Lost My Virginity to My Stepbrother and Got Pregnant

Hi guys, it's me, Davora. I am so excited to finally share this with you all. I've officially launched a new subscription channel called We're All Insane Plus, where inside you will get access to never-before-heard bonus episodes, all podcast episodes completely commercial-free, and my brand new show, We're All Healing, where I sit down with experts, therapists, authors, and healers to talk about how we actually process pain, reconnect with our true selves, and rebuild after trauma. You can subscribe to We're All Insane Plus in-app on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or you can head over to we'reallinsane.com to learn more. My name is Laura. I have a story about kind of my whole life, but really when it comes down to it, it is the story of me losing my virginity to my stepbrother, who was much older than me, and ending up pregnant. and how my decisions from that situation kind of shaped my life for many years to come and how I really internalized and allowed myself guilt for a really, really long time. And I think I'm at the point where I am in a much better place. I am not healed, but I'm like at terms and at peace with everything that happened. And it's very much something that happened and is behind me. Yeah. So when it comes down to it, I did a lot of things that I regret, but in the end, it brought me to where I am now. And I think too, you know, with a topic like this, I feel like it goes one of two ways. like you either don't talk about it at all. And I'm sure there are some people that completely disassociate from it, or you hold it in, you have that guilt, you know, because it's something that why would you want to talk about it, you know? Yeah. So the fact that you're able to speak out about it, and I guess, you know, you'll get into it, obviously, for those listening, but the fact that you're able to openly talk about something traumatic that happened to you, and how and it's so true you know when things happen to us they do shape our lives and while they don't define us they might like set the tone for a big chunk you know so I think it's so amazing that you're willing and able now you know to speak out about that and if there's anybody because I always say there's so many people that can relate to things different portions of things and I think it's really really important so you should give yourself a lot of credit for that even though you're not no one I don't think ever anyone's ever completely healed because things are always happening in our life that's part of life but to get to a place that you're at is it's a pretty big step in a healing journey and I don't talk about this right so I recently shared this story with my therapist just to be able to say it again to make sure that I still remembered it and that I wasn't going to you know, just forget big parts of it or totally break down in the middle of it or anything. But before I told her about it, it had been years since the last time I spoke about it. And not a lot of people in my family know, very few people outside of my family know. Pretty much it's the people who were around me during the time that it happened. And then also like my husband and one or two other people. So did you decide after just seeing the show? Yeah. Wow. I love that. That's what I tell people all the time. I'm like, that is the, another, there's so many full circle things about it, but it's things like that, where it's like people that never have told their story or thought I never would. They, the people that come on here, they give so many people courage and confidence to own their story and not let it own them. And that's like, I feel like you are an incredible example. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I've listened to, I found it on Tik TOK and that's kind of where I found a couple of snippets. And then I was like, Oh, there's a podcast. I'll listen to the podcast. So I've listened to a lot, like most of the episodes, honestly, in the podcast. And I was just listening to one on the way home from work one day. And I was like, I think I should, I think I should try to share my story here. That's amazing. That makes it It literally makes me teary-eyed. I love that. That is incredible. It makes me so happy. Okay, keep going. Yeah. So I'm going to start kind of in my childhood and kind of work up to like how this happened in the first place. So I am the youngest of five children and my three sisters are a lot older. They're half sisters, a lot older than me. And then my brother and I are very close in age. We're only two years apart and he's my full brother. Growing up, I was very shy. I was the kind of person who only spoke to my mom and my brother. And if my dad, if I had to speak to my dad, I would speak to him. But I was like always very like shy around him too. So really it was just my mom and my brother. And my sisters did not live with us in my memory. I don't remember them ever living with us. I know when I was born, like they were around. But one thing growing up that I always remembered and I always felt pressure on was the fact that my sisters and my mom were all teen moms. So I love my sisters to death. I think that they are the strongest women and my mother, the strongest woman I've ever met. But I always felt like you can't end up that way. You can't be the person who also gets pregnant when you're a teenager and not finish school or go an alternate path and then have to finish school later or try extra hard. I feel like my parents did everything to set my brother up and the two of us up for success, for us to have a privileged life in order to avoid that. So my job growing up was to do well in school, get into a good college, make a good career and like be the perfect kid. And I feel like a lot of that is internalized. It's not necessarily my mom wasn't breathing down my neck, making sure that I never got teen pregnant. It was just something that I heard a lot and I knew how difficult it was for them. So I didn't want to be like that. I was going to be the perfect kid and do everything right. I also, with my friends growing up, I had a group of really close friends. There were four girls and four boys that throughout grade school, middle school, we were all very close to each other. And we were also close during high school as well. And I was never the pretty one or the fun one or the social one. I just felt like I weighed more than them. I've always weighed more than everybody else my whole life. Even looking back, I did not weigh that much. I was very much an average size, but I always felt bigger. I had really bad acne and I always felt like I was just not somebody that was popular, not somebody who was like good with boys or anything like that. so throughout high school and even into college I was never really romantically pursued by anybody or even if it happened it was something where like I didn't like them back or I didn't know that they liked me or anything like that so I never really had relationships in high school in college everybody was more focused on studies I went to a college that was very notorious for people not dating and everybody like we're all nerds we're heads down kind of thing so it just wasn't a thing that happened that often and so even in the transition from high school to college I never really felt desired I always wanted people but I never you know I was never like back I never had crushed it back or anything like that or if I did it just went right over my head so I met my stepbrother, Matt, when I was late in college, like six weeks away from graduation. So, I mean, at this point I had done everything right in my life. I went to my dream college. I was going to graduate in six weeks. I didn't have a job yet, but I'm like, everything's going to be great. Like I did everything I was supposed to do. and then it was actually at my dad's wedding to Matt's mom so my parents had gotten divorced a couple of years earlier that was a whole thing but it's not really relevant except for the fact that they got divorced and that's how it is so it was like April I go to my dad's house for the weekend because they're getting married it's you know going to be at this beautiful thing in the church and then I get to meet her family for the first time. And so her two sons were there and one of them, he was married. He had a kid, kid was adorable. And the other one is Matt, who I was 21 and he was 37. And right away, we had dinner, like all of the