S11 E1 | "What Does It Mean To Be Spiritually Healthy?" With Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Listen to this review we recently just received from a listener named Nikki. She writes, I discovered the Therapy and Theology podcast during a frantic Google search in the midnight hours. I was searching for answers to the questions that kept my aching heart awake. I felt terrified and abandoned, but not by God. This podcast was my lifeline when I thought I was going to drown. You see, it's generous people just like you that help reach women like Nikki with the truth of God's Word when they need it the most. If you'd like to give a gift today so therapy and theology can reach even more women in their desperate moments, go to proverbs31.org backslash give now. Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shea Hill, and I'm so glad that you're tuning in today. This season is called Health Check, where each week we're going to tackle one specific area in our life and learn how to be the healthiest, most whole version of ourselves. We'll cover spiritual, mental, emotional, and relational health over the next four weeks. And in today's episode, I sit down with Dr. Joel Mutamali, and we talk all things spiritual health, and I cannot wait for you to hear it. As you listen to this season on Health Check, it's really for adults, but one of the biggest concerns I hear from youth pastors, teachers, and especially parents is this. How do I really help the young people in my life who are struggling emotionally and mentally? If that's you, you are not alone. That's why I want to tell you about the Youth Mental Health Coach Program from the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. It's a biblically based, clinically excellent training that equips you with practical, real world tools to support youth and their families. You'll learn how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health challenges that young people are facing today, including anxiety, depression, digital addiction, and emotional regulation. You'll also learn how to respond with care and when to step in and when to refer to a professional. Right now, you can receive a full tuition scholarship and get started for just a one-time $54 technology fee. If you're in ministry, education, counseling, or simply feel called to help, this training gives you the confidence to make a real difference. Learn more and apply at mentalhealthcoach.org, or you can visit the link in our show notes below. And before we jump in, here are a few reminders. Number one, subscribe and receive episodes straight to your inbox by clicking on the link in our show notes below. Secondly, we are launching a brand new podcast exclusive segment in 2026 called Listener Mail. And it's brought to you by our friends at Compassion International. These segments will include a question pulled from one of our listeners just like you and an answer from either Lisa, Jim or Dr. Joel. Tune in on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen and make sure you listen all the way through to the end so you don't miss it. And lastly, we want to know how therapy and theology is helping you work through what you walk through. So leave us a review or a comment on YouTube and tell us all about it. Okay, now on to today's conversation. Hello, Joel. I'm glad to be with you today. I'm so excited for this conversation because we are the first episode kicking off this series that I'm loosely calling health check. But really, I wanted to kick off therapy and theology in 2026, diving into how can we really approach this year, becoming the healthiest versions of ourselves and not just like physical health. I know that this is a big time of year for people to get back in their gym memberships, maybe you're doing whole 30 or, you know, you have like health goals that you're trying to 75, which nobody should ever try to accomplish in their lives. Right, exactly. So those are like all great. But I really wanted to look at, okay, if therapy and theology is here to help us work through what we're walking through, that's really more so talking about like our inside lives. And so we're going to spend the next couple of weeks talking through different areas of health. And I thought that it would be really important for us to start with spiritual health as the first episode, the first area of health that we dive into. And here's why. I believe that spiritual health is foundational for every other area in our life that we want to flourish in. I think when we are spiritually healthy, it keeps our motives pure for all of these other areas of our life that we want to flourish in. And so I'm really excited to pick your brain today just about how can we truly be spiritually healthy in 2026. So let's just go ahead and dive in. I want to hear in your own words or in your research, however you want to answer this, what does it mean to you to be a spiritually healthy person? Yeah, I mean, I think you kind of nailed it already, Shay. I think often what we think about with health, when we're getting into the new year, we're thinking so much about the outward appearance, like we care a lot about what we look like. I'm in the gym pretty consistently, not because I try to be healthy, but that's the place where I do most of my thinking, which is kind of funny. And so January, it's like, you know, the people that are in the gym all the time, they always kind of get annoyed because it's like, oh, here we go. The influx of all the brand new people that have all the best intentions. And honestly, there's a part of me that's just very empathetic. Like, I really understand that because I find myself in the exact same pattern. And so if you find yourself in that place, like that's not a condemnation against you. That's