better. Unfortunately for Jazz fans who would like them to chase the play-in spot, they owe a top eight protected pick to the Oklahoma City Thunder that becomes nothing, no obligation at all if it ends up in the top eight and the Jazz Keep It. The Jazz currently, as we were recording this on Monday around noon Eastern time, have the eighth worst record in the NBA, which would give them like a slight majority chance of keeping the pick, something like a 60% chance. That ain't good enough given the stakes here. I think the Jazz are going to try to slide their way up the lottery standings and get to a point where they're a little bit more comfortable. That probably relies on them getting fifth or sixth. That's going to be an interesting sell to Lowry Markinen, who I think is tired of losing, but also loves Utah. I've heard his family loves Utah. I think both he and the Jazz, the ideal outcome is we eventually win here and that winning on some level has to start next season with another draft pick. Our young guy's getting even better. Unless they get absolutely bowled over, which is possible because Lowry Markinen is averaging 28 points a game and is almost like big man Steph Curry in the way he moves around the floor and creates openings for everybody else. Unless they get absolutely bowled over. I actually think they're serious about keeping them this year and riding this out. There is some interesting stuff going on here. I don't know if you want to start with Ace or George or whatever, but the incentives just are going to point them where they're going to point them. Let's start with Kiante George. I think he's been a huge bright spot for the Utah Jazz this year, 22 and 7 efficiently. Only six players or seven players have made more free throws this season, which is a pretty eye-popping number. I have a comp for you for Kiante. I don't know if this is too pie in the sky, but I feel like it's realistic. Is there a Tyrese Maxi type of leap in here for him? I mean, you're talking 30 a game on efficient shooting. I don't think that's insane. I don't think he's quite that level of athlete, but his numbers are very good. He's averaging 23 and 7 on 45% shooting. I think there's certainly a leap somewhere between here and where Maxi has been this season, for sure. Like I said, I think he could make it all-star game in the future, but I'm not sure he's going to be. You're talking about Tyrese Maxi's in the conversation for second team all-NBA. Maybe, you know, I haven't done it right now. It's a best-case scenario, for sure. I was just kind of looking at numbers combined with, you know, he goes through these stretches where he's just, he's a blur and he's almost unguardable. He's hitting ridiculous shots off the dribble and kind of getting where he wants. And he just reminds me of what Maxi was a few years ago right before he won Most Improved Player. But no, he's been, there's really not a lot of positive things to say, and I think that they will be a team that is, you know, as you said, they are not going to be winning games intentionally over the next few months. I mean, at some point, they want to keep their pick, obviously. I'm also right with you with Lowry Markinon. Right before the season started, I was kind of obsessed with him getting traded, particularly to the Detroit Pistons. Now, I kind of just think he's too good to trade, and I wouldn't trade him unless, as you said, you've got some kind of Godfather offer out there, but I don't know where that's coming from given his contract. But he's just, the way he just enables Will Hardy's playbook to look like it does, and Will Hardy's playbook is one of my favorite in the league. I just love watching the Utah Jazz play basketball aesthetically. I love all the off-ball movement, the screens, the cuts. I love how he uses bigs to pass, and even though use of Nurkitsch will throw the ball out of bounds every now and again, just having him at the high post and letting him make reads on the fly has been kind of fun to see. Also, Kyle Filippowski utilizing his vision and his playmaking as a big, really fun. But I would kind of hold on to Lowry, and I would get this other pick. I kind of like the progress that Ace Bailey has made after a very slow start. He looks like someone who the coaching staff is increasingly trusting with regards to just how they're using him in the offense. Lowry is, he's only 28. You have him under contract for the next four or five years, and he can fit anywhere, as you said, seven-foot Steph Curry. Not as good of a shooter, but someone who moves like Steph Curry and has the gravity. I just mean that in the sense of this. Like what you just said, but also he only are just two assisting game. And it would be great if Lowry Marked in were a little bit more of a creator for others with the ball. But his movement is his passing, basically. His movement is opening up gaps everywhere that other people fill. Look, everybody in Utah coaches across the board love Ace Bailey. They've been so impressed with how hard he plays. He's playing hard on defense, like not making as many mistakes defensively as you would think a untested rookie would make. They're throwing him into pick and roll a little bit as a screener, and he's made some nice plays out of that as a roll passer kind of guy. I think you have to be happy, despite the numbers being underwhelming. Collier is a little bit of a mystery. Like if he's not going to look at the basket from three, it's hard for him. Fun stat, the Collier, Keyante George minus 131, that duo, in only 184 minutes. That's pretty hard to do. And it made me go look up the worst plus minus combos in the entire NBA just for fun. And as you would imagine, there's some wizards and some pelicans near the top of the list. Bob Carrington and Keyante George minus 164, but in twice as many minutes as the Keyante George-Collier combo. The most depressing one, it just couldn't be more depressing. Number three on the list, checking it at minus 147 in 532 minutes. DeMar DeRosin and Zach Levine. It's the saddest that exists. I will say when Collier can get downhill, he's kind of a force though. And when Lowry is playing with Flip at center or Kevin Love at center, they can use him as a ball screener a little bit more because they can space around him. It's just there's some interesting stuff going on. And Will Hardy's yelling at people. That's fun. Okay, last thing. One prediction, gone wrong. Michael Pina, I'll start. I'll make it easy for you. Okay. I went hard on, I think to quote myself, I went hard on what is the case to be optimistic about the Boston Celtics this year? Their depth is horrible. They have no front line. Like, what are we going to really get this kind of season out of? Kata, Chris Boucher, Luca Garza, who's their backup five? Who's their backup four? Josh Minot flamed out where he went. Sam Hauser has got to be ready for a lot more. Hugo Gonzalez, I'm counting on this guy to do stuff. Jordan Walsh, is he even going to play? Is he going to be in the G League? The Boston Celtics should be laughing at me. Their coaches took note. I know of what I said. They are 15 and 10 with a top five offense in the NBA. Kata is playing his ass off. Jordan Walsh is maybe the revelation of the season. Peyton Fritchard's offense and shooting have sorted itself out. Jalen Brown has been a mid-range efficiency machine. I worry that we're going to see a little bit of a dip there because he takes a lot of hard shots. This team plays hard. They're outscoring opponents by almost six points per 100 per game, rather. That's almost tied with the Pistons. I can't believe how good the Celtics are and I can't believe how wrong I was. And I do think plus six per game is a little over their head. I do think they're hanging in this top six race for the entire season. I think they're legit this good, almost this good if healthy. And I was dead wrong. Apologies to the Boston Celtics. I'm a moron. Michael Pina. And I said, I said, you can't pick the Clippers. You have to pick a non-Clippers prediction gone wrong. So what's yours? Well, sadly, I did not pick the Clippers as you instructed me to, but I did also pick the Boston Celtics. Look at that. Great minds. I thought they would be in the lottery. I thought I was a big gap year believer. I thought that the intention of the organization, in spite of Joe Missoula being Joe Missoula, was to not win basketball games this year. I was basing that off on the personnel moves that they made over the summer. And I will say, I still think it's technically possible for them to fall off a little bit based on some of the stuff that you said. And I'm committed to not believing what my eyes are telling me when I watch them sometimes, and just where they are in the standings. Now the ninth seeded Hawks are two games back. But for an entire month, they have the best offense in the NBA, which is just one of the more wild things I've seen since covering the league. And I'll zoom in on the biggest reason why for me, and one of the reasons why I had such doubt on them was Jalen Brown as primary option with no other All-Stars on the roster. And Derek