family had dinner at my dad's house. and it was just like some kind of like attraction kind of some kind of spark like I remember somebody gave a toast or like said a prayer or something before we all had dinner and then like he and I like locked eyes and he was just like smirking about something that was about love because they were having a toast about love because it was a wedding weekend and so I was like oh I think he likes me and this is kind of a big deal because one I think he's hot and two he's older than me and he's cool and he's like successful and he actually likes me the 21 year old like yeah I've never I've been in like very minor relationships I've kind of dated around at this point but I've never been in a serious relationship I've never had what I consider a boyfriend up until this point so I'm like wow this is like never happened before and this was The first time you met him. First time I met him. So I didn't know anything about him except for him just being my new stepmom's son. And so very first time that we met. And then the next day is when our parents got married. And then at the reception, he kissed me. And I was like, oh, man, this is happening. And I remember I was texting my friends back at school. And I was like, oh, my God, I met this guy. And he kissed me. And this is so cool. And they're like, OK, just be careful, all of this stuff. And I was not careful. And I was not thinking to be careful. I was just very much thinking, this guy likes me. This is great. I'm super happy. Now, quick question. were you did you have any thoughts at this time of being nervous of like well he's my stepbrother like no one can find out or were you kind of just like in this trance of like like you said like he likes me and I think he's hot I never thought anything about him being my stepbrother okay it was something where yes yes he is or technically it is but and it's hard too because you just met it's not like you had like this brother sister relationship like leading up to it and he was so much older than me right i didn't i didn't think of anything yeah i was like oh yeah he's just so the kiss did he pull you aside like was it private no it was so not private it was like on the dance floor at the wedding reception did anyone see yeah i remember my aunt so my dad's sister was like whoa stay away from him. Yeah. She was like, Oh, what's going on there? And I'm like, I don't know. You told me, I don't know what's going on. All I know is that this is neat. Wow. Okay. So it wasn't like secretive at all. No, not, not really. Okay. Hi guys. It's me, Davora. I am so excited to finally share this with you all. I've officially launched a new subscription channel called we're all insane plus where inside you will get access to never before heard bonus episodes, all podcast episodes completely commercial free and my brand new show we're all healing where i sit down with experts therapists authors and healers to talk about how we actually process pain reconnect with our true selves and rebuild after trauma you can subscribe to we're all insane plus in app on apple podcasts or spotify or you can head over to we're all insane.com to learn more hi guys it's me devora The We're All Insane merch store is officially open. I've been working so hard on this line and really made it with you in mind. And I am so excited. We have totes, tumblers, sweatshirts, and my personal favorite, the crewnecks with the matching sweatpants. And let me just tell you, they are so comfortable and so soft. It is my favorite thing to wear. And the colors are so cute. This is my very first launch and we only printed a limited amount. So once it is gone, it's gone. So make sure you head to we're all insane.com and grab yours today. It's a new year. And if we're being honest, a lot of us don't feel like ourselves anymore. Stress, trauma, survival mode, it all shows up in the body and weight management can feel especially overwhelming when you've already been carrying so much with so many options for weight loss. It's hard to know who to trust and what actually works and what's safe. That's why I want to tell you about weight loss by hers through hers. you're connected with a licensed medical provider who actually learns your story and determines if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your plan is personalized and can include options like oral medication kits or GLP one injectables, plus nutrition tips, tracking tools, and 24 seven support. This isn't about punishing your body. It's about steady, realistic progress without the yo-yoing feel like your best self. Again, visit for hers.com slash insane to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you that's f-o-r-h-e-r-s.com slash insane for hers.com slash insane weight loss by hers is not available everywhere compounded drug products are not approved or evaluated for safety effectiveness or quality by the fdi prescription is required see website for full details important safety information and restrictions actual price depends on products and fan purchased and i don't know who saw i was very much in my own but it wasn't it was but it is for okay totally in public in front of everybody like everybody was in the room yeah so who knows who actually saw anything and it's hard to you know like I feel like there is a very real thing about not choosing who we have an attraction to not choosing who that spark comes with you know what I mean so it's like some people have never felt that in their lives it sucks for you but like that is a real thing and sometimes two people just connect without words without any like it just it happens. You know, maybe not in the best of circumstances sometimes, but it does. Yeah. So I was staying that evening at my uncle's house. Okay. And Matt was staying back at my dad's house. And he invited me to go sightseeing with them. So this is in Chicago. Matt and his brother and like that whole group had never really been to Chicago before, hadn't seen anything. So he invited me to go out with them the next day. And I said, okay, but all of my stuff is still at my uncle's house. My uncle actually went back to his house, got my suitcase, brought it over so that I could go back to my dad's house and spend the night there. So my dad and my new stepmom, they went to a hotel for a couple of days to have like their own private time. And then I was back at the house with Matt and with my other stepbrother and like his family. So I was going to sleep on the couch or Matt, one of us was going to sleep on the couch. And then that didn't happen. We ended up like, as soon as everybody else like went to bed and left, like we started making out and then we went to bed and then we had sex with each other. And then, and he was your first, he was my first. I didn't tell him that I was like, terrified that he would know. Yeah. And that like this, because at this point, like I had learned a little bit more about him. Apparently he had been married before. I was like, oh crap, he's been married before. He's like, knows what he's doing. Yeah. I have no idea what I'm doing, but I mean, it was, it was fine. It was like my first time and it was good and I enjoyed it and everything was great. Um, and then the next day for some reason, my step-mom came with us, but not my dad. I don't know where my dad was, but it was, so my two stepbrothers, my stepmom and I, and Matt is like very openly like arm around me, kissing me right in front of the stepmom. So like not hiding it at all. And at one point he even asked, like, he even asked his mom, he was like, are you okay with this? Is this okay? And she was like, whatever. I don't care. okay yeah but it was also super creepy like this guy's kind of a creep he totally was excited about calling me his little sister and referring to me that way and being like oh you're my little sis oh oh i'm gonna protect you little sis but not really like he was yeah very drawn to that Right Like it wasn like it was just okay we really like each other It a spark It was kind of like that But then also this kind of like fetish almost fetish taboo kind of thing Right I mean for some people that gets him off Yeah. So he was very, and that started like right away. That started right away. Okay. He was very into it. And then while we're out like doing some tours and like seeing some stuff in Chicago, So I find out like kind of passively that he has a girlfriend and that this is like a weekend fling thing. And I'm like, did I hear that right? Yeah. That he