like, man, there's an impulse that you have inside of you that is a really good impulse. And that impulse is that you're actually desiring health. You want your outward appearance to flourish. And I think what I love about what you said, Shay, is that that outward appearance flourishing in the biblical worldview is intimately and intricately connected to the inward flourishing of who we are. And so, you know, I'm a theology guy, so we'll get a little theology nerdy here for a second. Post-Enlightenment, kind of the post-Enlightenment movement, industrial revolution, like all this kind of stuff, created a different kind of thinking that made the physical and the spiritual as if they're two disparate or two separate categories. but in the ancient worldview, the biblical worldview, and in the time of the New Testament, these two things were not separated. They were not disconnected. They were very, like I said, intimately interconnected. And I want to, somebody like, well, Joel, I need you to prove it. Like, happy to. Let's take a look at Eden, right? We always go back to Eden. If our friend Lisa was here right now, she'd just be smiling, you know, from side to side. Like, Eden is the place we go back to. And in Eden, I think it's fascinating that the human origin story begins with a physical creation in the sense that God steps down and he crafts Adam. And that Hebrew word adam, it actually is a categorical term for all of humanity, right? So the way the ancient Hebrews were thinking about this, sometimes we think either or, like it has to be a singular individual. The ancient Hebrews are fine thinking both and. They're like, oh yeah, this is the story of the Adam. And it is a poetic display of what does humanity's origin story look like. And so you've got that, that God comes down and he crafts humanity from the Adama, which is the dust, the soil, that's the Hebrew word for soil. And he creates Adam, man, right? And so instantly we're like earthly, physical. But then life doesn't begin, this is so wild, until God bends low and breathes his breath of life, the Ruach, the spirit into humanity. And that's when life begins. And so to point this out, to really like exegetically and theologically affirm everything that you just said, Shay, it's like, when does real life begin? Real life begins when God's spirit, the spiritual reality flourishes inside of the body and animates the rest of our body. And so that's kind of a long way. And I just want to give like that was an Old Testament example. Let me give a New Testament verse. First Thessalonians 5.23. This is Paul talking to the church in Thessalonica. And he says, may God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. I kind of love that. He's already like, hey, by the way, this is a lot of work. Sanctification, a lot of work. It's going to have to take not just one through, maybe multiple through. So sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the one who calls you and is faithful, and he will do it. And so we find out two examples, one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament that kind of bookends this idea that the human is a spiritual being. Like we're both spiritual and physical. Okay, so to your question, what does it actually mean to be a spiritually healthy person? Post-fall, we have to take into consideration the reality of human brokenness, you know? And so a spiritually healthy person, from my vantage point, is a person whose heart affection is aligned with head knowledge, right? And so there's heart love that is matched with head knowing, which then flows in what you actually do. The specifically healthy person is like spiritually healthy person is well aware of both their aim and their ambition. The spiritually healthy person has an aim for Jesus. Like that's who we're seeking after. And our ambition is to be like the one that we're aiming after. This is what brings spiritual health to us. And I think a spiritually healthy person, and this is kind of interesting in my vantage point, a spiritually healthy person is aware of emotional health and emotional decline. mm-hmm sometimes we think that spiritually healthy equates to human perfection right or like like like we're just like we're living it right we're like at the top of our game i'm unconvinced that's what the bible is actually talking about when it comes to a spiritually healthy person i mean think about jesus he's going through it like he is suffering he's dealing with betrayal he's dealing with roman like government oppression he knows the cross is coming there's demonic activity that's happening all over him. And so if we were like, man, you know, the condition to be spiritually healthy is everything is going well in your life, that you're just at peace with everything that's happening. I'd be like, well, then Jesus was an incredibly spiritually unhealthy person because he's going through a lot of stuff and we would never say that. So what does it mean to be spiritually healthy? It's not about perfection. Spiritual health is a commitment to progressive sanctification. It's saying like, I am aware of these areas of my life that I still need Jesus. You know, the indwelling Holy Spirit, I need some good friends around me. We're gonna get some of these things. And then finally, I would just say like, when I think of spirit, the spiritually healthy person, I think of a person who takes accountability and exercises their God given agency instead of opting for blame shifting or gaslighting, and then kind of taking on this victim mentality And in fact we see this error all the way back in the garden with Adam and Eve Adam like to God it was the woman you gave me God Like if I Eve I like what is this knucklehead who was with me the entire time right Now he's saying it's this, you know? And