White's fantastic, Peyton Pritchard's fantastic. But I just had no, I did no belief that he would be able to not only lead the league in, I expected him to shoot a ton. He leads the league in shots per 100 possessions, shoots the crap out of the ball. I had no expectation for him to do that. Also, play make, you know, he's like top 10, top five in true usage. He does a ton of play making for this team. And also not be super inefficient. Like he's, his true shooting is right about league average, a little bit above league average. He's getting to the free throw line. He's finishing at the basket. He's attacking in transition. And he's taking really difficult shots. I mean, 64% of his shots are unassisted. His previous career high was 54%. When he's on the court this year, the Boston Celtics offensive rating is at the highest point it's ever been in his entire career. So when I look at him, like he's all NBA, he's definitely an All-Star. And aesthetically, in terms of how he gets his shots and like where they come from and how well he's hitting them, he kind of just reminds me of like a less efficient SGA who also turns the ball over a lot more. And that sounds insulting, but I promise it's a compliment. So that, that's, that's, I think like the Celtics are shocking me, but Jaylen Brown also, I know he's won finals MVP. I know he's been made an all NBA team, but he's, he's really surprised me this season. He's been outstanding. And you know, look, I said they're going to hang in this three to nine race all season. I had them penciled in for the lottery. I took the under on them. I think they were 41 and a half or 40 and a half or something like that. And only one game right now, literally one game separates third and ninth in the East. So there's going to be a lot of jostling. I don't think they're as good as a plus six scoring margin. There, if they take an injury like any other, these teams are going to be pretty vulnerable. If one of their top three or four guys gets injured, but you just, the reason I'm picking them is I could not imagine a 25 game sample, like a third of a season, a real sample in which they were this good and outscored their opponents by this much kudos to the players. Joe Mazzullo and his staff has done a great job. Michael Pina, ringer.com got to call them up. Apparently I got to read it. I got to check it out. I haven't looked yet this morning. I can't wait. You're writing for us like gangbusters, everything is must read. Thank you for coming on. And it's time for a little reunion to talk about the golden state warriors. Michael Pina, thank you, sir. Appreciate you, Zach. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move quick like a fast breakdown in the court. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery means everything arrives on time. Holiday shopping, man. It sneaks up like a surprise double team. Suddenly you're scrambling. We've got a kid. So believe me, Prime is running the show this time of year. Gifts, wrapping paper, last minute, uh-oh moments. It's all covered. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need some holiday magic? It's on Prime. Head to amazon.com slash prime to shop now. Look who it is. A little bit of a reunion. Nick Friedel. I worked with you once, I think. Can't remember where, but we definitely did. How you doing, buddy? It is great to see you again, my man. It's been way, way too long. It's great to find you again in a new place. And you know, as always, when I see you, there are many, many things to discuss and things haven't changed in that regard at all. You're a long way from the bulls suck beat and the bulls still suck, Nick Friedel. They still suck. You're on the warriors. The amount of people of Mr. Low, when I go into an NBA arena, still to this day, and you trademarked this, you coined this like 10 years ago, but they'll see me and they'll be like, Friedel, are you still on the bulls suck beat? And I'm like, no, no, you know, it's different now. I'm back with the warriors, but the bulls suck beat has, has not only, we stood the test of time, it is stronger than ever because I was there about a week ago and oh, my, the suck meter is running off the charts right now. I'm glad I've made a lot of positive contributions to the discourse in society over the years. You are now covering for the athletic, the Golden State Warriors who round out our play in discussion in the West today, 13 and 14. They lost two games over the weekend. One to the Minnesota Timberwolves without Anthony Edwards, one to the Portland Trail Blazers without any point guards. Steph Curry scored 87 points combined in those two games on 30 of 54 shooting, 18 of 34 on threes. And I think he made 12 against Portland last night. And the Warriors lost both games. They lost despite getting Jimmy Butler, Andrew Montgrain back for the Blazers game and Bella Jimmy played the, the Timberwolves game. They are a very strange team, Nick Friedle, because you can look at a lot of numbers and be like, all right, they're better than 13 and 14. They're going to play right, they're playing right back up to standings. They are 20th in offense, which seems puzzling. Fourth in defense, which seems outrageously good. They are plus 12 per 100 possessions when Steph, Dramon and Jimmy are all on the floor. That seems good. They're plus four per 100 possessions according to clean and glass when Dramon plays center. That's good. They're plus six and a half per 100 possessions when Jimmy Butler is on the floor and Steph Curry is off the floor. That's exactly the design of the team. And then you, like, how are they this bad? Like, how are they 13 and 14 despite all these positive indicators? Part of it is just the starting lineup roulette that will never end. I just, I guess they're just never going to have a starting five. Al Horford's been injured for a while. D'Anthony Melton just came back. Jonathan Caminga has been banished from their rotation. And holy shit, have I taken an L on my Jonathan Caminga optimism because it's over. It's as over as over can be for Jonathan Caminga in the Warriors. And obviously they'll have some trades to make. I don't know, man, 13 and 14, disappointing. And even if they played their way up to standings, they're five games out of a top six seed. They're looking like they're going to have to go through the play. And again, which by definition counts as a disappointment for them. No question. And we don't have enough time to break down all the different layers to this team. What I would tell you, Zach, is the Warriors are the most interesting 13 and 14 team I've ever seen. There is something new every single day with this group. They are a content machine. To me, they lapped the field this year in being interesting. There is something going on and there always is with the Warriors. Content per win. Interesting comment per win. Content per win. They are absolutely running circles around everybody else. I think to answer your first question, and there are many, many questions with this team, the problem is they've been injured, Steph's missed nine games, Draymond's been hurt, Jimmy's been kind of off and on. He's got a lingering knee issue. The much larger problem though is the inconsistency. If you were banking on the Warriors to have a good year this year, you were banking on Brandon Pajemski, Kaminga and Moody to take another step collectively in their development. That has not happened this season. And there are a lot of reasons why that is as well. But that to me, when you look at the Warriors, and I still, I think these last two games are going to make me shake my head and alter my projection a little bit. But I still, when the season started, I thought the only two teams I knew for sure in the West could beat them in a series for sure were the Thunder and the Nuggets. After that, I was kind of like, I think they have a legit chance against anybody else. As I watched them now two months into the year, I go, aye, aye, if you're getting these type of games from Steph and you're still losing, you've got big, big problems. And I think what we've seen is Steph, when he's out there still playing at an incredibly high level, Draymond defensively still playing at a high level. He didn't play well against Portland. Better days are ahead for him. Jimmy, I'm starting to worry about a little bit if I'm a Warriors fan, because I don't think that knee is right. I don't think he's jumping the same way and has the same push that he needs. And Zach, all these years you and I have been having the Jimmy conversation, when he wanted to turn it on, he could and he could just dominate that part right now. Doesn't seem to be the same. And I think frankly, he's still struggling with trying to figure out exactly how to play around Steph and the rest of the group, even though it looked really good for that first stretch after the trade on the whole, though, the rest of the pieces on this roster that were supposed to be there just having played at the level they need. And you mentioned Horford, I mean, he has provided him basically nothing for the first couple months and he's been hurt the whole time. So there are a lot of pronounced flaws. They've got to fix whatever they can near the deadline. But I just don't think they're going to get to where they wanted to this year, which is too bad because Steph is playing out of his mind. Yeah, I've been saying for two years, I think it's over. I think it's over for now. And I think it's over for the post-stef future in terms of like, is there a championship nucleus here? When they got off, that said, I thought they were a very good team. I took the over on their wind total, which I think was 45 and a half or 46 and a half, something like that. And when they came out playing super well, I said I had shut the window and I'm keeping it shut, but I'm just opening the latch a little bit because if a number of things break right, the latch is closed now again. On Jimmy, he's been fine, but when Steph's on the bench, you expect him to go into Jimmy mode and it just kind of hasn't been there. And those lineups are living on defense more than anything that Jimmy's doing on offense, which is fine. It's part of their team. They're fourth in defense. It's been so weird that, like you look at Pajemski's numbers, he's averaging 12 a game, shooting 40% on three. Moody's averaging 12 games, shooting 38% on three. Their minutes just go up and down like this. And I'm watching that Blazers game last night as Steph is doing everything he can possibly do to will them to a win. And they roll out Steph, Pajemski, Moody, Butler, Draymond at the five. And I'm like, man, I really have always been intrigued by that. That specific five-man lineup, is that their best lineup? I've really wanted to see that lineup more. I feel like I've barely seen it. It's played like 19 minutes the entire season. And then they switch it up and put Melton, who just came back and I think will help their team in the Moody spot. And it just feels like for every possible reason, Steve Kerr just has no consistent rotation, let alone a starting five for this team. And now Kaminga has been benched and that feels over, as I said before. That helps clarify some things, but it's still so murky with all the guys that have been in and out of the lineup. And they just let as old teams tend to do, they just look a little older. When that Steph, Draymond pick and roll happens and Draymond's being guarded by a five, that used to be the most terrifying moment in the NBA. And you see little flashes here and there. Draymond four on three throws a lob here, throws a kick out there. It's just not as scary anymore, because he's lost a little bit of a step. Jimmy's lost a little bit of a step. And Jimmy's shot well on threes this year, but it doesn't really shoot them. And so he's not the spacing isn't the same as it's been. It just kind of feels all man, despite the fact that like you cannot yell this from the tree tops enough, Nick Friedel, Steph Curry is averaging 29.6 points per game. That is the third highest figure of his entire career. He is shooting 48%, 41% on threes, 60% on twos. That would be the second highest number of his career in 91, of course, from the line, almost a 50, 40, 90 season. It's insane how good he's been. And they just didn't use to, he makes 12 threes and they lose. Like that's not a thing that happens. That is the biggest red flag that there is. Now that we can curse in our new format, the way I would put it into context for you is Pat Spencer is that motherfucker. Lacks Bros are taking over the league in Memphis, the golden state, baby. So Pat Spencer is that motherfucker. Steph Curry is still the baddest motherfucker going. That dude when he gets on the floor and he's racing up and down and he's knocking down shots. And he did it a couple of times that Portland game where he puts the shot up and starts running down the floor. That wasn't it going in. He knows how good he still is. So do they. The problem is that the rest of the group just doesn't have the talent level right now to maintain the consistency. The most fascinating part in the short term of what I heard out of the post game comments last night was Dreymond repeatedly unprompted, sticking up for Steve Kerr because he's being asked about the consistency. And Zach, that was the ninth straight game where they've had a different starting five. And again, it's injury and it's Kerr looking for any answer that he can and Kerr, 20 minutes before that is saying it's on me. I'm not doing a good job this year. I have to be better and putting guys in spots to succeed. Then we walk over to Dreymond and Dreymond and he's active on social media. He's got his podcast, but he's hearing all his stuff and people are killing Kerr and saying, Kerr needs to do this and Kerr needs to do that. Dreymond's going, the fuck do you want him to do? Like he's trying everything that he can and it's just not working. So when you're trying to figure out what's going on with the Warriors, it starts with the injuries to key players, the inconsistency. But to me, as I'm watching it day by day, it's Steph is at this level. Dreymond and Jimmy are still close to him. Dreymond, especially defensively, is awesome when he's engaged and locked in. But when you pass Jimmy, and I think again, this is a huge part of it, they were expecting Jimmy to your point when Steph's off the floor to just dominate. And Jimmy wants to make the right play and doesn't want to force himself, but they want him to. They want him to go be the guy that you and I have seen and discussed for years and years. And he just hasn't been as aggressive as I think they wanted him to see. When you cross that gap though, when you get past Jimmy on this roster and it's not the same Jimmy that it's been the last couple of years, uh-oh, everybody was expecting that next wave of players to be better than what they are. And there's still time. A lot of those guys are young. They're trying to come into their own. But if you were banking on the Warriors to make that push in the West and have the success and clear that wind total, you were banking on the rest of that group to do something that they have not shown this season. And when you watch them, it's like they might have a good game. Moody had a game in New Orleans. He was hitting a bunch of threes and Pajemski is having his moments. Although I think so much of his issue is some of the things that he said before. And in the beginning of the season, rubbed some of his teammates and some people in the organization the wrong way. And the guy who has all the confidence, he doesn't have as much confidence right now. I think he's trying to work through that and the coming in a situation, he was great early. He wasn't as good. He got pulled from the starting lineup. He got hurt. He came back. He didn't play well. The end. I mean, that's where we're at. The end. Although I would caution everybody, anyone who thinks that January 15th, they're going to wave a wand and he's going to be moved. Good luck. That's just not the way that things go. But the problem with this team is the talent level. They have a lot of solid players, but they have not had a lot of players behind Steph raise the level of their own games this season. It's why they're in the place that they are. This was always what was most likely to happen is that the old guys get old and the young guys don't get good enough soon enough to save the team when the old guys get old. This is still, I think they're going to start winning more. I mean, the underlying numbers are pretty good. They're plus almost two per 100 possessions, so they should be over 500. They have a bad record in close games. Even last night, Steph bonked that layup late in the game that would have given them the lead. It's like, oh my God, he makes 12 threes and he bonks that one. It's so uncharacteristic. I think they'll correct themselves a little bit. Their turnovers are insane right now. I mean, part of the benefit of getting Jimmy Butler was he's such a low turnover player and he still is. He shrunk by himself their entire turnover rate last year and it's back up. As much as I love Jermon as a player, his turnovers are crazy. He's throwing these hit ahead passes that are getting picked off every game. He and Post miscommunicated four times last night against Portland. His turnovers are up and they're all crazy live ball, really damaging turnovers. I do think a lot of this will correct. It would really help if Warford could get healthy and give them anything. But even if it corrects, I think they're closer to a 44 and 38 team than a 50, 49 kind of wind team that I thought they were. Even if really things go right, their most likely scenario given how the standings are is they're in the seven eight game playing like hell to either face Oklahoma City, Denver or Houston in the first round. And we saw the beat down. I mean, they beat Houston last year, but it took so much out of them physically. And then Steph gets hurt, Jimmy's getting worn down and then they get rolled by the Timberwolves. It's like, it's, it's very hard to see them winning a round in the playoffs this year, let alone making a run. I'm getting more to that side day by day. The only reason that I still caution anybody to write them completely off of not being able to do anything is because of Steph. And he is, when you watch him, he's still just incredible because he can break down an entire team. But also in context, Zach, I sat there and watched him Portland. He was killing the Blazers and the crowd is going absolutely nuts the way that they don't usually do anywhere on the road, but they were into the step show and they still lost. And it was the first time he knocked down 12 threes and they lost. And that is a real big problem. But again, this is where I at least have to throw caution out there out of the almost two decades I've been doing this job. Never in my life have I seen a schedule the likes of which they're going through to the year ever. They have flown across the country three times. They've played a ton of road games. They've got some home games coming up. They've got one more trip before the end of the calendar year to the East Coast, like Toronto, Brooklyn and Charlotte. And then they are home for the vast majority of January and a chunk of February going into the break. So I think that that will allow them to take a breath. The problem though is you can't be this relying on Steph and not get enough behind him. And that's what scares me when you look at the numbers and you pointed them out defensively. They look really good. Last night in Portland, they had some terrible moments, but I think they're going to write themselves on that end of the floor. It's the offense. And that's where you need Jimmy and Kerr has mentioned it many, many times. He stabilizes them. He gives them a different look and can get to the foul line, but you need him to take over sometimes. And he's just not doing it. And Kerr said, I've got to do a better job getting him in rhythm than Draymond said. He could do a better job getting him the ball, but he's the one that said the quiet part out loud. And he said, we need Jimmy to go take the ball sometimes. And we need Jimmy to take over. And that just has not happened much this season. I think it's because when you watch him play, that knee just isn't the same. And it's been a lingering question since the end of the days in Chicago, the knee, the knee, the knee. I think it's more of a problem right now than it has been because of all the years and all the miles there. I'm glad you mentioned this schedule because it's been truly hellish for them. They've played 11 home games and 16 on the road. And you've met, just played a ton of games all over the place. That's a reason I think things will normalize. The clutch time record, I think will normalize. The defense is legit to me. And they also have a history, even dating back to 2021 when Clay was out the whole year of surging late in the season. They did it again last year. They did it to make the play into 2022. Like they have, not in 2022, they won the championship, but they've surged late in the season a lot. And I said, like they feel closer to a 45-win team than a 50-win team. To get to 45 wins from 13 and 14, you've got to be pretty good in the Western Conference the rest of the way. Like, I think they're a good team. It's just they've put themselves in, they, the schedule, injuries, et cetera, have put themselves in such a tough spot. And it does make, you see people reflect on this all the time. And it's been constant of the two-timeline thing, which was never a plan. It was an accident. It will be interesting to see, did they miss any chances to really load up around Steph? Because they did go out and get Jimmy Butler. And when they did that, and they went crazy at the end of last year, everyone said, okay, that's the exact kind of transaction we're talking about. They tried to get Paul George and Markinon together. I don't think that ever got far. They tried to get Durant. Durant vetoed that. They tried to trade the Wiseman pick and couldn't find, I remember like Bradley Beale was mentioned, Ben Simmons, like, I don't think any of that went anywhere. They tried to get into the Raptors stuff with Siakaman and Obey. They tried to get LeBron. Like, I can't, there's got to be, I don't, I don't remember what other missed opportunities there were, but it's not like they haven't tried and they did end up with Jimmy Butler and it did look like that's exactly the kind of guy they need. I don't know if I'm, if I'm forgetting any other sort of like, well, they should have gone out and gotten that guy. They do have all these, they have three picks to trade now, plus Kaminga. I think they'll try. They'll try on everyone. They'll try on freaking Yanis. You know, they'll try on everyone, but I don't know what they're, what they're going to get. And that's really the problem. In fact, what I would tell you is when you watch the roster, I just don't see the move that they're going to be able to make that is going to take them from wherever they're at right now, even if you and I both agree that better days are probably ahead here at some point in the next couple months, to get them from wherever they're at into that conversation again, with the OKCs and the Denver's, they're going to try like hell, but I, and this goes always back to Kaminga. I think the problem is fans are sitting there saying, get rid of them. They move them for some, for Malik Monk. They don't want to add more salary in another guard and for some pick down the line. I don't know if that one is actually going to come to fruition. And I think the part that has kind of gotten lost in the framework of a conversation is, I think when you miss that big on the number two pick, and it's not pinning it all on Wiseman because he was the player that he was, but when you have that pick and you don't take advantage of it, it just leaves this huge gap that really has never gotten filled. And Kaminga just isn't the player that they hoped he would be. Moody is a solid rotation piece, but he's not going to be a difference maker every single night. You get what you get. And I think you nailed it. When you have an older team, you need somebody to come up behind them and give them help. And that help just has not been there this season and it was a help that they're banking on. So the roster is what it is. They have a lot of solid pieces, but they don't have a lot of game changing guys that are going to be able to take that weight off of Steph every night. Jimmy can still be that guy in flashes. He just can't be that guy consistently the same way. There are a lot of reasons why they've fallen into where they are. I'm just concerned if I'm a Warriors fan that you look ahead and you go, okay, try to make a move in order to give up what it would take to get any one of these pieces that we're talking about. I don't think that whatever that move is is going to be a fix that places them back at the top of the conversation. Yeah. If you had to boil it all down to one moment, it's the wise men pick and we don't need to go back and re-litigate that. All that said, this seems better than its record and I love watching Steph and I love watching these guys rage against the dying of the light and that's what we're going to be in for for the next 50 whatever games is these guys raging against the dying of the light and Nick Friedel is going to be there to cover it all at the athletic. It's great to see you buddy. I think you got your cup shirt on. You know, it's all happening. I miss you. Oh, Rhino. Rhino, man, boy. That's a tough one. It is, but I can't tell you how much I enjoy being with you again, but it's been too long. It makes me feel good to have this conversation again. And for all the Warriors fans, I do think they're going to put some more wins together, but I would close it this way. There was so much hope that when they got Jimmy and they made that move, Zach, it was Jimmy Dreymon Steph. Two more years, two more years in Horford, two more years. I think what we're seeing is this is it this year because I don't know what the hell you go and do next year with Steph going on. I mean, he's going to be 38 in a couple of months and you know, he's going to be 39 next year. Jimmy on the knee, Dreymon in the extra year. This is the last run right now, whatever it is. Next year, you know, what do you do? You run around with Steph and you say, Steph Curry is incredible. We need to all appreciate what we're seeing on an idly basis, but there was supposed to be a two year window with this group. What we're seeing very clearly is this is that last year of that window and it's getting shorter by the day with the inability to find the consistency that they need. Well, that was a depressing way to wrap it up, Nick Friedel, but it is great to see you. I will see you down the line somewhere at an arena around the NBA. It's good to see you, bud. Go, go cubbies. Always, my man. Talk to you. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional, just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title industry company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue. And did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend 200 pounds on your first campaign and get a 200 pound credit for the next one. Go to linkedin.com slash lead to claim your offer terms and conditions apply. The new LinkedIn hiring pro can't undo your last hire, the lone wolf, who you thought was a good collaborator because you didn't have the right candidate insights. But once you hired them, it was all hoarding info, declining meetings and howling at the full moon. But LinkedIn hiring pro can find you a perfect fit by using insights from the LinkedIn network to give you a short list of the best fit candidates. Hire right the first time with LinkedIn hiring pro. Post your first job today and get 100 pounds off at linkedin.com slash AI hire terms and conditions apply. All right, let's bring on a special guest Denver Nuggets forward and now podcaster Cam Johnson. Welcome to the podcast family is big, big career upgrade for you. Thank you, Zach. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Are we calling it the old man in the three, the young man to the three? Is it both? Depending on which type of episode it is, I'm confused by the titles. So when I'm present, it's the old man in the three. The young man in three still will be in operation. Those episodes drop on Thursdays, I believe. And Tommy's just going around kind of more of like a team-based thing where he's getting guys in a group environment. And then when I'm present, it's the old man, the three that are dropping on those Tuesday episodes. But you're younger than Tommy. There's a dissonance here that I can't, I feel like we need to simplify this. I feel like it just needs to be one or the other. But anyway, you just started out, it's going well so far. Listen to the first couple of episodes. You having fun? Yeah, it's cool. You know, I did a lot with the young man in three last year just hopping on in the studio in Brooklyn when I was there. I think you guys might know the backstory of that. JJ had put a golf simulator in there, really nice golf simulator. And it was only five minutes from my apartment. So I would mosey on over there, get on the Sim, and just through the process of being around so much, I ended up hopping just down the hallway into the studio and getting on the pod with Tommy. And we decided to take it a step further. So you had an apartment in Brooklyn, like a normal New Yorker, except I heard you have concluded New York, not for you. I'm not a city person in general. Never have been. I'm from the suburbs of Pittsburgh. But you know, I started to enjoy it as time goes on. Of course, as soon as you start to feel a little bit more comfortable as when you get traded, that's kind of how life goes. It's kind of how the NBA goes. But it won me over a little bit as to how I viewed it when I first got traded there. I lived in New York for 20 years, never lived in Brooklyn. I skipped Brooklyn. I went Manhattan, Queens, very uncommon trajectory. Everyone stops in Brooklyn at some point, but we were a pandemic move out of the city from more space into the suburbs. I miss it every day. It's still my favorite place. Okay. You mentioned the Nets. You have told the story many times about how you found out you were traded from the suns to the Nets, woken up in the middle of night to a flurry of text and all this. But what about this most recent trade? How did you find out you were traded from Brooklyn to Denver? And kind of like one of the sneaky important deals of the off season, who told you what was the first wind you got of it? Those trade rumors had been flying around for 15 months, 14 months by the time I actually got traded. So every time my phone rang and my agents called, there was that little voice in the back of my head that was like, okay, this could be the time. This could be the time for over a year. So fast forward to the summer after the season. Being around the league, you understand how the business works, how movement works. And I feel like the longer you're in those trade talks, it kind of just means the more likely it is to come true sooner than later. So around the draft time, I catch wind that a couple teams are sniffing around. Maybe four teams are sniffing around a little heavier. Nothing went through on draft night, but still at the same time, things were heating up. So my attendees were a little tuned. I got a phone call late June in a morning. I had just finished working out. I was moving on to the next part of my day and my agent called and right off the bat, immediately I could tell with the tone of his voice that this one was pretty serious. And he kind of just blurted out, there's a deal on the table sending you to Denver. It seems pretty real. He gets that out. He's like, okay, that's Sean, Mark's calling me right now. I'm going to take this call. He called me back 30 seconds later. And he's like, all right, it's pretty much a done deal from there. And then Sean called me a couple of minutes later and that was that. Continue on with your day, wait for correspondence from the Denver people and start that transition. So you learned the proper old school way, like you didn't learn on Twitter. You got word from your agent and you got word from the GM trading you before it was public. Yes. And I believe it was intentional on Brooklyn's behalf and it was really appreciated for me. Obviously it was completely opposite the first time. It was Twitter notifications. And I'm not a Twitter guy. So it was my little brother and my dad calling me with Twitter updates and then trying to find out from there. But yeah, this time they told me straight up early and it was 30, 45 minutes before the news came out. Wow. That's like... That's like a week in modern time. Exactly. Exactly. And so then it was like... And it moves fast, right? Because then I'm having conversations with my family. I might have been my mom or my older brother, somebody didn't catch wind of it until maybe an hour or two later or somebody was out and about at the time and they didn't know until they got back to my house. So yeah, it was it was a decent feeling to kind of be early on the news. Who's the first Denver phone call to you? Is it their front office? Is it David Adelman? Who's the first call? Yeah, it was front office, guys. It was Ben, Tenzer, John Wallace, those guys that had taken over in the front office. And then quickly you kind of pivot to training staff, getting in for physicals and that sort of thing. And when they talked about what they saw as the vision, why you, what you would bring to the starting five, which was like the most established starting five, maybe in the entire NBA, what kind of stuff did they talk about? Yeah. And I'm not going to gloss over that because in the whole trade saga, it always felt like that starting five was so established. You know what I mean? So it was like, I never really thought Denver was that true of a possibility just because of exactly what you said. But it's simple. We got guys with a lot of talent across the board, especially in our starting five, and even in our reserve group. So basically for me, just come in, make shots, space the floor, kind of be a secondary creator and then, you know, be all about that team defense kind of mob mentality that we have and that we're growing. The secondary creator thing is the thing everyone immediately zoomed in on as, well, if they, if they see a difference between Michael Porter Jr. who I thought, frankly, and I've said this before on my show, I thought people kind of rushed him out of the, out of Denver and moved on to how excited they were for you. And it's great that they're excited for you, but it almost felt underappreciated how rare he is as a scorer, six, 10 can shoot over anybody, can get rebounds and all that stuff. But, but what you brought was secondary creator attack closeouts, run, pick, and roll occasionally catch coming off pin downs. So they talked to you about that specific stuff, like that's something they could use just another guy to keep the ball moving, keep the blender going. Absolutely. You spot on. Do you feel like that has, has like come to fruition? You've slow start. Obviously there was a lot of like, wait, where's camp Johnson? What's going on? You had a shoulder issue. You're up to 40% on threes all of a sudden, quietly 11 points a game. I think it's been like three, four weeks and you've looked like the player that they envisioned. But do you feel like you're starting to find it kind of fit that role? Yeah, I think there's still just a ton, a ton of space to, to grow in the system. And I'll be honest, the way we play is a lot different than a lot of the situations I've been in before. And the vast majority of that is that there's really nobody like the Joker out there. And so I think what we're seeing is we score the ball really, really well. So those offensive issues that I'm having personally, I like, for me, you cannot let that get in the way of a team whose offense is number one. So for me, it's, it's that continue to build game by game, continue to just feel comfortable in the space while, while the team is still our best offensive self, and then bringing that defense along with it. So I don't think I've shown exactly what I've been brought here to show. And that's completely on me. But that does not mean that the work behind the scenes is not going in every day to get there. Is it, it would be human nature for me, I'm not you. Is it human nature for you to like check Brooklyn box scores and be like, okay, well, Mike, Mike is kind of balling out over there. Or if you just left that left that behind and like you do you in Denver. Well, it's human nature. And the fact that those are also, you know, guys that I spent a lot of time with Mike is not the only guy on that roster. You know, the rest of those guys that that I put in a lot of hours with and the coaching staff. So of course I check in, I check in all on all their games. And when I've seen Mike do, I think a large part of that is the system and the places he's put in and Jordy's emphasis on just hey, let it fly. And Jordy, Jordy's a great coach in that regard. And you're starting to see growth from the team perspective from there over there in Brooklyn now in terms of being able to spin it and get some wins. But man, we all know Mike's shooting ability and how he's kind of just able to shoot out of anywhere, any contest, any spot on the floor. And that's exactly what he's showing over there. Okay, jokers in Serbia, when you get traded to Denver, with his horses, with this family, what is the first not text, not whatever, like actual voice to voice conversation as a Denver nugget that you have with Nicola Jokic? Right there, right there, right before media day, baby. That's it. Wow. That's it. In Denver. So like when he comes back to the states, what's the conversation like, hey, I'm Nicola, welcome to the team. Don't fuck it up. I wouldn't say that last part's in there, but it's definitely like, hey, like, you know, welcome to the team. But, you know, at this point in the preseason, where, you know, everybody got a lot going on. So it's not even that much of a introductory kind of kind of conversation, just like, hey, what's your next media stop? You know, you're good. Good morning. We'll see you over at practice later on. That's it. Welcome to the Nuggets. And has it been, obviously you watch basketball, we all watch basketball. This is a three-time MVP, one of like the all-time unicorn players. Has it been what you expected playing with him and his passing? Has it been different in some way that you didn't expect? What's the early experience like? Oh man. It's kind of been what I expected, maybe even a little crazier. We all know he can pass the ball. But he's just what I've seen from being his teammate now. You know, when you play against some, your team game plans for him, you feel like, all right, we're going to do this because this is our best chance of slowing him down. We're going to do that. We're going to do this. But now when you're on his team and you're his teammate, you'll see, you know, we played probably somewhere in the high teams worth of teams. And what you see is everybody does something a little different. And, you know, everybody or some teams do minimal and kind of play them more straight up. But the bottom line is, it's really hard to slow him down. Like, you know, all these adjustments that teams go to, and a lot of the times it's just, you know, they're handicapped on exactly how they can game plan. And what it leads to is what you see when he has kind of like scoring explosions, like he had in Atlanta down the stretch. And, you know, he's had a handful of times this year against LA and LA is just they don't have the answer. And that's kind of what you, I've come to see that maybe I wasn't expecting quite as much, but it's, it's a lot of times like teams do not have a good answer to slow him down period. You guys are, I think 17 and six, something like six. The West is just full of juggernaut teams. You've got Houston twice coming up in the next 10 days. You don't play Oklahoma City until March. And then you play them four times from March till the end of the season. Are you already in a place where like those games are circled on the schedules? Like, all right, I mean, the first Houston game was, was a, like a playoff level sort of strategic back and forth physical. Are those games that you're already kind of looking forward to and thinking about? And are you like, to what degree are you watching Oklahoma City and what they are doing in your conference? I try to check in on all these teams kind of periodically. Okay. See, obviously he's playing at a high level and it's predictable. You know, they have their guys, they have their system. Any fall off would kind of be self-induced from that level. But I think what's made them so successful over the past couple of years in terms of being able to build so consistently is they seem on the outside looking in to have like an unselfish approach to winning. And that's the bottom line. That's what they care about. Obviously, we know Houston has a ton of talent, but, but for us, we want to win every game. We want to win every game. But our goals are in the end more important than, bigger than how our team is playing at this very, very moment. And so right now we have a couple guys out. We're working on our flow. We're working on our defense, our intensity and, and those things that will help us win games, closing games in the fourth quarter. And I think the better we get that, the more prepared we'll be down the stretch. And so I think the goal of our season is to just hone in on these things, kind of control, we can control. Because I think what we've shown now is, is we can beat teams and we can beat them by scoring. We can beat them by scoring. We can beat them through pace. There's, there's a lot of different ways. But the more ways that we can uncover, maybe, you know, figuring out those games where the offense is a little tougher and we're winning games with stops down the stretch, maybe having different guys step up and, and, and close games, the more we can kind of uncover, dig up, you know, accumulate those things, the better off we'll be as the season starts to get tighter and tighter and tighter, which we all know it will. We all know how, how, how tight the West will become April. And so also to that point, all these games really do matter. And, and we've seen that in previous years, especially last year as a great example of how one game at the end of the season moves the playoff standings all over the place. So, you know, I think our future is really bright, but we're not a finished product yet. Have you caught a Yolketsch touchdown pass yet? And I'll let pass like a 90 footer, 85 footer, or if he dropped one, if you finished one? I've probably dropped a few, but I've definitely, I've definitely finished a few. And it's like, you know, you just know that, that, that he's going to throw it. And have you had the experience of a pass whizzing towards your head when you didn't necessarily think a pass even existed, but he did? The best example that was preseason game two, he threw a crazy baseline pass without looking like a wrap around baseline pass against the help. And so far, none have topped that one, but you always got to be ready for his passes. All right, let's do some Cam Johnson greatest hits. Rookie or bubble? How'd you stay sane in the bubble? Well, I was young, man. I was, you know, fresh out of college. COVID quarantine kind of time was crazy for everybody. And so for us, the young guys on our team, it was me, Ty Jerome, Mikhail Bridges, Javon Carter. We had a lot to prove in the league still, and it's my rookie year. Like I don't want it to be over. You know, I still, there's still so much for me to learn. That's when you have that real pure genuine excitement to get back to playing. So when we were let in the bubble, we were 26 and 39, we're the last team let in our Phoenix team. We were just excited that like, we'll be able to be around our guys again, you know, we'll be able to hang out with our people and who, you know, it was really hard to do those things before. So when we get to the bubble, it's kind of like you do your best to treat it as like like a college trip almost. We're in, there's like arcade rooms in the hotel that we would go and we'd play NBA Jam. We'd play ping pong. I played probably hundreds of games of ping pong versus coaches. Okay, who's your team in NBA Jam? Oh, who was I playing with? I think it was me and Ty Jerome on the same team maybe. And we were playing with what team would you use? Who would you use? I'm telling you, I'm telling you the pistons, the pistons, Isaiah Thomas and Lambeer, I think was a combo that we ended up going with. And sometimes the Hornets. LJ, that's LJ Kendall Gill. I think that's a good one. I was a long time ago. This is, you know, this is my, this is my era. I went, I always went to Tim Hardaway, Chris Mullin, Warriors, just bombing, bombing threes. See, that's a great strategy. We needed some interior presence. So Lambeer is kind of holding it down for us. I think that was our winning combo. How's your ping pong game and who's the king of the 2020 Sun's ping pong? I think I came away with the most wins. All right. Elia Kobo, who's on the team at that time was a great competitor. One of our coaches, Ricardo