has a girlfriend. And I'm like petrified at this point. I don't know what to say. I've never been in this situation before. I don't know what to do. And I was like, I'm just going to ignore that for now. I'm just going to have a good day. I'm going back to school tomorrow. it's you know everything will be fine we're we're fine and then we'll just see where this goes from here because like he lived back so my family growing up lived in Florida and then I was in school in Chicago so like I grew up in Florida moved to Chicago my dad moved to Chicago after the divorce so he lived in Florida so he wasn't close I knew that this wasn't going to be like long-term a long-term serious thing I remember telling him that I was going to miss him and he was like oh that's sweet right he was not not into it very dismissive very like oh you're so young yeah kind of thing I'm like oh that's great and so after we do all the sightseeing we go back to our dad's house and we do sleep together again. And then the next day I'm leaving to go back to school. Now, was your dad aware of this? I don't know. And even to this day, I don't know. My assumption is that my stepmom told him at some point because she was very aware. But I also, knowing her, would not be surprised if she didn't say anything. She had a tendency to be a bit of a secretive person. Hi, I'm Alicia. And I'm Stacy. And we make Trashy Divorces, everybody's favorite good podcast about bad relationships. Looking for something true crimey without the gore or the body count? We've been churning out funny, feisty, feminist episodes since 2019. So if you're looking to put some scandalous stories told well into your ears this summer, check out Trashy Divorces wherever you listen to podcasts. Trust us, we've covered someone you love. or someone you love to hate. Keep things from my dad. Spoiler alert, they did not stay married for super long. They were only married for a couple of years before they split up. But I don't think my dad ever knew. Okay. I recently told my brother, who was there. He was present for this whole thing. He wasn't at the house, but he was around. And he seemed a little bit protective at first. when we were still at the wedding he seemed a little protective of me and everything and just being near hit near Matt but I recently told him like just a couple of months ago I told him and he was like yeah I had no idea wow okay so he had no idea but I said goodbye to Matt I went back to school. He went back to Florida and he had told me he travels a lot for work and he would love to like fly me out to where he's traveling and like have weekends with me or things like that. And so in my mind, I'm like, I guess that's fine. You know, I'm not seeing anybody else. I'm young. I don't really care. So, and I like him. Yeah. So I think that's fine. and then a couple of days later I don't really hear from him this is 2007 so we can text each other but people aren't really texting yet I called him once but I got like his machine and he never called me back kind of thing but like he emailed me a couple of times during this like interim period and then two or three days before my birthday so it's two weeks later so it's almost my birthday. Right before my birthday, he sends me an email and he says, this isn't going to work out. See ya kind of thing. And I'm like, well, that's great. That kind of sucks. But you know, I kind of like, what was I thinking? Like, I didn't really expect this to go on. And I knew that he was with somebody and I was just like, that's, that's fine, whatever. But at the same time, I'm thinking, I think I might be pregnant. Like just have this like inkling in my brain I think that I think I might be pregnant. And so I'm in college. So I go to first I go to the like drugstore and just get a pregnancy test and I take it. And I think I see a line. And then I was in a sorority house at this time. So I go to one of my sisters and I'm like, what do you what do you think? What do you think you see here? And she's like, I don't think so. I think it's negative. And I'm like, I don't know. so I go to the college's like health center and have them give me a pregnancy test and they're like yes it's positive I'm like oh okay well he just broke up with me yesterday so this isn't great so I'm assuming you guys did not use protection and he just did his thing he just did his thing and that's just crazy like you know that he just wouldn't he didn't think about it yeah like he didn't bring it up I never brought it up and he never asked like oh are you on birth control No, nothing. No conversation whatsoever. And even so afterwards, I had told a couple of my friends, I was like, oh, we slept together. And it was a whole, like, I was so excited about it because I like lost my virginity and it was so cool. And then this guy was so cool. And they were like, did you use protection? I was like, no, like you should get a morning after pill. And I was like, yeah, you're probably right. And when I went back to school, so again, it's 2007, you can get the morning after pill at a pharmacy, but you have to like go to the pharmacy and ask for it. So I went to the pharmacy, I asked for it and they didn't have any. Wow. Okay. And I was like, okay, bye. And then I just never did anything. Damn. So yeah, it is. It was crazy. And so that's kind of how that very obviously happened. Like we did nothing. I didn't take a morning after pill, very obviously like you're going to get pregnant if you're at the right time. Yeah. So I did. And I had no idea what to do. So at this point, it's mid May, like early mid May, and I'm graduating in mid June. And I don't have a job. I don't even have really a place to live at this point because I could live with my dad, but I don't really get along very well with him and my stepmom and they just got married. So I don't really want to move in with them. And they don't really have room for me either. I, my mom, who I'm very close to, she and I were very apart at this time because she was in a relationship where I didn't really like the other person that much. And they were going to move to Arkansas. And I didn't want to move to Arkansas. Like I knew nothing there. I had no connections there whatsoever. So I didn't want to move back in with her because I didn't want to go to Arkansas. And especially when she was with somebody who I didn't really like and we didn't get along. So at this point, I don't really have a place to live. I don't have a job. And now I'm pregnant and I'm freaking out. And again, I'm starting to think of all of the things in my life that I was supposed to be the best at, or I was supposed to be good for. And one of them was not getting pregnant, but then I did. And I felt so ashamed of myself. And I had no idea how I was going to tell my mom and disappoint her and tell her, hey, I'm pregnant, just like everybody else. Like, I'm like, sorry, I know you want me to turn out different. And I know I tried to do everything to turn out different, but I ended up in the same place as everybody else. Now, when you found out, did you tell him right away or did you? I did. Okay. And what was his reaction? So I hadn't replied yet to his breakup email. So I replied and I was like, hey, can you call me? we need to talk. And I told him on the phone and he's like, well, I guess I have to break up with my girlfriend. I was like, if you want, I'm not saying we have to be together. And I don't think he was saying that we should be together or in any way, but he was like, well, I cheated on her and now you're pregnant. So I'm definitely going to break up with her. But he said, I think, I think you should get rid of it. I don't think you should have this baby. and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do and then he said that and I was like well I kind of guess that I should do that but at the same time I was like well I kind of want to keep it but then like how am I going to tell my family and I feel like too it's so hard because you were so naive in that realm of things you know like it was so much at once and you had no understanding experience under your belt with it and on top of it you guys aren't together he's telling you to get rid of it what else what like you know what i mean just like it wouldn't it's hard you know it's like in that moment i feel like anyone would just be like all right let me just not then you know right and so i didn't have any sort of like moral dilemma about an abortion i'm i grew up catholic My family was very