The Rise of Putin and the 1999 Apartment Bombs

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This podcast is sponsored by Alzheimer's Research UK, the charity that exists to find a cure for dementia. Throughout history, humanity has been defined by its battles against the unknown. From the eradication of smallpox to the discovery of penicillin, we have faced down the most devastating threats to our species through one thing and one thing only. The relentless power of human ingenuity. And right now we are standing at another historic turning point. I'm talking about dementia, the UK's biggest killer. Thanks to rigorous, world-leading research, huge advances are being made in our lifetime. We are seeing the first drugs capable of slowing the decline of memory and thinking in Alzheimer's. And blood tests are being trialled in the NHS to diagnose the diseases that cause dementia. It's not going to be easy and it won't happen overnight. But the more research we do, the more lives will change. This isn't just hope. It's scientific progress unfolding in real time. But history teaches us that breakthroughs don't happen in a vacuum. They require momentum. Science is the solution, but support fuels the speed. Alzheimer's Research UK's sole focus is delivering a cure as fast as humanly possible. By supporting their work, you are quite literally accelerating the pace of history. To find out more about the amazing work they're doing, head to Alzheimer'sResearchUK.org An entire nation was gripped by fear. The government blamed Chechen militants. Many journalists accepted the story, but then the whispers began. People started to question Russia's security services, the Federal Security Service, the FSB, successor to the KGB. Who really planted those bombs? Reporters and politicians who tried to dig deeper, including one Alexander Litvinenko, started to mysteriously die in surprising numbers. And to this day, what truly happened remains contested. What is clear is the impact it all had. Out of that chaos, Putin emerged as a strongman figure. He promised order, security and revenge against those who perpetrated these crimes. The bombings didn't just terrify Russia. They transformed its leadership. They set the stage for Putin's rise to absolute power. This extraordinary chain of events has explored a new BBC Studios podcast called The History Bureau, hosted by the award-winning journalist Helena Merriman. She joins me today to unpack the shocking twists of this story. This is Dansno's History Hit. Helena, it's a big job today. I need you to explain what on earth is going on in Russia. And as many people said, Winston Churchill, for example, it's quite hard to know, isn't it? It is, and to sum up, but I will try my best. Is it best, should we go chronology goose? Where do we start this story? I think we need to start in 1999. Oh, I think we can say Peter the Great. OK, good. We'll start in 1999. We're fast-forwarding that. OK, you're fast-forwarding all that bit. Why happened in 1999? Why is that important? Let's set the scene. So what we're about to do is tell the story of the Russian apartment bombs, which is one of these stories, probably like you, Dan, I'd heard whispers about it for a long time as a journalist. That's something about these four bombs didn't quite add up. So you have four bombs, they blow up four apartments, hundreds die. And then this very, very strange set of murky events that happened in the weeks after that lead to all these strange conspiracy theories. Right at the time that one of the most powerful men in the world today, Vladimir Putin, first takes power. So this is really the story of the origin of Putin's Russia. So it all starts in 1999. So it's eight years after the fall of the Soviet Union. You have this new country, Russia, led by Boris Yeltsin. And at first he was hugely popular. People loved him. He was flamboyant. He was charismatic. But he gradually gets older, iller, drunker, and people realise they need a successor for him. You know, there was corruption sweeping through the country. So by 1999, people in Russia want someone new. And Yeltsin knows that too. But he has no obvious successor. There's four prime ministers in just 18 months. And that sets the scene for them what happened in September 1999. It first happens in a town called Boonaksk, very remote town, thousands of kilometres from Russia. Russians are in their apartments, they're bedding down for the night. They've been watching a football match. And suddenly a truck outside one of these apartments explodes. And the apartment sinks to the ground. 