Sober Sex w/ Kim Litton | Szn. 3 Ep. 15

Hi, it's Dr. Jen Kennedy. I'm a sexologist and couples therapist. The Pleasure Project podcast is about sex and relationships. So this includes discussions on desire, dysfunction, dissatisfaction, exploration of all things sex related. So sometimes I'll do toy reviews and we'll look at trends. And sometimes I'll also enlist other experts. We'll increase your insight and enhance your pleasure. So tune in. Have you had sober sex? Well, imagine if that is your only option going forward, because plenty of people in recovery are in that boat. And that is the topic today is sex and intimacy in recovery. So in this episode, I sit down with Kim Lytton. She's an LCSW and we talk about that because plenty of people are in recovery and attempting to have relationships. So dating as well as long term relationships that they're already in, but trying to re approach sex and intimacy is a whole different ballgame, right? Is looking at what does that involve, what gets tripped up, the trickiness of expressing your needs and negotiating with another person and understanding how hard it is to be in that space. So we're going to unpack it all and look at that with a clinical eye. So tune in. Welcome back. My guest today is Kimberly Lytton. She is a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex addiction therapist. She has an extensive history of treating women with alcoholism, addiction, eating disorders and sex addiction. She developed and led an intensive outpatient program for women with substance use disorder. She then went on to be clinical director, treatment programs for treatment programs that specialize in substance use disorder and eating disorders. She is the author of I Do It For Her, a memoir of discovery and redemption from sex, love and substances. Kim has a private practice in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So Kim and I recently met at a conference and I attended her presentation and I just loved her. And I just said, you have to be on my podcast. I think this is such an interesting cross-section, I guess, of the work that we do and looking at intimacy in recovery. And I thought that's a topic that a lot of people need to hear about because they struggle with it. And it's, yeah, it's important. So thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for having me. I know and I just adore you too. I remember us meeting in the coffee shop and us having the same shoes. And so we're forever friends now. I know. I was like, I like her outfit. Come on. Yeah. So let's just start with, you know, kind of how do you come into this work? I mean, I know you wrote this book, which is so brave of your own story of recovery. So if you want to briefly kind of talk about that. Sure. You know, in 2004, I came to Florida on an airplane to treatment. My parents put me on an airplane and sent me off to treatment and for drugs and alcohol. I was addicted to oxy cotton and cocaine at the time. And I, you know, I was an addict. I was a junkie, basically, for lack of better term. And what I noticed when I came out of and got into recovery is so many other women are like me, you know, and I felt so seen and I felt so when I went to meetings, 12 step meetings and things. And I was, and I felt like I came out of a lot of shame from doing that because in addiction, I think women are just more shameful to have an addiction, first of all, and then for, you know, to get clean and sober. It's almost, I don't know, like, I guess my family had a hard time understanding it and everything. So and then what I noticed as well is I just started, you know, immediately dating and wanting that, that excitement again. But I had no idea how to do it because I was sober, you know, and like, I'd always just done this high and just navigated my dating world in a, in a stupor, basically, or you know, in an altered state. So that became an issue then, you know, I didn't know it at the time, of course, but that became an issue, you know, was met my husband. And then we had, we had terrible time, like communicating and stuff because we were both clean. Well, and I think also, if you've got a history of using substance, then you've probably got some arrested development in the social emotional department. You typically aren't going to have a lot of built and established. Exactly. Remember, they told us in treatment and rehab, they told us that the, the age that we started using substances regularly is the age we were, that was the age that we were starting from, basically, emotionally, that's the development we had gotten to was, so it was 14 for me, right? And so I'm 14 years old as a 26 year old in recovery. And yes, every, like so many emotions were arrested. Yeah. So it's like you're trying to have a grown up life with all the responsibilities of an adult and a married person functioning as a 14 year old. Yeah. 100%. Yes. Well, and let's talk about in general, too, just the intimacy difficulties that most people have in their deep in substance use, because I mean, you've been a clinical director, right? You've seen people come through treatment centers, as well as your own experience. And the challenges with close relationships, not just in partnership, but even in friendships, right? It's pretty common. Yeah, totally. Intimacy is, is so hard in addiction. Usually we, you know, it depends on the level of your addiction. Addiction is progressive. So, you know, if you're in the beginning stages of addiction, it may, you may still be functioning somewhat, but in the later stages of addiction is, is where it takes a toll on intimacy. So let's talk about sexual intimacy first. An opioid addict, all of the, all of the pleasure in the brain is towards the substance. So there's no more sexual pleasure. It's very hard for an opioid addict to get aroused sexually, very hard, especially for a woman. It's very hard for sedatives, as well. I'm losing my words here. Like Xanax, Benzos, I'm sorry, for Benzos as well. In the later stages of addiction, it's very hard for them to be sexually aroused as well. So it very much affects marriages. And then let's go back a little bit, even before the sex is the intimacy, the emotional intimacy, they're just not present for their relationships. They are focused on, and I should put it on we, because we are more focused on the most important thing to us is the drug or the substance. Right. There's just a level of distraction, a level of seeking that makes it so there's a, there's a third entity in the relationship. Yes, it's literally like I've heard spouses say, it's literally like they're having an affair on me because of the substance is the other person in the marriage, you know, or the other person in the relationship, right? So it is like you are fighting a substance, though, that's so that's hijacked the brain so much. So the attention, the focus, the everything is on the getting the drugs, the seeking the drugs, the paying for the drug, you know, and so it just, it kills intimacy completely. Yeah. And typically, anyone entering like a 12 step program, for example, is going to have the suggestion to not date for a year, which freaks a lot of people out. They're like, why not? Why? That's not my problem. Like, why can't I date? Why is that a suggestion? So I love that you asked that. The suggestion is because when we are on substances, that is so dopamine is a pleasure receptor, right? In our brain, when we're on substances for a long period of time, our dopamine kind of stops working, right? Our natural dopamine, because the substances are creating it, like are doing that job for the brain. So when we get off of drugs, the dopamine levels are very low in their brain. So we are, we don't, we may not want to, recovering addicts may not want to use drugs or substances, but they definitely want to feel something again. They want to feel high and or pleasure, you know, and, and that's just a human being. So our next thing available to us, especially in treatment, if you're in, in a treatment environment where you're close to people and you're hearing their intimate stories, it's like that little dopamine hit of getting attention or getting validation from someone else is, is a really, really easy to attach to someone and then just kind of switch your and also then abandon your recovery process to just be in like lust, right? Completely abandoned your recovery process. And that's, you know, that's for all, for all process addictions to is, is we can kind of fall into that. But like a love or relationship type of issue, I think it's very, very, it's more prominent in the, in recovery, because that's the closest thing is the companionship from other people. And so we'll typically fall into love or and get hurt very easily or, or so on and so forth, if we do date before that year. So it takes our brain to get back to the brain chemistry. It takes our brain a long time to naturally produce the dopamine again, you know, to be to have our brain whole, it takes our brain several months to heal. And then so that's basically why they say, wait a year. Plus, we're going to be getting our self esteem back, we're going to be building self love and self worth. I mean, we're going from a shame hole, you know, to, you know, building self worth and self value. Right. Because typically, we're also seeing those folks in early recovery not having good boundaries, not being able to exactly set limits, not knowing what's mine and what's yours. And the shame is just so close because they're cleaning, cleaning up all the chaos of, of the recent addictive. Exactly. They're cleaning up all the chaos. Yes. Yeah. So how has your journey shaped the way you approach this work as a therapist? Because I know that like so much of our work is, is kind of informing and also sitting with clients, it gives us new information all the time. Right. We're learning constantly. But like, how is that informed? What you do? I know I love this. I love this work. I have a passion for this work as you do as well, Jen, I know. But how does it help me? And how does it, well, how does it affect the work that I do? I think I do have a little bit of a unique experience because I have, I have been through the pits of addiction, come out of the pits of addiction, you know, gone to a lot of love and sex to kind of get that excitement, understand. So I understand, I feel like a lot of what women are going through. But most of all, I think I understand the shame of being just not having morals a certain time in my life and not having strong values or morals and really going against all of my values and morals for a substance. And then kind of coming out of that and helping other women or other people come out of that to find their self worth. I feel like when you've had the experience of doing so yourself, it's easier and more personal to do that with a client. Yeah. Yeah, it's like almost like you're coming from, I mean, I think there's something so