How I built a 1M+ subscriber newsletter and top 10 tech podcast | Lenny Rachitsky

I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. This was as I was starting the newsletter, and this phrase of I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over. And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing. And that was for three hours. It gave me the confidence that, like, okay, maybe I do have things to share.

0:00

What do you want to say to our mothers right now?

0:18

Do you want to take this back? My mom?

0:20

Do you want to take that back? You started your newsletter 2019 and it now has over a million subscribers.

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1.2 million.

0:30

1.2.

0:30

Something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from actual experience.

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People always say, if you want to write, read.

0:35

The source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real. At this point, most of my posts are guest posts where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career.

0:37

What do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that

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newsletter on the struggle bus of startup life? Probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined some company as a pm.

0:48

Do you still like it?

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I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting, but the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones boulder chasing me constantly. It's like this treadmill that you're on.

0:55

Tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business.

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Here's something I've never shared.

1:07

Today, my guest is my brilliant, incredible wife, Michelle Real, who turns the table and interviews me. I've had so many people over the years want me to be interviewed on this podcast, and what could be more fun than doing this with my wife? I share things during this conversation that I've never shared anywhere else, including some of the hardest moments from this journey. I get a lot more personal than I've ever been on this podcast. Also, the day this podcast comes out just happens to be my wife's birthday. And she is also about to publish her third book, a children's book called Charts for Babies, which we chat briefly about. Definitely pre order it. This was so fun and so special.

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I hope you love it. Let's get into it. Here's a puzzle for you.

1:53

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3:35

Michelle Real, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

4:11

Thanks for having me.

4:14

So what are we doing here? People constantly ask me to get interviewed myself. People are like why don't you sit on the other side of the microphone and get interviewed? And I'm just like, nah, I like interviewing. But you have a book coming out and we thought this would be a fun opportunity to have you interview me. And so this is going to be your show. I'm just going to be here asking you whatever you want. I have no idea what you're going to ask me and we'll see where it goes. And I'm going to ask you some questions about your book too. So I'll turn that over to you. Michelle what do you got? What do you got for me?

4:16

Oh Lenny aka Babe yeah, yeah. So you started your newsletter 2019, and it now has over a million subscribers.

4:48

1.2 million.

5:05

1.2. And your podcast is very frequently one of the top 10. Is that right?

5:05

Yep. It's like, right around. Yeah, yeah. Top 10 tech podcast. Yeah.

5:14

Yes.

5:18

Hell, yeah.

5:18

I love it. When I met you, I think you were something called a product engineer.

5:20

I was a software engineer. Let's see when he met me. No, I think it was a. I think it was still a software engineer. Yeah.

5:24

I think you went from software engineer to product engineer to product manager.

5:30

Yeah, yeah.

5:35

And I think that's right. And I'm wondering, what do you. What do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter?

5:36

If I, like, stayed in my job.

5:41

Yeah, if you hadn't. And then that. I mean, I'll get to another question about what do you think is the one moment that led you to your newsletter? But you can answer either one.

5:43

So is the question, after I left Airbnb, what would I be doing? Or is it like, if I didn't just.

5:53

If you. If you hadn't, or if you had gotten a different job, do you think you would have gone a different job, stayed there.

5:57

So when I left my job, I was at Airbnb for seven years. I was. I had like, plan A, start a company again. Plan B, join a startup as, like, their first pm. Plan C, join a big company as a pm. Plan D, advise companies, become a consultant kind of person. Nowhere in that plan was like, do this crazy thing that I do now. I had a lot of startup ideas. As I was exploring the startup ideas, as you remember, I was just, like, tinkering and prototyping and building stuff. And then on the side, I was writing things that I learned and things I wanted to share. And you were just like, why are you writing? Why do you. There's. You can't make money on the Internet writing. You should be doing this thing that you're good at, startups and building and tech and stuff like that. And I'm just like, I don't know. It seems like there's a pull here. So I'm just going to keep doing this.

6:03

I don't know if I said things that you're good at. I just said. I just said, like, as a person,

6:50

there's no money in this putting writing on the Internet.

6:54

I don't make any money unless people buy my book.

6:56

Yeah.

6:59

Plug.

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Yeah. So I guess to answer your question, I'd probably find another company to start and I probably would have failed, considering most startups fail. So I'd probably be in this, like, oh, that was this thing, a thing I should be doing. I'd be on the struggle bus of startup life, probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined some company, I guess as a pm.

7:02

So then I guess going back to that question of what do you think? Do you think there's a moment or a collection of moments that led you to go full in on the newsletter or even start the newsletter? Start the Medium post that led to the newsletter.

7:21

Yeah, it was definitely a collection of moments. It's kind of this little journey that I just followed. Pull. That was starting to work and I'm just like, huh, maybe there's something here. So a few moments along that journey. One was the first thing I wrote on the. This is like the first thing I wrote on the Internet. Did very well. It was this post on what I learned at Airbnb. Like Medium featured it. It went all over the place. Brian Chesky shared it with the whole company. So proud of what I shared. So that was a nice moment of like, maybe I have something to share. And then I wrote a few more things on Medium at this point and there was more of just like, this is working, people seem to like it. Then I had a conversation with a friend, Lee Jacobs, who's a VC now, because I was telling him, I don't know what I'm. I don't know why I'm doing this, why am I writing? This is like not a future. I should be focusing on the startup. And he's just like, you seem to be enjoying it, people seem to be liking it. Which is very rare. That Venn diagram of things. Just like, how often do you enjoy something and people value it and maybe there's a way to make money in the future. So his advice is just maybe pursue that and double down on that and maybe it'll go somewhere. So that was a moment. Another maybe big moment was nine months of doing the newsletter. So I decided I'm going to move to substack. I'm going to write every week. I tweeted, I'm going to experiment with the newsletter, weekly newsletter, see how it goes. And so I did that every week for nine months. And I just remember this moment nine months in where I was like, huh, I've been doing this every week for nine months. Which means I could probably do this for nine more months. There's this Lindy effect. I don't know if you know this, but there's this concept of something being Lindy, which is as long as it's been going for, it, will most likely last at least that long in the future. So I thought that, okay, I could do this for at least probably another year. I have all these ideas and things I want to write about, so let me just keep doing this. So that's when I decided to add the paywall and start charging and to see if I could make money doing this thing. Also in parallel, as you know, I was doing this based on the assumption that my Airbnb stock was going to be worth something, and I could take this time to explore. And then Covid hit, and Airbnb might have is like, over RIP Airbnb all over Twitter. And I was like, huh, Maybe I need to get a job for real. And so I'm like, I got to make money on this thing. Let me try. So that's when I started the paywall, and it worked. That's like, the other moment, I think I launched the paywall and it worked. You know, I made meaningful dollars like a month in.

7:32

So speaking of Venn diagram, you said, I'm good at it, and I. And I.

9:58

People like it and people like it.

10:02

Oh, and I like doing it. You like doing it.

10:04

That's a really good. Cause I didn't mention that. Okay, that's so true that it's that ikigai, right?

10:06

Yeah.

10:11

Yeah. I think Ikigai is, like, five things, Right? It's like a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah, but that's like a trigger point, because it was just like, people like it and I'm good at it, but without the. I actually enjoy it.

10:12

I think you said I. And I liked it.

10:21

I liked it. Okay, cool.

10:23

Do you still like it?