Catholic. I went to Catholic school my whole life. And obviously they are very pro-life and that is very much how they feel. But like for me, it just didn't, I didn't really have a side one way or another. It was more so like what's best for me in my life now. Yeah, right. So I didn't necessarily have a moral dilemma about it. It was more that I just didn't know if I wanted to keep it or not. and so I asked him I was like if I do decide to keep this baby are you going to help me financially like what what is your role going to be and he very much hedged the question and he was very adamant like no you should get rid of it and he said I've been in this situation before I think you should get rid of it okay so this isn't his first time doing something like this and he has a very strong opinion about it. I was like, fine. Well, I'm a broke college student. I need you to pay for it. And he said, okay. So I already had a trip to Florida planned, already planned, booked and everything to go see friends. Okay. So I flew down to Florida and then he lived in the same area. So I was staying with a friend. He came over and gave me a check essentially to pay for the abortion. was he flirty at all? He was. Oh my gosh. I'm so incensed about this because men, men. So he, I'm at my friend's house. It's just me and her there. And she's still sleeping. It's kind of early in the morning. So she's in her bedroom, still sleeping. And I'm out in the living room watching TV. And he comes up like the walkway to the house. And I remember looking at him being like, why am I attracted to this man? And I just felt nothing for him whatsoever. He comes in, I'm thinking he's just going to like give me money and leave. No, he comes in, he sits down. I remember there's a music video playing on the TV and it's like very flirty and very sexual. And he's just kind of like giving me the eyebrows. And I'm like, are you serious right now? You're here to give me money for an abortion not to hook up again and obviously he's a man so he's like we're not gonna get more pregnant like no and we definitely did not do anything because i was i was done with it at this point i was like give me the money and get right get the hell out yeah and i remember after he left my friend came out of her room and i was like do you believe Eve, this man just tried to have sex with me right now. Yeah. Oh my God. A piece of work. Yeah. So went back to school and it was a couple of days before graduation at this point. And I had an appointment. So it was like the week of graduation. So I'm going to graduate on like Friday or Saturday and it's like Thursday. And I go to my appointment and to save money, I wanted to be awake during the procedure because it was like $200 more if they like knock you out. And it was a horrifying procedure. Not in the sense that like, are you comfortable talking about it? Yeah. Okay. Not in the sense like it was like, you know, violent or like anything like that, or that I had a big fear of it. It was just, I remember during the procedure, I felt like I was going to die. Like something was going on. I don't know if I was having a panic attack, which very, very much could have been this case. Or maybe I just wasn't breathing properly, but I felt like I am dying right now. Like, was it painful? No. Okay. There was no pain whatsoever. Like I could feel like I could hear it and I could kind of feel like going around, but like, I couldn't, there was no pain whatsoever. And then I just, I felt like my soul was like leaving like an out of body experience. Yeah. and there was somebody there holding my hand because I was there alone like most of my friends weren't on campus anymore because it was graduation week and then my friends who were there on campus were like their families were there for graduation so like nobody was going to come with me at this point so I went by myself and there was just a woman there who was just a nurse or an aide or something like that and she her whole job was just to hold my hand and she was talking to me and looking me in my eyes be like, you're fine. Come back. You're good. Like just kind of keeping me grounded. But I remember thinking that like, I'm going to die, you know, but it didn't last very long. I got my wits about me. I was able to calm down enough and everything went medically fine. How long is that procedure? Is it quick or it was pretty quick. It was just a couple of minutes. wow yeah very quick it was kind of like they numb you up they go in there they do something you're done it is crazy wow okay yeah and did you feel I know that you felt during you know like you were gonna die did you feel any sadness so not at that moment and then I sat up and I had Like when you know, when you have your period and like, you feel it coming out, you feel your blood coming out. I sat up and I felt, I felt myself having what, you know, what essentially is a period. And I remember being like, this was the wrong decision. And it was too late. Obviously it was done. It was over. But I remember thinking, like I sat up and I was like, why did I do that? That was not the right thing to do. Why did I do that? And I was very, like, I immediately regretted it, like instantaneously regretted it. And that is the start of the guilt. So like the recovery from it was just like a period. They give you some medication and stuff to take so that you don't get an infection. But for the most part, it's just like kind of having a bad period. And so I just remember going back to the house I was living in just for a couple more days and then just feeling this overwhelming like regret, like the whole train ride home, getting like walking back to my house, going back in the house and then being alone. and there's nobody there because it's, you know, graduation week. So there's really not a lot of people there. And just being like, what the hell did I just do? Why did, why did I make that decision? And that's kind of like the whole start of like the after. I keep thinking of it as after, like everything in my life before and after. And at this point, I still don't have a job, but I have a place to live. My sister asked me to move in with her. She just called me up kind of randomly. And it was just like, Hey, do you have a job? Why don't you come live with me? And you can try to find a job while you're here. So I had a place to live. I went by her. I did not tell her. I didn't tell anybody. So like, even that weekend, like all my family was there for my graduation. There was like beautiful time, like pictures and all this stuff. And I'm just thinking like the whole time, like I just had an abortion and I'm horrible and I can't believe I just did that. And went to go live with my sister and I was extremely depressed for those first couple of months afterwards. I remember I went to go see a movie with my nephew and his friend and for whatever reason, I had to get up and pee a couple of times, like just drink too much water or whatever. And at one point I was like, okay, I'm going to go get up and pee. And one of them was like, are you pregnant? Like, why do you keep peeing? And I'm just like, shock, like total shock, like all the blood drains from my face. And I'm just like, I cannot believe you just asked me that. And I like I had to like run away and like go cry about it because I just couldn believe it Like those kinds of things just like trigger you and you don expect them And then I was extremely triggered from that And I had not a serious panic attack, but a mild panic attack from, from that. Did Matt ever ask you how it went? I never spoke to him again. After he gave the money. It's crazy. And I mean, that's kind of a he did send me a Facebook message many years later. Like I would say like three or four years later. And it was just like, Hey, how are you? Haven't heard from you a while. Just want to see how you're doing. I want to see if you want to reconnect. And I sent him this long message back that was like, I have been severely traumatized by you and I never want to see you again. Did he respond? No, I think I blocked him before he did. I just sent it. And I was like, don't ever contact me again. And he never did. And I haven't spoken to him since. Really? He doesn't even grasp or understand what he calls. He has no idea now. So I'm having a lot of regret about this. And I'm thinking with my lifelong Catholic education, I'm like, God is going to punish me for doing this. So I am going to get punished in some way. Like God always forgives. So