WHY MORE PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING FREELANCING: HOW TO START TODAY || JAMIE BRINDLE || EPISODE 072

The majority of the American workforce alone is going to be freelancers by 2027. Like, we're changing the shape of work. We're changing the shape of what work looks like worldwide. I mean, it's not that statistic is unique to America, but I mean, across the world, you know, it's going this direction. Freelancing has become ever so popular, especially from 2020 due to COVID. Absolutely. And when did you start? I started freelancing in 2007, maybe. Okay. 2006, 2007. I was in high school still. 17 years old is when I started. My wife and I are business partners, but we were at a stage of our production studio career where we were looking to diversify our revenue. So it's like we had scaled our B2B client-based service substantially to where we had teams flying out to different venues to film and we had editors and what have you, but we wanted to kind of de-risk the business a little bit and diversify the revenue pie. And so we started looking at digital products and we're thinking, well, that would mean we'd have to get on social media and start, you know, selling on the internet. And the plan A was, you know, take the byproduct of all the things that we developed for delivering for our customers and the templates and the, you know, animation rigs and everything and sell them to people that maybe couldn't afford to work with us. So we were going to build an audience of our customers and then COVID happened. And Courtney and I, you know, sat in our second bedroom office and said, what if instead of that, we helped people that look like us build their business, right? So we take the byproduct that maybe we weren't necessarily accounting for, which was our wisdom and experience of doing this for 15 years at the time. My question now to you, what was the biggest mental shift going from surviving freelancer to a business owner that's thriving? What is that big mental shift that occurs? I would say one of the biggest ones was realizing that business is the exchange of money for solutions, not the exchange of money for the thing I do. So for years, I thought, okay, people are paying me because I make good videos, you know, like, and that's dangerous because, you know, you get lucky enough times and you think that that's the reason they're paying you. And really, the reason that people are paying you is because you're solving a problem that's worth more than the money they're giving you. The code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow. So if you are interested in learning a bit more about freelancing, whether you want to start, upscale, or just in the freelancing business, this is the episode for you. I have a gentleman who is an expert in this field, is going to be talking a bit more about freelancing. Yes, if you want to learn a bit more about that, we're going to just break down the fundamentals. We're going to break down the necessities, how to start, how to upscale, you name it. So without further ado, the man, the myth, the very legend himself, Jamie Brindle. How are you doing today, sir? Good, man. How are you doing? Coach you of God. I was going to say, I don't know, man. I should have brought a tie just for this shirt, though. We would have fit better together here. You're good, brother. You're good. No, I've been watching your content. I know I reached out to you about a few months back. We just couldn't make it work. We're busy men. But hey, we did it. We're here. We're here now. I had a two-hour window after I did a few interviews yesterday. I went to the beach. I'm like, I need to get the ocean. If you're in Los Angeles, just go down there. I went down to Malibu Pier and I was just like, just getting just the smell of the ocean, you know, but how are you doing today? Touch the Pacific. I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Yeah. We're, you know, it's traffic was reasonable. Speaking of LA, uh, getting down here, but we were hot off of a, uh, a big meetup that we did, uh, like three or four days ago with a bunch of freelancers in town and it's you know and then there's a bunch of freelancers here and at a convention downtown right now so I mean it's it's a happening week for freelancers for for creative business owners and you know just folks who are who are independent operators so it's it's fun to be it's it's a fun week for us no no that's awesome and how was the event like how um what was the setup like it was great I mean it was we I told all that it was we had we started with a panel it was me Christo, James Barnard, and Adrian Purr, who are all creative entrepreneurs that have done extremely well for themselves and now have made a career out of inspiring others to do the same. And I told the guys as we were headed up to the panel, I was like, living room vibes, guys, living room vibes. I want this to feel like just a living room with a bunch of creatives together. We're just family. Just hashing it out. That matriculated through the whole night and it was reported back to me that that was the sense that everybody got right which is just the the insights that were being shared the you know the the solutions that were being discussed were all i guess the revelatory thing was that we're all kind of dealing with it doesn't matter what stage we're at we're all kind of dealing with a version of the same stuff you know and um the message of the night was you know a lot of the people walked into that room thinking that they were alone and building something on their own and they walked out of the room realizing, oh, no, I'm part of a movement. I'm part of something really big now because the majority of the American workforce alone is going to be freelancers by 2027. Like it's like we're changing the shape of work. We're changing the shape of what work looks like worldwide. I mean, it's not that statistic is unique to America, but I mean, across across the world, you know, it's going this direction. So it was cool to get us all in a room and realize just how strong we are. you know i love that i love that um freelancing has become ever so popular especially from 2020 due to covid absolutely and when did you start i started freelancing in 2007 maybe 2006 2007 i was in high school still 17 