10:25

I do in almost every way. Like, I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting. Just basically my job is to write about things that are interesting and share people's interesting insights and experiences and interview people and extract wisdom. It's just, like, so interesting. It's my own thing, which makes it extra interesting. But I think a lot about this artist. Finch wrote this blog post, how to Become an Artist. And at the top of his post, he's just like, you pro. You should not become a professional artist. Most likely, because. Yeah, because once it's a thing you have to do, it changes it. You have. You know, you have to do it. So now I'm on this. Like, this is the downside. But I just want to preface with saying, this is incredible. And I can't imagine Doing anything else that I enjoy more, but having to write a post or put out a post every single week and a podcast episode every week. You know, it's like this treadmill that you're on. So you have to kind of get used to that. That part is no fun. But again, I can't think of anything better that I could be doing. And it kind of goes up and down sometimes. Like, I love it. I'm so happy I get to write a thing every single week. And then some weeks I'm like, it'd be cool not to do it this week, but that's part of this life, you know, because otherwise you can't do this. You can't survive in this way if you're not doing something consistently and making it awesome every week. So it's a part of it. So the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones boulder is chasing me constantly because you put out something. Like, I have a post come out. What's today? We're recording on Wednesday. I had a post come out yesterday. And then it's like, what's next week? All right, that's done all that work you put into over what's coming out next week, and it's like every week. So the big question I don't have an answer to is where this all goes long term. Because someday, whether it's 70 years old or 100 years old or 60 years old, I don't know, maybe I won't be able to do this every single week. So I think about, where does this all go? I don't think there's a answer to substack writer podcast life long term. What do you do?

10:26

According to the Lindy. Right.

12:30

There you go.

12:31

So 20, 19 years since the newsletter.

12:32

Seven years. So I think, yeah, good luck. Seven more years.

12:35

You don't run out of ideas.

12:38

Okay, so we got seven years. I can do that.

12:39

Yeah. Okay. So speaking of the boulder, you don't seem like a stressed out person, and I don't see you as a stressed out person. Only like, potty training, sleep, toddler, or baby sleep stuff. I don't see you as a stressed out person. Do you think there's anything behind that? Do you think that's just you, or are you just stressed and you don't show it?

12:42

I think there is an element of I am more stressed than I come across as and even recognize with myself. Like, I get these headaches sometimes. I'm like, what is going on there? Is that stress or is that something else? So I think there's a bit of I'm probably more stressed than it looks like and that I even feel, but I think I'm probably less stressed than the average person. I think part of it is genetics, and then part of it is I work on it. Like, I just. I've learned to adjust the way I think to reduce stress and to not take things seriously. But I think. I think honestly, it's probably like 70% genetics. I'm just like, nah, it'll be all right. It'll be all right. As you know, something we argue about. Nah, it'll be all right. That's some, like, raw chicken. I'll be fine. It's fine.

13:07

So, okay. Do you have any tools or any kind of. Like, I know you've done different types of meditation. We've done breathing courses together. What do you have a favorite? Do you.

13:51

Oh, to like, calm down and de stress.

14:01

And you did. You did a ten day silent meditation right before you ended up writing the post. The post.

14:03

That's true. That was a big wisdom. Oh, here's something I've never shared. Okay. You asked about going back to the moments that led me to this life. So I went on a bachelor party trip with some friends. This isn't where you think it's going.

14:11

I hope not.

14:24

So it was a trip to Joshua Tree with a friend. And there was psychedelics involved on this trip. And I just remember. So we went to Joshua Tree. I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. And this was as I was starting the newsletter. And I just remember sitting there for probably three hours in this one spot. And I was just having this deep breathing happening. And this like, phrase of I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over. And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing. And it's just like, I have wisdom to share. And that was for three hours.

14:27

That made you write the post.

15:12

That made me feel like I can do this. Like, it gave me the confidence that, like, okay, maybe I do have things to share. Yeah. That was a really powerful moment just to give me confidence that there's something inside me that's like, oh, yeah, maybe I could do this thing. So that was a big moment.

15:14

What do you want to say? What do you want to say to our mothers right now?

15:28

My mom.

15:33

Do you want to take that back?

15:33

No, no.

15:34

Do you want to crop it out?

15:35

This is. Okay, Mom. I did anyway. I did some stuff. It's okay. We.

15:36

Okay.

15:43

So it's time to. Time to share.

15:43

And then, yeah, you've done meditation. You did 10 day meditation. You did a specific type of meditation that seemed to me to affect you in physical ways. And then you told me once about a happiness course you took.

15:45

Yeah, that was actually pretty transformative. I took this online course at University of Pennsylvania about the psychology of happiness. And it was basically all the science of what makes you happier and how to be happier. And that really had a big impact on me because it's showed you you can increase your baseline level of happiness by doing a few things. And one of the things is just thinking more positively, thinking more optimistically. There's also gratitude stuff that I didn't find as useful. But there's just something about everyone's got this baseline that was actually a big learning from that course, is everyone's just kind of this baseline level of happiness and you could be at 100, you could be at 0. Probably most people are in between somewhere and something amazing happens. You go way up in happiness and then you come back to that baseline. Something terrible happens, you go back to that baseline. And the main thing you can do is work on improving that baseline so that you come back to a higher place. So that's what a lot of the work is and what you learn in that class. And one of the things is just be optimistic. Just kind of have a positive outlook and don't let your mind kind of spiral into these. Like, it's going to be terrible. So it was a lot of just like think more positively. And I feel like my baseline of level of happiness has gone up. I think that.

15:58

Yeah, I think you told me exercise too. Like, used to run.

17:10

Yes, that was a really good insight. So exercise the science. This was like, I don't know, 15 years ago. I'm guessing there's new research. But the interesting thing there is exercise doesn't make you happier, but it brings you out of the negative. So you're negative one without exercise and exercise brings you to zero so that you're not depressed, basically.

17:14

Speaking of stress.

17:31

Okay, then I have a question for you.

17:32

Oh, okay, let's do this. Let's do this. Because I know on your podcast you have a lightning round. Okay, we're going to do a thunder round.

17:33

Is that extra fast or what does that mean?

17:44

No, it's sound. Your one thing that I think stresses you out the most at times is your misophonia, which is. You want to explain what it is?

17:46

Yeah, it's like, it's funny to talk about it, but it's this. It's like this disorder. It's like a real thing in the brain where I get bothered by certain sounds. And so I get very bothered by people eating with.

17:56

Okay, thunder round is gonna be top five worst sounds. Or you can rank these sounds.

18:11

Okay. Okay, you're gonna give me the five,

18:17

like, best sound to worst sound. Right? So, like, ten is worst.

18:19

Oh, okay, ten is best. I don't know. What are the best sounds?

18:24

Okay. What's. Okay. Okay, let's say chewing. Chewing 1 to 10.

18:27

Chewing, like, with the mouth open.

18:30

Just chewing with the worst.

18:32

Yeah, I hate it. 10 is the worst.

18:33

10 is the worst.

18:35

It's, you know, it's probably. It's in. Yeah, it's 10, nine or 10.

18:36

Or, like, like nails on a chalkboard. What's that?

18:40

That's, like, less bad for me.

18:42

Right. What's the number?

18:43

Like, if it's someone sitting right next to me just, like, chomping away.

18:44

Yeah.

18:47

And it's so awkward to ask anyone to stop. I hate doing that. It's, like, so sweet. You're sweet, but it's just like, what? Yeah, I'm just sitting here eating. Leave me alone.

18:47

Yeah, that's how I feel whenever I do. By accident near you.

18:56

Yeah.

19:00

Okay, so nails on a chalkboard.

19:01

What's.

19:02

It's like six. I don't know, five.

19:03

What about.

19:05

I don't mind this.

19:05

What about, like, a baby crying? Or your. What's a baby crying versus your baby crying?

19:06

Baby crying, like, so 10 is the worst.

