Epstein Revelations, Ja Rule vs. G-Unit, and Symone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels

what is up higher learning is on is i van latin jr and it's me rachel and we got cousin logan in the house today it's all star so logan murdoch is in the crib what's up logan how you doing brother what's going on man what's happening with you bro i'm really scared because last time i was on here you talked about shaving your balls and i think that's why oh logan i think that's why i'm back here. I wouldn't even think about that. Because I need to be far away from that. But I'm out here. I'm trying. The co-host seat right there. We got the shot back there. But the reality is I wasn't even thinking about that. Now I'm thinking about it. Now see Logan. See you're going to you know how it's in the back of his mind. Now something sexual will It's not sexual. What's sexual about shaving your balls though? It's not sexual? It's not sexual but it is It's personal. I don't know. I don't know what the word is. This is my thing. And once again, we're not going to spend a whole lot of time on this. How about not any? I apologize. I didn't mean to do this. I didn't mean to do this. He brought it up. Okay, Logan, we're so happy you're here. But here's the thing, though. Happy you're back. Why? Logan, why are you back in town? Why do we hold it all in? Why can't we just talk about Shaden? We can. Me and Rachel. But it's just not right now. Excuse me. Me and Rachel are having a conversation right now. No, what you're doing right now. But she asked me a question. You cut us off. You asked me about you. He didn't ask you, actually. And I wanted to get into the conversation, but now there's a pander. Well, the people want to know. Logan's here, cousin Logan. They want to know what you're in town for. That's fine. What you're in town for, Logan? I'm here to see the sights. No, I'm actually here for All-Star Weekend. Quick plug, I am going to be judging the G League dunk contest. So, you know, tap in. Me and Howard motherfucking back on real ones that we do twice a week. That's enough promo, I think. But that's why I'm here. just to do some work and be here in Los Angeles. Do you want to go contest? It's going to be better. It's Rachel, who I think is from Dallas, right? I am from Dallas. Okay. I didn't know that. That's okay. I didn't know you were from the Bay. Yeah. Rachel. Off mic. The degree to which Rachel doesn't know her coworkers is funny. I know Logan. I don't know all the details. He actually went. So Logan, whose very existence is steeped in Bay. Y'all think I'm Baton Rouge McKinley. Logan is bay to the bay to the bay. Rachel goes, she's talking to Logan about the Super Bowl. She goes, how familiar are you with the bay? That's legitimately saying. San Francisco, to be fair. No, you said the bay. You said the bay. She said, quote, I don't know how familiar you are with the bay, but I was nuts. It's nuts. I was nuts. It's nuts. It's a nuts situation. Okay, let's get into the show. Oh, we have Simone Sanders and Eugene Daniels second on the show today. new podcast clock it um it's presented by ms now it's on all platforms and stuff like that we're gonna talk to them about some things later on these are two individuals who are very adept at talking about and really distilling information's information's information about politics and politicians because they work with so many in an entertaining way in an entertaining way but we're gonna do quick here first up donnie where you at let's talk about pillow fights let's talk about pillow fights and ja rule versus g unit is back in the culture it was reignited on a delta flight when ja rule was confronted by tony ayo and uncle murda it could have been the other way around but uh it led to ja rule allegedly throwing a pillow at yayo before being rebooked off the flight i'll play a little bit of their back and forth and then get y'all's reaction suck ass suck ass suck ass suck ass hold on for a second do it again oh my gosh we gotta bring that down into the podcast hey hey hey see that to me shows you guys that y'all don't give a fuck about me do it again y'all triple I can't hear the triple boom I can't hear the triple boom do it again I'm so glad the bachelor doesn't have a theme song I can't hear the triple boom do it again do it again I can't hear the triple boom I'm gonna freak the fuck out okay Donnie, y'all be doing shit like this on purpose. I know, by the way, I know that I'm the underdog on this part. Everybody else is in the back. I'm going to be like alive. When I heard the pre-tooth, I was like... Don't play the triple boom. By the fact, I'll let y'all know something. There's a lot of people out there, right? Just to let y'all know this. When I see my friends and stuff like that, people that I know, and they do a spot on TMZ, I'm viewing for a while. So it's wrong for them to do that? It's not wrong. I don't want to see it. And so if I see you. Mute TMZ. I did. Okay. I can't mute the whole thing because, like, you know, sometimes Dom will pop up on there. Sometimes other people will pop up on there. I'll see you for a little while. I'll meet you for a little while. It's a little bit. I have an interview next week on TMZ. Oh, that's nice. I got a question. You going to mute me? No. I don't. I don't have one. Oh, you don't have a problem. I'm just kidding. I don't. I don't. I got a question for the panel real quick. and you guys are obviously like oodles more famous than i am right so how do you guys deal with like being online while muting shit about you guys online i don't mean anything about you online no i don't mean i don't mean anything about anything about me but i like to stay kind of tapped into what people are saying about me yeah i don't read comments but i just like want to be in the know i want to be a part of communities where things are being discussed so like when i used to go on the reddit i thought that that was going to be i was going to be a part of the community we talk we do all kinds of things like that and it wasn't well it's their reddit and so they actually i feel like being on a reddit where about your podcast is now think about it is lame as fuck because that's them that's they should be able to express themselves and talk about you what they like what they don't like all of that stuff i did go on the big picture reddit oh like last this week earlier this week i'm not a good thing or bad no they fucking hate me really yeah they hate me are you on the big picture that often i'm not they like when i'm on the show okay but my entire one battle after another the whole thing that's they movie man that's the one battle one battle after another is like the film bros that's they kobe did you see it logan what one battle after another no yeah so was that was that is like the new title of the ja rule tony ayo no no no is that what it's called but that that is basically what's going on okay so that's that because in that case yes i watched that that's they that's day kobe so you can't really say so they got mad that i was talking about kobe i went on and said what's up the film bros i love it whatever back to this rachel do you know where this comes from no hold on wait a second this is very interesting to me rachel one billion dollars on the line one billion dollars on the line. I want you to your best ability to talk about why Ja Rule, Tony Yayo, and Uncle Murder have been. It's a billion of, if you can explain this, if you can if you can either, if you can give the broad strokes, you get a billion dollars. From who? Don't fight the hypo. If you, broad strokes, you can get a billion dollars. Well. Come on. My guess would be that Tony Yayo and Uncle Murder are attached to 50. We aren't. Okay. G-Unit. G-Unit, yes. You're cooking with grease, Rachel. Okay. Okay. And so we know that Ja Rule and 50 have beef, right? Like it still exists. Yeah. So I imagine that it started years ago for whatever. I don't know why that beef started. but I would imagine that that's where it comes from years later they haven't gotten over it 50 still on Ja still on him so if G-Unit or anybody affiliated with Ja's Ja Rule is on site guess what Rachel Lindsay just made a billion dollars guys that's all you gotta know now we can get into whose kid got smacked whose house got shot up damn and we're working with Pillow wait a second that's what happened so here's the thing about this here's the thing about this this is some we're not going to do a whole beef documentary DVD type of situation but this is real shit between these crews that goes back a long way I will say this though Jha has come out and apologized or not apologized but basically apologized for not to Uncle Murder and to Yayo but for putting himself in that position said I'm a grandfather somebody that wants to move on and live a positive healthy life I should not be allowed I should not put myself in that type of situation who threw the pillow? they say that Ja threw it this is my thing I get that all of this is really real and that you know and there's been real shit that has happened and blood that has been spilled over this I really am wondering right now though despite all of that man how the fuck long can we do shit like this and when i say we i'm not putting this on me i ain't got shit to do with this but you mean to tell me it's so up right now in this situation that we're gonna have these three men who all of them in hip-hop in hip-hop i have a lot of respect for it that type of situations going down in delta one that's what i was gonna say like just just just like just we can't sleep lay down and then if you want to get busy get busy i don't know what the fuck is going on just like i saw that and i actually felt bad about it i understand i just feel bad that you you have to hold on to that type of negativity for that long I did not want to fuck with nobody not want to be around nobody this has been going on for such a long time I would love to see and I think a lot of people would love to see some kind of way to be able to let this shit go man I don't know I don't know I get it Logan um first of all it was just hilarious that it has devolved into a pillow fight on first class. I would be fucking pissed if I'm just trying to chill and, you know, have my flight to New York or wherever. And I'm, you know, I'm just chilling. I'm about to, you know, got my pillow. I'm about to fall back. And I just see three dudes out here just like filming each other and throwing pillows and stuff. Part of me, like as a child, I'm like, the inner child of me is like, this is like crazy because this is like what the manifestation of this beef has become. But But the other part of it that I that I just think about, like in terms of like how this gets resolved, I think a real a model for all these parties is what happened between Gucci and Jeezy. Right. Where they can both exist in the world and not necessarily have to go at each other all the time. But I think that's just the media market in the media world that we're in right now. right where life with social media life has become like the biggest reality show no matter what right like as soon as this ends Tony Ayo is getting on with Vlad TV and then like they're leaking stuff to TMZ about videos and just trying to get ahead of the narrative for people on the internet where this all started as like we all just trying to get to wherever we're trying to get to and it's just evolved and that there was just so many places that I could take it but I think that they honestly should just be adults and kind of just we got beef it is beef but like when we see each other we don't gotta necessarily like fight each other we just like live in the world i don't fuck the deal is like i get that the beef is serious i understand the beef is serious yeah bullets have flown all kinds of things happen the beef is serious i understand that but don't the healing have to be serious too like to me i get it man it's a bunch of people that's gonna listen to this and be like van don't understand understand street shit van don't understand hey got it y'all got it y'all got the whole thing right y'all don't understand like if uh if it's a serial killer in my neighborhood i'm gonna call the police right that's i'm not straight like you know that's i'm not you know um and i don't like the cops and i don't but i'm not straight but what i'm saying is i get that we take the beef series that we understand it is real shit why people don't like each other my question is do we take the healing serious is it serious to heal is it serious to get over it is it serious to move past it how serious is that can we set aside some seriousness for that part of it. I agree with you. But when you talk about it, and I think of G-Unit, I think of 50. And he doesn't let anything go. He doesn't. So I think that that conversation almost has to be directed to clearly the person who is the face of it, who has had the most success from the group, who seems to be, I'm not, well, I don't know about that part, but just seems to be like the leader of it. And he is constantly not letting things go and trolling people, not even to the point of just holding it on internally, but making a public display of it all. So, like, your question is well warranted, but it's like it also needs to be directed at because, like, we don't necessarily have this conversation when we see 50 do something on social media where he's constantly doing stuff. I mean, I'm glad that the Diddy documentary came out, but I'm just saying it was also a part of him just holding on to stuff. He's constantly doing this. So I think it's a bigger conversation to have within the community. But also it's with this, too, it's like the I didn't even know about the part about leaking stuff to the media and trying to get ahead of a narrative, which is almost also like nobody's even really talking about G-Unit like that or job role. And so, like, for this to be the conversation that we're talking about or you're trying to leak more information and bring more attention to it is wild to me. But just the entire setup of it all. Right. You touched on it when you said Delta One. You guys aren't in the streets. It's not that life. You are riding in, it's better than first class, in Delta One, in live flats, where seats are several thousand dollars. And you're bringing in, like, so it's like, what are we fighting about? Like, you've elevated to a certain level. You are clearly doing better for yourselves than when you started in all of this. and you're going to argue in delta one and fight with pillows that's an l right there and the second l is the fight was so intense ja rule had to rebook his flight well i mean that's a whole another thing he missed the flight so this so this is what i'll say to all of that number one once again we thought about it earlier before we got on here if i see something from tmz i'm muted right like it if i see something from why would i do that the reason why is this when i got fired from tmz tmz went out of their way to make me look like a rampaging white boy choking thug it was like me whatever happened all of that stuff it is what it is but everybody knows everybody knows that's not me and i felt a significant amount of betrayal um from a place where everyone knows me and they still went that route that is what it is okay like the healing doesn't even have to come from not liking somebody the healing doesn't even have to come sometimes the healing is knowing how to comport yourself in a way that you don't allow yourself to get triggered like healing is a that go rule they go murder they go yeah yo we on the plane fuck it even if it's even if you take a video and post the fucking video but all of that that tells me that them feelings are still live right and look it's all kinds of shit behind it it's shit where people didn't allegedly been hit with bullets and there's like there's all kinds of shit behind it i get it i understand it but at some point man you you can't live in 2000 2001 2003 no more i just can't do it i have a question um how did what do we think about just like there's also a version of this where you know when you are in the public eye like you want to continue to be in the public eye especially if being in the