so, yeah, I think that's kind of what is, and a spiritually healthy person is aware that spiritual health is an action that starts and is an action that continues to grow. I think of 2 Peter 3, 18, where Peter says, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. To him be glory, both now and forever. And so a spiritually healthy person is the one who understands that they have received grace, is a person who extends grace to others, is a person who has a knowledge of Jesus, of their Lord, and whose knowledge is being revealed in and through both their words and their action. And so I think that's what it means to be a spiritually healthy person. Yeah, so good. I love so many things that you just said, but to kind of summarize it, I love how you pointed out that we're spiritual beings here in a physical world. I think for some people listening today, that may be like a huge light bulb moment that goes on. but also some of the other things that you're talking about of what is our aim and what is our ambition. I wanted to point out John 17, three, this is the ESV translation. And it says, and this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I just love that verse, because I feel like it sums up what we try to overcomplicate. Sometimes I feel like this is where Jim would say it's simple, but not simplistic. Yeah, of like, to know God to know the one true God. And what an incredible aim for 2026, like that this would be a year that we would truly know God. And some of the other things that you're talking about, I also had in my notes as I was preparing for this conversation that like spiritual health does not equal spiritual perfection. And it's really easy, I think, to look at maybe people that even like have a platform or people that are on a stage or people that are kind of like front and center and maybe like assume like that is like the peak of spiritual health, like being on a platform and being used by God in that way. But I love how you talk about it's really more like our inside world, taking inventory of our inside world. And only God can help us test like the intentions of our heart and to know like the purities and impurities of our heart. And something else that I have thought about too, is I think a component of spiritual health is spiritual honesty, like really sitting before the Lord in honesty and being honest with him about where we're at, being honest with him about how we feel about him and our relationship with him. And I think that's a component that will come up today of just really like, yeah, sitting in like transparency. I think that also translates to like spiritual community, which I'm sure we'll get to. But I love so many things that you just shared, Joel. So as we're thinking about spiritual health, we kind of know like what the ultimate goal or what the aim would be. What would you say are some things we need to be aware of that would threaten our spiritual health? What are some of these like signs or signals that something is off almost like the dashboard of our car, the check engine light coming on? What are some signs that maybe something is a little bit off in our spiritual health? Yeah, there's a kind of an ancient writer. Her name is Teresa of Avila. And Teresa of Avila wrote a really great book with this concept and the concept is of the interior castle the interior castle so if i remember correctly i think she kind of came up in the medieval kind of era and so like the idea of the castle um you know like the monastery you know brit and i were just watching a movie and in the movie they were no it wasn't actually i lied she it wasn't a movie this is so wild you know where it was i got my teeth cleaned yesterday and i was at the dentist that's where this was and i was sitting in the lobby and at the or my dentist place they have the tv and they play like house to farm or you know like whatever these like like hgtb like shows are you know and it was like i just saw this couple is looking for a house but they want to have like um horses and so they're in like pennsylvania you know and they go to a place and it's like a barn but they walk to the back and the the gal who's shown the house is like, this is the most beautiful part of this house. And it's the original kind of brick arches of the very first barn that was back there. That's like super ancient. Like it looks like something and it's like in ruins, you know, and, um, but you still see like all the arches intact. And, um, when I think about that example, and I think about what you're asking about with like, what are things that we need to be aware of with our spiritual health? And I think about a person like Teresa of Avila, who wrote about the interior castle, I think there's the sense that like, the things that we need to be aware of are the things that can erode our inner being and our exterior being. And the most scary things that can erode like our being are typically not the blatant things that are right in front of us. Like we know the things that can destroy us, right um it's like um like just absolute lust um it's like uh an un uh dealt with pride it can be addictions you know like that kind of like that that stuff right um but like i think there's other stuff that can threaten our spiritual health i'm reading a book by a guy named arthur brooks and and he's talking about contempt you know and i think about our society and it's like gosh we live in a world of contempt and i think contempt is one of those things can absolutely destroy our spiritual health, contempt looks at another person. And it starts often from like, I dislike, or I disagree, or I'm frustrated with, or we have different background, right? And then it goes to, I hate that person. That person brings no value into our world. Like, that is