64 people killed. But interestingly, that bomb doesn't really make the news, because it happens near the border with Chechnya, where there's been fighting in the past. So the country moves on. A few days later, there's a second bomb. And what you can see with these bombs is they explode in such a way that the fronts are ripped off these apartments. So you look at them, it's almost like a doll's house. And you could see really sort of the detritus of human life that have been lived in there. Children's toys, clothes, meals laid out, tables and chairs. It reminds me of the V2 bombs during the Second World War in London. Just shocking. Exactly that. So the second one goes off at five in the morning. And this one makes the news. Why? Because it's in Moscow, the heart of Russia. So now the story breaks out. But then a few days later, there's a third bomb. Exactly the same. Five in the morning. This time over 100 people killed, also in Moscow. And by now the panic really sets in. People start sleeping outside on the streets. They're so afraid because what you have to remember is that in Russia, almost everyone lives in these tall, prefab apartment blocks that sort of stretch meters into the sky. They're very precarious and everyone is thinking maybe it will be us next. And seemingly at random? It seems very random, apart from the fact that they go off in the morning. And it's after that third bomb that Russia's latest Prime Minister gives his first address to the public. And that's Vladimir Putin. Right. Who sort of not a very famous figure at this point. Exactly. No one really knows much about him. All people know about him as that he was once head of the FSB, Russia's Internal Security Service. He was very unremarkable looking, short, rather weedy, unforgettable people. In Russia had this term for him, Syrian misca, the grey mouse, because he was just so unremarkable. But he gets up and he gives this speech, this interview to the press, where he talks about going after the rabid animals that did this. He says he's going to hunt them down in their bases. And people seem to love it because it's so different to what they had from Yeltsin, who was much more measured. Here is this man offering revenge and retribution and people love that. And it's difficult. The trauma of that sighting. I mean, it's a sort of almost like a 9-11 style. It's a shocking event, this domestic. Yeah. I mean, these were among the biggest, the largest scale terrorist attacks in the world up until this point. And at this point, they're not even over. So a few days after Putin's speech, the fourth bomb explodes again, five in the morning in a town called Volgodonsk. Women, men, children, babies killed. And the question everyone's asking is who is doing this? And the answer was pretty instant. Everyone said, well, it must be militants from Chechnya. Right. Because very recently Russia had been fighting this horrific war with Chechnya. So Chechnya want to be breakaway republic within the former Soviet Union, now within Russia. Exactly. Right down in the south. Down in the south, wanted to break free partly because it was a very different culture to the rest of Russia, but also decades of very brutal treatment at the hands of Russian leaders. They asserted their independence. Russia had no intention of letting it go. They sent in the tanks, this very brutal war that ends with a peace deal, but crucially, not with independence for the Chechens. So there's this sense of unfinished business on both sides. So when these bombs go off, that's why everyone immediately thinks, oh, it has to be Chechen militants. And so I think you're about to tell me that there's a deeper story here. Yes. Exactly that, Dan. So it's at this time that one of the strangest parts of the story happens, which is in a town called Rizan. And this is just a few days after that fourth bomb. And by this point, all over the country, there are these patrols that have formed. People are looking, you know, up and down the street, it's looking for anything suspicious. And at 9.30 in the evening, there's a man called Alexei Kartofelnikov. He's looking out of his window and he sees this white Lada car parked. And what makes him suspicious is that part of his license plate has been obscured. So he calls the police, police come, they search the building, and inside the basement, they find three white sacks of powder attached to a detonator and a timer. And the bomb squad looks at the material that was in these three white sacks. It's white, it's grainy, and they test it on their machines and they say it tests positive for hexagon, which is a military grade explosive that was found in at least one of the other apartment boxes. So it seems to fit the pattern of what's been going on up until now. So you'd think, well, it's a bomb. And they, they race out, they then evacuate the whole building and it's an absolute panic. They're pulling people out of their bathtubs, old men and women out of the building and they're all racing downstairs. They sleep in the cinema for the night. And the next morning they all wake up and Alexei, they say as a hero, you know, he saved the city from this fifth bomb. But here's where it gets very strange. They then begin a manhunt. They, they lock the city down, they shut the roads, they shut the local airport, the train stations, they get pictures from Alexei and they put them up in the, in shop windows. And there's a telephone operator sitting at the phone exchange and a phone call comes in from someone inside Rizan