years old is when i started and um so you're a 90 90 baby i am a 89 baby okay Yeah. So, and the, um, when I got started, social media wasn't a thing. I'm, I'm in digital video. That was my, you know, my, my career for 17 years. Um, and the only place for digital video to go was television, right? So, so 17 year old Jamie would go door to door knocking on local businesses, door to door. We got that in common, uh, knocking on local businesses, uh, and asking, hey do you need a tv commercial i do tv commercials right and so obviously over time i learned there's a better way to position yourself than i do tv commercials do you need one you know uh but you know all it took was one uh and then that person knew somebody and then that person knew somebody and before you knew it i was you know 17 18 years old i'd go film a commercial and negotiate you know the the airtime with the local fox nbc abc comcast what have you um and and that's you know that's that's what got me started uh yeah it's it's you know flash forward to today and and and ironically 2020 you mentioned is when we started our instagram wow um because you know we we were at a stage my when i say we i'm talking about my wife and i my wife and i are business partners but we were at a stage of our production studio career where we were looking to diversify our revenue so it's like we had you know we had scaled our our b2b client-based service substantially to where we had you know teams flying out to different venues to film and we had editors and we you know what have you um but we wanted to kind of de-risk the business a little bit and diversify the revenue pie and so we started looking at digital products and we're thinking you know well that would mean we'd have to get on social media and start, you know, selling on the Internet. And the plan A was, you know, take the byproduct of all the things that we developed for delivering for our customers, the templates and the animation rigs and everything, and sell them to people that maybe couldn't afford to work with us. So we were going to build an audience of our customers. And then COVID happened. And Courtney and I sat in our second bedroom office and said, what if instead of that, we helped people that look like us build their business? Right. So we take the byproduct that maybe we weren't necessarily accounting for, which was our wisdom and experience of doing this for 15 years at the time. and put that on social media and help folks who are maybe losing their jobs or have a little extra time now that they're working from home for the year and let them know, hey, something wonderful has just happened. As horrific as COVID is and the repercussions of COVID, you now have this opportunity to build something on your own. And it's never been simpler to build something on your own. There's never been more assets available to somebody on that journey. and so that's that's what kicked us off in 2020 and you know i think there was a just a i mean we tapped into the zeitgeist because it was uh i think within a few months we had a thousand followers on instagram and then two weeks later we had 5 000 followers and then two weeks later we had 100 000 followers it was just everybody was very interested in what this journey looks like wow that is crazy but i also wanted to ask a few questions you know obviously with freelancing do you think there is um competitive edge for those that outsource to outside the united states as compared to locally within the united states the reason i say that um i have about half of the people that edit to do all my work are locally they have to be like within utah But we release so much of content and sometimes we have to be at a fast pace where we're still delegating and doing multiple stuff where we also end up outsourcing outside like the United States. And obviously due to like timing and how things work, like they still get the work done. But do you think because of the stand of living and how priceless are in the United States, it's a little harder for those that are within the U.S. as compared to when they outsource like out the United States? I think it all depends on what problem you're trying to solve. Like if you're trying to solve the problem of I don't have money, then yeah, the there you maybe take a look outside the U.S. where your money can move a little further and, you know, and still do some good for the folks that you're hiring. But, you know, like you mentioned in Salt Lake, it's like if you're trying to solve the problem of, you know, something that's localized that you need somebody in the room for, then that's that's where you got to go. So I and I think that too many freelancers, you know, and but the other thing to say is that just because you're not speaking to freelancers that aren't in the U.S., that doesn't mean your only play is to play the pricing game. You know, like there are plenty of freelancers that are in the U.S. that we we pay way more than freelancers in the U.S. that we work with because, you know, we're spending against an expensive problem. So it's like we're happy to you know, if that person's got the fix, that's the person I'm going to hire, you know. But if like if, you know, looking for reasons, geographically speaking, you know, that obviously budget could be one. Another one that's interesting is if you want your business to never sleep. Right. So it's like if when you're sleeping, your team, you know, is on a different time, you know, in a different time zone and they're just waking up and they're getting started. Right. And then they go to bed and you're just waking up and you're getting started. So that's another strategy to put to work as well. And I've noticed that because I'll be calling like an Airbnb call center. Yeah. And then you hear like an Asian or Eastern like accent. Yeah. And you can tell that it's been outsourced from a different country that they can operate 24-7. When I did my internship in Bloomberg in New York before I graduated college, their call center was located in multiple different countries. And because they have to be able to work with customers that can always be on their terminal 24-7. So even though you're calling in the U.S. and you've got a problem with your terminal at like 3 o'clock in the morning, you're going to be calling and potentially