We had a New Jersey band, Rock and Scroll, that was a rock band that had no social media presence and we had a placement on Virgin River and their numbers went sky-high. This happens all the time. Hi, welcome back to How Much Can I Make, the podcast about careers and jobs. I'm your host, Meravo Zeri. Before we start, I'd like to mention that next week's show is about the business of franchising. If you want to know how franchising works, tune in, you don't want to miss it. But this week we dive into another hidden side of business most people never think about. SYNC licensing in the music industry. HowSong ends up in Netflix shows, commercials, video games and major ad campaigns. Music SYNC expert, Elise Schiller, takes us behind the scene of one of the most competitive and fascinating corner of the music industry. So, let's turn to my conversation with Elise. First of all, Elise, thank you so much for joining the show. I'm so happy to have you here. I was really curious about the SYNC business. I'm happy to be here and that's what I do. That's a big part of what I do is SYNC. Before we get into the SYNC, you've been in the music industry for a while, doing different things, correct? Yeah, since I was a little girl, Lily, I was performing in San Francisco in shows and things like that. And then I got a record deal and moved to Los Angeles in the 80s. And I had a recording deal with Columbia Records and I had two Billboard songs out on the charts. Wow! So, how did you get into SYNC? First of all, if you can explain to us what SYNC is. Sure. SYNC means synchronization of music to picture whatever form the media is, whether it's film, television, gaming, what have you. And it's the licensing process where a song is placed in any kind of a project. There are two sides of a SYNC. For a song, there's the master recording side, right? It's the actual recording. Oftentimes in situations where there's a label, the label on the master recording. And then there's the composition publishing side, which is the actual writing of the song. When you make a placement on a show, say a TV show and it's 10K, it's 5K for the master and 5K for the publishing side. How did you get into it? Years after I was a recording artist, I was a composer-producer for main title themes and promo campaigns for years. I had a studio on the west side in LA and my partner and I at the time, Jim, we pretty much did all the main titles and promo campaigns for a lot of the entertainment companies like e-entertainment television. And internationally, we did for many networks. And we got really into doing that. Probably we did that. I did that for about 12 years. And then when I started my family, some of the budgets were coming down a bit in custom music. And I was starting to look around and see, ah, maybe I should learn more about this whole library business. It just started around 2008, 2009. It was becoming more of a thing that the companies would go to libraries. So I decided to go to work outside of my own company and work for this company, Angry Mob Music at the time. I really had to separate myself from being an artist and producer at that time. And it was a really big deal to go, oh, now I'm going to be on the business side in a full way. And I ended up working there for about three and a half years doing all film, television and advertising for them and making all their placements for their emerging talent, which was amazing at the time. Because also a friend of mine was doing the A&R and she was just awesome and brought in the cream of the crop emerging artists. And it became like, oh my God, how creative it is to actually help these artists make their music a little more emotionally charged or picture. And then if they've already, some of them already had existing music that was amazing and being able to hear it and put it in with the right shows in every corner. And make these placements for them and give them this incredible new form of revenue at the time. So how does it work? Producers come to you with a request for certain kind of mood, certain kind of music and then you go and search? So first you spend years nurturing your relationships with music supervisors, music producers, producers, directors, showrunners, all the people that create and develop content, whether it be brands or film, television, gaming, whatever, trailers. And then having those relationships and being a really a trusted resource where you understand you have everything in place, like all your clearance on every song. You know how to streamline that process. And you're right there giving them things that probably within the wheelhouse of what they're asking for. Yes. So they come to you. And then really we'll get several searches, whether it be from ad music supervisors or film and television or gaming, promo studios, whatever it is, films. So we have agreements with probably about 75 to 100 artists that we have signed to our roster. Those artists have to go with you when it comes to thinking. Yes. Basically we have exclusive arrangements with specific songs with artists and sometimes we'll do non exclusive, particularly if it's a more known artist and there's a lot of different players, like a label and a different publisher and all these kind of things. Then we'll make specific deals, but we