he's going to forgive me. But just like any parents are going to forgive you. But they're still going to punish you. And God is going to punish me. And I'm never going to be able to have kids ever. I'm never going to have my own kid. I'm never going to get pregnant again. That's like this is going to be my punishment for the rest of my life. Because I did this. So that's just something I thought. That's something that I internalized on myself and put on myself from that point on. While I'm living with my sister, I get a job. I meet my husband. So it's been about six months since graduation when my husband and I start dating. And he's just amazing. I mean, it's been 15 years we've been married. Congratulations. Yeah. Like, he's amazing, and I love him to death. Like, he is wonderful. I did tell him kind of early in the relationship about Matt and about the whole situation. And he was like, I'm so sorry you went through that. And I was like, what happens if, like, you get me pregnant? And he's like, well, I'll marry you. I'm like, oh, my gosh. That's amazing, because I want to marry you anyway. So we get married around, like, two and a half years after we start dating. So like halfway through that, we get engaged, then we get married and we're married for a year or two before we decide we want to have kids. So we go, I get off of birth control. I start trying to have kids with him and it just doesn't happen. And he goes to see a fertility specialist. I go as well. They deem that there's nothing wrong with me, but there's something wrong with like his like sperm count, mobility, whatever. I don't really know, but I know that it's just unlikely to happen naturally. So they put me on like these meds that make me like extra fertile. They put him on some kind of regimen so that he can be extra fertile. And they're like, go try it for a while. And we try for a while. And then I think that put a big strain on our marriage because we were trying and nothing and trying and nothing and trying and nothing. So ultimately we were like, we can't do this naturally. So we have a couple of options in front of us. We could go IVF or we could go adoption. And at this point, were you blaming yourself? Yes. Okay. The whole time I'm blaming myself. Like this is because of what I did. This is my fault. And I am not as severely depressed as I was like for those first couple of months afterwards. but anything abortion related triggered me very very badly so a commercial on tv a plot point in a show is very common there would be like protests random protests somewhere in town and we would drive by them i remember i was on the phone with my husband on the way home from work i was like just on my way home talking to him and a truck goes by with like an anti-abortion sign on the truck and I just break down into tears I have to pull over I am completely annihilated like I cannot even get myself together and I'm crying on the phone with him for a long time until I'm able to finally pull myself together and I remember we went to like this like town festival and there were abortion protesters outside the festival and I couldn't go in. We went back to the car, went back home because I immediately started crying. So it was an extreme trigger for me throughout this whole time. And I am just, you know, this is my fault. I did this. I made this decision. It is totally my fault. And something I do want to make clear is that I'm still very much pro-choice at this point. Like I made this decision. This is my fault. This is something I should not have done, but I in no way feel like that applies to anybody else. That is very much my own internal decision. Anybody else can do whatever they want. But for me, I still, to this day, I feel like it's the wrong decision, even though I've made peace with it at this point. yeah I kind of I still feel that when there's no you know you felt the way you did right like well during but then even right after you knew right away and I don't think that's something that you change your mind on that's just how you truly felt you know and that's just like you said that that's your case and I think that that's something that like you all you can do is over time make peace with that but like doesn't mean it's going to change you know like oh like never mind I made the right decision you know what i mean it's just something where you're you grasp it in many different ways right so we are at kind of a junction where we decide either we want to go ivf or we want to go adoption and in my mind i'm thinking i'm never going to be pregnant because i'm being punished so even if we go ivf it's not going to work we're going to spend all this money like logically it's around the same amount of money to go either path for us so we're not going to go that way because it's just not going to work for me i know it right now even not considering science or medicine or anything like that i'm just in my gut i know that's not going to work so we decided to go the adoption route and there's a lot of stuff we have to do to prepare for it like we bought a house and then we saved up our money and stuff and then we finally found an agency and everything worked out the way that we wanted it to to start the process for adoption. And we have one of the most unusual adoption cases because we had five adoption failures in a row before we got our son. And everybody that I spoke to, even we had two separate agencies that we had are kind of like a broker almost where people like the birth mothers contact them and they connect you with a birth family. But there's also a separate agency that does all of like the paperwork, like the home study, and you have to get a foster license technically before you adopt. So all of that like bureaucracy kind of stuff is a different agency. But everybody I'm talking to at both agencies are like, I've never seen somebody go through this many failures. And why was it a failure? So just like multiple different factors, multiple different factors. And I can kind of talk about them. I won't go into too much detail because they're not my stories to tell. Yeah. You know, and a birth mom has every right to keep her kid for whatever reason, up until the point of when they terminate their rights. And so the very first one, I remember being very skeptical about it and my husband being very optimistic about it. So we're in contact with a mom. We had been matched for a while. We're like texting her. Everything seems to be going fine. She texts us and says, I'm going into labor. Can you come down? And this is in, we're in Milwaukee. This is in Chicago. So it's an hour and a half drive. So we drive down there and then we're texting her, what hospital are you at? And she never replies. And then keep trying to contact her. She never replies, never replies. And finally, the agency gets in contact with her and she decides to keep the child. so that was very devastating for us on multiple ways but all of them were devastating on multiple levels but that was the first time it had happened and franklin was very my husband franklin was very optimistic about the whole thing he was like yeah this is gonna work right now the baby today this is gonna be great and i was just like yeah you know she has time before she can make her decision So I don't want to get excited, get too excited. So I'm guarded, but he's not. And he was crushed. I'm sure that first time he was, he had absolutely no, no idea that it would not work out. So that did not go well. And in my brain, I'm like, well, that's because you're never going to have a baby. So just deal with it. Like this is going to happen every time. The next one, we're in Milwaukee. She's in Dallas. We drive all the way down to Dallas. Same situation. Like we had been talking to her and texting her and all this stuff. We drive down to Dallas. We go to the hospital. She tells us the name of the hospital. We get there and they say that she's not there. There's nobody by that name there. And it's like one o'clock in the morning. We're like, are you serious? So we end up spending the night, try to contact her. She never replies. Agency's trying to contact her. No reply. She's like, she doesn't have her own phone. She's using our brother's phone. So we are talking to the brother and the brother is like, oh, she's in the hospital. We just, you know, need some time, but it didn't work out. So that also sucked, but that sucked even more because we drove all the way down to Dallas and now we have to drive all the way