19:10

Yeah.

19:13

So like, how loud? Like, very loud.

19:13

Baby crying, like, in newborn phase. Like. Like, didn't know what to do. Like.

19:15

Oh, yeah, that was really, like, when. When Jude was born.

19:19

Yeah.

19:22

Oh, yeah, that's pretty hard. Thunder around. Okay. Like eight.

19:22

Okay. Okay. What about, like, when dude says ba.

19:28

Ba. Yeah, one is the best. Yeah.

19:32

And is there any other sound you.

19:36

Jude laughing?

19:38

Okay.

19:39

Okay.

19:40

What about, like, another bad sound?

19:41

I don't know.

19:43

Okay, you can. You can ask me now if you want.

19:45

Okay.

19:47

If you're getting.

19:48

No, no, no. Like, there's not that many bad sounds. It's just, like, very specific bad sounds that I'm just like basketball, you know, if there's just, like. If I'm trying to calm, like, be calm, and there's like a bunch of commotion. Like. Okay. Like a gas, you know, blower.

19:51

Oh, yeah.

20:05

When I'm trying to work.

20:06

That's, I think, a notorious one for people. What is that, a 10?

20:07

It's like, if it's super loud and right in my face, I Would say, let's say a seven. Okay, not so bad.

20:10

You can ask your question now if you want. Or I have more for you.

20:15

I'm going to ask you a question. So. So you make these incredible genius, funny charts. There's one example on this book. So you have this first book here called Am I Overthinking this? Which a lot of people identify with, has sold many copies. So you're. You create all these charts that try to synthesize things in life, things people experience, things people feel. A lot of these charts get shared on socials by people that steal your charts and just pretend like they made this or just found it and they cut out your attribution. They make pillows and mugs and there's all these websites that sell all these charts you've made just like on swag that you get no credit for. I know it's bothered you a lot over the years. What makes your charts so shareable so widely? Why do they go so viral so often?

20:17

By the way? I stopped looking at that because it doesn't help me.

21:06

Anyway, I think that's for the best. Well, I think that's the good.

21:10

I think as. As your thing has gotten more successful, it's like not as important to me. I do think it's interesting that they are often detached from me, which is. I don't know why.

21:14

But yeah, people want to get credit

21:24

when they do, and I think I can figure out some of them. It's clear when I make it, whether it's like I make it and then I let it sit and then some other. Some moment happens or I'm like, oh, no, this is what it needs. And then I'm like, now I can feel that's really good. And usually it's like it's something that makes me laugh or cackle even though I made it. It's like, oh, I've already seen this in my own brain and it's still funny to me or makes me kind of tear up. Then I feel like, okay, I think people are gonna like this. I am often wrong. And sometimes too, there are things. There's something from that book that I didn't share at all, but someone took a photo of it. That's how it went viral. Is just a photo of a page of a book that people loved.

21:26

Like, it wasn't even like a digital high quality picture. It's just like some random photo.

22:09

Yeah, yeah. Which is interesting as well, but. And also people's attention spans, sometimes they're just what I like to make is things that are really simple and quick and show you something you haven't thought of before. And I think that if it's really easy to digest, people's attention spans are short these days, and if it makes them feel something is another thing. And it's also nice to make something that isn't a lot of physical labor, because some things you can make and it can take you forever to draw out. Because my brain does work in this overthinking kind of way of this, but then, oh, this and then this. People like it when it's really simple.

22:11

Yeah. I love your point about the way, you know, a chart is done is intrinsically you feeling like, this is hilarious. This makes you laugh, makes you feel something. And that's similar to the way I think about my newsletter post. And, yeah, more the newsletter than the podcast. Is it just. To me, it feels like this is, like, really interesting and really good. It's very, like, not waiting for other people to give you approval or feedback. It's like, I feel this is good, and I think that's really interesting that that's similar to the way I approach my stuff. I find that when you work on your charts, you're like. You think so many levels deep. They're like. They're like. So they're, like, too clever sometimes. And I have to, like, pull. Because to your point, people have a short attention span. Sometimes they're, like, too clever, and I have to, like, okay, this is too many layers. You have to understand. And I have to, like, that's a little much. You have to, like, simplify it a little bit.

22:54

Yeah, yeah. You're my editor.

23:47

Sometimes I try, but you're like, no. You're like, I don't care. I don't. I don't care about your feedback. Leave me alone.

23:49

Usually probably right.

23:55

Yeah. Okay, let me ask you one more question, and then we could switch it around again. How do you come up with your ideas for your charts? You have so many such variety. You had an adult book, you had a children's. Now you have a children's book. You're working on charts for parents. You have all this other stuff going on. Where do your ideas come from, Michelle?

23:56

The ideas come from just living life and noticing a lot of things and then also kind of observing a lot. I know that I've been really prolific when I've been meditating and in meditation, you learn to kind of observe your own thinking. And if you're anxious about something, like, oh, that's funny that I was anxious about that random thing that. I've never thought about it that way before, which is interesting because it is kind of like overthinking every moment, which meditation shouldn't be teaching you to do, but that's what happens. But I've noticed if I focus too much on my work, I stop living life, and then I stop having ideas. And it's a little different with children's books, which is what I'm working on right now, because it's not like relatable things a little bit, but it's more children's concepts. But the adult stuff has to be just through living life.

24:14

Noticing.

25:13

Yeah, yeah.

25:13

Noticing makes me think about. I think David Sedaris had this story where he just has to say yes to everything he's invited to just because he needs to have experiences, because he just has to keep pumping out stories. So he's just like, sure, let's go to Vegas right now. Let's do it. So I feel like that's a lot of the work here, is just to live real life. You can't just kind of sit there and come up with ideas. You have to try stuff and do crazy things.

25:14

Yeah. So the first. So my first children's book, which is out soon, that one actually came out of kind of observing parenthood and early new parenthood moments. That's how I started. I started at the beginning of the notebook, writing kind of like trying to make charts for new parents. But we'd been reading so many kids books together that I just had this, like, da, da, da, da, da, da, like, rhythm in my head of Torum's books. And so I just turned to the back of the notebook and started writing more like children's book rhymes involving.

25:37

This is the back of a notebook because you're working on a different book

26:10

and you're just this notebook.

26:12

Oh, this is the notebook to put

26:14

my questions in for you. Yeah. And so I started off in the front. I'm not going to show you.

26:15

So you started in the front on a different idea.

26:20

I started off in the front charts for new parents. And then I was like, got, you know, a few in, you know, like a good amount in. And then I was just in the park writing. And then I kind of was just like, yeah, but I have always wanted to do these charts for kids or for babies. And I just kept wanting to write that. So I started in the back, and then I filled it up that way.

26:22

I love that. This is another example of just following pull and not just doing the thing that you're Doing just like, huh? This is pulling me in. I'm going to try it and just see where it goes. Look at this. What a callback. Okay, back to you, Michelle.

26:45

Back to you.

26:59

Back to me. Back to you. Through me. Through you.

27:00

Yeah, exactly. Okay. Okay, so tell me about. I do want to ask you this question inspired by our friend who, like, reverse nicknames you and says, like, Leonard is your name. Full name Leonard. Where's Lenny come from?

27:02

And by the way, reverse nickname, meaning they give you a nickname without you, like, asking them to.

27:18

Well, there's people who give you a nickname without you asking. That's. Yes, he gives you the full name.

27:22

Oh, I see. Makes it long.

27:27

Yeah, it's not a thing. I'm just making it up.

27:28

Okay, I like that. Okay, so the question is my. My real name? So when I moved to the US from the Ukraine, which we recently chatted about on a podcast with Boris, which turned out to be a big, big news. Odessa, people. Odessa. Yeah. My parents named me. Leonid was my real official first name in the us but they called me Lenny. Everyone called me Lenny. And so when we became citizens, you could change your name. And so my parents just changed it to Lenny. So it's my real name.

27:32

It's just Lenny.

28:00

No.

28:01

Leonard? No.

28:01

Leonardo Leo.

28:02

Yeah, no, yeah, Leonard.

28:03

Just Lenny.

28:05

Just Lenny.

28:06

Yeah.

28:06

I love it. And Leonidas in. It's a Russian name. Or there's also the, like, star constellation.

28:06

Oh, the Leonidas. I don't know. I think they just asked their friends just like, what is. My Russian name is Lenya. And so I think they just like, what's the English version of that? And I'm guessing some of their friends are just like Leonid. I don't know if they named it after anything specific.

28:14

Can I share any of your nicknames? I'm going to assume no.

28:29

What are my nicknames? Okay, go for it. I don't know who they are.

28:32

Like, Lunchik.

28:36

Okay, sure.

28:37

I could share that.

28:38

Sure.

28:39

Do you like it? Yeah. People call you that?

28:39

Well, it's like my family calls me that.

28:42

Okay.

28:43

Yeah. It's like a Russian little nickname.

28:44

Yeah. And you. Okay, but like, strangers, can they call you that?

28:47

No, don't call me that.

28:52

Okay. And speaking of strangers, how do you feel when people approach you and is it weird at all? Does it remind you how big your newsletter has gotten? Or do you like it? Do you like certain ways of approaching it?

28:53

Yeah. So I guess what you're speaking to is. When I walk around the Bay Area, in particular, people often recognize me which is extremely weird. And started with the podcasts once. Like, interestingly, I had the newsletter for four years.

29:07

Yeah, you got to be like. You got to be stealth.

29:20

Yeah. Like, my face was tiny on some Twitter profile. But I. Once I started the podcast, people just. Yeah, it just. It was, like, very weird the first time it started happening. And then. And now it happens quite a lot. I like it a lot. It's very cool. I really appreciate it. It makes me feel really nice. I'm not bothered by it in any way. It always is very flattering. And people are always so nice and just have endless nice things to say. I've never had a bad experience. Someone just trying to say hi to me. So please say hi.

29:22

Okay, that's great.

29:51

And I often ask people what's their favorite podcast episode or favorite newsletter? Because I'm just curious. I always ask, just, like, your founder, your product person, like, what's your story? Yeah, it's really.

29:52

What about if you're in the middle of. If you're, like, at a coffee shop and you have headphones on and somebody says, like, hey. Or if you're, like, playing with your kid, what do you think?

30:00

I think you're projecting about what you wouldn't want, girl. Yeah, people don't do that. I think people have been generally very conscious. You know, there could be a moment of just like, we're getting somewhere, and I can't talk for too long, and I don't want to be rude, or

30:08

you're, like, in a focus.

30:21

Yeah.

30:22

But then.

30:22

Yeah, it hasn't been a problem yet. Almost like 99% of people have been very considerate. And I don't want people to feel like they can't just talk to me

30:24

and say, that's cool.

30:32

Yeah, they're always so cool.

30:34

I like that.

30:35

Yeah.

30:35

Is there any, like, instance of delightful,

30:35

like, maybe the first time this happened? We live in Marin, and I was walking through San Anselmo with you, as you remember, and there's this guy in a little red car driving by with his son. He's driving by, and we're on the sidewalk, and then he just yells, lenny, I love your podcast. God. And this wasn't even San Francisco. It was in San Anselmo. And I was shocked. And then he just kept. He, like, held up traffic just to say hello. I'm like, oh, my God.

30:38

Yeah, I wouldn't do that.

31:10

Yeah, probably wouldn't do that. And then I met him later. He runs a hamburger club in Marin. He's very cool, because I saw him again at another coffee shop. So that was quite delightful.

31:11

I love that. Okay, you just said something. Okay, people coming up to you. Okay, you're gonna have to cut this.

31:21

See, no, we're not gonna cut it, because this is what I go through, too, as a podcast interviewer.

31:32

I thought of something I lost.

31:36

This is what I am constantly dealing with. That is a challenge of the interviewer. And I think it's fun for people to see because you're like, okay, I have to think about what I'm gonna say next. And then you either stop, and then you're like, oh, shit, what's it gonna be? So that's why when I do the podcast, I'm secretly writing notes to myself constantly. So.

31:38

Okay.

31:55

Chicken notes.

31:55

Yeah. Well, okay, I closed my. Okay, I should have written it down. Let's talk about, like, thinking back to what. What kind of hints that you would start this newsletter or, like, things that you worked on when you were younger that are, like, a little. Or, like, mildly adjacent or, like, you know, because you had some wet. Like, some websites you had. Atheist spot. You had, like, you had some Utorials. Utorials. That's one.

31:56

So the question is, like, what are the things I did earlier that helped me with the work I do now? Or.

32:25

Yeah, just because just looking back, like, anything that is kind of, like, makes it obvious that you would have started this newsletter or, like, a little more.

32:30

I don't think there was anything that would have pointed me or anybody to this being the thing that I do now. It's completely unexpected, personally, and I don't think anyone saw it coming. I had never written anything online before I started writing. I was always not like, hey, look at me. I've got all the answers, and I have all this wisdom to share. I was always like, I'm an introvert. I'd like to kind of stay behind the scenes. So it was a. It's a very unexpected path for me. And part of the reason I think I was able to do it is the newsletter started during COVID so I could just sit there and type and put stuff out online. I didn't have to go anywhere and, like, tell everyone I could stay, like, in my little hole. But just to follow through on these things you pointed out that I did earlier, because I don't think I've ever talked about these things. I had all these different side projects before, like, through college, I guess. Yeah, through college. I was, like, a very big atheist, and I'm still an atheist. Jewish atheist, which is many Jews. But I was, like, very into it before, and now I'm like, okay, I don't care. Whatever. Believe it. You want to believe. So I used to run a website called the atheistspot.com, which was Reddit for atheist news, which is not a. You know, Reddit is that. It's fine. I don't. You don't need it. But I went to, like. There's, like, conventions. We went to atheist conventions. So I did that. And the funny thing is that was the. During AdWords, when Google AdWords was a way to monetize your site. And so all the ads on the site, because most of the articles were about religion, were all these religious dating sites. So it was like Christian mingle and all these funny dating sites that didn't make sense for the audience. So I always thought that was funny. And then I worked with a friend on this other project called Utorials, which was so ahead of its time. The idea was utorials tutorials for you by you.

32:37

Nice.

34:24

And so it's people contributing things they've learned and writing a How to. Like, how to make eggs, how to take a quick shower. And it was all these.

34:25

That's like TikTok, right?

34:32

It's like TikTok. It was before Wikipedia.

34:34

No, no, I know. Yeah.

34:36

Yeah. It's like YouTube. It's like.

34:37

That's like what I watch TikTok for is like, watching people make.

34:39

Yeah. And parenting advice and things to be afraid of and dance videos.

34:42

Yeah.

34:46

So that's what your thing was. Or that's what TikTok is.

34:47

That's what TikTok is. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, I was really proud of that.

34:49

Yeah.

34:53

Yeah.

34:53

It sounds. It sounds like it was ahead of time. Local mine was ahead of its time.

34:54

And Local mine. So that was my startup. We sold it to Airbnb. That's how I got there. Local mine, Amazing idea. And not something anyone needs, really.

34:57

I still need it.