have to know that when we pitch a song to a supervisor to anyone, we know that there's not going to be a problem. No one's going to stop the process once the process starts. Did it happen that you were asked for certain kind of music? You had the artist in mind and you went to the artist and the artist said, I'm not interested? In our world, in the sync world, you just never, you just know you can't do that because nobody would work with you. If a music supervisor who can go to 20 million people and you all of a sudden say, oh, I have to pull that song because the artists didn't know or whatever, they're never going to work with you ever again. So we all know as sync agents and as sync representatives that we must have everything cleared and pre-cleared before we actually pitch it. Oh, okay. So if you go to, if you get a request and you go to the music supervisor, do you usually give them like a 10 songs, 7 songs? Yeah, it depends. Sometimes they state how many songs they want. Just on every day, we won't give more than 10 songs, sometimes 5 or 6 depending on the request and how specific it is. But some people I've had asked for unlimited. We need, because they're going to pull it into their kind of library of music that they go to when they're working on a show or a film, and they'll just be able to go through it. So they don't, they want as many songs. It's that, that's not everybody. Usually it's anywhere from 5 to 10 songs. So you mentioned gaming, which I found interesting. Is this like a new area in the sync business that you get requests for music? No, it's just been more and more. It's always been there, video games and, and also trailers for video games. But for us lately, we've had more requests. We weren't working in that area as much. We're more film, television and advertising. But now we've been getting, I think we, we just got told we have a couple of songs and a new game that, but I have to confirm that this week. But yeah, it's great. It's like every day is a different day with different media that you're working on. So what pays the best? Is it advertisement, gaming? Is it film? Is it TV? Streaming? What's the best for an artist to get into? For emerging artists, which is of course different than really recognizable known artists. But for emerging artists, it can be, I would say in the ad space is the best space. It's always been, but right now it definitely is. And it can be anywhere from a digital ad that's down and dirty and a short form or something. It could be much lower for short form, maybe anywhere from even 500 to 10K. But for regular, everyday ads, it's anywhere from 20K to 350K. Wow. Do they get royalties? Do? No, no, it's a one time deal. You give the rights for one time deal. And if a producer produces now everything is a series, 13 segments, 12. So they license it. I want to talk about the difference between licensing and thinking, but they think it for the entire season or is it episode at a time? It depends on how much music they're liking that you're pitching. Most of the time it'll be, it could be several songs within several episodes of the season, or it could be one in one episode. It just depends on what they're resonating with from what you're pitching. What is the difference between licensing and thinking? So what I wanted to say about that is the actual word is synchronization, right? And it just means pairing music to picture. So the sync process is licensed. Okay, I got it now. What makes a good piece of music syncable? I think it's got to have a really solid feeling that it evokes, that it's accessible enough lyrically, if it has lyrics, that it can work in many different situations. So you mentioned before 350K that Wenger a huge bail for me. Is that for a known artist? Known song? No, it could be if those kind of, that kind of money, they would rather probably have a known artist, but if a song really resonates and works, and it's an emerging artist, they may try to get you down a little, even though they told you the budget was, say, 350K, But not really, because the budget's the budget. And if a song works, and it's really resonating, and it really fits the demographic they're looking for to work with and to represent, it's just what their budget is. And it's great for the artist, because I know, see, I had a song on 6 feet under. And I think most people didn't know about her before. Yeah, that's another thing about SYNC is that it actually, especially for artists that are trying to get more visibility, or emerging artists, or even artists doing a comeback. For instance, there was a show You're Honor on HB. And they didn't have a lot of places for SYNC, but we had pitched, and it was one of our artists that actually was an authentic kind of vintage soul artist from the late 60s. And we pitched his one of his songs, and it went in, and it definitely has helped his career, because immediately everybody wants to be able to get the song once they hear the song on a show, and if they like it. And this same thing happened, we had a New Jersey band, Rock and Scroll, that was a rock band that had no social media presence. And we had a placement on Virgin River, and their numbers went sky high. And this happens all the time when we do a SYNC with any artist, really. So you mentioned pitching before. Give