valuable about having walked in those shoes and saying like, I'm with you in that way, right? I'm with you because I've literally been there and I can drop into the space that you're holding right now. And I know how that feels, right? If that's true empathy. And I can't tell you exactly how you're going to get out of it. But like, I've got some ideas, right? And the client feels that now. Yeah. I mean, whether you, whether you say it or not to, right? I mean, sometimes I don't even tell people that I'm in recovery from anything. But just hearing the like specific lingo or hearing you say certain things clicks and then I'd explain like she gets me, you know, she like understands this, you know, and so I don't have to necessarily make it about me sometimes or anything about me. It's, it's more like they feel, it feels more refreshing to them to just hear certain words or certain phrases that that help them to get it. Yeah. So let's shift a little bit. Like what role do substances play in sexual scripts? Like when it comes to let's think about like confidence or maybe being, you know, inhibited, for example. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, girl. I mean, to be honest, that was one of the reasons that I started using drugs in the first place was to feel more comfortable in the bedroom. I, from a very early age, was sexually active and absolutely adored my boyfriend would have done anything for him, but I was very shy and I was very modest and shy in the bedroom. And so to lower my inhibitions was, you know, everything for me and to be drunk or to be high helped me so much. But just, and I don't think this is just addicts. This is anybody, right? It's like it takes the edge off. I mean, lots of people, I think, are in this camp of like, I feel nervous going into this experience. I'm going to use substance, you know. So absolutely. I know myself a little bit. Yeah. Boy, and it doesn't have to be addictive. But since we are speaking of addiction, that is one of the main reasons that I did start using was with the romantic partner. And also it helped keep us together because he did it so often. I just wanted to be with him. So I was clinging to him. But I do believe, obviously, alcohol even, you know, is legal. And it's a natural, I mean, it inhibits us from caring, you know, and from being so, so it's a social lubricant, right? And so it's also a sexual lubricant. And so therefore, of course, the substance is going to lower the inhibitions, but also an addiction that completely lowers it to where then I started going against my own morals and values. And there's almost a cycle because you do it in that moment. But then when you're coming out of it, there's also it deepens the shame, right? Because you're sort of in a later place thinking, what did I do? And then it's right. Absolutely. There's some regret and some self loathing or self discussed or, you know, deeper shame. Yeah. Yeah, so it like goes hand in hand with that shame cycle of addiction as well of like, yeah, waking up to somebody you have no idea who they are or, you know, talk all day about things that that you when you do come down off of the drug, you're just like mortified at the things you've done. Yeah, it's like the outcome isn't something that you would have chosen, you know, if you hadn't been using the substance. And so there's this like, yeah, self abandonment. Exactly. Yes. I say, I think I say it in my book too. I say a lot. I did things I promised myself I would never do. And I said things I promised myself I would never say. And I was just going against all of my core beliefs. And then give me some examples of what kinds of intimacy challenges show up in early recovery. Like I'm thinking specifically of anorexia is one of the terms we use and you know, sort of in the seaside world, but what like what is that and then what else? 100%. I think the fear of being overly sexual again or or losing yourself sexually can play a role in that anorexia part of like just so you're protecting yourself from any kind of sexual interaction, you know, any kind of intimacy, meaning like even just going on one day, you're protecting yourself, you know, out of fear. Listeners who don't know the term anorexia used in this context, meaning like basically just avoiding sexual contact, right? Like in the food context, it means avoiding food. But in this means, you know, sometimes people will just once they get sober, they don't want to have any kind of sex or they just sort of shut down. They're shut closed for business and kind of avoid dating or avoid sex. Right. And that's much more prominent in the sex addiction world than in the substance use addiction world. I think we see the opposite in substance use is like the opposite. Then they go into like the sex and love stuff or the or just the love, you know, they're wanting that dopamine hit. Excuse me. They're wanting that dopamine hit again, that they're so craving and love and talking to somebody and getting attention from somebody. That's all kind of part of it. So it can literally, if we're looking at this as a spectrum and anorexia being on one end and then addiction or we don't even have to call it addiction, you know, overly acting out is on the other end. I feel like recovering addicts can tend to go in this level, but sex addicts can tend to go into the anorexia because they're so fearful of going back into the addiction piece. So it's almost like, okay, I can't do this thing anymore, but I'm going