Oh, welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. And this is our ninth bonus episode. These are typically, usually one-on-one conversations, often cast and crew aren't in Los Angeles. where we record the podcast, but not today. Well, some people are not in Los Angeles, but we have two guests on this bonus podcast, and I'm super excited to get into it. So without further ado, please welcome our guests, executive producer and co-writer of this episode, Allison Tatlock. Hello. And for the first time ever on the podcast, Kusumayu herself, Dorinka Arones. Hello. Hello. Hello. Thank you guys for coming on the show. This is awesome. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much. Well, I'm just happy to see that it seems like you're unjoined in real life. Like you haven't joined the others in real life. That's exciting to me. Or have you? I don't know. Maybe we are joined and you don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. Wait, Allison, you're also joined? Yeah. This is a bombshell. Are we breaking news on this podcast? This is great. It was a job requirement. I guess you didn't get the memo. Zorinka, how did you get cast on this? And did I hear correctly you were a film student at NYU? Yes. So I was studying film and TV at NYU. I just graduated. But I did the audition during my last year. So I was doing my short film thesis. But at the same time, I did the audition. that was really surprising to me because I have never really found such requirements that really fit me, but also very specific to a Peruvian young girl that speaks Quechua. So it really got my attention. And I was also, at that time, it was the summer, I was doing a residency in Cusco. So learning more Quechua. So it really felt it was the time. It was almost destiny for me. And we were so incredibly fortunate and excited to find you, Dorinka. And I think you had to take time off from school, didn't you, in order to do it? Yes. It's really funny because I tried explaining my professors without really giving all the details. My main professors, but they understood and I tried to explain to them that this is related to my career as well. So they said yes, and of course, later I catch up with everything. Very cool. And just so you know, Vince always goes out of his way to point out that you're a filmmaker, an aspiring director, in addition to being an actor. So we're all very aware of that. It's exciting. Thank you so much. I mean, Vince also graduated from NYU, so that's something that I wanted to tell him. And the last time I saw him, that I graduated, just felt really nice. Congratulations. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. And you're also at least partially responsible, right, for helping us find Anais. They were the singer or the lead singer in the village in that fantastic, I find it haunting song, the longer it goes on. Are they a friend of yours or are they somebody that you know in the community? How did that happen? Yes, so we met. There is this Quechua kind of Raimi celebration that happens in the U.S. kind of one time per year that reunites the Andean diaspora from different states in the U.S. So we went to Harvard to have this celebration. And that's where I met Anais about like four years ago. They were super talented and they did focus a lot on doing Quechua songs. So I thought of them for this opportunity. Thank you for that. Yeah. Thank you for making that connection for us. They were so awesome. Allison, so did you just have a deep kind of rich well of knowledge about Quechua culture? Of course. I have deep knowledge about every culture, Chris. Or did you work with any advisors? No, of course. We had advisors, right? Yeah. We had two very helpful advisors. We had Doris out of University of Colorado Boulder, where my husband happened to go to college. Shout out CU Boulder. I'm a big fan. And then on set with us, we had Irma, who sat with me in Video Village and gave feedback, particularly on pronunciation. Right, Dorinka? It's challenging, very specific. Irma was helpful with that. And no, none of us in the room when we started were experts in the culture. And it, of course, was a collaboration with our Genius Design team led by Denise Pizzini. We have to give her a shout out every time we talk about the show because she created a village from scratch. There was no village. She built a village. It took a village to make the village, right? It was quite astounding. And our whole art department who designed it so specifically and beautifully. I will say that I was particularly excited about this specific setting because coincidentally my daughter started college in Peru in rural Peru So she spent her first semester of college in Peru. And she had recently returned with so many incredible experiences and stories. She lived with a family outside of Urubamba, and she, you know, had learned a little bit of Quechua. She had volunteered at a school for children with special needs, and she had a really incredible experience. It just so happened that these two things coincided for me in my life, and I suddenly felt immersed, extra immersed, both on a family side and a professional side in the beauty of this culture. That is so cool. I didn't know about that. Darinka, can you talk a little bit, did you work with Nito, our movement choreographer? Because, you know, this is the big moment where you're the first of the unjoined to get joined voluntarily with consent by, you know, almost a demand. And once that happens, there's a noticeable physical change in you. Do you want to talk at all about how that worked? yes it is so wonderful since I started watching the show everything made sense to me so that specific moment also made a lot of sense to me Nito was amazing he was super strict he kept giving me feedback and I tried my best it was very mentally and physically exhausting but at the same time It was like I was just really immersed in whatever was happening to my body. At a certain moment, I really felt it, especially being in New Mexico and with the entire environment and setup. It really felt real for me at a certain point. He was super helpful. We compared it sometimes to the sequence in Vegas, right, which similarly has a big group of people who are pretending, essentially, for the sake of their one old