could be somebody in South Africa. Right. Or like in the United Kingdom that could be answering your phone call. So I think I completely understand what you're saying. Even for me, I've had multiple different editors, and the one editor that could edit the way I want my stuff like Stephen Bartlett Diary of a CEO where he just picks all the graphic He was not in the United States And I was like I not going to underpay him You did such a great job You going to get what I would be paying if not even more as well, because you're my best editor. And so I want you to do everything you do for me full time from where you're at, and I'll just pay you. And so he's 100% full time for me. Epic. But that's messed up my sleeping schedule, because I'm like, oh, I got this one thing. How about you add that thing at like 3 o'clock in the morning? But I got Jamie Brindle at like 10 as well, so I got to get my sleep. So you look very rested today. No, I love this freelancing thing. So what would you say is the service right now that is going to be booming in the freelancing industry? I mean, here's the thing. I don't think there is any one particular market that's better than the other. Like, I don't think there is a such thing as like a crowded market or an ideal market. I think, you know, really you cut through the noise and you succeed based on the specificity of the problem that you solve. So it's, you know, the market and the skill set are almost inconsequential. Like they're a means to an end. And the business lives or dies by how specific, how urgent, and how painful the problem you solve is. right so yeah i mean you know choose a market that's interesting to you choose a market that maybe you have that's overrepresented in your niche like maybe you got a lot of family in the restaurant business you know so it's like they'll refer you to other restaurant owners or you got a lot of family in fintech you know you or you got a lot of your college roommates went into fintech like you know it's like choose you know something that's where you've got a leg up or at least have some interest in it and then you know once you pick that market go find the the problem that's urgent and painful and then kind of reverse engineer how you're going to solve that problem with what it is that you do you know so it's like if if the problem is you know is oh we're not getting you know the conversions we want to be getting on a monthly basis um then you know and you're a graphic designer then it's okay well what can i do with graphic design to help these people solve that you know okay or you're a web developer what can i do with development to help these people solve that problem you know um so i think that's the play like you know obviously ai is changing everything everybody's business and i'm sure you know it's i mean it's almost a cliche at this point to mention that but like i think you know if if you want to pay attention to one um thing you know or or one you know kind of trendy item it would be that i would figure out how to implement ai in in that solution uh because then you can come at it and you know yield the results of a team of 10 or 20 as an individual. And right now, that's still a competitive advantage. I think that's going to be par for the course like eight months from now. It's going to be the expectation. So if you want to take advantage of a little bit of a window of opportunity, it would probably be that. Figure out how to wield AI now. I couldn't agree more. As a matter of fact, I think I even asked somebody a similar question and they often said AI, number one, as priority, but he also stressed on the fact that even if you learn something like python and like solving people's problems is going to be such a big thing because everything right now has become in in the remote space where it's become a bit more convenient for most people my question now to you um what was the biggest mental shift going from surviving freelancer to a business owner that's thriving what is that big mental shift that occurs? I would say, um, one of the biggest ones was realizing that business is the exchange of money for solutions, not the exchange of money for the thing I do. Um, so for years I thought, okay, people are paying me because I make good videos, you know, like, and it's, that's, that's dangerous because you know you get lucky enough times and you think that that's the that's the reason they're paying you and really the reason that people are paying you is because you're solving a problem that's worth more than the money they're giving you you know and so you know i i got lucky enough times to kind of skirt by um you know where the client sussed that out for themselves like okay jamie can solve my problem i'm gonna hire him but when i realized that that's what was going on, I started being able to position myself in that context, you know, and started talking about my service, that the business results of my service, as opposed to the creative inputs, you know, it's like, I'm no longer talking about shot choice and pacing and color and, you know, with clients, because they don't give a shit. And then I start talking about conversion rate. Hey, how are we deploying this? Is this going to be a captive audience? Like, are you showing this in a meeting room or am I hijacking attention here? Is this going to be a free roll ad that I have to like, how do you know all these things? Okay. Here's the business result that I'm yielding you with my creativity, as opposed to you're purchasing my creativity, you know? And I think that that, that shift in the way I positioned my offer, uh, made a significant difference in our business primarily like, like a, because, you know it's easier to market that way because a business owner you know maybe is is going to skip past somebody talking about their craft and but but will lock in on somebody talking about how they're going to improve their conversion rate you know um but but also be because in in a sales in the sales context like if i'm in a lineup with four or five other videographers or editors I almost guarantee you I'm the only person asking them about success metrics and conversion rates and the context of the audience and where the goalposts are. I'm establishing myself as a strategic partner in that opening conversation in a way