821 Expert On Board; Foreign Correspondent Lyse Doucet

As the chief international correspondent for the BBC, Lise Doucette has been on the front lines of major world conflict zones for the past 40 years. Coming up on Travel with Rick Steves, she shares the challenges journalists are facing today and why we need honest reporting now more than ever. But I still really absolutely fundamentally believe that there is no alternative to on-the-ground, in-the-heat-and-dust, face-to-face journalism. James Grant Peterkin's an expert on the culture and language of Easter Island. He delivers tales from the South Pacific on cruise ships and suggests if you have an expertise people would enjoy hearing about, you, too, could be in demand as a cruise ship guest lecturer. It's a very unusual, very eclectic group of people. Hear how to get the most out of a sea cruise and a heart-to-heart with one of today's most accomplished international reporters. It's just ahead on Travel with Rick Steves. If you book a South Pacific cruise from Chile to Easter Island, you might be joined by one of today's foremost experts on the island and the Rapa Nui culture. In just a minute, James Grant Peterkin tells us about working the cruise ship lecture circuit. And one of today's most respected journalists is back with us on Travel with Rick Steves to tell us what it takes to work as an international correspondent. In just a bit, Lise Doucette brings us a personal look at global news reporting so that we can be savvy consumers of news from around the world. If you boarded a cruise ship in Chile, it would take you five days to reach the famed and remote Easter Island. And for those days at sea, someone needs to keep the passengers not just entertained, but educated and inspired. That's where James Grant Peterkin comes in. As a young linguistic student, he first stumbled onto Easter Island in 1996 and ended up staying there for 20 years, learning the language and integrating with the culture. Eventually, he started a private tour company, and in 2017, he began giving history and anthropology-themed lectures on cruise routes in the South Pacific. And after talking to James about his time on Easter Island, I thought it would be fun to know what it's like to work on a cruise ship as a lecturer. So I've invited James back to the show to give us an insider's view of working on board the ship. James, good to have you back. Hi, Rick. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. Yeah, so you spent half your time as a tour guide on Easter Island and half your time as a speaker on cruise ships. How'd you get that job? Well, it was unusual because I didn't really know that the job even existed. And I was suddenly approached by one of the cruise lines that did used to come to or pass Easter Island occasionally. And they asked me if there might be a chance that I could give a series of lectures about Easter Island for the passengers as the ship obviously made its way slowly across the Pacific towards Easter Island. And I thought, why not? That sounded an interesting thing to do. It tied in slightly with my touring work that I was doing at the time. And so, yes, I said yes to the first one and it went well. And then I just sort of carried on doing it and expanding slightly into different routes as well. I would think that cruise ships and cruise lines talk to each other. And if you get a reputation as an engaging guide and teacher and entertaining lecturer on the ship, you'd be a hot commodity and other lines would want you to work for them also. They do. So surprisingly, given how large the industry is, the actual sort of business end of the cruise ships is fairly small. And so this is why when I do sometimes advise people on becoming cruise ship lecturers, and I always say that, you know, You've got to do well with one line and you'll be amazed what doors that then subsequently opens. Yeah, I bet. Because I've really enjoyed the lectures on the cruise ships that I've taken in Europe and in the Caribbean. And for me, it's a big part of the cruise experience. But I would think that it's a challenge to get the people on the ship to take seriously the value of your lectures. What's your take on the curiosity of the people that take the cruise? and what are your challenges as a lecturer to fill the hall? Well, in a way, it depends very much on the line that you're lecturing for because some lines, they really push lectures. They really advertise the fact that they do have experts on board who will hopefully enlighten and enrich your crews. And so on those ones, actually, you're very fortunate because you don't have to really do much marketing to get people through the door. What you obviously have to do is then try and keep them once they've started coming to your lectures. And so in that sense, of course, you've got to do a good job. I think I always say to people it's much harder if you're asked to lecture on board a line where I always say if they've got water slides and things like that, then as a lecturer you're going to have a difficult job because people haven't come on that ship to listen to someone talking for 45 minutes about the history of wherever you happen to be. Because I was on a cruise ship in the Mediterranean once, and the guy was great. And, you know, he was the guy, the one lecturer on the ship. and he knew about every port we're going to. 3,000 tourists are cruisers on that ship, and he had a tough time getting 50 people out of those 3,000 to actually sit down for an hour and listen to his talk that would prepare you to understand Mykonos or Santorini or Ephesus. And I just thought, what a lost opportunity. But it really does depend on the personality of the clientele that is attracted to a particular cruise line, which is shaped by the way they advertise their ship. And there's not really much you can do as a lecturer beyond hoping that the line, and particularly those on board the ship when the guests come on, are pushing your lectures and therefore advertising them and encouraging people, as you say, not to miss out on this opportunity, to have someone who really knows what they're talking about, generally speaking, telling you for free what they're sharing with you, their knowledge. Nice. Do