Fois, who's now with the Knicks, was a, we probably played 50, 50, 60 games just between the two of us. I love ping pong and I love some good competitions. I'll play, I'll play for hours. What did the, the bubble was like this galvanizing thing for you guys that like obviously carried into the next season when you get Chris Paul and you go to the NBA, you go to the finals. But like, did you, did you feel like you go eight no by the fourth game or third game or fifth game? Do you actually start to feel and talk with your teammates? Like this is, something is actually happening here. This isn't just a fluke. Yeah. So I think we had a great approach as a team. It was tough. You know, you, there's a lot of ways you could have looked at the bubble and some teams definitely took it harder than others. And the teams that stood to be there for a long time, probably mentally, from the jump had it worse. Just, you know, you're going to be isolated from your family or, you know, in the specific environment for multiple months. For us, the way Coach Monti approached it was like, this is an invaluable opportunity to grow a program period. We're not going to worry about the, the playoffs aren't going to wear out the results. We just take care of what we need to take care of on a daily basis and go out and win games. So we, we beat a, a, a fully healthy Dallas team, pretty much fully healthy. We beat a fully healthy Clippers team. And then we got some teams as they were resting guys, sitting guys, you know what I mean? And so as that momentum grew and we were able to stack those wins, it was an energy that we played with that folk contagious and that just felt like it built upon itself. I also think maybe there was a benefit to us playing those eight games, going eight in the, handling everything that we could possibly handle on our end and then getting out, you know, it ended on a, on a sweet note. And only a handful of teams left the bubble with the win. And we were one of them, Lakers one of them, and maybe another team or two that won their last one, but we were the only team that didn't lose there. And it felt like it gave us a lot of momentum going into the next season. Next season, some more greatest hits. I rewatched a couple of like landmark Phoenix 2021 moments. Jay Crowder salsa dancing in LeBron's face and getting ejected from the game. You are next to him and are holding him back as the salsa dance is concluding and he's getting ejected. What do you remember of this landmark 2021 NBA moment? So that first round of the playoffs was crazy. The Lakers wanted us in the first round. We were two, they were seven. They were like, we're going to get the seven. We're going to, we're going to find you guys and we're going to beat you guys. I think we started off down to one, 80 goes down. But I think CP got hurt early in that, in that series too. But it was just a gritty effort on us and a highly emotional series where, where tempers were kind of flaring. And that's also dancing moment. Like I was trying to, you know, I'm one more so to probably say, you know, maintain our composure, be the bigger person. We win with grace, we lose with grace, we move on, get ready for the next series. But some of my teammates had some other ideas and they wanted to savor the moment. So as I'm trying to pull Jay away, they're like, I had guys get mad at me like, nah, nah, nah, let him go. Like, who are you with? I'm like, who do you think I'm with? You know, so it was a funny moment there. But I was like, I'm just as much down for this as you guys are. So at that point, I'm like, you know, Jay, you know, salsa dancing all the way back to Phoenix. It was a great series for us. And, and a tough one too. Yeah, it's, I can tell you're laughing as you are trying to de-escalate the situation at the same time. Exactly. The value in the conference finals, game two, it's the famous inbounds play that Aitin Dunks, it beats, went to beat the Clippers. And you are like curling around on the perimeter almost as, I don't want to say decoy, but obviously you're trying to draw some attention. That was, that was the plan. And had you run, I mean, I know that's a Jay Triano play, but had you actually run that play before and you've been in that play, do you feel like you're executed your role correctly? Did you know it was going to work? This, all the credit on this one goes to Coach Montt. Because as soon as that time out was called, he grabbed the clipboard and got to explaining the entire play, no stutter, no hesitation. And then went to each individual of the five guys and told them exactly what to do and exactly what to look for on the play. And then he ended with, there is no goal tending on an inbounce pass, try to almost make a shot Jay. DA just put a hand on it, send it in a basket, win the game, we'll go home. So my specific job was come off that screen, like you said, as a decoy. And Montt's like, just do whatever you can to make it look like you're in the play. If you can get your defender, which was Paul George, I think it was Paul George, to follow you out of the play. Perfect, you did your job. So when I start making my run, I felt like, okay, if I just run with intent, like the play is going to come back to me or something, I'll get him out of play. I'm sure enough, he followed me all the way to the freaking sideline. He tracked you. He tracked me. And to see that play kind of unfold in real time and the confidence that was in each player to execute, it was pretty cool. And the result was even cooler. Okay. Now a negative memory from the 2021 finals. The Drew Holiday Steel from Booker and Aliyub Tiyanis to basically clinch up the NBA championship is one of the all time like, no, it was clinching game five. It wasn't the NBA championship. It wasn't the last game. Yeah, but a home game to go up three two. Yeah. That's what it was. It was in Phoenix. Now I rewatched it. You're on the bench. But I remember I was not at that game, but I remember watching that and the steel is incredible. And they could have basically just played a conservative and you would have had to foul them and go to the line. And instead they go the entire other way and try this Aliyub Tiyanis who's not a good free throw shooter. So you better convert it. You're on the bench watching. Are you just like, what, what in the world is happening? Like, what's your vantage point on that play? That's an all time crazy NBA play. Yeah, man. I hate that play. I think we're up one. Is that correct? I'd have to go back and look. I don't remember. I think we're up one. So if we if we foul them and they make two free throws, you know, we still are three point away from tying. So the real what really felt like it hurt was Chris fouling and Giannis making their there up one there up one twenty one. If I said where I meant there up one. So the what really hurt was was fouling and Giannis making the dunk and potentially going down four in the games out of reach. And did Giannis miss the free throw and they got the offensive rebound? You're you're doing more of a deep dive than I did for this. I like blacked out when the lot of got thrown. I couldn't believe it. It was gut wrenching, man, just because, you know, and we had been closing games so well all year and you get down to that moment. You have the ball in Chris's hands. You have the ball in book's hands. We're at home where we've been winning so much in the playoffs. We felt comfortable on the sideline. I felt comfortable over there. And so like just and a lot of credit that goes to Milwaukee and how they were playing the gaps in the finals. If you really watch how they played the gaps in games three, four and five versus how they played it in games one and two, it just led to a lot more moments of hesitancy. And one of those moments was was where Drew was kind of able to sneak back into play, get that steel and create that fast break. And so that was just a gut wrenching play, man. I mean, you talk about being up two, oh, that game two, two after game four, when we were up nine in the fourth quarter of game four. And then to go up 25 early in game five and drew holiday go crazy and bring them back and the game is tied all the way to the end, like gut wrenching moments, man. And obviously ones that I wish I could have back because you just get so close. And then you realize how hard it is to get back year after year after year. I promise I'll end with a couple of fun questions, but it's been three years now. It's been three years. Can we hear the real story of what happened in game seven, 2022 against Dallas when I blinked and the score was like 50 to 20 and Aityn was benched and everything was going completely haywire. Like what actually happened? Did you feel going into the game like something bad is going to happen tonight? No, I didn't feel like something bad was going to happen, but I did not. It's not like I felt the opposite. It's not like I felt like we're going to come in here and win handily. The one thing that was on our side for sure was the fact that we had dominated home court and whoever was home won the first six games and won handily. Our