that I guarantee you none of the other creatives they're talking to are. So it sets me apart. It sets me into this kind of new category of strategic partner that people maybe aren't used to when vetting freelancers. So I would say that was a big one for me is a business is the exchange of money for solutions, not money for my creativity or whatever my service is. Oh, absolutely. I love that. How have you struggled? I know many people, usually when they start in a certain field, they seem to struggle a bit with like the imposter syndrome where they end up just charging way lower than their value as well. And you see it a lot. But at the same time, how do you balance that with lowballers? Because some people are just lowball regardless. But how can you just how can people not like get over and overcome that imposter syndrome? Yeah, I mean, I have been blessed that I have been able to talk to thousands of freelancers at this point, like one on one in the DMs, on Zoom calls, in our community. And I can say with 99.9% certainty, if you are a freelancer watching this, where's my camera? If you are a freelancer watching this, you're undercharging. Like so many, like it's just a thing. like freelancers just undervalue um you know their their solution their service so uh you know step one is to recognize that like no matter what you're charging right now like you're under charging so start experimenting with your rate it's just i asked the question to so many you know you know how much are you charging and and very few of them will will you know sometimes i'll say you know you should probably just on the next five that come through double the rate and see what happens. And a few of them will take me up on that and then hit me up and say, I got two people to pay me twice as much as I normally get. Funny, funny how that happens. You know, it's just, I don't know what it is. I think, you know, it's a, it's maybe it's a confidence issue. I'm sure there's a little fear involved, you know, scarcity mindset, not wanting to lose the gig. But yeah, I, for the most part, freelancers undervalue themselves. So I would say just start there with like that base fact that like you're probably undercharging um but then in terms of you know once you get past that like what the next the next step of this process is is realizing back to what we're talking about right is is that your clients are spending against the problem so it's it has very little to do with how much you cost and more to do with the certainty that you're going to solve the problem for them does that make sense so so like you know anecdotally when Courtney and I are hiring somebody to, to come into our business and, and solve a problem for us, it's very rare that we don't choose the most expensive option. We almost always go for the priciest freelancer in the lineup because, you know, that's the, that's the person that's going to get it done for us, you know? Uh, and, and it's, you know, obviously we, we vet and make sure, you know, our assumption is correct, but, uh, you know, pricing is a form of communication in and of itself where it's like if you know if you have a very like do or die um uh problem in your business like you know don't solve this and your business is dead in six months do you go to the cheapest option first or you go seek out the most expensive option and work your way back from there right and that's so you want to be that that's and it's i mean it all ties into everything we've talked about so far today it's like you you want to be solving that expensive urgent problem where people are in the mood to just throw money at you to fix it for them. So part of that is done ahead of time with the work that you do on developing your offer, that specificity and figuring out what problem you solve. But then another part of that is done at the marketing stage where it's like, okay, you're targeting people that are in that moment in their business now. Because it's like if you catch somebody who's a year away from that moment or who's a year past that moment, they're not going to be customers for you. And you're going to you're going to think it's not working, but really it's just you've got your you've mistimed your marketing, you know, or you're not speaking to the right person. And then, you know, and then in the sales conversation, it's just it's just, you know, pointing to all those all those pressure points and, you know, and identifying what the solve is. I mean, I couldn't concur more. When you were just talking about that, it reminded me, obviously, I drive a Tesla, but I look back at the time where I could have bought a better model with better range for just an extra $25,000, and I'm like, no, no. And it was also newer, like a year newer as well. And then looking back, I'm like, let's just get this thing. And then you look back in time with the amount of travel I do, because I still like traveling with comfortability that I can do a few stuff. It's such, it's costed me way more than $25,000 in terms of time, in terms of value, because now it's an extra two charges. It's just multiple different stuff. That's funny. It just, you know, looking back, it's like those four years, I'm like, so when you say the cheaper option, I've come to the conclusion, the cheaper option is not always the best. As a matter of fact, sometimes it's always the worst option. It's usually the more expensive option. It's the more expensive. Because those charges have accumulated over time, which I'm telling you, I've already told you I'm going to like three different states, four different cities in the space of this week as well. And just because I'm charging all these different stations, that's just one week. What I'm trying to say is the fact that the cheapest option always becomes the most expensive because at the same time, if you pay what you value, it's convenience, it's more experience it's knowledgeable, it knows what it's doing and it takes the headache away and so I couldn't agree more and I've seen that as well and I was telling them the other time that Aura House Studio out of all the studios I've done I've done also 10 different states it's slightly the more pricier one but then it's the one where when people come in there they have their experience like what a view oh my gosh that's so amazing they're the first ones to go leave a review in like my Apple podcast what I'm trying to say is the fact that I don't even like, whenever the quote comes to it, I pay it as quickly as possible, that I get the thing booked because the experience that the guests gain, I want people to have it, oh my gosh I enjoyed the conversation I enjoyed the atmosphere I enjoyed the scenery I enjoyed and if they enjoy I enjoy the viewers enjoy And it a win win win So that I could not agree when you said that it just rang so many bells and made me want to throw up an awful decision when I try to roll ball and go cheap because it just was such a disaster sometimes you got to learn a lesson the hard way no i think the you know it is it is important for anybody in business to realize what product they're actually selling because it's like we're all we're all selling one of one or more of three things more money more time mitigated risk right it's like literally like and what you just talked about was more time you know they were selling more time with that $25,000 upgrade. Right. And, and maybe the gentleman who, or lady who sold that car to you didn't do a good job of explaining that that's what the, you know, what, what they were selling with that upgrade. Um, so it's, you know, but that's, I think an important part to how you communicate your offer, right. It's, it's like, you don't have to like, come right out and say this, Hey, I'm selling you more money with this, you know, but like it is, you know, one of my favorite questions to ask at the beginning of a, of a sales call is, you know, Hey, what's, what's our report card look like for this? Like, what are, what are the success metrics that we're tracking? Um, and you know, it's, it's funny how often they don't have an answer for that question. And then you get to, as a strategic partner, kind of help them come up with what metrics they need to be tracking for this. Um, but you know, usually in that answer, you identify pretty quickly, okay, they're interested in making more money or they're interested in saving time or they're interested in lowering risk, you know? And then the rest of that conversation is just, it's just pointing at that one thing, right? It's like this, you know, and then we're going to do this, this, this, and that's going to save you more time. And then we're going to do this, this, this, and that's going to save you more time, you know? So it's identifying which of those products your customer is actually buying. Um, you know, tends, tends to do gangbusters in a, in a sales setting love that um so now with those there's somebody out there is freelancing he's got a few customers lined up they're a bit more plateauing it's just very relaxed it's convenient yeah what are those steps they should take right now in order to try and upscale to become a six seven or eight figure business yeah yeah i've this it's funny this this year i've had this conversation so many times with freelancers in the DMs that I've declared this plateau for freelancers. I call it the referral plateau. And I think so many freelancers, when they hit that moment where it's like, okay, I'm financially secure, happy with the work I'm doing, but I have no idea how to grow beyond this, right? My it's, it's, that's why we, we laugh. It's like my next question. I almost never have to ask, but I do for the hell of it. I say, well, how are you generating leads right now? And 100% of the, not even 99.9, 100% of the time, the answer is, oh, I only get leads through referrals. I'm a hundred percent referral. Right. And, and that's, that's why I've called it the referral plateau because it's what's happening is, is the freelancers business has outgrown their network. So they've hit the point where they, you know, it's where we are in what got you here won't get you their territory. Right. So it's like your, your network has done all it can do or ever will do for you. Um, so if you're happy with, um, you know, the, the income that you're making now, if you're happy with the shape of your business right now, cool, keep at it. There's no notes, nothing new to do. You're just going to work off referrals for the rest of your career. But if you want to grow past that plateau, it's time to start doing some different things, right? It's time to activate social media. It's time to start doing some paid media campaigns. You know, it's time to maybe network with some hub and spoke clients, you know, for some strategic partnerships with complementary freelancers or with clients that have clients. um you know look at some productized services look at some digital products it's what we talked about earlier you're diversifying your revenue pie um you know that's that's you you're basically you're looking for higher leverage opportunities where you know it's a referral is very one for one uh you know and and you can play that game and comfortably kind of get to a 10 to 15 000 a month um business but then you need to start looking at one for two opportunities or one for five opportunities you know bundles exactly higher higher leverage opportunities and you know you you go you go to social media for that you go to paid media for that um and you go to hub and spoke clients with clients for that um you know and and you know maybe maybe take a look at digital products or productized services but you also think the mentality behind the fact that i'm not a big corporation i'm just a freelancer do you think that has a big impact with it like you know what i'm okay with about 20 000 a month i'm okay with you know do you think that affects that for sure i mean the beauty of freelancing is it's choose your own adventure like no like you know most of us are doing this because we we love agency like we love that nobody tells us what to do and we get to we get to build the business that looks like what we want it to look like so like if you're you know happy at 20 000 cool like you did it like just enjoy it you know you're you're where you want to be and maybe two years from now you're going to want to you know poke around and figure out how to get to 50 and you know and then you'll have a couple levers to pull you know um but yeah i i think that a lot of people uh although i you know a lot of people so that's the good side of that but i think the bad side of that would be