public eye is your the your business Right. And in the name of the business is keeping the spectacle going for your brand. Right. How much do you think of that is playing a part in this? Right. Because as soon as this happens, like Tony Ailes, like I said, going to Vlad TV to talk about it. His whole brand over the last two years has been very entertaining. But like it's let's talk about the good old days. Let's talk about eating duck in Morocco. my question is how much do you think this is also a version of that where we're just trying to just keep the spectacle going because that's how we get more attention for ourselves that's how we you know 50 is the head of this and he has been honest in saying that you know sometimes he uses beef just to you know market himself and like even beef with others whether it's real or not to market himself how much do you think that played a part in keeping just the spectacle going so everybody gets more attention for whatever their business is. How much do you think that played a part? Yeah, that's definitely a part of it. That's a huge part of it. I will say that even though you can acknowledge that that's a part of it, and also acknowledge that it's really not an explanation for how fucked up that looked. Like, man, there are a lot of conversations. I know people died out on it. I know this is rich coming from me with my history and my past, but man, we don't have time for 50 Roberta and Yayo in first class right now we don't man and like when you see Ja Rule come out and say yo that's not how I want to be I respect that like I respect that I also I honestly I honestly hope that even if this animus lasts forever that they can get in a situation where they're not so triggered by everything that's going on that. Yeah, you hope so. Casey Wasserman, are you aware of this? I have been looking at it, yeah. Donnie, say something about Casey Wasserman who get into the story, Donnie. In that huge three million something page dump of Epstein Files, they show that Casey Wasserman, who is a powerful entertainment and sports executive and head of the Wasserman Talent Agency, exchanged She emails with Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell years before her conviction. In response to this revelation, artists, including Chaperone and Orville Peck, have publicly cut ties with Wasserman's agency or called for his resignation, saying that they can't be represented by a company led by someone linked to those documents. Wasserman has not, though, been accused of any crimes. So it looked like he was fiending for some Ghislaine. Yeah, it was. but it doesn't matter. People are still upset. It doesn't matter. Yeah, hell no. I'm looking at Orville Peck. I don't think I knew Orville Peck. He got a mask on. He the Lone Ranger? No, he's... No, he's not so... He looked like the Lone Ranger to me. There go Orville Peck, right? He got the white hat. He got the mask on. He's widely known for often wearing a mask and not showing his face publicly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a country singer. He's picking it up. Yeah, yeah. He left. He said he can't fuck with a chaperone left. A lot of people are leaving. They're not fucking Wasserman like that. Yeah, they're not. But I think the bigger story is like Casey Wasserman and his ties to the Olympics. And people are upset. You know, obviously anybody's name who's mentioned, you know, it causes people to raise an eyebrow. And then when you dig into how is your name mentioned? And no, in the files that we have so far, his name isn't mentioned directly to Jeffrey Epstein. but it is to Ghislaine Maxwell, who we know is serving time in prison for sex trafficking. That is not the subject matter of their emails. It's the two of them together, which he was married at the time, but it's still this link, right? It makes people maybe assume facts that aren't there or at least causes people to say, hmm, well, what are we not seeing? It opens the door for what wasn't in the email. How long did you guys talk? What kind of you obviously talked in other ways outside of email. Just you can tell that from the way of the conversation. So how long did this relationship last? What you know, like who else was involved? What what things were you doing when you were hanging out with her? We know what she's about. But it just leaves the door open. And I think that that's the problem that people have. I think the problem also people have is that there are L.A., Los Angeles politicians who are calling for him to resign from the L.A. 28 board in regards to the Olympics. And he is not, you know, he said he deeply regrets the communications he had with Gisley Maxwell, but he has not offered to step down. He has not said anything in regards to his company, which leaves the employees and the company itself having to deal with this backlash and losing clients and losing brands and business and all of that. And so I think people are like, we want to see more from you. And people are saying they want they're kind of holding the la 28 board uh to a certain standard and saying there are all these prominent people in business and in sports and entertainment that are a part of this who are backing casey wasserman because they're not calling for him to be removed from the board which you know i see i i don't know i don't know how to love that so one so one of the the emails. This is in 2003. It says, Casey, I will be coming back to New York. Let Logan read it. Logan, you want to read this? Read this email. Well, we don't have an email for him. Oh, okay, okay, okay. So it's like, Casey, I will be coming back to New York tomorrow late afternoon. I shall be wearing a tight leather flying suit. P.S. Whilst in New York without me, what would you like to do? What time will you land? I think of you all the time, so what do I have to do to see you in a tight leather outfit? I'm in New York tonight. You're not. What am I to do? XOXO. Okay, so look. Who wrote that? Galane wrote that. So a lot of people are saying that is evidence that Wasserman was actually looking not just for a little fun time with Galane Maxwell, but a little fun time maybe with some of the people that Galane Maxwell could provide to him because it seems clear there that he said, hey, you're not going to be here. I'm going to be there. You're not going to be there. What am I to do? Like, what's going to happen? And then she kind of answers back in kind. People are thinking maybe in some sort of way he wasn't just seeing Glenn Maxwell, but then also was taking advantage of the services that she should provide. Yeah, at least open for interpretation. You guys should know that he runs the Wasserman Agency. We've talked about this before, but he is a legacy at this. he founded Wasserman but like his grandfather Lou Wasserman is a gigantic name in talent management and this is one of the Los Angeles elites the story is interesting for me for two reasons number one we've talked about the Epstein class and the blowback that will come for being a part of this there's a hesitancy there that I'm seeing from a lot of different people Peter Atiyah who is a wellness doctor who also has had close ties to Epstein was supposed to have a new job, a new role with CBS and while that role and that job after these files seems to be in some sort of peril you also see Barry Weiss and the people over at CBS a little hesitant to make that move consequences as it relates to being involved near wrapped up into this whole thing they're slower to come than people might think that they are like to your point there haven't been any new cases brought right at least as of yet there's a whole bunch of talk about what these unredacted files are going to mean and even socially we've identified a lot of people that we're in this world but nothing's happened yet until now you're seeing major major some smaller things have happened but you're seeing uh major talent major stars move away from wasserman and his group so i don't want to be involved with them anymore and you're seeing the town at least partly put the la 28 olympic committee in traction about their connection to him I think once a move like this is taken and somebody actually pays, that the floodgates could be open for accountability for a lot more people that had connections to Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And I think that's the hesitation. I agree. You know, it's like once one person goes down or once someone folds in regards to holding someone accountable, then it's like fair game for anyone else, which is a crazy thing to say. Because at the end of the day, you know, I don't know what's going to happen with, I mean, Washington's name, it's on the agency. You know, you might lose clients or whatever, but I don't think it's going to completely take away from what they're doing over there or take the business away. But he was so involved with the bid to get the 2028 Games and led a successful campaign and is so behind, you know, as a chairman overseeing the organizing, the planning, the financing of the 2028 Olympic and Paralympic Games that it's almost – I'm sure the board is like, how can we remove him when he led this campaign to get it here? He's been overseeing everything. They're looking at the business of it all. And are hesitant, to the point that you're making, about removing someone or him with that kind of power, which goes back to how the people that are being named are all in this certain class of people. Steve Tisch, right now, the co-owner of the Giants, under a tremendous amount of pressure, particularly because it seems as if they're not just people like Wasserman who had close ties, were involved with Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. up but then there are also people who have lied about the degree to which they were close to them sure steve tish seems to have clearly lied about what he called a sort of brief relationship that he had with jeffrey epstein it looks as if uh the new drop shows steve tish sort of giving jeffrey epstein advice right and you have him and then you have another gigantic liar howard lucknick howard luck nick is a fucking liar guys okay howard luck nick is on record this is a member of trump's cabinet is on record saying that he didn't want to have anything to do with jeffrey epstein after a certain time and we know now from emails that that is a lie yeah so the question is is he lying to protect his reputation because we know all of this i'm sure that that's a part of it Or is there a deeper and more fundamental relationship between Lutnick and Epstein, between Tish and Epstein that these people don't want to talk about? Is the nature of the relationship what they don't want to talk about and not just specifically that there was a relationship? Because remember, after the late 2000s Jeffrey Epstein sweetheart deal given by Alex Acosta, there's not a lot of reason for anyone to have had association with him unless they didn't give a fuck about it. I will say this. There's a double-edged sword in podcasting around this, too. For some reason, Joe Rogan is platforming guests, maybe because he's had so many people from the Epstein class on his podcast. Joe Rogan is platforming guests who are doing a soft shoe here they're sort of explaining why the Epstein situation is different than people might have said that it was, they're doing a whole deal here, it's like a really interesting conversation that he just had on his pod with his guys talking about how girls sweeten deals and some of the, even the underage girls, that's a thing that exists in other cultures and you gotta consider that That happened on Joe Rogan's show. I will say this, though. If you read the new files, there seemed to have been, in 2016 or 2017, a direct effort from Epstein and the people around him to get to Joe Rogan. Like, we want to have dinner with Joe Rogan. We want to hang out with Joe Rogan. We want to do all of this stuff. it looks as if it looks as if I have to bring this up that Rogan did research on Jeffrey Epstein and said no there was another comic who did go to one dinner and then after the dinner went hey man this was cool but I can't fucking be around you there are people to say and for whatever bizarre reason that Rogan is I don't know if he's working on behalf of the president or I don't know if he's working on behalf of of elon musk or whomever that might be involved in that whatever reason that they're doing the deal on the podcast it seems like it's it's it's it's i don't have any ambiguity about what's going on there it seems like they're trying to uh soften the blow for this group of people but there are people and he seems to have been one of them that were offered uh entree into this world and said no yeah so that just makes everybody else look worse yeah that that just makes everybody else look, there are some people that went, nah, not for me. Yeah. I mean, you're right. When you talk about are you lying because of the reputation or are you lying because there's something to cover up? I think that when you bring up a Joe Rogan or you bring up even a Katie Couric who went to dinner and talked about, and I think she publicly talked about this before, but like it's in the files, how weird it was. And it was like, I don't want Any I don't want to be a part of it all. It's like you keep hearing these stories that people that were that maybe did go to a lunch and dinner or maybe went to a residence where he was involved. Talk about how strange and how creepy it was that they remove themselves. It seems to be a consistent thing. And then there are the people who didn't remove themselves, who continued whatever type of relationship. And it goes back to what I'm saying about Casey. It obviously the reputation thing makes sense. But the second part of it, it leaves the door, the room for open interpretation because you just don't know. And you're asking yourself why. When you felt it was off, you could have detached and you didn't. Did you stay because it was powerful? Did you stay because connection? Did you stay because, you know, you felt like you were being, I don't know, threatened in a certain way? Or is it because you just wanted to participate in the things that you were saying? The thing is, we don't know. well I think there's a couple of things here number one first of all I think I know why a lot of these people were saying if you look at the guys that are wrapped up in a lot of this stuff you're looking at a certain caliber of person sure but you're also looking at a person that Epstein could dangle this sort of boundaryless hedonism and abuse to people that liked the idea of being with younger women like when you hear some of these emails these people are like my god i can be my true self this is all the eyes wide shut we're masked fucking lizard people that like to drink the blood of the young this is all of it this is any movie you've ever watched where somebody walks into a room with people and then they walk into another room and then all of a sudden these people become these ravenous beasts where there's no sense of morality and y'all know I'm not trying to moralize, but there's no sense of even safety or who they just can become completely different people. It seemed like Jeffrey Epstein was an entry into that world for a lot of people, and they became addicted to it. He was a drug dealer, and that drug dealer was a certain hedonistic, abusive, perverse freedom that these gentlemen did not feel like they had the opportunity to express anywhere else. It also taps into when you talk about the addiction when people reach a certain level and they made so much money and they have so much power and they so connected and there almost like they get bored Like what else can you do what else can i connect to what else can i tap into that other people can do but i can do because i'm in a certain group or i have a certain amount of money or i know a certain person it becomes addicted to well what's next what else can i do that's what it seems like this is a part of it as well which is disgusting so let me ask you this and you know once again i firmly believe as logan does, that Jeffrey Epstein was a foreign intelligence asset. It just doesn't make any sense. Guys, nothing else makes