schooler in Vegas, Mr. Diabate. and in this case Kusumayu, sort of enacting the world as it used to be. Yeah, cosplaying as regular people. Exactly, to make a beloved old schooler feel as comfortable as possible or as pleased as possible. And then the second she changes the job of the group and of you, right, Dorinka? This is where Nito comes in, was to immediately drop the facade and go into what I would call more of sprouts mode, which is pleasantly synchronized movement where everyone is connected and not robotic. It's really interesting to see this happening in the Andes because, well, in real life, there is a huge importance in the collectiveness and the community there. So people work together a lot and it's very important. Community is a sense. And it felt very interesting seeing everyone. Well, of course, we are not the others, but there was a similarity in there that really brought me joy. It was truly beautiful. I love that. It's like the connectivity in the culture itself. I mean, in that way, it's almost the opposite of the sequence that we do in Vegas, where it's all about conflict and drama. Yes, yes. Right? Winning. So the contrast is much harsher in that case. In this case, it's a little bit more nuanced. Yeah, absolutely. What was it like working with Elena and Jennifer? So Elena played Kuzumayo's auntie and Jennifer played your cousin. Yes. We are truly, right now, we're besties. We have a group chat where we talk about everything that's happening because we don't live in the same states. We're really like family. During this process of learning the script, everything, during the entire shooting process, we probably met for like two months. But we felt really close. And right now I think it's the best relationship that I have that I got from Pluribus. And they are super nice and they are super talented. And I think something that I really appreciate about them, and I think us in general, that we have really the best intentions in portraying these characters in terms of the language, Quechua, our identity. It really means a lot to us. And we care a lot how we're being portrayed. And we really try our best to do this and represent well. so I'm so grateful so grateful that I was able to do it with with Elena and Jennifer that's so I love that how come we don't have a group chat Allison oh are you not on the group you're not on the group chat I'm so sorry this is how you learn you're not on the group chat this is devastating it's very it's life imitating art you're the Carol I guess Oh, no. No, not at all. We love you. Speaking of devastating, Allison, like we said, this is the first old schooler, unjoined to join. Why was the choice made for it to be Kusumayu? Well, that was established in the early episodes. Vince had already created the character of Kusumayu. And throughout the work that we did in the writers room for season one, we talked, you know on and off about which one of our old schoolers might get changed at some point what that might look like We could go to a completely different environment and sort of surprise the audience or disorient everybody in a fun way. When would that make sense? And we just had this kind of tickling us in the back of our collective minds. It's impossible to remember who pitched this precise idea, but we landed upon what if we went to Peru and the teaser of the finale seemed like the perfect moment to experience what that would be like to have one of our old schoolers voluntarily. And we established in the beginning that Kusamayo is the one, of course, who longs to be with her family. So it felt right that she would be the one to turn. Kusamayo, of the characters that we meet in the beginning, is the youngest, quite a young person of our English speakers. We do establish that there's a little girl, but we don't meet her yet. As the mother of a young woman, formerly girl, it seems very lonely to have, you know, you've been with your family, you've been in your community, which as Dorinka was saying, is culturally a very connected community. And then you're the odd person out. I identified with that longing a lot. that you would want to be with the people who loved you and cared for you your whole life and be part of that. Yes. And I even relate to Kusimayu. Probably all do the same thing. I'm really close to my family. So it just felt right. And for Kusimayu, I feel it feels right to her as well. The people that you spend the most time with. And they seem happy. It's not like you're joining something terrible. I mean, I think that the fact that you just said, Dorinka, that you would probably make the same choice will make the boss very happy. Because what we really hoped with all of this is that there would be genuine philosophical debate. And I was sometimes in the minority, let's just say, in the writer's room, kind of not saying, yes, I would join and give up my individuality. I don't think I would. However, I see what is tempting about it. there is a peace and a beauty and a release of neurosis and struggle and violence and division that comes with the joining and I can see the upside. You know, it's like in episode two, that great moment when Kusumayo, when she's like, doesn't it sound wonderful? And she's like, what are you talking about? They're like, how did you, how have you not asked? How have you not asked what it's like? I mean, for a writer, Carol, a little incurious at times, just a little kind of like focused on the things that are in her head. Perhaps. We're all evolving. I think maybe one of the saddest moments of this teaser, besides just this sort of ominousness of this massive change that's happening, is when Kusumayu lets all the animals go, including that baby goat. Really, the star of the show is a baby goat. I mean, let's face it. Can you talk about, first of all, how do I get myself one of those baby goats? That sounds really fantastic. And what was it like working? I mean, everybody always says kids and animals, right? That's the hardest to work with. But talk about working with that goat. Yeah, the goats were so cute. They were like our emotional support animals, right? Dorinka, we all wanted to pet the goats. And you probably could get yourself a baby goat, Chris, but you then would also have to have a grown-up goat. Like you can't just, you