saying, we've got to get out. And so she listens in and she thinks, okay, this might well be one of the bombers. So she writes down the phone number where they're trying to get connected to. And she hears a man on the other end saying, you've got to get out. You've got to split up. She passes that number onto the police and you would expect, given they've just blamed Chechnya militants for these bombs, that that number would go to a militant in Chechnya. But it doesn't. It goes to a number belonging to the FSB, Russia's Internal Security Service. Until recently run by Vladimir Putin. Exactly. So people start thinking, hang on, this is really, really strange. This doesn't make sense. Even stranger when they then find two men who look just like the bombers, local police arrest them and the two men say, we're not bombers. We're FSB and they take out their ID cards to prove it. So at this point, things go quiet. And then two days later, Russia's Interior Minister is giving a speech to various police and he talks about what happened in Rizan. And he says this was a shining example of people stopping, stopping, you know, would be bombers. And then there's a half an hour gap during which something very odd happens. Because half an hour later, the head of the FSB, then a man called Nikolai Patrichev, who succeeded Putin comes out, journalists spots him, runs over, asks him about Rizan. And he says something that completely contradicts what the Interior Minister says. He says, oh no, there wasn't a bomb. This was just a training exercise run by the FSB to see if you were paying attention. And you were. And they say, actually, this wasn't hexagon, it was sugar, but our testing equipment must have been contaminated for women used it in Chechnya. And no one believes it. Russian journalists at this point are living in a reasonably free media environment. Start asking questions, presumably. Yeah, they start asking questions. And there's one particular Russian journalist who manages to track down two soldiers who are guarding a warehouse near Rizan. So just before this, this fifth unexploded bomb. And he interviews them. It turns out that they had been guarding a warehouse and they thought that inside it was sort of full of weapons. And at one point they said they got bored. They'd gone into the building and they'd found sacks of white powder. And they just assumed that it was sugar. So they'd made a cup of tea. They'd put in a couple of spoonfuls of what they thought was sugar, tasted it and spat it out. And they said it sort of burnt their insides. And so this Russian investigative journalist concluded that perhaps here they were guarding sacks of hexagon that were potentially used in this device, in this bomb that had been put in this building. Again, it's hard to say. We weren't able to speak to those soldiers directly. But this is an example of Russian journalists who aren't letting this story go. But those questions are rather sidelined because right at that point, Putin sends fighter jets to Bon Chechnya and the Second Chechen War begins. And that's the shiny, interesting thing that everyone wants to cover. Not the fifth unexploded bomb that doesn't go off. You're listening to Dan Sonow's history. We'll be back after this break. This podcast is sponsored by Alzheimer's Research UK, the charity that exists to find a cure for dementia. Throughout history, humanity has been defined by its battles against the unknown. From the eradication of smallpox to the discovery of penicillin, we have faced down the most devastating threats to our species through one thing and one thing only, the relentless power of human ingenuity. And right now, we are standing at another historic turning point. I'm talking about dementia, the UK's biggest killer. Thanks to rigorous, world-leading research, huge advances are being made in our lifetime. We are seeing the first drugs capable of slowing the decline of memory and thinking in Alzheimer's. And blood tests are being trialled in the NHS to diagnose the diseases that cause dementia. It's not going to be easy and it won't happen overnight. But the more research we do, the more lives will change. This isn't just hope. It's scientific progress unfolding in real time. But history teaches us that breakthroughs don't happen in a vacuum. They require momentum. Science is the solution, but support fuels the speed. Alzheimer's Research UK's sole focus is delivering a cure as fast as humanly possible. By supporting their work, you are quite literally accelerating the pace of history. To find out more about the amazing work they're doing, head to Alzheimer'sResearchUK.org. This episode is sponsored by EDF, Britain's biggest generator of zero-carbon electricity. If you love history, you'll know the Industrial Revolution ran on power. Well, today's revolution is cleaner. With EDF, you can take part. They're generating more British zero-carbon electricity than anyone else, helping customers save cash and carbon. With their Sunday Saver Challenge, when you shift your weekday peak electricity usage, you