Fatal Hubris (PODCAST EXCLUSIVE EPISODE)
31 min
•Apr 15, 2026about 2 months agoSummary
Episode features two cautionary tales about individuals whose pursuit of attention and status led to fatal consequences: Derek Keeper, a college columnist who opposed seatbelt laws, died in a car crash without wearing one; and Francesco Schettino, captain of the Costa Concordia cruise ship, caused a disaster that killed 32 people while attempting to impress his girlfriend with an unauthorized maneuver.
Insights
- Ideological consistency without pragmatic safety considerations can have lethal consequences, even when principles are sincerely held
- Authority figures who prioritize personal image and impression-management over operational safety create systemic risks affecting many people
- Distraction, impaired judgment, and lack of proper oversight compound in high-stakes environments to create cascading failures
- The gap between personal belief systems and real-world outcomes can be tragically wide when stakes involve life-and-death decisions
Trends
Narrative-driven podcast format as dominant medium for exploring cautionary tales and human behavior analysisGrowing audience interest in true crime and behavioral psychology stories examining decision-making failuresEmphasis on ironic outcomes where personal philosophies directly cause the harm they were meant to preventMulti-sponsor podcast model with diverse advertiser categories (insurance, recruitment, pet nutrition, finance apps)
Topics
Seatbelt safety and personal freedom debateIndividual liberty vs. government regulationLeadership failures and accountabilityMaritime safety and cruise ship operationsDecision-making under distractionConsequences of ideological rigidityEvacuation procedures and crowd panic managementRisk assessment in high-stakes environmentsPersonal accountability for systemic failuresHubris and status-seeking behavior
Companies
Costa Concordia
Cruise ship involved in disaster caused by captain Francesco Schettino's reckless maneuver to impress girlfriend
University of Nebraska Lincoln
Institution where Derek Keeper was student columnist and pursued five majors before fatal car accident
Daily Nebraska
University newspaper where Derek Keeper published controversial column opposing seatbelt laws
People
Derek Keeper
20-year-old who died in car crash after writing column opposing mandatory seatbelt laws, ironically not wearing one
Francesco Schettino
Captain who caused cruise ship disaster killing 32 people while attempting to impress girlfriend with unauthorized ma...
Brian Aho
American passenger who survived Costa Concordia disaster by climbing down four levels with wife and daughter
Mr. Ballin
Host and creator of Strange, Dark & Mysterious Stories podcast episode
Quotes
"I just wish we could keep the government out of our pocketbooks and out of our personal decisions."
Derek Keeper•Early in episode
"Derek lived by his beliefs and he also died by them."
Reporter (referenced)•After Derek's death
"As one reporter pointed out, Derek lived by his beliefs and he also died by them."
Mr. Ballin•Story conclusion
Full Transcript
Today, we have two stories that are each about people who really craved attention or status. But instead of getting that, they got carnage. But before we get into today's stories, if you're a fan of the strange, dark, and mysterious delivered in story format, then you come to the right place because that's all we do, and we upload two, three, even four times every week. So if that's of interest to you, please offer to get the follow button some brand new tires for their car. But don't tell them you're going to install monster truck tires. Okay, let's get into our first story called stirring the pot. The Mr. Ballin podcast, Strange, Dark, and Mysterious Stories is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive.com, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. Learn more at Adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat. One afternoon in early September of 2004, 20 year old Derek Keeper sat at a desk in the newspaper lab at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, furiously typing on one of the school's desktop computers. The lab that Derek was in was the hub of the university's school paper, the Daily Nebraska. So there were some other students who were in the space that were talking or working at other computers, but Derek didn't notice any of them. He was completely locked in on what he was doing and writing as fast as he could. Because after he was done with the article that he was working on, he had a ton of other responsibilities that he needed to tackle. So Derek was involved in a lot of stuff at school. He was in a fraternity, he was a senator in the student government, he was a research assistant for the library, and he was pursuing five different majors. And Derek took all of his various commitments very, very seriously. But the column he was currently writing was really the one he had the most fun with. So Derek was from a small city in Nebraska, and even though he'd always been, you know, personally a very loud and opinionated person, he'd never had a real platform for talking about all the ideas and points of views that he had. And so this column really gave him the opportunity to finally, you know, actually present these big ideas to the students at school, and he hoped would likely provoke lively discussions around campus about his ideas. After all, Derek loved a good debate, and so he would intentionally choose to write about really complex issues that would get his readers fired up, like the ongoing war in Iraq and the future of the Republican Party and all the things that were wrong with local politics. The tone he went for when he wrote and talked about these kind of, you know, contentious things was often very sarcastic, very blunt, and provocative. I mean, he really thrived on creating discourse and getting people to passionately disagree with him. And they usually definitely did, to the point where some even would get very mad with him. A lot of times the paper's readers would write furious letters or even send hate mail about what Derek had written. But Derek was really not bothered by that at all. In some ways, that was his aim, to get people all riled up. And he was sure that the article he was writing right now was going to be even more divisive than really anything else he had written. For Derek, though, really for him, it was all about individual freedoms and encouraging people to say no to government overreach in their daily lives. I mean, that really was sort of his general stance on everything. That's really what inspired him to do any of this in the first place. In fact, this particular column that Derek was writing was about how he was advocating for abolishing a set of state and federal laws that were trying to control personal choice and the right to decide what was best for one's body and he was against it. Now, to be clear, the stakes for this issue were life and death. I mean, literally. But Derek believed that the fundamental freedom of being an American was the right to make your own decisions, even if it meant risking your own personal safety. And so as Derek sort of furiously typed away, you know, he was encouraging everyone like senators and politicians, everybody to have the same kind of intensity that he had about this issue, to be just fully bought in on this idea of as Americans, we need individual freedom. And then finally, when he was all done typing, Derek sat back and proofread the whole thing. And when he got to the last line, he got chills. It said, quote, I just wish we could keep the government out of our pocketbooks and out of our personal decisions. Derek loved that line. So he nodded, you know, satisfied with his work. He had nailed it. Then he emailed his draft to his editor with a big smile on his face. Derek's article went to print just a few days later on September 17th. And like most of Derek's other articles, this one for sure got a lot of angry emails and letters from people who disagreed with what Derek had to say. But all the vitriol in these messages just proved to Derek that his article had clearly been a success. He had sparked outrage and got people talking about this issue. Derek even hoped that maybe some of the readers got angry enough to actually take action. That's what he wanted. He wanted his writing to genuinely inspire. The rest of Derek's semester was a total blur. He kept writing his weekly column on top of all of his other obligations and exams and everything else. And before he knew it, the semester was over and he was headed to his mother's house in Texas for Christmas break. A few weeks later, on January 4th, 2005, at 3 a.m. Derek rode in the back seat of a Ford Explorer SUV on his way back to school after the break. He'd caught a ride from his mother's home in Texas with two of his fraternity brothers who were sitting up front. And Derek had spent the first part of this just awful 13 hour long drive doing what he did best, using his sarcasm to make his friends laugh and he was also engaging them in really animated conversations. And so, you know, the first six to eight hours had sort of flown by. But now, you know, it's basically the middle of the night still slash very early morning and everybody had just gone quiet because they were all exhausted from this truly awful long, long drive. All any of them wanted to do at this point was just get back to campus and be done. And eventually Derek and his friends were very close to campus. They were finally in Nebraska and they were driving down Interstate 80, which was a snowy, cold highway not far from the school. And Derek was really excited to start the new semester. He'd had a nice laid back holiday where he'd caught up on sleep and spent a lot of time just kind of hanging out and seeing his younger siblings. But Derek just was not the kind of person who liked slowing down for very long. And so he was quite eager to get back to his busy life on campus, especially he really wanted to get back to his column. He had had a lot of downtime and was able to, you know, brainstorm and come up with some good potential new topics for the column. But he really wasn't sure if any of those ideas were going to top, you know, the very controversial article that he had published back in September. People were still talking about that one. And Derek was still thinking about it too. In fact, his own words and advice to his readers were still ringing in his ears and guiding his everyday decisions. But for now, Derek just leaned his head up against the cold glass window of the car and waited for this long trip to finally be over. But suddenly he felt the SUV lurch. And before he knew it was happening, he heard a deafening bang and he heard his friends screaming. Just minutes later, a police officer was flying down Interstate 80 in his cruiser. Eventually he spotted a group of ambulances parked on the side of the road and he knew that's where he needed to go. So he pulled over to the side and stopped. And when he got out, he saw in a ditch just off the highway was an overturned SUV. The officer immediately jumped out of his cruiser and rushed towards the vehicle. And when he got there, he found the scene