me a little bit behind the scene. How does the pitching work? What do you do? Yeah, I think pitching in years ago, before COVID, was a lot different than it is now. And we still do have face-to-face meetings, and lunches, and drinks, and all those things. But not nearly as much. People have gotten really used to working from either their home office or their office, and not having to deal with all the traffic and all that stuff, and doing zooms and doing, and just also just asking for music via emails, and having a specific place where the music goes in these links, and then you just basically explaining what you're sending and why in relation to what they're asking for. Are you constantly searching for new artists? Your ears are always open? Yeah, I think our ears are open, but we get so much music sent to us that it's hard really to sometimes deal with, but we try to listen to as much of the music as possible. When we think about songs, we're thinking about the depth of the emotion. We're thinking about, it depends on the media that we're thinking about. For television and film, we want it to have depth, and it could be about a breakup, or it could have a lot of different kinds of lyrics, but in the ad space and in brands, we want a more accessible lyric, more of a human journey or survival, or these different themes that are more accessible. So is it truly just about the music, or is it a lot of personal connection, and all, I'll do a favor for this artist because it's... No, not any, it's no favor anymore. That maybe was like a long time ago, but now it's business. Which is the music fit this project, this episode, this spot, this brand, this, what they're trying to do. It's so many things it has to hit in any given one spot. You mentioned before that it's 50-50, the record label and the publishing. What is your cut? How much do you get for all of that? We have a pretty standard deal of, we take 50% of whatever, if it's 10K, then... You get 5. Yeah, that's like a gallery for artists. I just interviewed an artist, the gallery takes 50%. I guess it's a standard in all the businesses. Yeah, it is when you're doing all the work for high value time that you're actually not getting paid for while you're doing it. I have a very important question. We are at the age of AI. I just saw that three number one songs were by an AI artist. There were fantastic songs, I have to say, I heard them. The artist was a black guy that was very attractive too. Right. And there were number one, what happens if a music supervisor decides to take an AI song? And it's like, screw it, I don't have to pay anybody, nobody gets paid, right? I should tell you that in my world, we don't pitch AI songs. Yeah, I'm sure you don't, but I'm sure... No, and they don't want AI songs. For instance, still in today, I am not speaking for tomorrow, but today, the ad companies we work with, they don't want AI songs. So we are not allowed to pitch songs that even have an AI vocal. Why don't they want? It would save them a lot of money, do you know? Because it's just not authentic enough. And right now we're in a world where it's got a backlash of the AI. And thankfully, right now, today, there is a backlash. And it's, of course, we love that in terms of having authentic artists and that we always want really unique and authentic artists. And that's who we sign. So that's who we represent. And that's what they want right now. That's what all these different buyers in the music world want, authentic music. We hope it stays this way. I don't trust Hollywood. Right? No, I think they will write scripts and say somebody else wrote it, put it in the name, and yeah, they'll still... Oh, it's happening. The way that I see AI right now is it's really good tools for organization, for... Sometimes in the studio, I know there are producers that it helps on the production side to speed certain things along, but not take away from authenticity. By the way, does it happen that they want a song but they have to re-record it for their specification and their arrangements and all of that? Yes, yeah. So my business partner is... She heads up the custom side and I head up the sync side in our company. Okay. And we get hired often to do specific songs, sometimes albums for larger publishers. That's also another revenue stream that we do as a company because we are kind of known for doing a lot of pop music and all subgenres of pop and hip hop pop. And so we get hired a lot to do albums. So we have recording studios, different producers, we work with different artists we bring in and we produce songs for these different clients. But we also do it specifically for certain projects. We just recently did a string quartet arrangement and we're doing some other ones. I can't really talk about it, but I can say that we're still finding out what's going on with that project, but it was just so fun because I was working with a great producer and we ended up co-producing together an amazing version of a George Michael song. Oh, well, what an artist should do in order for him or her to be more syncable, I'd say. What would be the right thing for a new artist to do? I would say if they want to get into the sync world, they should be making sure that they're watching a lot of content and aware of what music is being