can earn free electricity to use the following Sunday. So fire up a full Sunday fryer, batch cook for the week, or tackle the laundry guilt-free. To find out how EDF are helping their customers save cash and carbon, visit edfenergy.com forward slash r-power. EDF Change is in our power. UK FuelMix Disclosure Information, published by the Government Department, Desnais, recognised electricity from wind, solar and nuclear fuel, produces zero-carbon dioxide emissions at the point of generation. For verification, visit edfenergy.com forward slash zero-carbon. Uncovers how two world wars shaped her grandmother's life. Listen to a family history of Wherever You Get Your Podcast. The country's traumatised, it's scared, it's desperate, angry, and so someone can present themselves as strongmen, a protector. Exactly. And this is where it gets very interesting, because just two months later, it's 31st of December 1999, remember the Millennium Bug, if people are young enough to remember that? Old enough to remember that? Everyone was scared that planes were going to fall out of the sky, and banks would collapse, and so it's 31st of December, and Boris Yeltsin is sitting in the Kremlin, and suddenly he pops up on television over lunchtime, and he makes this very emotional speech, where he announces he's going to stand down. No longer be president. He was meant to stand down in June, but he's standing down early. And waiting in the wings is that short, rather wiry, forgettable man, Vladimir Putin, who is now Prime Minister, and there's very moving footage of them from that day, and you see Yeltsin, he's sort of trussed up in this fur coat, looking very old and bloated, and there's Putin, looking very energetic suddenly, and they shake hands, and Yeltsin says, take care of Russia, and he gets into a car, and Yeltsin disappears into the snow. And that was the handover. It's the handover. I mean, at that point, Putin's acting president, but look, he's in charge of a war, he's got the nuclear briefcase, he's acting president, but now with a huge mandate behind him. Very struck, Putin looks very different to the image that he would later try and cultivate himself. He looks rather sort of geeky, like a little bureaucrat, rather smartly dressed. Exactly that. And I think that's how people saw him still at that point, a little bureaucrat, this former FSB guy that no one really knew much about. Again, when you contrast him to Yeltsin, who was very big and imposing and had this real innate charisma, Putin didn't have that back then. But he looks managerial, doesn't he? Yeltsin looks disorganised. He can imagine corruption, his health is failing. He symbolises a different kind of Russia. Putin looks rather modern. Exactly. There was a modern sense to him. He was a man who understood the power of the media, who understood the power of image. He had people around him who were desperately trying to shape his image, because they were very aware there were all sorts of polls done in Russia where they would ask people about the kind of president they wanted. And people would talk about characters from spy films who were sort of very good-looking and suave and sort of action heroes. And so they very, very overtly tried to get Putin to follow that model. And did the FSB shambles with that last one? Were people joining the dots like you are now? One way to look at it, that is with the numbers. So you look at his approval ratings in the summer, 2%. Which again we can trust, because they were roughly quite objective at this point. Exactly. At this period, exactly that. 2% of the country thought he would make a good president. Wow. So he was a no-hopper. Yeah. And then after the apartment bombs, this Warren Chechnier, him suddenly being all over the news, they rock it in just two months to over 40%. Okay. So better, but still not foolproof. So he then has to run a presidential campaign. But at the time that he's running his presidential campaign, there is one TV network called NTV. So it's an independent TV news network. They're loosely modelled on BBC and CNN. And they were a real thorn in the side of Vladimir Putin. So they had this amazing puppet show called Cookly, which was a bit like Britain's spitting image. And every week the star puppet was this baby that was made to look like Putin. And Putin hated it. And the ratings for this program were huge. I mean half the country would tune in and watch it. And they had the idea to create a TV show where they would ask the residents of that building in Rizan with the unexploded bomb to come on. And on the other side, they'd ask the FSB. And you think the FSB would say no. I mean, in now this would be unthinkable. But they say yes. And I've watched the show and it's extraordinary. It's sort of like, you know, those 90s tabloid daytime TV shows like Jerry Springer, where instead of, you know, did you sleep with my boyfriend? They're basically saying, did you try to bomb our apartment? And the residents, they are so emotional and angry. And they're shouting at the FSB. They're saying, how