was just absolutely chaotic. There were a team of paramedics who were at the window of the SUV trying to assess the condition of the victims inside and to get them out. And when the officer kneeled down to look inside as well, he could clearly see two people inside the vehicle. Now both of them seemed basically fine beyond, you know, obviously being in a wreck. I mean, they were banged up and clearly dazed, but their injuries didn't look immediately life threat. So sort of relieved the officer backed away to let the paramedics do their thing. But very quickly, the officer noticed that more paramedics were actually running past the SUV to something on the ground a few feet beyond it. And so the officer followed them to go see what it was they were running to. And when he saw what was on the ground, the officer just kind of stopped and knew instinctively that there was nothing anybody could do. I mean, there was a body of a young man on the ground who clearly was a third passenger of this SUV, but their body was just mangled almost beyond recognition. It would turn out Derek had been right. His September 17th highly contentious column in the Daily Nebraska would be his most controversial and famous piece ever. And actually people are still talking about it today because his column was about how, you know, we all us Americans reserve the right to make our own choices about our bodies and personal safety. Derek believed that there was a law that was actually directly infringing on that right, which was the law that was forcing people to wear a seatbelt. Derek despised this requirement. He thought seatbelts should be just a personal decision about safety. To him, it was not just about buckling up. It was about individual choice, about freedom. And on January 4th, that SUV that Derek was riding in going back to school, while the driver hit some ice on the road and lost control. The driver and the other passenger in the front were wearing seatbelts. But Derek in keeping with his beliefs was not. And so when the SUV crashed and flipped over, Derek alone was killed. As one reporter pointed out, Derek lived by his beliefs and he also died by them. Every day life is full of moments that you plan for and moments that just happen, often when you least expect them. 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Just before 9 p.m. on Friday, January 13, 2012, 51-year-old Francesco Scatino and his girlfriend, Dominica, sat at a table in a crowded restaurant at a resort in Italy. And they'd been there for a while, having a leisurely meal, so their table was covered with empty dishes, a wine decanter, and plates with the remnants of their amazing food. Now having an extended, indulgent dinner like this one was not technically allowed since Francesco was actually working. But Francesco was not too worried about breaking what he considered to be a small rule because he was not just some hired hand. I mean, he was in charge of this entire resort on Italy's Tuscan coast. And the resort was amazing. It was literally right out on the water and had thousands of guest rooms and six restaurants with over a dozen bars, a theater, multiple swimming pools, and there was even a casino. So it had really a huge capacity for guests. And right now, there were easily more than 3,000 people staying at this resort. And Francesco was, you know, very proud to be the boss of this place, you know, this unbelievable place. He actually had started working at this resort as a security guard. But he'd worked his way up to the very top. And now he'd been overseeing this property for about six years. And being a leader really worked well for his personality because he loved being impressive and feeling important. He'd heard staff and former coworkers complain about how he was too over the top and a bit of a showoff. So he'd heard those things. But Francesco knew that really these people, they were just jealous. He was handsome. He had a great job and he had two just beautiful, amazing women in his life when, you know, some people didn't have any. So now Francesco smiled at one of his girlfriends, Dominica, who sat across the table from him and enjoying the dessert they were sharing. Francesco was married. But recently, Dominica had become the most important woman in his life. She was a dancer and to him she was just perfect. They'd only met a few weeks ago. So they were still in the honeymoon phase, you know, where they were both still very flirtatious and eager to impress one another. And so right now Francesco knew he should leave and get back to his managing duties. But he was having so much fun with Dominica. So he lingered eating his dessert as slowly as he could. But as he sat there, you know, slow playing his dessert, he realized, you know, their night together didn't actually have to end just because the dinner was over. There was something he could do right now that would give them maybe another hour or so together. And it would also completely blow Dominica away and prove to her just how amazing he really was. So suddenly with a big smile on his face, he told Dominica to hurry up, finish eating, because they needed to get upstairs immediately. A few minutes later, Francesco and Dominica hurried into the resort's top floor operation center. Just like the entire rest of the place, I mean, this room, despite being an operation center, was still just massively impressive. In addition to all the very new age, you know, high speed monitors and security feeds and maps all over the room, there was this huge window that overlooked this balcony, this exterior balcony that looked down on the ocean. It was