contempt, man, that'll destroy you. And contempt grows from a small place that's left unattended. And so, So like, what are these things? I think that a couple of these things can be categorized as disordered desires, that we have really good desires that God created us with. Food is a good desire. Working out is a good desire to be known and to know others. These are really good desires. I was just having this conversation with my son this morning before he went to school, and we're just talking about idolatry. And he's kind of walking through some things right now. And I was just like, you know, son, what idolatry ultimately is, is taking any good thing and turning that good thing into an ultimate thing that displaces God. And it's like, well, what are the things that we need to be aware of that threaten our spiritual health? I think it's stuff that, and okay, here's another part. Like I'm kind of thinking out loud with you, Shay. The other part about this is also we think often in purely like earthly, physical kind of realities. And yet all the way throughout the scriptures from Genesis 3 to Genesis 6 to Genesis 11 to Jesus in the wilderness temptation. In fact, my new book, The Unseen Battle, it all talks about like spiritual warfare. And I think it's intimately connected to spiritual health. And in that you have a real enemy who hates you, you know, who wants to see image bearers of God absolutely disconnected from the Lord. And I think one of the greatest tactics of the enemy is to present an exchange of dependence. Wow. To present an exchange of dependence. And what do I mean by that? So this is what can threaten our overall spiritual health, that the spiritually healthy person is a person who's aware of their need for Jesus. so there's dependence on christ there's a dependence on the spirit of god um there's just dependence aimed in the right place what the enemy will often try to do is present us with good things that will try to become ultimate things where our dependence is no longer on the lord but we find our dependence in being known right in hanging out like this is the conversations i'm having with all my kids right now hanging out with cool kids being known as cool like having the right things. And I think about even in my own life, you know, it's, it's desire to like, love the Lord and to make a difference in the kingdom of God, and then be deeply convicted that am I actually trying to make the kingdom of God great? Or am I trying to make Joel's kingdom great? Well, you know, and I think these are things that are in the interior castle, in the inside of our hearts that can really threaten us that we need to be aware of. And so another last thing, and this is kind of, I don't know that anybody would be expecting this, but I think a threat to our spiritual health are things like boredom. Yes. Right? Like you get bored, don't know what to do, and you start snacking on food. And all of a sudden that snacking on food becomes a lot of, and then it's like, oh, I've actually attached my dependence to food, right? The gym is another great one, like boredom. It's like, man, I need to like do something with my time or whatever. And you go to the gym or like a boredom actually becomes a conduit to filling up the time. Cause I don't think many people want to be bored. This is where the Netflix thing comes in. The whole idea of social media, you know, there was a time. Do you remember early, early on when you could actually get to the end of the scroll on Instagram and it's like you hit it and it said congratulations like you're all caught up now we're never caught up you're never gonna be caught up no and they whoever is the algorithm geniuses over there they figured out real quick they're like first feature to go away the all caught up feature we never want you to be caught up ever again you know we will fill every amount of your time and so I actually think that things like um boredom um can become a place where because we're not comfortable with that and we don't know what to fill it up with in appropriate, healthy ways can become conduits to really be detrimental to our spiritual health. Hey, everybody. Dr. Joel Mutamali here. I'm pausing today's conversation real quick to tell you something very important. One of the biggest concerns I hear from listeners, youth pastors, teachers, and especially parents is how do I actually help the young people in their lives who are struggling mentally and emotionally. If this sounds familiar, I want to share something powerful from our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. They've put together the Youth Mental Health Coach Program, a biblically-based, clinically excellent training designed to equip you with real-world skills to support parents and caregivers navigating youth mental health challenges. This course walks you step-by-step on how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health struggles that young people are facing today, including anxiety and depression to digital addiction and emotional regulation. You'll also learn how to relate to them, how to respond to them, and when it's necessary to refer them to a professional. The best part? You can claim a full tuition scholarship right now. Just pay a one-time technology fee of $54 to get started. Whether you're in ministry, a teacher, counseling, or just feel called to help, This training gives you tools and confidence to make a difference in the lives of youth and their families To learn more and apply visit mentalhealthcoach Yeah that so good I so glad that you brought up the enemy because I think as I think about okay, what would Jesus want for us? Like spiritually, I obviously think about John 10, 10, that we would have life and have it abundantly. But then it also talks about that the enemy has come to steal, kill, and destroy. And so I think even as you're taking inventory, as I'm taking inventory of my own life, of my spiritual health to really sit before God and honestly process, where is the enemy trying to steal, kill, and destroy? What are those areas that is coming up in my life? And then also where you're talking about some of these other things like our, I think you said disordered desires or kind of trying to reach for those good things that can become ultimate things. I think there's a strong element to of self-awareness a little bit required here of just knowing like you're wiring, because even in the example of boredom, each of us will be tempted to feel that boredom with different things, depending on our personality or just season of life. As I was thinking about my own life, I wouldn't say this is like a 911, like red flag. when I think about my spiritual health, but I would say this is kind of that initial, like the check engine light just came on. It's time to like, go see a mechanic and like, see what's going on. Uh, and for me, it's going through the motions. I think when I start to feel like I'm just going through the motions and maybe even I'm doing all of the like, right Christian things, but my heart feels very disconnected from those things. Um, where I treat my like relationship with Jesus as like a box to check or something, a job to do rather than like an overflowing of my heart. Um, and I feel myself start to go through the motions. That's when it's like, okay, I think there's a little bit of something off here. Another thing that, um, I realized in myself too, would just be like, if I have just a presence of like dread, um, that I have in like a few areas of my life where like joy is just not really present. I feel like that's kind of another sign for me that something is off. But I'm really glad you brought up boredom because I think that that is something that is so true. And I know that a lot of times, like even in early, the start of an early new year, like a lot of people like get off social media or they're like, I'm going to read my Bible in a year. And so you like delete the apps or you do certain things and then you like have to make peace with this like idle time and it's difficult, you know? Um, so as maybe some of these things are coming up for us and we're realizing, okay, I think I have some areas that like, I really need to tend to, how do we invite the Lord into that space? And how do we ask for his help rather than turning to scripts in our mind that are very shame filled? Like I'm such a bad Christian, or I'm such a failure, or I'm letting God down, or I'm always going to struggle with this. What are some ways that we can maybe even pray through that or talk to the Lord about not trying to like supersede spiritually and like, because it would be really tempting, right? And our humanity to be like, I'm going to do better. I just need to be stronger. I need to be more committed and more disciplined. But you've already told us, okay, we got to come back to it's the spirit that started this. So how do we not turn to shame? How do we not turn to trying to be a superhero and get ourselves out of this mess? but really start to talk to the Lord about where we're at spiritually and start to see progress. What does that look like? Well, I would say that the way that you tackle it, because what you're talking about really is our tendency to like use the phrase superhero, but this tendency to be self-sufficient. Totally. Independent. Independent. We want to, and really, I think what we're trying to do, Shay, is we're trying to prove something to ourselves and to other people. Maybe we're even trying to prove something to God, which is kind of a wild thing to think about like what do we need to prove i think i was thinking about that scene with job when god finally it's like who knows like 30 40 i am forgetting exactly how many like chapters and god silent you know it ain't saying a thing this dude is going through it he ain't saying and when he finally says something he's like hey man you better like you know get dressed right because uh you better be ready because uh because now like i'm about to teach, you know? And it's like, here we like thinking like, like, it's almost like insanity. It's like, gosh, like we can prove something to God, you know, like we can actually fix this on our own. And so I think that the answer to the self-sufficiency question is actually greater dependence on God. It's actually greater love and effect. And so again, this is the Jim Crest thing. It's so simple, but far from being simplistic. It's like, like, what's the answer? it's like love Jesus. What's the answer? Like actually embrace your weaknesses. What's the answer? Recognize you do not hold the world together. God does, you know? And I want to like take a step back and just consider this, that you used a word shame. And I, you know, different people disagree. I want to always be honest. I think there are some theologians that might disagree with what I might say, but I think that the way that the English word shame has evolved. We have to deal with it as it is today, like how it's embodied and being used. And the way that it's used today, I do not believe it is used in a way that is reflective of the kingdom of God. Right? So I would say that shame actually is a tactic and tool of the enemy. And yet God does use something to draw us back to himself. And the thing that he uses is this thing called guilt. And so what is the difference between shame and guilt? I would say that God created humanity innately with a almost response system built into the neural fabric of who we are, that when we do something wrong, we feel remorse for that thing. there is a sense of guilt there is this awareness that arrives like oh man i've done wrong again a lot of examples with my kids right just because i'm deep in the kids example and all this stuff is very new like it just happened yesterday brought levi home from lacrosse practice and we're getting home and he's like my gloves just got here from my new e-bike that you know he got for christmas like oh cool gets there and as soon as we get in his other sibling comes over and is like i'm sorry levi's like why he's like i opened your package for you and i opened the the gloves oh no and levi was so because you know it's like christmas for him he's like he can't it's kind of a big deal like getting amazon packages and stuff and i'm thinking about like what is that thing that liam had the thing or you know um what is the thing that my other son had the thing that my other son had was guilt he recognized when he did that thing that it was gonna hurt his sibling it was going to, you know? Yeah. So there was another option that he could have opted for, and that's isolation. That's shame. That's hiding away. That's, or it's, it's self-defense. It's like, you know, it's gas. It's like, well, it's not that big of a deal, right? All of that kind of stuff. And so the Lord wants to use guilt in our life in order to draw us back to him, because he wants us to be restored. He wants us to repent. He wants us to, to recognize these areas that maybe we've done an exchange of dependence, you know, and we need to go back to him. These are the areas that we've been self-dependent. Here are the areas that I need to return to like my love and affection for King Jesus. And so that's one. Shame will lead you deeper into isolation. Shame is like the perfect tactic of the enemy because often the outcome of shame is despair and loneliness and disconnection, both from God and his people. And almost in an interpersonal way, shame leaves you almost disconnected from yourself, which is odd. Shame leaves you disconnected from the truest authentic self of who you are and who you're supposed to be. And rather it reaffirms something that God has never said is true of you, nor should be true of you. And so I think that the way that we address this and the way that we process it is we process through a thing that I've often called a theology of remembrance. It's so simple, but it's like crucial that we remember that Jesus on the cross beckons all of us to himself. I think often of that verse, Shay, in Romans, it's like Romans 5, 8, but God demonstrates his own love for us in this while we were still sinners. Not when we got our stuff together, not when we did all the right decisions, not when we accomplish 60% of our Bible reading plan. Not, you know, it's like, no, like while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And so I would just suggest in a way it's, it's even less about inviting God into that space, but it's about returning to God who has never left our side. It's about Jesus who experienced the full weight of sin, shame, and death on a cross so that you and I would never have to like willingly intentionally live in the midst of that shame. Like we can exchange that for the goodness and the healing that comes from King Jesus. So anyways, going back to the sanctification, which you kind of mentioned earlier, I feel like in my own life, in the day to day, it's very hard sometimes to see the spirit at work, to see tangible change that has taken place. But then I think you look back, maybe even from right now, think about how far you've come, how far the Lord has brought you since you first got saved. And you're like, wow, I am not where I was. Maybe I'm not where I want to be, but the Spirit really is at work. And so as you think about maybe changes you're wanting to see in yourself, Because I think that's really like the essence of what, why we set these goals. Like you even mentioned, like the Bible reading plan, um, is that we're wanting to see change. We're wanting to experience change like in ourselves, in our lives. Uh, we're wanting like more of something, less of something. We want more peace, less stress, you know, uh, less anxiety, um, more like fun and joy in our life, different things like that. I do think as we're saying that we're not, you know, going to be like spiritual superheroes and that we're going to aim for perfection and do all this by ourselves. I do think there are some spiritual disciplines that are at play in this conversation, because I do think there's some protection built in into that. And as I think about different people in my life that are the most spiritually disciplined, I often do think that they are really spiritually healthy, not because they're a slave to their spiritual disciplines, but I think they have really found what keeps them healthy. And so I want to talk about that for a second, like the spiritual disciplines at play. I think one that I wrote down is like community that we're transparent with, which I would, I guess the more like biblical term for this would be confession. So like confession at play, I think Sabbath is a huge one that I feel like has also really come back as like a spiritual discipline that our culture has kind of like unearthed as like this like lost commandment that we've kind of like let go. um and so yeah what are some of those spiritual disciplines either in like your life or maybe like mentors that you've seen like they have this like really locked in and it has helped keep them spiritually healthy yeah honestly there's something that i've started to do that um an ancient wise sage uh a friend of mine her name is shay tate hill once said oh i know that was a surprise i was not expecting that i know you're yeah um so i think it was a while back shay you said something about you starting to do this gratitude like journal thing right