dare you try and make us believe that this was all just a training exercise. You dragged us from our beds in the middle of the night. It was hugely traumatic. And person after person gets up to shout at them. And the FSB, they say, well, this was all part of a ground operation called Whirlwind Antiterror. And at the end, one of them holds up this brown paper bag that's been sort of sellotaped together with masking tape and says, all the evidence is in here, but we'll never go into showing. What a moment. And this was three days before the presidential election. So this TV show, you know, here is a TV show, primetime TV show, asking whether the FSB had bombed their own people. And, you know, Vladimir Putin too. There's a question that no one dares ask on the show, but that's the implication. The show goes out. There's a phone call from the government to them to say this will never be forgotten. And indeed it isn't because a few days later FSB commandos storm NTV. They arrest the owner. He's thrown in prison. The network closes a few years afterwards. And three days later, Russians go to the polls and Putin wins in the first round. I guess that's the moment now, presumably. Yeah. It's the moment of, well, it's an interesting question that I think there are people now who still say actually that first year he was really still consolidating himself. He didn't have full control of the media. He did close NTV. He was, you know, we see the beginnings of the Putin that we know now very much in those early months, you know, controlling the narrative, controlling the story. And, but what does happen is that he, he does manage to control that narrative and he does manage to present Russia as the victim of militants from outside. And who is the savior who can protect them? Vladimir Putin. It's very interesting why, how our modern societies have got this, this bug, which is mass media plus sort of the charismatic image of a strong man plus creating some kind of panic does seem across various societies since the invention of the wireless and TV and now the internet. It seems to be a very potent combination. It's happened again and again in from place to place. It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a playbook. Absolutely. And I think Putin's one of the masters of it. And what's interesting is that he develops it so quickly. So, so very, very early on when that new war with Chechnya begins, he attaches himself to it. He's putting on military uniforms. He's getting onto fighter jets. He's on the front line giving these heart thumping speeches to soldiers there and people love that. He's, he's no longer the FSB guy in a suit and over time he, that's, that's the image that he cultivates that we, that we see today. And the bombing stop mysteriously. So he's succeeded. He's, he's, he's stopped the terrorists blowing up apartment buildings. But what does happen is that in Western journalists in the Western world, you know, Western leaders are lining up to make friends with him because they can all see how things are changing. And he presented as reasonably saying that. I mean, I mean, people were writing op-eds in the gardens saying we can do it. He's not a drunk, crazy old drunk guy like Yeltsin. He's a rather snappy dresser and he's sort of modernist. And he said nice things about Western democracy. Yes, yes. There was this great hope that here is Russia on this straight line to becoming a, you know, a democracy like the rest of the West. Tony Blair is one of the first Western leaders to phone him. He goes to Putin, then goes to meet George W. Bush in the White House. And there's that very famous moment where an American journalist asks George W. Bush, you know, can you trust Putin? And Bush says, I looked into his eye and I saw a man that I could, you know, that we could, that I could trust. A man deeply committed to his country. So everyone drank the Kool-Aid with him because they wanted to believe that things would be different. But in Russia, it was very different. Journal, a lot of journalists were asking very unsettling questions, even after what happened with MTV. And then there's this moment in 2002 when people within parliament wanted to set up an official parliamentary inquiry to investigate the bombs because there were so many unanswered questions. There's a vote, a few people vote against it. So in the end, they can't have an independent parliamentary one. But then there's an independent commission. So it's a group of journalists, parliamentarians, some lawyers. Just do it themselves. Yeah, 10 of them. They start investigating. They find out all sorts of interesting things. But within a few months, one of them is coming home one night. We don't know the details of what happened, but his body is found bullets through his head. So he's shot very soon after beginning his work on the commission. Just a few months later, another man involved in the commission, he starts feeling unwell, taking to hospital, his skin peels off. Doctors say, oh, it was probably an allergic reaction, but a lot of people