back. And then we had one where we were on the phone with her and then it didn't work out. She didn't pick us. So we had a long conversation. We thought that we vibed with her. It didn't work out. So that one didn't hurt as much. It was just kind of like, oh, bummer. And then we had one in Mississippi and that one was really tough because that, that mom, we were very close to, we had been with her for a long time. We were matched with her a couple of months before she had the baby. We talked to her several times. We really connected with her. We went down and saw her and the baby in the hospital and the baby was born on Christmas Eve. And she's like, Merry Christmas. Here's your baby. You know, all of this kind of like my job's done. Here's your baby. You take her all of this stuff. And then we come back the next day when the baby and her are going to be released and she's different. You can kind of tell like her mood has changed a little bit. and she's like, can I just take the baby for a little bit, take her out of the hospital? We're like, okay. And then they call us in the, in a gas station parking lot. They like hand over the baby to us. And they're like, here you go. Here's the baby. We're done. We had some time with her, said goodbye. And now here's your baby. So we have this baby in our possession for like a couple of hours at this point. And I remember trying desperately to connect with this baby, like very much being like, oh, this is our baby. Let me feed her. I'm going to love her. Trying to call her by like the name that we had picked out for her and all this stuff. And I'm just not feeling it. Like, you know, you think about like what people say when they have a baby and like the connection. And even if it's not your baby, like you have that kind of instant connection between the two of you. And I remember like holding this baby and feeding this baby and being like, I just don't, I really want this to work out, but I just don't feel anything for this baby. And I don't know why that was, but it just wasn't there. And we have her for like four or five hours before the mom calls us and says, I want the baby back. That's her right. She hasn't signed the paperwork yet. The paperwork's not going to be signed for another like two days because different states have different times that the mother has to decide on whether or not she's going to keep the baby. So she's technically still has two more days. So we give the baby back and then she doesn't show up for the parental right termination. And we kind of knew it. We kind of knew when we came back the next day and her mood had shifted that she was not following through she was not going to follow through and even so i was like i don't feel like this is my baby anyway you could probably yeah i think you sensed it too yeah so that one really stuck because we had a physical baby yeah in our arms and then the baby had to be given back and all of this stuff and at this point we're at the end of our adoption contract because you have two years on your contract and after the two years you have to pay all of the money again so essentially like to renew it to renew it so you like signing a brand new contract we're like do we even want to do that because that's a lot of money yeah and we have to go through all of this again and are like we're totally bummed at this point and have gone through so many failures people are telling us like this it's so abnormal. Like this has never happened to any family we've ever worked with before. And I'm like, well, it's because I'm never going to have a baby. I know this. Like in my brain, I'm just like, well, I know, I know all of these are going to fail. They're never going to work out. And it's around this time, I think maybe actually before we had, before that baby in Mississippi was born, that I went to therapy because I knew like, this is not right. I can't like keep blaming myself. I can't keep having this guilt on myself. You got to talk about it. I need to talk to somebody about it. So I find a therapist and ended up only having three sessions with her. I only only needed three sessions with her. But basically what we talked about was letting go of my abortion and just letting go of that and stop blaming myself for that and stop having all of these like negative connotations with what had happened like blaming yourself so many years ago because this is like 2018 at this point so this is over 10 years since it's happened and I'm still internalizing it and I'm still saying like I'm never getting pregnant because this is my punishment I'm never gonna have a baby because this is my punishment this is what is happening to me and we're gonna keep trying but it's never gonna happen so I went to therapy the therapist had me write a letter to my baby and I did and I apologize and I said it's time to let you go and you know goodbye we're done and then the next failure happens and I'm like I'm still pretty bummed about it but at the same time this is the one where I'm like that I'm just not feeling it and then they come the agency comes back to us and they're like we can renew your contract for three months and we'll see what happens. But after that, we can't renew it again. You have to, you have to redo the whole thing. And during that three months is when we get matched with my son's mom. And even so during that time, it's not that long after the previous failure. It's only a couple of days, maybe a couple of weeks. And we're like, do we even want to do this right now and I I convinced my husband I was like listen this is probably our last shot because she is not due until after our renewal is over so it's kind of like now this is it like either we take this or we don't have another chance unless we want to decide to pay all the money again and And at this point, we were like, we're not going to do that. We had made that decision. We were going to take a break at least before considering it again. So we make a decision. We're like, okay, we'll stay with her. We'll accept this match and we'll see if it works out. And we talked to her several times. We actually went to visit her. This is the only difference between her and all the other ones is we went to visit her while she was still pregnant. um so this was in Atlanta so we flew down to Atlanta had a nice little weekend went sightseeing had dinner with her it just wasn't anything special we just kind of talked to her a little bit about herself and like you know told her a little bit more about us in person and just like had a nice dinner and that was really all of our interaction with her I do think that made a difference okay in her decision because she got to physically meet us we weren't just people on a phone that you that you could ghost at this point we were we were real people and I think that helped so she goes into labor we drive down to Atlanta and we get there at like one o'clock in the morning and the baby in the NICU um he had like that jaundice thing going on so they had him under lights in the NICU And so visiting a baby in the NICU is very difficult You have to have a code from like the mom to be able to even go in and see the baby. And we're like, okay, we don't have a code. It's one o'clock in the morning. The mom is asleep. I don't want to bother her at one o'clock in the morning. But can I please just see the baby? And they were very nice. They had no idea what was going on with an adoption. They had no idea how to handle it. But they were very nice. And they said, okay, you can go in one at a time and you can see the baby for like five minutes. And so I went in and I looked at the baby and I'm like, that is my son. Wow. Like immediately I'm like, this is my son. And I knew right away. And there was like no questioning whatsoever. her. And so the next day we actually meet them in the hospital and she was very logical. Well, everybody else had been very emotional about their decisions. She was just like, I don't have a car. I don't have a car seat. I don't have anywhere to put this baby. Like, yeah, just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense for me to keep this baby. Like, what am I going to do with it? I can't even take it home and so she they in Georgia they sign the paperwork pretty quickly I think it might be it's either 24 or 48 hours after birth but then they still have five days after that to make their decision so they can kind of like go back on the paperwork for five days afterwards so nerve-wracking I would not like that yeah I it's where we lived in Wisconsin it was 30 days which is crazy because you know obviously like it I understand to give the mother the right but like let's take into consideration all the hormones all the emotion yeah like that doesn't mean that that lifestyle would be fit for that child in comparison to people that are adopting because they want to start a family not because you know what I mean like that makes it difficult and I could go I could go speak for hours about adoption and how I feel about that. But I will say like, there are people who probably shouldn't have kept their babies that kept their babies. But in the end, that's not my decision. That's their decision. That's the rules. So it is what it is. And I try not to think about it too much because then I'll just make me sad. But with this one, with our son, like it was very much a black and white. I cannot take care of this baby. You can take care of this baby. Here you go. And it also helped that the baby was in the NICU. So the baby wasn't right there with her. She didn't have to take care of it. She didn't have to bond. She didn't have to worry about it because the baby was gone and she could go see it if she wanted to, but she didn't have to. And I don't, I think she went and said goodbye to him before she left the hospital, but that was it. Now, are they allowed to stay in contact with you guys? Yes. Okay. So it depends on the type of adoption you choose. You can choose an open or a closed adoption. So closed adoption means no contact whatsoever. Open adoption, you make the rules together. Okay. So we have her phone number. She has our phone number. If she wants to call us, she can. We know her name. We know where she lives, roughly. like we don't have her address, but we know roughly where she is. So if we wanted to find her, we very easily could, if we wanted to talk to her, we very easily could. Now, how would you feel if she wanted to be a part of your baby's life? Let's say like five years, 10 years down the road. I think that's okay. Okay. And so my son is sixth now. Okay. He asks about her sometimes and we have pictures of her that we show him and we're like, this is your birth mommy you grew up in her tummy and then she gave you to us so that we could be your parents and he's like I want to meet her I want to know more about her and I'm like well that's her decision to make at this point so she checked in a couple of times after he was born maybe up to about a year and then that was okay that was it and it was mostly just text like how is he doing? How's, how's this going? That was it. Yeah. Send me a picture. That's really it. So we haven't spoken to her five years ish. Okay. And I don't want my son to interact with her until she's ready. So at this point he's way too young to really understand that she's not ready. So I'm kind of like hedging that line but if he's 15 and he's like i want to meet her i'm gonna be like okay yeah we can reach out to her and see how she feels about that right and again it's her decision you can't force yourself upon her but if you want to talk to her at that point go ahead yeah and if she calls us tomorrow and says i want to talk to my son and be like okay and then we'll chat we'll do We'll FaceTime. We'll go see her. I don't know. I'm totally fine with them having some kind of relationship because it is a relationship that could potentially exist. And I don't mind that it exists. Yeah. Like our son is very much aware that we are his parents and that we raised him and that he lives with us and that we love him. But you've got this other family out there that may want to connect with you someday. That's incredible. Yeah. Cause a lot of people I'm sure aren't like that. Yeah. It's hard. It is hard. It's like, I think it's worrisome in a lot of ways. It's like, you just don't know, you know, cause at the end of the day, everybody's just a human. Yeah. You know, and it's difficult. Do you guys want to adopt again? Are you just going to have one? You think? No, we're done. Okay. So we do right away when this one with my son was successful and we were bringing him home. We're like, no, we can't go through this again. because there's no guarantee. Like we can go through five more failures and then it just takes a toll on you every single time because you prepare yourself for the worst, but then the worst happens draining and it's draining. And it's just so much, it's a lot of money. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of emotional investment to be able to do that again. So I just don't think that we're going to have any more kids. We're done. And then when he came into your life, did you feel any more of that guilty feeling or sadness from the abortion? Or do you think that after the sessions with your therapist, you really were able to clear a big chunk of that? I think my sessions with the therapist really helped. I think that got me past so much of it. and then having my son in my life and having an adoption that actually was successful I think kind of sealed the deal like okay that chapter of my life is over yeah and now I'm gonna move forward with my son and I think too to look at it in a way of like I did something so good you know like I'm giving a child a great life yeah you know that wouldn't have otherwise maybe maybe not have had that, you know? And I think that's such a rewarding and special thing to do. Yeah. And I think it's just, it worked out the way that it was supposed to. And a lot of things went right too when it happened. So had any of those previous adoptions worked out, I wouldn't have had a paid maternity leave because my job didn't offer it for adoption specifically. And then the year Alex was born. So the last baby was born on Christmas Eve and Alex was born in April. The year that he was born was the first year that they allowed paid maternity leave for adoption. So I was like, all right, I get paid for my leave. Nice. And you can really connect with him and spend that time. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. So I got my paid leave. I got all, I got 12 weeks with him before we put him in daycare. Like everything just worked out the way it was supposed to. And he is so much my son. There's no other mommy for him. Like he has a birth mom. That's great. But I am his mom and he is mine. Yeah. And then, so that was six years ago. And then it was just recently that you kind of had, I guess this thought of kind of not resurfacing, but speaking out about just kind of your whole journey of it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I just felt like it was the time it was the time and it was something that I could share and maybe somebody could resonate with it. And maybe somebody who either had gone through or is going through a similar situation can, yeah. Even just like the adoption aspect or let, you know, like anything. Cause yeah, you know, I I really have been wanting to have somebody on the show to speak about the aftermath and the effects of an abortion because you know like I think that some people might get one and feel like okay this was the right decision even if they do feel that way it could still hurt and I think that it's important for people to know that it isn't just this cut and dry thing and sometimes you don't even know how it's going to make you feel until after you do it, which is the hard part, you know, like it can seem like a very black and white situation and then you do it. And that is a big thing. You know, it's a big decision and it's scary. And there's a lot of emotions held there. And I think that there's so many, I tell people this too. I know I said it kind of in the beginning and every other episode as well. And on my calls, but you know, there's always somebody that can relate to different parts of your story, different aspects of your story. And that's, you know, the beauty of sharing stories, sharing different aspects of it. That's why when I invite people on this show, I'm like, please share every part of your life, you know, because there's somebody that will hear that and be like, I felt that way or I went through that. And it's important. And even with the failure aspect of, you know, the adoption, it's like that could easily be something where you just want to give up because it is so draining. Right. But the outcome was so beautiful, you know, and I know it's like people don't always want to hear it, but things do happen for a reason. Things don't work out and do work out to get you to where you're supposed