sense. Just do your own research. I hate when I say this, but I hate to do your own research because every time you ask somebody to do your own research, they come back and tell you that the still water cures cancer or some shit like that. But if you look into Jeffrey Epstein, there's really no accounting for why he became so rich. He definitely was a master investor. Maybe could have been a master launderer. Somebody positioned Jeffrey Epstein in the place to be who he became, which was someone that had all these types of secrets and had all this access to all of these people in so many different disciplines. We'll have to go back over that. It seems like you've turned a corner on the Epstein thing. I've changed my tune completely. Yeah, we know that you haven't really looked into it. No, it's not that. Yeah, that's what happened. We knew that the whole time you were sitting over there, you really hadn't done the work. Okay, is that what this is turning into? Nah, we knew that as soon as you picked it up, you was going to be with us. That's what we knew. It's not that I'm not with you. First off, I'm not reading through millions of pages of documents. And I'm not staying up late at night like you, typing people's names into the search bar trying to figure out. Did you put your name in? Did you put my name in? I put your dad's name in. Damn. The judge. Of course. Because you know if you did, because you know you used to always make the joke, oh, he was fine on the plane. You used to always make that joke. He's friends with Bill Clinton. He's not. Bill Clinton nominated him as he does many of district judges on the federal level. I'm messing with you. But I'm not you typing in into the search bar trying to figure things out. I realize that's my job, right? I think, but here's the thing. It's not... It's my job. It's your job to stalk your co-workers? It's my job. It's my job. To look up their parents. It's to look up... No, no, no, no, no. I didn't really look up Rachel. I don't believe Rachel. No, just for... You put your name in, didn't you? No, I never put my name in. I knew I wouldn't have run that. The only way Rachel would have gone to the Epstein party is if it was sponsored by Fanatics. And you know what? And guess what? And guess what? you know who was party I didn't go to for Super Bowl? Who? Fanatics. See? I actually wasn't at the Fanatics party. If we were sponsored by Raising Cane's, you would have been? It wouldn't be. I definitely wouldn't be. It wouldn't be. It wouldn't be, so I'm not even going to entertain that. But what I'm saying is, like, yeah, I'm interested in it. It's not that I'm not, like, obsessive over it, right? Like you said, like, there's nothing. If something drops, you're stopping everything to do it. For me, I guess, I obviously think it's necessary. As I talked to, we talked to with Ro Khanna when he was here, that somebody has to keep that pressure and somebody has to keep that foot to neck. I agree with that. I think my frustration comes in. There's clearly something that's going down here. There's clearly something that you're keeping from us. But when you have the president who's they're saying whose name is mentioned over 38,000 times and you have an administration that we see continues to protect him and make excuses for him and they continue to deflect for him, it became frustrating for me. of I want the people who are in the fight to keep fighting but for me I was just I'm just like I'm paying attention to it but I'm focusing on other issues that I feel like are just as important you know so that was my thing until I watched the bondi hearing yeah see hell yeah and I was a little mad at myself because I'm sure I come off as a little flippant which I want to be very clear I'm obviously very concerned about the victims and upset that their information has been put out there. And they seem to be, they are the ones who suffered and who were impacted and who were harmed, yet they're the ones not being protected in all of this. That's very frustrating to me. But I feel like I'm flipping as in like, here we go, some more stuff, because I'm like, we're never going to get to the meat of it. We're never going to get where we want to. But then I saw the bonding hearing, and I was not shocked because we saw her do this with the Senate, but I think I was just, it was how rude she was, how condescending she was, how childish, that she was clearly lying and just very unlikable. And there was such a clear deflection of every question that was asked of her that I thought, okay, I think how could you watch this and not be like, who are you protecting and what are you protecting? The purpose of the Department of Justice is to uphold the rule of law to keep our country safe and protect civil rights. The role of the attorney general who acts as the chief legal officer and top law enforcement official who is representing the public interest in legal matters and who the key purpose is advising the executive branch and prosecuting crimes and enforcing civil rights. How can that be the purpose of this department that Pam Bondi is in charge of? How can that be her role? And there was nothing that showed in that hearing that she was there to protect the public interest or uphold the rule of law to keep the country safe, which she said in her opening statement. She said that she is about protecting America. She gave all these examples about how crime is down and how her goal is to protect America. But you're sitting in front of people who were harmed, who were violated. And you can talk about protecting America, but you can't talk about protecting Americans like the sexual assault survivors who were sitting right behind you. And you couldn't even turn around and apologize or face them directly. It was the most pick-me behavior that I have seen in a long time on full display. And she is a living example of why the patriarchy can continue to exist because it is helped and big-upped by women like Pam Bondi. It was so disgusting the way that she was acting, clearly trying to seek the approval of men, but particularly one man, Donald Trump. And as I – I don't even have to list all the things out. I mean, we can talk about them as we continue to have this conversation. But all the things that came out during the hearing of whether it was you're not giving all the documents and asking why. Who are these co-conspirators and why aren't they being investigated? Are they being investigated? Okay, well, where are you in this investigation? Just a laundry list of things that were coming out or lies that were told by Kash Patel that since more documents have come out have proven not to be true. And all you did was turn pages in your burn book and point out to each politician that you were talking about, about what was happening in their district or bringing up the Dow Jones or whatever it may be. And it was clear that she was about prioritizing the stock market over sexual assault because that's what she was there for, about the Epstein files. She was clearly about prioritizing personal attacks over facts. And I just feel like this hearing revealed so much. And if your goal was to have this platform where you were going to stand toe-to-toe with Democrats and call them out on, quote, unquote, their hypocrisy or things that you feel like they're not doing right and are not for the benefit of this country, I think you fell tremendously. Because all it revealed to somebody like me who might have felt like, oh, there's so much information or this is the Trump administration who's just protecting him, it enraged me. I thought it was embarrassing that as somebody who took an oath and who practiced law and who used to revere these positions within our government, it was embarrassing for me to watch this woman call herself an attorney general. It was just – it really made me upset to watch. And you have reinvigorated something for me, or maybe not even reinvigorated, just lit a fire in me that maybe wasn't even there, about now I'm tapped in. And I think it had the opposite effect to a lot of people, maybe who felt like me or maybe who didn't want to read all the files and all this stuff was coming out in a way that was a little bit more digestible to them. And they're asking the questions, what is going on? And if you if you are the party of transparency, why are you not being transparent? And why can't you answer simple questions if the goal is to protect children, to protect victims and to call out this elite system or these corrupt politicians that exist? Instead, you were hiding it all. And I think that this personally, this win, this hearing was a win for the Democrats. or tapped in well I'll tell you something about the way I look at it I mean it didn't make me mad because you know there's this great part on this Jay Electronica song and it comes from Willy Wonka and the Chalker Factory I think and it says do you marvel at a bird when it flies do you marvel at a fish when it swims no because that's what they were made to do like when you see someone that is serving their function that's what they were made to do that's what their purpose is Pam Bondi was not just the attorney general of the United States of America. She also was the Attorney General in Florida from 2011 to 2019. And during her time as Attorney General in Florida, she did not bring state-level charges against Jeffrey Epstein. Pam Bondi is right now, Bondi, she is in the position that she is in purposefully as number one reward, in my opinion, for not doing that. Just as Alice Acosta was elevated to a cabinet level position for the sweetheart deal that he gave Jeffrey Epstein he was rewarded for the way that he handled that. She was rewarded by being able to lead the DOJ because of the fact that she went easy on Jeffrey Epstein. Her purpose her flying as a bird her swimming as a fish is to do what she did in front of Congress. That is what she is there for. She is there to do that. All the other shit that we are talking about in terms of how these people are supposed to function, no one in Trump's orbit is there for that. Hexeth isn't there to restore lethality to the United States Armed Forces. Lutnik, Besant, all of these people aren't there to figure out what's best for the United States financially now Pam Bondi isn't there to protect and uphold the rights of victims or to do any of that other shit that's not why they're there they're there at the whim of the president to destabilize to act upon the president's goals and wishes and they're being rewarded for the fact that in the past they have exhibited the ability to do that Pam Bondi is being rewarded for the fact that she took it easy on jeffrey epstein for an entire decade and she's taking it easy on him now because all of this shit is set up in a gigantic reward structure that rewards people for protecting this shit that has been going on yeah that is why singers and actors and people of the light that just go hey i don't want to be around this that's why people empowering themselves with the knowledge of what's going on and asking questions about the luminaries that they respected and there are going to be guys some people that you really love that are going to be involved in this stuff there's going to be the best that you can do is ask questions about the depth of their involvement when they knew what they knew all of that stuff that's why it's actually incumbent upon you to be a part of the responsibility that you want to see from the powerful. And not just in this Jeffrey Epstein thing, period, man. We keep talking about this. We're going to talk about this with Simone and Eugene about how we get past identity, about how we get past our own bias to just get to what works for people. James Van Der Beek died, right? Rest in peace, James Van Der Beek. This has nothing to do with Epstein. James Van Der Beek died, right? now there are people talking about their opinions about James Van Der Beek his politics and all that stuff so people are talking about his wife was an anti-vaxxer James Van Der Beek might have been mag or whatever rest in peace to Mox, to Dawson to James Van Der Beek who died of cancer rest in peace he passed away, he was an actor that had to have some means, right? I'm not saying he got rich, but he was probably doing better than the average American. He has passed away. And his family is crowdfunding. I know. I'm looking it up right now to see how much. His family is crowdfunded from the children. They could be up to a half a million dollars a day. Right? 1.6 million. 1.6 million dollars in debt no no raised excuse me raised so far um which is fantastic right we we care about james vanderbeek we care about dawson we care about jonathan moxson care about the kids we care about the kids right wife all of it do you have any idea right now i'm not about to start preaching we'll make this short do you have any idea how many people in america right now are stricken with cancer or stricken with other diseases or living with chronic diseases that are going broke because the american health care system and they never want no tv shows for you they didn't dance or sing they kids right now are going to have to live with tremendous debt and burden you don't know who they are it's luck if you hear about them it's luck if anybody gives the fuck about them because we won't address fundamental issues cracks in the american system of how we care for one another and about the priorities that we make important we talk about a whole bunch of other things except is it fucking right for somebody to die because they get sick and the same way that the powerful insulate themselves from criticism and investigation about the children that they are abusing they also insulate themselves from investigation about the systems that they have created and participated in that continue to immiserate Americans generation after generation after generation a lot of these fucking parties and stuff like that the secret parties a lot of them are sponsored by Pfizer like a lot of them have to do with Big Pharma and a lot of them have to do with big oil and a lot of them have to do with big whatever the fuck it is all of that stuff i'm criticizing all of this stuff sitting in my corporate chair in my corporate place in corporate los angeles i get it but i'm telling everyone out there that curiosity into the reason why the thing that you need to change won't change is the only thing possible that can bring power to account. And so for me, when I look at all of this, she's up there doing what she's supposed to do. She's already done it, which is why she was rewarded. And, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, sometimes I go too far, you know, talking about, you know, I'm a bleeding heart, I don't really give a fuck. Whatever, I get it, I go too far. I get it, I get it, I go too far. I get it, you guys feel like I go too far, everybody gets mad, Van wants everything to be free, blah blah blah blah blah tell you what though i know one thing i know that protecting children should not be controversial and also people going broke uh because they got sick should not be controversial either so i personally see a lot of through lines in all of these situations and i'm just wondering right now talk later about it i'm just wondering right now like it's like jerry mcguire you see that one yes i did i know you like that shit that's a race-coded movie why because a couple of reasons it's about true love okay which cares about football football okay rod titwell you're basically the rod titwell of the bachelorette am i yeah you rod titwell okay like you rod titwell and i'm like aries spears is rod titwell's brother i don't know i don't know if they ever really showed me the money who the bachelor yeah you got showed the money from some people though like you're doing good i've been to the crib i'm doing good because i worked hard on my own i know but what you are about to but you were like a raw titwell okay okay so i don't know who would be your jerry mcguire molly no who would be a jerry mcguire jerry helped who who who everybody should be asking you themselves this question who would be a jerry mcguire logan who's your jerry mcguire um zero is there all is there a uh white man going through