35:07

Like, you need it once in a while. So just to briefly explain what that is, it was an app that sat on top of Foursquare in Kuala when that was very cool and allowed you to ask questions of people checked in anywhere in the world. So if you're like, is there a long line at the mill, which is near here? Should I go, Is there a long line? What's like the Spotlight?

35:08

We just use that, basically.

35:25

Yeah, we use. Google does it with their. Like, is it busy?

35:26

Yes.

35:29

Yeah. Like, you know, all these other ways that you could solve this problem. It was very cool. Uh, it was Amazing. Nobody needs it, really.

35:29

If there's still things you want to

35:36

ask, you need like once in a while, you need like once a quarter and it's, holy shit, that's so good. But you know, you can't make a business out of that. So I'm glad that we. We exited.

35:37

Today's episode is brought to you by dx, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. To thrive in the AI era, organizations

35:48

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35:56

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35:57

Okay, so you're mentioning the atheist bot with a bunch of religious dating sites.

36:31

Yeah.

36:36

Reminded me that you were my first online date ever.

36:36

Hell yeah.

36:40

On a snatched red platform called how about we? And I remember that. I mean, you had had other dates.

36:41

Where's this going anyway?

36:49

No, but I remember you were like, had. See, I think you had a thing for designers.

36:51

Yeah.

36:56

And I wonder if you regret that preference. Like designer artists, sort of like.

36:57

No, not at all.

37:02

Stereotype.

37:04

No, no.

37:04

Like, I'm not like. Like, you're pretty neat.

37:05

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. You're kind of chaotic. Yeah. Which is. We can talk about your process, but it's like, it's a messy process. It's true. You know, we have a good yin yang.

37:08

Yeah.

37:17

Yeah. I'm just. Yeah.

37:17

Like, you're unstressed, unbothered. I'm bothered.

37:18

Yeah.

37:22

I'm stressed.

37:23

Just things everywhere.

37:23

Yeah.

37:24

We get cleaners. They help things out. Yeah, it's true. You know, privilege, it's worth it.

37:24

Okay, so you're okay with designers still. Good. And then as a wife.

37:30

Yeah.

37:36

Right, right.

37:37

Highly recommend.

37:37

Oh, okay.

37:38

Yeah. Great.

37:38

So, yeah, I was going to ask, like, do you have any tips for. Because it's like it's, you know, there's something you said recently which is like, you don't have any coworkers. I was like, I'm your coworker. We work at home. But yeah. Do you feel. Do you ever feel, like, lonely? Not because you were always really social and then this goes into too, like, even before you were niche famous or Whatever we want to call it.

37:39

That's how I describe it.

38:00

People were always coming up to you on the street, like, hey, yeah, Airbnb, because you're organizing things. And, um, do you feel like you miss office culture?

38:01

I've. People ask me that over the years, and I've always like, no, it's amazing. I don't need that. Like, I just do my own thing and I don't need people around. But I've kind of started to feel that a little bit. And I'm just like, huh, there's no one. Like, I just sit at home all day. I'm just like, our dog likes to

38:12

be right next to you.

38:27

Yeah. Yeah. He's sweet. Yeah. So I do feel like I do miss it now. It's not like a huge problem, but it's just like, you know, it'd be cool to just jam with someone on stuff. And I have a team and I have you and Twitter.

38:27

Well, you like to go to coffee shops.

38:42

I like to go to coffee. Yeah.

38:43

What do you get?

38:44

But it's like bowling alone kind of. I don't know. It's like, if that's a good metaphor

38:45

and you have your headphones. You put your headphones.

38:48

Headphones on. Yeah.

38:50

And you're focused. That's like.

38:51

Yeah. So it'd be fun. Like, I have an awesome team and we jam on stuff, but it's not like. Like, I think there's a. I do miss having someone next to me that I'm just working with on the same thing. But I also am trying very hard to never have full time employees. I'm trying to keep things really simple because it's so easy to build this thing into, like, this whole thing that's complicated that I'm like, what have I done? One of the challenges with this life is you can create a job for yourself that you hate by doing things that people want you to do or by following opportunities that feel big. And then you're like, I hate this. So I'm trying to be really careful about what I commit to and do. Coming back to your question, I do miss it some. Yeah. It's like a new thing I've realized that I miss is being around other people. Like, working on the same thing.

38:52

Yeah. So speaking of other people, like, coming up to you and being around other people, I think it's become harder for you now that. Now that people you don't know come up to you, because I think you actually have a little bit of face blindness.

39:38

Absolutely.

39:50

Who do know you come up to you. And you're like. And you're, like, waiting to know if they just listen to your podcast or if you.

39:51

I know if. I know that. Yeah. This is a big problem for me. It's like another brain disorder, I guess, where I just don't remember people's names. I'm so bad at it. So I just, like, I know you. Who are you? It's like people texting you from a new number. I'm like, who is this?

39:59

Yeah, sometimes I feel like the Devil Wears Prada assistant, where I'm like, that's Emily. You worked with her on Airbnb. Or that's.

40:15

You don't do that. You need to do that.

40:24

I do it sometimes.

40:25

You do that. Sometimes a guy. Yeah. So bad at that. Okay, so if you come up to me and you say hello and I don't recognize you, please. Sorry. I'm really bad at it. And, yeah, it's, like, gotten worse because now I know more people through the podcast and the newsletter and, like. Right.

40:26

And you just know a lot of people.

40:39

Yeah, it's like,

40:40

you're very kind. So people like you.

40:43

I try. Yeah, try.

40:45

Okay, so going back to the, like, unbothered vibe that you have, tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business, and then a time you've been really stressed in your personal life.

40:47

Okay. So on the business side, so I have this product pass. So as a subscriber to my newsletter, you get 23 incredible products, and I used to read them all. Linear Mob and Lovable Replit, Gamma. I stopped doing this because there's too many now. I had the end of my podcast. I just read through all, and now I can't do it anymore. There's too many. I had a launch about a year ago. It's about a year, actually, where I launched. You get a free year of Cursor and Lovable and Bolt and replit and V0. I think that's five. And so that was way too good an offer. People came for it. Bad people. So I just had so many fraudsters, mostly in China. It turned out just, like, all these fraud rings in China, trying to find ways to steal all my. All these free goodies. So they set up all these crazy attacks, and I had to work with Stripe and Substack to just, like, shut them down. And they just found all these little exploits in our API that we built and like this. So it was, like, such a nightmare because we're just, like, waking up to, like, every night. It was like Hard to sleep. And I have this engineer, Este, who's so incredible, and he, like, didn't sleep for a week. Stopping. Filling all these holes because there's a lot of. A lot of smart, clever bad guys out there. So that was extremely stressful. Like, it could trickle down into the whole thing falling apart if everyone's like, oh, my God, can't trust Lenny anymore. So, as you remember, it was very stressful. I didn't sleep too well, and it was, like, very scary. And there's all these. They just kept popping up, and there's all these, like, rings. And it went viral in China, too. That's like, in the student network. They just. Holy shit. You get a year free of cursor and lovable and replant and bolt and V0. So it was very stressful. To answer your question, on the personal side. Okay, so when our baby was born, the birth was very complicated. You had to get a C section because the induction wasn't getting it there. Because, yeah, it was complicated. Complicated.

40:59

Normally, I feel like I would tell the story, but you weren't awake. But this is also like a When Harry Met Sally. But it's like how the pregnant person almost died, you know? But okay. But it's from your perspective, because I didn't get to experience it.