margin of victory is probably 15 plus at home and theirs was probably 10, 15 plus at home. So you go back home, you figure, we're back home. This is where we've been comfortable. We've been winning games here, but from the tip, something was a little off and they took advantage of it. We missed shots, they made shots. We played sloppy. They played clean. I remember at the end of the first quarter, it just felt like such a desperate feeling. Then the message at halftime was basically just like, hey man, whatever the result of this is, go out with your heads held high, compete for the next 24 minutes and let the result be the result and we'll continue to move on and build from that point and attack it again next season. It was such a disappointing way to end such a great season across the board for our team. One of the most heartbreaking moments of it all was that was my last playoff game as a son. In that moment, it's my third year. We have a relatively young group outside of Chris. You're not thinking that the end is near. You're not thinking that you're not going to play another game, playoff game with this group. You're not thinking that 40 games later you'll be traded and all those things. All your thinking is like, man, we got to go through pre-season, training camp, 82 games and a series just to get back to have an opportunity to win a round two, just to get back to two years ago to win a finals. Up until that point, I like to say this one, up until a point, our progression had been very linear. The bubble team was better than the prior team. The team that made the finals was two seed, 51 to 21, whatever it was, made the finals but lost. We come back the next year, we up it, whatever it was, 66. 66 something wins. Yeah, 60. We almost felt like we could maybe chase 70, but we started to try to gear up for the playoffs, that sort of thing. We're a one seed and we win our first round. Up until that point, we're, oh, every step we're better, every step we're better, every step we're better. That was the first time we really got punched in the face and didn't make it to kind of a better mark, which is going to happen. But like I said, man, you come back and things change and the league moves fast and you just got to move with it. You are famously an astronomy nerd. I read something where you had a telescope that was in your apartment in New York and had been in your apartment or your house in whatever in Phoenix, but all the light in New York from the buildings, from the lights and stuff, it disrupted your telescopic view of the universe. Is it with you in Denver and is the view better in Denver? I'm downtown in Denver, so it's not that much better. I know and that's frustrating in and of itself, but when I'm back home and I still live in Arizona in the off seasons. So when I'm back home, I have my telescope back there and sometimes you don't even need the telescope, just looking around and kind of just admiring. Admiring the beauty of creation is sometimes enough. Cam Johnson's best outer space movie is what? Interstellar. Easy. Wow, easy. I got to rewatch Interstellar. I watched it on a plane, which is not the way you want to watch that movie. And I was like, at some point, I just was like, I don't know what's happening anymore. Yeah, that's fair. No, it's an amazing movie. It's definitely the best movie along that line. All right. I go aliens. Alien or aliens. I almost view them as one movie. Have you seen those movies though? Because you're much younger than me. Have you seen like the original? Like the original Alien movies? Of course. Of course. And they're freaky. Scared the crap out of me as a kid, which is I like being scared. I like being scared in movies. You are from the suburbs of Pittsburgh, Moontownship. Moontownship, that's it. But you are a Bengals fan. How did this happen? All right. So my dad's from South Carolina, Myrtle Beach area, Conway. He grew up a Cowboys fan, I guess just because they were on TV. Although he didn't like the Cowboys at the time when I was a child, he still didn't like the Steelers because of that, you know, longstanding rivalry stuff. He went to play basketball, stayed in Pittsburgh, but was never a Steelers fan. He liked Cordell Stewart, who was a quarterback around 2000, 2001. Cordell got traded, let go, whatever. They started Tommy Maddox afterwards. He didn't like Tommy Maddox at all. So he talked real bad about him. Up until that point, I was probably five years old. I was obviously a Steelers fan. I'm from Pittsburgh. My mom's from Pittsburgh. My whole side of the family's from Pittsburgh. And if you're in Pittsburgh, man, you're a Steelers fan, period. So I went rogue. And all my siblings did too. I have three brothers. Nobody's a Steelers fan. My dad just talked bad about him. And you know, you're impressionable. He had influence over our train of thought. And I became a fan free agent and I started watching around. Obviously, I'm six, seven. I don't really know what's going on. But then something catches my eye as a team of black and orange jerseys. I'm like, oh, that's cool. They got tiger stripes on the sleeve. Seven year olds love that. And then they have one guy who's very outgoing and funny and a great player in the back of his jersey says C. Johnson. I'm like, oh, that's me. If I ever get to a professional league or play in the NFL or play in the NBA, my jersey will say C. Johnson. So I was like, I asked my parents for that jersey for maybe a year or two. And I finally got one. And from that, I had the black one. Then I got an orange one. Nice. And from that point on, I was a diehard Bangles fan for better and for worse. I missed two Super Bowls for the Steelers, spurred fights and drama that I probably didn't need. And maybe my football fandom would have been a little bit cozier of experience had I stayed a Steelers fan. But once you're a fan of somebody, once you're a fan of a team, it don't go away. Well, as someone trying to brainwash my 10 year old daughter into being a Mets fan, like I am and was for most of my life. I'm glad to hear that parental authority in sway really works. My mom, by the way, grew up in a little town called Bridgeville, Pennsylvania, which is about 20 miles south of, yeah, it's about 20 miles south of you. So I, we would go there two, three times a year. I hit the Bridgeville Chuck E. Cheese hard in the late eighties. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's a classic. See that's the, that's the Chuck E. Cheese we went to as kids too. Same one. There's 79. No, it's not, I wouldn't even say it's 20 miles from where I am. It's probably more like 10 and it's all highway 79. Yeah. My parents hated that Chuck E. Cheese. It, to a parent, it was just a hell of noise at robots and bad pizza. I think it's shut down now. I think it's shut. It can't, it can't exist. But no, I love Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is one of my all time favorite cities, one of the most underrated cities in America. I wish there was an NBA team there. All right, Cam Johnson, any parting thoughts on the nuggets? We didn't talk too much nuggets because it's early. It's early, but any parting thoughts on nuggets on the podcast that everyone knows the podcast. JJ built it up with Tommy and now you're taking the baton. I just, I think there's a lot of potential. I think if I just look at myself and what I bring to the table, it hasn't been anywhere near my personal expectations, which happens in life sometimes, you know, but, you know, looking forward to, to getting myself back to the type of, just the type of play that I didn't want to be at. And, you know, I think our team potential is just really high. And you got a guy like the Joker, the way Jemal's been playing this year has been nuts. You said it already. You got to be on the All-Star team this year. This has got to be the one. And it's only 20-some games in, but, but what he's put together is definitely, if there is an All-Star selection now, he definitely be on. But you can't ignore the way he's been playing either. He's been playing lights out until that hamstring injury. So when he gets back, which, you know, he'll come back soon enough. Just, I think we just have so many weapons across the board, starters and bench. And as we continue to clean things up and get better and better, I think our potential is high. I love it. Cam Johnson, old man in the three, is you, young man in the three, is Tommy. It's all the same pod feed. It's always a great listen. And Tommy's bouncing around to different teams. You're going to tackle a lot of different topics. Congrats on the gig. Congrats on winding up at the Nuggets. Have fun. I will see you. You know what, I'll see you. I will see you in Toronto. I'm there over the holidays. You guys are in Toronto. I'll say hello there. Thank you so much, man. All right, that's it for today's Zach Lo Show. We will be back later this week with another episode. As always, thank you to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thank you to Cam Johnson. Thank you to Michael Pina. Thank you to Nick Friedel. 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