you have a lot of free time then? And do you socialize with the crew or the other entertainers? Is it kind of like running away with the circus and you got this crazy group of people that you get to hang out with? I mean, you, of course, meet many of the guests. So you're treated as a guest on board the ship. So you're not actually allowed into the crew parts of the ship. So you fraternize with guests. But yes, there's also a small community of people, other lecturers, entertainers that have been flown on for a week if they're musicians or whatever they do. And that sometimes becomes your family, if you like, for that week or two weeks that you're on board that particular ship. So it's again, it's a world that I had no idea existed when I first when I first signed up. Do some people just do it for a free cruise or is it well paid? Nearly everyone does it for free cruise. I mean, that's really the deal that cruise lines, of course, understand that people are keen to cruise and a very good way for people to do that for normally for free. Sometimes you might even pay a small fee to an agency for them to place you on a cruise ship. That a way to do that is to have a series of talks that you can present. And, you know, of course, you've got to have the background to match what you're offering. But many people, particularly retirees, they will spend months sometimes at sea going from ship to ship, sharing their knowledge with interested audiences. So you don't need to feel guilty about having a good time when you're at sea between your lectures because you're sort of swapping. your talents as a teacher or a musician or a comedian with a chance to take a cruise and enjoy a vacation. Yeah, yeah. So that's why it's very relaxed. That's a good life. Many people do choose that lifestyle, particularly if they live in colder climates. It's a great way to escape winter, for example. If you can put together a series of interesting talks, get yourself in front of some of the cruise lines. It's a booming industry. and therefore they're, I think, always on the lookout for good educational speakers. We're getting a different look at cruise ships today on Travel with Rick Steves with James Grant Peterkin. He's the author of A Companion to Easter Island and the Travel Enrichment Series books on the South Pacific, on Transatlantic and South America. James operates a private tour company on Easter Island for part of the year and gives history lectures on cruise ships for the other. His website, if you want to learn more about his work, is jamesgrantpeterkin.com. So, James, let's talk about the cruise business for just a minute. First of all, it was a tough time during COVID. How has the cruise industry recovered from COVID? Your experience is mostly in the South Pacific. Well, yes, I would say they suffered enormously, but I would also say they've bounced back surprisingly quickly. And certainly the rate at which they're launching new ships, bigger and bigger ships often, or more and more luxurious ships, seems to show that cruising is very much here to stay, and if anything, it's just going to continue to get more and more popular. So clearly the way in which this industry is going is that this is going to go from bigger and bigger and continue to grow. And from reading your books, South Pacific and A Companion Guide to Easter Island, it's clear that you care about the environment. A big complaint among consumers who care about the environment is climate change and cultural damage and environmental damage. What's your take on the impact of the cruise industry on fragile island communities and economies? I mean, I feel it has to be very well managed because obviously there's always a risk that particularly islands that have a great attraction to large numbers of people at once could very easily be simply swamped by enormous cruise ships coming in. It's interesting, certainly in my part of the world, to see that French Polynesia has begun limiting these enormous cruise ships from calling at certain islands. Easter Island, where I spent more than two decades living, has always had a very sort of reticent relationship with cruise ships. They haven't tried to build the infrastructure to attract any more of them. But at the same time, one has to remember that a lot of people really only have the option to travel by cruise ship. some of these faraway places. It's really the only way to get in and out of them. And therefore, I think we also have to be careful about not just simply saying, you know, cruise ships are awful, the bane of tourism, and they ruin places like in Europe and things like that. So I think there's got to be a balance, and that's for each island, each port, to decide what they're going to do. James, your specialty is South Pacific, and a lot of us are dreaming of the South Pacific. Just to finish off our conversation, And in kind of a nutshell, what's your wisdom on a traveler who's never been to the South Pacific that wants to experience it in a way that goes beyond the natural wonders and actually get into the cultural wonders? What's your advice when you're sorting through all the cruise options? So I would, again, I would look carefully at the itineraries. Sometimes it will lure you into the fact that you're going to a lot of islands in one itinerary. But if you look closely, you might realize that, in fact, what you're seeing are a lot of the, of course, the capital cities, the main ports of each place. And those places are actually harder to get a real sense of the real country, whichever island nation you've decided that you'd like to see. So sometimes actually in cruising in the South Pacific, I would often recommend people that they actually focus more on one particular part of it, that whether you fly in and out of French Polynesia into Tahiti and take a cruise just around the islands of French Polynesia, but to really try and focus where you're going rather than necessarily crossing off seven or eight countries in one cruise itinerary but at the end of it coming away and not really having seen much in any depth. So fly into one region of the South Pacific and then take a smaller ship that's going to smaller ports away from the big hubs and you're likely to