people that use this i'm just one person thing as a limiting factor right where it's like i want to be making 50 grand a month but i'm just one person you know i can't do that and that i think you know a decent portion of, uh, of my content exists to call bullshit on, right. Cause it is, I mean, it's not my original thought, but somebody mentioned it and I agree wholeheartedly. The first solopreneur billionaire has been born, right. With all the tools that are available to us now, um, you know, with, with what you can do with AI today, um, you know, it's, there is, there is no excuse there is. So if you're finding yourself, you know, in that mindset, you know, you got to you got to get real honest with yourself and call bullshit on it. Because, you know, it's it has never the opportunity has never been more abundant than it is today. And it will be even more abundant tomorrow. So it's just a matter of, you know, assessing what it is that you want to accomplish and then backing into that goal. So what does my behavior need to look like for the next six months for this to be my reality? And to follow up on that, you've often emphasized on the importance of three pillars in terms of marketing, sales, and fulfillment. Out of those three very crucial and important pillars, what do you think is the most misunderstood by freelancers and then why? Interesting. um most misunderstood by freelancers i would say fulfillment okay um because they think that fulfillment is doing the thing which i'll give them a pass for that like that makes a lot of sense you know uh but but really um fulfillment is marketing and sales right so if you do all three you know it's an a plus but if you just get fulfillment right it's still probably an a you know it's because if you do fulfillment right your marketing and sales will take care of themselves um you know you know at least you know 80 of themselves so fulfillment i think you know when you really when you when you dissect kind of a real pros freelance business um i think a a key differentiator is that they don't just do the thing. They take their clients on an emotional journey like that they've orchestrated. Right. For instance, we know people remember the beginnings and the ends of things. It's just the way people are. Right. If we're in Hollywood, a good rule of thumb for a movie is if you nail the opening and you nail the ending and you have a shitty middle of the movie, people are going to still think it was a great movie because they'll remember how it started. They'll remember how it ended. Right. It's the same with fulfillment, where if in the first 24 hours you over deliver somehow, right? You really, you really, you know, you late them, you knock something out of the park for them, something that they didn't think they were going to get for another two weeks. You deliver it in 12 hours. They're like, holy shit, we made a great decision. Right. And then you do the same at the end where it's like, OK, here's this thing that, you know, you paid for. But also I made this other thing. That's the exact that's just as much work. So you're you're getting twice as much as what you paid for. Now, you know from the beginning that you were going to do those two things, right? But you didn't mention it because you're designing an emotional journey where you're delighting them at the beginning and delighting them at the end, right? And so what you're trying to do with this fulfillment is effectively turn that person into a traveling salesman for your business, right? In addition to a repeat customer. So, you know, at the end, you want to take them by the hand and walk them to the next offer. or it's like, okay, we just finished this, but if you don't do this, this is only going to do 80% of what you hope it will. So let's come on over here and do this next. Right. So it's like, it's like mapping out that customer journey. Um, so if you do fulfillment, right, you've got repeat business. So it's, you know, it's compounding interest, essentially it's, you know, all the work of acquiring one client, but you're going to get, you know, six or seven projects out of them. Um, and you get, you know, a sales, a sales team, effectively, somebody who's happy to refer you to other people, somebody who's happy to, you know, broadcast to their network, you know, what an amazing collaborator you are. So, you know, you knock fulfillment out of the park, your sales and marketing are pretty much handled. And then, you know, from there, if you want to scale, you know, you don't have to worry about the normal sales and marketing efforts that most freelancers do, you can just go all in on the more advanced stuff. That's money. I love that. I love that a lot. our business does not come without shortcomings, lessons, painful occurrences that happen to us. What would you say personally for you? What's a painful failure or rather a lesson that has occurred while you are a freelancer that ended up shaping how you run your business today? um i would say probably i had one i this is probably year four or five uh into my career where i got a a really big agency customer um you know a client with a bunch of clients and they became the entirety of my work. It was like, literally, I had no time to do anything else. I was only working for, I was, I was a de facto employee for this agency. Um, cause I didn't have any time to develop my own business. And, uh, it took me like two years to realize the risky position I had put my business in, right. Where it's like, okay, I'm not growing. I can't, I can't grow right now. And if, if this business fails, my business fails, um, going back to this whole agency thing that we're talking about. It's, I was, I, it took me too long to realize, oh, I am, I am dedicating, I'm, I'm gifting them a lot of my agency. Right. So it's like, I have to, I'm at their beck and call. Cause if they, um, you know, if, if they fire me, if they're not happy with me, then I don't have income. I got to go figure this out. Um, and so that I think was, you know, when I realized the spot I was in, um, that was a harrowing experience for me because I realized what needed to be done was I needed to substantially charge them. I needed to charge them substantially more, um, so that I could hire help so that I could go run my business instead of be in their