to be. And I think that, you know, once again, kind of going back to what I said in the beginning as well, you know, you've built this beautiful life for yourself. You know, you have your family, you could keep all this in the past. And while it is there, you know, I think that there's something incredible about taking what happened and using it now to help others, you know, and let people know they aren't alone because, you know, it's, it's so easy to just, you know, life is busy. It's very easy to just keep the ball rolling, push things in the back, push things in the back. But it is better to talk about things, you know, even if it is just a few therapy sessions, like it's not nobody saying like, you have to be dedicated and committed to speaking to somebody every day for the rest of your life. Like I think acknowledging that it's not fair for you to hold the guilt. It's not like life's too short, you know, like it's not fair to beat ourselves up, have guilt, have blame, anything. Because that takes away from other aspects of our lives, from ourself, from our partner, from children, anything. So I think that it's amazing that you made that decision as well because that's scary too, you know, like even to open up old wounds and be like, all right, where do I start? Like, let me just pour it all out, you know. And I think there is something empowering about that because you are able to to speak out about it and be like, wow, like I'm stronger than I thought that I'm able to go back through these details because it isn't always an easy thing to do. Yeah, it's not it's not always easy. And I think it's something that it's easier to talk to a stranger about. Yeah. Then to my family, because I don't. Absolutely. Because there's no there's not as much judgment there. It's like they're very unbiased. Like, just tell me your story kind of thing. Yeah. And I don't have to worry about them thinking about it later or bringing it up later or something like that. So there are people in my family that I've opened up to about it since then. Certain people I have not. Certain people who might learn from it from this. But it is what it is. And we'll talk about it if we need to talk about it. But I think it was more important for me to just talk about it in general because I feel like somebody else is going to go through this. Even if it's just one part of my story, somebody else is going to go through this. Right. And it, like I said, it really is something that, I mean, it's crazy, but like it happens every day. You know what I mean? And I think that there are so many different emotions or lack of emotions that people, and maybe the other potential too, is somebody might make that decision, not feel anything. And then five years down the road, it hits them. You know, like you never know how you're going to react to something when it's going to come back up and I think that it's okay to you can regret things but still not blame yourself right because I mean we have to be gentle with ourselves you know at the end of the day where we have to make decisions sometimes in that moment and it's very much based on where we are in life the people around us the support we have don't have and even though sometimes it's decisions that we make, there's a lot more that goes into it, you know, and it's not, it's just not fair, but it look where you are now, you know, and it does teach you things and it allows you to spread awareness and speak out about it. And yeah, honestly, you're an incredible storyteller. Oh, thank you. Of course. Like it's very, it's so, it's so amazing to me when people come in, they're like, never really shared my story before. And they're like, so good at just executing, you know, what they've been through and how they felt and the different moving parts of it. And I cannot express it enough. I tell people this all the time. It is not an easy thing to do. You know, you're coming to someone you don't know. So you're telling me and then you know that like there's a camera there. It's going to be online, you know, so it's it's incredible. It's important. And there will always, always, always be somebody that will appreciate it and can relate and is so grateful to hear your story. Because I always say, like, imagine if it was you then and you could just type something in And then you just hear this person's story and you're like, damn, that's exactly how I feel. It makes you feel better. Like, it's like, I'm not alone. I'm not a bad person. Like, you know, I, I always, I'm always so impressed with people's vulnerability when they're able to just sit there and just tell, tell people honestly how something made them feel. Cause it changes, it changes the trajectory to so many other people's mindsets about themselves and situations they went through. Well, thank you for having the platform. Of course. Yes, of course. I love it here. It's incredible. Like I, it has taught me so much. I learned so much about people. I learned so much about different situations. It's funny because I feel like I go through phases where, you know, for a, for a while I was able to really separate it, you know? And then like more recently I'm like more in tune with my emotions. So like I'll feel it more when I'm hearing stories and I'm like, God, this is hard. Like my eyes, but no, it's, it's incredible you know it teaches me so much and I'm just so grateful that I have a platform that's growing because of people real people's stories you know like we don't have enough of that I always say it's like yeah there's like documentaries there's this and there's that but it's like the more time that goes on in the world around us the more scripted right fake things yeah it's like you don't even really get the real story out like I used to love watching things like that now I'm like I watch it and I'm like I feel like I don't even really know more about this story or anything. Right. So that's why I always tell people, I'm like, whatever you feel called to share, like, obviously, people have kind of this one chunk of their life, maybe that they're like, okay, this is a story when I share, but I always tell people, I'm like, it's like a book, you know, if you got the book, and you just read the middle of it, what's the point, you know, it's like, you want to hear someone's background, what kind of led up to this, and then the aftermath, that's so full circle, you know, you get to see, you know, the some of the lowest parts people's lives and then some of the highest parts you know and it's so incredible and for me it I'm able that's why I like to go into a blindly because I'm like an audience member I get to hear it I get to ask and then you know it's it just allows me to be so open and judgment-free and everyone I wish the world was more like that because everyone is on their own path like what is judging you or anybody going to do for me it's not going to change my life you know what I mean so I just don't understand why people are like that and you know my goal is just to make people feel like they can use their voice and people can just listen and either learn or relate. And it's as simple as that. Like it doesn't have to be anything else, you know? And it just, I think it's very, it's very simple. It's very raw. It's very open. And I just want it to grow for you guys because I'm like, I'm like, I wish I like a lot of my episodes, you know, I'm like, I wish they'd get more views. Like I want everybody to like hear and see these stories because there's so there's like thousands of people that can relate to each one. But I want all those thousands of people that I can relate to to get out to them because it's like, sometimes that makes the biggest difference, right? You know, like just to not feel alone. And I feel like, of course, you can go to therapy. And that's great. But there's nothing like somebody that just gets it because they went through it, too. It's like a different little community there. And I feel like it doesn't even have to be, you know, two people talking, but it's just like, oh, I can hear it and I can support this person and, and be like, wow, I get how she feels or he feels and vice versa. And I think that's the beauty in it. And yeah, it will reach many people. I'm so proud of you. Thank you so much for coming out here and wanting to share your story. It means so much to me. Thank you for having me. Of course. Was there anything else you wanted to include? You think you got it all? I think I got it all. You did amazing. Thank you.