know, rent the baby. Or you could go to one of those yoga classes where the goats, you know, get on top of you and walk on your back. That seems like the way to do it. That baby goat was kind of a genius because, and there was a wonderful, of course, goat wrangler trainer on set who was helping with every moment of the baby goat. And that was very helpful. When that little goat jumped up on the seat, like when Dorinka's sitting on the stump, petting the goat, and then you put the goat down and you stand up and the little goat jumped up on your seat. That was improvised. Yes. Good job, baby goat. Yeah. Oh, my God. That baby goat was doing crowd work. Yes. Incredible stuff. However, at the end, when the goats are released, the baby goat did have to hit its mark. That was not improvised. That moment just goes by. And I don't know that the casual viewer would understand just how miraculous it is that a baby goat, I mean, like gave a performance. I mean, that is a legitimate performance that that goat is giving. Yes. And I want to give a shout out to Tamara Brock, who was our amazing goat wrangler, who really helped choreograph. Like we had Nito choreographing for the folks, the humans, but not a goat expert. Our human wrangler. Right. So we also had our goat choreography expert. So in the final moment when Kusumayu opens the gate and the goats wander out, Tamara was just off camera and sort of helping guide baby goat to find its mark. And that's why the baby hits the mark and then kind of looks around and kind of looks around. And I think the baby goat does look a little bit anxious, a little nervous. So it plays as where is Kusumayu? Where is my friend? Right Right Yeah I hope people don think it AI because that was an amazing performance Good point Dorinka Yeah no AI Nor is it VFX That real I mean, there are VFX in those shots because we added some mountains. We extended tree lines. We added, especially in the wider shots, we added several structures. But the goat, that is all natural. My first time to holding a baby goat. Oh, nice. But it was kind of took out all my nervousness or anxious emotions at that moment. I wanted to stay there and sit there and eat there. It was a conversation in the room that we could, in a way, use, let's just say exploit, the sweetness of a young animal to kind of put a finer point on a complicated philosophical moment of on the one hand, the people are joined and happy and calm and relaxed. The animals are freed, which you could look at as a positive, depending on your perspective. And yet nobody will care for them anymore. Right. Especially for domesticated animals, that can be a death sentence. Yeah. We do talk about in our Albuquerque world that if there are dogs who are particularly attached to specific individuals, as we say, that the dogs can hang around. So we don't know for sure what happens to Baby Goat, but it does land as a kind of poignant moment of separation. And a very quiet moment too. That is something that I think about a lot. And you see it in Six and you see it in this. When the show stops, when they stop pretending for the old schoolers, the unjoined their lives because they're not talking because they're all connected it's a very quiet existence yes exactly right so that was the contrast that gordon was going for in the sequences that they're singing and there's clapping and they're you know there's sort of in this case joyful soundscape and then as soon as she's changed none of that is necessary anymore so it's a certain kind of a loss but with the gain of we're all one if that is a gain yeah Well, I mean, who knows what that experience is like. I guess part of Dorinka does. The Kusumayo part of you. Yes. Yes, I do. But she's not going to tell us. I can see in her eyes she's playing it pretty close to the vest. I will say I'm pretty sure that in the script, the last line of the teaser is, Ma. You're like, off the baby goat, li ting. Ma. I love this teaser. It was very challenging to edit. Why don't you talk about that a little since you did that? Yes, please. Do you remember what like one particular challenge was in terms of the editing? Especially with that, it's all about whose head we're in. I mean, that's often the case with editing. It's like whose perspective are we approaching this from? And I mean, it's seemingly it's very clear whose perspective we're in because it's the only perspective we're really being privileged, an unjoined person. But how do you tell the story of this entire village and what is going on, the mechanics of it and just the movements of this crate? And then once it got into the singing, that was probably the most challenging thing, because in order to use shots where you can see everybody singing, you're fairly limited as far as which pieces you can use when. And so it's about picking those moments. In fact, there's a really great closer shot of Anais singing. And it was one that we really struggled to work in because we really wanted to give them their due. To feature them. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was about finding it. There was like only one possible moment that we could do it without disrupting the flow of the story while making it part of the story, basically, and not just here's a shot of somebody singing. I'm really happy that we were able to get that in there because they were so instrumental in helping with that song and the singing is really great and they were kind of almost like a band leader, right? Yeah, choir leader. I appreciate you all taking time on a Sunday. Thanks for chatting with us. Absolutely. Thank you so much. All right, thank you so much to Dorinka Aronis and Allison Tatlock for joining us on this bonus episode and thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. I'm not quite sure if this is the final podcast of the first season or if we're going to do some more of these, but, you know, stay tuned to this feed. Keep following it and you'll get all the updates right here on this feed. And watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer, it's Nicholas Tsai. Theme music by Dave Porter Associate producers are Alana Hoffman Justin Verbeest And Nicholas Tsai Executive producers are Jen Carroll And me, your host, Chris McCaleb Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts
