Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus, including this episode, and I'm the host of this podcast. And this is our seventh bonus episode. These are more focused one-on-one conversations as opposed to the roundtables on the regular podcasts and they're often cast and crew who aren't able to physically be in Los Angeles which is where we record and that's definitely true with today's guest another returning champion from Better Call Saul first as our a camera operator and then as a director of photography and you've definitely heard him mentioned on the podcast before so without further ado please welcome our guest director of photography Paul Donnakey. Hey Chris nice to be here. It's great to have you paul thanks for making the time so i don't remember if we talked about this but i see here that before you are one of our directors of photography you are a camera operator for us but also did you shoot formula one yes i did as a it was a documentary kind of deal and i was very young it was for a cigarette company basically and they had their annual conference every year they sponsored one of the cars so it was like a little a 15 minute film for them to show their conference But we had a year's going around the world filming it for them. So it was and it was every two weeks you go off somewhere else. It was great fun. I wasn't into Formula One when I first started. But after a couple of years of doing that, I really got into it. It was great fun. Great fun to do. I mean, that's so topical now with the Formula One movie, which took them years and years and years. It seems like if you're going to shoot race cars, even though they drive by fast, it takes a long time to shoot it. yeah I mean we were just we had a 16 mil camera we had a pass to go anywhere we wanted on the track or in those days we literally would walk across the track and crazy stuff like that and um I go in the pit lane and all of that stuff during the race shooting all the testing and met all the drivers got to know all the drivers the first year I did it it was for Lotus and Senna was driving for Lotus at the time so we got I got to know Edwin quite well and you know some other great drivers. I mean, Monaco race, we had a boat in the harbor. We just, you know, it was just, it was wonderful fun. I was going to make a joke about how that must have prepared you to shoot Carol Sterka in her house or in Albuquerque. But with this episode with 107, you were finding all kinds of new ways to shoot cars, both Carol and Manusos. There's so much driving in this episode, so many montages first of all i love the photography that you did for all of it but this episode in particular every time we would get dailies it was such a joy to dive into it the hardest challenge on this this episode really was when not to shoot actually we went to the canary islands with adam and jen and everybody and we we searched all these locations and there were so many good ones we eventually paired them down and ended up with some great locations and that little mg i mean i asked very early in preparation any chance of having a convertible mg rather than a hard top because getting a camera inside a small little mg like that was going to be tough but and luckily the guys came up with the uh convertible and we could shoot around the car and you could see you can see manuso you know out there in the sun driving along I think that helped a lot. So that's really interesting. So when you read the script, at what point did you get brought in that they were going to have this MG? And the fact that you, that's, I didn't know that you were so instrumental in making sure it was the exact type of MG that we got. Vince and Jane, I think, had decided basically, this is, and Adam as well, I'm sure, had decided this is the kind of car we want. And they did look at hardtop options. But, you know, I put my two cents in and said, please, can we have a conversable? And then luckily the guys went with it in the end. And I love that car. So you're saying like where part of it was where to shoot, where not to shoot. Can you talk about some of the challenges of shooting in the jungle, like on La Palma or in the Canary Islands? I know light is always an issue as a DP. Like, what was it like shooting there? I mean, it was great fun. We had a Spanish crew who were fantastic. They're a really good crew. rich sickler was the first ad and me and rich did a fantastic job as well of scheduling stuff because we did have some challenges and obviously i've always got my requirements that you know schedule wise is where the sun is and all of that stuff which sometimes can be achieved and sometimes it can't but rich did a fantastic job of slotting it all in and getting it all in the order that i wanted basically so we had the best sunlight and some of the locations we was down a little one manned path basically we had to carry equipment box by box down through the jungle down into this little valley where me and adam went on the scout we said well this area we could probably do five or six of the vignettes in this one little area so we found this spot which you know had a waterfall it had rocks it had trees But it was a challenge for everybody to get the stuff down there and get it back out again. And, you know, we had limited daylight, obviously. One of the scenes we did down there, I did it day for night because we didn't have any night stuff in the jungle. So I shot one that, it was daylight, but we made it look like night in the camera. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the driving stuff, you know, was tricky because these little roads around the Palma in the Canaries, they're used all the time. There's one road around the island. So we had to block the road off for a few minutes so we could shoot and then let all the traffic through. But there's some beautiful scenery there. And like I said, it was really hard to choose which ones not to shoot because there were so many options we had. But I think we chose the right ones. And I'm happy that everybody thinks the episode looks cool. Oh, I love it. And it was the kind of thing where, you know, when somebody would come by the office, even before we were finished editing it, Vince would say, hey, come take a look at this. Yeah, he was really excited about it, as were we all. So as a DP, like what are the challenges as far as shooting a montage? Like there's a lot of montages in three and in five and in seven. In three, there's loading up sprouts. In five, there's Carol putting the pavers over Helen's grave, which has that amazing, as Gordon called it, the well of souls shot with the sun. In seven, it's like nonstop montages, especially throughout South America. How do you as a DP, as far as you already said, scheduling and time, how do you work with the director and the assistant director when you see stuff like that in a script? What is the process for you as a DP of making sure that all of that stuff actually happens and happens so well? Well, my first priority really is to make sure that we have enough coverage. I mean, as you know, as an editor, you can't have too much coverage. Absolutely. In Spain, we had limited time. So we would get as many shots as we could for each little section as we could. And, you know, the daylight is a challenge. You know, you only have so many hours of daylight. But as a DP, you think, well, these two shots tell the story. Let's move on. And if we need three shots on the next section, we'll get three. Or one shot can work. And obviously the director, well, Adam's great skill is he knows what he wants before he gets there. He knows pretty much how he wants to cut it in his head. And he knows if he's got the shot. He knows if he's got the scene. So he is definitely extremely efficient. Yes, absolutely. And I mean, that's great. he knows what he's going to use, you know, and what tells the story. There was one scene in, I remember with Adam, we were in a church. The sun was in the right place. It was, I was going to light the church. I had 18 big lights outside the church, ready to go. Waylon or Gaff Adam all ready. But the sun was perfect in the church at the time. We had a bit of smoke in there to give it the shafts of light, but the sun was in the absolutely perfect spot. Adam, who'd been shooting quite quickly for the last few weeks, I said to him, Adam, you've got five minutes to shoot this scene. and and i said you can do it and you'll get three shots and you've got five minutes and or we'll have to bring all the lights in and start lighting it and he rose to the challenge said oh great i love that idea let's just shoot it so we rushed in there and we shot it and i think that just turned out pretty nice oh it's so beautiful yeah i mean yeah three shots and i think we used we used all but one angle and one of them was an a camera to b camera we used one I think the A camera. Yeah, I love that stuff is so beautiful. That's amazing. I mean, well, I think that speaks also to your knowledge. And I can't remember if Adam talked about that on the podcast or if he talked about it just in real life to me telling that story about how you just kind of were like, OK, the sun's there. The sun's going to be there. OK, go. and gordon tells a story about you as well talking about the sun and saying this is when you can shoot and you got to shoot now with that well of soul shot in 105 where carol is at the car and it's on what looks to be like a 80 000 millimeter lens from miles away and i think i think it was on a it was on a 400 i think on the end of a zoom i mean that was always going to be at the end of day And we were lucky that day that there was no clouds and it was a good atmosphere. But the one I really nailed down with Gordon was his I Am Cuba shot. Right. At the beginning of the exodus in 105 from the hospital. Live. Correct. Yeah. I mean, we did big rehearsals for that stuff. And me and Gordon had worked out the shot prior to everybody turning up. And then I told Matt, the camera operator, you know, roughly what the shot was. He practiced it the day before. as I said you've got to shoot this by 8 a.m because otherwise you'll have a crane shadow I mean it wasn't about you know it was literally about getting a crane shadow across everybody so another 10 minutes and we got it you know we got it in time but that wasn't about how it looked really that was more about the physicality of the sun will just be behind the crane big shadow and everybody and the unusable So that why we practiced it That speaks to your experience too just to know if somebody just starting out they wouldn't necessarily understand the sun in that way. I