get away from the homogeneity that comes with modernization and more connection with the diversity that adds to the wonder of South Pacific cultures. Is that right? I think so. And you'll also be treated differently. I mean, if you turn up in an outer island of Honga, for example, you'll get a very different reception to turning up in the main island of Fiji, for example. And so these are realities of travel that we all know that the further off the beaten track you can get, then the rewards are greater if you want them. James Grant Peterkin, And thanks so much for writing South Pacific and a companion to Easter Island. Best wishes with your work And thanks for sharing with us your love of a beautiful corner of this planet of ours Happy travels Thank you very much and thank you for having me on You can listen to James Grant Peterkin's earlier interview with us about Easter Island in our show archives from October 2025. We have a link to get you there at ricksteves.com slash radio. Next, the BBC's Elise Doucette joins us for a personal look at what it's like to work as an international journalist, reporting for some 40 years from the world's hotspots, and why it still matters. You're listening to Travel with Rick Steves. Just like travel gets us a better understanding of our world, foreign correspondents inject that personal, firsthand look at our complicated world and are critical for quality news coverage. Lise Doucette is the BBC's chief international correspondent, and for more than four decades, she's reported from the front lines of the world's most significant conflicts. Known for her clarity, empathy, and hard truths, she brings humanity to her stories. She joins us today on Travel with Rick Steves to talk about what it means to witness war and to keep telling the truth when the world wants to look away. Lise, thanks for joining us. Great pleasure and a privilege, Rick. Thank you. You know, to witness war and to keep telling the truth when the world wants to look away. What do you mean by this? To witness, to tell the truth when the world wants to look away? It's one of the great, great privileges, but also the great responsibility of being a journalist, but in particular being a journalist in a country and cultures which aren't our own. Because often we don't just watch from the sidelines of history. More and more we are smack in the middle of this history. and it's both exhilarating, can be dangerous, but it's also trying to get to the truth of a story because for all of our dazzling changes in technology and the world of being a journalist is unrecognizable from when I started, now we can carry in our pocket a phone that if necessary, we can do everything with. And we can go onto social media platforms and we can hear, we can see what is happening on the other side of the world. But I still really absolutely fundamentally believe that there is no alternative to on the ground, in the heat and dust, face-to-face journalism, where you not only see and hear and smell, you can also feel what is happening in a place. And you can talk to people, talk to people with different points of view to try to piece together as much as possible something closer to the truth. Lise, this is a travel show, and a lot of us are wondering, my goodness, the places you go, I mean, talk about getting out of your comfort zone. Give us just a little insight into the nitty-gritty, the practicalities of it, you know, the process. There's breaking news, your home offices, send somebody over there, you get the assignment, you have to get a plane ticket, you've got to cross borders. What is it like? How do you get into these places that the rest of us, I think, would never be able to go or figure it out. First, you wait for the call or you expect the call. You hear something's happening on the news and your phone rings and you know it's going to be your editor. So this is off the record, Rick, of course. Make sure your listeners don't tell anyone. Nobody will know. No, no. My editor calls, I don't answer. I think, okay, I've got to make a decision. Do I want to go or do I not? What does the opportunity cost? Because one of the worst things about having this kind of a job is letting people down. So you think, what have I committed to? Who am I going to let down? Who's going to be disappointed? But sometimes the stories are simply too big. So you pick up the phone and you say, right, yes, we're on the next plane. But as a traveler going to unpredictable places, I try as much as possible to have a little predictability. In fact, a lot of predictability. So I travel with Yorkshire tea bags. I often bring a kettle if I don't think the hotel will have one. I also bring a big mug because I like a big mug of tea. Now, sometimes my editors make fun of me, but for example, when I covered the Kashmir earthquake many years ago, my little kettle kept the whole crew going because what is the drug of foreign correspondence of journalists in general? Coffee, tea. So when I wake up in the morning, I can have a big mug of strong tea, and then I'm ready to face the day. Okay. So you've got your tea, you've got all of your little comforts of home in the one hotel in town that is the oasis for the international correspondence. Now you've got to get out there into the streets. Are you concerned about being kidnapped, or are you mindful that both sides in this conflict value us because they want to get in the news, so they're going to protect us and not bomb us? Do you have techniques for talking to the bad guys in a way that opens them up to being candid with you, these kind of tools of the trade? The world of a journalist has changed beyond recognition and not just in terms of technology, Rick, there was a time where journalists felt they had some kind of immunity, that just being a journalist gave you a status that kept you safe. That ended with the kidnapping of journalists in Lebanon many years ago. It ended spectacularly when, and I don't want to go into the details, when journalists were kidnapped by the so-called Islamic State group, and there were those horrific videos of beheadings. Journalists now think twice before they rush off anywhere. There's been an expression in journalism, which is as old as journalism in war itself, which is that no story is worth dying for. But it was in the Syrian war a few decades ago when Syria never left the headlines, where journalists began to say, no story is worth dying for. But there are stories worth taking risks for. And it has to be a careful calculation of risk versus reward. Am I going to be able to publish that story? What will I get when I put myself at risk? The environment in which journalists operate in terms of their organizations have changed as well. Journalists going into high risk zones, usually for insurance reasons, but also for the peace of mind, have to do these courses which teach you about how to operate in high risk zones. What happens if you get injured or your team gets injured? What to do if you're kidnapped? How to act when you're up against threatening border guards? They make you go through all of that. Broadcasters the world over do this. And also newspapers as well, because it's all about keeping you safe. We have to fill out a form which goes through all of the possibilities. If this happens, what will you do? Where are the hospitals? Where are the airports? Who are the people you will contact? Before we even step out the door, all of these preparations have to be done. It's about keeping everyone safe. And freelancers as well. When we go, we bring extra flak jackets so that the driver with us has body armor. The local producers with us also have body armor. All for one and one for all. This is Travel with Rick Steves. We're talking with Lise Doucette. She's the BBC's multi-award winning chief international correspondent. Her newest book is The Finest Hotel in Kabul. which tells a sweeping and traumatic history of Afghanistan through the lens of the Intercontinental Hotel in the capital city and the real lives of its staff and guests. We have more about her work with this week's show at ricksteves.com slash radio. So, Lise, you were just making this case of the importance of the quality of this and how it is worth taking risks for, and I read about the places that you've worked in, Islamabad, Amman, Iran, the Arab Spring, all across North Africa, major wars in the Middle East since the mid-1990s, natural disasters, you know, Gaza. Of all of this work that you've done, can you name a couple of pieces that you've brought home that you thought were particularly impactful that you were proud of and thankful that you could take those risks and bring it home and make our world a more informed place? I used to spend a lot of time in Syria after the series of events which became known at the time, it turned out to be a misnomer, the Arab Spring. And when Syria's peaceful uprising turned into the most brutal war in the region, one of the issues I tried to focus on was the use by President Assad's forces of a medieval tactic known as surrender or starve. laying siege to a whole neighbourhood, sometimes a whole chunk of a city where not a piece of bread would go in, not a child would get out, literally exerting inhumane pressure on a people. And I wanted to be able to get inside to one of those places so I could convey to our audiences just what it meant to be living in a besieged area. I mean, how do we convey that to people who've never had to live through such horror. And through a lot of contacts and pressure and going back and forth, I finally did get access to the besieged area of Yarmouk on the outskirts of Damascus. And it was overwhelming. I had visited many scenes of many really, really pitched battles across Syria, but I'd never been in a place where there was so much destruction, so much devastation, and so much desperation. People were begging, begging to get out. And that was a story where we put it out on the BBC. It won an award at the Bayou War Correspondence Award. And people thought, wow, because we were able to convey the enormity and the intensity of the moment. You know, Lise, this is, I can just imagine you in this kind of a situation as a journalist, sort of inspired to get the story out. and these hellish situations reminiscent of the ghetto in Warsaw in World War II or Gaza today almost, you know. I remember way back in the Sandinista and Contra days, there were horrible examples of courageous news gathering going out by stringers in the trenches down there during these horrible, difficult, complicated times. And they'd write these groundbreaking essays and stories and it would be just golden material and would get right up to the very top of the chain and then some editor on the top, they would crush it. They would say, no, we're not going to say that. Is that still an issue when you are, because you're in the trenches as a foreign correspondent, are you ever haunted by the fact that some editor's editor will say, I'm sorry, it's just we don't have room for this? Crushing is the word. I think in the days in which if an editor is going to send their correspondence in the trenches of Ukraine, it is very, very dangerous. And it is very costly to get them there, that you won't be sent unless there is a very good chance that it's going to get on air. But what is the state of foreign correspondence right now in the economic equation when networks have to make money? That's all what it's about is making money. And it just seems to me like when you inject the necessity to make money into the importance of reporting on the news. I mean, our founding fathers called it, what, the fourth estate. I mean, it was really important to have good quality journalism. And now economic decisions are resulting, I think, in the thinning out of the correspondent core and more people just reading off the wire. Yeah, the fourth estate and a fundamental pillar of our democracy. Every blow to independent journalism is a blow to democracy and the values and principles of society that I think all of us hold dear. But yes, it does come down to dollars and cents. And it is expensive placing foreign correspondents. You have to take care of them. And more and more, because of the proliferation of wars, there's insurance issues as well. I should emphasize that there has been a real diversification of our sources of news. And this is hugely important as well. Because often now when we say foreign correspondents, sometimes the eyes and ears are people who grew up in these countries, who know the lie of the land better than a foreign correspondent will do, who speaks the language, knows how things work and when they don't work, why they don't. If I go to Syria I work with a Syrian If I go to Afghanistan I work with an Afghan And so that also a way that news organizations are able to strengthen their coverage of stories which when it just came down to finances, they may not be able to cover at all. And, you know, they call us now, Rick, and you know this, we're the MSM, the mainstream media, the legacy media. And that's not, for some people, that's not a compliment. We talk about the truth now in the search for truth in journalism these days. And for those who consume news, it's also about trust. Can you trust the person who is reporting? Can you trust the videos you're seeing on the screen? And this has become an ever more urgent imperative with the rise and the growing sophistication of artificial intelligence, where the line between fact and fakery is becoming ever more blurred. We're looking at the realities of reporting the news today with Lise Doucette right now on Travel with Rick Steves. Lisa's witnessed and reported on many of the world's biggest news stories for more than 40 years. As the chief international correspondent for BBC World News, she's interviewed world leaders from the conflict zones of the Middle East and Southwest Asia with posts in such places as Islamabad, Tehran, and Kabul. Her book, The Finest Hotel in Kabul, profiles the people who kept the intercontinental hotel operating through Afghanistan's wars and regime changes. Lisa earned a lifetime achievement Award from Columbia University's School of Journalism for her courage in public service, as well as Emmy and Peabody Awards for her team's reporting from Syria. I'm curious, as a woman, how does that impact your work? Do you get more access, less access? Do you encounter situations that just put up a roadblock for you because you're in a society that treats women so differently? What is the impact of being a woman on your work? I remember in the 80s when this was an issue that people talked about a lot of 80s. We used to say that being a woman, in my case, a white woman from a Western society, in going to very traditional societies where access to women, access to anything was controlled by men, that we would be considered the third, another gender, where we weren't treated like the women of that society, but we also weren't treated like the men. And in Afghanistan, for example, it meant that in Islam, there is an idea that women should be protected. Of course, the Taliban take that to the nth degree, saying to women, you don't have to leave the home at all. We'll do everything for you. There, it meant that I got the front seat on the bus, the front seat in the military helicopter, although there were at times that I wish I didn't have the front seat in the military helicopter. But it also meant that for some of the stories and, you know, Do you remember back in the First and the Second World War when pioneering women like Martha Gellhorn and Lee Miller, it was illegal for them to go to the front line. They were told, oh, you could do the stories about the hospitals. You can do the stories about the women and children, that the men wouldn't do those kind of stories. But fast forward to the wars of our time. Yes, they're still fought in the trenches in places like Ukraine. But most wars of our time, the front lines, women and children are not close to the front line. They are the front line. The front lines go through streets, through neighborhoods, through houses. And so those stories of people's lives are the main stories. And sometimes when women don't want to talk about deeply intimate details of terrible things which happen to them, it is possible that women do get more access because women feel more comfortably. The male members of the family feel more comfortable. But I'm often asked whether women cover war differently from men. And I don't have a gendered lens. that I know as many women who are interested in ballistics, bombs and bullets, as I know men who are interested in what happens to people on those front lines. You know, it's interesting your observation is about women in the field. It's the same as mine as a tour guide and a travel writer. I mean, when I travel in distant corners of the world, it seems to me that there's three genders. There's men, there's local women, and there are tourist women. And the tourist women are treated in a different standard than the local women without any apologies. It's just, it seems very odd to me that they would have those double standards. In other words, you can get access as a woman just as well as anybody else. But I have time to tell you a little story. Sure. In Afghanistan, where we always used to say hospitality over ideology, where pragmatism rules. In 1991, when I was the BBC Pakistan correspondent and the Western-backed Mujahideen scored a major military victory, they called up the BBC office. They said, we'd like the BBC to come. And I said, we're going to come. And so the guy at the other end of the landline said, who's going to come? And I said, me, I'm the correspondent. And there was a pause at the end of the line. He goes, oh, we want the BBC, but not women. And then I paused and I said, okay, I'll come like a woman, but I'll dress like a man. He goes, okay, that's fine. So I went as a woman, dressed like a man. And then when we had the press conference on the border with the big commander with the long, long beard, there I was in the best seat right next to the commander because, of course, I was a woman and needed to be protected. But I was dressed like a man, dressed like all the other fighters around because that was the condition on which I was allowed to go. So hospitality over ideology. You can find a way around it. There's more with Lise Doucette in a minute as she helps us look at what it takes to be a savvy listener and viewer of the news. We'll also ask Lise for her perspective as a Canadian on living in a multicultural society and on the political tensions that have changed Canada's relationship with their longtime best friend and neighbor, the United States. We'll finish today's Travel with Rick Steves with a little treat to warm you up just in time for Valentine's Day from my Art of Europe TV series. Bearing witness to the world's biggest news events has been Lise Doucette's job now for more than 40 years. She's our guest right now on Travel with Rick Steves as we look at the work of being a foreign correspondent reporting on the news from around the world. Now, I'm thinking the world is so complicated and the world is so small and there's so many agendas trying to horn in on the media coverage. I'd love your take, your advice on consuming news as a savvy citizen, whether Canadian or American. How would you advise Americans to be mindful that news can change our perception in a way that is really not based on trying to make you understand it, but make you misunderstand it? What's your advice on consuming news smartly these days? This is a really difficult time in terms of people trying to understand each other. I don't need to tell you, Rick, I don't need to tell your listeners. So much of our world now is people talking past each other, people shouting at each other, even threatening each other. The social media platforms, which when they started many years ago, were seen as a force for good, as platforms which would bring us together, are now pulling us apart. And it takes a real effort for us to step outside our silos and to listen. Really listen. Because often we hear what we want to hear. We don't really want to listen. And it is really hard because sometimes there's a tone. We have our own assumptions and we carry our own sense of what is right and wrong. But for the survival of our society, we have to learn to listen to each other, to respect each other. And there has to be a common space. I work for the British Broadcasting Corporation and the BBC, whatever you say about the BBC, and the BBC gets lots of criticism, is that its mandate is to listen to all sides. We put voices right across the political spectrum. I call it the water cooler space in the sense of that everyone who listens to the BBC or watches the BBC, reads it, will be consuming the same information from different points of view. So that when you meet each other, you have a common ground to talk about what's happening. When I go to the United States and not just the United States, if you're sitting in the morning, I'm having my cup of tea, I look up on the split screens and there'll be one TV station covering an event with a strapline under it. And on the other side of the screen is another TV station covering the exact same event with a different strapped line. And there's nothing which connects them. You think they were reporting on different events. You know, BBC is, to me, the iconic public broadcasting system. And there is some rationale that a government thinks it's worth to have one little, what I consider, oasis on the dial that's not commercial. And it costs money. It costs taxpayers money. In the United States, our administration has just targeted PBS and NPR and zeroed out their funding so that we can have less public broadcasting and more commercial broadcasting. Commercial media is driven by making money, and that means it has to decide what's going to be pop, what's going to be viewed, what's going to get the most revenue, whereas public media can bring you the news without being so entertaining focused, I think. And I'm just wondering if you have a take on that as a foreign correspondent. I mean, I lament the days when networks, as part of their corporate citizenship, would give you the news hour without needing to make money on it. Back in Walter Cronkite's day, they willingly lost money during the news hour because it wasn't entertainment. If it bleeds, it leads is a symptom of commercial media that needs to get more eyeballs to charge more for the ads. And if it bleeds, it leads. It's not a very good priority for choosing what news we should know. Yes, those are days gone by, isn't it? We all sat around the television in the evening, appointment to view. We watched the Ed Sullivan show. But I have to say that in that Dickensian way, we live in the best of times and the worst of times. Independent journalism is facing, I think it has to be called an existential crisis for all of the reasons you say. But it's also a very exciting time. I marvel when I see sometimes it's just individuals who set up their own podcast and they do investigations that the big, mighty broadcasters don't do. So sometimes small is beautiful as well. And I think what we have to decide as a society, what is it that the society needs to protect the values and the principles and the institutions and the norms that we hold dear? In Britain, there still is a sense, even though it's being challenged, that you do need a national public broadcaster in order to be that fundamental pillar of society. There is a huge public debate now in Britain about the license fee because when it started, it was connected to your television. If you had a television, you had to pay the license fee. Well, a lot of people, especially in the young generation, don't have televisions anymore. They don't watch television. And the license fee may have to change. And BBC is now in discussions with the government about different kinds of models and other societies in the United States, Canada, the CBC and Australia, the ABC. They're under huge financial pressures and political and editorial pressures as well. This is one of the many struggles of our time, Rick. And I have to say that Maria Ressa, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for her efforts, the work that she did in the Philippines highlighting the dangers to society, to democracy by the authoritarian rule, was, I felt, shining a light. It was the canary in the coal mine of telling all of us, wake up, because any threats to journalism are threats to the societies and the values we hold dear to democracy. Lise Doucette reports for BBC World News on TV and the World Service on radio as their chief international correspondent. She holds high honors from the British and Canadian governments for her work, and she also posts frequently to her page on Instagram. You know, Lise, I just can't