used where. It's really a whole process. If you're going to be in sync, it's not slap your songs into shows. It's like researching. As an artist, before you even get to a sync agency or having anyone help you, you really have to know more about what music is being used and what forms of media. And then they need to have maybe five or six songs to start with that are their best work that evoke emotion. Mostly it has to just be of highest quality and sound like a record. Do you ever get requests for classical music? No, we don't often get asked for to create classical music, but we have some classical composers that we represent who are more modern and especially in the ad space. We will often pitch for more instrumental classical or neoclassical kind of music. Interesting. How long is the process? Let's say I'm a music supervisor. I come to you. I need this in this music and this mood. How long does it take you? It depends on their they have a deadline. If some ads all of a sudden they need something, they'll need it for the next morning. So you just do it. You just do it. And sometimes it'll be a week and sometimes a custom project will be two days and it has to sound amazing. So you did it happen that you get a request and you didn't have the right music for it? Yeah, there are times we like to hope to think that we try to make sure that we have what everybody wants. But sometimes that happens. And then we also have sync partners, friends that I have that have seen companies and we help each other out occasionally. If I don't have something and somebody didn't get that search, then we help each other out. You said that it's highly competitive now. You already established yourself, which is great for you. But if a new person comes and decides he's going to go or she's going to go into the sync business, what do they need to do? They have to make relationships. They have to nurture networking, networking, but in a real patient. You don't push a relationship in one time. It's an evolved over time experience. I can understand that. And that's really important for young emerging artists to understand, know the person you're talking to and what they generally like, what shows they work on or what projects they work on, and understand them and be a finesse and be more strategic and helpful. What's the biggest challenge that you have in your business? The biggest challenge, I think, is that it is so competitive. I can imagine. And so there is a million people pitching for the same thing all the time. One good thing is that we as a company, we are more record quality sounding. We're not trying to be a library where we're quantity, we're more quality and specific unique artists. So we're a little bit more of a boutique. And what is the biggest reward? Do you watch every single show to see if your music is in there? It's just really rewarding to make a great placement in a great piece of content. It's great for the artist. It's great for you feel like, oh, wow, we were right on about sending those songs or that song. You're supporting this great piece of content and maybe you're helping the characters. You're bringing the emotion out in a different way with the music. It's very satisfying. Do you work with international artists? We work with a lot of international artists. We have artists in Copenhagen. We have artists in everywhere, all over the world. We made a deal for Google Android, I guess about a year and a half ago, with a French DJ, D-Mad, and an artist named Remi. And it was for a Google Android ad called Circle to Search on a song called Make You Look. And it was just an amazing, it just all fit together. And it was actually a song I pitched a year before for something else and they had gone back to it. And it worked for this Google Android ad and very amazing for everyone. So my last question, do you love your job? Oh, God. Yes, so much. It's so exciting. I love working with really talented people, helping them make things work. It's amazing. Yeah, it sounds like a great business. It's as amazing as creating music, creating the placement, creating or helping direct the production. Because a lot of times I'm brought in to sculpt the sonics or change the arrangement and kind of help produce a more sinkable product. And it's great when that all works and comes together. It's like a puzzle. Yeah, exactly like a puzzle. Fantastic. Elise, thank you so much for sharing all this info. You know, I started to hear the term sink about when I started to interview my musician friends. I never heard about that before. When I was in the business, nobody used that term. They used licensing. That's what they use. But that was a real lesson. And then part of the music industry I knew nothing about. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. It's so interesting. Alright, I'll talk to you soon. Yes, take care. Bye-bye. This is it for today. And if you enjoyed this episode and want to explore more creative careers from musician and sculptor to Broadway wig makers, photographers, TV producer and many more head over to How Much Can I Make That Info. You'll find interviews, salaries breakdown and real stories from people making a living doing creative work. Thanks for listening. Please like and share. And I will see you next week on How Much Can I Make.