mean, the great gaffer in the sky, basically, sort of working with him. And we talked to Marshall a little bit on a bonus podcast earlier in the season, but I'd love to hear from you how you've approached this show differently from Better Call Saul. And we have a different aspect ratio. We have these Kodachrome looks. The tone overall, I mean, it is such a different show, even though much of it is in Albuquerque and much of it also stars Ray Sehorne. What has been your approach as far as doing it differently from Saul? Well, the interiors of Carol's house, I kind of wanted that to be a very low-key, soft light environment during the day. I mean, the practical lights at night kind of govern the way you are. But during the day, the curtains are closed. You know, she's blocked herself off from the world. So I just wanted to be very soft. Whereas on Saw, we'd probably have a slightly more hard light coming in and stuff. And I wanted to be a little bit more observational as well. So we'd shoot from other rooms into other rooms, which the set allowed. Denise has built this set. We can look from one room to the other. And I thought that sort of observational style would be interesting. As if the others are always watching. they're always watching her so i kind of wanted to sort of mirror that a little the camera's watching this person in her house but the others are doing that as well you know wherever she goes whatever she's doing you know she's got this drone following around you know but generally speaking i mean a lot of these places shoot themselves in a way like sprouts for example you know it's a supermarket all the lights are on at night they're off but you know that sort of dictates how it's going to look in a way so i mean you choose you choose the way you light stuff depending on what the scene is and what story you want to tell, really. The agri-jet, where she goes in and finds all the food stuff, it had to be frightening, you know. So that sort of dictates the way you like stuff. And the LUT that Vince and Marshall created, and Dave, the three of them created this amazing LUT as well, which gives it a great look, all these highlighted colors and stuff. Dave being Dave Cole, the colorist at Photochem. Yeah. If you listen back to the El Camino podcast that we did for the Breaking Bad movie, we talked to Dave. He's got this great accent. Do you continue to collaborate with Dave as it goes along? Because you're involved in the color. when you guys provide us with the final cut we go to the call it the grading session or color timing session and i'm in there with dave for a couple of weeks just going through every shot darkening lightning changing little bits and pieces you know nowadays you can do so much in color but um the base has to be there you have to get the right base for everything and then you can tweak little bits and pieces you know you can make a little an area of a room look a bit darker or brighter or bring up a face if it's too dark or to bring it down if it's too bright. I mean, it's subtle changes, but it's a very, very important process. And Dave's fantastic. You put little vignettes around things and you tweak it, you know, to get the final product. Something that we talk about in the office too, with you, with Dave, with Marshall, with, I mean, really so many parts of the team is that it's never just about this is going to look cool or isn't that beautiful? It's always about approaching it from, how does this make sense for the story? Like, how does this enhance the story, tell the story? Yeah, old Manuso says, has traveled a long way. So you need the time change. You know, you need to tell that the days have changed and he's moved on. Obviously you do that with hair and makeup as well and the condition he's in. But, you know, you have to get those evening scenes in. So you know that it's the next day and he's stuck at night, you know. So that's all about, you know, moving him along over a few days. And you help that story with the lighting sometimes. I did have a question, you know, with this season, the first season of Pluribus, you were working with a lot of people, Gordon three times and then Adam Bernstein. But, you know, we've heard on other podcasts, but Ray Sehorne, you know, she was a first time director on an episode of Better Call Saul. And she just talked about the great pleasure that she had working with you. And I just wondered, what do you look for in a collaborator when somebody is coming in, a first-time director? I think we have a lot of aspiring filmmakers who listen to this podcast as well. And what do you look for when somebody is coming in? And how do you approach working with somebody who's doing it for the first time, whether first time ever or the first time with this group of people? My first premise is that you're there to help that director make a film for them. It's their film, they're making it. So you're there just to help them to do that and to do the best you can for them. So they have the vision that they wanted from the start. So I mean, all directors have strengths and weaknesses and any weakness that you see, especially in a new time director, you just try and help them out. If they not sure about how to block a scene or how many shots they need for the edit I mean I always think the more shots the better the more