a midlife crisis that has really helped you? Is it Connor Neth? Connor. You know who that is? You don't! Oh no, he's at the ringer. Who's yours? I don't know. He knows. He don't want to say it. In that situation, in the Jerry Maguire situation of it all, I just personally am wondering who's coming with me. Like Jerry said, when he got fired, who's coming with me? Who's coming with me? Who's coming with me? I think I'm with you. I think, and I think, listen, bottom line, watching this hearing, there's a cover up. If you didn't think it before, you had to see it. And yes, you were so right about Bondi and why she got that job and what her purpose was there for. And even if you, let's just say most people might not be familiar with her being the attorney general in Florida. And even if they are familiar with that and that's her resume, they may not be familiar with the fact that Epstein was being investigated while she was there and they failed to have any charges against him in the state of Florida. Like that all may be true, but most people probably don't know that. If they watched this, if they saw the news on this or this covered, I don't know how you can't watch it and ask yourself these questions of what's really going on and why is this so hard for you. Bottom line, at the end of the day, after this hearing, you cannot have watched it, watched snippets of it. It's all over social media. Watched it on the news coverage and not thought there's a cover up and there's a smugness and a hypocrisy that is existing within this administration that clearly was on display. and it's been on display, right? But it was so outright and outrageous that I don't know how someone, to your point, can't come with you. Can't start asking those questions. Can't be curiosity. It's why I've changed my tune. I watched it. I wrote to the group chat. I said, guys, I have to confess something. I changed my tune and I'm sorry. I should have been there from the beginning. I should have been there from the beginning. But now we got to get, I got to send you videos. I got to get you with Ryan Grimm, DropSite News. Shout out to Ryan Grimm, DropSite. Somebody referenced that to me the other day. I was like, hmm. Where are you at on Epstein, Logan? I don't know. Travesty. It's gross. Everything in it is gross. And it's repulsive. That's all I got. That's all you got? Yeah. And that's all true. Yeah. How does Epstein overlap with the NBA? If someone were to ask you this, Logan Murdoch, how does Epstein overlap with the NBA? Talk to us. Which NBA players would be most likely? I would say that remains to be seen, Ben. Rachel, I have a question for you. Real quickly. This is what Pam Bondi was doing in the hearings. Rachel, how do you deal with the awkwardness that, like, Ben just throws your way? Like, whenever there's, like, silent, quiet time, he just says some, like, wild shit that just puts you on the spot. How do you deal with it? Because that's what I'm trying to figure out right now. I was just, like, checking my phones. I was getting ready. We got the studio later that we're about to do a podcast on. I'm preparing for that. and then I get asked this question out of nowhere. Like, how do you deal with just the random, just awkward moments that he provides? It's a good question. And honestly, I don't even think about it. I've been doing this with Van for five and a half years now at this point, which is crazy to say. And I don't ever really feel awkward. You never feel awkward? I'm so used to it now. That's like every one time. I'm not saying it hasn't happened. we both did i think we like trauma bonded over maybe so you know what i mean but i'm just so used to it i'm like that's just man okay that's just man but i'm but you got to come more often and you too you too will i'm pulling up you know i'm here every time i'm in la and also second question to that question this is for me and van this is you know big bro little bro talk real quick what goes through your mind when like there's just an awkward silence is it just like i'm just going to make this weird as possible or is it like I really want to know your opinion about this I love I love inciting people and making them feel awkward because I feel awkward at all times I almost never feel comfortable yeah it's very difficult and so me making other people feel awkward is bonding and inclusive what about like okay what about like when i send you like random webby at like nine at night just to bond like that and you don't respond like when i just say like yo this is the shit remember like what normal bros do right like you know what i'm saying like when i just send you some like an article and i get no response but like let me can i just go to one of our text messages really quickly you can't i know i don't respond yeah you know you're not a good texter no no no no no He's a great texter. The Webby situation, when I hear the records, it takes me back to Baton Rouge. What happens is I don't listen to the records. I don't know what I was thinking. What did you say about Webby? This is something that like, okay, this is a perfect example, right? Because I'm a fan of the show. I watch this all the time. I saw the Joy Taylor interview, and I was like, this is really great work from both of you guys. So I was really happy about it. This was like July 25th. And I text Dan. I said, great job on the Joy interview. he responds back I've killed before and I'm just like yo bro you can't just say thank you you know what I'm saying yeah so let me help let me make you feel better when I didn't really know Van as well and we were supposed to start this podcast in March 2020 obviously COVID hit and it was pushed back and we didn't end up starting until May 2020 I don't know Van that well yeah so i'm trying to like get to know van and send text messages and i text van and i can't remember i might have said like hey this is rachel or you know like hey just seeing how you're doing and he was like who is this i don't think i said it's rachel i just assumed he had my number and he was like who is this and i'm like it's rachel and he was like and i'm paraphrasing this and you might remember but he was like no who the fuck is this like i got killers with me or something like that and i don't know him that well i know so i'm like so it was awkward but i was i was a little scared but i was confused and i was like is he playing i don't know his sense of humor like that and then he was like no i'm serious like on this on that on that i'll have people come up he's like starting naming all this stuff and he's like you don't understand what i do i and i was like to be fair to rachel he is from an open carry state i mean as you are too as i am too but it it's just So to your point, it's like, you got, like, Jade knows. It's like Bernard is learning. You say something like, hey, new Epstein files dropped or something. And Van will be like, balls. The shit is funny to me. I'm sorry. Like, the shit is funny to me. Yeah, he'll be like, I have a wedgie. Yeah. Like, it's just, and you just. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's funny to me. It means he likes you. I know he does. I'm just like, yo, man. I'm like, can we just have a conventional conversation? It's funny for only two-one. And I just be trying to bond with my dog. And, you know, like, you know. That is bonding. We bonded. I wonder how you do if somebody does it back to you. Like, you should reciprocate that. There's one person who does. Adam Friedland. Really? Oh, wait. Is that what I meant, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Adam Friedland is the one person. Adam, like, when I'm texting with Adam, Adam, like, Adam, Adam is, I aspire to be the comic off-puttingness that Adam can manifest. First of all, he's a lovely guy. He's a nice guy. He was great. He was great. He's a sweet guy. But Adam is the one that'll hit you up on some I can't believe Tupac died for this shit. And then he'll send you a video of some shit like this. Some off-the-wall shit. He's got a high-level comedic brain. You got a chance to meet him at the party. I did. And once he found out that I was on The Bachelor. He just had like a million wait, what did he say to me? He goes we're talking we're talking. I'm like, oh, you know, I'm divorced and then something was said and he was like, did you marry the guy from The Bachelor? And I was like, yeah. He goes, why the fuck did you do that? That's dumb as fuck. That's a paraphrase but that was the sentiment and I was like, I mean what can I say? You're not wrong. I was like, I mean you know that I go that is actually an appropriate response to me saying that yeah yeah no he was he was he was great y'all in these Hollywood ass conversations man we have fun look whatever you know whatever man you know we're having fun we're doing our best listen we have to get to our our interview with the co-host of the Clocket Podcast Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels II that's after this break All right, guys. Guest time. Special guests on the show, Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels. You already see them on MSNOW, but now you're going to see them and hear them. Something new. MSNOW presents Clock It. This is a new podcast where Washington Power Players will take on these two Washington Power Players. Power Players and Washington. They're going to take on the latest political news, the catchiest cultural moments, and how the two converge. It's going to be available everywhere today, February 12th. Yeah, no. Right now. Yeah. Congratulations to you guys for the new pod. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Let's talk a little bit about it. Like, you guys are veterans to being on Linear Cable News. What do you hope to explore new and fresh and different on your pod? Well, look, first of all, we love you guys. So great to talk to you all today. Look, I think what I think people are asking, like, OK, we see you on TV. Is it the same as television? We've had lawmakers already reach out and members of Congress like, oh, I want to get on the podcast. I'm like, oh, that ain't this podcast. I think what we're most excited about, frankly, is to bring people into the group chat. Eugene and I already have, you know, Eugene and I are always talking about work, about people at work, about what's going on out there in the world. And politics and culture, I mean, they are intertwined. It's not a sideshow. Culture is not a sideshow to what's happening in politics. It's part of the main event. So we're bringing people into our group chat, right, Eugene? Yeah, I think part of it is, and it came naturally because, like she said, we talk all the time. And what we both believe intrinsically is that these two things relate, culture and politics. And you can't pull them apart. And most importantly, we probably can do this podcast and we feel the need to do it during Biden because Donald Trump, unlike other presidents, understands that trying to arrest the culture and arresting the culture, having control of the culture is actually a better way to operate as a president and better in terms of getting what you want done. Right. If people see you, you know, having UFC fights at the White House, you know, the Trump Kennedy Center, if they, you know, you are seen as cool and interesting. Right. To a certain segment of the population, then what you do politically and policy wise is more acceptable. Right. And so that is we're going to explore that. We're going to explore the attacks on people that look like us and queer people. and what does it feel like in this country at this moment and have a little bit of fun but do it in a way that also matches the moment. And we're going to get into some of the news of the day. So on our first episode, we hit some of the headlines and then we get into a really great conversation with Tony Goldwyn and Miles Frost, which was actually, you know, it was good. Eugene at one point in the podcast asked Tony Goldwyn. I was kind of like, why are you asking that? He said, you know, you do a lot of projects with black people. What is that about? Black women. Yeah, Tony likes a very insightful. Black ladies. He likes it. He's been visiting the community for a long time now. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Go back to the 90s. You see him back there. Tony likes a little bit of, that's what I'm talking about. But he's all law and order now, so he's a little even now. Well, maybe. You said something interesting, because I know this is about how culture and politics intertwine. And you said you have politicians that are already asking to come on. And you're like, no. So are we gay? No politicians are going to be allowed on the podcast? We don't want to talk to them. No. We want to talk to them on our TV notes. I love this. Yes. Okay? Yes. We want to talk to people who are in the culture, right? Because we know the politics, right? Like, if you have a member of Congress on, one, there are very few of them who understand this topic to begin with, that culture and politics are intertwined. And there's very few of them, if any of them, that can actually have a discussion that feels real, right? And not trying to sell you on anything. And so being able to talk to people who are actually in the culture, who are in the zeitgeist in some way, shape, or form, to us, is a better way to talk about it. Because we hear politicians all the time talking about, you know, the culture and the way that they think about culture. But what's the opposite of that? So then how will working in traditional media versus working on a podcast, like, give you the different tools that you need to influence the conversation? Well, look, I think that, first of all, as you all know, you know, you have to meet people where they are. When I used to be a political strategist, we would always talk about meeting people at the barbershops, the beauty shops, and the Bible studies, which was basically shorthand for going to where the people are and taking your message there and trying to earn their vote. I think the media apparatus has to do the same thing. You know, we, you know, Eugene is still going to co-host his show on the weekend. I'm still co-hosting the weeknight. And a lot of times we'll have these amazing conversations on air. And then I'm always like, well, did we clip it? What are we clipping? What are we putting on social? Because there's so many people that only see what is on social. And social is a snippet of the conversation. So this podcast, and, you know, frankly, this is the first video. I would say the second iteration of MS Now in this video podcast world. Nicole Wallace has a really amazing podcast where she, our colleague, where she does one-on-one conversations with the quote-unquote best people, you know, play on Donald Trump's best people. But ours is, this is the first time we're having a group conversation and we're inviting people to have a group conversation with us about the news, yeah, but also about the cultural zeitgeist. So, yeah, we're going to talk to Tony Goldwyn and Miles Frost who have a play that they're doing together that Tony is co-directing. And Miles is going to talk to us about how Chadwick Boseman has inspired him and what these times mean and the assault on the culture. And that's not a conversation, frankly. You can get out of a cable news segment, but we are, and I would argue, Eugene has been interviewing people for a very long time, seasoned journalists in these streets. so he can really between the two of us we really going to pull out the kind of conversations frankly that we are all really having in our own group chats because it crazy out there right now And I think part of it is you know what we often hear the two of us from people that watch the show, some of our bosses, is that, like, you know, you guys boil down politics into a very accessible way. So that is, as you guys know better than we, like, that is the heart of podcasting, right? People don't come to listen to your podcast to hear a bunch of Harvard SAT words and have to look up the damn thesaurus. That's not interesting. That's not how people have normal conversations. And so that is also a part of it. That's what you ask about, the skill set. So that's the skill set we're taking from TV and upping it into the podcast. We want people who maybe they don't watch linear television to watch us on YouTube or listen to this on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or what have you. We want them to be able to get to and be able to understand the kinds of things that's going on because at the end of the day, Simone and I talk about this lot on our shows is that the arresting the culture is also something that authoritarian leaders do at the very beginning, right? Because they start giving themselves fake awards. They start naming things after themselves. They start, you know, because it is really important when you are trying to change the culture and the politics of a country to arrest the culture at the very beginning of it. That's something that we're seeing. So we're going to explore that. And I don't think the media landscape is going to be able to survive if they can't meet people where they are. To be very clear, I have a younger sister. It's a little bit younger than me. The girl does not watch cable news. Hasn't watched cable news for a very long time. Actually, doesn't even have cable at home, but she's on YouTube. People like my sister, she's engaged. She's involved. She doesn't think of herself necessarily, I would say, as a political person, but she cares to know what is going on and she seeks out what is going on in her own way, but she's not going to turn on a cable news segment, even though I got a damn show. There are millions of people out there like my sister. My siblings watch, okay. You got better siblings than I do. What do y'all think it says about politicians and the way we're communicating that you guys don't have the faith that they can come on a podcast and be relatable and have an in-depth conversation with you guys? Well, I disagree with you, Gene. I think that as someone who used to advise politicians i think they can come and have a relatable conversation i think he's 1000% right i think i think he's so right i think why because when we've had politicians on the show we talk to them first of all just so everybody knows if you know politicians in real life and then you interview them the whiplash that you get is oftentimes off-putting even when you fuck with them even when you like them and you will implore them hey man look we're gonna have a conversation just be the same guy and i promise you people gonna love it they cannot do it and i actually think that you guys are really hitting on something that's that's super interesting to me the reason why trump has been able to uh position himself promote himself brand himself the reason why people say fake news like it's slang the reason why people like maga is basically a slang word is because there is something that even though he's dips into so many different grotesque things that there's a there's a feeling that people have that he creates culture in this really weird way because they believe that he's authentically who he is i mean well it's not even a feeling like he has done it. The reason we even know Trump is because The Apprentice, he's been in movies, music, sports for like years. At one point, I believe Trump was the most mentioned name in rap music and this was before his ascension in his political career. So I think that there's a familiarity with Donald Trump who a lot of people knew him to be previously that colors what people think about him right now. And I mean that's a I mean, I don't agree with the president on, I think, 99.999% of things, but I will say he's a master marketer. And he understands how to market a product himself, even if it's a little raggedy product like those gold boots or the little janky boxes. But he understands how to do it, and that is because he doesn't come from the political world. And so I think for us, we don't want to talk to the politicians because our podcast is not a venue for you to come on and like. run for office. Yeah. This is a venue for you to come for. The guests we are having to come on and unpack some things, have a conversation that we are actually having. Now, maybe one day there'll be a politician that actually lives in the intersection of that. Truly, I don't. But for now, that's not what this is. The politicians are listening for sure, like they listen to your podcast. And they are taking their cues from this fear and trying to figure out how to break through but it doesn't feel like it and that's why i think to piggyback on what van is saying it's so interesting that you don't want them in there because if culture does dictate politics and we've seen that from the right i mean they hijack everything i mean they say fuck around and find out now which is which makes me sick about ice age that was a cultural That's our term. But if if if culture does dictate politics, I guess, where does what is maybe the hope with the podcast? Because, you know, you're having these conversations that we're having in the group chat with each other at the dinner table. So how do you merge the two? How can if they are listening and we're continuing to preach this message of you need to tap in, you need to meet people where they are. You need to be more relatable. How will your podcast do it? How or how in general do we get there? Because there's a disconnect. Yeah, I think part of it is that and Van, your point about, you know, talking to a politician before you hit record and what the person they turn into, you can literally see them like change. My brother speak and the change is visible on the thing. Sometimes I'll be wanting to tap them on the shoulder and be like, hey, man. Like, no, go back to that. Don't start telling me about who raised you in the single mother situation in 1975. I don't want to. We're not trying to hear that. No, but go ahead. Yeah, but, and so, like, their need to understand that the American people, the world, but the American people want realness from their politicians. And they've been saying this for years, right? Like, be authentic. You know, like people like Simone have been telling politicians for years to be authentic. But the authentic of what a politician sees as authentic and how everyone who is on the Internet all the time engaging with human beings understands to be authentic are two different things. I think you one of my issues with politicians is they often not all of them, but many of them see the American people. They don't they don't give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to understanding how this thing works. It's like they don't understand politics. No, they do. Because it's not just like do they understand it in the civics form, right? Do they read the books? Do they go to history? It is do they understand human connection? Do they understand back and forth? And, you know, something I say when I talk to young people who want to be journalists who are young, I say take psychology classes. Because actually, if you want to be and understand how politicians operate, how folks in the culture operate, how human beings operate, you have to understand how they think. And it's not, I think sometimes in the media we make things very complicated. or we try to put how we want someone to behave onto them and give them the benefit of the doubt that way when it comes to politicians. And that's where we make our mistakes, right? Like I think so many people, you know, when Trump puts out this Obama video, this racist video last week, right? He puts it out. There's so many, I'm watching so many people that I used to work with on the White House beat just throw out the excuse that the White House first put out, which is like not true. It's saying it's the Lion King. That is not from the Lion King. There's Rafiki. He's a baboon. But I think you have to, as journalists, as people with power and influence, stop just taking people's word for it and understand human psychology and understand the why. Why? And that's something I think we'll explore in the podcast, right? Trump will do something racist again and he will talk about it on the podcast. And it's like Yes this is racist, this is who he is But why is he doing it? Trying to give not politicians The tools but the American people The people who listen to the podcast The tools to operate in their daily lives So they can understand what's happening Because frankly politicians will listen We love everyone who listens to it But I'm much more interested to hear From everyday people Because in a form Look there isn't a it's crazy out there. There's an assault on our democracy and the Republican Party apparatus they have been very, very crafty in taking over various institutions and entities to the point where the Ellisons now own TikTok. Remember when TikTok was fucking up the other day? Okay, right after they bought it, we talk about what's happening with the Washington Post, who owns some of these local news stations. how people look at what happened to the site form they don't as twitter how people um get their information and the platforms of which they trust they are absolutely being influenced by our politics and vice versa so we also want people to you know clock that as well and if you understand that you are you you can i think maybe decipher some things better and i think the last one i want to make about the politicians is what we're not addressing and i think it's this conversation that we're having right now is that there's a generational divide. Because to be very clear, I think there are a number of young politicians who could come on, elected officials right now, who they don't mind sitting down in a space and place and being themselves. Because that is how they came up in the political world. Their entire political career has been centered on being themselves. But somebody like, I would argue, a former Vice President Kamala Harris, whom I used to work for, you know, there have been many times where I would put somebody in a room with her, somebody would have a meeting with her, and they would come out in the meeting and be like, oh, my gosh, she's so great. Like, what? And I'm like, yes, yes, yes, she's funny. Yes, yes, yes, yes, very hilarious. Yeah. And then someone will see her in an interview or in a debate stage or something else, and they'll say, hmm, I just feel like that's not the same person I saw privately. Well, Kamala Harris is a 16-something-year-old black lady. When she came up, the elected officials and the young people were not doing what we're doing now. And so I do think there's a generational thing there. but I think the politicians are clocking it that's why Gavin Newsom got his own podcast yeah that is a great point because if you grew up in the era where like a picture of Gary Hart like on a boat could completely torpedo an entire political career you can't operate in that era our president had sex with Stormy Daniels, shout out to Baton Rouge Baton Rouge still getting it done, Stormy Daniels that's Baton Rouge native, I don't know if you know that i did not know no no none of us did that's banroo nobody nobody is shouting out you know when we so so uh and now things are just different and i would hope that they would loosen up a little bit and try to meet people where they are and we all have to push them to do that i think we all agree let me ask you guys a question about something specifically that's happening the two of you have been around so many political campaigns, so many politicians, and I've covered this and talked about this for so long. What's happening right now in Texas is concerning to me. What part? The battle royale that exists between James Tallarico and Jasmine Crockett. Jasmine Crockett and James Tallarico. I'll tell you why. A lot of people aren't really paying attention to this because in the grand scheme of things, this primary is going the way primaries go. Primaries are vicious, they're brutal. Until you get to a general, you normally learn everything that you need to learn about a candidate. This is the way it's supposed to go. I will say in the last month, last couple of weeks, this one particularly has metastasized to me because now what we are doing is through the schism that exists there we're investigating real fissures that exist in the coalition of the left and the nut kicking that's going on right now not just between the two candidates but between people who have made this worldwide excuse me countrywide a referendum on safety on black women black men on racism on all of this stuff I'm not so sure that that entire situation right there isn't indicative of the real problem with solidarity on the left. And so my question is, from you guys' vantage point, what's your diagnosis of how that race is going? I think part of it is. I think you're right. It's going how primaries are supposed to go. I think that right when you get to the end, right, people are going to start voting here very soon and early voting. That's when people start getting a little nastier, especially when it's the closer it gets. I think what it really shows, the visuals that I see, other than like the obvious like racial and the way in which we see white men talking about Jasmine Crockett as a black woman. Right. That is a whole conversation in and of itself. But I think what you're seeing is the fight in the Democratic Party is no longer ideological. It is, do you fight? And what does that fight look like? And I think James Tallarico and Jasmine Crockett show two very different ways of how to do that, right? James Tallarico is doing kind of like an old school. I want to bring everyone together. I'm opening my heart. I want Republicans to vote for me. And you have Jasmine Crockett, who's up here in D.C., right? So it's also like where they're kind of coming up, who's up here in D.C. fighting with the president every single day and under and seems to understand that what the left wants is someone to fight out loud. Right. They don't want you to to, you know, be friends with Republicans that are raggedy. Right. You can be friends with the Republicans that are nice, but the Republicans that are here saying racist stuff and being sexist and all that, they don't want you to be friends with them. I think that is the biggest fight you're seeing. I think the stuff that bothered me about it is the misogynoir when it comes to how people are interacting and covering Jasmine Crockett and the way in which they speak about her. Every time I think that folks in the media or folks who watch and talk about these things have learned their lessons, right? They show me that they didn't want a damn thing. We went through this many times. I've been with Vice President Harris very closely. And we just haven't understood how those things operate. And I will also say last thing is like James Tallarico's kind of did he or didn't he call Colin Alvarez a mediocre black man? Right. Did he say he was a mediocre campaign or did he call him a mediocre black man? I think also shows there is a sometimes a misunderstanding with white liberals on how things are going to be perceived. Right. That you cannot just run against a person of color the same way you're going to run against the white guy. Had he called, you know, better or mediocre people, I think, would have been like, OK, whatever. But when you're talking about a black man or a black person, it's taken differently. And I think that's also a lesson that Democrats are having to learn. This is the first primary that we're going to actually see some like a real fight happening in the Democratic Party. And I'm not sure. I think primaries are really important. I think they're healthy. They're vital. Right. I think, you know, I think that, you know, I know that I know Hakeem Jeffries and them and Chuck Trumadoe want to hear this. But I think everybody should be primary. I think that's like. You think that your primary leader Jeffries? I think anyone should. I think people, I think it keeps you on your P's and Q's, right? I think it's not about is Hakeem Jeffries ready for the job. It is that everyone who is in office should always have to be looking over their shoulder at who's coming up next. Are the ideas that I'm presenting to my constituents still touching what they need, right? Am I still in the same vein as my constituents that when I came here 30 years ago, right? Did, am I still doing the same thing? Do they still want me? I think it's healthy, and I think both parties should be doing a lot more on the person. Well, look, there's so much I can say about this race. First, I will note, I think I am concerned about the, you know, I work for the highest profile black woman politician that was ever elected in this country. And so I just I think at this point I have seen it all. OK, I've been standing there where, you know, literally she was sitting there doing an interview with the mainstream. She is in Vice President Harris sitting there doing an interview with a mainstream outlet. And the seasoned journalist who happened to be a white woman is like, so your mother decided to raise you as black. And I'm like, oh, God, this is how we start. So this is it. I'm not surprised. that being said that doesn't make it right but that being said i do think that um because people that know people that are you know very well you know read people who understand that like uh the who have issues with like all of us who's misogyny that's coming up in this race that doesn't mean we should be above critiquing the candidates including congresswoman crockett like to be very clear she's running an unconventional campaign i i i as someone that's done campaigns for a long time, I didn't understand the launch video. But I also have said for a very long time that I think she can win this primary. But the way in which you win a primary is you go out there, you talk to the voters, you meet them where they are. I don't think there's been enough attention in this race necessarily nationally about what the candidates are actually doing on the ground. Because I would say on the ground, she is doing those things. But the conversation to me comes about, well, she's not putting ads on air. Tallarico has more money. all of these other things at the end of the day they don't matter to voters and while this has become a race that people speak about nationally it is the people of Texas the Democratic primary voters frankly that are going to decide who the candidate is and then the people of Texas are going to decide if they want whoever comes out of this Democratic primary or the Republican candidate now I think voters particularly there is nobody that turns into a pundit quicker than a Democratic voter in a freaking primary Okay? They become analysts. All of a sudden, they got numbers. All of a sudden, they're like, well, I don't know, the probability of so-and-so, so-and-so winning in a general election. But the reality is the person that will win is the person that, you know, that garners the most support. So you should vote for the person that you want to win, not the person that you think has the likeliest chance of beating a white man in a general election. And I think that's what's really at the heart of what's going on in this Crockett-Talrico situation. at the end of the day people privately let's just be honest privately they're all like well will white people vote for her I mean yeah people are saying and asking I mean to me last thing I'll say about it to me I'm sure that for people who are smarter politically that's a calculus I'm sure like or people that's that's part of it right like particularly after what we've seen with Donald Trump and MAGA I think there's a large part of the centrist democratic movement that just wants to pick the best white guy oh yeah and go into that and make sure to I'm like not concerned with any of that. I'm very I'm at this point. I don't think that I'm concerned with identity at all. I'm concerned with people not going broke because they got cancer with people having what they need. And so I actually don't want identity to get in the way of investigating candidates and making informed political decisions. And what I will say is that while as black people, we always have to consider how we are viewed when we step into rooms and into positions, we also can't let, to me, politicians do what they do, which is use every single aspect of themselves to shield them from criticism or investigation into who they are. I think Congresswoman Crockett is brilliant. I would like to know as much about her as I can before I cede more power I'm not in Texas before we make her more powerful doesn't matter whether or not she's black, she's a black lady all of this stuff Hakeem Jeffries, don't like him I think he should be primary by Donald Duck I would put Donald Duck in there but don't like him I can name a bunch of people a bunch of black men don't like these guys Don't like them. Don't think that they represent anything new, fresh. I don't even think they truly represent the will and the pulling that I see from their own constituencies. So what I'm saying is, while I will always protect black people, always protect black people that are going into situations where they're vulnerable, I'm not going to protect power that is using blackness to shield itself or insulate itself from criticism or investigation. Do you think Jasmine Crockett's doing that? No. I don't think Jasmine Crockett's doing that. What I think is that there are a lot of people that are doing it on her behalf. I think Jasmine Crockett is ready for any fight. I think Jasmine Crockett is ready for any fight. I think she's shown that. We've protected her when they've come at her specifically because she is a black woman. We've seen that and we've talked about it. In this situation right here, when we talk about the launch video and stuff, we got to be able to say, hey. It wasn't good. We got to be able to say that. That launch video was not a video that you launch if you were running for the United States Senate in Texas. That is not a video that says, I want to get your votes. And I'm okay with saying that. But I think other people should be able to say that. But I do think that some of the reason people get a little caught up is because sometimes the analysis there was, was it in the Times, an op-ed about how, why Jasmine Crockett shouldn't, is not the candidate for the United States Senate. And it was just washed over with a little too much. All right, now it's enough. I feel what you're saying. We see that before. Hey, that's a little too much there. Yeah. You do that. y'all saw the video where there's a there's a black ice agent and the protesters who are white calling him the n-word and the fascist and it's like not hold up now hold up now we uh pull back a bridge too far we don't okay ice is ice is out of control but watch your mouth there's a little like you know it's like oh don't go too far and i think that's what you're hitting on van that within the on the left like within the progressives you know i also used to work for Bernie Sanders and frankly sometimes the most progressive people they sound just like some of the worst conservatives like right wing conservatives in this country like the shit is real within the Democratic coalition and on the left but I do think that there are fissures and fractions within the leftist coalition but frankly that's what's going to happen in the Big Ten I think the Republicans are learning that very well because they don't let these MAGAs, the QAnons, there used to be maybe two factions in the Republican Party, now it has grown to the level that they can't control it all. But I do think that the conversations happening in Democratic primaries, they need to be, from the voters' perspectives, like we should be able to have this conversation without somebody saying, oh, you hating on Jasmine Crockett. Maybe I'm just putting out the facts on the table. Yeah. It's interesting, though, because I'm from Texas. And I know you talk about those. I have a Texas cap, too. Yes. Where are you from in Texas? Dallas. Okay. I went to high school in Killeen. Oh, okay. Is that legitimate? I need to know. I went to school in Austin, so you drive right through. Right through. Wow, look at this. He said he got a tattoo of Texas on his side, and I was like, I don't need to know. We have a lot of pride. I get it. I love that I'm from Texas. I love that. And so, Eugene, you'll understand this. And I'm curious as to maybe what you're hearing from people in Texas. I know, talking about this conversation, people in Texas who are having the black people who are having the conversation quietly of can Jasmine Crockett win in Texas? But then with everything that's happening, particularly in 2026 in regards to this race, it has been, well, now we have to protect Jasmine. I don't like the way that Jasmine's being talked about. Nobody's, the Democrats are not going to win in Texas anyway. So I'm going to vote for Jasmine Crockett because I don't like what's happening with this conversation. How do you combat that? Are these things that you're going to talk about on your podcast, I guess, to bring it back? Because, you know, I struggle with I see what's happening on social media. I see the conversation. I even get upset by it. And it's like, how do you sit down with that person or meet that person? You know, back to our conversation we've been having. When it comes to the feeling of I need to protect, I don't like what's happening, and I can't let these stereotypes perpetuate within, you know, political thinking. But at the same time, you know, you need to be able to discuss what's the race and like the real issues and the ideas going on within it. I think two things. One, I think that one, we are going to have these types of conversations on the podcast. So that's really important. But two, I think something Simone said a second ago is really important. I'm going to keep calling it that thread, which is that Democratic primary voters, whether it is in a Senate race, a House race, a presidential race, They spent a lot of time trying to gamify. And this is what this is what happened with Obama, too. Right. Like the only reason that Obama became the nominee was because he won Iowa and black people said, oh, why do you want to vote for this man? We liked him already, but now I'm a vote for him. Right. And so you see that I'm hearing a similar conversation in Texas, including the part about we want to protect her. I think that voters should stop trying to gamify. I think that voters should just be voting for who they want. If they like Jasmine Crockett because she's very ready to fight on all cylinders all the time, then vote for her for that. But because at the end of the day, Donald Trump is president, he's been president twice. And so like this idea about electability and the question that largely black people and black women get about electability, like we have to stop thinking about it in the exact same way. There are still more black and brown people continuing to grow in Texas. And if more of them voted, it would be a blue state. Democrats have been chasing Texas for a long time. But every time there's a new Senate race, you're seeing more people, more young people, especially who tend to be a little bit more on the left-leaning side, back in their eligible to vote. But they stay home. So, one, politicians have to give people a reason to want to come out in these primaries, have to give people a reason to come out in these general elections, and people should stop trying to gamify it, right? Like, don't do it because you're like, okay, if Paxton gets the nomination, then maybe it's a little bit easier, but Cornyn's tougher, so maybe we should do Tallerico. Like, just vote for who you care about, because at the end of the day, that's the only way that we actually change the system. If you want to change the system, you have to actually vote your morals, your values, and stop trying to gamify guests, especially trying to guess what Republicans are going to do. Because who the hell knows who's going to be cornered in the accent? Who knows? They should give Gary Chambers $5 million and send them into Texas and turn black people around. Gary's right. It's a lot of Louisiana people popping up in the conversation. Gary's right what Gary said was that he was talking about what we talked about we talked to Keith Edwards like concentrate on the voters in the state in the place that you're not reaching get to them turn them out broad coalitions of people who understand that government and systemically things aren't working for them the way that they should and that there are candidates that are empowered to make those changes and I think you can win you guys excited for your pod excited to have had you on higher learning you guys tell tell people once again where they can see it how they can get in touch with y'all visually audio wise all of that stuff yes clock it drop new episodes drop every thursday first episode is out today uh you can catch us literally wherever you get your podcast you can also go on youtube ms.now slash clock it you can see the podcast there you can find eugene and i on social media i'm at simone Dee Sanders, Simone with a Y. Eugene, where are you? Eugene Daniels 2, the number 2. Why is there a 2? Because I'm the second. And also, Eugene Daniels was mistaken when I first went on Twitter the first time. But it works out. So you're not Junior? You're the second? My dad was very clear he did not want a Junior. I think he knew somebody would go on and go name Junior. And so I had to be the second. Wow. Fans of Junior. I'm a Junior. Fans of Junior. Simone, I want to hear Housewives on the podcast. I want to hear you talking about Housewives. Housewives will be on the podcast. One could argue the controversy in Texas that stemmed from social media is a scheme that Todd set up. To get people to get friends with you. I don't know. All right. We out of here, guys. Thank you for joining us. Simone Cleo says hi. I love Cleo. Yeah, Cleo told me that. She's like, do you know Van? He's from Louisiana. I said, do all y'all Louisiana people know Van? We got a network. We got a network. We got a network. I know this Cleo's house the other day. She got my life together. It's good to see y'all. Good to see y'all, too. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye. All right, Rach, we haven't talked about Crockett and Tallarico that recently. Mm-hmm. Do you have any thoughts as a Texan? I mean, how's this going? I'm seeing a lot of wounds being brought up. Like, people are like, this is identity politics 101. I mean, what I said about Gary. Gary had a video where he talked about Keith Edwards coming on our podcast, and I thought the video was very, very useful. everyone should watch it and follow and listen to Gary Chambers because he talked about the fact that it is lazy to assume that black candidates can't win, particularly if you're not doing the work to turn out black voters and create the voter that you want to support you, right? Yeah. So it's not just about someone saying, oh, Jackson Crockett can't win. Jackson Crockett can't win statewide. This person can't win. Like, what are you doing? Are you taking a Gary Chambers or Stacey Abrams route to awaken those voters that might be either under incentivized because of different factors or a little apathetic to the whole process? You asked me if it's one of those two. Well, that's a side thing. I'm asking you, do you see anything particularly alarming with how that race is going? Well, I guess it goes towards the question that I was asking Eugene, my fellow Texan, is that I know people were thinking a certain way, and I'm not agreeing with him. We discussed it in our conversation. You guys heard about, you know, saying this person is more likely to win. And I thought that his response was so great of like, why are you playing a game with it and not just voting on the person that you believe in, that you want to back who aligns with your with with certain policies and issues that are that you prioritize and that are important to you? That's it should be that at the end of the day, not you trying to say, well, this person has a better chance against this person. That's what it should be. And I felt like. I felt like I was seeing a little of that. it has become, at least to the black people that I have spoken with, I feel a little bit more based in identity. I feel like people are apathetic in saying a Democrat's not going to win anyway, so I might as well vote for this person because I don't like the way that they're being portrayed and stereotyped in the media. And I think that that's problematic too. I do think that that's going on. I think Simone pointed that out very well. That's absolutely happening. The misogynoir of it all. But yeah, I just, I'm seeing people lean more to the identity and to wanting to protect, that I have spoken with, a very small group of people, wanting to protect Jasmine Crockett more than sticking to maybe the things that they were and what motivated them at the beginning of the race. It'll be interesting. I mean, I'm looking at, I was trying to see right now what the polls are saying. I mean, they still have Jasmine, at least this one article from Austin. American Statesman has Jasmine Crockett leading by double digits over Jasmine Tallarico when it comes to the – James Tallarico. Sorry. What did I say? Jasmine Tallarico. James Tallarico when it comes to the Democratic primary. Well, this is what I'll say. once again, we invited James Tallarico to come on the podcast and talk about how he what he said allegedly said I guess he admitted saying it He said it Yeah he pretty much said it We invited him to have the conversation I don't know where they're going to have the conversation. If they don't have the conversation, they're cowards. And let me just say this. I don't believe right now that we should be using identity to shield politicians from accountability or not even from accountability, but from investigation i just said that to simone and eugene i don't believe that we should be doing that however if throughout a primary something is said or something happens that is either insensitive uh racist or um just unwise even within the sphere of blackness and we're talking about our relationships in coalition to black liberals to black students to white liberals to white leftists. I've talked about this before. We talked about this with Tommy Lee. The leftist frame is about class and it's about the class fight and it's about true systemic change that could happen to really benefit the American worker. I'm with that. I'm with that and I am decreasing almost every day in my racial essentialism. I'm broadening it out. However, it is fucking stupid. Now, say this to all the leftists out there. It is fucking stupid. It's ridiculous to try to have a conversation with, be in solidarity with, move with or for black Americans without considering the existence of black Americans. It can't be done. yeah but i'm telling you guys right now it can't be done there's just not enough trust to is the the the frustrating thing is the conversation is what establishes the trust like platner or talarico having the conversation earnestly with people that are going to investigate interrogate the mistakes that they made that is the thing that has to be done so that that solidarity can exist and if you look like you don't want to do it it looks like you don't give a fuck about it and if you don't give a fuck about it fuck you i'm just i'm just i'm just being for real if you if you don't if you don't care enough to even enter into the conversation we could have had a conversation and you could be like all of this is a fucking distraction and it don't matter none of that but i truly feel like and y'all can say what the fuck y'all want to say if you say something that is racially insensitive and you won't even talk about it you won't even address it in a way that to me is like robust then you kind of saying fuck me and everything that my ancestors went through because i'm and it's very difficult for me even as where i'm at politically right now it's difficult for me to get past it because the way i look at it is this and we move on after this the way i look at it is this my ancestors they died so that i could use my voice at a time when using that voice is high leverage yeah They die for that. If I don't use my voice in that time, I'm killing them again. Agreed. Like they died twice. So I hope you don't think that after years and years and years of people getting fucked over so that I can say, hey, what do you mean by that? I hope you don't think I'm not going to do it. And I'm not asking you to exist in any framework of guilt. But I'm saying when you open your hand, there got to be something with that. and I don't understand why people don't understand it I really don't it's not about trying to book guests for the podcast I'm seriously asking the question once again Talarico in the situation I am so I am like so unanimated by the actual race itself I wish the best for her always I wish the best for him you know what no i don't i don't i wish the best for the people that's who i wish the best for i don't give a fuck about her individual political career or his individual political career i care about the people that are subject to power political power in texas and all throughout and if she means the best for them then it's her if he means the best for them then it's him that is what i care about but i just don't think that we're going to be able to get to a point of being able to build trust in these coalition coalitions or even understanding if we can't have talks about this and they don't they want to politic it like they they want to politic it they legitimately they want to try to politic their way out of this type of hurt this type of misunderstanding this type of victimization. You can't do that. You can only talk about it. And they don't really want to do it. It doesn't seem like that to me. I think it's, well, I do care about, I do care about them as politicians because I think that they're both bright, rising young stars within the party. And of course I care about the people. But what I will say, and I think this is the really interesting thing is, you know, more than just focusing on this race in particular and, yes, turning Texas blue, I think that the way that this particular race is being handled is having people look, have a mirror and look at themselves as to what politically motivates them as voters. And I think, and that's kind of, I guess, what I was touching on with Eugene into how people are turning. And this goes on both, this comes from both sides of it, I guess more so when I say both sides, I mean within the party of the James versus Jasmine. It's what is your motivation for voting for Jasmine? I think those are real questions that you have to ask yourself if it's based on identity. And I think with James, that's the exact same question is what is your motivation for him? Are you into voting for someone who just because they're a white male that you think is more easy for Texans to digest and has a better chance of beating Paxton or Cornyn, whoever might win that primary? I think that this race is going to make people really ask themselves, why do I vote for this person? Or you should be, at least. We should be asking ourselves that question. It goes deeper than black versus white, man versus woman. It's as a leftist or a liberal or a Democrat or however you want to say it, what is it that's motivating you? And it shouldn't be the two things that I named when it comes to James and Jasmine. It should be much deeper than that if the goal is to really get the things that we want from a system that is failing us. Right. The things that we want and the things that we're entitled to. We're going to have a squad conversation again. Okay, look. I want Julie K. Brown on the podcast to tell the story of Epstein. But we got to talk about the N-word is back. Donnie? We just talked about it last week. The N-word is back. I did not see him, by the way. Didn't see who? Tep. He wasn't there? He might have been there, but he wasn't going out there. He apologized. He didn't say sorry. On a story. I'm sorry. I saw. Yeah, he saw. Then they was put. Apparently, Ted loved the N-word because he was on a flag football game or something else. He was getting busy with it. After the apology? No, this was before. Okay. Well, we knew he loved it before. Oh, did you see that Drake followed Trump? Is that true? Hey, somebody look that up and see if that's true. It looked like Drake followed Trump. Logan was into that. Yeah. What? I didn't even. I did see that Drake followed Trump. Logan, big trade. Drake fan. No, he's not. You don't like Drake? I don't know the man. Do you like his music? It's not wrong to be a Drake fan. I don't know none of these dudes. Okay, let's take a... Bernard, you fuck with Drake? You like his older music? You like... 9 a.m. in Dallas is one of the most... Provided one of the most formidable moments in my life. Yeah, I got Kendra's now. It's binary. Everybody, like, on the mic, can all y'all are younger can you be a fan of both drake and kendrick yeah okay yes so you can be a fan of both drake and kendrick is the drake following trump's true or is that like erroneous in some sort of way he's not following he's not following trump well was he and did he delete it after the backlash some people were saying that drake maybe became a trump supporter or something like that and then we was some people were saying this is this is that that could be propaganda that's putting out there. There's nothing wrong with being a Drake fan and a Kendrick fan. I don't think so. I like both of their music. What's your favorite Drake song? My favorite Drake song? Yeah, both of y'all. Shit. That says a lot about you. Shit, my favorite Drake song is probably like Paris Moore music. Oh, you was simping then, huh? You was out there doing some real life simping. But he rapping on that bitch. Who's rapping? Drake used to be rapping, man. He's rapping on that bitch. Drake, get busy. what's your favorite uh culture the culture wars i don't know i don't know if i have one oh my god okay what's yours uh i got i got some uh nine a.m in dallas is great um what else uh what was i like club paradise was a really good song like a lot of lucy's i like um yeah man drake got me through some real emotional times in the 2010 2011 era like right after high school so that's tough you know got you through some times got you through some times but that got me through some times too right like adhd was like also around that music there to me is legendary you know like all of that shit is legendary man all like all of that shit like that shit is legendary man that's all i'm gonna say like adhd section 80 high power like high power man rigor mortis bruh like all of them records like that shit is legendary like you listen to that music and as soon as you hear the music you're like oh this nigga different bro i'm just being for real and you know what's funny is you felt the same you said you felt the same way with with so far gone really you listen to so far gone lust for life come on drake is rapping and then he starts singing in the middle of the ball you're like what the fuck is this nigga doing and you're like oh i kind of fuck with this a little bit right so like but like you know i listen to i listen to Kendrick and all of this stuff oh no no money trees is my favorite kids that's that this is legendary can we talk about one more song that was really what's the child about successful oh you fuck with that what you love that you love that record you don't like successful it didn't move me like that however you never mind i'll never ask black woman how old is she is how i was in like law school when that came out oh y'all wasn't really yeah y'all wouldn't in like the train no i remember it was like a big deal we're gonna have to do a whole podcast about these rappers. Let's do it. These rappers is... I don't know, man. I don't know where we stand with these rappers. I like that Logan said. I like that Logan said. Jay is a rapper. Wait, I like that you said we got to have a conversation about these rappers on this podcast. Logan goes, let's do it. Logan already done deemed himself in the seat to have a conversation. Logan ready. Logan party. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. We got to talk. Jay, you know what, Jay? Yeah, Jay, you need to get in on that. Since Jay is a rapper, since Jay, since you are a rapper, we have to have a conversation because listen i'm not gonna get into the whole thing but i do have a thought and i'm crystallizing this thought trying to get it the whole time that we thought that it was hip-hop against the white american power structure we might have been wrong it might have been hip-hop against everyone hip-hop might be an entity that actually only serves hip-hop and i and i and i know that that's difficult but the the more i see all of this stuff man it's getting tough like i like says she doesn't agree i i know and that's why and i could be wrong that's why i'm saying we go but you're gonna have to represent rappers we'll have a yeah we're gonna have to represent rappers and i know the history i know everything that hip-hop is being involved in and all of this stuff but god damn man it seemed like especially right now every time we just need somebody to be like fuck ice they they go to the michael rubin party i'm just saying bro it just seems like we in a moment to where we really Gavin Newsom was there. Gavin. All right, man. A lot of politicians were outside. I bet they were, bro. And, you know, shout out to everybody having a good time. I'm no better than anyone. I swear to God I'll be watching porn. Come on, bro. I'm no better than no one. I promise you. I'm not judging nobody. I'm just saying that, like, could we do the whole thing? Could we do, like, could we do I got to get my money and black people need help and fuck ice can't we do it all together can we do the whole thing you know it seems like at one time we thought that that was a part of it and now it's different I mean Cardi B just said F ice on her last concert she did on her show love it but like I think it's time for us to maybe have a conversation with hip hop and I think I'm going to say this. I think the conversation is kind of already happening right now. Right. I think the biggest the conversation is happening. I think the biggest thing that's happening right now with hip hop is that is just going through this transformation right now. It's not necessarily seen on the charts, but hip hop is is basically what the community is talking about at a given moment in time. Right. There's and it goes in waves. Right. You got the shiny shoe era and that gives way to another era, which births like Kendrick, Drake and J. coal and then they flourish and they get hella corporate and then the system breaks down and it comes back up like that's just how it goes it's a cyclical thing right now this is what i mean we move on to apology rate we end the show this is what i mean though so and once again i haven't really thought this out in a real way about what i actually mean okay so when i was growing up as a kid in the 90s there was an understanding of a couple of things number one it was hard to be a young black male in society i'm saying young black male because that was the focus of the ire of of hip-hop at that time nobody was coming out and going like we got to stop queen latifah uh queen latifah was one of the greatest rappers ever but no one was coming out and saying what the the question was these particularly young men from these places and how their visions and views of where they come from how that was going to influence american youth and whether or not that was going to incept something into american youth and culturally not there were there were people who spoke out right like see the lord stucker calvin buzz all these people like that like that the rappers was going against them but culturally we culturally we protected them we We protected them, number one, because, you know, we know the choice matries that young brothers have in the community. And we know that there's a lot of good brothers out there doing things that are not great. And we're not trying to throw them away. And we really not. We're not trying to throw them away. I'm not trying to throw them away now. We get that. But there might have been something that happened. are really well-meaning and sincere want to protect them might have done the same thing that i'm talking about was done for these politicians it might have insulated them from actually feeling like they owe anything at all it might have made it about well I can say anything do anything act