I got this from Jess Connelly I have to give credit where credit to you i love you jess um you know i started to do that i i uh and i tried like so hard to do these different journal things like monk journal like and honestly it's just like feels so overwhelming to me like i just can never keep and so like i have a very simple process now i have a little journal that i keep with me and there's nothing filled into it it's just literally at the very top, I put the date, I put like what I did to work out. I did like, if I did my cold plunge or my sauna. Um, and then, um, I write like the best part of the day, the worst part of the day. And like one thing I'm praying for. And then at the very bottom, I just draw like a line, like a line. And then at the very bottom, I just write like the, the thing that I was grateful for, the thing that brought me like just joy or happiness, you know, in that moment. And so, So I think, and I think this probably came from you as well, that concept of stacking gratitude. Like, you know, like you're just daily, like all of a sudden your eyes are being trained to see other areas of gratefulness that you typically would not be able to see. So that's one of them. The other thing is just daily Bible reading the best that you can. I've changed this year to audio, which is kind of why it has been really fun for me. Like I've never done this before. So you're listening to the Bible? I'm listening to the whole Bible. Yeah. And I literally just put it on my Bible app. And the place that I listen to is actually in the sauna. When I'm in the sauna and in the cold plunge, and I just listen to the Bible. And I'm telling you, there are things that are popping up out of the text, like spiritual health, right? Like Abraham is consistently going to places in his like journey where it's suffering and it's grief, but he leaves those places with like plenty, with bounty basically. And what happens is, and this is not like prosperity. This is just like a pattern that God's trying to teach his people is you think that you can save yourself and you get into that situation. This is the whole thing with Sarah and Egypt and, you know, which is wild, Abram. you gave your wife to like what are you what is wrong with you and you're afraid for your own like the dude's a knucklehead anyways um that was not the best moment that was not and he did that twice by the way which is great um so it's like he but then the text says that as he leaves um the pharaoh uh gives him like all this wealth on his way out you know and well why this is telegraphing something it's telegraphing the egyptian exodus because all the way like hundreds of years later when the Egyptians, when the Israelites are in Egypt and God tells Moses, he's going to let his people out. He also says, and by the way, they're not going to be left. They're not going to go out empty handed. The Egyptians are going to hand them like all this wealth. And you're like, wait a minute, I've been prepared for this moment. This isn't the first time God has done this, you know? And so I think just like reading your Bible on a daily basis, narrativily, like as a story that is unfolding is something that is just going to encourage you in your spiritual health. It's like a pattern that it's not that you are these people. It's that you're recognizing that the eternal God, who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow is still acting in similar ways on behalf of his people. And so, yeah, I would say that's the other one. And then the last one is just community. You already said it. I would say it's community is have some people around you that they just don't think too much of you. They're just kind of unimpressed with you. I just love it. You walk in, no matter how big the accomplishment is in your life, they're like, cool, awesome. Now, why does your breath stink so bad? You were in the same thing for six days, bro. You got to, are you okay? Everything okay? I just think that those those people are really important for our spiritual health because sometimes we do have blind spots. We cannot see ourselves. So we're dependent on other people that love Jesus more than they love us to speak truth into our lives. Yeah. And they're committed to seeing, they want the spirit to have the best fighting chance to make us the version of ourself that the Lord always wants us to be. And they care about that more than they care about like people pleasing and comfort and like saying the thing that we want to hear. And I think that's something that is such a gift. The older that I get is just realizing the friendships that I can be like the most honest about where I'm at. Those are usually the most flourishing friendships in my life, like not the superficial ones, but the ones that truly I can just be like, this is where I'm at, you know, and it's not buttoned up. It's not polished. But like, this is where I'm at. And even like we had, we have neighbors that we have like a annual Christmas dinner with. And one of the things that we talked about with my husband and then the other, this other couple, and we've all been walking with Jesus for a long time, was like every single one of us kind of expressed just like our woes of where we were at with Bible reading of like where we were kind of at, we kind of all talked through like different things we've tried, different things that we like plans we've stuck to what we were trying to do, like in the new year. And that was just such a refreshing conversation, I think, to just sit amongst like fellow believers. And it didn't turn into like, all of us kind of like heaping on, you know, like negativity, it was just like, we've been walking with the Lord for a long time. And like, this is easy to like forsake, like it is easy to like snooze that