think he was poisoned. Yeah. John LeCarré would call that a Moscow center hit. Yeah. And there were quite a few of those in relation to this story. Really? God, that's just extraordinary. People will be familiar with the extraordinary images of Putin, shirtless on horses and hunting and doing that kind of thing. And so this starts at that point. He's presenting, well, the strong man. I've got trouble on this podcast, so we're talking about strong man, but it's a piece of political theory, isn't it? We've described these people as one. We've described them as trying to present as a strong man. Yeah. And that's so he's doing that on the PR side. He's doing that, but he's also, there's a dark side, which he is enforcing with violence, that you're but shoring up that totalitarian grab. Exactly. And one of the interesting stories that is connected to this is the story of Alexander Litvinenko, who is a man that a lot of people know because he was poisoned on the streets of London. He died very slowly in the glare of the media spotlight. But what I hadn't realized and what people may not know is that he'd spent the last few years of his life investigating one particular story, and that was the apartment bombs. Okay. So Litvinenko, he'd been part of the FSB in the 90s, part of this special unit to deal with crime. He'd seen a ton of corruption and he wanted to do, he was a believer in the ideals of the FSB. So he goes to see then head of the FSB, Vladimir Putin, 10 minute meeting with him. And he tells them all about the corruption, thinking rather naively at that point or idealistically that Putin might want to do something about it. It became very clear to him that Putin wasn't interested. He leaves the meeting, but Litvinenko doesn't go quietly. And just a few days later, he organizes that famous press conference where he and four other FSB officers talk publicly about the extent of corruption. But here's the thing. They all wear masks. Litvinenko doesn't. He shows his face. He shows his face. So a few days later, he's arrested, put in prison. He comes out and arrested again. And he realizes he will never be safe in Russia. So he manages to escape to Britain where he is paid to investigate the bombs. And he uncovers all sorts of details, I think probably the most stark of which is a transcript from the Russian Duma from the time of the bombs, where the speaker of parliament, he's just organized a minute silence to commemorate everyone who's died. And he's then handed a note. So this is all happening in real time. He's handed a piece of paper and the piece of paper says there has just been another bomb. And the speaker says this bomb blew up a building in Volgodonsk. But the thing is he's got the name wrong. It's in Moscow, but no one pays attention because, you know, it's just an innocent mistake. But three days later, where's the building blown up? Volgodonsk. So, you know, to mistake the name of a city is one thing. But for that to be the name of the city where the building would be blown up three days later. Is that coincidence? That is extraordinary. So he uncovers a whole remedy, a whole sort of truckload of details like this, writes them up, puts them in this book, which he calls the FSB blows up Russia. So pretty obvious what he thinks. But the book doesn't get much coverage, partly because people in the West just think the idea is so impossible to believe, you know, that the FSB would blow up their own people to help get Putin into power. Few Russian newspapers print a few chapters. That's about it. And a few years later, Lipvinenko feels ill one day. Doctors think it's his tummy bug. He ends up in hospital every day. He's getting sicker and sicker. People probably remember that very famous photograph of him lying in the hospital bed with a green gown, a tangle of wires over his chest. He's booled by that point. All his hair is fallen out. And they discovered it was polonium poisoning. He dies. And the British government then carry out an inquiry into his death and they conclude that he was killed by Russian agents by agents acting on behalf of the Russian state. And that the kill order probably came from Vladimir Putin himself, which, you know, acclaim Putin and the FSB have always denied. We can't prove he was killed because of his work on the apartment bombings. But I think that was a crucial part of it, for sure. Who does the Russian state, presumably they have to find someone to blame for these forms that put the story to rest as a rule? Very good question. And you would think that the people they would try would be Chechens, given that they had started a second war. Yeah, they'd blame them. Yeah. But they're not. They eventually, they have a list of suspects from various parts of the Caucasus. None of them Chechen. They eventually find two men that they say they're the only two of this list who aren't dead or in hiding. They bring them to Russia for a trial in October 2003. It's a closed doors trial. It goes for two months. And at the end of it, these two men are found guilty of murder and trafficking of explosives and the string of other charges, sentenced to life in prison. And the files are then locked away and sealed for 75 years. Are Russians just simply now being denied the opp... Is that just the oxygen is just not getting to this story? Or is it being circulated in whispers? Or are they being bombarded with so much propaganda? They actually believe they believe the government line. What do you think really is going on in Russia in this first decade of the 21st century? Are they mouth to mouth? Are they sharing the reality of this story? I think as the decades have gone on, it's got much harder because you look at where we are. You know, back in 1999, as you were saying before, there was still a degree of free media. So people could open the arseys questions. Now you look at Russia, you have Facebook banned, Instagram banned, newsrooms have been shut down. But here's something that's really interesting. When a couple of years ago, there was something that happened. There was a terrorist attack and a lot of questions afterwards about what really happened. And one of the most searched words on the Russian internet was Rizan sugar. So this is a throwback directly to this particular story. It lives on. It lives on. And I think it will always live on because until these questions are answered around what really happened in Rizan, was this really a training exercise? Would a government really carry out a training exercise in the middle of the worst terror attacks in their history? Volgodonsk. And I'm asking these as open questions. You know, we, the frustrating thing having been looking at this story for the past year is that there is a real lack of forensic evidence. Unlike 9-11, the World Trade Center, where that site was kept intact for many months so people could comb through it. In Russia, after these buildings were bombed, the remains were cleared away in just days. So there's very little to go on. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence. And with that circumstantial evidence, you can build a case that goes in either direction. I mean, there are a lot of people who still think it was Chechen militants. You know, they had the motive in 1999, the Kremlin's grip on Chechnya was slipping. So this was quite a good moment for them to reassert themselves. And this was part of a, arguably, part of a pattern of behavior. You know, just look at what happened afterwards with the theater siege in Moscow or Besslan. Because we should say the theater siege in Besslan, we think, was actually carried out by Chechnya. Exactly. So there were acts of terror being carried out by Chechnya. Bombs in the Moscow Metro that they absolutely claimed responsibility for. So there were undoubtedly a lot of militants in Chechnya who wanted to kill Russians, ordinary Russians in Russia. That's undeniable. But there was also, as we've seen, there was also motive for the FSB. And again, a lot of unexplainable events that people still can't explain even now. I've been one of those people over the years who said, if in doubt historians always, if it's cock up or conspiracy historians always go with cock up. Because conspiracy is very difficult. People are, this sounds reasonably incompetent as well, but people are so incompetent. Institutions leak, stories get out, especially with the free press. Maybe that's the difference here. Is it weird pursuing a conspiracy? Which could well be true. I think I came to this story really quite skeptical about this story. I think I'm naturally again skeptical about conspiracy theories. I'm a much more of a believer of the cock up theory. But I think as I've looked through this story, it could be that both things are true. I mean, I should say we haven't found hard evidence that can prove things either way. But there's another train of thought. There's another theory that perhaps the answer could be both. We often do an either or in journalism. We look for neat stories. This was either the Chechens or it was the FSB. But there's a world in which it was a very chaotic mixture of the two. It could be that the first bomb was carried out by Chech and militants. And perhaps the FSB saw where things were going and thought to make mileage from that. The FSB, what is again, not in doubt, is that the FSB has been riddled with corruption. So maybe this wasn't a plan orchestrated from the top, but the work of a few corrupt officers further down. Some people think Boris Borozowski was involved, one of the first and most wealthy oligarchs who then got tangled up in this story. So there's no shortage of theories. What's not in doubt is that the bombs did help pave the way for Putin to become president. Of course, that doesn't mean just because he benefited from them doesn't mean that he was behind them, that he was involved in a grand conspiracy. And a lot of people who think the FSB were involved don't necessarily think Putin was too. Others say, well, of course he was. He was the head of the FSB in Putin as someone who always wanted to know what was happening in every corner