business. Um and and of course and I many freelancers I talked to have found themselves in a similar position So they all kind of I think understand uh you know what that means It like okay I have to raise my rates in a way that could possibly get them to part ways with me in which case I'm out. I don't have any income. I can't pay rent, you know? Uh, and it's, it's a rock and a hard place because you want to do what's right for your business, but like, you also want to do what's right for paying rent and, you know, eating food. So, uh, you know, it's, it, it took me a long time, uh, to, to work up the courage to go for it. Um, and, uh, you know, or, or, or to, to, you know, hit send on the email. And I had this call scheduled with the CEO of this agency. The day came and I remember I, I was standing for the call. I couldn't even sit down for the call. I'm standing in the room on the call sweating and uh I kind of pled my case to her um you know and there was kind of some initial pushback she's like well we're bringing you a lot of work and I don't understand why the price is going up instead of down and and I said well that's the thing it is you know and I appealed to her as a fellow business owner I just said I it's I can't I can't grow my business right now and like I really don't want this to be a deal breaker because I'm really enjoying working with you all. But, um, but you know, with the current rates, you know, my business dies. So I, I told, I gave the same spiel I just gave you. I was like, I'm in a rock and a hard place kind of moment here. And, uh, and I have to literally double my double the rate. Right. And, and maybe we can work something out to where, you know, or, you know, it's less money, but I do less to free me up more time. You know, I just laid it all out. Um, and you know, there was a brief pause and she goes, all right, yeah, it works. So just let me know if we need to send anything, sign anything new. And I was thinking, I hung up the phone and after about a 30 second period of elation and a long exhale, I thought, how the f*** much more money could I have? If after all of that, she just said, yeah, sure. How much money are they making off of what I do for them? So it was a revelatory moment in more ways than one. But I would say that was it, yeah. I'm glad you, because the next question I was going to ask you, which was how do you deal with those that essentially want a low ball, you know your value, you don't want to lose customers by sticking to it, so how do you balance the fact that where you have to stand for the value that you offer but with those that keep coming with low offers? Yeah, I mean, there are... you or whether it's an existing client yeah yeah i would say you know uh let's take it like two different scenarios like a new client coming through the door low-balling you um you know approach that with an abundance mindset there are like millions of new businesses formed every day every year a freelancer needs like nine of them to have a great career you know nine a year so it's like i'd say the odds are in your favor um so you know maybe you so i i would pass on those opportunities uh you know you know it's it's just life's short and and it's gonna it's gonna take a lot out of your out of your business right it's the it's the reverse of the the cheapest is often the most expensive same with it's like the low ball clients are often the ones that you lose the most on um but you know i i would say uh but then post game and see okay do i need to do something different with my marketing to get less of those people and more of these people that can actually afford me. Um, but yeah, I never, I would never, uh, you know, if, if you do, if you do need to make something work with that, that customer, uh, trying to keep it practical. Cause I know some people is just like, Hey, I got to pay rent and this is what's coming through the door this month. Um, in that situation, try to find, um, a way to negotiate the scope, not your rate. So, you know, if what you do, ideally you're charging $5,000 for as client comes through and says, we only set aside 1500 for this um you go okay get them on the same page about how what that budget means to their success metrics and say you know this is you're not going to find anybody who can get you this for 1500 so it's like just want to make sure we're on the same page um but there is a 1500 version of this idea let's let's find it together right and so again strategic partner you know and you're negotiating the scope not your fees you're not saying okay yeah i'll make it work for 1500 you're saying okay here's this big thing that we're going to shrink to this and do this for 1500 you know and then when we're ready for the five thousand dollar version you come to me and we'll figure it out um but then the second scenario is a customer you've worked with uh in the past who comes at you and and lowballs you on something uh and that's that's a little more uh a little more textured but the same basic premise right where it's negotiate the scope with them and try to find a way to set them up for the next project where it's like, okay, this budget that you have isn't right for your goals. And by all means, if you can find someone who can knock it out of the park for this budget, send it my way because I'm going to subcontract them. I'm going to add them to my team. But as a strategic partner, as somebody who wants to see you succeed, this ain't it. Here's something we can do with this money though. Right. So it's like once once a client is a client, think of them almost you're almost like their co-CEO. So it's like, you know, your job is to advise and to improve their business. And so if you're not, you know, if they're not making the right decision from a budgetary standpoint, you've got that trust with them, you know, because they already know that you can do that. You're interested in helping their business. So it's like take that opportunity to to make a deposit on that trust bank and say, look, you're not going to get what you want for this money. Let's talk about some other things you can get for this money. Right. And try to try to help them out that way. Now, we mentioned 2027. A majority of Americans are going to be freelancers. Where do you see the future of freelancing? That's such