to do this other thing to kind of substitute. It's like, I need my my fix or I need something to make me feel better. And so this thing still allowed. I've heard actually that sometimes 12 step meetings can be pickup zones. I know it's true. It is true. So but I did want to say, though, I have seen spouses who get sober from alcohol or get clean and they are more because it's with the one spouse and they are definitely more fearful about, you know, even getting naked in front of their partner without being drunk or high. Even getting even getting just touchy, more touchy with their partner and things because they've never experienced that, you know, so that is definitely a problem and an issue that I've had to work through with my and it's more clients who are in a committed relationship than than my clients who are single because my single clients tend to veer the other way of like one of the, you know, date. Yeah, but those that have entered recovery right and they're already in a committed long term relationship, that's a different negotiation because whereas you'd think sobriety would be a great thing, but their partnership has also been sort of this negotiation where both have contributed in some way to the system has been oriented around their use. And so when they get sober, sometimes the other partner is still using or doesn't completely know what they're in for when they get the partner gets sober, how that's going to change the system. Absolutely. And it really, it really does change the system and causes a lot of turmoil for some people before it gets better, it gets worse sometimes, you know, because you're right, the other partner may be drinking casually or non-addictively. But the alcoholic or the addict client needs their partner to support them and to not drink around them at first. So it's very hard for the couple ship to to learn something different because absolutely they've been in this pattern as a long term relationship. So it worked to some degree until it stopped working. Well, and let's, okay, let's take a quick break. We're going to learn a little bit about the pleasure circle and we'll be right back. A quick pause here to share something that I've been working on that I think you will really appreciate, especially if you've ever felt confused or disconnected from your sexual desire. It's a self paced course that I created for women who want a better understanding of their sexual desire, especially if it's felt confusing, inconsistent or hard to access. A lot of us are taught that desires should just be there effortless, spontaneous, always on, but that is not the reality for most people. And when it's not, it can leave you feeling frustrated or like something is wrong with you. 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Now back to the episode. Let's talk about how sobriety in a partnership can change sort of the relationship to pleasure. Because when we were just sort of touching on that, but when a partner is sober and reentering a relationship and wanting to experience pleasure and how that showing up with new vulnerability, new, right? They're stripping away all their coping that they may have used for drugs and alcohol. And so they're feeling pretty vulnerable, pretty raw and they have a lot of new self-awareness, hopefully through some recovery work. But they're showing up with a partner that might be in a different space that maybe hasn't done that work. And how does that, you know, how does that new communication skills and all that? Like how does that look? It's a lot of unlearning and then relearning. And you're exactly right. You know, we're thinking about, you know, an addict in early recovery or an alcoholic who's in early recovery. They probably have a therapist they're working with to work on the communication skills, to work on the new coping skills for any kind of stress or anxiety or feeling shy in the bedroom and things. And or a sponsor too, to help with that, to help with learning how to speak up for themselves or create any kind of boundaries. 100%. Then you have a partner that may not have any of that kind of support, right? And the partner's like, well, why can't we just do it like this and you just not drink? And it's so, you know, it's so not like that. We can't have it like that because there's so many reasons. Why the drink was there in the first place or the drugs were there in the first place. It was a coping skill, right? So it started as a coping skill in the beginning and then it morphed into addiction. And now the partner wants, well, why can't we just be like we used to be, but no alcohol or no drugs? And it's just like, it doesn't, it's not that easy. It's just not that easy. It takes a lot of therapy and a lot of unlearning bold and really sick messages that they've created in their relationship, unhealthy dynamics. Right. And back to that idea of I'm with you, sometimes looks like I'm going to be sober with you and sober, certainly sober sex with you. Because, you know, this being in this intimate space, I would imagine probably feels best when both parties are really present and the presence comes through. You know, through clear mind, right? Where you're asking and you're communicating and you're sort of, you know, in the moment and really able to be there both and not just one of you because if the other person isn't, that's so obvious. It's so obvious. 100%. That's what healthy sex is, is for both partners to be present with the sex and to be present with each other in the moment. And absolutely, it can cause a huge wrinkle in the dynamics of the sexual intimacy when one gets sober and one isn't quite on board. But also how helpful is that for the other partner to be like, you know, I fully support you and I'm going to do this with you too. And if that means not using or drinking around you, then that's what it means and I'm going to come into this relationship as well, learning these new habits with you. And I would say too that sober sex is probably intimidating for both people. Yeah. Right? Because there's an attachment for the other partner, the non-addictive partner to substance too. Otherwise, you know, it would be a non-issue. You know, it's, there's a little bit of a leaning on it and so giving that up and approaching it, you know, without it feels probably a little bit intimidating. 100%. I mean, just like I talked about. Yes. Just like we talked about a few minutes ago of like it being the social or sexual lubricant, you know, that's for a non-addict as well. It's just naturally lubricant. So for that person to also give up the alcohol, of course, it's intimidating. It can be scary. It can be very vulnerable. And again, that's the goal though is for each partner to be vulnerable and safe in the intimacy connection. Yeah. Well, and I think too for, for, I work with a lot of couples and couples that have had sex kind of off the table for a while and substance sometimes is. And it isn't even part of the picture, but just trying to reenter this erotic space when things have been challenging and offline for a long time is really tricky and it's intimidating. And so once you've taken out a problematic piece like substance and typically with that, you're going to get support and look at some self reflection and that type of thing, right? You're re entering in a different headspace than what's happening, right? So then you're coming back together with hopefully more confidence, more grounding, more centering, more intentionality, more vulnerability. But it takes work. It takes so much work on both partners to work through that and to work on the emotional intimacy as well as the physical intimacy. Because like when we say vulnerability, that is the core of emotional intimacy, right? And then the other thing is being vulnerable in the presence of your partner and being safe at the same time. Taking those measured risks. I think that taking those measured risks exactly and creating that safety for one another is at the core of that and then to build that into, into the bedroom and in the sexual manner is just so, I mean, so therefore we go to the importance of therapy and clinical work in partnership and in couple ship. When one has been in addiction. Yeah. And I think about too, some of the folks I've seen who are kind of dating in early sobriety and the importance of sort of getting support during that process because boy dating is dating just period is difficult, right? Like it's just there's rejection. There's putting yourself out there. There's initiation. Never mind like returning to the same partner. But when you're dating, right? It's just hard anyway, but adding in the piece of sobriety and having to reintroduce yourself, introduce your sobriety, all of that, right? Do you have thoughts about that process? Yes. And yeah, it's so funny. It's so funny that you even mentioned that because my last couple client last night was in my office and I said, you know, there really should be after rehab there should be like relationship college because they put me in the same place. I'm first out laughing because they're recovering addicts, you know, and they're in this like where they're trying to reintegrate intimacy after being shut down for a long time. And yeah, I think it's just so important because again, we do not necessarily have those relational skills on deck immediately into recovery. And so to gain that and to build that together is like. To navigate because especially in dating, I mean, it comes up anyway, but I think it's it's magnified for those folks that have had addiction issues is the stuff around self worth. You mentioned that earlier, right? There's confidence issues that's going to come up in dating self worth power. Like do I deserve things like all of that gets kind of churned up in that process. So convoluted. Yes. Like whose turn is it to call? You know, do I have to pay for everything? Like all of that is like up for debate. And it's it's tricky of like how much of this work am I supposed to do? What do I deserve? You know, all of those questions get challenged. Right. I know. I want you to like me. Right. I had one client tell me one time she was like, how do I know how to ask for my needs to be met when I don't even know what my needs are. So it's so much of that self discovery to like what do I want? What do I need? In a relationship? Who am I? And all of that self discovery before they can even start to verbalize their wants and needs in a relationship. So dating can be terrifying. And it can also I enjoy though when people come into my office dating and recovery because it's the most practical practice. That they can do is I say, you know, look at dating as you're collecting data period, you're collecting data about yourself. You're collecting data about the other person and don't put so much love or you have to be together emphasis on it as like I'm just getting to know myself and to know them and to know us in partnership. You know. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's just information gathering. Yeah. It's just information gathering exactly. Yeah. Exactly. It's a numbers game. Right. And it's so it is it's so important for people who are in recovery from substances though because we don't like to wait on that. We don't like that waiting. You know, the three to six months of getting to know someone and before you decide to take it further and whatnot. We don't like that. We want to know the answers right now. Yeah. We want what we want, you know. Well, and that's the reality of a longer term relationship is the getting to know right that there has to be the small talk and then there goes into the deeper and that's how you get to there's tests that happen along the way into building a deeper relationship and you can't rush that it has to organically unfold and there has to be a certain amount of patience that addicts are typically not very good at. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. Do you help your clients create a dating plan? You know what to be completely honest. No. And we talk about it. We talk about goals and we talk about their commitments to themselves, but an actual written down paper dating plan. No, because for me as an addict and this I guess this is where that as an addict that kind of helps with my clinical role as well. I know if I got anything in writing anywhere about what I was to do. It kind of went out the window. I don't like being told what to do. Really? You're like, if you give me a rule, I will break it. Yeah. Exactly. It's just typical for addicts, you know, in recovery like please don't give me a rule because I'm going to go the opposite way of the rules. I don't, but I do talk. I do talk. We have lots and lots and lots of talk time around, you know, what your values are now. What do you want to see for yourself in a relationship? You know, and how are you going to get that because we don't necessarily get that from doing the same thing we've always done. It's not going to work like that. So we're going to have to do something different. So, but what I created in my book, it's in the last chapter of my book, I call it the Compassionate Structure Plan. And it is, it can either go in conjunction with the dating plan, but I use it as in like not in addition. I use it in lieu of a dating plan because I think it makes more sense for a person in recovery to go through and maybe check off, do some checklist, maybe write some affirmations after the date to kind of help with their red flags, seeing any kind of red flags, seeing any kind of boundary violations, seeing any kind of patterns that they may be doing over again. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like a ten- Disernment. Yeah. Right. Using some discernment, things like that. So it's kind of like a tenth step, so to speak, if you're in the 12-step programs. It's like a tenth step. You know, you're looking at your inventory each night before you go to bed. That's what I like more for the dating as opposed to here is your dating plan and you need to follow it, you know, and it just- It's more life skill building, right? It's like what's working? What's not? That's course correct in real time. And I like that too for sex. It's like, let's not do a postmortem where we pull everything apart. I don't think that's so helpful, but I think trying to understand what felt good, what would you wish you had said, right? You're doing some rehearsal because people need language. They need to understand what would you like to say? How might you introduce this preference in the bedroom? How might you initiate what you want as needs arise that you can't verbalize? How might you introduce that in the future? And what I think it is like, let's give you some language to do this in a way that feels organic for you. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if any of your listeners want to have access to that, they can absolutely email me and I will send them a free PDF copy of that. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And we'll put that in the show notes too. Okay. Sure. Great. That sounds good. So what else do you have coming up? I mean, your book has just come out recently. So that's pretty exciting. You're going to probably be doing more around that. Yeah. I think I found my book for sure more presenting on like you saw Jen and May more presenting around the addiction substance, substance use addiction in conjunction with the sex and love issues. So I'm going to be doing more presenting and just carrying on with my private practice. I do do a workshop as well, a family of origin workshop because I do believe that a lot of our relational patterns begin in our family of origin. And then with what we grew up watching and begin with what our first relationships were like with our parents or caregivers. Yeah. That's where it all begins. It's where it all begins. Well, this has been great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. If you want to reach Kim, you can find her at KLCounseling.com and I will put all this in the show notes. But thanks so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, it's Dr. Jen. Thanks so much for tuning in. Please leave us a review and leave a comment if something struck you. We'd love to get the feedback. It really helps the podcast. And if you want to reach me, go ahead and direct message me on Instagram or you can reach me at Jen at revieratherapy.com. Thanks. Thank you.