let you go because you're Canadian, and I've got Canadian roots, and I'm through and through American after two generations, but it's a very emotional issue for me, the relationship between my country and your country. And I know it's not always been a cakewalk. I mean what decades ago your Canadian former prime minister Pierre Trudeau described Canada relationship with the USA as like sleeping with an elephant What your take on Canada relationship to the United States historically and these days Rick, we never wanted to break up. You know, the marriage had some problems, but, you know, we could have worked them out. We could have found ways to resolve all those issues. But when President Trump started imposing, swinging tariffs, which are having an increasingly painful impact on the Canadian economy, when he started not just threatening to take over Canada, but telling us Canadians that actually we'd be better off being American, better off being the 51st state, first we laughed and then we got angry. And then we rallied around the flag. And in being forced to think about our identity, we have become even more Canadian than ever before. Well, you know, when we think about this, a lot of Americans just think, oh, we could pay off Canada and then they could be part of our economy and they'd be better off because look at the dollars. But I think there are some fundamental differences where you can't just say, sure, we'll be the 51st state. Canadians are not Americans. And it's a beautiful thing that we can celebrate. When you look at it from your upbringing in Canada, how do you understand Canada's social contract, your relationship with institutions and community and so on, compared to how you understand people in the United States? Yeah, there are different historical traditions, different stories about ourselves. Of course, I should say, of course, it is hard to generalize. generalized. There will always be the exceptions to the rule, but you put your finger on an important part of the Canadian fabric healthcare, for example. Even though there are challenges to Medicare now, Canadians are very proud about having this kind of a medical system. They are proud of these kinds of institutions that knit communities together. And every school child, when you go to university, you often learn, at least we used to when I went to university, about that Canada is a mosaic and America is a melting pot, that when you go to America, you want to become American. And that's why people go to the United States of America. But when you come to Canada, you can keep your identity. You can keep your sense of self, but you can also be Canadian. And so Canada, in a way, is a lot of communities bound together in a great country. And I remember watching when the Olympics were in, the Winter Olympics were in Calgary and seeing the rodeo and this Calgary Stampede and all that. And I'm thinking, well, that's not my Canada, but we're all Canadian. And actually, now that I'm mentioning the Calgary Stampede, I have to tell you, Rick, one of my rude awakenings was when I first moved to Britain. And the Winter Olympics were in Calgary, and there were British journalists over there. And one of the journalists in one of the papers said, oh, you know, the Calgary Olympics is really well organized. But if there was an Olympics for being boring, Canada would win it. Oh, no. Oh, yeah. So there is, we do have a kind of, you know, Canadians are nice. We say sorry. We're not that exciting. You know, there is that also, that image of Canadians. But I think we've become a lot more exciting since President Trump started knocking very loudly on our door. When it was sort of a joke at first, I think, but when Canada realized, no, this is dangerous, Trump is probably serious about this 51st state business, All of a sudden, I think our administration saw a little more spine than they might have expected to see. It's been an extraordinary moment for Canada. And it does affirm my belief that good things can come out of bad. I mentioned before the rallying around the flag. The last time I was in Canada was this summer. I noticed that in all of the shops, there's a sticker which says, Made in Canada. There's also now big discussions between the premiers of the provinces about trying to remove the trade barriers that, you know, one after another, Canadian governments didn't deal with because, of course, they were trading with the United States. Oh, wait a minute. So I didn't realize that the provinces, what do you have, 13 provinces or something like that? Ten and then two territories, yeah. Yeah, and there was little trade hurdles like tariffs or something. Yes, alcohol and, yeah, those sorts of things. Now, in response to America's tariffs, you guys have gone duty-free, essentially. Well, no, it's going to be difficult because they're there for a reason. But Canadians are looking for new markets, markets internally. Mark Carney made his, when he was acting prime minister, he made his first trip, not to the United States, but to Britain and to France, former colonial powers, because he wants Canada to look in a different direction. And the biggest evidence of all was that Mark Carney, the Liberal Party, was behind in the polls by double digits. And then when President Trump returned to the White House, suddenly Mark Carney, a completely new politician, former banker, central banker, surged ahead in the polls and came to power. Just a little bit short of a majority. but that would not have happened. If President Trump had not returned to power with his threats of annexing the country and imposing those tariffs, there'd be a Conservative government in Canada right now. So tell us about elbows up, because that's our takeaway from all of a sudden 51st state. Hell no. Elbows up. What's going on? It's a hockey phrase which shows that you're ready to fight. So elbows up has become a rallying cry in Canada. But of course, elbows up is not going to fix the trade figures, create the jobs. But again, it's a sense of how Canadians feel differently about themselves. And it's really extraordinary to me, Rick, that even months on, you would have thought that it would start tapering off. People get back to it. But even so now, Canadians, I