like this beautiful view of the ocean and it even overlooked a stretch of small seaside villages called Gileo. This room was also filled with all of Francesco's employees hustling around and, you know, staring at screens and talking on headsets. But as soon as Francesco and Dominica walked in there, Francesco kind of went to the center of the room and kind of got everybody's attention and told them all to listen up. Then he went over the details of his big idea. The resort was going to put on a very specific and spectacular kind of show called a sluit. And they were going to do it right now. So salutes were very popular in this area of Italy. And Francesco's resort actually did them all the time. So this was not totally unusual. They were basically kind of a performance, mostly for the locals, where the resort would flash all of its lights and play music, while guests of the resort would go to their balconies and wave and cheer to the residents and the other tourists in Gileo. But critically, salutes needed to be both quick and highly choreographed. That's really the only way they worked. And so in order for a salute to work, it really required the attention and active participation from a large number of people. I mean, this was a big to do. And so given the fact that these were sort of a big endeavor, it meant that, you know, something could go wrong if you're not really careful. And Francesco actually had had a mentor who'd actively discouraged him to not do these salutes or try to do as few as you can because of the fact that things could go wrong. But Francesco's mentor was not physically here right now to tell Francesco to stop. And the people that were here were pretty excited about his idea. So Francesco began going over the plan with his staff. And as he expected, with such a complicated undertaking, there were a lot of logistics to look over. However, when Francesco actually started going about these preparations, he realized he couldn't actually read anything because he didn't have his glasses on. He didn't think he looked handsome with them on, so he hadn't brought them out to dinner with Dominica, but now he really needed them. But thinking on his feet, Francesco simply asked a staff member to read him whatever information he really needed to know in order to do this salute. And so the staff member did as they were told. And at the end of it, Francesco felt like he had heard what he needed to hear and he thought everything was in order. And so he nodded and said, okay, we are all set to begin. And then he looked over at Dominica and smiled and sort of nodded like, okay, here we go. Then she knew whatever was coming next was going to be really, really special. When Francesco gave the actual order to begin the salute, everybody in the operations room jumped into action. And as soon as the actual salute began, Francesco squinted out the huge window that looked out over the ocean and Gileo down below and Francesco was just so excited when he thought about how everyone who was out and about in town would look up and see his palace all lit up and full of life and energy. But as he peered at the lights of Gileo, he realized something wasn't quite right. Then without his glasses on, he could see that there was something outside in the darkness just barely illuminated by the town's lights. It was a large shape right between the resort and Gileo. And to his horror, Francesco realized it was actually getting closer, fast. At the same time, but on the other side of the resort, an American man named Brian Aho was eating dinner with his wife and teenage daughter at the Milano restaurant, which was one of six restaurants in the resort. And they just been enjoying their meal when there was this deafening banging sound and the entire room gave a huge jolt and everything inside just sort of went flying. Brian grabbed the table to brace himself as plates and glasses shot off the table and shattered everywhere. And then he heard screams and people hitting the ground all around him as diners were literally being thrown from their chairs. And then there was another series of crashes when some ceiling panels fell from above and smashed onto the ground. But then it was over. The shaking abruptly stopped and Brian immediately jumped up to make sure that his wife and daughter were okay. And they did seem fine just dazed like everybody else in the room. As Brian stood up, he could tell he was mostly okay, also shaken up. But the overwhelming thought was just having no idea what had just happened. I mean, he's looking around and no one seemed to know. It had felt like some kind of earthquake or something. But then Brian thought if this had been an earthquake, he really had to get his family out of this restaurant immediately in case of aftershocks. But it seemed like all the other diners clearly had the same idea because before Brian could actually move, there was a surge of activity around him as dozens of people just began rushing towards the exit of the restaurant. And Brian didn't want him or his family to get caught in the middle of this huge crowd. Huge amounts of people running in the exact same direction, you know, a panicked group of people could easily create a stampede. And he was worried that he and his family could get pulled to the ground and trampled in the chaos. So he looked around and he saw on the other side of the restaurant, there was a smaller door that nobody else was going to. So he and his family began making their way over to it. But before they could actually get through this door, the overhead lights began to flicker and then went out. And then with the darkness suddenly came the blast of emergency alarms echoing through the resort. And then he could hear more screams, not just inside of this restaurant, but sort of all over the place. It was like the resort had devolved into madness. Brian had never been more scared in his whole life. I mean, his pulse was racing faster than he thought was even possible. And he almost felt paralyzed. Like this was just too much to even process. He also, like basically everybody else, had no clue what was going on here. But I mean, navigating his family through an emergency was already going to be horrifying and terrifying and dangerous. But now he would also have to do it in the dark. 