an exciting question. I mean, it's it's I think and, you know, this this is big. But I think that we are very close to a reality where everybody has an LLC. Everybody is in business for themselves. And a couple of those LLCs will get together and activate towards a common goal. And we'll call that a company. We'll call that a corporation. I think we're already seeing it happen. most agencies that i know most agency owners that i know are going to this model where it's all it's entirely freelance right so that was i think that was kind of first blood drawn on on this this prediction of mine this was years ago a lot of agencies are going to an entirely freelance model where you know previously they had three floors of a building now they have one and a bunch of freelancers all over the world right um and that allows them to scale or to flex their team based on the size of an individual client's needs um now here we are in 2025 a lot of companies are hiring fractional execs right so suddenly now the the freaking cfo of a company is a freelancer right that's a fractional cfo a fractional cmo um so now we're seeing this happen kind of matriculate in the corporate world. Uh, I think I, I, you know, in, in the very near future, it's going to make its way into the restaurant industry, into retail, into like, there's going to be a freelancer, you know, a freelance, uh, show floor, uh, specialist whose entire job is to work at a retail store and get somebody from the front door to the cash register in the most profitable manner possible, you know, and that, and that person's going to be courted by gap and, you know and and uh and gucci and like i just think that there's this everybody's kind of cluing into the fact that um you know they don't they they don't have to hand their agency over to somebody to make money doing the thing that they're interested in doing like it's the the promise is no longer there because it used to be you were trading you were trading that agency for loyalty and security and i don't think that that's the case anymore and you know we're seeing people are getting really frustrated with that where they're going, well, why the hell am I interviewing through 12 rounds to get this job, you know, for them to then fire me, you know, a year and a half in because they didn't hit their quarterly goal. It's just like, it's not what it used to be. So why don't I just put that effort into building something for myself, you know, in a time it takes somebody, you know, to interview nine times for a job, they could have built a freelance business, uh, that made more income than the job. Uh, so I, you know, and it's, and it's not even like a hustle culture thing anymore. It's, it's, it's fascinating. Um, I, I do think that, you know, there's a comfort level maybe that, that some people have with being told what they're responsible for each week. So that's something that, um, you know, that's probably a hump we need to get over. Um, you know, a lot of people trade, uh, you know, trade their agency and their freedom or a little chunk of their agency, a little chunk of their freedom for that luxury of, of, you know, showing up to work and being told what to do rather than being on the hook for what you need to do that week to improve yourself, to improve your business. Um, but you know, I, like I said, like it's getting easier and easier. I mean, I think it's knowledge is a commodity at this point. Like if you, if you want to know the most valuable, you know, business advice, you like look they're all online like it's like all all of you know all of our like wildly successful businessmen are all online talking about it you know you ask chat gpt it'll read every book on the on the subject and tell you what you need to be doing um so it's just yeah it goes back to what we're saying there's no there's never been a simpler time to do it and i think that's what the future is going to look like is um you know maybe our maybe our grandkids or our great-grandkids are going to say wow there was a time when people people didn't work for themselves you know episode of black mirror yeah we're gonna say yeah yeah they used to they used to go in and do whatever somebody told them to do wow that's wild wow yeah i love that i love that as we conclude we always ask our guests um what the definition is for winning for them as well because code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow for you jamie what does the term winning mean for you oh gosh i mean i think it means uh i would say being able to wake up in the morning and do whatever the hell it is you want to do agency right it's it's being able to um you know it's it's it's earning yourself the ability uh to move through this world how you deem you want to move through this world so whatever whatever you know whatever it takes to get to that stage of a career um i think is is is what i would define as winning um but that's that's a personal definition and i think that's the beauty of this is that everybody gets to define it for themselves you know so it's that's a it's fun to see and you know when when you get a bunch of freelancers together in a room or just have a one-on-one like this it's you know what it's fun to see what everybody what everybody has to say about it but i would say that's it it's it's having the agency to do you know to to live the way you you want to live jamie if you could look at the camera let the viewers know if they want to get a hold of you if they want to get your course how do you get in contact with you your instagram handle and so forth as well uh yeah hi guys uh follow me on uh instagram or linkedin and shoot me a dm there it was probably the quickest the quickest uh way to get to me and then uh uh yeah let's just if you can't tell i i enjoy chatting about this stuff so so shoot me a dm and uh let me know what you're up against and maybe these next 12 weeks and i'd love to chat with you and strategize a little bit so i'll see you on on social media the code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow if you want to learn about the business of freelancing want to learn about freelancing this is the episode for you jamie's information will be in the description section so without further ado the man the myth the legend jamie brindle thank you very much so thanks man