you can get in the better And I mean I know Vince does nice to do a lot of stuff in one And with Ray, we did a couple of scenes in not one shot, but we covered parts of the story in one shot occasionally. But yeah, you've just got to help them out when whatever they need. One of the great strengths a lot of directors is being able to work with the actors and get performances out of them. That's not something I do. I can see a good performance when I see it, But all the other technical stuff, I will always try and help out a director because ultimately it's their film, you know. That's great. You know, one other scene I just wanted to hear you talk about is in this episode in 107. That's when Carol goes and has that solo dinner. She gets all dressed up and puts on the player piano. And it's on this great rooftop restaurant at the top of the Hotel Chaco. Yeah. Talk about shooting that because the lighting is just perfect. The dusk, the dark, it's just like the perfect time. Talk about shooting that scene. That was one that I said to Adam, you know, when we go up here, it would be lovely to see the mountains. It's a night scene. It was set as a night scene. But I said to him, it'd be great to see the mountains, at least at the beginning of the scene. So we decided that we should get our first couple of wider shots during that golden hour, you know, the dusk period when he could see the mountains. And if you look at the scene, obviously, later on in the scene, there's you know it takes all night to shoot this so obviously you lose the mountains at some point but we kind of did the wide shot so you can see them and we put in lights you know we put a load of lights around the edges and we put lights in the ceiling and stuff to light Ray up and so I mean we lit the whole place but you know with great help from Wayland and his pre-rigging team they get in there and they do all their stuff and you know I sort of say roughly what we're after and I say I wouldn't mind some lights around this balcony and I need a light above Ray and but yeah we wanted to see the mountain so and it was scheduled again so we could do the first couple of wide shots we were in there an hour or two earlier got a lot of tracks laid down got it all ready and at the right moment we switched the camera on you know but yeah that was a great scene i love that scene and funny too in a way oh yeah and sad and and it's so great about this show it's it's all of those things you know paul you make it all sound so easy you're definitely it's like just turn the camera on and did it at the right time but there's just so much that goes into it and i know i'm grateful for everything that you bring to the table before the camera even rolls and then once you like you said you turn the camera on at the right time and you just get those great images yeah um i mean any story any movie it's you know 95 script and acting and 5 everything else but for me it's 95 prep you have to get in there and before you turn up, you know, exactly what you're going to do, you know, and how you're going to do it. Things change, obviously, during an evening's filming or a day's filming, but you fundamentally know what you're going to do and you prep for it. And that's, that's crucial. Does a director ever, especially for these montages, does the director ever come when you're, you know, you're doing the prep and I imagine you're with the director and probably the assistant director and they say, okay, I want to do this shot, this shot, this shot, this shot. How do you tell them you're not going to be able to get all those shots? because we won't have time does that happen you don't tell them you never say i mean saying no to a director is not the great idea i mean i mean what what you can do is you can guide them in other directions you know you say well that sounds great but how about if we do this would that encompass those two moments you want to capture you know if i if you know you won't have enough time in the day you say well this if we did it like this maybe we can encapsulate everything you want but it was that would save us having to do x y and z you know and just put it out there and see what they say you know if they like the idea or not it's a negotiation process and that's something else that can happen in prep so that's and and experience of our directors they all know anyway what you can achieve i mean i mean adam's been doing it all his life and gordon's done loads of stuff and you know the and vince obviously i did a few episodes with and saw and they all know what they're doing. They know what you can get and what you can't get in a day. For sure. Well, awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing some of your process on this show. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Chris. And thank you for having me. It's been fun. All right. Thanks so much to Paul Donachy for joining us on this bonus episode for 107. And thank you for listening to this bonus episode of Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed and watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer, it's Nicholas Sy. Theme music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeest, and Nicholas Sy. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McCaleb. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. you