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It would take nearly 10 minutes for Brian and his family to navigate the maze of hallways they had just walked into until finally they stepped outside and were in the open air. But when they finally got out there, Brian realized they actually had a really big problem. Because the exit they had just taken had taken them not to safety. It had led them to this expansive outdoor terrace with a railing on the fourth floor of the resort, which meant they still needed to get down multiple levels in order to evacuate safely. But just the fact they were on the fourth floor was not the big issue. The big issue was the terrace was clearly packed with other people, other people from the resort who were also trying to evacuate. There was all these people basically blocking their way. So basically everybody who has no idea what's going on is just like pushing and shoving each other and there were no authority figures or any staff around to actually direct the what now was basically an evacuation. And Brian could tell that the crowd was clearly starting to panic. And really he was too. Everybody was just like, what's happening here? And so Brian was about to suggest to his family that they try to find another way out when they heard the crackling of the resort's public speaker system. And a voice came on that finally delivered some information about what was happening. It said that there had been an electrical blackout, but everything was fine and technicians were hard at work trying to fix the problem. So in the meantime, all the guests should stay calm and just go to their rooms for safety. And at this point, it was very obvious that the mood all around Brian and his family completely changed. People stopped pushing and arguing and panicking. And Brian himself felt that that knot of dread in his stomach sort of loosened a bit. I mean, an electrical blackout didn't seem like a life or death situation. So he and clearly everybody else felt a whole lot less scared. Pretty much right away, many of the guests began heading back inside, you know, making their way to their rooms. And Brian actually spotted a few staff members who were in the crowd, encouraging people to do just that, go back to your rooms. And so for a few moments, Brian and his family and the others just kind of stayed put and just kind of let things play out, you know, kind of watching things settle back into normal. But then it was like with no warning, there was this other huge banging sound and the floor once again buckled under Brian's feet. And this triggered a whole new wave of just absolute chaos out on this terrace. All at once, everybody started shouting and pushing each other and pure panic. And at the same time, there were all these new announcements coming out frantically over the loudspeaker, but it wasn't doing anything. It was like the crowd had decided something bad is happening and no one can tell me otherwise. I have to leave. Everybody is just trying to evacuate all at once. And so pretty much right at this point, you had a group of people who were out on the terrace who decided to charge into the resort to try to find another way to evacuate. And also you had the group of people who had already gone back inside to go back to their rooms who had changed their mind, who charged right back out back onto the terrace. And so for a moment, it was like these two pools of people kind of smashing into each other. And Brian and his family were kind of off to the side because they had just barely stepped out onto the terrace when all of this stuff was happening. But then Brian watched in complete shock as he saw some of the people after they pushed through all the way to the edge of the terrace to the railing, they began climbing over the railing to climb down from the fourth floor. Seeing this was horrifying for Brian. But then he felt yet another shutter under his feet and a loud industrial groaning sound from the resort right behind him. And he knew if he didn't do what these people were doing, he and his family might not be able to evacuate. Clearly, there was a real problem. They didn't know what it was, but they had to go. So he grabbed his wife and his daughter's hands. He shoved his way through the crowd to the railing, over the railing they went, and down they began to climb. Meanwhile, back up in the top level operation center, Francesco was staring out the room's huge window, just completely frozen in shock. His resort was in complete pandemonium. Below, guests were running, others were fighting and shoving, and some were literally leaping to their potential deaths from the upper level balconies and terraces. And so as Francesco watched all of this carnage, he tried to wrap his head around how the night had gone so horrifically wrong. The worst part of all of it was there was absolutely no way to fix it. He'd been trying to show Dominica and everybody else how amazing and