anyway be completely amongst my own and not be a part of whatever y'all niggas got going on because that is my right and I deserve that and I came from a fucked up place so I deserve all the trappings of my wealth and fame and all of that stuff like that so by the time we got to a conversation about trying to have you know community with people who we've empowered like that then it was kind of like you can't do anything to stop my art you can't do anything to stop my expression you can't now you're just like the white people in the 90s that was telling me what i should and should not say i'm not ever trying to tell a rapper what they should and should not say but if we are in community with one another shouldn't we be able to talk about what we should and should not do is that okay because i'm willing to have that conversation about me all the time people like just like give me some tighten up so shouldn't we be able to have a conversation about in this situation right now why kanye became a nazi nikki minaj nikki minaj became a puppet why all of this stuff you like all of these guys are vaguely fucking with this administration that is like overtly authoritarian and you can't tell them nothing like you can't right like you like you you you literally just trying to have a conversation you can't tell them nothing because they don't fucking feel like they owe you anything like they owe each other but not anything to the wider community that gave them these big cultural weapons i don't really know it just it's i'm an old nigga i'm old that that is what this conversation is actually i am old okay we should be able to have these conversations, and it should be a bigger conversation. We talked about this on the podcast before. It has nothing to do with you being old. It's with you caring. That's really what it comes down to. I'm old. You know what? Can we get to... You know what? Y'all, fuck that shit. Y'all niggas don't listen to that. Man, fuck that shit. What? Dude, fuck what I'm talking about. Old ass... Donnie. Donnie. Donnie. Two hours. Fuck that nigga. Can we get to that band? HGTV's Rehab Addict has officially been canceled after its host, Nicole Curtis, was caught using a racial slur in a brand new way. Let's hear it. Why? It's my last one. Oh, fart nigger. What the fuck is that? I said it just said, Nick, you got it. Can you kill that? No, I don't know if I admit it. I thought it was real. Oh, fuck my life. Publicity stunt. Rachel, go ahead. She lost her show. It's a publicity stunt. It's a publicity stunt. I don't see how this happened. What's the... Okay, if it is a publicity stunt, then how does she benefit from this? Help me understand. It's a publicity stunt. I don't know what happened. So you don't have a reason as to how this happened? Where's the video? How did this video get out? I guess it was a behind... I guess it was... How do other videos get out? What I'm asking is, did somebody... It's from Radar. Radar exclusively obtained this footage. Oh, so Radar got the footage. Yeah. So somebody taped it. It was taped, and she said, kind of, what did you think? Why did you think it was a publicity stunt? Because I do think that there's some currency right now in saying the N-word. Listen, if she wants a whole career path change, fine. If she wants to be like old girl who was on TikTok and was saying the N-word and, like, repeating on it, and then she's on Piers Morgan and whatever and, you know, all that stuff, that didn't work out so well for her. It would be hard for me to imagine that this woman who's on HGTV, Rehab Addicts, I don't know how many seasons the show's been on. I guess it's a popular show there. It's been on for several seasons. The host of the show, to throw it all away over this, I find that hard to believe. I mean, they canceled it, as they should, in response to her. I've never even heard those two words together before. Interesting. Have you? no i mean once again yeah no that sounds like a term that she says all the time because i've never heard that before like i guess you still think it's a publicity stunt i'm trying to understand the benefit of it i mean i honestly i'm starting to get skeptical about all of this shit okay i think what ted did was a publicity stunt how he's on streaming using the n-word doesn't that happen i'm not a streamer but don't people do that on the game all the time he's not the first will be the last i understand what i'm saying is that like i so okay let me tell you why and then this is a conspiracy theory it's not it's not a conspiracy theory but sometimes having worked in this area or arena people do scandalous shit to like generate headlines of course yeah now with her it is very true that she lost her show maybe she didn't think that was gonna happen i never heard of her till now yeah we don't watch that so so like it it um so to me stuff like this sometimes to me maybe not this maybe i could be wrong once again i'm wrong i'm wrong a lot maybe maybe this is not that but i don't know man just fart nigger the way she said it it didn't it seemed like some shit that she wanted i don't know man it doesn't seem like she wanted it. Listen, this is what I took from this. Don't know her. Never heard of her. Not even going to make the do the research to really understand who Nicole Curtis is. She could be walking down the street from here on out. I'm never going to know who she is. I don't watch the show Rehab Addict. I don't agree with you that this is a publicity stunt. And to use your phrase, and I'll tell you why. Immediately after she said it, she asked them to cut it. She asked them if they could get rid of this, this footage. That tells me right there and the terminology that she used, fart, nigger. I've never heard those two words together. And her immediate response wasn't, oh my God, I'm so sorry I said that. I can't believe it. I apologize to everybody in the room. It was, can we kill that? Can we get rid of that? Can we cover it up? So one, she uses this term all the time. She uses this term. She has put those two words together. It is a part of her vocabulary. It is a part of her being of who she is. Two, her immediate thought was, how do I cover this up so nobody can see the type of person that I really am? And that did not work well for her. We now know who she is. We now know what she's about. And she now lost her job. She posted an apology she sent to TMZ. It's three paragraphs. I don't care. that's where I am with this n-word I don't care I don't care you're not sorry you say it again you say it you're sorry until you got caught you're sorry for the 15 seconds that we have to acknowledge your apology and then you're right back to where you were before like I wouldn't be shocked you say it's a publicity stunt I wouldn't be shocked then if she has a YouTube show called Fart Nigger Tony I think the n-word could be looked at as the new leak in your news. Something that you do when you want to look edgy, when you want people to talk about you. This is stuff that I know about. I could be wrong about this. Name one person who's said the N-word and then has built it was so edgy and so provocative and it gets the people going that they have success from this. Lindsey Lilligatis. That's who I was talking about. She hasn't though. Didn't she renege and like now she regrets at all well what i'm saying is she reneged she worked she nicked then she reneged you can only make once really you can't renege okay yeah if you're gonna dig she's on back nick well i don't like if you're gonna nick just a nick she was popular for literally 15 minutes but what i'm saying is that like now this whole conversation edgy bullshit whatever the fuck maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I just, I don't care that much about this. I did come up with several songs. That what? That surrounded this. Okay. Because there's a song with no limit called Swamp Nigga. Oh, okay. And you could just change it to Fart Nigga. Okay. It's very funny. Okay. I fucking laughed about it. I was this morning in the shower. I almost couldn't finish because like, finish the shower because I'm in there. Yeah, I was like, finish the sentence. Yeah. please you were talking about I need you to complete that sentence but you know it's funny you like the term you like it it's funny to you first of all what does it mean I have no idea I'm not about to get up and be mad about this though I'm annoyed I'm annoyed by this. It's like, I'm not, you know. It's not that I'm saying. I'll be honest. I don't care. I don't care. Let them all say it. No, that's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying let them all say it. I'm not saying that. You say it. You got to get your ass kicked. We got to maintain guardrails. I'm not saying that at all. But what I am saying is I saw this and I was like, ah, she's fucked. And then I was thinking, did she do that on purpose? But you've made the point. Maybe she didn't do it on purpose. It's not going to go well for her. You don't think that she's not now? Okay, this is what we'll do. If she did a GoFundMe, yeah, she'll get money. That's fair. It's two different people between her and Lily. This is what we'll do. What we'll do is we'll watch to see how the Fart Nigger saga plays itself out. We're on Fart Nigger Watch. We're on Fart Nigger Watch. And so if she ends up getting a three-picture deal, a three-season order on Fox Nation, the fart nigger rehab show if she ends up really coming up from it if she does the whole circuit if she on Good Morning America and if she on Hannity if she sits down with Megyn Kelly if she does all of this stuff I'm going to start to think that I was right about the entire fart nigger situation that's how it's going to look to me if she does a whole press run off of it but if she just gets low she turned the comments off She turned the comments off. I was thinking about writing it on one of her. How many followers does she have? 328,000. Oh, so she's not even popping like that, man. She definitely did it on purpose. She turned her comments off. She don't even want people. Let's just forget. I really was going to write fart nigga on her page. Send her a DM. Send her a fart nigga DM. Everybody DM her fart nigga. If you listen to the podcast right now, what's her at? Detroit Design. Detroit Design? At Detroit Design. everyone right now everybody right now send her a dm and just say fart nigga you see it let her know that she's got to see us she can't erase us okay she's got to see us all right apology rating for her she she apologize what you got we're doing that she is she said it's a zero zero how would you like her be her and give the right apology for fart nigga like what would you do that was tough because she clearly is like can we kill it right i guess i would say no i'm not gonna give them anything give give her no racial see this is the thing no i don't want to tell her what you should like imagine somebody says and they use my apology i'm not trying to help you out you're not sorry i'm not gonna help you be sorry i'm not going to help you find your way what would she do she this is an apology regarding hgtv i'm grateful oh my bad there's more to this but my family you know fuck it what could be more where did she say there's more to this she says there's more to this but my family comes first and i need to be mom right now more than anything else i i would take the time as i always have been with you transparent and honest tmz called me as i had just turned my phone on after being at school and i said this briefly but there's more what she's going to say is that there's somebody on the production that doesn't like her or that the show is out to get her hgtv maybe she's beefing with the people in waco because they got their own shows maybe it's beef what about them they're gonna say i like them actually um no they they are their names i'm like chip chip and joanna chip and joanna from waco yeah what's going on with them um i don't know i don't really follow this this world but no what she'll come out and say is you guys didn't see the whole video you didn't see the part where I was profusely apologizing and I was begging them you know like don't put this out there because this could hurt so many people this isn't a representation but you missed the part where I was crying and I was so upset because in that video somebody's laughing in the background she's kind of fun she's like did I just say that yeah bitch you said that and you've said it again you're trying to throw hands fart niggas I will say this makes me think about her in work out what is it if she's just saying fart nigger if she's just saying fart nigger uh just like that like when she like think about just saying the word nigger when you do something like yeah that's that's in her vocabulary yeah you just bang your foot fart nigger you just like fart nigger that tells me that she's in the mark walberg hall of fame i i she used to that as a what an adjective so you know what we're gonna call it if somebody's in the Mark Wahlberg Hall of Fame we're gonna say that they are amongst the departed that's the name of that shit they the departed she's in the departed with Mark Wahlberg and you know other Nick Kid Rock and that bitch like there's a lot of people that's probably up there in that situation so good for her Nicole Curtis we'll see what happens we'll continue to watch the story Donnie we gonna continue to watch the story I'm out of it but y'all can Logan yes tell people they can find you you can find me twice a week on real ones on the Ringer NBA show Tuesday and Friday you can find me at the LA Convention Center on Saturday if you want to say what's up and you might be able to find me at a Van Illuminati party on Friday I'm kind of scared I'm not going to lie but you know Carl Cherry invited me to the party. I don't know what that is. Carl Cherry, you're the music guy. He went right back. Okay, okay, okay. Oh, is that his name? Carl Cherry, yeah. Okay. That's something different. Illuminati nonetheless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carl didn't invite me, but that's okay. I didn't know his name, so that's fair. Yeah, you don't even remember who he was. I knew him by face. You know him by face? I know my face. Guys, last day to vote for the NAACP Image Awards, nominated four times. Hell no. This is our year. This is it. Help us make it happen. If you've already voted, send it off to somebody else. Get them to vote. I think we deserve it. We're proud of what we do here. Oh, shit. Don is in our category. Never mind. I didn't realize he was in two categories, though, I think. But, damn, Don is a martyr. He's going to win. You know he has a speech already ready. call him and ask him if he has his speech ready I would be surprised if Don answers the phone I would be surprised if they didn't just give the award to Don tell him we're in the same category and ask him if he already has his speech ready I think Don knows what's up Don gonna win man Don gonna win and you guys what the fuck let's see if he answers the phone let's see if we can get Don Lemon to pick up the phone he's ringing hell nah nope crazy crazy man crazy crazy oh I got a text though let's see oh can I call you later yes Don yes Don fucking Lemon yes he acknowledged the call Don Lemon you guys seriously all jokes aside I'm going to say this before we go. I'm very proud of what Don Lemon has been able to do. Of course. Like very proud of the fact that Don Lemon that journalism that you guys saw in that church no matter what the fuck the administration says is some of the best journalism I've seen going in there covering stories like that. Reinventing himself. Owning it. Doing his whole thing. Is worth everything that he's getting. You know. We're from two different worlds. You know. from Baton Rouge, but still from two different worlds. Two different worlds. The hoodie and the suit. It's two different things, but at the same time, I got a lot of respect for the way he's comported himself when he's been under attack by the administration. Okay, we out of here. Thanks to Logan. Thanks to Donnie. Thanks to CT. Thanks to Jay. Thanks to Bernard. Take your team caps off with The Not Stop Learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys. Thank you.