43:05

Right. So, yeah. So what happened is you had to do a cesarean. They gave you an. And so the idea is they bring you into the operating room, they do the anesthetic, the epidural or whatever it's called, and then they let the husband and the partner in. And so I was waiting in the hall, waiting for them to do the anesthetic with your scrubs. They gave me a whole bunny suit. Yeah. Super sterile. Just standing there in this bunny suit thing. And the idea is they do the anesthetic, and I can come in and then watch the birth and all that stuff. And five, 10 minutes in, I just hear beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. And the doctor runs out, scrubs her hands, runs back in, and then all of the two other people run from another room down the hall into the room. They're like, oh,

43:20

you were scared. You were.

44:10

I was scared. I was very scared because I had no idea what was going on. That didn't sound good.

44:12

Nobody told you anything. Nobody was telling anything.

44:17

I was supposed to be in there. No one's coming out. Like, here's what's happening. And it was like 10 minutes of just nothing.

44:20

Yeah. And you were supposed to be in there after, like, a minute.

44:25

Yeah, it's gonna be quick. Yeah. Yeah. I was supposed to be like, come on in. We're gonna do this here, you know, and, like, you're awake during it, you know, in real life. So just remember pacing down the hall, using. Coming back to the lessons I've learned. Just like, it's gonna be okay. It's going to be okay. That's what I remember saying to myself. Just kind of trust that they know what they're doing. You know, we're in a hospital. There's a lot of doctors around. And then eventually they came back and they just said that the epidural went the wrong direction and said instead of going down, it went up your body, and so was stopping your heart and lungs. And they had to intubate you and do an emergency intubation and get the baby out. And then took like an hour for you to come back. They were going to put you in the ICU to help you come back. So that was very scary because you weren't there. I don't know what's going on.

44:28

And you got to hold the baby for like, an hour without. So that's why he's like a. He's like only papa. He's another person that prefers you.

45:17

Who's the other person?

45:30

Our dog.

45:31

For now. For now.

45:34

You're a sweet guy, but. Yeah.

45:35

Yeah, that was really scary.

45:38

Stressful.

45:39

Yeah.

45:39

Because you thought that was going to be okay.

45:40

Yeah, that was the thing that helped. But it was, like, very scary because it's just like, life could be completely different now. Like, something like, you know, like, you could have, like, the guy. The anesthesiologist said it was a 1 in 50,000 chance, and it's like the worst scenario. That is very rare and very dangerous. And so it was extremely scary. And luckily, he did a great job. And everyone's like, he killed it. Did like, he. He knew exactly what to do. He handled it really well. But.

45:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't have any memory.

46:10

You don't remember this?

46:13

Yeah, it numbed my. Came back, numbed my lungs, and I was like, I can't breathe. And then. And then I numbed my spinal. What is it? Brain stem. And then I passed out.

46:13

How about that?

46:24

How about that? I didn't get to have any.

46:25

Yeah. How does it. Looking back? Are you. Are you.

46:27

We don't have to talk about it.

46:29

Okay.

46:30

That's what you said. But it's interesting to not have an experience around It. And the experience was the live experience.

46:33

It's probably the scariest moment in my life.

46:40

Yeah. And I didn't know anything about it because they put me under general anesthesia, and then I was all loopy, and then I didn't even know really what. And then later I read the report, like, months later I read it. I actually had someone else read it who was in the field, and she's like, it was your cousin Lois. And she, like, moved her thick glasses, like, wow.

46:43

Yeah. She's like a nurse backhand. Yeah.

47:03

Anyway, stressful moment. Yeah. So you used your tools.

47:05

Yeah, I used my tools. Otherwise, you know. That's a good point, because it could have been, like, spiral.

47:10

Like, oh, my God, we had a doula, but she had left.

47:14

The doula was going to be there. Yeah. For cesarean. She's like, it can't be here. Yeah. Okay. I want to ask you a question, but unless you have something we want to follow up with. Okay. So you come up with these incredible charts. They're just like. You know, it's like the kind of charts you see on the Internet that are like, oh, my God, that's so genius. And watching you come up with it is so wild because it just pops out of nowhere, and then there's, like, a little bit of iteration, and that's it. What's the process for you coming up with a chart? And what's, like, the environment that you need to create your best work? I feel like coffee is a big part of it.

47:17

Coffee is like. It's like, not too much. There's one I have that. It's like. I mean, it has to be the perfect amount of coffee. So I actually usually get a single shot.

47:50

Do you know about the bomber peak, by the way? Quick tangent.

47:57

Okay.

47:59

Okay. So there's a concept called the bomber peak from xkcd, which is just the right amount of alcohol, where you're the most insightful and creative, and then it falls down, which is like. I don't know. I forget why this is Steve Ballmer related, but. Okay, so the bomber peak of peak.

48:00

I have one like that about coffee, but it's not. It's made out of a little coffee straw.

48:14

And it's like, we're going to show this on YouTube if you're watching this so you could see the chart.

48:17

It's like, I'm a genius, and then I'm having a panic attack. And so that's me. Is. Is like. Is like. Yeah. I'll get to this point where I feel like I Mean, coffee is a drug, right? So if I have too much, it is like a drug. And I'm. I feel like a genius, and I'm, like, having all these ideas, but then I think it's. It's too, like. I don't know if this was a real image, but there was an image of spiderwebs. And it's like this is a spider web that ingested some.

48:20

This.

48:44

I don't.

48:45

LSD and stuff.

48:45

Oh, yeah. And then this is this. That had spider. That had coffee. And it's like, instead of a regular web, it's like a web that goes like this. Like, it's like, just erratic and tangential. And I have some. Some really good. Some really good, like, seeds of ideas in those moments. Then I have to go, like, scream into a pillow or something.

48:46

Was that when you have too much

49:04

coffee or that I have too much coffee, but. But if there's a point, like, right before that.

49:05

So single shot latte.

49:09

Single shot is what I get. Single shot latte. At least an hour. Sometimes it's good to have, like, a. Somewhere I have to be a time limit. And then I'm kind of like. I feel like a machine. And it's, like, trying really hard to get somewhere. And then the other thing is just, like, a lot of it is writing something down as I'm out in the world and then putting it. Trying to put it on paper in a way that visualizes it because I'm not strong at drawing and. Yeah, when I was a kid, my dad did a lot of math with me and a lot of, like, you know, fractals and visualization and patterns. And so I sort of think that way, like, mathematically, kind of. And. Yeah, so it helps me to visualize an idea that in the simplest way possible.

49:10

Let me just say this is very cool that we're doing this. This is, like, really fun. So sweet. Oh, yeah. This was, like, really nice.

49:59

Yeah. This is our Odessa moment. Yeah.

50:06

You're born in Odessa, too?

50:11

No, no. But one of my questions was like, I don't know. This would be, like. If I were in the audience, it would be more like a comment.

50:12

Go on.

50:19

Versus a question.

50:20

We're just pretending to be a question.

50:21

Yeah, we're both. Our families are both from countries that, like, mine from Venezuela, yours from Ukraine, where people are always like, oh, does that like. Like, we didn't just arrive, right, From Venezuela or Ukraine, so it's, like, not the same. So we have to almost make them feel okay. Like, it's okay. I mean, My family still lives in Venezuela, but.

50:23

Okay, so I asked you a question. Okay, that's back to you.

50:44

Okay, great.

50:47

Oh, yeah, no. Okay, let me reflect back what you said, because this is really interesting. So a single shot. So it's like some kind of like, neuro stimulation. I don't know. Single shot. Just enough. I like this deadline piece that was really interesting.

50:48

And it's like, not too much time. Not 30 minutes. Although that can be why I'm late. Optimism. I've almost got it. I'm a time optimist, as you know that. I'm like, I think I have it. But a good time is like two hours, and then I have to be somewhere in two hours.

51:02

Interesting. Okay, so those are two elements. And then was there another for optimal creativity?

51:24

Oh, a good night of sleep.

51:30

Yeah, yeah.

51:32

The bad night of sleep, plus too much caffeine. Then you don't have any. You know, you have no ideas. You just have the, like, frantic piece of the caffeine. The, like, mental energy.

51:34

Anything else? This is really interesting, I think just the idea of what creates creativity.

51:44

Just, like, experiences. Experiences and thinking and almost like, thinking too much about them.

51:49

Thinking. I like that. Maybe overthinking.

51:54

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

51:56

Back to you, Michelle. Real.

51:58

Oh, to. Back to me. To you. Yeah. Okay, so we did the thunder round. We did the. The. The worst things to hear. Okay. And the best sounds which your sons laugh.

51:59

Yeah.

52:11

Yeah. Agree. Do you. Okay, we probably know your favorite, like, product management books. Do you have a favorite children's book other than mine, to read to?

52:11

Charts for babies.

52:22

And also, like. And also, maybe you could. You could do more than one because, you know, they, like, maybe there's one when you.

52:23

As a baby, like, I feel like a chart is. And you never take my ideas because I feel like you don't want to.

52:30

I don't want it.

52:37

You want it to be your ideas.

52:37

Yeah.

52:38

But I feel like there's a books you love that are children's books and books your kid loves.

52:39

Yeah.

52:43

Right. And that's like, I hate reading this one. But he loves it, so we're gonna do it.

52:43

Yeah.

52:47

So it's like he decides what his favorite are. I love John Classen books. They're so, like, beautiful and just, like, sweet. So those have been really.

52:47

Are they sweet?

52:57

They're, like, actually not sweet. You're right. There's, like, death in all of them.

52:58

Yeah.

53:01

Yeah. They all end in death.

53:02

Yeah. Like, Jude's new thing is like, he ate the bunny.

53:03

Is it the bear. The bear book? Yeah. Like, he stole my hat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, we start the book and he's like, he ate the bunny. Where's the bunny? Licking his belly.

53:07

But yeah. Is there any overlap? You think there's a favorite? That one is. That's his favorite. That you now love because that you didn't love initially.

53:17

Yeah. Like Dr. Seuss. I think we've similarly feel it's like way too long as one because it's like 50 pages, 60 pages.

53:27

Come on.

53:35

It's a lot of words and there's just all these made up animals. And he's like, what's a zong? Yeah, like there. That's a zong. Yeah.

53:36

You're like trying to teach them real things in the world. And then he's like, what was that? Tale of a Songs. Like what?

53:43

Vipper from Vip? Yeah. No. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. I don't like that.

53:48

But we like reading them.

53:53

We've kind of used. Yeah, there's like a rhythm.

53:54

Well, like anything in Spanish I read to them, obviously. And. Yeah, I mean, anything you want to say about, like, I don't know, is there any sort of like, product. Anything you've learned in product management or growth that has translated to parenting?

53:56

You know, like, product management is all about influence, and that's basically parenting.

54:13

That's why he likes you better.

54:20

Why? Because I can influence. But you also have to make him do stuff, you know?

54:22

Yeah, yeah.

54:25

They're like, you do have authority. You know, all the responsibility without the authority, but you do have authority. So then they feel like toddlers. That's true. Just like, nope. You sit there.

54:25

Yeah, I feel like I see your product management in that. Like, you make him like, I should be the one making him a chart. But you may. You make him like the. Like, here's how if bedtime gets too long, you're like, here's how bedtime's gonna go. We're gonna read you three books. You get a star. And then also I'm answering for you. Sorry. Other things where it's like. Things where it's where I'm kind of like, yeah, it just happens the way it's happened. You're like, no, I read a book on it. I read three books on it. And this is how we're going to do it. And. And that's. And it's going to work. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

54:39

Right. Yeah. I'm not like an intuition guy. I'm just like, what if the smartest people figured out about this? This isn't the first time somebody has tried to shorten bedtime, Right?

55:09

Shorten bedtime, sleep through the night.

55:19

Right?

55:21

Yeah.

55:22

Yeah. There's like. Yeah, there's like smart people that have tried this stuff before and can tell me what they've done.

55:22

Small eye roll. Okay, so I guess this is, I think, my last question for you and I don't know if you want to answer it, but I, as your wife of however many years, like 10 still, I don't think I know what product management is. Can you tell me in five words?

55:29

That's hilarious. Okay, I will. My words are impact, collaboration, judgment, alignment. And this is a really good question. And it's almost like the. The order is like how you think about product management. Like, you know, it's like the order you put them in. And what else? I'll just say some stuff because it's really interesting coordination.

55:48

I think it's five.

56:15

Organizing, planning.

56:16

Okay.

56:20

Outcomes.

56:21

I have tuned out.

56:22

There's so many. It's like, shut up. So boring. And I'm just like, what should have I said? That's what I'm going to think about now. But it's. Yeah, it's like a crazy, weird job. All these different things. Yeah, I'm just like sniped. I want to keep thinking.

56:23

Yeah, I keep.

56:35

I'll give you my definition of product management.

56:36

Yeah. But you can't say mini CEO.

56:37

No, no. Mini CEO.

56:40

That's.

56:41

That's not cool.

56:41

Okay.

56:42

Although I actually do think is I'm as a minicio. Like, I think people keep saying you're not, but I think you are.

56:42

Yeah. You can't say like, not a project manager.

56:47

Not a project manager. That's right. I think the way I describe it is your job as a product manager is to deliver business impact by prioritizing and solving the most impactful business problems. Something like that. That's many words.

56:51

Yeah.

57:06

You're like, this is why I never know what it is. It's so boring. What are you talking about?

57:08

Cool.

57:13

Like, this comes back to the mini CEO thing. Just to close that thread. I feel like the PM on the team is basically should be thinking the way the CEO thinks. You know, like their job is to think, what would the CEO do on this specific product or feature? Because the CEO's job is make this success will make this business grow. And so your job as a PM is to kind of channel that what will allow this team and product to help the business be more successful.

57:14

Do you feel like you're doing that as. As the. I guess you are.

57:38

I'm everything, you know, like, in my current world.

57:42

Right.

57:44

You're editor in chief, too.

57:44

Editor in chief, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I have a copy editor. I have an editor, so I've helped.

57:46

Oh, right, yeah, yeah.

57:50

People ask me, what about product management helped me do the job I do now. I don't think there's anything, to be honest, except just, like, things I was already into, which is just being very organized, having a very high bar for quality. Communicating, like, I think communication maybe is just like how to succinctly communicate points so that people grasp them.

57:51

That's like, whoa, look at this.

58:11

We're the same. Introducing.

58:14

The key is just communicating something simply.

58:18

Wow. Well, let me ask you one more question. So maybe it's a close. You wrote two adult books. You now did a children's book. Why the pivot to children's books? Why'd you decide to do a children's book?

58:22

I wanted to do a children's book based on the first adult book because I thought that charts are. So There are a ton of early learning concepts put together. So if you look at children's books, the themes are often opposites, colors, shapes, feelings. And then I was thinking, you can really teach a lot from a chart. And it's so simple. So it's a lot of opposites. It's big and small. You've got going up and going down. You've got overlapping colors becoming another color. You can make a lot of feelings with charts. That's the second book in the series that. That I'm.

58:36

It's coming out next year.

59:22

Yeah, but we. But, yeah, I finished it, but it still takes about a year to come out after that. But, yeah, it was this. Like, I wanted to work on it in abstract. Like, I had the thought of wanting to work on it, but it didn't come until I started trying to work on another adult book that I really just had all these rhymes in my. Like, it was more like a cadence. I had just like this, like, da, da, da, da, da, you know, my head. And yeah, I just tried it, and it came really quickly, the first draft. And. Yeah, and it also. Yeah, I always wanted to make one because as a little girl, my dad wanted me to. He was a geophysicist. He wanted me to be strong at math. He was like, you know, because at the time, it was kind of like, girls weren't encouraged necessarily to be good at math. So he. From just like, a young age, he was always showing me. I did the same with our son, too. Like, always showing him patterns and like, oh, if you flip it, it's like that. And it's just really fun for me. And it's cool, too, writing the first one with our son, growing up, learning from experience, like I was saying, like, having the experiences of him as a baby and like, how I'm learning how to teach him things, then he gets a little older. And then that helped me work on the feelings. And I've also learned how to speak to kids as well. When I didn't have any, I was like, I don't know what to say to you. And now it feels more natural. And so I had a children's book that I tried to write before I had kids. And for me, that one wasn't as good. And so I feel like I gained a little bit of just like, how to talk to child.

59:24

That's a really good segue. Or not segue. I don't know. Connection to something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from actual experience. Because you had a children's book, like you just said that you wrote before you had, and then it wasn't good. And now having the experience, you can actually make something great.

1:00:59

Yeah. And then also, like, another thing I thought about was just reading so many children's books. People always say, if you want to write, read. And yeah, we read a lot. We read still a lot, a lot of books. And it just got me in that zone too.

1:01:15

Yeah. It just makes me think about something I think has been key to my newsletter success is it is based on real life doing the thing. At this point, most of my posts are guest posts where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career. Like the one thing they want to share, which I love. And it all comes from something I focus a lot on, is from people on the ground doing the thing, not just floating in the clouds pontificating. And that's the source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real, not just pontificating. I think that's a really good. Maybe one takeaway is just the best stuff comes from doing the thing and then sharing your advice versus just thinking you know what you're doing, communicating it simply. Simply and just like refining. I don't even get into just all the work that goes into refining.

1:01:30

And then. Yeah, you always talk about, like, yeah, another thing I do is like, I often. It's stressful because I make things and I am not sure if they're good enough yet. And I put them to the side. And then I come back and I might have an idea. Knowing that it's already in my head, I might have an idea like, oh, yeah, that's what's gonna make that better. Or I go to work on it again and some other thing adds to it. But then as you've set it aside, then you see something else. You see something in the world like, oh, shoot, somebody beat me to that thing. I didn't ever do anything with, like.

1:02:17

So that's to, like.

1:02:45

To, like, have something sitting, like, with. With maybe with your podcast and.

1:02:48

Yeah. Well, let me ask you this, and I'll answer for my own myself. How many iterations do you do on a chart on average? Like, how many times do you, like, edit it and refine it?

1:02:52

Uh, it depends.

1:03:00

Yeah.

1:03:02

Yeah.

1:03:02

What's like, the median?

1:03:03

At least five.

1:03:04

Okay. Like, for me, I think it's like 60.

1:03:05

I was gonna say a hundred.

1:03:09

Okay. That's probably the real answer.

1:03:10

But I can't even physically do that. It's like I. I need.

1:03:12

Yeah, yeah. It's just like.

1:03:15

Well, what do you mean by.

1:03:17

So, like, when I write a newsletter post, I go through it probably, let's say 50 times, making it better. Like, I start, there's like, something that's the beginnings, and then read through it and add to it, read through it, add to it, read through it, add to it, improve, improve, improve, like 50 times. And then I have my editor go through it and have a copy editor go through it and the designer help me.

1:03:18

You don't do that with your emails, though?

1:03:36

I. No, I should.

1:03:38

I do do that with my emails, which is. Should be. I shouldn't be doing that. Like, I read them over and over.

1:03:41

You do? Okay. I used to. I used to.

1:03:45

But no, I do. I. Yeah.

1:03:48

Anyway.

1:03:49

Yeah.

1:03:50

Anything else?

1:03:50

Oh, I mean, yeah. Let me. You plug. Do you want to plug?

1:03:51

Absolutely. When is it coming out?

1:03:55

April 7th.

1:03:57

April 7th. So it's like a few weeks, I think, from when this comes out. Assuming this comes out. Yeah, we'll see how it turns out.

1:03:57

We're going to check it out.

1:04:03

We'll check it out. If you're seeing this. We checked it out.

1:04:04

Yeah.

1:04:07

It was a success.

1:04:07

It was. Okay.

1:04:08

So charts for babies coming out? April 7.

1:04:09

April 7.

1:04:11

April 7.

1:04:12

Yeah.

1:04:13

All your favorite retailers?

1:04:13

Yep. Local bookstore? Local bookstores, wherever you buy your book.

1:04:15

What's the age range of kids?

1:04:19

It's two to four. It's called for babies. I did do a chart recently about, like, how long is your baby a Baby. And yeah, it's like, baby is. This infant is like 1 to 2. And then it's like, it's your baby infinity. Yeah. So I've noticed, like, we still call him the. We're not really an baby.

1:04:20

Oh, for sure.

1:04:40

Yeah. Um, but he's like almost three and so, yeah, it could be like, I would say 0 to 4 or. And. Yeah. You know what? Should I grab it?

1:04:40

Yeah, let's grab it. Let's just break the frame, people.

1:04:49

On the recording hit. But the. The first, like, the end paper is what this is called. It shows all the, like, things you could learn. Sizes, shapes, lines, numbers, directions, feelings, colors, mounts, sharing concepts, relationships, opposites. Anyway, I'm not good at self promotion, clearly, so let's all stuff it. Yeah. It's a lot of learning.

1:04:52

It's beautiful. It's hilarious. It's clever.

1:05:11

It's early learning concepts.

1:05:15

Funny.

1:05:16

It's simply illustrating.

1:05:17

Check it out.

1:05:18

Rhyming.

1:05:19

We'll do it.

1:05:19

Yeah.

1:05:20

Congrats on releasing this book. Thank you. I know it's a lot of work.

1:05:21

Thanks. It was a lot of work. I did have a lot of iterations.

1:05:23

The secret to success.

1:05:27

Yeah.

1:05:28

Iteration. Editing.

1:05:29

Editing.

1:05:31

Okay.

1:05:31

Spending more time is what your old boss used to say.

1:05:32

Spend more time on it.

1:05:34

Spend more time.

1:05:35

I'm glad.

1:05:35

Yeah.

1:05:36

Anyway.

1:05:37

Okay. All good. We done.

1:05:37

Michelle, thank you so much for being here.

1:05:40

Thank you for having me.

1:05:42

I'll ask you my typical questions that ask at the end. How can. Where do people find you online? How can listeners be useful to you?

1:05:43

My website, michelle. Real.comr I A L or I'm also on Instagram.

1:05:49

Not.

1:05:53

Not too much these days, but still a little bit. You can look for the book charts for babies.

1:05:54

Great.

1:05:59

Yeah. I don't know when this will be out. You can either pre order it or order it.

1:05:59

Great.

1:06:03

Yeah.

1:06:05

Parentheses, pre. But order. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Michelle, thanks for being here and I

1:06:07

hope you like it. And thank you. Thanks for having me.

1:06:11

My pleasure.

1:06:14

I know you have a high bar.

1:06:15

Absolutely. You hit it.

1:06:16

Okay, great. And yeah, I hope you were okay with the interview.

1:06:18

A plus. It's gonna. It's gonna do numbers. All right, let's get out of here. Okay. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can

1:06:22

subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating

1:06:33

or leaving a review as that really

1:06:40

helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show@lennyspodcast. Dot com. See you in the next episode.

1:06:42