of the organizations that he ran, the FSB that he ran. So again, you have different versions on different sides and ultimately we still don't have any hard evidence. But people are still looking. This is a story that is still raising a lot of questions that people are still intrigued by. And I think journalists both within Russia and outside are still asking these tough questions. You are far too young to have been there on the ground yourself at the time. When you've talked to foreign correspondents, journalists that were there in the country, what have they come to be? Have they changed their views for hindsight? It was really moving actually interviewing people who were there at the time. And they were very honest and I would say vulnerable really about what they thought were mistakes they made or leads they didn't follow up on. And I'm very conscious that it's very easy for me as a journalist right here now to pick apart and look at the leads that they didn't follow up or the questions that weren't asked. But here they were, the country was changing under their feet. And as journalists, we are trained to report on what is visible and what is interesting and what is new. So we go where there's a new war happening. There's a speech or so you can see why when the new Chechen war begins, that's where the focus of journalism is. It's much harder to spend to convince your editor to spend time looking at a bomb that doesn't go off. I feel a huge sense of gratitude to people who have spoken to us for this story. Making it was difficult because a lot of the people that we wanted to speak to didn't want to speak on the record. Or are dead. Or are dead. There's a big kill list that's developed behind this story. And we're very aware of that. And we made the decision not to interview anyone who is still a journalist inside Russia now for their safety. But even speaking to Russians outside of the country was difficult. People that would, I think, perhaps have talked to us about other subjects. A lot of them said they wouldn't talk to us about this one. This seems a particularly touchy subject, especially for Putin. So I'm very aware of the number of very, very brave, in particular, Russian journalists who've risked their lives to report on this story. Some of them have died. Some of them who have, who are now carrying on even now. And I think even for the journalists who were there at the time, not necessarily Russian, but those who are now looking back and with question marks over what they did, I think this story is really a broader one about the pressures of journalism and perhaps our desire for neat narratives. And beyond the journalists, I think in our desire for the West, you know, for Western leaders to see Putin in a certain light, I think that desire clouded their judgment. You know, it's stepping back more broadly when you think about Putin and what we've seen since in Ukraine, Crimea. It's taken the world a long time to realise what kind of man he is. You're a journalist. I come from a family full of journalists. Journalists are important, right? I mean, we've learned in the last, if we didn't already know it, they are clearly as important to functioning democracy as any, as any formal branch of government. Exactly that. And I think, you know, one of the dangers at the time that we're in now is that are we've seen the effect of social media on journalism on how it pushes people to more extreme positions and how it makes that daily job of often that sort of grunt reporting of asking, you know, those questions that don't automatically look like they will lead somewhere. And that's getting, I think it's getting harder and harder to do that. But thank God there are still places and newspapers and broadcasters who are still doing that. Thank God for you. Well done. Good work. Thank you, Dan. A lot to think about there, folks. A lot to think about. Please make sure you go and check out the History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs, wherever you get your podcast. It is a brilliant piece of journalism. And I should say, though, folks, it is audio only. See you next time. The night's Templar and the Nazare is my Elis and we'll relive the climactic siege of Acre, the epic battle that finally ended the Crusader presence in the Holy Land. All these episodes coming in April, so follow Dan Snow's history here or smash that subscribe button if you're watching on YouTube and you won't miss a single one. The World Moves Fast. You work day, even faster, pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Co-Pilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and Google. Help you quickly write, analyze, create, and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more at Microsoft.com. It's been a lovely challenge for me to remember her and to write a quite ordinary person back into history. A Family History of is the brand new podcast that takes you inside the lives of everyday people at pivotal moments in Britain and Ireland's past. 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