impressive and in control he was. But he'd completely lost control of this whole situation. And he'd also lost his girlfriend because Dominica had quickly fled the resort. And then there was a loud crashing sound somewhere in the distance, and his heart pounded and he realized it was time for him to start running too. Minutes later, Francesco and some of his staff sprinted through the halls of the resort. And as they ran, thunderous noises and bangs came from every direction and debris from the ceiling and walls crashed to the ground all around them as they were shaken loose. And all the while, over the noise, Francesco could hear the continuous shrieks of panic from people who were still clearly trapped inside the resort and just couldn't get out. But he and the others he was with finally did make it to the exit. And this exit was not overrun with panicking people. So Francesco was lucky enough to be able to pretty quickly make it to the bottom level and then keep on going. And he did not look back, not until he was far away and definitely to safety. But when he did finally stop running and he did turn around and looked back at his resort, his stomach pitched so hard he nearly vomited. Because finally, he could see right in front of him the full horrible extent of what he had done. It would turn out what Francesco was looking at was the culmination of a record number of terrible choices he had made that night. One, Francesco would later deny this, but he was seen drinking alcohol at dinner while he was supposed to be working. Two, he was not wearing his glasses, which meant he was his most handsome self, but also that he couldn't see very well. And three, he was distracted by his new girlfriend, who he had brought to an area where only key personnel were allowed because he was desperate to impress her. Now, in most workplaces, this would all just be considered unprofessional and maybe might get you fired. But in Francesco's workplace, it was much worse than that. What he had done was incredibly dangerous because the resort that Francesco managed was not a regular hotel. It was a gigantic cruise ship called the Costa Concordia. Francesco was its captain. And when he issued the order for the boat to do a salute, he was not just ordering a complicated but entertaining show. A cruise ship salute also involves steering the massive boat much closer to shore than usual to appropriately show off to the locals on land. But because Francesco literally couldn't see very well, was obviously distracted and possibly drunk, he didn't notice that when they did this salute, they were going way too fast and way too close to shore. That shape he saw rushing towards them in the darkness was an enormous cluster of rocks. By the time he saw it, it was too late. The Concordia had smashed into the rocks, tearing a 230-foot-wide hole in the hull, which immediately flooded the ship. And then making matters even worse, Francesco delayed rescue efforts for more than an hour by trying to convince people that what had happened was just an electrical outage. And then when he finally did issue an evacuation order, he broke a sacred rule for ship captains. He fled the boat before the remainder of his crew and the passengers. Like he was the first one off, he did not go down with his ship. That American passenger, Brian Ajo and his family would survive because after they decided to go over the railing, they perilously climbed down four levels all the way to a lifeboat and so they survived. But unfortunately, 32 other people who were onboard the boat ultimately died, all because of Francesco's desire to show off. Francesco himself was ultimately arrested for manslaughter and was sentenced to 16 years in prison. He was subsequently named Italy's most hated man. A quick note about our stories. They are all based on true events. But we sometimes use pseudonyms to protect the people involved and some details are fictionalized for dramatic purposes. The Mr. Ballin podcast, Strange, Dark and Mysterious Stories is hosted and executive produced by me, Mr. Ballin. Our head of writing is Evan Allen. Our head of production is Zach Levitt. Produced by Jeremy Bone. Story editing by Evan Allen. Research and fact-checking by Shelley Xu, Samantha Van Hoos, Evan Beamer, Abigail Shumway, and Camille Callahan. Research and fact-checking supervision by Stephen Ir. Audio editing and post-produced by Whit Licaccio and Cole Licaccio, Perry Crowell and Jordan Stidham. Mixed and mastered by Brendan Kane. Production coordination by Samantha Collins. Production support by Antonio Monata and Delana Corley. Artwork by Jessica Clogsden-Keyner. Theme song called Something Wicked by Ross Bugden. Thank you for listening to the Mr. Ballin podcast. And just a reminder, every new and exclusive episode we put out on the Mr. Ballin podcast, you can also now watch on the Mr. Ballin YouTube channel that very same day. And trust me, some of these stories you truly have to see to believe. Again, my YouTube channel is just called Mr. Ballin. If you want to listen to episodes one week early and add free, you can subscribe to SiriusXM Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts, or visit SiriusXM.com slash Podcast Plus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. So that's going to do it. I really appreciate your support. Until next time, see ya. The ball is here from 2311 Racing. You know what's slower than a pace car? Waiting at the car wash. That's when I fire up Chumba Casino. It turns these slow minutes into fast fun. With new games every week, you'll never get bored. 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