alarm or like let this rhythm go. But we were all able to kind of share like different things we've tried different things that have helped us enjoy. And so that's another thing I kind of love that I think is easy to forget is spiritual disciplines. They are a discipline, but I also think it's okay to set yourself up well and do things that you enjoy. Like right now, Joel, like you're enjoying listening to the Bible and audio, you know, and that's like helping you love that discipline because you actually like it, you know? And so figuring out what those things are. Another thing I feel like I would really like to try to do this year would be like prayer walks. Like it's so tempting for me to like go on a walk and like throw in my AirPods and just like listen to something. It could even be like worship music, Like not a bad thing, but I think trying to create more space for like quiet and actually intentionally trying to make prayer a practice in my life. I feel like movement could really help with that rather than just like sitting in my living room and being like, okay, I'm going to try to pray now, you know? And so that's something I'm going to try this year. Another great thing I think is just like boundaries on your phone with like social media, making space for like quiet, just so you have like more time for the Lord in your life, right? Like, I don't want my time with God to look like just like my quiet time. And then like, it's done, you know, Joel, as we this has been so good. Thank you for your time. As we wrap up today, as people are listening, and they're thinking about where they're at spiritually, right now, and where they want to be by the end of 2026. What is just one last like word of encouragement or nugget of wisdom for them to hold on to as they aim to be the most spiritually healthy version of themselves this year? Yeah, Shay, as I was thinking about this, I kind of wrote this down. So I'll just read kind of what I wrote in my journal. I said, you know, spiritual health isn't about being perfect. It's about being persistent in our desire and dependence on God. Our health is intricately tied to his presence and provision in our life. And so I think I just want people to leave this conversation maybe reframing spiritual health less about a thing that has to be achieved in totality and perfection, but something that is lived out in light of our great need for the Lord. And he has given us his spirit to equip us to be able to live a life that is healthy, a life that honors him, honors ourselves, and then honors other people. Yeah, that's so good. I am so grateful for this conversation, Joel, and I'm really excited that you're kicking us off with this new series. And I'm looking forward to the rest of these episodes. And now it's time for listener mail where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 ministry study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to Compassion.com backslash Lisa to choose a child to sponsor today. Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, what is the Healthy Conversation contract that you've mentioned before? I'm going to pass it off to our resident counselor of the podcast, Jim Kress, to answer. Well, the Healthy Conversations contract is simply that, a contract for relationships that I came up with. And then Lisa and I added to it to get very specifically, both biblically and practically. Unfortunately, every relationship you have with a pet, with your kids, with a spouse, with a friend, every relationship has a contract. Most of us just aren't getting clear about the fact that we have a contract. It's like this I will tolerate. This is okay with me in a relationship. This is not okay, especially in the more intimate relationship, such as a marriage. The more intimate the relationship, the more rules there need to be. So we just outlined a bunch of things. There's, I don't know, 15 so different items in there that are based in research that are very practical and biblically based. And if you go to the show notes, you'll be able to have that. The idea is, especially in a marriage, is to get that and begin to work through, take the guts of what we've done, all the points, and then literally sit down and write out your own contract. It'd be really cool. You could have that in your mind with your kids or with a good friend. Now, what do you mean with a good friend? While there are people who say, you know, I've gotten really clear about this. It's not okay that you text me. Even though you're a good friend, it's not okay that you text me at 2 a.m. Part of that is we have to get really, really clear. And if you want to even, in like the Healthy Conversations contract, have good boundaries. Get the book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. But you've heard me say that a boundary without a consequence is a mere suggestion. So a lot of these are not preachy in the Healthy Conversations contract. I'm not trying to control you. I'm saying, here's what I need to stay safe in this relationship. And that contract and each item in the contract might change. Clarity, again, what happens in vagueness stays in vagueness. In all of our relationships, we want extreme, healthy clarity. Thanks for listening to today's episode. I'd love to personally invite you to help share these Therapy and Theology episodes with even more listeners by giving a financial gift to Proverbs 31 Ministries today. Therapy and Theology offers guidance that women can trust, not quick opinions and not noise. When they're searching, Therapy and Theology provides biblical truth that will help them take a steady next step, even in the most uncertain situations. That's the mission behind this work, and I want you to be a part. Go to Proverbs31.org backslash give now to give today.