was just talking to the person who used to be the main television anchor in Canada. And he was just saying that it's still, people still feel it. Yeah. And even though snowbirds from Canada are probably bailing out of their dreams to go to Florida over the winter, Americans are still, I find, welcomed in Canada when we go up to Banff and Jasper or do a road trip into Canada. I think we should remind people that it is valuable for people-to-people connection. And if Canadians are boycotting our country because of economic self-defense, we're still welcome to go up there on vacation if we like and we'll be warmly received. It's not personal. It's not personal. It's political. Well, I'm thankful for that because I've got relatives all over Canada, and when I talk to them on the phone, honestly, it's hard not to cry. It's really a heartbreaking thing to see what's happened to the relations between our two nations' governments. It jolted Canadians. It came out of the blue, like a sideswipe in a hockey game. We just didn't see it coming. And it hurt. It hurt. And, you know, Rick, the saddest thing is that the feeling in Canada is that this isn't temporary, that it's permanent. I think we do have to find a way to live together. I mean, we have to share the same land. But going forward, Canadians can no longer take for granted an economic financial relationship with the United States. I hope we can learn from each other and come out of this. But I imagine you are right. Lise Doucette, thank you so much. Best wishes with your work as a journalist, bringing a better understanding of the most complicated parts of our world home. And thanks for writing your book, The Finest Hotel in Kabul. And Rick, may I say that when I first got this lovely invitation to be on your podcast, my first thought was, oh, Rick is a fellow traveler. It wasn't that you were an American. I didn't hesitate for a minute. So there you go, people to people, one by one. It's been a delight to spend some time with you, Lise, and I'm sure we'll cross paths again in the future. Thank you, Rick. There's more each week at ricksteves.com slash radio. Let's take a moment with my friend and co-author, Gene Openshaw, to look at a little romance in the art masterpieces of Europe. Gene co-authored our recent Art of Europe series for public television, and he's also the author of the book Michelangelo at Midlife. Hey, Gene, for as big a part in our lives as romantic love plays, I'm always amazed that it's not really that big a deal when we look at history's greatest art. You don't see a lot of romantic love. Boy, that's true. You know, there's plenty of nudity, but there isn't a lot of sex. The statues are noble, and there's plenty of noble sentiment, but there's not a lot of PDA. But there must be a few notable exceptions. Let's think about that. a few masterpieces that definitely stir the romantic soul. And in fact, I can think of one right now. You know that statue of Cupid? It's in the Louvre, done by Antonio Canova. That's kind of my last stop when I tour the Louvre. It's sort of on the way out, and I just always love that. It's a great amuse-bouche. It's all white. It's very striking. You know, I can picture it right now. It's a 3-D reality all carved in marble. And there it is. There's Cupid. Cupid's coming down. He reaches down to embrace a nymph. Now she's reaching back up toward him. Their arms start to form a circle. It's like a perfect circle of love. And in the very center of the circle... Actually, the center of the composition itself. Yeah, the true center of the work is the point where their faces start to come together. In fact, it's that space, it's the electrically charged space that's in between them as their waiting lips come together in a kiss. You know, I love that statue, and it makes me think of another work that, remember this one, the famous painting in Vienna that's actually called The Kiss? Ah, by Gustav Klimt, who worked in Vienna in the late 1800s. Yeah, this painting is hanging in the Belvedere Palace. Right. The kiss shows two lovers. They're in a field of flowers. They're coming together also in an embrace. And that embrace is sort of woven together as their dazzling gold robes. Yeah, their robes kind of merge into one, yeah. And then we see the man, he's leaning in. The woman closes her eyes. We see her cheeks start to flush. Oh boy, it's getting hot in here. And now the woman, I can see her. She's turning her face out, and she smiles. She smiles as she succumbs to the pleasure of the kiss. The kiss. You know, finally, when it comes to love, you just can't overlook the, I gotta say, magical world of Marc Chagall. Marc Chagall painted scenes of happy couples. For me, they're iconic. A man and a woman embraced and floating across the sky, hovering over the rooftop. And he achieved it with, he used those whimsical techniques of cubism and rich, fauvist colors so he could capture the deep, eternal mystery of love. And we see that his couple seemed to, they defy the gravity of the real world. They tumble like in a dream over the everyday world. Floating weightlessly in that lighter-than-air bliss of love. Gene, I just love talking about European art and where it can take us, and today we've talked a little bit about the PDA added by Canova, Klimt, and Chagall. Thanks a lot, Gene. Always a pleasure, Rick. Travel with Rick Steves is produced at Rick Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington, by Tim Tatton, Kazmur Hall, and Donna Bardsley. Andrew Wakeling and Sherry Court upload the shows to our website. Sheila Gerzoff handles affiliate promotions, our theme music is by Jerry Frank. You can find links to our guests and search the show archives at ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll see you next week with more Travel with Rick Steves. Rick Steves Classroom Europe is a fast, free, and fun video archive. It's designed for teachers, travelers, and students. It gives you immediate access to some 500 short video clips from the Rick Steves Europe TV show library. Clips cover European history, art, culture, food, and geography. Google Classroom Europe or visit ricksteves.com to watch clips and create your own playlist. Teachers love it. Students do, too.